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Life throws darkness but Mending Lives ignites the light within. Listen to people willing to share their real-life stories of coping with significant loss. Through inspiring conversations and a touch of spirituality, we explore themes of resilience, adversity and grief.
Jane_Houng: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jane Hong, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, some are in the business of repairing others brokenness, but we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful.
A. S. King has been called one of the best YA writers working today by the New York Times Book Review. In 2022, she received the Margaret A. Edwards Award for her significant and lasting contribution to young adult literature. And last year she accepted the Allen Award for her Outstanding Contributions to the Field of Adolescent Literature.
Amy is the author of numerous highly acclaimed novels. She also writes middle grade fiction as Amy Sarig King, including Attack of the Black Rectangles, which won the Carla Cohen [00:01:00] Free Speech Award last year. More recently, she's edited an anthology of weird stories called The Collectors, which won the Michael L. Prince Award, and will release a new YA novel, Pick the Lock, this autumn. Amy was a faculty member of the Writing for Children and Young Adults MFA program at Vermont College of Fine Arts when I first met her. Since then, we share the common experience of losing a daughter. Like me, she seeks to keep her child's name alive through charity.
She's currently fundraising for the creation of a summer camp for LGBTQ plus youth called Gracie's House. You can find the link in the show notes.
Jane_Houng: Amy, it goes without saying that it's so awesome that you're here as part of the Rebecca Dykes Writers Faculty for this year's Writing Through Trauma Retreat here at Highlights in Pennsylvania. But you live here, right? I mean, not at Highlights, but nearby.
Amy King: I live about three hours south, yeah, and I'm surprised. This is my first time to Highlights and I am in love. I've been here less than 24 hours and I'm in love. Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Jane_Houng: Oh, come on. I look, I'm blown away because we should explain to our listeners that you gave this extraordinary presentation this morning. Um, dreams, memories, and automatism.
Is that how pronounce it? Automatism.
Amy King: Right. Yeah. Automat. Yeah. Yes.
Jane_Houng: So many pieces of my jigsaw, or my bubble, whatever you want to call it, have [00:03:00] coalesced in so many of the things you said. And, um, we are a universe. Um, I need some time to process all this, because it was only a couple of hours ago. But, how did you think it went?
Amy King: Well, you know, like when you give a talk, you're like, I hope it went well. I hope I didn't, you know, um, I tend to talk on different layers at the same time, so I'm always like, I hope they, you know, they meshed, uh, but to be able to openly express what I feel, this is the first time I've really talked about being a universe.
It's the first time I ever talked about, um, talking to psychics and intuitives and things like this, um, which is, uh, which connects to my trauma, right? So I felt like very comfortable to be there. Thrilled to share this and hoping I suppose that no one thought I was a kook after I said that but also not caring if they did, you know, um, but, but for me, [00:04:00] I don't know, it felt very empowering
Jane_Houng: As a bereaved mother. I, resonate with that idea that I'm fearless. I'm more and more fearless as, as, as time goes on as well. What the hell woo or what?
Amy King: Right, I recently had someone say to me, Oh, well, I, I, I did this thing, which caused, you know, it was, it was dumb. It was an academic academia thing, but, Oh, I did this thing because I could tell you were worried about blsh blah blah, and I, I, I get it.
I gave it about four weeks And I read the letter again and I realized what her mistake was is that she thought I was worried. And I wrote back to her and I said no I believe you got the wrong end of the stick there. You thought I got the wrong end of the stick but for you to think that I was worried. I don't worry...
Jane_Houng: about What telling what happened?
Amy King: I don't know. I just I just don't worry sharing. Yeah, especially with this. This is academia This is something small. This was something that's that's that's not uh, you know, unless it has something to do with my my surviving son Um, I or my or my parents say, you know, I I don't worry It's it's like you said, it's it's a fearlessness.
It's a [00:05:00] it's a It's a power that that that it's a it's a strange power that comes with with terrible tragedy
Jane_Houng: with terrible tragedy.
Amy King: Yeah
Jane_Houng: terrible loss.
Amy King: Yeah,
Jane_Houng: I had to give my presentation last night and I and I had to I had to Um reveal that I think it's one of the hardest things i've done since my terrible loss Um, and I and I thought well, why is it why is it and then it was partly the joy of seeing you again after 10 years and Jess, of course um But also there's that There was that joint experience that it's happened to us since all this terrible stuff.
10 years ago, you and I were sitting back in the meadow at the end of graduation and chilling and things. And then, so in my mind, it's like a wall. It's just like what happened before and what [00:06:00] happened afterwards. And I just see things so differently.
Amy King: Yeah, yeah, you know, and then the way that's what I was talking about this morning was sort of like that prescient um Like, you know if I knew this was going to happen if I knew I was going to lose my daughter I'd have done everything I could right to have stopped that so I didn't know that was going to happen. But but when it happened It was the oddest thing, you know, it was tragic and terrible and it was oh, how did that happen? Oh, that happened. Yes. Yes, of course it did. I don't understand how that acceptance came to me, and I don't think it came to me quickly. I only see it from here now, five and a half, or five, you know, five years, four months later.
Jane_Houng: We're about the same, about five and a half years.
Amy King: Right, yeah, exactly. So it's sort of, you know, everything does change. And, and I, we talked last night about how, you know, I go, oh, when did that happen? You know, uh, anything. Pick anything. And you go, when did that happen? Was that before or after Gracie died? And everything sort of [00:07:00] does rely, like, time, a certain time stopped when Gracie died. And I'm assuming it's the same with Becky. A clock stopped. And a new clock started. And so it's a little bit like doing math when your, when your loved one is in Australia, it's like, or like you, I mean, when I'm trying to figure out what are you 12 hours behind?
