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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
doug kleven interview 1 doug track fixed
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[00:00:00] Welcome back to the podcast. I am so grateful. You are here. This has been such a fun experience for me. To interview. Experts to interview people on their stories, into. Just hold the space with this podcast for you to come and know that you're not alone to break the silence that has gone on for far too long.
So, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having the courage to. To reach out and to, to find out that you are not alone and to find more help and tools that will help you in your healing journey. Oh, so glad you're here. And I especially am grateful for all of your feedback. And for those of you who have shared questions for our ASCA therapist series and for the series that we're starting here today.
Ecclesiastical series. I am just so grateful you're here [00:01:00] and that you're willing to share your questions and your stories and your feedback with me.
In the show notes is an anonymous link where you can leave those questions. If you have a question for a therapist or you have a question as to how Astic leader can help you. That's where you go, or if you had feedback or you want to share your story with us, please use that link in the bio.
Another resource I want to share with you is our friends over at relay. It's an app that brings people together who are struggling with unwanted pornography use specifically. It has lots of features and options that help you build community in small groups. With like-minded people and it's as anonymous as you want it to be.
It allows you to get the support that you're looking for right now. It can be so hard to know how to build community, especially early on in recovery. And this app is created specifically for this.
You can sign up for a free trial with the link in our show notes, and [00:02:00] then at a very low cost, you can subscribe for the additional support that you need in your recovery journey.
Really is an incredible resource just for you. Let's jump into our episode.
Crishelle: Today we are breaking the silence with my Bishop Bishop Doug Cleen, and this is kicking off our series where we meet with Ecclesiastic leaders, and I am so excited about the series because I really hope that it helps you to understand how an ecclesiastic leader can help you in your.
Healing journey. And so today the first question that we're going to be answering is why do we visit with the bishop? Like why should we include an ecclesiastic leader in our healing journey? So that's what we're gonna talk about. But first I want to introduce our guest today. His name is Doug Cleon Douglas Cleon, and he [00:03:00] is, Amazing.
He has five kids, a beautiful wife named Cynthia, who's amazing, and he is my bishop, which is great. He's funny. He makes the best jokes all of the time. He also testifies with Jesus Christ that any chance it gets, which I appreciate so much, and he also loves to box. In fact, he allowed all of the priests in my word, which is not a small number to take. Uncontested punches at your face. Right
Doug: At my face,
Crishelle: at your face, and I think that was a reward for them reaching their goals or something. Right.
Doug: I don't remember that part, but maybe that may, I may have been concussed, so, so maybe I'm, I'm short on, on exactly what it was, but certainly, yes, it was uncontested, they were allowed to punch and it was, it was part of exercise, the
ex, [00:04:00] the physical fitness.
Crishelle: , basically what you need to know listeners, is he loves the people, cares about them, and he is here to chat with us today. So Bishop, Bishop, Doug, what are your thoughts as to why it's important to meet with the Bishop as we. Or trying to recover or heal.
Doug: So I'll give you the answer in the most obvious scenario,
and then maybe we can go out from there. And the most ob obvious scenario is when you have some, some issue, some problem in your life that you've realized that you can't control, you can't resolve on your own. And those come in all kinds of forms.
And We, we are programmed. Maybe, maybe part of it is culturally or, or maybe it is in our biology to just try to figure it out on our own and many things we can, and [00:05:00] to some degree that's a noble impulse. But there are things, traps we fall into, habits or decisions we make that cause problems that we cannot resolve on our own. And so when you've realized I have a problem and I cannot figure it out on my own, then that's the time to go see the bishop. And hopefully you have, hopefully you have a good bishop when you, when you submit that plea for help. But that's the most obvious scenario. Do you have any questions about that first case?
Crishelle: I love, I love that you said when you come with that plea for help, I, I think that that's really beautiful because it's not like you're coming cuz you're in trouble. It's not because you're coming, because like, I feel like at least growing up, for me it was like, oh, you go and see your bishop because you need to confess and [00:06:00] like, it, it was kind of stereotypical like, Not a great experience, but I loved this idea of you're coming with a plea for help.
You're seeking more assistance. I, I think of it like when I was a basketball player, I guess I still am. When I, when I was playing a lot more basketball and I was wanting to get better, I would go and find someone who was an expert at what I wanted to get better in. Right. And I'd be like, teach me how you became such an incredible post player.
