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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Rumneek Johal: Hi. Welcome to From Here Forward, a UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Rumneek and she's Carol.
[00:00:08] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. I'm so excited about today's episode because this man is a Vancouver journalism icon.
[00:00:17] Rumneek Johal: Icon indeed. And if you're an avid Twitter user like me... Or if you keep up to date on local news, you have definitely heard of this UBC alum.
[00:00:27] Carol Eugene Park: He's known for his pretty niche [00:00:30] BC knowledge and his municipal reporting, but since 2020, uh, he's definitely been, um, kind of known for his COVID infection and death graphs.
[00:00:39] Rumneek Johal: Okay, I'm just gonna come out and say it. We got to talk to municipal affairs reporter Justin McElroy from CBC Vancouver, and while we spoke to him, he was actually sitting in the newsroom, so you can hear bits of behind the scenes news making in the background.
[00:00:55] Carol Eugene Park: Yeah, I don't know about you, Rumneek, but I was like pretty nervous and excited to connect with him because, [00:01:00] you know, it's like a small industry and so at some point, we've all interacted via the socials or, you know, at press gatherings. But it was still really cool because for us early career journos, he's kind of like a celebrity.
[00:01:12] Rumneek Johal: Yeah, it was honestly kind of surreal. Although there may be multiple people with the same name, Justin is certainly one of a kind in the Vancouver media scene.
[00:01:21] Carol Eugene Park: You are arguably one of UBC's more famous, uh, alums. Um, so maybe walk us through how you ended up from poli sci to student [00:01:30] journalism.
[00:01:30] Justin McElroy: So. You know, I think like a lot of liberal arts students, you know, you go into university because you just like learning about a bunch of stuff and you don't necessarily have a set end goal for what you want to do with it, in the same way as, maybe if you go into the sciences, or engineering, or commerce, or what have you. And that really struck me about halfway through my second year where I was sort of like, well, political science is the [00:02:00] thing that I'm enjoying the most. And I like being around politics and seeing how power is created and dealt with.
[00:02:10] But I don't. I don't really like the people that much and I don't like the idea of having to suck up to a bunch of politicians for decades. So while all that was going on, I was involved in a bunch of, uh, different hobbies as well, and things at UBC. And one of those things was writing a column on sports for the campus paper, the [00:02:30] Ubysee, because I thought that that was fun and I grew up, uh, reading the sports section of, uh, my local paper in Victoria, and I was at... UBC Thunderbird games anyways, working, uh, on the stats table. So, I could just go home afterwards and, uh, talk about what I saw.
[00:02:49] Then a few editors said to me, "Hey, you should come by the newsroom, we like your writing and we're looking for editors next year. And you should see if maybe this [00:03:00] is something you're interested in." I went into the windowless basement in the old sub that was the UBC office, and I immediately fell in love. The people, the conversations, the arguments, the act of putting together this newspaper twice a week, uh, that went out to students across campus.
[00:03:20] It was still a time for newspapers where you heard, oh, there are internships, a lot, you know, dozens of them around the country. And then, the starting [00:03:30] pay at these mid and big size papers is you know, enough to live in Vancouver. I quickly went, this is what I want to do. I'll finish my degree, but I would really like to see if I could make this being a journalist and telling stories to people and writing about my community work.
[00:03:46] And luckily, after three years of being an editor at the paper, before I should say, I got an internship with the province newspaper. Off the back of that, and from there, was able to get a job with Global News writing [00:04:00] overnight then from 1 in the morning, to 11 in the morning.
[00:04:03] Carol Eugene Park: For a lot of us who are in this industry, we know that it's not as glamorous as it is portrayed in movies and such, but you know, when you're a student journalist, you have all these kind of ideas and concepts of what journalists do and are.
[00:04:16] What did you take away from student journalism that you still practice today?
[00:04:20] Justin McElroy: I think one thing that was important, and that maybe differentiated myself a little bit, was because when you're a campus journalist for a campus paper, [00:04:30] instead of getting the degree or diploma, while you're learning, you are actively writing for an audience, a very local audience of people surrounding you.