Jane_Houng: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy King: It's like, it's like doing time zone math really. Isn't it afterward. And so, but emotion on an emotional level, is that
Jane_Houng: absolutely. And then, you know, you said in the presentation today, time is just a construct. And, um, Yeah, it's very human, isn't it? And there's this idea of the kind of history, historical time, and then there's a universal time. We're part of the universe. I mean, let's go a little woo woo, because, you know, you were talking about psychics and shamans and things. Yeah. And there's one thing that I have to I have to question, let's say, is that as a [00:08:00] result of losing my own daughter, there have been so many synchronicities, so many miracles, if you like. Um, and also, the things that happened before, look at, upon reflection, were kind of preparing me, does that make sense?
Amy King: Yes. That's that's part of it. I mean I was talking this morning about dreams I had when I was four and five years old that prepared me for Gracie's death and in detail which I'm not going to share here, but it's certain details that could it I there was no other reason that I was having those dreams at four years old. That's when I really had to stop and go. All right, I'm tired of the specifically Western cultural idea that magic doesn't exist. In fact magic does exist or whatever. We want to call that that you said whoo whoo. Whatever the word is it it's those words were all given to us for actually. For us to [00:09:00] underestimate ourselves...
Jane_Houng: to understand, underestimate.
Amy King: Yeah.
Jane_Houng: Yeah. Let's go on to that in a minute.
Amy King: Yeah. Like we underestimate ourselves. Like we're only human. Ah, you're only human. Actually, no. I'm, um, I'm the stars, actually. I'm Jupiter, actually. Actually, I'm the roots of that tree out there that goes so far down and are mourning the dead trees around it from, from, from a decade ago. I'm all those things because if trees can talk to each other underground, Yep. Then why do we think we're so, uh, isolated and, and, um, and contrived and that's what modern society tells us. This is why I don't watch television. This is why I live in a bubble because all of that is absolute rubbish. And, and what's real is that the trees talk to each other underground.
Jane_Houng: And that's been proven scientifically
Amy King: Absolutely.
Jane_Houng: And also, about time. I mean, Albert Einstein, right? I mean, one re one thing that I reasoned about when psychics told me things that, if they're true, only she and he could have known. And in the forensic [00:10:00] evidence, it came out that it was correct. I kind of, I think from a scientific background, I think, well, somewhere in, in this universe, time bends somewhere Becky's still alive. Actually and this event hasn't happened. Correct. And that's maybe what, where psychics get their power from. I mean, have you sort of reasoned in that way at all or
Amy King: I, uh, yes. I mean, it's interesting. It's dimensions, I suppose. I'm not fully, like, I can't quite grasp that again, where I, for me, I, I was raised in a Western tradition, luckily not really religious, so I didn't have anything strict. That was going to stop me from, from becoming more cosmic, we'll say, but, um, her energy, I think that's the best way I put it, that her, her energy and her energy was so big. Like her energy was, was, was giant. Um, and bright, very bright. And so it's always here. And then as, like, as the five years have progressed, You [00:11:00] know, I know where she is. She's, you know, behind me to the left. She's never, you know, behind me to the right. She's never directly to my left. She's always in the same sort of space. Um, I don't know how to explain that. I just feel the energy there
Jane_Houng: and you know it. And, and, and you shared a story about you with, with a psychic and she said, yeah, there, there's Gracie.
Amy King: There she is.
Jane_Houng: There she is. And I shared my experience of being in Bali.
Amy King: Yeah.
Jane_Houng: And when I was accompanying a, a woman with, uh stage 3 breast cancer who alas has since died, but I was a complete stranger. It was her session It was healing and this healer looked over to where I was sitting while he was kind of rubbing her leg and rolling these various potions on her body and he looked over and he said your daughter is with our father. I'm like WHAT? And then he, and then he said it again with an emphasis on our, and then I thought, Oh, wow, God, energy, some kind of power. So I was just so surprised, but in respect of my friend, [00:12:00] you know, she continued doing this and that. And then right at the end, he kind of went, he looked over again, he said, Oh, I see your daughter and she's telling me something. She's telling me, she's telling me, take care of her sister. And. For me, of all the, my crazy life and all the things I do, um, about last year, the, the thing that gives such joy and, uh, I shouldn't be saying this because my daughter might be listening, but we've reconnected, you know, and she's so fragile and I'm fragile, but somehow we know that we need each other. Call it energy, call it shared experience. I don't know, but it's very profound and very, very important to me.
Amy King: It is. I can only imagine. And I mean, it's, it's, uh, my experiences with intuitives and psychics since Gracie died has been varied, um, [00:13:00] and mind blowing. I've had things said to me that are, no one else would know, um, and, Yeah, just more than one time, you know, I sat down i'm always skeptic I always sit down like a good German skeptic. I don't tell them a thing. And um, even if you know now, of course my story's out there, you know you can find it if you go to my social media, but I don't think they did that. But even if they did I've had people tell my actually Gracie's birth story. Gracie talked to me about her birth through someone once and no one else would know that story. No one. Um, and so It's fascinating to, cause if you have, how do I say that? If you can believe that, if you have to, I had to change my mind to believe. And then I thought, well, if that's possible. For that person why is it not possible for me? And it's always been possible for me if I had these dreams when I was four years old well then that means that I have visions too. [00:14:00] They just came in a different way and you can't say that to a person on the street because they've been taught in this in this finite culture that this is this is how things are when in actual fact the world is far more the universe is far bigger. Then then just a bunch of stars and galaxies and all this we are
Jane_Houng: We are the universe and maybe for our listeners we should explain that a little bit more because you just you. Let me just uh summarize very shortly what the extraordinary things you said this morning, but I mean that dreams are really really significant. I mean the dreams we remember. Memories are tricky and, um, one thing I kind of intuited about that is that it's the memories that keep back are the ones that are bugging you. Some things happen there that you haven't resolved and at a conscious level. Yeah? Would you agree?
Amy King: Yeah, I would, yeah.
