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🎙 Bringing wine stories, tips, and expert interviews to everyday wine lovers. 🍷
00:00 — Matt Weiss
Welcome to the Wine Centric Show presented by Inventory to handle all your seller needs and manage your seller quite easily. Today we are shooting live from the Fearrington here in beautiful Pittsboro, North Carolina. And if I say titans, I think that might be an understatement for the lovely couple I have today. They are Le Victoire de Vaucluse, Sir Xavier Rolet and Chevalier du Mérite agricole, Ms. Nicole Rolet.
00:35 — Xavier Rolet
Welcome.
00:36 — Nicole Rolet
Wow. Thank you for that introduction. So great to see you.
00:40 — Matt Weiss
It's very good to see you. It's been a long time. And Xavier, it's great to meet you as well. We had a wonderful dinner here last night. And speaking of dinner, I'm going to jump right in there. This might be blasphemous for you to hear, but let's just go into a fantasy world for a moment.
00:56 — Xavier Rolet
Okay.
00:57 — Matt Weiss
You're joining me in fantasy land. We get to eat one of your precious graylings. Maybe you've been successful in bringing the population back. How would you prepare it to pair with the glass of Aliot?
01:09 — Xavier Rolet
I could see you've done your research. Eating would be a fantasy. But I wouldn't want to get in trouble with Montana's Fish, Wildlife and Parks. They catch and release. Only part of a restoration effort, but I won't bore you with all the detail. So imagining we had this beautiful freshly caught wild Arctic grayling, beautiful salmon. Its allure would be perfect mix. It's actually one of these white wines that goes with these sometimes difficult to pair food items. I would have prepared the grayling. I would prepare the same way I would prepare a freshly caught salmon right off the creek. You've got it. Fill its stomach with precooked a few potatoes, a few, maybe some a little bit of garlic, a little bit of dill, a few onions. Wrap them up with a little bit of butter. Okay. French. We cook everything with butter.
02:06 — Xavier Rolet
Some freshly caught slices of lime around the sage. Wrap it up in a sheet of aluminum foil and just leave it on the embers. About 10 minutes each side. Open it up, eat it right there. Nice glass of Aliot overlooking the mountains and the stream. That would be my dream, which you'd be very welcome to share.
02:32 — Matt Weiss
I'm having chills. One day, when you accomplish your goal with the Grayling Centennial Company, you will have to do that because that sounds fantastic. Of course, I buried the lead a little bit. Your Aliot is your white wine from Chêne Bleu. This is your winery in Vaucluse. It's been referred to as a Super Rhône. For easy understanding. I know that's a very polarizing topic, but we'll get into this. So I want to know, Nicole, because. Just to give a little bit of insight into both of yours, who you are, and Xavier, we'll get more into your history. But, Nicole, you also have a Viognier that you make. And the Viognier, as we know, is kind of a finicky grape, right?
03:17 — Xavier Rolet
It can be.
03:18 — Matt Weiss
It can get flabby if not enough acidity, and it can be very vibrant. It can be. It can be wonderful. One of the most ethereal white wines. However, it can be very shy if not done properly. Does this remind you of anybody?
03:30 — Xavier Rolet
Personality.
03:35 — Nicole Rolet
Thanks. Well, Viognier is very responsive to its environment. In fact, it's true that altitude, you can do some very exciting things with it, like you could in a cooler climate like northern Rhône, because it's a very divisive grape. It's the Marmite of the grape world. Some people love it, and they. They think that they respond very strongly to its aromatics.
03:59 — Matt Weiss
Yes.
04:00 — Nicole Rolet
When those aromatics are very intense, like they can be in a hotter climate, even if it's their favorite perfume in the world, it can be like being trapped in an elevator with a woman wearing too much perfume. Even if it's your favorite perfume, you just can't wait to get out of there. So luckily, the altitude really works in a favor.
04:18 — Matt Weiss
That's right. Master Sommelier once told me, and I might have said this on the show before, but that his tell for blind tasting Viognier and picking it out was if it. It reminded him of Froot Loops, you know, the breakfast cereal. And because it has all of that, the citrus, the savory, the herbaceous, the floral, all of that, it's.
04:37 — Nicole Rolet
It's. You get more is more, and I tend to prefer the less.
04:41 — Matt Weiss
Yes, it's an amazing alternative if you like big, viscous whites. But the thing that I was driving at, you were in finance. You've created multiple think tanks. You've helped together resurrect this priory, you know, this ancient priory to what it is today, to, you know, like a. A flagship of the V. But I think you struggled with a little bit of, like, shyness, camera shyness, when you were young.
05:04 — Nicole Rolet
100% Pathologically shy, actually.
05:08 — Matt Weiss
I don't know you that at all.