[00:04:39] And so, number one, you hear, if you screw up, from not just your teacher, but from dozens, if not hundreds, of students saying, hey, that is not accurate. Or, hey, that was really good. And so, that forces you to sort of figure out your philosophy based on experiences with people in real time.
[00:04:59] The second thing is [00:05:00] you're also doing it, and this is similar to if you're in a program, you're having those conversations with your colleagues at the same time trying to make it. And so, the debates are really fierce, and it forces you to back up why you think certain things should be covered, or not covered, or done through this lens, or that lens, in a way that is very visceral, because again, it is then out there for plenty of folks.
[00:05:21] But then third, and you know, one thing that I do a lot of, is trying to build communities, or talk to people in British Columbia. In a sense [00:05:30] of like, we are all here in this shared space, and shared experiences, and not sort of a view from nowhere, or designed to try and, you know, appeal to, millions of people that aren't from this province.
[00:05:41] And I think publishing for UBC students explicitly, and saying, hey, this is our campus, and these are the people we care about, and these are the things happening distinctly with the politics west of Blanca Street. And seeing that there was an audience for that, and people really appreciate it. Yeah, let's go deep into the weeds on this thing [00:06:00] that is sort of niche, but matters to me and 500 other people really informed a lot of what I've done in the decade plus since.
[00:06:07] Rumneek Johal: We're going to get into some of the niche interests and areas that you cover, but I want to ask, is there any memorable moments that you can think of, whether it is being at the student paper or just being at UBC in general? What is something that you remember most from your time there?
[00:06:23] Justin McElroy: There was for a few years, I'm not sure whether it still goes on, but on the last day of classes, oh, actually the day before exams start, yeah. The day [00:06:30] before exams start, there was basically an undie run, where, you know, hundreds of students just go down to their underwear and run through Kerner Library and a few other places, and then they would jump the fence to the old swimming, outdoor swimming pool next to War Memorial Gym, and then hop in the pool and swim around.
[00:06:49] And it was just very, very earnest, happening from like 9 to 11 at night, you know, when everyone's doing their last bit of cramming. And so, a little bit of levity for everyone who is [00:07:00] studying because you're only in there for five, 10 minutes and people chant UBC. And we knew this was happening and we were like, we want to make this like the most epic sort of scene ever.
[00:07:10] And so we got like three people filming stuff. We got into the library knowing that they were going to be in there. We had a, and there was a campus security guy who knew this was going to happen and tried to lock all of the doors and, uh, basically [00:07:30] he was the, he became the villain of the piece, because we were filming him going, it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna happen, and then they managed to find a side door to go into that he didn't lock.
[00:07:40] And they all burst through there instead, and by the time he gets there, it's too late, and now there's 200 people in their underwear chanting UBC. And then he looks at us, at our camera, and says, I'm gonna have you criminally charged, because you tipped them off. Which, of course, he could not do, but he was so pissed off at the moment, and we just put a bunch of, like, [00:08:00] 80s music to it, and we made it like a John Hughes pastiche, and, uh, I just, and we, and we edited it overnight, so this happened, you know, from 9 to 11, and we just worked until, like, 4 in the morning to then put this out, get it on YouTube , and then tens of thousands of people then watched it, and that to me was just such a fun, both combination of the thrill of putting something together for an audience and then having their joy in sharing that, reflecting that shared experience.
[00:08:26] Rumneek Johal: That's amazing. That is amazing.
[00:08:29] Carol Eugene Park: Wow. I'm just like [00:08:30] picturing how that would fly if that happened like this year.That's like wild to think about.
[00:08:34] Justin McElroy: I mean, and this is, you know, you, you think of, we would do a tradition at the paper was to write a list every year of X things to do at UBC before you graduate. And it's just fascinating looking through and the number goes up by each year based on how many years the UBC paper had existed.
[00:08:50] So, uh, when I was there, it was like 91, 92, and now it's like 104 or 5, right? Uh, and you look through every year and things change, and [00:09:00] it's based on the attitudes of the time, and the stereotypes of the time, and the traditions of the time. And it's just fascinating to see which things get more play and which don't because of what the campus is and who is on it, and what the values are, and who the journalists are as well.