Jane_Houng: And then this idea about automatism, you know, that actually when you're in the flow as a writer, it just gushes. And it comes from nowhere and it's not [00:15:00] coherent often, but there is a strange logic and, and look, you, you're absolutely prolific.
Amy King: Yeah, I am. Yeah, I was just saying, I was saying to you right when I got here before we recorded this, I had just opened my computer and I, I opened up a poem and I, I started a poem years ago. Um, and it's an epic poem, so it's a long one, uh, with lots of chapters and I hadn't read it in maybe a year and it's the piece I'm working on while I'm here and it is, uh, Stunning. It's stunning. I've only gotten to maybe page four, but it's funny because most of it was written automatically. Uh, so, um, so there's suddenly there's a, there's a boat, there's a tugboat. I just got to the place. So it's telling a story, but it's also, I don't know where the story is going, but it keeps, I don't know, backing up on itself or repeating on itself. Um, and then. You get the payoff in the end of what it meant because it comes back, you know, to, well, usually to love when it comes to Gracie, right?
Jane_Houng: Oh, there we go.
Amy King: You know, [00:16:00] yeah.
Jane_Houng: Loaded.
Amy King: Yeah. It comes forward. That's it. And in so many ways, you know, her love, cause she, you know, she was in love when she died. And, um, you know, I still see, I still see, um, her boyfriend very often. Actually, we, we are.
Jane_Houng: How's he doing?
Amy King: He's okay. Um, he and, uh, one of her best friends are now married. And so they call me their extra mother in law. So I get to, we actually go to, we do trivia with both sets of in laws and me. And so we, you know, we've all accepted that. It's, it's, it's, it's wonderful. It's sad, but I'm thrilled that they found each other and they are together in that way. But I get to call them my son and daughter in law, which is lovely. You know
Jane_Houng: Becky had a boyfriend too and, um, he was really keen on her and he was, um, completely devastated because they'd kind of, because she'd moved to lebanon and uh, you know, she'd put her career first. So in other words, she spurned him a little bit. So when it happened, he was he was just beside himself. [00:17:00] And I think one thing that's kept me strong is for Becky's friends I mean Becky was 30. Wow, little Gracie was 16.
Amy King: Yeah 16. Yeah
Jane_Houng: Yeah They're friends, I mean We have a tough time. Okay, we're mothers, but I mean, for young people, how, I mean, if, for me, if I crash and burn, then it's, it can be just such a negative, um, impact in their lives. So to the contrary, I write them cards. I send them happy birthday. I try to keep in touch. And some sweethearts still write to me every year, um, telling, updating me about their lives. And most of them have got married, they've got babies, all these things. And there's that kind of bitter bittersweet thing isn't it? But at the same time Isn't life beautiful because yeah life is going on.
Amy King: Yeah. No, it is. It's funny the first stanza of that poem I was just talking about is um, I think it says I have become my own grandchildren And that's what the whole poem's [00:18:00] about is what Gracie named this grandchild and how I am the grandchild but also the grandmother and that I watch the grandchild on every monday. And I can't remember is it monday and saturday nights or something like this? And it's just It's manic almost. It's manic and it's joy and it's pain. And, and
Jane_Houng: No, wait a minute. Grace is in the poem.
Amy King: Grace is in the poem. Kind of. I mean, yeah, it's called The Goddess of What Matters. And I mean she is the goddess of what matters. Um, and so Um, she can't have grandchildren. She can't give me grandchildren. She can't have children. So I became my grandchildren in service to her but also in service to myself and it's all very strange. And it's funny enough because actually it's actually related Jane and no one knows this to a bunch of aloe vera plants in my house um when Gracie died Um, we have a house that my ex husband and I lived on the top floor in the attic, which is now my office Um, but on the second floor there were really only two bedrooms. And so that was the kids It was it was Gracie and Jackson and her brother and so when Gracie [00:19:00] died we all slept in the living room for a while because it was very traumatic and it was winter and we had the fire lit and eventually my hips couldn't handle the futon anymore. And I finally said
Jane_Houng: Enough
Amy King: I said, look, it's been three weeks. This is dismal. Uh, Jackson, you need more sleep. Uh, you know, you need to get, you know, he was going back to school, but he was, he was wrecked, you know? And so, um, so we went, so we went upstairs. I said, this is what we're going to have to do. Uh, because he could sleep on that floor on his own. Of course not. He was 11 years old. And so I said, we're going to have to clear out Gracie's room, switch it, put all her stuff upstairs, move our, paint it, move in. So we did. And when we moved her stuff upstairs, I did not know that my ex husband, I didn't know at the time, because he was taking care of this part, and it was part of his healing and yeah, you know part of what he was doing as well. Whatever was helping him I hope. But he moved her things into this one little attic which of course our attics get cold and very hot depending on the the. It was winter so it was very cold and he moved in [00:20:00] there her aloe her aloe vera plant. And it was in that attic for six and a half months.
Jane_Houng: No water.
Amy King: No water. No light. Freezing cold and then hot in july. We pulled it out. And I've been nurturing it ever since. It lived through that. It is now enormous and has had so many babies. And so the first baby is named Eva. Just like the baby in the poem and so I now have this entire family Of aloe vera plants around me which shows you that sometimes you do go a little bit crazy. When you're a bereaved mom, but at the same time, you know, uh, whatever I mean and and.
Jane_Houng: Whatever you've written an epic poem and you you even you think it's fab.
Amy King: Right. And I don't, I don't know if it still exists, but I, I kept Eva, I kept the first baby, but then, uh, and I kept the second, I, I can't remember, but there were two more babies that came out at that point. And then at Christmas I did give it to my ex-husband. I don't know if he was able to treasure it the way I treasure those Avera. But I hope, I hope he has. I hope he growing it. Why it to [00:21:00] why do I, uh, after all I've been through with him? Mm. Because I still absolutely am sorry for his loss.
Jane_Houng: Oh.