05:10 — Nicole Rolet
You know, they clings to their father's pant leg, that kind of person. And it's been something that I've worked on quite a bit because I started to notice when I was a teenager, a very specific incident where I had to put my hand up for something that I really wanted and I didn't dare and then this other person did and they got to do the thing that I really wanted to do. And that was a turning point where I said, I don't want life to pass me by just because I'm shy. So I just started trying to overcompensate. There's a bit like Forrest Gump when he starts walking, then he starts running. And then he was a bit like that.
05:55 — Matt Weiss
So it was the failure in the competition that somebody else got a position. You wanted to say.
06:00 — Nicole Rolet
To say to yourself just more like, you know, seeing. Seeing that I wasn't getting the things that I was really hoping for.
06:07 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
06:07 — Nicole Rolet
Because it was getting.
06:08 — Matt Weiss
So you were shy but driven.
06:09 — Nicole Rolet
There you go.
06:10 — Matt Weiss
Yeah.
06:11 — Matt Weiss
That's funny because I've known you now. I think we first met in 2011, maybe 2012, when I was working for Wilson Daniels and I did not take you for shy at all. That was not my first impression.
06:23 — Nicole Rolet
But.
06:23 — Matt Weiss
Okay. So let's get into Chêne Bleu. Let's get into this place. Both of your stories, we're going to work backwards because it's pretty fascinating. Your families that you came from, but you were in finance. You were in. Both of you were very high achievers. Remind me of the timeline. Because at some point you were still. It took you 12 years once you found the place and purchased the place to actually start making wine, right?
06:45 — Nicole Rolet
Yes.
06:45 — Xavier Rolet
Okay.
06:46 — Nicole Rolet
So we're practicing on the side.
06:47 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
06:48 — Nicole Rolet
But he left it to. To follow this dream that he had since forever. And then once we started finding out about the quality of the vineyard and all of that, then he had went. Had to go back to finance to.
07:03 — Matt Weiss
Help to finance the project.
07:07 — Nicole Rolet
Yeah.
07:08 — Matt Weiss
I see.
07:08 — Nicole Rolet
Yeah. When you, when you get your financing from banks, it's. They have very short term horizons. When you're regenerating property and restructuring everything, you have a much different timeline. So it's. It's very helpful initially to not rely on higher funding.
07:28 — Matt Weiss
Yes.
07:29 — Xavier Rolet
That we found the property in 1997. It had been essentially farmed out, abandoned since sort of post War two area.
07:41 — Matt Weiss
And just take me back of like you were looking for a winery.
07:44 — Nicole Rolet
Right.
07:45 — Xavier Rolet
I've been looking for a while. Okay. In various areas. There were two things I was looking for. I was looking for altitude, which in the 1990s was actually a way to buy land very cheaply because nobody wanted it. Yeah. They all wanted to be found in lower lying areas where it's easier to.
08:02 — Matt Weiss
Work and bigger fruit, more robust flavors. Right.
08:08 — Xavier Rolet
They weren't worried about, you know, changing climate and warming temps. And the other thing I was looking for was geological complexities and that took a little while and property had been again farmed out but. But not properly taken care of, was essentially ruined since sort of immediate post World War II period. And it took a good 10 years to put in place the conditions to not only properly work the land, but also create the infrastructure, vinify model and then start building a marketing, global marketing network. And then of course you need to constantly work on improvements, innovation as well as discovery of what makes that French call it terroir. But the particular conditions, the environment, the weather, biology, the geology work to the best advantage. And that means you often have to restructure, change the varietals very long term effort.
09:17 — Xavier Rolet
Been at it over 30 years and really starting to come together now. But it's a labor of love which you go back to Nicole's point, you can't finance that with bank. You need long term equity. Yeah. Creating that.
09:32 — Matt Weiss
It's the old joke. I know you're a fan of the dad jokes, but how you make a for small fortune in the wine business.
09:38 — Xavier Rolet
Is you start with a large fortune. Yeah, that holds true. There is something a little bit addictive to it which is actually particularly if you work in services, you know, the modern economy, technology is rediscovering your roots. And when I say you, it's all of us, you know, we all go back at some point to families and histories, folks that were working with the land, whether they were working with cereals, with wines or. And there is something profoundly settling but also addictive in restoring a property that you know, had been neglected, needed a lot of TLC. But also discovering the geology and the biology of reproduction ties into our own lives, including notions like work, happiness. Yeah. You know, it's not felt to smear out. I think in a world that today and sometimes be confusing.
10:40 — Matt Weiss
Yeah. Well, it's like health in the blue zones and eating correctly and taking care of yourself mentally, both mentally and physically. I want to know also though you were a finance guy and I know that both of you have a little bit of history and background in wine from your family, your family owned Domaine Relay in the Jura. So you knew a little bit about cool climate. Arguably you achieved the highest possible. I mean you were a Harvard Business Top 100 CEO named. I mean you had reached the mountaintop of finance. What was kind of the turning point where you said, I got to do this, I'm going to buy winery.