[00:09:17] And so, you know, on one hand, you can look at some of that stuff and go, wouldn't fly today, right? Or that was cringe. And on the other hand, you go, yeah, and that's universities and they are always evolving, and it's good that they're [00:09:30] always evolving.
[00:09:30] Carol Eugene Park: Speaking of universities at large. So, so as you said before, you grew up in Victoria, but you decided to go to UBC. Why did you seek out UBC when you had UVic? And, and I guess kind of a followup to that is like, what makes UBC stand out?
[00:09:43] Justin McElroy: Like a lot of 18-year-olds, uh, in a mid sized city, I wanted to go to the bigger place. I was like, this town is too small for me. And there's only one of everything and I need to see the world and you know, all that stuff.
[00:09:57] And I remember very distinctly, I [00:10:00] applied to UBC, University of Alberta, McGill and Toronto. And I was fortunate enough to get into all four, I had good grades. I was fortunate enough to be a finalist for a bunch of scholarships. I was not fortunate enough to get any of those actual scholarships, and my family did not have a lot of money, and there was no sort of like lump sum of college funds waiting for me.
[00:10:19] Uh, and so while on one hand, I knew that I needed to leave, and I wanted to leave, as much as I loved my family. On the other hand, the difference, I then did the math of, okay, how much does it cost to [00:10:30] fly back and forth from any of these places two, three, four times a year versus taking the ferry once a month to Vancouver, and it became a pretty easy choice.
[00:10:39] And then another part of it too was the Olympics. I went to UBC in 2005. I was like, I will probably be in Vancouver then in this fifth year. That seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity. I was, I ended up being lucky enough to work for NBC during the games itself.
[00:10:53] And so I was like, you know, I think. Vancouver is a good middle ground. It's a bigger place. I might be able to get into a [00:11:00] situation where I could do something cool when the Olympics are going on, but it was very much sort of, you know, a balancing act of just all these different factors rather than a, a very explicit, I need to go to UBC for x, y, and z, which I think is common for a lot of students, right?
[00:11:16] They just fall into going to a place through all these different things happening in their life rather than, this is the best program for this one specific thing. That happens for, you know, your master's and your post grad, certainly, but when you're 18 years old, it can [00:11:30] just be so random why you end up in one place as opposed to another.
[00:11:33] Carol Eugene Park: We do be running away.
[00:11:35] Justin McElroy: It is a powerful instinct.
[00:11:37] Rumneek Johal: I want to talk about more, some of the more recent things and a lot of the things that you can share from your current experiences. One of which I see on Twitter a lot is this comparison between, or not even comparison, mix up, between you and another famous Justin McElroy. How often do people mix you up, and how often do you have to try to clarify the confusion.
[00:11:59] Justin McElroy: It happens [00:12:00] less now only because it has happened so many hundreds of times over the previous six or seven years, that people now know the deal, right? So I found it very funny and very cool when it started because I remember him, being just sort of like, you know, you Google your name, uh, and you see who else out there shares that. And there's not a lot of Justin McElroy's, but one was sort of like prominent, of like a video game journalist. I went, Oh, that's cool. Uh, and then as I [00:12:30] started my career, and I start getting more opportunities, and more bylines, he starts, you know, his podcasting empire starts taking off. And so, he starts becoming more and more prominent.
[00:12:40] And so, there would be mix ups where people would send things to him that they intended for me, like a police scene with a body on an alley in East Vancouver, I'm not kidding. And he would send me a DM saying, Hey, what's your email? And I sent it to him, he sent me this tip.
[00:12:58] First time I met the premier of the province, David Eby, and he wasn't premier at the time, but I was for an event six or seven years ago. And I said, hi, I'm Justin McElroy. And he was like, Oh, like the podcast. I was sort of like, aha, great. This is what he's going to be thinking about the entire time.
[00:13:12] But no, I mean, it has been a source of great joy. There was one time where a bunch of teenagers invited me on a group DM to the prom because they thought I was the other Justin McElroy and got super excited and then super disappointed when they realized I was just a local Canadian journalist. But also, [00:13:30] Justin has been such a lovely person about this as well, like, me having his name has been a recurring bit on their podcast and following up on the weird stuff that I do.