Amy King: Because I'm, I'm a walking heart. And that's why I was in that relationship for so long and gave so much and loved so much. I, it was over in the first three years, but I gave an extra 26 years because I wished and hoped and hoped I could help. I don't know. It was such a complicated relationship. But I gave it to him because it's his child. It's his grandchild too. He just doesn't know about the poem. So, you know, um, but I hope, I hope he's.
Jane_Houng: Dear Amy. Oh yeah. Well, I noticed in one of your Twitter bios recently, you said if there was a one sentence, a one, a one liner about me, it's be, I peddle in empathy.
Amy King: I peddle empathy. Yeah. Yeah.
Jane_Houng: Yeah. And do you think that come from your loss or was it always there? It sounds like it was always.
Amy King: It was. Yeah I [00:22:00] was always like this. I mean part of it is probably because I you know my background um since birth there there are mysterious things in there that are not mysterious to me anymore now that I trust my gut more but I think um I had a relative recently say to me, she had a few wine, she had a few glasses of wine in her and, um, glasses of wine. And she said, you know, this is going to sound terrible, but Amy, you were just an afterthought. And she said, I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings. And I looked at her and I said, do you not think I know that? Like, of course I know that. Like, but also. I made, I, I am the most incredible lemonade maker. I make lemonade out of everything. And so for me, being an afterthought meant I had more time on my own. That meant that I could write weird things. It meant I [00:23:00] could do weird things. It meant I could, I could smoke cigarettes when I was ten years old. You know, it meant, Look, no one's paying attention to me. Brilliant. I'm going to go to the cornfield and have a fag. Like, you know, like it was, it was.
Jane_Houng: Give you freedom.
Amy King: Yeah. It sounds terrible, but people would say, Oh, that's neglectful. No, no, no. My parents were not in any way neglectful. No way. Were they neglectful to me? They were brilliant parents, but they were busy and I took advantage of that.
Jane_Houng: I'm sure you did.
Amy King: Yeah.
Jane_Houng: Let's go back to the third topic of your presentation today. You are the universe. Can you unpack that a bit for our listeners? Cause yeah, it's all about bubbles by the way.
Amy King: Well, you know, I live in a bubble Jane and I long before Gracie died, I lived in a bubble. Um, meaning I don't watch television. I think. Um, I think, I remember coming back from Ireland, I moved to Ireland in, uh, 90, uh, I think 93, and, or 94, shoot, whatever, um, but it was right around, um, two things were happening at that time, there was really not any [00:24:00] 24 hour news. It's kind of with the tickers at the bottom and all the constant news that they keep repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating, which to me always felt like, um, like a strange evangelism.
Jane_Houng: It's become like an obsession for so many, hasn't it? Everyone's checking in for the headlines.
Amy King: It's propaganda that, that it's, it's a brainwashing technique that has worked 100 percent on the people it's worked for. Um, but then there was also no, um, you weren't allowed to have pharmaceutical commercials. They were outlawed here. And so I'd gone to Ireland and I came back to visit my folks and suddenly it was constant news and constant pharmaceutical commercials. And, and I thought, this is strange. And, and, and if I can, if I can draw a picture of what my brain thought at that moment. That is exactly what America has become. It's become this sort of place where everyone is sort of addicted to the news, and the news is propaganda. And to deal with the propaganda and the, the um, the manufactured, [00:25:00] uh, manufactured everything. Emotions, uh, Manufactured rage, manufactured, uh, concern. Oh, we have to save the children from the books, Jane. And that kind of like all these things. And so now we need pharmaceuticals to be able to handle our anxiety because our children are reading about slavery or.
Jane_Houng: Take more pills.
Amy King: Right, right, right. And all of this. And it's just like, wow. You know, um, it's, it's so you are,
Jane_Houng: that's outside the bubble.
Amy King: We have all outside the bubble because for me, I don't. So, so I keep my bubble clean. I don't want any of that in there. Um, I don't want, um, any negativity in there, even though I'm a human being, and every human being has parts of that, you know, parts of negativity. I can handle honesty without making it negative. I can handle bad things without making it about me, if that makes sense. Um, so, being, being a universe just means that, um, you need to be, we are taught, from birth to not trust [00:26:00] ourselves, to be small, to not be creative, to not be vocal, um, to not be smart. Um, and in so doing we are quiet. We don't trust ourselves. Sometimes we don't trust our own memories when it comes to trauma, when it comes to mending lives, when it comes to mending ourselves. Um, you know, you can't do that unless you trust your own experience. And as a survivor of a great many things in my life, I, you know, I looked at things like when we think about, um. Women who, who, uh, I think back to Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas, a strange thing to say and very American when it comes to the landscape. But I remember when she came forward and said, this man sexually harassed me at work and had all the, had all the stories and people were like, no, she's lying. Now, first of all, why would she jeopardize her entire life and career to do this? [00:27:00] There's no reason, but the bottom line is that no one goes into that sense place because they have this propaganda and all these talking heads telling them what to think. And I never listen to anyone who told me what to think. So in that, in that bubble, you are your own universe. You can make your own space. For me, since I lost Gracie, I've had another bereaved mom say to me, um, since she lost her child to suicide the same as I lost Gracie, That we have a carefully curated bubble. I need a trauma informed bubble I don't allow people or things inside my bubble who are going to make me annoyed even just even slide. I mean look life's annoying enough I have to I now have to scan my own groceries and they're still twice as expensive as they should be and there's no employees I'm so confused. And so, you know. The the you the you are universe is really about trusting yourself knowing that when you have ideas over and over again, or visions or dreams or, or, um, [00:28:00] gut feelings, that those probably have roots in something and that your job, if it keeps showing up, is to try to
Jane_Houng: excavate that.
Amy King: You got it. . And, and in a safe space and that universe is, is a safe space. As a writer, for me, I feel very safe in my bubble. I write from inside my bubble. It's a safe cozy place where if I have to talk about tough stuff.
