Steve Novak College, NBA, Game Evolution

Steve talks about his journey from college to the NBA and how he worked to be one of the best shooters. Also a great story of Joe and him working out as frshman in college!!

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All right, good morning, everybody. I got a great guest today for get into it. Season's over. Who you expected to win? Did they win? Yeah. On the boy side, I expected Marquette to win just because of the sectional they were in, you know, to get to that point.

Yeah, I wonder how they pick Marquette out of those four. Like if you're Homestead or anyone else. Yeah, Celtics was there. Homestead. You had Arrowhead, Depeer, Germantown, Oshkosh North. Yeah. All on one side. Marquette, you know, they made it to the sectional finals last year. Lost to Depeer and they returned in so many seniors. So, you know, we kind of knew they'd have a chance if they were allowed to play the game and.

and kind of floors together. A lot of those guys play year round together, so they know each other's game and they're all really good friends. So once they hit they stride, they lost a couple games in Concordia this year and we were at some of those games and we were like, they just need to figure out what it's worth to them to play as a team or about individual. And once that started clicking for them, it was going to be hard to beat them because they are the definition of how you play basketball today. They shoot.

50, 60 threes when Nolan when Nolan did that dunk over there big guy knew that they're going to probably win this. Yeah. And you know, that was just a special moment. I was there. I was able to watch the game and just sit in there and just see it kind of go full circle to see market. When it all had a chance to see your parents was there. Oh, yeah. Papa Mike Novak. Yeah. Grandma Jean. Although, yeah, your sister was there to use all your nephews. So the boys were there. Your brother was there.

Yeah. So it's just fun just to see. And we were probably at eight to ten market games and see the big Mike. He's always there. Crowd control. Yeah. Mike's like, I'm here to just like help people out. I'm like, come on, Coach Mike, you're not doing anything. You watching the game? He's just sitting there watching the game, too. So this is funny. Way to the gym. Yeah. If you would see my text messages from Papa Mike.

It's like, here's the tournament schedule. Here's the following weekend schedule. Here's what I think is going to happen. I'm like, Dad, I don't honestly know. Yeah. Half of these teams like I've never I don't know one player on any of these teams. You didn't go there. You didn't coach there. He loves it. He just loves it. This loves it. And I see I seen him walking out of the gym, you know, with your mom. I stopped to talk to her and they walked out, you know, holding hands. And it's just like.

This is just a cool love story that they have. I'm like, where are you guys going? They had over the State Street after the game to get an Uber. So it was just pretty cool, like just to see a basketball family like that. So I think the playoffs was pretty cool. So.

It was kind of emotional to kind of see all those players. A lot of Chapman. Yeah, it was a lot of Chapman. So players even seen in the fun to see like a sideline shot. There's a kid with a Chapman shirt on in the crowd. But you got to be pretty proud. I mean, as far as Chapman players, state title, a lot of first conference, a lot of all state players. Yeah. I mean, you got to be pretty proud of everybody. Yeah. Some Mr. Basketball nominees. I mean, I shared the story about Nolan, who we seen.

in eighth and ninth grade, no one knew him. He was on nobody's radar. He came in and he actually didn't make our first team and doing tryouts. He couldn't make it through the bear crawls. He was throwing up. It was like, I don't know who this kid is. So just to see how he took off every year, he eventually made that team and he just got better and better. And we pushed him to be better.

individually because he was so a freak of nature getting downhill. So it's like, well, you can't really guard him. So we just expanded his game, made him realize what he needs to do to get better. And he was a sponge. And what made me the most proud about him was we were playing a game in a live period where it was a lot of coaches there. And we're playing swing and the swing coaches know him pretty well.

And he's just dominating this whole life here. We in Kentucky last year. And he's dominating. We get to this game, they played him in a paint. They didn't allow him to shoot. They wanted him to shoot. They didn't want him to go. And he went one for 11 from three. We ended up winning by two. But he was so down on himself from going one from 11 from three.

Go full circle. We talk about it over the weekend that weekend. We watched the film of what he needed to correct. He put some time into it. The next live period, he just dominated even more with his shot and his playmaking and getting downhill. But it showed in that finals. Yeah, they tried to do the same thing. It's crazy. They like Bennett tried to guard him in a paint.

So the first couple he kind of jabbed and said I'm letting this thing fly and he made his first couple threes now you got to press up on him now is You you in the world of hurt. That's why that dude got dunked on because they tried to press him and you can't do that You know, so the beautiful part about basketball. It is having a guy. Yes It's skill set and yes the way the game is played now too and you know watching that state championship game too, like you're saying

If you can make shots as a guy, as an individual player, the way you're guarded is one thing. If you can't, it's another. And I think that's just the case for even just team basketball, where the NBA is currently at. So you think about like you're saying, how the game is played now, three point shooting and the heavy movement towards that. But the truth is, yes, a lot of guys and teams are shooting those shots. But obviously to me, the magic is really in, where is your counter?

You're talking if it's Nolan Minnesale. Yeah, Marquette high if it's the Golden State Warriors like what is your counter? And like thinking about those live periods for Nolan, right? It's like What happened he got tested? Yeah couldn't make shots for a minute. Yep He had to go back to the drawing board and figure out like how do I what is my counter? Correct. I got to become a shooter and still put it on the ground, right? And so it's just amazing to see like the great players. Yeah, they have a skill. Yeah in a counter a great team

If you look at the Golden State Warriors in all the years that they won their championships that everybody says three -point shooting Steph Curry Clay Thompson But it really was the fact that they had the ultimate counter and that they were one of the teams that they made more two -point baskets Yep, then all or had the best balance in the NBA of any team and people go over three -point shooting team No, they had one of the best counters. They had they scored a ton of points in the paint They were a great mid -range team with you guys like a good dollar and so yeah, yep, and I

I would even lean like it's more of the threat of shooting like that to create all that space. But if Nolan doesn't take those 11 shots, I think he's doing like his team a disservice. Oh, right. He makes one out of five. Right. At least maybe the next one, that guy takes a half a step up now. And it's a thought of it like he's. Yeah, he's shooting these. So yeah. And on his recruiting battle, that's what they were talking about. Like how much is he willing to take that shot? It looks good. It's not going left and right. You know, it looks square on. How much is he comfortable shooting?

And that was so many questions that they were just asking me a lot of the college coaches because he was on the verge of like he can be his trajectory in three four years from now I was telling Travis I don't know where he can be in three four years. I mean he's so Gifted in a lot of different ways that if he continued to put it all together and trust his shot Because he's gotten everything else. He's gonna get stronger and bigger. That's what college does

His vision is on. Yeah, his vision is very great. We made him a good passer. That's something he wasn't when he got here. He was just downhill player. So we wanted to make sure that like get a foot in the paint and start looking for other players. That's what happened in that finals game. They didn't make shots early. It was a close game early, but they were taking those shots. Arrowhead had the big guy right in the middle. So it was like a two to four game. Yeah. The first five minutes. Yeah, it was. And those same shots they started making, you know, because they took them early.

So it was just exciting to see.

And that leads us to Steve here. Yeah, so you've heard a little bit from our guest, Brown Deer High School alum, played Marquette Final Four freshman year, 11 years with the NBA and current Bucs analysis, Steve Novak. Welcome. Great to be here. Great to be out in good company, of course. Me and Steve came in together. Steve actually, you know, was one of my motivations because he got to campus.

probably two, three months probably ahead of me because he was closer. And he got the chance to. Oh, you want to come and lift the Scott Holst apple earlier with me. I was getting my butt kicked doing wall sits at 6 a .m. Joe was at graduation parties. Now he misses it. Yeah, but but.

Most college kids don't do that. You know, we wait till, you know, first, we don't know we could do that. But secondly, even if we knew, we probably wouldn't do it. You know, he wanted to to go get his butt kicked. He wanted to get integrated with the team. He was one of those guys that always wanted to work, even if we had four or five hour practices, which we did a lot. Oh, yeah, we did. He would come back. So did you you went?

You left after first semester of high school? No, I finished I finished my full senior year, but I literally remember, like Joe was saying, I remember having to leave a graduation party early. You know, it's that time of year you graduated. You're at the parties. Everybody's getting together. You're having fun. It's done with high school. Yeah. And I literally remember being like, I got to go home and go to bed.

I had to go lift at six a .m. We're talking like school just ended, right? On Friday. And it was like the weekend and it was like, I gotta go lift at six a .m. At Marquette. Like I've never really, but it was Coach Kareem was like, come on, let's get to it. And like Joe was saying, I lived right here in Brown Deer, so I was 15 minutes down the road. I got to the lift. I don't know how to park on the streets yet. I would be there parking. I'd get there like six minutes late. And Joe already knows.

Scott Holst, our strength coach, looked at me. I'm talking about this is my walking in the outside. He said on the wall. I said, what? Well, I don't know what that means. Six minutes late, six minute wall sit. And I'm sitting there. My legs are shaking. Did we have the bags yet? You remember the bag? No bags yet. I was still like one hundred and ninety nine pounds. They didn't bring out the sandbags to put on your legs. I was never late again. It was like if you're going to come late, you're going to really regret it. Your whole workout is going to be shot. Oh, and Steve, you.

to mention how he used to sleep. So we were in the old gym at the time, Marquette, and after those workouts he used to sleep.

office space and in the gym space and locker room. Just take a nap for a couple hours because those workouts, I'm telling you, were six in the morning and it was when you do an individual lift. Yeah. And you haven't worked like that before. And you're lifting to failure. Yeah. It's like bench press to failure with whatever weight it's you're doing neck resistance to failure to the point where you're everything is to failure. Yeah. And I'm coming out of high school. I just got done. I was working hard at Brown here.

I would be so exhausted and maxed out. I couldn't get my hands on the steering wheel. It sounds like something you make up, but I really couldn't drive home. I would have crashed into the wall. So I would go like Joe was saying, there were couches in our locker room and I would code in and I would lay on the couch thinking like my feeling and my arms are gonna come back and I would just fall asleep.