[00:13:39] Because of his connections, uh, I have, uh, gotten replies from Lin Manuel Miranda twice in my life, which is one of those stupid, like, this is way too much situations. And I go, you know, you can't decide who you are going to have the same name as, but if you do have it as someone famous, it is very cool when their [00:14:00] fans are so lovely and enthusiastic and really lean into all the jokes that can come around it.
[00:14:05] It was very awesome, although after Lin Manuel tweeted at me, I could not focus for like the next three hours of my day because I had to fanboy too much.
[00:14:14] Carol Eugene Park: So, just to kind of pivot to COVID times, um, during the pandemic, you kind of became very well known for your graphs, at least on Twitter, and so much so that it seemed like people were kind of like waiting on you to post your graphs, be like, hey. You [00:14:30] know, what did that kind of instance reveal to you about the public's desire and eagerness for accessible data?
[00:14:36] Justin McElroy: I'll back up and sort of set the scene a little bit for folks, because I do know that was the primary way that a lot of people, and especially lots and lots of people who otherwise wouldn't have interacted with my reporting, suddenly did, either directly or indirectly because friends were sharing charts on other social media or, you know, other media were using the analysis that I was doing.
[00:14:57] Where I'd had early exposure to the COVID case, and so I was sent home on March 11th about, you know, 5, 6, just when things were escalating, and it was declared a global pandemic by the World Health Organization on March 11th, but as a province, as a country, as a society, we weren't really there yet. So, I was sent home, out of a precaution, and suddenly I couldn't report like I normally could. So, I was like, well, I gotta do something for the next two weeks.
[00:15:24] I do a lot of charts for local government stuff that are just like, here's where your taxes are going to, or this was the margin of victory over the last four elections in this writing, or we've crunched the budgets over the last seven years, and here's the trend line for this department, or what have you.
[00:15:42] And I went, you know, there's a decent amount of numbers that we have for how BC is dealing with this, at the time, coronavirus 19, and they're just in these messy press releases that the government has sent intermittently. But if we're talking about a thing that is going to be going up [00:16:00] and then at some point might go down, having that on a chart might be helpful.
[00:16:04] So I, I showed my bosses sort of like three drafts of a few charts that I had made based on like testing, and total cases, and total cases. At that point that, you know, the chart was just like, one, three, two, six, like it was very just jumpy, but I was like, Hey, I could do this every day for while this is going on, not thinking at time that I was picturing here is what I will do for the next 18 months, and it will [00:16:30] dominate my life, and create a weird conversation with tens of thousands of British Columbians.
[00:16:34] If I had known that, maybe I wouldn't, honestly, I may not have been as enthusiastic, right? But I did, and I, and they said okay, and then the pandemic escalated and became, you know, the number one thing in all of our lives for a long, long time.
[00:16:49] And, you know, very early on, two things happened, where the government both released information at a set time each day with the number of cases and [00:17:00] hospitalizations and deaths, and at a certain point, of vaccine numbers, but they did not do it in a way where they provided the data visually in a way that was particularly accessible or helpful to people.
[00:17:14] And they did not provide information in a way that was transparent, certainly compared to most of the rest of the provinces in Canada, and not in a way for people that wanted more context as to why things were happening and [00:17:30] may have found the communication strategies of the government frustrating.
[00:17:34] What originally, was just me sort of like riffing during these press conferences, is they would say the numbers and I would type out the numbers as they were saying it. And plugging them into my own sort of, like, custom charts and quickly getting those out. At that point, I was sort of like, okay, this is meaningful in a way that journalism mostly isn't. You know, in a day-to-day time, people look at news and they care [00:18:00] about it, and they're passionate about it often, but... It's secondary to their lives. It doesn't impact them on a day-to-day basis, or a story might impact them on one day, and then no longer. And then suddenly it was, and it was very close to people, and it was the same story every day.