Jane_Houng: You just do.
Amy King: I do.
Jane_Houng: Even at schools. I mean, there's so much stuff going on. I know because I follow you on social media that you feel very strongly about in terms of teenagers.
Amy King: Yes.
Jane_Houng: In the US and many other countries as well. Yes, I suppose. But I mean, we're talking about the US.
Amy King: US.
Jane_Houng: You talk about the teenagers. What, tell me about, remind me that the, the theme of your doctorate.
Amy King: Oh, right, yeah. It's decoding, it's decoding trauma, trauma, um, with surrealism, uh, and how the work of A.S. King, um, offers validations to
Jane_Houng: [00:29:00] in a sea of devaluation.
Amy King: There you go, in a sea of devaluation.
Jane_Houng: And you're talking about teenagers.
Amy King: Teenagers are devalued constantly as country.
Jane_Houng: Because?
Amy King: Uh, honestly, I'll tell you why. Do you know the word teenager wasn't in popular usage until the 1950s? I look at kids all the time and I say this to them. I'm like, did you know that? And they're looking at me like, what is this woman saying? And I say, the reason that they, why do you think they started doing that? It's America. Any hints, any ideas? Nobody knows. And I say, Cause they could tell you, they could sell you things you didn't need. I said, that's what they needed to do. This is capitalism at its best. So suddenly in the 1950s, you were a demographic that they could sell things to, um, watch Happy Days. Should you, should you need to understand, you know, and then it just got better. And I pick up my phone and I say, this thing, this is the best invention ever to met. You know what this does? This makes you feel so bad about yourself that you can't wait to buy the next thing to make you feel better. And then I tell them that Instagram felt very concerned with my neck wrinkles today. What did Instagram, what was Instagram, uh, telling you today? [00:30:00] And they laugh and I'm like, no, it's funny and all, but I'm 54 years old. I should have neck wrinkles. There's nothing wrong with them. And they're beautiful. And, and it's, I say that out loud. Do I really believe it when I see them in the mirror, Jane? Sometimes I do not, but I would very much in my universe, I would like to go, at least.
Jane_Houng: You're a goddess.
Amy King: There you go. You know, you have to be able to do that. Um, but teens here in America are, you know, they're in a really interesting place because they are scared that first of all, I've just done the research. I can cite all the sources, except they're over there in my cabin and not in yours, but you know, they've done studies and teens here are traumatized, um, by having basically been through, uh, active shooter drills since they were in preschool. And so this, the, the actual, and I wrote a book, my first surrealist title, like pure surrealist title, and it came out in 2015 called I Crawl Through It. And that book was about drills and standardized tests and it was sort of if you can make a young person feel any less important, I, I, I, to, here, look, you could die, [00:31:00] and, oh, by the way, here's a standardized test. It, it doesn't make any sense. It's like, hide in the closet, so, and, and learn how to not get murdered in your school, and also, now, when you come out of the closet there, and, and you come back to class, here, do this, fill in these bubbles, let's see how you rank. Compared to your classmates. No one's talking to them about their trauma. No one's talking to them about their experience Um, and and worse yet there it's all very oh, you're a snowflake if you think you have trauma from this you should I walk just you know The usual I walk to school barefoot, you know 900 miles and all this stuff. But instead what I get is and I've had many people do this. Um, uh from my generation, but most of the generation um You know, uh, before mine, the boomers say, well, I had under my desk and I love looking at them going, Oh, really? And that night later on, did you, did you see any nuclear bombs dropped on Iowa? Oh, no, right. These guys actually see a school shooting. They don't see it every day, but there is one every day. There's an active shooter every day. We don't hear about the active shooters. If, if fewer than two people die or are shot or injured, we [00:32:00] don't even hear about it. It's constant and they know it. And they know. So, you know, I know that in my kids experience at their school, they have had personally in their, in their day have had people walk in and say, I have a gun in my backpack. And then they had to try and figure out how to get out of the classroom, how to report it. The worst part, the most heartbreaking part wasn't just how to report it. It was should I report it? Will they think I'm overreacting? That's the thought in a natural, normal, really,
Jane_Houng: healthy,
Amy King: Correct
Jane_Houng: teenager.
Amy King: Oh, you know, that guy probably didn't mean it. If I, if I report him, will I get,
Jane_Houng: get in trouble
Amy King: the kid come after me? Will I get bullied? Will I, all these things. Yes. Because that school isn't there to protect that child. And here's the thing, neither is the society. We need to vote on these things. We need to vote properly. And this country is well, just so propagandized on either like it's so divided at this point. We can't we can't help our own children [00:33:00] That's shameful.
Jane_Houng: It's shameful. Uh, look what's happens in the US in terms of, uh, gun laws and, and, and these gun shootings. I'm not an American, but yeah, you know, it's unfathomable. And, um, it's so hypocritical, right. And I'm just trying to think of the, of the thing of the, uh, the quote you said twice in the last twenty hours or something about, um, one reason why you write is a disgust with civilization.
Amy King: Yeah, disgust with civilization. That's the reason you write. Kurt Vonnegut said it, yeah, he said, you know, where do I get my ideas from? And then eventually he ends, you know, that he was goofing around in Indiana and he, what he found was disgust with civilization. And that is I give that line to fifth graders and, and then tell 'em, go ahead, write me what you really think. And then they do. And they feel like universes. They know their universes. Cause no one has brainwashed them out of it yet. And you are potentially mending their lives or certainly in the future, you know, you are, you are
Jane_Houng: giving them skills, I'm giving tools.
Amy King: Give them skills [00:34:00] and tools. Yep. To, to have self-confidence and to to believe in themselves and to believe in what really happens to them. Because how many people, I mean, listen. You come to a trauma, uh, you go to any trauma, a place where trauma is being discussed, every one of us has been told that's not true. Every one of us has been denied our own experience. And the bummer about that, and that's a, that's a, that's a minimizing term, but the, the, the, the bummer about that is that, well, We doubt it then or we we we're less likely to talk which is the whole reason people take it away from us in the first place Don't talk about that. There's nice things to talk about which is crazy because here again we go back to right now. There's a giant push in the United States to ban books to protect.