It would only be like 8 a .m. right. And I remember having the most vivid, wild dreams I've ever had in my life. I don't know what the science is there. But if you max out a lift at 6 a .m. and you take a nap at 8, I was I saw unicorns, fairies. I was and I wake up like what? And I would drive around here like mom. And what about those manual resistance neck workouts? So we have workouts sometimes where I didn't know that was a thing.

Me either. It required no weights. So those days you're thinking like, oh, this is going to be an easy day. It's no weights, no weights. You just, you know, manual resistance day to day. Put your arms to the side and they try to, you know, come up with it. Neck resistance. And after my freshman year, I realized that.

Those days are the ones you don't want the most. Yeah. Give us the weights back because everyone's is to failure. So how many you know someone's on your neck? You're trying to come up. It's what it sounds like. Someone's literally like Joe would be my partner. I would be laying on the bench and he would be pushing with his palm in my forehead. How many of these lifts do you think they do? They do zero these lifts today. Oh, God, no. Like everything we did for those four years, I don't think anyone does.

Some of the stuff we were doing would get phased out while we were still in school. The Blue Mile? Oh man. People would like, what happened to the Blue Mile? They're like, uh...

I don't think that was like they had back issues. Right. Like we had back issues, too. Some of us can't walk now because the farmer we had farmers walk, you know, Superman bag pulling a hundred pound punching bag down a bag down my hallway. Yeah. Malone hallway. You got a punching bag on your back and you got to go as fast as you can. You got a farmer's walk with two gasoline things. 100 pound tanks in your hands. You got that part of your hands.

or dislike can move. What Joe is describing was called the finisher. It was the blue. It was after you had already done all the resistance, the arms, legs, whatever. And now and now what is over?

And don't forget the play push to finish it to a mile play push, you know, 4550 you just doubt what about after they re carpeted the area where we were did the play because it was real. It was like real low and smooth. You could push it really easy. And then they came in one summer and re carpeted. Couldn't get down. It was like a 400 pound play. You wonder why Joe's pushing these kids in the boot camp? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's my payback. Yeah. Yeah. So.

You know, the first year we, I gotta tell this story before we get deeper into Steve, but our first, very first individual we had, me and Steve, and it was two other freshmen, Kaevon Bradley and Andy Front. Yeah.

Because Chris Grimm wasn't there. No, he wasn't there yet. He got lucky. It's in the old gym. The old gym is in June. So the old gym is probably around 105 degrees. No circulation, no fans. You know, this is a death trap in there and they know it. So they put 45 minutes, individuals with 45 minutes at the time. And you can look. It's a stairwell in the old gym that you can look up and see everyone's workout. And you can see if Coach Green is there and see if the other. Downstairs, we would just go up.

that we'd peek up and we'd look. Say, which coaches are here today? What do they do? What do we got? And to be honest, the workouts were never the same. It'll be four forwards together, then it'd be freshmen together, then it'd be all the guards. So you're like, OK, I think I know what we're doing today. You go up there, the workout's totally different.

45 minute workout. Their goal is to not let you get through that 45 minutes. Somebody's going to quit. They want you to somebody needs to drop out. So we do it all these random moves, you know, dribble moves from half court against the coach. And then you lay the ball up and then the coaches got a pad and you got a dribble move past them back to half court. It's like gladiators. No, no, really like Joe saying is gladiators to finish someone just beating you with the pad. Then you get the rebound and they.

beat you with the pad back to half court. Then your turn is up again. You're like, as soon as you hit half court, it's your turn again. Yep. And you sit in there like, man, I don't like I pull do this for 45 minutes. It's only four of us. Then we got one on one for court. Then we got two dribbles to, you know, finish from half court. So they just making these drills and the whole time is like.

lie lie lie lie

F them, but you trying to get through the drill, too. So it's like a break in moment. They trying to break you to be a part of the group. So we get to about 33, 34 minutes.

Karen Bradley, one of our good friends, played with us. Anytime he gets tired, he get donut lips. Like it gets real donut -y. So we're looking at You seen a few powdered donuts before? He'd be like, shut up, man. Shut up. He's dying in the corner. It starts on his side and then it just starts to fill up. So I see him. I'm like, oh, he's about to go down. So he went down and we had a guy, Andy Freund. And by go down, what Jordan means is like the psychology of it.

it is when we first get there, like you don't know they're trying to kill you or make you quit. So you're just going hard. You go hard and all of a you're like seven minutes in. Yeah. You can't breathe. You can't breathe. And eventually some. But then you start to realize after a few workouts like, oh, we're going to go until someone goes down. So it's sort of a psychological thing where you start to think like as it starts to get tough, you're like, who's going to go? I go down like, should I go down like who should go down to make? Let's get this over with. Like some.

Somebody needs to fall out. Yeah. Right. So you just sort of like act like they hit you with the pad wrong and you tweet your ankle or you act like I can't breathe for a minute. Like I need to sit out. I got to get some water. You panic. Something has to happen. Something has to happen for the group to be done. So they fall out. He falls out. He had cramps. You know, he always had cramps. He was just so he's a fool of ball muscle. Perfect. He's out. So I don't have to fall out. So we're like, yeah.

We got through it so far. Bring it in, fellas, we're done. Right. No, keep going. The clock's not done. It's just like, damn. So Andy Freund, he was the next one to go out.

You know, he sweats a lot, so he's just fatigue at this point. And he goes a thousand percent like he doesn't know how to. Now there's only three of us now for he doesn't know how to just sort of space it a little more. Preserve. He was going to run through whatever wall. And so his the biggest the problem with Andy Froy was we had to we had to like reassure him, don't worry, you'll pass out before you die. So he was like, I think he kind of was of the mindset like, oh,

OK, good. We were like, yeah, good, because you won't die. But bad because you need to slow down. He was like, I'm trying to pass out quick. Right. I get this over with. We're like, OK, Andy. But then there's only going to be two of us. That's not being a good teammate. Right. Like kick the ball and then go get it. Go get it. Tie your shoe. Like take a break. Oh, man. And that's what happened. Like he passed out on the court. Yeah. So everyone rushing over there. I remember him.

They trying to fan them off like, God damn, Andy, like, get some water. It was like his was like a phantom gunshot. It was under the rim. You know, like Joe is describing, when you go enough times, dribble moves, dribble moves, hit, hit, hit. And the pacing starts to get to the point you're like, Oh boy, I don't think I can. I think I'm done. I don't know. Andy, boom, he goes up, he gets hit. He got a solid hit from like Coach Dewayne Stevens, Coach Stevens. And he just got hit, went down. And we both knew it was over.

He wasn't even going to get up. That was it. Just yeah. And he was one of those guys that made like phantom noises like, ah, ah, ah, he's one of those guys. Yes. He was out. I thought he was dead. Yeah. You know, so he's dead. Yeah. So basically, they kind of just rode him to the side like, oh, whatever. Fan him off of condo like give him our trainer, like give him some water, like get him out. Right. It's about 15 minutes still left. This is.

This is the point of the story. This is the best I remember. Steve's going one way, I'm going the other way. And they just killing us at this point. It's about who falls out. He's got layups going this way, I got layups, gotta beat the cone, gotta beat the coach.

Boom, we looking at each other. We can't go for 15 straight minutes. Just two of us full. I think they might have had us going like, let's go full court. It was full court. Yeah, you're going this way. I was going the other way. There is no like, oh, just constant. You can't stop. We're already max. These dudes are already one has donut mouth. One got shot and me and Joe go ahead. Like you say, I remember this and they're screaming stuff at us. Oh, you're from Brown, dear. You from Chicago. You guys are not tough. And we're like, all right, we're going to try to do

So I'm starting looking at Steve, he's going this way, I'm going the other way. I'm starting to look at him like, all right, come on.

We got to do this. And we both know what the look means. Like, hey, we're looking like, hey, I'm from Brown Deer. I'm not falling out. He's looking like I'm from Chi Chi. Yeah. Yeah. Like we're not doing this. I'm not falling out. But then we're both the look starts to change. Like, hey, man, like what you want do here into each other. Like, how do you want to end this? Like wrestling. Like, how do you want to end this? Like, what's our end plan? Yes. So we both end up falling at the same time. I swear he's going. He's going one way.

I'm going the other way. We just dropped. So it's probably like seven minutes left on the clock for those seven minutes. They just, Oh, you guys not tough enough, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just sitting there like, thank God, say whatever you want to say. Soon as the timer went off. Great job, guys. You just had the best workout ever. You like, I'm going do this for four years. You know, it was just unbelievable. The length that they wanted you to come in as the culture.

They already tried to build a culture. We were just like the missing pieces that was left of a final 14 that we're diving to. But that was the first day I was like, did I really?

prepare myself enough for what was coming for four years. No, no, no, there was no preparation unless you had done Navy SEAL. People say like, oh, well, don't compare the military to let me tell you something. I'm not talking about war versus basketball. I'm talking about training. Right. Right. It was not that different. No, we were running outside, you know, in the rain until someone passes out. We run around. We're doing burpees in the mud. In the mud.

in the rain until someone quits and then everyone starts looking like, who? Who's gonna be the one? Did you guys have a fall guy? Did you have a guy It was always a fall guy. Oh yeah, you had to have a fall It was a different guy each time. Yeah, it can't be the same guy. Yeah, it can't be the same guy. No, because they leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just all at the same Yeah, you can't do that. But then as soon as somebody quits, then it would turn into, you'd be like, oh good man, we can be done. And then it would turn into, if someone quit, they're like, I'm out. Or they're like, I leave.

Then it was like no one stops until they come back. And then you weren't sure if you were ever going to stop. You're like, come back. He might have just left time. He might have quit the team. He ran away from this. Yeah. You might be doing burpees till February. I mean, our four years, we probably had 12 players, you know, and probably like five to six coaches who left. I mean, it's.