[00:18:17] You know, what I was doing was impacting whether they were going to visit their family. Or what their weekend plans were, because they sort of went, well, this is, the government is saying these things and it's confusing, uh, and [00:18:30] sometimes contradictory, but the, here are these charts and I, you know, learn visually, or I trust Justin to cut through the layers of catchphrases that Adrian Dix is saying a little bit more.
[00:18:43] I felt I had a responsibility to do that as best that I could, because it mattered to people on a much deeper level. And my bosses agreed, and so that continued until September of 2021 when I stopped doing them on a daily basis because there [00:19:00] was just, uh, less data being provided by the and there was less that knew that was being able to provide it to help people understand, but most people at that point had been double vaccinated.
[00:19:09] As well, and then again on sort of a weekly basis for another year, while Omicron was happening, while third doses were happening, again stopping at a certain point because there was just so little information to go on. And also, just bluntly, after about two and a half years, uh, the pandemic had stopped being a front of mind thing [00:19:30] for most people.
[00:19:31] They had figured out their framework and understanding for what the pandemic was to them, how much it mattered, how they were going to get through things. They did not need me tweeting out charts anymore to make sense of it or to help them. And so it became in some ways, a fairly easy choice at a certain point in time.
[00:19:50] Rumneek Johal: You just demonstrated beautifully one of the ways that you've been able to kind of carve out your own lane in journalism. You've also taught us that there is truly no [00:20:00] topic that is too niche. I know you're doing a bracket on lakes across BC, and I'm sure all the brackets that you do always elicit a very strong response from people.
[00:20:12] So, how have you been able to kind of carve out your own niche in journalism industry, and kind of been able to tap into these ideas that might seem super hyper specific, but really do get audiences really interested and engaged in what you're reporting on and talking about.
[00:20:29] Justin McElroy: You [00:20:30] know, there's the line from a musical I quite like called, 'Title of Show', which is a musical about people making a musical, which is very meta, which is, "I'd rather be nine people's favorite thing than a hundred people's ninth favorite thing." And I'd always took that as a, if you talk about what you are passionate about, and find really cool, and, uh, you find a few people that also find that really interesting, that is, that is valuable, and that is neat, [00:21:00] and that is an experience that, for me, is much more powerful.
[00:21:03] You know, when I started my career, just write about things that off the side of my desk that I thought were sort of cool, right? Whether it was, hey, Canada has a lot of Heritage Minutes, what if I ranked them all and made silly asides about each of them?
[00:21:21] Or, hey, I really. I think ghost towns in BC are, are super cool and they have these backstories, and they have these mysteries even [00:21:30] today, and no one's done a story on them in 10 or 15 years. That has been more than just like clickbait, 'Whoa look at this crazy photo, I'd like to do something there.' And I would pitch these things sometimes and my bosses would sort of go, okay, and roll their eyes, right. And go, that's not really news or, that's sort of like, I'm not sure who would care about that, but I was sort of like, I care about it, and I think a few other people might, and we'll see.
[00:21:57] And then I would do these things, and lots [00:22:00] more people would find it interesting than they thought, and so at a certain point, it went from, here's things that I'm doing on the side that I am just doing because I find inherently interesting and I'll make time for it, whether it's at two in the morning or not.
[00:22:15] To my managers going, "Hey, this is striking a chord with people. You're touching into something that maybe we didn't anticipate. You should not be working at two in the morning, but B, you should be doing this on company time. And this should be a thing that is a, you know, then global [00:22:30] news, now CBC thing." And you know, the more that you chase things like that, and they work out, the more opportunities you have to do things like that in the future.
[00:22:39] To me, it's just always been very rewarding and very validating to see that, you know, I, I tend to take the approach that we, you know, in this province have things that we all debate, and all discuss, and have a shorthand on. And you see it in Reddit threads, or Instagram comments, or just conversations that you have with your friends.
[00:23:00] And yet, it wasn't, you know, in 2016/2017, it wasn't really reflected all that much in terms of like official media stuff. There was a distance there, a sort of a clinical way of talking about that, and that's not really the case quite as much now. And now there are things, you know, like Seabus Memes, uh, to all sorts of TikTok accounts that have vernacular where people sort of understand, 'Hey, we're talking about this area or this thing,' in a shorthand that [00:23:30] people don't know.