Right? And, and so, I, I don't wanna minimize the experience with, with meeting with the bishop, but I think it's often like pull in more resources you're coming to, to get help, to receive revelation and to hopefully have a beautiful and revelatory experience. Is that, is that accurate?
Doug: Sure that's That's how I try to make it. Usually when somebody sits down in front of me, [00:07:00] they are doing a thing that would be very hard for me to do. I, let's say I have some embarrassing fact about my life that is causing pain. We tho those painful things are not what we post on Instagram or, or share on Facebook.
Nobody films themself. Yelling at their kids or being yelled at by their husband. So whenever somebody is sitting in front of me that takes a lot of guts. It's a lot of, a lot of courage and a lot of humility, and I don't, I don't know that I have what it takes to do what some of these people do.
So the first move on my part is to thank them to, to set 'em at ease to. To let 'em know that I am impressed by their courage and humility. And it's already hard enough. Now, some of them, it's easier to say, describe what's going on, but for some of them just forming the sentences is painful. [00:08:00] So I wanna, I wanna take the edge off of that as much as possible so that they can describe.
What's going on in their life that is hurting. And then my next goal is to, once I know what's going on, to help them to say exactly how they feel to describe exactly what's going on. Because It's very difficult. And so maybe sometimes you try to shade events to your benefit cuz it's too, it's too harm, it's too hurtful to, you know, describe what's actually going on.
And my goal is to to set them at ease so that they don't have to lie to me. They feel safe just telling me the straight up truth because we can't, we can't do a whole lot when we're. When we're still lying to one another. [00:09:00] So so I've got, I've got those two big goals. Thank you for, for having courage and set some sort of mood where they feel like I can say whatever I have to say.
Crishelle: Hmm. That's beautiful. I imagine that that feels very like sacred and even hollow ground.
Doug: Yeah. It's, it's, it's a cool thing. It's a cool thing when, when we can get that right.
Crishelle: Yeah. Why do you think someone should have the courage to have this conversation with their bishop?
Doug: Well In that first case, when your life is out of control, when you can't manage it, when it's, when there's chaos well you need help now. I try to be help. I try to be the help that you need. I'm right there. I'm free of charge. So so I do as much as I can, but I try to get them when, when you're out of control, you need help from somebody.
[00:10:00] If it isn't me, then, then it's gotta be somebody and we gotta find out who that is. If you can't be a hundred percent honest with me, then I try to help you find a person you can be a hundred percent honest with. Cuz we gotta cut out all the bologna. And and sometimes that is I'm not the right person because for whatever reason, so I try to locate that person.
So that we can we can solve a problem because there are things that you cannot do alone. Things get too difficult and you do need help. You need somebody else to, to grab you and, and pull you out of whatever hole you're in. And that's why, that's why church is important. It's a community that binds you to other people.
And that binding process. Is useful when you are the one lifting and extremely useful when you are the lifted.
Crishelle: Yeah. Oh man. I. I feel like, as you were just [00:11:00] saying, the lifted and the I, it makes me think of the story and the new Testament of the man with palsy who needed to be lowered through the ceiling to the savior. Right. And the people who, who helped him and, and just how beautiful that experience was when he was made whole.
But probably how, I mean, his whole life had been, Pretty humbling and rough. He hadn't been able to walk. Right. And I just think that that story is so beautiful and I just kept seeing that image in my head as you, as you described that. I also, I loved that you talked about the need for honesty. And I think like sometimes it's easier to be honest and sometimes than others, right.
Doug: Yeah.
Crishelle: And. But I think that honesty is really, until you can get honest with yourself and honest with God, [00:12:00] it's really difficult to change.
Doug: It's I don't, I don't know that you can do it when you're not telling the truth. Nobody changes when they're not telling the truth,
so it, it just doesn't exist.
Crishelle: When we can come and be honest, and I think of like bringing, bringing our whole self and, and all of the things to light and laying them on the altar, I think that that's where the savior can meet us with his healing balm in a way that is really. Really actually changing because otherwise if we are lying, that's, that's when the like world idea of like, people don't really change.
Yep. People who are lying don't change or people who are hiding things. It's very diff it is impossible. I I love that you said that it's impossible to change things that you're hiding and, and I think that, that, that really, I. The [00:13:00] honesty bit is, is probably the most important reason why it, why you should have the courage to do this.
I know it's scary and I know it's gonna take everything you've got, but how is it worth it?