It's a gauntlet. Is that pretty much the culture of all the big colleges, or is that just a Kareem thing? No, I think it was a culture of that time, of the bigger schools. That's just the way they were brought up, the coaching staff. And it paid off. I mean, we're not saying anything that we regret. I mean, if you asked me to do it again, I probably couldn't. But there's a word hot yoga. But that time, that's what they were doing. I mean, Coach Kareem was in his mid -30s.

I mean, this is where he came from Michigan State. I mean, this was the culture of Taro and football at basketball practice. War drills and physicality. And like Joe was saying, it was more of a psychological development to be able to get you to believe that you could overcome anything when you just watch guys fall out in workouts. I think like the point was you have to experience that you didn't or that you made it all the way through because I think your training.

You know warriors trying to be the toughest basketball team other so to Joe's point like we joke about and talk about it like we were abused right because we were Sure to a certain degree, but at the same time I think like it makes you so grateful that yeah You realize you could never push yourself to that point now have to have somebody who's a leader and you know has the vision that we're gonna turn you into this kid from Brown Deer who doesn't really like that much contact into like a yep, you got to be able to withstand these kind of workouts and you got to find a way to

to fight through because yeah, you have to be able to rebound the ball and you have to be able to handle the ball and you got to be able to handle pressure and you got to be able to to a high enough degree that you can be great at what your skill set is. Yes, it's like that's that's before because I want to get to how you start, you know, but you just said something about Coach Kareem that is so true that he gets the best out of you that you don't know that's in you. The first big East game that we had the the.

night before or two days prior we had practice to prepare for you. The day before the day before we're playing you kind of number two in the country is our first big hits game first inaugural big East game. Marquette do they belong? So schools came over from Conference USA. Yeah, yeah, it was the first game play number two. You can. Let's see who the conference you are saying. Oh my God. They were loaded. Was it OK for that team? No. The other big one, Josh Boone.

They had like Villanueva. No, no Villanueva. Who was the point guard who stole the laptop? Yeah, yeah, Lyskid. Marcus. He had stole the laptop. He was all American. It was his first game back. Yeah. He had just come off a suspension from stealing laptops. If there was NIL, there wouldn't have been a problem. And we have practice, you know, and we're preparing it. And coaches is going at Steve now.

Just like now in practices people are able to watch. They'll come in and watch practice. We probably had like 40, 50 there just to watch our practice and prepare for UConn.

And he's just going at Steve. He's going at all of us. We kind of expect it, but he's really going at Steve today. He's going at him about he's not tough enough. We got Josh Bull tomorrow. Like who are you going to guard? You know, you're not rebounded enough. Like you got to he had to end a drill by dunking. Yeah. So we sit there. See, he's got a dunk. It's like, oh, this is just we're going to have a terrible day. He's just very worried to kick Steve out of practice. Meanwhile, this is a lot of people watching.

like, oh my God, what are they doing? Like they play the next They have a game tomorrow like this is they're, he's going to kill these guys. But that's the psychology that coach Kareem plays on us. Like he knows that stuff. And he knew what we needed to do to be prepared to play in that league.

And the next day was just, it's in history. I mean, we beat the number two team. Steve, you had 40 or 42 and 16. 41 and 16. 16 rebounds. 16 rebounds. And that was just like, and UConn didn't know what to do. Now this is an era where Steve was kind of a unicorn. So he's coming off triple screens, down screens and Josh Boone and Hilton Armstrong are trying to guard him.

off all these screens and transition that ghost screens and Steve was doing things that you see everybody kind of want to model now. It just wasn't normal to do.

So when you see a two man game where is Dominic James and Steve Novak on the empty side? Well, what are you supposed to do there? You can't hedge cuz he's gonna go screen to the corner. So that game kind of made us realize like, okay, we get what coach is doing. We realize it and it paid off dividends for us. But I wanna dive into how you started playing.

Who was your motivation? Obviously, your dad was a coach at Brown Deer. Your sister played basketball and she played, Andrea played D2 ball, Michigan Tech. Yeah, Michigan Tech. And your brother played D2 ball too, right? Yeah. This is a basketball family. So just talk about how you grew up and what was your influences and how that came out to be.

For me, like you just described, I was so blessed to grow up in what I would just call a basketball family. I think a lot of people listening probably, I think they would consider themselves coming from basketball families. And I think when I say that, it was essentially like when I was born.

There was a basketball in my in my crib. There was a basketball hoop in the basement. We had a basketball hoop out in the driveway. And, you know, my pops was a high school coach. So the thing that I think when I think back to like, how was I raised? What were my basketball influences? What what impacted what basketball, you know, really became and still is in my life? How did that come to be? You know, to your to your point, to your question.

It's my dad. We joke about Papa Mike, you know, at the games. It was the fact that that was his life. He was a coach. He was a teacher. He was in the schools like I had a key to the gym. I hung out with my dad. I would go from kindergarten. My mom would pick me up, drop me off over at my dad's high school practices. And that was the environment that I grew up in. You know, and I think so to me, when I think back to like, what is the most shaping, most impactful piece of of the way I grew up? It was the fact that my dad was always in an environment.

that included the gym.

And so for me to be around the gym in the gym, sometimes I was shooting, sometimes I wasn't. Sometimes I was just hanging out. But I think that like it's in my opinion, like equally impactful just to have been in an environment that I was safe and healthy and having a good time and with my dad. It was the I associated the you know, the school system with my dad, the school buildings, the gym with my dad. And so I loved being.

there in those places with them. And so I think that's the one thing I'm so grateful for is just to be to grow up in that environment. You know, that's how I learned to love basketball was asking my dad for 50 cents to go to the vending machine to get some licorice. And I would open it up, put it on the gym floor while his team was practicing and eat the licorice off the floor. And I think back, I was in the gym getting shots up and do it.

I was eating candy off the floor. But I think those associations, the love of the gym, the love of like had a basketball in my hand is essentially I think as important for me in my development as the actual skill work that Joe was describing where we were getting killed by Coach Kreen and Marquette. That part matters.

But I think I got to that point because my associations were so positive with hoops. My environment with my pops was hoops. And so like you said, he brought along my older sister, my little brother, my younger sister. And so that was really my basketball upbringing. And I grew up in Brown Deer my whole life. And that was really where it took place. So that was the beginning of the love of the game and where it, I think, stems from in the Novak family. Yeah. Was there a club basketball then?

There was, but you know, like very different. I think back to, you know, if you fast forward, obviously kind of talking about like me as a youngster, no real club basketball. You know, it was like I played at the YMCA Schrader YMCA at Brown Deer and then, you know, ended up, you know, playing a little P other Pee Wee basketball. But like by the time when I played AAU, which would be considered, you know, club, I played for a team that was some guys from Green Bay, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Milwaukee area. We were just sort of.

There wasn't no cell phones. We would all talk to each other, figure out a way to, the parents would find a way to practice. And we had one team, you know, no amazing clubs like Chapman to just go sign up for when I was playing. So it was literally a...

a group of guys from Wisconsin getting together once a week and practicing at Sheboygan North or at Bayport or at Brown Deer. Yeah. And playing. And so, you know, a very different environment at that time. Was it just basketball to your whole life or were you other any other sports? I was I was everything. You know, it was like I specialized, I think, at the time when I was like, I made the decision like I love basketball. This is what I want to I want to do. But really, like my dad, that being said, as a basketball coach, my dad coached baseball. He.

He coached track and field, he coached football. He was an athletic director, so he was involved in all the sports. So for me growing up, it was never, ever like you play basketball, you're gonna be this or you're gonna... I played volleyball, I ran a track, I played full contact flag football at... What was it?

St. Bernadette's. Ran track and field, played little, you know, so I did everything really through not all of those through eighth grade, but some of those all the way through eighth grade. And so then in like eighth grade is really when I was like, I want to get a college scholarship for basketball. I want to specialize in in hoops just because I was I was spending that amount of time, you know, working on the side and doing my own stuff at that point. So that was kind of when I decided I wanted to do it. But I definitely think that playing up

sports had a lot to do with you know just my all -around development and the fact that I was at an age where

I had decided that was the one thing I wanted to do, which I think there's the struggle now. I see it with Joe's boys and my boys too, just some of the scheduling to try to figure out how you can make it all work. But I think it's a beautiful thing to do more than one thing for really, to me, as long as you can. Can you imagine trying to schedule stuff nowadays back then without cell phones? The way your schedule is now without cell phones and computers and stuff? I couldn't imagine. No. Yeah. It was a lot of...

caller IDs and phone calls. Hey, can you guys be in Sheboygan next Tuesday at six? I'll call you back. Yeah. So tell us about who did you model your game after at an early age and who gave you the idea of I can be a stretch forward and were you always the tallest growing up?

When you started playing. Yeah. For me, the influences on my game were 100 percent my dad's high school players. You know, I just think back to like the the guys that were my heroes. People say like, you know, who who what NBA teams did you watch and who are your NBA guys that you love? Like, to be honest, growing up, I watched high school basketball, you know, multiple times a week. And it was with my dad at practice. It was with him at games. I was his ball boy and his manager. And so for me, it was like,

The guys I loved were the shooters that played for my dad at Brown Deer High School. I'm a 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 year old. And whether you're a 6 foot 5 guy or a 5 foot 10 guy, the guys I love were the guys getting buckets, making threes. And so the truth is, those were the guys that.

Yeah, I wouldn't even say like I modeled my game after, but those were the guys that their game spoke to me that I was like, I love that about basketball. I love that excites me seeing, you know, like one of my dad's point guards come off and bang down a three or, you know, a swing swing and the guy hits a corner. Like the three point shot was always like so exciting to me. That's what I loved. And so I didn't I was always like you asked. I was the tallest kid, always grown up. I was like six, five and eighth grade. Mm hmm. I was.