Jane_Houng: I was just about to ask you that question I know the books yes.
Amy King: To protect these children.
Jane_Houng: Make it safer.
Amy King: Yeah.
Jane_Houng: Sanitize. Oh, it's triggering.
Amy King: Right. So they're hiding in their chemistry room closet and in some states, right? I have a good friend who taught high school in California for years. He was given a five gallon bucket from Home [00:35:00] Depot, right? And he had to fill it with things from his home, um, rocks and stuff like that and keep it in the closet so that should there be a shooter, uh, and I don't want to say shooter. I want to say a murderer because that's the word that we should use because that's the right word. Should there be a murderer? Coming into the classroom that these kids can then pass around the bucket and take things and throw them at the person who's trying to murder them and he filled his bucket with cat food cans and I just, it's just such a, an interesting thing, right? And so you've got that on one hand and then we're like, oh, but in the library, there's a book about being queer. Oh my, what shall we do? And it's just sort of, and, yeah. We had a thing recently in my town, I'm not going to get into what it was, but in the end I did go to confront the people who, who believed some, some Christian nationalists about some lies about, um, drag queens and what a pride celebration looks like and things like this. And I came to them and I said, why did you believe those people that were on, that were once on your [00:36:00] board? And this man looked me right in the face and he said, well, I kept seeing all that stuff on the TV about drag queens. And that's where we come back to, I hate to say it, but it, it, it is ignorance and it is, it is absolutely intentional. If we keep the populace stupid, They will do what you say. And there are, how many books are, this is why we're keeping the books from them. Oh, give me all of America's children, two weeks, an animal farm. Just give me that. Give me as you know, 14, whatever it is, how many million, 40 million, give me 40 million copies of animal farm and three weeks actually, with people to talk about how to think for ourselves and what, I mean, right now, um. You know, two legs, what is it? Two legs good, four legs better, or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. Some people are more,
Jane_Houng: no, four legs, two legs better.
Amy King: Right, right, right. Exactly. And, and, and what is it? Um, more, what is it? Some people are more equal than others.
Jane_Houng: Yeah.
Amy King: And [00:37:00] that, that's what we see every day.
Jane_Houng: That's where we go.
Amy King: I mean, look, they're, they're literally like, I mean, I get, I get death threats because I wear a protect trans kid shirt in a picture. And someone, some stranger in a state, states away from me has the time to write to me and tell me that he would mur... he would kill me because I'm so depraved. And I'm like, mind your own business. What's happening in your life? Are you just attached to a television all the time? I have realized, and it's not to put people down when they're watching television. There's plenty of great things on TV. I just I, I've gotten outta the habit when you don't watch it for, for 35 years, but, um, the people I know that live on it, they are, uh, we can't even talk to each other. I've avoided all of the small talk. It's been actually the best thing to avoid small talk. But yeah, so all right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm yeah
Jane_Houng: Fiven what's happened you don't want the small talk anyway, right? I mean, that's one thing that i'm very well i'm talking about the [00:38:00] bubble Flip that
Amy King: No, I mean I'm always the person that you like I i'm avoided at parties because even if everyone else is small talk and they'll be like so how's your day and i'll be like well today I blah and I said. And then they're like, oh no, she just mentioned something that's heavy I wanted to talk about a television show, you know, or have you seen this television show and i'm like no. And then I just get to wander away and and uh, you know do my own thing, which is fine I'm comfortable in that space which is you know, and and you are I know I know that you struggle through it we both you know, we all do. But I am comfortable in the space of of I was before Gracie died too to be helping teenagers who are in strife to help schools that are in strife. I I just got a contract today to go to a school that actually admitted that they have kids who have just the trauma isn't and these are younger kids that the trauma is rampant and that the teachers need to know how to be trauma informed. So I do professional development with [00:39:00] educators, educators as well. So I'll come in and I'll talk to the teachers on the one day. I'll talk to the students the next day. In the meantime, we'll do some writing workshops and isn't that great? And then you have other States that are literally just banning all the books and saying, Oh, kids can't be traumatized. They're having the best years of their lives. It's, it's.
Jane_Houng: Oh, I mean, what don't you do? So you're writing books. I haven't even started mentioned any of your books because I will take the whole of the podcast, but then you're doing, you're doing this work. You do, you're doing prison work. You're, you're going to tell me about your charity, the one that you're doing.
Amy King: Oh, I really like to, yeah, we've just launched, um, my charities called Gracie's house. Um, Gracie's house is a 5O1C3. Um, and we are about to pretty much launch, uh, three pronged. We're gonna go three pronged. So the first, uh, the first way we're going to work is we're going to give grants to places that offer space, safe spaces. So Gracie's House is all about safe [00:40:00] spaces for queer kids in conservative or rural areas. Um, you'll see in the States now it's really not safe, um, for, for LGBTQ young people, which is terrifying. Um, and it, I mean. And so our first prong is grants for people who are starting or maintaining safe spaces, physical safe spaces in communities. The second prong is that, um, I used to go to summer camp as a young person. Summer camp was the makings of me. The person that I am right now would not be the person that I, I am if I wasn't for summer camp. And my kids went to summer camp as well. Gracie went to summer camp for 10 years and so did my son. And so But we couldn't, I, finding a summer camp for LGBTQ kids, specifically non binary and trans kids, is very difficult, uh, in, in this country, and there are waiting lists, um, that sometimes the kids age out before they can even get to the camp. So I wanted to partner with my favorite award winning camp in Pennsylvania, and I did, and we [00:41:00] are, um, going to do this, and offer a camp for for LGBTQ kids. And then the third prong is to, Gracie was an artist. She was a musician. She was a prodigy, a jazz prodigy. She was amazing. Um, and she wrote beautiful poetry as well. And so I wanted to make safe spaces for LGBTQ kids to be able to express themselves and find their own universe, we'll say, right? Um, and then there's also, there's, there's, there's secondary things like, um, community education, uh, specifically education for parents who are uncomfortably kind of on that journey and don't know whether to accept, correct. And whether they don't know what to accept, they don't know what to do. And I'd love to be able to say, Hey, listen, it's okay. It's a journey. Um, because it's a little, it's funny. People act like it's a death and it is a change. You do grieve the child that your child. I guess you do. I mean, I, I didn't have this experience with my trans child, but like. It's a change, and you do have [00:42:00] to sort of step into it. And, you know, 40 We have the worst homeless youth problem at the moment in the States than we've ever had. One homeless child for every 30 children in this country.