Doug: Yeah. You mentioned the paralytic, I believe. Is it, is it the one where he's lowered down to the roof? Was that
Crishelle: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Doug: It is most interesting. The, the, the most powerful part of that story for me is when the paralytic is lowered, the first thing Christ says is, thy sins are forgiven me, I believe.
Crishelle: Yeah.
Doug: Now that is, I assume that is not what the friends were lowering in, down through the roof floor. And Christ says Something to the effect of, so that you'll know that I am, who I say am rise up and walk. But the, the broken, the, you know, the distorted bones or muscles, skeletal system, whatever the issue was, that was a secondary concern.
The primary concern was the man's soul. [00:14:00] And my experience in meeting with people is, has been that most of the pain we cause ourselves and others. Comes from poor philosophy. We have bad ideas about how the world functions how what, what God promised us and what he expects of us. We have, we have poor ideas about what church is and isn't supposed to do.
And these, this, these poor philosophies we carry around are. I think the driver of most of our pain, if we had, if we had correct thoughts internally, we could probably produce better behaviors. And so sometimes with with the issue that your side is dedicated to porn it's, we people come in with bad behaviors, but I think generally what they have is a bad philosophy.
A bad philosophy [00:15:00] about the purpose of their life, poor philosophy about sex womanhood. And I think, I think Christ had it right the most. The mo, the most fundamental problem with that man was the state of his soul, not the state of his legs.
Crishelle: Yeah. Yeah. Beautifully said. So I think, I think you brought up the, the obvious situation where you should go see a bishop and, and maybe obvious or like maybe most difficult too, like your life is outta control. When are some other times someone might wanna come visit with a bishop?
Doug: Okay, so. You know, I can't make a blanket statement for all of all church members in this scenario. Go see your bishop. Your, your bishop is a plumber. He's an accountant. He's you know, a salesman. He is not [00:16:00] a, you know, doesn't have a doctorate in therapy. And so given that this is a volunteer system we run, With non-professionals there's gonna be variability in the quality of the experiences you, you get with the bishop.
So I can't just say in this scenario, go see your bishop and he'll make it, make it right. He may not make it right. Right. Not every bishop is awesome. I have, I have let people down before. Okay. So but. In the obvious scenario, your life is in chaos and you need order. Go ask for help from your bishop.
Okay, now, now we move away from that scenario. People have come seen me when they are frustrated with their expectations of something. So they feel like life should have played out. X, Y, Z. They did X and Y. So those behaviors should have produced z. But it didn't produce C [00:17:00] And that's frustrating.
It's annoying. It's disappointing. I, I take a lot of those visits from people. Their, their, their life isn't chaotic. They're not battling some addiction that is ruining relationships and their job prospects. They just have been disappointed in some significant area of their life and, They wanna know why it happened.
And so a run at your bishop. You can do, see, see what he says, Bishop? The church says this is the scenario that was supposed to play out. This is what actually played out in my life. Why is there disparity there?
Crishelle: Yeah.
Doug: So just general questions from. That emerge from the frustrations of life. If you've got a good relationship with your bishop, go set an appointment.
See what he says, test him. Maybe he's, maybe he's got some good [00:18:00] philosophy in there to share with you,
Crishelle: Yeah.
Doug: but no promises for the record. Ha having, having slightly, you know, disclose that we aren't professionals, we are, we do something else for a living. It's not like I've been super blown away by what the professionals have done for for humanity.
Okay? So I'm not certain that, that your plumber bishop has less insight than somebody who charges you $200 an hour for, for their time. So anyways It's a mixed bag. Good luck out there.
Crishelle: Good luck. I think that's, that's very true. And I, I just wanted to speak from my experience. I and I, I've been pretty open about this on the podcast. Obviously you can go back to episode one if you ever wanna know my whole story. But I really struggle with betrayal trauma and from my family of origin, as [00:19:00] well as some relationships shortly after my mission that were very difficult and tough.
And I, there were a couple years there where I found myself in just excruciating pain and really hurt and trying to figure out how in the world do I. Access this atonement of Jesus Christ that people are talking about. How do I, how do I receive God's help? And I found myself in a bishop's office and sometimes I knew the bishop and sometimes it was like my, the bishop of my ward and sometimes it was the bishop of Ward I was visiting.
I remember this one time I was just like visiting a random ward at BYU Idaho. And I like, I just got hit with this huge wave of pain. And I was like, I need help, and I don't know who to turn to. So I went to this bishop that didn't know me, and he actually shared something with me that was incredibly profound.