I was as tall as I am now at like six, nine, six, 10 by my sophomore year, but I was always a tall kid. So people always did say like, you know, you should post up more. Oh, you should be a big guy. And I get it rightfully so as far as what basketball is a spet or was especially then. Right. But I think, you know, to my dad's credit.

And I'm not sure I wasn't too stubborn a kid. I think I was going to probably get my way either way because I just loved shooting. But he had no point said, like, I'm glad you like to shoot, but you need to go put you back to the basket. We got to throw it in and work on the drop step. Like my dad was a big man when he played it. He played at Carroll College. So, of course, he of course, he had me doing the Mike and drill and doing drop step drills and doing little, you know, Kareem half hooks and stuff like that, because that was what he loved. But in no just from a skill set to develop those those things.

But I love to shoot and so he never said like you shouldn't do that or that's not good for you and

You know, to his credit, I think it just, it would have, I would have played such a lesser role in my career and I would have played so many fewer years if I ended up being like a 215 pounds, six foot 10 guy that wasn't really a big enough big to play at the highest level. You know, like you were saying, Joe, stuff we were doing against Yukon, we're running bigs off screens and they're getting caught up in it. I was ahead of the curve.

as a big fellow shooter because it was it was who I was from when I was very young. I just always loved letting it go and shooting it. I think it 100 percent with the way the game changed. It put me at a huge advantage. Yeah. As far as like playing for as long and as successfully as I possibly could. So obviously where the game is at now. Yeah. Seeing our guy, you know, Sam Howser just on Sunday against the Washington Wizards guy goes for 30 points. He made 10 threes. All of his points were.

And God bless them. But it's like, am I jealous? Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of old school guys go like, oh, man, I wish I get that money and I want. Yeah, the money is kind of crazy. I'd like to have a little bit of that back to as much as they're making. But I just want the I want the volume. I am shooting. I want the shots. He's getting up 10 makes off the bench. Off the bench. These guys, it's like it's amazing. It's just an obviously part of it makes me just so proud to feel like I was a trailblazer in a lot of ways. You know, when you.

look at like guys that are six, nine, six, 10 that shot it. You know, like I was one of those guys that I think made it go. You go like one, those guys can shoot it and two, like it's really valuable. Yeah, they can. It's a matchup problem. And so, you know, just seeing where the game is that now it is it's it's exciting for a guy like you who always enjoyed playing that when you said, who do you eliminate your game after or whatever? I think back early days, the NBA was popular, but it wasn't until Jordan came where he was. All right. I want to be like that guy.

And that's when I think you started associating yourself with certain players in the NBA as when Jordan came on the scene early 90s is when the NBA took off. That's who I want to be like. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I think all of us as kids had those people we look towards and say, can I have a little fraction of their games inside of mind?

And I think that's important for all kids to have that is to dream as big as you can. And whatever your skill set starts to be, start to perfect it. Because that's what I think you did, Steve, is you perfected your skill set like no other person that I've seen before. I mean, there would be times we come back, I come back from overseas and your season's over and we'd be in a gym for hour or two hours just at the aisle just shooting. And that's something that you've always done.

So talk about like the perfection of your craft and how much time it took, you you it was still a taboo I'm watching college basketball and Steve was in the three -point contest

And he's the biggest guy out there. So everyone's like, oh, he's shooting 45%, 50 % from three. But they wasn't saying it like he was about to win this competition. They were just saying it like he was that good in college from shooting. So when the competition started, you could just see how, boom, one shot, next shot, the crowd just started getting bigger and standing up because it was like he was making 10, 11, 12 in a row. But that was something you were doing in college.

you were perfecting how to shoot off the rack. You were perfecting how to shoot off the dribble where it wasn't normal back then to take a shot off the dribble. You know, so let's talk about how much time you started to perfect knowing that this is what I was going to be. Yeah, you know, in the way you're describing it is just so true. Like it was just something I truly had a passion for. Like I realized, I think at a at a young enough age, one, I think for me to be really successful playing.

the sport of basketball like shooting was where I was gonna have my most success I was never like the fastest kid I was athletic enough

But I think the combination of realizing like there's more athletic guys out there that I'm facing and the fact that like I just have a passion for shooting. Yeah, it made me I would say like in eighth grade. And like I had said, that was kind of when I decided to specialize in basketball and say, I'm going to commit more time. Like I want to. This is what I want to spend time doing. I love it. I want to shoot more. I want to be able to play one with my friends more. I want to be able to play more summer hoops. I want to play more winter hoops. Like this is what I want. Yeah. At that point. And it really was like in eighth grade, you start to play in summer.

some of the tournaments, you start to see how many teams and you start to see there's some really good other players out there. Yeah. And so I, I set the goal for myself in eighth grade that every single day after school, I was going to come home, get my homework done, get something to eat. And I was going to make 300 shots every day after school. And so it was like, what's the number I said that all these kids in New York and all these kids in Florida and all these kids in Texas, what's the number that they're not going to be doing? Because I was like, at that point I had the mindset, like, what do I need to do?

to truly be as good as I want to be, a varsity player, a D1 scholarship, and I had dreams to play in the NBA. And I thought it was make 300. I thought that was a number. I'm like, other kids are not going to be willing to do that.

And so I set that goal to make 300 shots every single day after school. People said like, Oh, did you do you mean you shot 300 shots or you made 300? And for me, it was like, I thought any kid in New York City on the playground and they were always the kids in my mind because I knew that culture of basketball, how many people were playing. I was like, I gotta be better than these guys in New York. And so to me, I was like, anybody can go miss 300 on the playground and they won't be better than me. But if I'm making 300, I'm like, that takes time. And so I was in the, I had a half

court in my backyard or obviously my pops had keys to the gym, but it was usually in the backyard. I would shoot, I go get my rebound, I dribble it back out, I'd shoot again. I counted everything but layups, you know, it was mid range, it was three pointers and obviously that's what I love to shoot. But that was the first piece for me that I think it was like.

I showed myself, I think the commitment I had, the passion I had, and also just like it was the first like real goal that I had for myself to try to, I think, separate myself from what I in my head looked at as every other basketball player my age in the world. I was like, that's the thing I'm going to do. And it was just an early goal for me in eighth grade to say like, I need to get these reps and I would say like.

The 300 shots. I don't even know that like that number is something that I would say like 300 is so important. That's what you should do if you want to be great. Right. You know, I think was I shooting game speed the whole time? Like not really. But I would. And so I think from that standpoint, maybe 100 would have been a better number. But I do think the time that I spent making the 300, that's it took me two, two and a half hours to do that every day. And I look back and I think about like the aha moments, the epiphanies that I had during those two and.

two, two and a half, which I thought was it was like good for my mind. I was in I was thinking about the other players. I was thinking about who I wanted to be. I was dreaming about things I want to accomplish. It was like I was reinforcing over those two hours every day, like how important it was to me. And I was doing it again the next day. And it was, you know, I have music on and it was just so it was very therapeutic, I think, and healthy when I think back. And so I do think that like spending that amount of time doing something to you teach yourself a lot of things.

that someone else can't teach you. Like you, when you become the master of your craft, you become your best teacher. And so like my pops was my coach and my teacher at that time. But when I was spending two hours every single day shooting, like no one could tell me more about my shot than me. And so I started to realize, like, hold on, if I hold my file, you know, just simple stuff that you hear, but unless you really know and experience that you don't, if I hold my follow through like, man, I'm I'm really more consistent with my shot. Like,

Man, if I have my elbow under like this, it really goes where I want it to go more effortlessly. If I just turn my body just a little bit this way on my shot, it's amazing how much more fluid my shot can be inconsistent and repeatable. And that's stuff you just don't realize unless you spend like hours and hours and hours on your own. Yeah, I can tell you as a young kid at basketball camp, hey, turn your body, hey, follow through and keep your elbow under. OK, great. Thanks, Coach Novak. But I think putting it into effect.

and making it make you make shots in the game. That comes from, hey, you gotta put the time in it. So like that's my, that was my passion. And it really still is, you know, like working camps, you know, so many camps with you and coaching my son right now and hosting a shooting competition across the state of Wisconsin. Like it's the one thing that like no one can tell me I'm not an expert. Cause listen, I'll tell you, I'm an expert about a lot of things. We can talk about politics and religion and science and art. And I'll tell you, I'm an expert. But, but.

But the truth is, that's the avenue that I'm an expert. And it's not because I say I am, it's because I've spent the time, you know, whatever, the Malcolm Gladwell, 10 ,000 hours, who knows, I don't know how many hours and reps I've had or taken, but I just, I know for a fact that it's like the path that I've taken. I love to be able to talk to kids and talk to groups and say, this is what it worked for me. My point is, it's a version that is absolutely proven to be successful.

Yours won't be the same, but I want to share my story and the way I worked and the things that I learned because I think that they can impact you in a really positive way so that you can find your version in your way and all those things. And so...

I think for me basketball and specifically shooting has been that and I think it's just a beautiful thing. Yeah, and you had that in college as well where after our grueling practices you still got up shots, you still were able to find ways to get better on your own because it was something that was in you already before you got to college. So that discipline and structure that most of us learn in college, you were fortunate to already have that.

myself for instance, I shot 50 % from three in high school. So I knew I can shoot the ball. And then you meet somebody else who's 6 '9", and who's a better shooter, and you're like, that's different. And you realize that at an early age where, okay, how do you be successful around other successful people? How do you make, that's what makes special teams. Meeting a person like a D Wade,

you're like, oh, that dude's different. I've seen a lot of 6 '4", 6 '5 guys. I ain't never seen nobody like that. And you kind of see it early. People are just different. And to embrace your different is sometimes a taboo. Because in college, you're like, yeah, college is over. I'm going to put the gun up, and I'm going shoot for another hour. You're like, man, I don't know how to do that.

dude can do that, I'm out of here. We just died in here. But that was his dedication. And even when you got older, there was less time, but it was more.