Jane_Houng: One in 30?
Amy King: Yeah, but listen, check this out. 45 percent of those homeless youth are LGBTQ kids who have been kicked out by their parents. Yeah, or have had to leave because their parents are going to threaten them to do, you know either conversion therapy or just basically won't respect who they are and so. That's a problem. I would much rather educate the community so that maybe somebody can say, Hey, have you ever heard of this place? Maybe you want to talk to this place. Maybe that could help you reconnect with your, you know, your son or daughter. Um, you know, I shouldn't say it that way. Your child.
Jane_Houng: Even you said I made a mistake. I have to be so careful here, but I mean, I have the highest respect, but I mean, it's complicated at the moment in terms of gender identity.
Amy King: Yeah, we learn and then we all make mistakes and you have to just go, Oh, I made a mistake and that's it. But, um, but [00:43:00] no, like, and so the idea is, yeah, the education, but Gracie's House is, is, we're about, we're probably going to launch around June, around Pride this year.
Jane_Houng: Brilliant .
Amy King: And yeah, the idea is to start the first year of camp next year. But it might be the year after because i'm a little busy this year. But yeah.
Jane_Houng: Sounds like it and it's called Gracie's house.
Amy King: Gracie's house is the name of the charity. Yeah Yeah, Gracie's house because it was always a safe space for LGBTQ kids. Her friends could come over I've always flown up flown a pride flag in my in my town. I was the first I was the first one that got stolen a lot. Um, it got it got vandalized a lot Um it is now so fastened into the pillar that if someone wants to steal it, they have to bring a hacksaw. But yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, it's seeing teenagers is something adults for some reason have trouble doing sometimes. Um, because they're so conditioned to say, Ah, teenagers, and then they roll their eyes. Or, or, um, when your kid's young, uh, you'll be, maybe be saying something on Facebook or something and say, Ah, we'll [00:44:00] just wait until they're a teenager. You know, it's always, it's always advertised as such strife. And in actual fact, I find them to be the most expressive, fun, complicated. I mean, of course, it's their formative years. Of course, it's complicated. It was complicated for all of us. You know, the one thing we do need is support at those times. Why would you bully? You know. By by rolling your eyes at someone why would you do that? Why would you leave them behind? And so for me, I always wanted to be there for teenagers and and that's really what my life has been.
Jane_Houng: It has been almost all your books are YA.
Amy King: All my books are YA. I moved to middle grade a little bit, but I still talk about, you know, topics that are, that are definitely helping young people. I know that because the middle graders, man, do they write letters. Uh, uh, so do young adults, but, um.
Jane_Houng: And you can write the tough stuff in YA, can't you?
Amy King: Yeah. Yeah. I can write the tough stuff in middle grade, just in a different way, you know, and it's, you know, it's important that actually post pandemic, I'll say this, the, the, the [00:45:00] program that I used to put on in high schools. I can now do that program in middle schools and they are absolutely on board. So it's funny because the teachers will tell you and, and I trust them for this and a hundred percent that middle schools, you know, these kids, when they, when the pandemic hit them in, in mid elementary school, or now I guess early elementary school, it changed who they were and they learn differently and they have, you know, different gaps, um, in behavioral, you know, behavior spaces, whatever, and even learning spaces. But I'll tell you what, they understand trauma. And I don't say the word trauma when I do that
Jane_Houng: lightly.
Amy King: Yeah.
Jane_Houng: You don't say the word.
Amy King: I don't say it when I'm on stage, but I infer it.
Jane_Houng: You identify.
Amy King: Yeah. And they know exactly what I'm talking about. I say it between the lines. They know exact and they absolutely, they, you know what they are. They're thrilled that an adult is talking to them as if they are smart and they understand. Emotionally smart. They're smart, emotionally smarter than adults. I find that. And the things that even little children say. Oh, absolutely. It's so profound. Absolutely. [00:46:00] Awfully. Absolutely.
Jane_Houng: Um, your latest book, the one that's going to be published this, this year, Pick the Lock.
Amy King: Pick the Lock, yes.
Jane_Houng: You know, I, I saw the title and I cringed, because you know why? I've got a phobia about locks. Um, and I, and I, I wonder why that is. That is, but I know it's something to do with the fact that I've done a lot of, um, voluntary work in prisons and, and all that clink, clink, clink of the lock as you get in and then you see these guys and, you know, it's, and they're stuck because of this, partly that, and then I'm, I'm very aware that for my husband, my husband is obsessive about security. He's Chinese, he lived through the Cultural Revolution, he had soldiers, entering his house and wrecking it, you know, years ago, decades ago in mainland China. And, um, also there's something linked to Becky because one, I've written about this in my memoir, she was a very trusting person and she was the kind of person [00:47:00] that she, you know, she would forget to lock the door and because actually when they were small, I didn't lock the door either, but things have changed. But I just think of her, uh, she was so trusting and, and she got in that car and then she was locked in there. So I've got a bit of, do you think, do you suggest I read it?