And I like have the note still in my scriptures
from that visit. [00:20:00] And yeah, it like, I have no idea what he, like, I, I literally don't even know his name, but I remember what he shared with me in that moment. And So I, for me, I, the question was like, do I need God's help? Am I struggling? Do I, am I lost?
Am I hurt and do I need maybe some different perspective? If the answer was yes to that, ever, I was like, set me up an appointment with the bishop
Doug: That's not a bad idea.
Crishelle: and that was so helpful for me and, and has been through the years. And it really, and there were times that it was really obvious when I needed that help, and there were times where it was less obvious and it was like, oh, maybe it's time for me to go and get another perspective.
My therapist is great, but it's probably time for me to get someone's perspective who's probably a little bit more focused on something else. And, and that the bishop, I always felt like meeting with [00:21:00] the bishop was really helpful because, We would talk more of the savior and of the atonement, and we, it, it was hollowed ground as, as I would share the things that I just wanted help for giving.
I wanted help moving on. I wanted help having better relationships and not repeating the past and. And I feel like God helped me through so many incredible men who were just, like you said, were plumbers and salesmen and farmers. I think one of 'em was a farmer. Like I just, and, and so, so I, I, I, I love this conversation that we're having because I hope everyone knows that they can find help.
When they seek it.
Doug: Yeah, that's crucial. If you're you know, I had, I've had [00:22:00] one bishop in my life that I thought, oh, this, this is kind of a mediocre experience, so, Right. But other than that, they've all been really nice dudes. But just the fact that you say I need help, that's usually very healthy. And if you roll up on your bishop and he's not the, the guy you need will keep using that that question.
I need help. So and take that question to somebody else. So when somebody comes to me and and they've been struggling with some massive problem that they've been hiding, the first thing we gotta do is we gotta stop hiding. So if there's gotta be some person that we trust and every time we do the thing that we're ashamed of, or that's, that's hurting us.
We gotta, instead of covering that up, there's gotta be somebody out there. It could be me, but it doesn't have to be me if it's your spouse or a sibling or an [00:23:00] aunt. But there's gotta be a someone, someone you stop lying to. So if you roll up on your bishop and it's a poor experience, then find somebody else you can be honest with.
Cuz that's where we gotta start.
Crishelle: Yeah, beautifully said. Beautifully said. Is there anything else you, you would wish for maybe someone in your congregation to know as to like why they should come and meet with you?
Doug: Yeah, people in, in my neighborhood now, there are certainly more people in the neighborhood who probably should come up and they're not for reasons. I understand. For reasons that would keep me from. Showing up if some other dude were sitting in my seat and I had a problem, I under, I understand why they're not coming.
But one thing that they should know, if I could, if I could tell 'em, is that I'm, I'm, I'm blown away by their courage and their humility each time. Nobody's coming down with a hammer [00:24:00] on you. I have never. I have never closed the door after somebody left and thought, oh my goodness, I can't believe this person behaved that way.
Me personally, I come from a family with lots of you know, problems in the house alcoholism, drug use runaways, teenage pregnancies, the works. Okay, so I don't have any siblings that were murderers, so maybe that might be a curve ball if you come in and you're a murderer. Okay. I haven't, I haven't dealt with that one personally, but all of the other things we do to one another down here you know, to some degree, those, those people are, are in my family.
They're my, they're my siblings. So, and my siblings I love, they're wonderful. So there's not a thing that you. You can bring to me, that's going [00:25:00] to shock me. So you know, by all means, let's shoot the breeze. If there's pain that won't go away, then I understand pain. We are colleagues. There's no reason for you to think that you'll be looked down on
Crishelle: Yeah.
Doug: That's what I'd tell him.
Crishelle: Thanks so much for sharing, and I just feel like I heard and felt so much love in what you're sharing and the thought to me came like, when we truly know someone, when we, when we understand or maybe walk with them never, never can we judge them and I, we'd rather love them and. And respect them all the more for the journey that they're on.
Doug: Agreed.
Crishelle: Well, thank you so much I am so grateful for this conversation and I look forward to having a couple more.
If you have a question [00:26:00] you want to ask, it includes the astic. Leader or a therapist, please submit that in our anonymous form, in the show notes. I click the link. Fill it out. Give us all the contexts that you want. Share your story. It can be anonymous. It can be not anonymous. I want to hear from you. We want to answer your questions. We want to make sure that you know that you are not alone and break the silence.
That has gone on for too long in your life. Thanks for having the courage to share.
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