It was more, it was harder, you know, so we did a 50 minutes to an hour, but it wasn't no breaks in between, you know, so we just went harder and harder. Um, so, but talk about like your longevity, your, your willingness to adapt, um, you know, playing 11 years, you played in the NBA 11 years, 11 different teams, nine different teams. So it depends how many you're counting. Yeah, it was 11, but that's adjustment every year having to move.

Every year new coaches every year new systems every year new teammates, you know every year You know some of your kids that were born had to go different places right putting houses on the market and buy a new house Talk about that experience of being in, you know, nine different places in 11 years the journey, you know that takes Yeah, it really was an awesome job. I think you know, we all when I say we I mean guys like me and you that you know Play at the at the highest level. There's no question. We dreamed to be able to try

to play a game for a living. I mean, that's the ultimate dream and you and I have been blessed to, you know, both have been able to do that. And I think.

You know, the 11 year journey, it was such a blessing and mine was a little bit different because like you said, like the longevity of it and being able to have done it for a long time, it was just interesting because as we're talking about shooting and with where we've seen shooting start, say by start, I mean like when I got drafted in 2006 to where it is now.

Shooting is just, it's considered something so different and more valuable and useful and analytically proven to be a good thing than it was in 2006.

And so for me, like the longevity of my career is interesting because like basically every year that I was in the league, the league was continuing to trend more and more towards shooting. So like there was the thing I just think of like to our point, if I played now, if I could have played 20 years and still be playing right now, it's like how valuable would a skill set be of a 610, you know, 47 % three point shooter be? That is the ultimate piece right now. We use Sam Howser as an example. You know, I think he is an absolute

very similar player to who I was. And so to see the volume he gets up, to see that in his, I think he's in his third year right now, to see the way he's been pushed forward in a beautiful, good way versus for me, I played for Jeff Van Gundy my first year. He doesn't love playing rookies, fine, but he's a defensive coach, not in love with the three point shot, more of an old school game. I was fortunate to then play for Rick Adelman in my second season. He was more of a shooting coach and he like,

liked the shooters and that kind of thing. But I say all that to just say like I played for so many great coaches, Mike D 'Antoni, Mike Woodson, Coach Popovich, Coach Carlisle, Billy Donovan, Jason Kidd. So all these different guys throughout my career. But as the time went on, it was like more and more of a we need you to do what you do. We want you on the court more, we want you to shoot more. So I was so blessed and thankful that I was one of those guys that was doing something that my skill set was we like it, we want it.

more of it, we want you out there more. So I was blessed in that, in that fact, and my joke of it is, and if I was still playing today, it would literally still be trending that way with teams. Right. Boston Celtics just made 25 out of 53. You know, two games ago, I mean, that's, that's where it's at. 25 is a huge number and 50 is a huge number. And so, uh, it was a beautiful thing, I think to be wanted, you know, I think when I look at playing for 11 years on nine different teams, you either, either nobody, the joke is no, either nobody wants you.

or everybody wants you and I tend to think it was more of the everybody wants you and because of the skill set that I had.

You know, just being able to be under that many different systems and to see all those different approaches and kind of the impact that it has on a guy like me who I had a skill set. And if you were a coach who you wanted me to be a guy who did what I did best and you focused on what I did well, I was a guy that could really help your team. Yeah, I was a guy that could score points for you. I could stretch the floor. I could be a huge distraction on offense. If you've got stars, I could be a guy that made you.

pay if they were disrespectful. I wasn't the best defensive player and so there's no question. It was like if you saw the things I couldn't do then at times earlier my career.

I would sit more. And I think like that part of the journey was very like, I learned a lot about like when you focus on the things that guys do do well, what it can bring out. I think about my New York years, when you emphasize like Mike D 'Antoni did what each guy does well, and that's why you play. And if you play for a coach who they see the things that you don't do well, because each guy in the league has stuff they do well and stuff they don't do well. And if you focus on the stuff that they do well, it's a

what you can bring out of guys and there's certain other coaches that say like you do a great job at this but you don't do don't do don't do it so we just can't have you out there too much and you focus on the negative yeah so it's shaped I think the way I coach kids the way that I have you kids now and you know some of the stuff you talked about early on with you know Nolan Minnesota too you know like seeing what he can do seeing what he'll be continue to be able to do I think is just is so impactful and so you know the 11 -year journey for me has just been to be

around that many teammates with that many coaches at a time when the league was and still is you know evolving just I've been able to take away so many little things from the experiences that were negative with coaches that I didn't love playing for as well as coaches who I love playing for like the Mike Dantonis and the coach Papa bitches there's stuff that I use with my seventh grade CBA team now as far as like defensive concepts that coach Papa bitch implemented and so

It's just I'm so thankful to have had those interactions. So many different cities, so many different teammates, so many different philosophies, because it makes you realize in the game of basketball, there's not just one way to do anything right. There's not one way to break the zone defense. There's not one style of silent out of bounds. There's not one style of leadership, even like from an accountability standpoint. I saw a coach that were super lax on accountability and others that were superstrict. And I'm telling you now it's.

doesn't always equate to like that team was a winner, that team is a loser. It's some very interesting stuff with that where I just think that the NBA is an amazing place because there's no one there at that level that's playing that just kind of squeaked through the cracks. It wasn't really worthy of being there. And I think now in the NBA, more than ever, that's one of the coolest parts that I see is that there's no one that's playing at the NBA level.

There you go. Like, ah, he's just taller. Oh, just said, no, each one of these guys has overcome. Yeah, something thousands and thousands of guys to be where they're at. And so I think it's just cool to watch who makes it through and how from a coaching perspective and from a player perspective. But, you know, basketball is just this this endlessly awesome world. We can always be learning. It's always evolving. And it's just I'm grateful to, like you said, have had.

The journey from being a youngster with my pops growing up, to getting our heads beat in at Marquette, to playing with guys like legends like Dwayne Wade, to an 11 year NBA journey. And I'll be doing camps and clinics and shooting competitions with you, with CBA.

So I don't expect it to end anytime soon. Right. We were talking a lot about shooting and earlier I was talking with Max free got here that there's some people that are eliminating the five position and stuff because of the shooting. Right. You got, I don't think Al Horford would be a big man if he was a knocking down the threes or brook. If he was a knocking down the threes, what is the role of a five now in the NBA? If you can't shoot the three, you know, you look at Andre Drummond, he's not the player he was before people were shooting, you know? Right. Well, the all three of those guys that you.

mentioned are shooters now. Exactly. Like Brooke Lopez. He didn't take a three. You know, his first like seven years in the league. Now look where he is now. He make one for I think his first six and he only made three in his first eight. And he was really good. Right. Made all -star teams. I mean, it wasn't... Look at Andre Drummond. I mean, now he's shooting threes for the Bulls. That's wild. I mean, it's like, when he first came in, you would never think. He was the big... Right. He'd get you 20 rebounds.

Al Horford coming out of Florida, you know playing for the Atlanta Hawks. He wasn't doing any other stuff that he he's corner spacing now for corner threes, you know, and that's what

This game is just so involved that five positions got to be able to do a lot. Or you got to be like the joker who still can shoot or bam. And those guys who have the ball in their hand so that, you know, and then I think Golden State revolutionized the four or five spot by planning that pinch post by throwing a ball, you know, because they don't play off the post. They they a little bit like, yeah, they throw it to the post. Yeah. To initiate action. That wasn't normal.

back then. Obviously, the Bulls did a little bit of that with the triangle, throwing it to Cartwright and Luke Longley and working off of that with the triangle. But Steve Kerr brought that right back with throwing it to the fours and fives and making them decision makers. Even Marquette like also. Yeah. Also, they play with the pocket and they run it through him. Yep. And that's that's what Miami does with Bam at the top. That's what Joker does. I mean, Joker really is the point guard of that group. I mean, they throw it to him and he makes all the decisions. So I think that that five position is just so.

different than what we saw Moses Malone and Kareem and these type of guys. It has faded the game a little bit. Shaq, even Shaq. Yeah, yeah. Even like his last stretch when he bounced the Celtics. You can't play him anymore. Do we think this is?

Overall, I shouldn't say bad, but making it this is how you have to play basketball and eliminating different varieties and different schemes, especially at the NBA. Yeah, I think the two point shot is a lost art. Yeah. Right. And there's just a Rosen's game as a lost art. Yeah. If you turn on an NBA game, you know, you're getting probably 85 threes between the two teams and whoever makes more will win the game probably. And maybe the free throw line. Yeah.

I think it's that bad. I think it's going to go back. I would love to hear your take on it. No, just right off what you're saying. I think, you know, to me, the really interesting part about this conversation about your point about 80, we're going to are we're going to see 85 threes is I mean, first of all, I think what we're talking about with the big fellas is that to me, that's just like the three point evolution of the game where it went from about 13 years ago. There this is real. There was not a team in the NBA making 10 three pointers.

There was no one 13 years ago making 10 as a team. Now, there's no team in the NBA making.

So it's literally just right. It's flipped. The lowest shooting volume three point two teams are now making more than the highest three point two teams were just like about a decade ago. And so like the evolution to me, it's by evolution. I mean, it's just such a healthy thing for the league to evolve in a way where you're like.

They've found a way to score more. They've found a way because you don't evolve in that direction if teams aren't having success. And so Joe, to your point with the Golden State Warriors being evolutionary, like there were teams shooting threes before Golden State. I was on the next team that was shooting it, to be honest, at the highest volume then. That was like 10, 11, 12 made threes per game with JR Smith and Jeremy Lynn and those guys.