Amy King: It's not really about locks. So there's no, I mean, it is. This, the lock here is this is about the patriarchy and it's about, um, it's about how the culture teaches us to hate our mothers. And it's about, uh, so you know, the normal thing, Oh, well, teenage girls, they hate their mothers and it's just sort of become, again, it's almost like we've been propagandized into this. We've, we've believed it because people say, Oh, of course there's psychological reasons that you're, you know, you're same gender parent, you know, and you have a, you know, you butt heads at a certain age because you're looking for your freedom and all of that. That makes sense. But the idea of hating our mothers is given to us as almost the most, uh, acceptable option. And so, um, this book is about how when you hate [00:48:00] your mother, you actually hate half of yourself. And that, um, that actually trips you up later on in life, but it's about, um, it's about domestic violence. It's about, um, and many of my books are,
Jane_Houng: Oh then I mush read it..
Amy King: Yes, yes. Um, and then it's, but it's also, it's, it's somewhat surreal. It's about actually a a system of tubes. So imagine those hamster tubes.
Jane_Houng: Fallopian tubes?
Amy King: No. Not fallopian tubes. No. Um, like, imagine hamster tubes. But they're, they're pneumatic tubes. So just like, you know, at the bank drive thru. Right? Um, but they're human sized. And so women are shuttled around in, uh, capsules inside these pneumatic tubes. And it really is about controlling how you can control the narrative if you lock women up in tubes first of all Um, and which is technically a metaphor for uh, everything.
Jane_Houng: It's a long bubble.
Amy King: It is so it's a metaphor for kind of you know reality, um, and it's about how what that's what doing that teaches young women, um, [00:49:00] and how they don't really stand a chance. By the time they're 15 or 16 years old, they A) know they're going to end up in those tubes themselves, and B) hate themselves because they've been taught to hate their mothers while their mothers are locked up in those tubes. Um, and that, you know, it, it actually, part of it, it goes back to the myth that, Oh, well, women only started working in the seventies when the women's liberation movement started. No, they didn't. Women were always working. Um, but again, we've been propagandized. So if you talk to someone now, you know, they, they would say, well, this is what, this is the truth. Well, really? Have you, have you researched this? This is one of the things I find about people and mouths. They open them a lot and they move them a lot, but they don't read a lot of things before they do it. Um, You know, so they don't understand that women have been working for centuries. Women have always been working. Uh, it's just something that we do. Uh, but now it's a reason to hate us is now it's a reason to say, Oh, well, she doesn't look after her children. She, she's working and we're to be shamed for this. And, um, I remember thinking that my mom should be home. I have a great pop. Maybe I'll read the poem about it. I have it somewhere. It's.
Jane_Houng: [00:50:00] Oh, I was hoping you had it here and you're just going to get it out of your pocket. We could end with some beautiful words.
Amy King: I am I have one somewhere and I can't it's about the craftmatic. Uh, I I should we should pause and I'll go get it What do you say? Will we?
Jane_Houng: We can actually.
Amy King: Go pause i'll go get it we have time.
Jane_Houng: And then we'll finish.
Amy King: Yeah, it's perfect I have lots of time. I have till three. Oh, that's so funny. Oh, I, I haven't even read this poem in ages. It's about the craftman who could build a bed. Uh, I have to explain it a little bit.
Jane_Houng: Oh, you really don't mind marching up there and getting it?
Amy King: No, It's not . It's great. Yeah.
Jane_Houng: Oh. Fantastic. Don't rush…………………………. You got it?
Amy King: Um, yes, I have it.
Jane_Houng: Brilliant. Can you read it for us?
Amy King: I will. [00:51:00] It's called Mother Working. This morning my daughter apologized for staying home from school, for being sick, for being in my way while I worked. Can you hear it? That's my soul crushing under ten ton guilt. When I was her age, fifth grade, I stayed home snotty and called the 800 number for the Craftmatic Adjustable Bed. I'd talk to the people there. My mother was at work. I wasn't sorry. Not at all. We got brochures in the mail, weeks later, for the beds. Addressed to me, all of 10 years old. Already a customer. Already infested with the germs of commercials run between game shows. My mother never apologized for working. I never wanted her to. I do it all the time. Maybe it was easier to fight the system before it ate us. Maybe now that we are in its belly, we are sorry empty calories. The monster was hungriest when it [00:52:00] discovered cheap, disposable labor. Hello? Craftmatic Adjustable Beds? Can I help you? I never realized I was calling someone else's mom. I was just lonely. This is why I'm sorry. Cut all the women out of their jobs and make a collage. They are your mothers. Didn't have time to bake cookies today, baby. Sorry. They are your sisters. Can't conceive under stress. Sorry. Can't find my shoes, my keys. Paste them on the wall and trace the perimeter of yourself. They fed you in the lunch line, taught you how to read. They invented your desk lamp. Got fired for getting knocked up. Got paid less. Caused my daughter this lifelong fever.
Jane_Houng: Amy, I'm humbled to be with you. You are a mother. You are the surrealistic YA writer of the world. I don't know, [00:53:00] you've got this extraordinary thing going on. And, um, Thank you so much for being here on the podcast.
Amy King: Thank you for having me. I will come back and talk about anything ever, Jane. I'm so thrilled you started this podcast. I wish you all the best with it and with everything you're doing. You're doing great stuff.
Jane_Houng: We try, don't we?
Amy King: We do. I always say at my loss group, I'm so happy to meet you. I'm so sorry to meet you. And you know what? I'm so sorry for your loss, but I'm so proud to know you. In this new incarnation as someone who is
Jane_Houng: a bereaved mother,
Amy King: bereaved mother.
Jane_Houng: All the very best.
Amy King: Same as that. Same as that, Jane.
Thanks again for listening to Mending Lives with me, Jane Houng. It was produced by Brian [00:54:00] Hou. You can find relevant links to this show in the comments section. I would not, could not, be doing this without many people's support and encouragement. So until next time, goodbye.