[00:23:30] But, I think it's just been really cool to, you know, see that approach, uh, take off, um, and, you know, it's not replacing traditional news, in terms of how stories are told, and the bread and butter of gathering information, and getting those facts to the public. But that can be augmented with a touch and a tone that says, 'Hey, I understand you. I know you. Where you live, I know the sort of things that you're interested in, or you have conversations with, debates with.'
[00:24:00] And just put that seasoning on the approach that makes the public trust your reporting a little bit more as well. And that's something that I always come down to, is that if people know your byline and they know your face or voice, and they understand, 'Hey, they’ve talked about this and that, and they really know this province, and they know this city, and they get these complicated feelings that we have towards BC ferries, or ICBC, or the Massey Tunnel.'
[00:24:26] Then they're going to trust what you say a little bit more, and they're going to [00:24:30] go, okay, I believe that they've put in the work to do that, and that's something that time and time again, I've, if I've taken that approach, then it's been validated by the response that people have.
[00:24:41] Carol Eugene Park: One of the things that we are, you know, in the industry talk about is like, you know, Bill C-11, Bill C-18, you know, with you, CBC, there's always that hashtag defund CBC rhetoric.
[00:24:50] I guess like, you know, what do you make of these kinds of like claims of like, oh, like media is declining, we can't trust them. Um, like what are your kind of counter counters to those kind of ideas?
[00:25:00] Justin McElroy: I mean, I think, you know, we're in an era where you look 20, 30, 40 years ago, people were getting their sources of information from three or four places. You had your six o'clock channel, you had your newspaper subscription, maybe you had your magazine subscription, and that was it.
[00:25:16] And now, you have an almost infinite amount of possibilities of places you can get information, ones that are targeted towards the things that you care about most and with a framework of, uh, talking about information that is most appealing to you.
[00:25:34] Uh, and so the trend lines are not surprising. They are consistent from country to country. There is very little that any one person can do to combat that on a macro level. And so, that's why I tend to be a little bit nihilistic about it in some ways, which comes across maybe on social media, because, you know, I can do the best that I do, and I know that there are X number of people that trust and appreciate the [00:26:00] work, but overall, we are still going to be, we are still on this trend line of declining trust.
[00:26:06] You see it in surveys. There's a lot of macro forces that have to work itself out in order for that to change. So, you know, I certainly can't speak for the many, many, uh, people at CBC that do amazing work all the time, and that are the ones figuring out our strategies of what does it mean to be trusted? What does it mean to combat misinformation?
[00:26:30] And so I won't attempt to do it here, but I will say that I really take the approach of all any of us can do, is create that connection with audiences, to be transparent about, uh, where we're getting information, and why it matters, and to not fret as if we can, on the bigger picture, because we cannot control it. And that's been my strategy.
[00:26:50] I know other people sometimes have different ones, and I say, all power to you, but you know, we have been down this road for a while now. The reasons for it are [00:27:00] not new and are not particular to Canada. The long-term solutions are what they are and are not, particular to any one platform or country as well.
[00:27:09] And so all I can do is do every day. And if ranking the 37th best hamburger stand in the city either makes no difference to that, or makes a tiny little bit of difference to that for a few people, then that'll play out as it does.
[00:27:26] Rumneek Johal: What are your thoughts, I guess you've kind of answered it a little bit, on the state of the journalism industry? And considering that, what would be your advice to young journalists who may be disillusioned or fearful, not asking for a friend or anything, but, um, what advice would you have to offer?
[00:27:48] Justin McElroy: No, I, I would say that, you know, the amount of places and opportunities and audiences to reach people is so huge now.
[00:27:58] When I [00:28:00] started out, you know, now 15 years ago, right? Yeah, social media was a thing as everyone was on the internet in 2008, but you still had to go through, you know, four or five places, uh, to do a thing. And that was it. The technology for someone to create their own video was very limited or even charts, right? You just basically had to write or talk into a microphone, and that was it.