But to see, I think that the Golden State Warriors show that you're not settling when you shoot a three. You can actually win a championship. Because you remember the the the. And Lennox was saying we you couldn't win if you take that settle you settle and we can throw it to the big fella. Right. You can't be shooting these bad shots out here. That's I mean, that was not that long ago. That was absolutely what the narrative was. And I mean, like the most common mind would go, yeah, you're settling. We get a better shot than that. But what is better mean? Right. It's like if you're

trying to win games and like you're saying, you're going to get 85, 90 field goal attempts up. You start to work backwards with math and analytics. And the truth is like, those are really good shots. Golden State proved that. And they showed it to everybody. You can win at the highest level. And I think it changed the game from the youth game. I think it changed the girls game. I think it changed the guys game of how they played the game because it kind of hurts sometimes because you get a lot of kids that forget the process. Like Steve was talking about a making 200, 300.

you're at mid range and inside your avenue and where you should be focusing on your form and stuff like that. But it helped revolutionize it because kids.

can dream and say, I can do that. Well, what do you see when you come into a gym before practice? What are they doing? Oh, they're chucking threes. Chucking threes. That's All they're doing is chucking threes. It's more fun, like you were saying. The miking drill. Yeah, when you grew up, is this more fun? It's more talked about now. And it's changed the whole game. So kids making, let's say high school kids, they're making 90 to 100 threes now.

My high school senior year, I made 78, 79. And that was like different. You were high volume. Right. People were like, that's different. Like you made damn near 83s in high school. Now kids are doing that.

They're shooting 83s by about time middle of the season is up. What do you think about moving the three point line back a little bit for high school? Kids are knocking them down at college. Why not move the line? Yeah, and we talk about it. Me and Max talk about it how we want our spacing. And when we talk about Steve's team and U13, U14, we wanted that the NBA to college line as opposed to toes on the.

high school line even at the state tournament there. Yeah. You know, they saw the college. If there's more than one line on the court, they're taking the. Oh, they're going to take the matter where the half court. The half court lines the only line there. Yeah, but go back. Do you can you imagine pistol Pete and those guys having a three point line? No, I'm do Jerry West. Those were shooting deep. Those were those were bad shots. Terrible shots. Terrible. I'm saying analytically. Yeah, that's worth the same.

I want to hear your take on I heard this I think JJ Reddick said it with the rule changes with you can't touch anyone and how everyone can shoot now when the NBA do you think like in Europe that they should allow

get rid of the three seconds and illegal defense with how evolved the game is now. Should we go back to how everyone else has taught the game before you get to the NBA, as opposed to having different rules for the NBA? Yeah, I think the -

The way that the NBA has done it obviously has been the leader in sports where it went from and those decisions are based on as much entertainment, I think, as they are for the good of basketball. And I think the players, they pretty much kind of guide the way that these, you know, it's like when guys are throwing elbows at each other's faces and everyone's breaking their nose. Well, fellas, we're going to probably change the rules to like, you know, we're going to the objections are going to be bigger. The fines are going to be bigger. You know, James Harden creates this.

sweeping rule or you're gonna change the rule. And so I think, you know, to those kind of conversations. I kind of started with Sam Casal, though, right? Yeah. Yeah. Dive into the way. Yeah. Figure that move out, too. Because I mean, players at the NBA level, it's incredible how they can adapt to either what a rule or rules aren't out there and take advantage or when the rules are, how quickly they can just change. Because I was a part of every preseason meeting for 11 years where they come in and the ref.

referees meet with every single team and they talk about points of emphasis.

And it's amazing from stuff like we're not going to allow guys to egregiously, you know, air punch or flail at the referees. We're going to give them technicals. I mean, guys were doing air punches and we were mad about calls after a bad call over and over and over for years. And there was no technical files. There was no whatever. All of a sudden, one summer they decided for entertainment sake, fans don't like watching guys be egregious and demonstrative with their flailing like that's a bad call. They say like, knock it off. Grow up. They didn't like the image. They told me.

the guys were going to give you tease every time a guy flailed as did air punch technical file within a month. No one air punched again. Right. Right. Because they called everything and called it all and the guys adjust. And I think it's the same. It's like guys see what a euro step is like, hold on, hold on. What is that? Now everybody can do a euro step. They just, they, you know, had the sweep through rule. Like we were talking about with James Harden. It was like before it was called a sideline out, every guy started to sweep through. They changed the rule. Yeah. It's not as

valuable anymore, it's sidelined out, it's not shooting foul. Guys just stop doing this this week because it's not as valuable anymore. So it's amazing just to see like the way the league adapts and changes the rules and the way the players not only are the reason for the adaptation but also are they have the ability to whatever the rules are they can overcome. And I think James Harden done a great job of

I don't give him a lot of credit. I was not one of my favorite players, but he's done a great job of like figuring out what to get away with. Like he was one of those guys who he would pay refs to come in his workouts to figure out, can I do this gather step? Like he's the reason we got the gather to the one to write out of like high school. You just got one to college one to like NBA. They got the gather step into a step back. Like he, he realized like, okay, I can get away with a little bit more.

and he kind of you know made this new era of how they kind of play now.

So we were talking on a couple earlier podcasts about the college game, how players are not ready coming into the NBA. You guys were talking earlier about how tough it was, and you couldn't do that stuff now. How many kids would be in the portal if they ran a practice like you guys? Everyone. And that's why the And we talk about the girls' game being better, because they spent four years in college, and they're not going school to school. How do you see the college players being ready watching your NBA games?

and you know, you know, I do, I do think it's, it's hard to prepare from college to the NBA. And for a lot of the reasons we're saying there's, there's this, there's this whole space in the NBA that's so elevated as far as the guy's ability to do the sweep throughs and to shoot the ball from 45 feet away where that wasn't allowed. And you know, the isolation pick and roll and the defensive coverage is it's just the space on the floor. And a lot of the rules, the, the, some of the stuff you were just kind of talking about the three, the defensive three seconds and.

all those kinds of things where I just think to be prepared for all that is really tough while you're trying to be successful at the college game. And so I do think like you have to be as good as you can be in college. And a lot of the colleges are doing more NBA type schemes and that kind of thing. But the rules in the NBA, as far as like the freedom of movement offensively and what you can do, that's a good defensive play versus what's a foul. I think, you know, in college to the NBA, there there's intricacies and

differences to it. And so I just think you have to remember when you watch an NBA game that it is designed for entertainment sake. It also is designed when I say entertainment sake to be pleasing to the most people, right? For the advertisers to have the greatest show to create the highest scoring, but to also create the most consistent consistency, also create the most exciting game with dunks and with threes and also to play towards like what is

fits the players skill sets in today's game. There's all of this going into it. I mean, you hear the conversations between Adam Silver and some of the competition committee talking a lot about, you know, scoring is down and then like the next we're talking about right now, believe it or not, is down. But you start to look at like some of the games that have happened recently. It's 80 point halves and it's 150 bucks as well as 140 to one, whatever. So I do think like.

My point is the rules in the NBA are designed so specifically to accomplish so many things that it's hard when I hear people say like no one guards anymore or like it's just not what it used to be. I think like yes that might be true in some cases. For instance if you say like guys just don't guard anymore.

Now, according to a lot of the rules that have been implemented, guys aren't allowed to guard the way they used to guard. They'll fall out of the game. It's just not the way the game is played. And so I think it's correct assessment. They're not guarding the same. But if Scottie Pippen was out there guarding the way Scottie Pippen used to guard, he would fall out and be an awful defender. You found out the last four games in 10 minutes each. And so I say that just to say it's not that there's a lack of defense being played. It's a.

the way the rules are assigned.

There's going to be higher scoring. There's going to be greater spacing. The guys skill sets have developed around those rules to be able, like we said, to have Andre Drummond shooting three point shots. And so I just think that the game itself, it is harder to get stops. It is the court is way bigger now. When I was playing, it happened. The Golden State Warriors started making threes. The Gold Star started winning championships and the schemes became.

No matter where Steph Curry gets screened, the coverage is to go over the screen. And you were like, now hold on. If somebody comes out, a Dray sets a half court, a screen, a half court. You don't want me to go under that. And the answer was no. We want you to go over everything on stuff. Half court, three quarter court at the three point. That doesn't matter because if you can get on his hip and chase him, at least he can't get a comfortable shot. And you were like, but from where? And you were like, well, he's shooting it from 40 feet away. Whereas.

it used to be obviously if you're at the three point line or below, you go over and anything above that you go under. We don't care if they shoot it from so deep. And so I say it to say the court is so big now, meaning it's big if you're going over on a screen at half court. So the if you're going over as a decision defensively, that means that you're allowing Steph Curry to have a running head start to the paint, which means someone else has to by design come and stop him.

Yeah, and when he does someone else is gonna be open and the court is no longer three -point line and down It's from half court and down and so it's just a different game And so it's hard to go back to your initial question about college going to the NBA It's hard to prepare for that. I think you got to play the college game Yeah, and then you got to obviously have certain skill sets or the ability to adapt quickly once you get to the NBA level Which a lot of guys do I think your point about it being entertainment you see all other sports NFL's changing the rules the kickoffs major league

Now the pitcher has a pitch clock. Every sport has to change some rules for the entertainment. They want to see more points in the NFL. Now they're going to be moving the kickoff line. So it's not just the NBA. It's every sport. I guess for the NBA, PA, are they upfront? The commissioners, the front offices, are they like, hey, this is entertainment? This is a business. Are they upfront with players or that's just known?

Like when they very, very upfront. But but I would say this, it's it's not all the rules are not being put in place, you know, for entertainment. But to your point, I think the NBA is a unique place because.

It is a brotherhood in that it is an industry that, you know, the players are 50 % of the pot and the owners are 50 % of the pot. Everybody has the same interest in the health of the game. And by the health of the game, I think that that has to do with player safety all the way to profitability. Yeah, yeah. You know, all those things. And so I think it's looked at from a very healthy standpoint of there's no player or owner or anybody who wants the game to be played in any kind of way that is

looked at by fans negatively. If that means like someone came in and said they wanted to, in the competition committee, wanted to implement a further line and more three point shooting. I think if players or coaches or fans in general felt like.

that was gonna be a bad thing for the league as far as people enjoying watching it or players playing it. They have no interest in making that rule change. So I think it comes from a very healthy standpoint. But with the understanding that this is a multi -billion dollar industry, that there's no question.

keeping the fans happy, it has a huge piece to do with it. But I tend to think like get continuing to find what like the authentic version of the game is, is the goal because that's what fans want to watch. They don't want to just watch three point shooting. They don't want to just watch post players. And to your point earlier, Max, when you were saying they're going to see 85 threes, I think like the, when I talk about the authenticity of the game, I think it's really fun to me, at least as like a basketball,

nerd shooter guy.

to go, yeah, we're going to see 85 threes, but it's not about like how many we're going to see. To me, it's about like, we're going to see how those 85 attempts are gotten. Cause if it's from dribbling down the court and jacking, you're like, I don't want to watch that. But if it's because there you got post players who are still bigs and are really skilled and they're a threat. So the defense has to respect them. So everybody has to guard their mail one -on -one on the perimeter. Then to me, you go,

Now this is fun to watch. It's almost like an investment guy. Investment guys are not always about like, I love money. They're about finding out how money is created. And I find that I'm that version of a basketball guy. Yeah, I love three point shooting. But I love figuring out and seeing what are the most successful ways to create made three pointers. Which listen, I'm coming down to That's how I'm questioned on this.

NBA everyone switches one through five. Yeah. Why do all the teams just lazy switch at the top of the key went and then you just put on Brooke Lopez on shake it. Why do we do that? Yeah. Just because why do you have to switch that? Because I feel like you're just you're in a switch and coverage. But do you have to do it every time? Because that's what I think I watch the NBA now more than college. A shot making is ridiculous. I like the schemes. It's different. I like watching the thunder and just the individual performances. Yeah. But.

Sometimes it's spread ball screen switch go, especially late. Why do everyone? Let me answer this because I I'm like Steve, just a super basketball nerd. And that was one of my things. You don't do you have to you have to. I'm tell you what. Miami Heat won back to back and they had all these great athletes and they double teamed and trapped and hedge and recovered everything.

San Antonio Spurs, they beat them. Then they came back and damn, they got swept. What they tried to do was the same thing and the Spurs just moved the ball and they like.

They make them look foolish for playing trap defense and switch defense by moving a ball at a high clip and surrounding Tim Duncan with all shooters. Yeah. And decision makers. So like when Golden State and those guys got five, that death lineup changed everything. Like so that death lineup with Draymond and Iggy at the four and five. And this is why they were called the death line. Yes, because as you're trying to defensively figure out what what is the coverage.

If you switch, yeah, okay, you can switch but yeah, Steph is gonna be ice on the correct You cannot switch and double then you have to rotate on the back and then yes someone for Golden State you have to double

In my head, it's drop and just send them in the middle. And that's like the analytics way in my head. Yeah. But that's the problem. This is why Draymond Green BAM and those guys have become very successful, because if you switch or double team them, they put it right in the middle and then they just play. They just play four on three. And they're so smart playing four on three that BAM. And then secondly, they we went into this drop coverage.

Right. That the Bucks do a lot. Yep. These guys, these basketball dudes that shoot threes are shooting at a high clip off the dribble now that we couldn't do, which is this is this is not normal recent three point shooting. That's like the next. Yes. So if you fight over the top.

And now these dudes like Duncan Robinson and they got the push dribble out. Were you all the way in the paint? Now you're trying to fight. They just flying and shooting the three. It makes it hard coverage like to kind of guard this. I was the same way. I'm like, why? I rather have a late like rear view contest than my big guy just looking like a fool. And then you just take them out. Yeah, yeah. But that's like the biggest thing with the NBA that I am always back and forth. Switching this late. They don't even hit. Yeah.

switch there's no nothing. And then they can't they got to start. They look at the ball so much in the NBA where they zone up on the zone up on the weak side. So that's they trying to take away the corner threes a lot more. Yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting. Yeah, I think you know, concept answer to me is exactly right. And I don't think it's always black or white. Right. You have to switch or you.

you know, shouldn't be, right? I think depending on who you're playing, like if there are weaknesses in the team that you're going against, meaning if there is a guy on the court that you're going against who is a non -shooter, then you...

You can leave him alone to our point and a lot of this conversation. A lot of lineups right now, there are no weak spots. There's guys that really can shoot the ball. But when there aren't, I think it allows you to be much more creative defensively because then you can choose to give something up, meaning you're going to put two guys in a blitz coverage in a trap coverage on a pick and roll action on the ball to take away a certain shooting threat. Knowing full well we're leaving someone on that team wide open the corner because we're choosing to because they're not a good shooter. So if you're going to get.

as a team that has that you can be way more creative in the NBA with how skilled guys are and how smart and with the three seconds too. And those guys are becoming man because I'm like you guys I'm watching the game and they leave guys open. Now those guys are wide open though. They said in flair screen. Yeah. They catch it. Dribble handoff right back to the guy who's a great shooter. They become it's so much smarter. The game is evolved like when we played you either got taken out the court or you better go like Nolan did one for a left.

Like you better either shoot it or make a decision. You know, now these guys are like making decisions like Drey Mom will pass up a wide open layup because it's a, you know, three second lane and legal defense. So he's waiting for somebody to come over. So as you show a little bit like you're coming at him, boom, he's off of it. Like he's turning down five to seven shots a game just so he can get the blitz coverage and get it right in the middle and make the game.

just so evolved. These players, like Steve was saying, are so smart that you can't scheme against them. It starts with pop. Like, pop.

He's weird like that. Like he was waiting for the heat to come back with that same coverage like that he had because the heat was so successful at bliss in a trap. You had Bosch and you know all these bigs that can hedge and recover and you had D Wade and LeBron on the back line. If you did tag the roller and they did throw it into them they come in to block everything from the backside. So you know the coverage is it looks so lazy but it's really the way these guys are evolved. You have to.

to do this or it looks really bad. And you said some to that. It looks lazy. And I think to me, that's a big part of it, because I mean, I think everybody really does know at this point, even though you might not realize it, like almost everything that's being done on the court, who's playing, what shots are being taken and what coverages are being made are based on analytics. Yes. Now. And so there might be period like outlier performances or stretches in the game where things look a kind of way where you're

you're like, they just made three threes in a row, or that guy's got 15 points in the quarter, which would be like an outlier performance based on what we thought we were gonna get from our defensive analytics, because teams have a staff, full staff of analytics guys that are saying stuff to the point of, at the end of a game, we should foul in this situation because the percentage of possessions that teams score on sideline and a bounce plays is only 45%.

Yeah, and if we allow them to run their half court set they score at 52 % So they simply follow at the end the game make them take the sideline of bounds because teams are less successful so sometimes it comes down to

And I think a lot of times it comes down to the coverage is a lot of times like you're saying seeing a Brook Lopez switch on to a Say a a rosier Type guard you go like are we really putting a speedy downhill guard? Against a seven -foot guy who is not as mobile It looks crazy, but I think the analysts are possibly and in many cases it is the case saying It looks crazy. He's gonna get scored on sometimes But if Terry rosier is taking that shot

and Brooke is forcing him into either a pull up three that for him is a lower percentage shot. Or he's essentially going at Brooke and Brooke is going to be able to alter his shot. Then we want that versus the threat of whoever, this guy, that guy, or this guy getting a shot. And it's almost like that looks bad, but we prefer it so much versus what else could happen. And so I do think like to simplify it all the way down, I would say to answer your question, like do all NBA teams need to do that? I think the answer will always be.

based on the analytics of some basketball geek stuff. Like if you make a, if you make 90 % of your free throws and you get followed 10 times, that means you're going to the line 10 times. You're shooting 20 shots and you're going to be making 18 out of 20 free throws. So we know that the calculation on that is one point, eight points per time you get followed. Yeah. Which is similar to if you shoot three point shots and you get 10, three point shots, if you make six of them, you know that you have 12 points, right?

All right.

You have I'm sorry you have 18 points, which is also one point eight points per shot. You should say it. So I think it's the same thing defensively. Like we know if we play this defensive coverage over a long period of time, this team is only going to get one point zero points per shot. If we don't, we're seeing that we're giving up one point two points per shot, which it starts to get in the weeds. I get it. That stuff is all good stuff. Oh, if you were at a one point clip off one point per shot or per possession,

offensively you were like elite. Yeah. Now that's probably the average or below average in college. And it's true. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it really comes down to that. And I think like that's sometimes the math that people. Not in a row. No, no. But I understand. I just feel like the crunch time to where they do it so often too. And I get the numbers. Do we have to all the time? I get mixing up here and there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But you're there's definitely numbers that back it up. And to your point, late game. Yeah. And situational is is there's.

still time for analytics, but that is the time. That's like a feel for that is the feel presence because you just know like, do we is not good for game. Do we want a complete mismatch? And so I think you're right. 100 % on that. But I think the analytics and the numbers side of that stuff, it gets people start to blank and they go, oh, yeah, but that is what a lot of what we're seeing. If you really want the answer to what was why we're seeing or seeing. Yeah, it comes down to like one point over one point.

Yeah, one point two versus one point eight and that's what three points gotta go versus two points You that's what free throw shooting is versus mid -range jumpers. Yeah, you know, that's what layups are versus seven so it's like that is why we're seeing guys shoot certain shots defenses guard in certain ways and Break the numbers down over the volume of a game or a season you go like Makes sense. I'm seeing that We got into high school college into the NBA We're gonna come full circle here kind of start wrapping up like what is?

You're coaching your sons. You're in CBA, part of CBA. Talk a little bit about coaching your son's expectations. We had a couple podcasts ago where parents are out of control and sometimes the parent coaches are the worst. Right. And I've mentioned it a couple of times because I've watched you coach. Yeah. And when I watch Mac out there, he's just another player. You treat him just like any other player. And you're an NBA former NBA player. Right. Talk a little bit about being a parent coach, playing at the highest level and kind of come in full circle. You know, yeah.