[00:28:27] Now, the number of places you can tell your [00:28:30] story and the types of mediums that you can do it in as just one person, are so huge and you can fit your strengths into that so much better, than I could when I was starting out, that I think, you know, if you go in with the proper expectations.
[00:28:46] And I think that's key in understanding, here are the amount of jobs that are available, and here are their salaries, and here are the things that you will have to consider for all these different types of organizations, and the different ethics and values that they have, and they are [00:29:00] different, and will you be comfortable with that?
[00:29:02] Here are the different ways that their business model might change. You've got to think about that more than you did 30 years ago, where you go, okay, if I get a job with a big paper or magazine or a TV station, then I'm probably going to be good for the next 20 years. That has changed and that is tough, but you have all those ways of communicating with people.
[00:29:21] And, you know, in terms of specific advice, I always go, I've always been a big proponent and from the time that I started at being a journalist [00:29:30] myself, I go find two or three things that you really like, and you feel that you're really good at, and do that, and push that as much as you can. I know there's something to be said for being a journalist, and being a Swiss Army Knife, and you can do lots of everything, and some people are very good at that, and I would say that in itself is the thing that some people are. But, you know, I think back ten years ago, when, you know, every campus newspaper, convention, and every journalism school was saying, 'You need to be on twitter, that's where the conversation is.'
[00:29:58] Uh, and now people [00:30:00] don't say that, and I think honestly, that's great But I do say to people when they ask, it's like, well find one social media that you're really into. Is it instagram? Is it uh, tiktok? Is it snapchat? Is it uh, 40, 000 other type of things where you're just figuring out how do I make this medium work? How do I bind it to the skill sets that I have, to the interests I have, to the stories that I'd like to have? Do that, figure out what works and doesn't for you. And that will give you A, a better conception of what sort of journalist you want to [00:30:30] be, and B, hopefully an audience and building that engagement that will start a conversation, that at least for me has been really rewarding over the years.
[00:30:39] Carol Eugene Park: We had some great mentors during our J-school years, and also when we entered the industry. But, wow, I mean, I wish we had more of these conversations when we were like, less jaded, you know?
[00:30:51] Rumneek Johal: We're only a few years into our careers. How are you already jaded?
[00:30:55] Carol Eugene Park: I mean, what can I say? I'm a glass empty kind of girl, you know?
[00:30:58] Rumneek Johal: Don't you mean glass [00:31:00] half full?
[00:31:00] Carol Eugene Park: Nope. The glass is always empty, and she's never full.
[00:31:04] Rumneek Johal: Okay, well that is not what McElroy told us. He actually gave us a lot of amazing advice for young journalists and gave us commentary on the state of journalism today.
[00:31:13] Carol Eugene Park: And I hope to be a third as inspiring as Justin is to the youths. Like maybe in five years, I'll be less jaded? I don't know, stay tuned. Any last words, Rumneek?
[00:31:23] Rumneek Johal: No, I'm honestly just trying to hold on to the fact that we are youths for as long as possible.
[00:31:28] Carol Eugene Park: You know, what's that [00:31:30] thing? The, the teenagers adult thing? We're 27 teenagers? You know? What you know that like line where like, I'm a 27, oh, I'm a 27-year-old teenager.
[00:31:42] Have you heard that?
[00:31:43] Rumneek Johal: No, but I identify with that, personally, emotionally, spiritually.
[00:31:45] Carol Eugene Park: Okay, well, anyway, that's just us trying to keep on to our youths, but we are in our late 20s, um, so we are no longer youths, even though we have the maturity of one. But you know, I feel like that expression, of the youths are everything and we're just Ken, really hits the spot. It hits the nail in the coffin.
[00:32:04] Rumneek Johal: No, I don't think that's, you're mixing several, several different catchphrases and they're all somehow wrong. But anyways, thank you, girl.
[00:32:13] Carol Eugene Park: I mean, it feels right. Anyways.
[00:32:16] Rumneek Johal: Okay. Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review. You can also find me on Twitter @Rumneeek with three e's.
[00:32:32] Carol Eugene Park: And me @Caroleugenepark.
[00:32:35] Rumneek Johal: From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium Podcast Company.[00:33:00]