I think more than anything I'm really grateful for the perspective that my career has given me on the sport of basketball. Because I do think like guys like Joe who played over a decade professional and myself who played over a decade. You just gained a different perspective on.

why you got to that point, how you got to that point. And also I think being around so many different systems and personalities and leadership, you just realize, I think, like there's so many different ways that things can be done. And so I would say, to your point about coaching my son, the one thing at this age that I'm just so passionate about that Joe does such a good job with this program of is creating and having that...

keys to the Brown Deer High School gym environment. And the creating the atmosphere more than like, we're gonna be the greatest skill, we're gonna have you shoot in half court.

making half court shots. We're going to have you be in the greatest disgrace. The skill stuff matters. It 100 % matters. But the environment in which you do the skill stuff is way more important because you're creating the love of basketball. And if you create a love of basketball, you get guys who want to make 300 shots every single day after school and guys that want to shoot me and Joe after a really hard practice. So I think creating that love of the game and the environment to want to do it all the time puts you at such an elevated advantage because you're going to be spending more time and because you're

you have a passion, it's not work and it's not something you can't wait to be done with. So to me at this age, that's what I want to create. So when I coach my son, and to your point is, you know, just another kid out there, absolutely. But because I don't have he's the one and he's going to the NBA expectation I have. I want to build the fire and the love for him, which is by way of his teammates as well for putting them around good kids, good families playing the right way, having fun, winning every game.

I doubt it, but we're going to have a really good time and they're going to love basketball and because of it I think they're going to work on their own. They're going to have a passion for the sport and they're going to want to just continue to love, you know, to play.

And so I forget what your other follow -up question was on that. Just come in full circle. What's your future? What do you think? Sticking with the Bucks or as your son gets older, you see yourself getting involved. We hear Joel, I'm going to have to take the boys someday or whatever. Do you see that in your future at all? Yeah, I just.

full circle for me, like, I don't know what's next. I feel like the the basketball cycle and Joe and I have talked about this is it's like every five years seems to be like this window in time, you know, where you're like you're in high school. Call it five, you know, five years. You're like, oh, wow. Now I'm in college for five years. Like, oh, this is amazing. Then it's like you do something else for us. Yeah, it was playing basketball for the first five years where we're trying to prove ourselves and make it. Yep. And it was all sudden you did the next five years was like, man, we made it. We're having a really good time.

time. And now it's retirement, right? To your point, you know, it's coaching the kids and it's, you know, doing the Bucks broadcast, which I've been just so grateful to be able to do. I think being around a team like the Bucks at a time that this franchise is doing what they're doing. It's a beautiful thing, I think, for me to be a part of it, but equally for all the kids that live in this.

Yeah, Wisconsin community to have a team like that and guys like that to cheer for. So I'm so grateful for that. I would say as much from like a career standpoint as I am to be able to bring my family along and have them a part of it like everybody else's family is. I think it's just again, to that same point about like having positive influences and being able to be around positive basketball environments. I think the Bucs is just another version of that. How do you prepare for like there's a big game tonight?

You're probably going to be on how do you prepare for like tonight stat wise? You like looking at what everybody's been shooting? Well, I can tell you. So we go back and forth, you know, the night before it basically the routine is like I do the pre and post like you're saying pre and post game show other games. I do pre and post and the in game color. And, you the prep for the in game color is is I wouldn't be here today doing this if I was doing that because you dive in, you're going through full rosters, looking at trends, looking at every every player.

everyone's doing, really around the whole league. You want to be able to talk everything.

and encompass everything. And so tonight I'm just doing pre and post, but we go back and forth on emails and sharing ideas as far as, you what was the great stuff that happened last game? Obviously it's like Bobby Porter's going off and having 25 points in the first half and, you know, having Chris Middleton back and seeing what Dame is doing with Giannis out and that kind of stuff. And so, you know, we just go through and we share a bunch of ideas and then we decide what clip packages we want to run and of what we kind of go back and look at the game and pull clips and stuff like that. And then, you know, just different stuff on

the opponent as well, you know, obviously seeing what Boston is doing, how they're sitting up so, so high at number one, but you know, some of the connection, uh, stuff to like the Sam Houser and the stuff that he's doing, I'm not sure if he'll play or not, but coming off of 30 .10 made three game and stuff like that. And so, you know, just kind of how it relates to where we currently sit in the, in the season and that kind of thing and putting packages together. And so, and tonight we'll, we'll, uh, our producers will make all the magic happen and we'll get to talk all about it.

So yeah, big game. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, it'll be good to see Yeah, see where we're at as far as monkey to finish Joel Why don't you just talk a little bit about your relationship and what it means to you? Oh, yeah be part of CBA Yeah, I mean we've been knowing each other over 22 Trump almost 25 years now I mean too long is going fast so just to see how like he talked about early the discipline and structure that he has had his whole life from when he was younger to now it just rubs off on anybody

that he meets and I was no different just coming in and meeting him. I was a, we had the same class but I'm younger. So I came in at 17. So just to see somebody with that discipline and dedication, having two sets of parents, just seeing the environment that he had. I think I was at one of his games where they either retired his number or something that they did at the old Brown Deer. So just going just to know him off the court, you know, was the fun part of getting to know him on the court. So spending four years.

years and the memories of the Final Four and leaving the program our senior year the way we found it getting back to the tournament but also just to every year that we came back from all of our places. We always met in the gym. It wasn't like a barbecue or you know anything it was I'll see you at the gym when you when you get back so that's how you know.

We talk about the five years, where people are gonna be in five years. I can tell you where two of us is gonna be. We're gonna be in a gym. I don't know what gym, I don't know where, but you're gonna always find us in a gym because we're creatures of habit. And I learned that from him, just always being around. And now it's rubbing off on our kids, our boys. There's time that we just, I can remember vividly last summer that our two boys are just in the gym, just playing. And we're just sitting in the bleachers watching them go one -on -one.

things that we did all the time. There's time me and Steve will play after practice or before practice where we still got, I still got elbow right here and he's got scratches all over him. Sure do, bunch of scars. And we use to play all the time. And we have senior media day and people would never know we were just in a full out battle for hours playing one on one. And then we have to do interviews and we're laughing and joking, but no one knows how much time.

to make each other better people, better players. So just to see the full circle of having camps together, have clinics, both of our kids are getting to that age where it's starting to get more important, the traveling more, being on road trips. So it's like full circle moments for us as athletes that's been a part of something that hard.

from a great university like Marquette and having a great coach like Tom Kareem, that whole team of that Final Four is very successful. We're all successful in something, even though we react about how hard it is. We wouldn't be where we are if we didn't have that foundation. So 20 years later of still having that camaraderie with some of these guys that we're doing interviews with now and podcasts, it just makes it seem like this is our family forever. In some type of capacity, we're gonna always be connected.

And this is the cool part of the connection. Because once you go through wars and battles, it's gonna translate over to the next generation of what you learned, what we learned from. For me, in a national ball, what he learned in NBA ball, this learning from different people, different coaches. Now we have this encyclopedia of how to make someone better. And that's the cool part of having long friendships and camaraderie.

Well, this was our longest podcast we've done. Oh, I knew that was said that I knew that was going to be the case. No, I can't see that in very much long winded nature. I got to I got to follow up with Joe said to because I think what he said is real. And I want to just echo what I think, like like you said, having gone through, you know what Joe and I did together at market, to be honest, like I don't really love talking about and I really won't with most people about like what went on in market, because like Joe said, when you go through certain phases of life or certain

and battles and adversity and stuff like that, which the truth is that that's just what college was for us. It was proving ourselves. It was fighting together. It was overcoming together. It was like it was very much failing together. It was having doubts together. And it was also, like you said, having decade long careers afterwards. I think.

I don't like to even talk about those years that much with people that I didn't go through with because there's no real need to try to explain. Right. You know, and I think a lot of people, they can't relate or they just think you're kind of embellishing or saying it was a certain way. And so I think, you know, to Joe's point, I just really do appreciate, you know, the guys that I went through those battles with because.

They all have such a big piece in the success that Joe had. We all have a piece in that the success that I've had and will continue to have around the game of basketball. All those guys went through that with they have a piece of it. And so I think you're just so grateful for like Joe said, well, we were battling when no one was watching. We were, we were, you know, essentially fist fighting. It wasn't difficult to afterwards be all good and be doing the interviews and be joking to having a good time. Because the truth is we both understood like we were both doing it for the right reasons to make each other.

other better and to be hopefully one day sitting here like we are now. And so it is very cool. And I think it's just beautiful, I think, to see more than anything what Joe is doing with his program as he grows it, how he's growing it, his philosophy, why he's doing it. Because I think all that matters way more than like the what did the skill workout look like? What does the weightlifting look like? To me, it comes more down to what is the environment and why is it being done? For what impact? What greater purpose? And I think it's similar to having a dream.

You know, it's like, what does it look like? I don't know to get there. But boy, I'll tell you, if you can, if you can achieve it, it's a beautiful thing. I think that's what CBA, you know, is. It's this beautiful basketball community that's, you know, everybody's in it together. Everybody doesn't always know each other and, you know, it's grown fast and that kind of thing. But with the same foundation, I think it's just, it's having a really positive impact for, and it will for a long time and a great environment for a lot of families and a lot of kids. And, you know, it takes a unique figure.

Trust me, it's more Carolyn than it Joe. Yeah, for sure. 100%. But there's no question it's just a beautiful thing to see coming from a family where my pops was a basketball figure. I just have an appreciation for that. And I think it's a beautiful way of life and it impacts a lot of people. And I think the game of basketball has a tendency to do that if done right. Well, we appreciate you. Wait, I got one more. Oh, yeah. I'm just kidding. We're good. People are sick.

We know he had a rough drive here, so he'll have a rough drive back. I'm going to take the same route back, hour and a half around the construction. Great Milwaukee traffic. So thanks a lot, Steve. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. Great to be on.