11:19 — Xavier Rolet
If you do want to succeed and make something new, so you're probably not going to start the wine industry.
11:24 — Matt Weiss
Yes.
11:25 — Xavier Rolet
Go back to that fortune you were talking about. Yes. But even if you succeed in whatever business career or the career you're. You're endeavoring to follow, there's still something you leave behind that, you know, is unfulfilled. And for me, that taking that year off in the sort of mid-90s to buy a property and get it set on the path towards regeneration recovery was a way to satisfy that feeling that there's a piece of view that something was missing. It's unfulfilled, that's still there. You can nurture it through readings, to travel, you might visit some wineries, but it's there, it's not fulfilled and you're going to give it a shot. And then, of course, it tends to grow and can even end up taking a lot of that time and maybe a little bit of that fortune you were talking about earlier. Yeah.
12:21 — Xavier Rolet
Although we're not, you know, you're not tech bros or, you know, sort of Silicon Valley billionaire type by any means, but it was really about also looking at regenerating, restoring something that had. That had a real past that had been around for actually over 1100 years.
12:44 — Nicole Rolet
Right.
12:44 — Xavier Rolet
That had been neglected, abandoned, and seeing it essentially recover and yield food in a way that would be very satisfying to a lot of people. Not just the people working the land, selling the wine, but sharing that to a lot of people around the world. And it was Nicole who reinvented the motto in Latin, Non Mihi, Non Tibi, Sed Nobis. Not mine, not yours, but ours. Yes. So it's also about sharing something that's unique, that we discover, we might not have discovered. We just stumbled onto it through the several years of research. Then going around the world and sharing that story with a lot of people. There is happiness and satisfaction. Yeah. She's the one who made it happen.
13:31 — Matt Weiss
I want to hear from you, Nicole, because you bring so much to this project that the two of you are dynamic duo. But I'm wondering, Zavi, I'm always after the moment, the. The inspiration, the epiphany moment was there. Was it a glass of wine? Was it a conversation with Nicole? Was it something you're reading to say, that's when you decided, you know what, I'm going to start looking for a vineyard.
13:51 — Xavier Rolet
Yeah.
13:51 — Nicole Rolet
It was the moment he tried to stop him.
13:56 — Matt Weiss
Oh, you didn't know him yet. Oh, okay.
13:59 — Xavier Rolet
No, I kind of. It was a little bit of a bait and switch there. Hey, Nicole, you know, I like to take you on a trip to Europe, maybe we visit a few places. By the way, you like it's yours. Fix it with a little bit of that. And she was a good solier. Yeah, she. She played the game and I think she's even far more today that I was then and I am today. So there was a moment in my career where I just wanted on a. In a very modest capacity, in a personal capacity. It's not about what other people think or feel. I wanted to have a little bit of truth in my life. And the world of business doesn't lie. You succeed or you fail, you sell, you don't sell, you make money or you lose money. So.
14:45 — Xavier Rolet
But it is also very transactional. It doesn't deep down, in my view, necessarily address all of the things that each one of us are looking for, a little bit of truth in our lives. It may be something very different, maybe spiritual, it may be material. It may be different things to different people. And in land, particularly regenerating, restoring land, I found an expression of that truth, which I couldn't find in business. Business provides other things. It provides challenges, it provides opportunities to do things differently. But all my life I've been interested innovation, technology and finance. And I found that in land regeneration, restoration, offering consumers at a conventional pricing point a product that is good for their health, that isn't going to contaminate their body as an agriculture is an area that continue to work on something good.
15:50 — Xavier Rolet
And that's what I wanted to try out. I hope that makes sense.
15:53 — Matt Weiss
I think it does. And at some point I'm going to tease out of you the exact moment. But before I get to the call, I'm just going to say again, I want to pause because this episode is made possible by our partnership with Inventory, which if you are ever been in your cellar and you're looking for a bottle and you say, Nicole Xavier, where was that bottle? Well, I'll pause for a moment, but this has an app and you're talking about technology, where they solved the problem because Joshua Dater, his father couldn't find the wines in his cellar and he was getting frustrated and he tried all the things he tried, an Excel spreadsheet, cellar tracker, and none of them was finding the bottle.
16:29 — Xavier Rolet
So.
16:29 — Matt Weiss
So they created this model for where it would download, upload all of the information in your cellar just by pointing, clicking, shooting, and it would tell you all the information and then it 3D locates. So for example, in this cellar that I'm here, I could just click on that bottle and it would give me a 3D model and beep so I could know exactly where to find it. So that's Inventory. Download the Inventory app. That's I N D I N T O R Y for cellar management made easy. Nicole. It's interesting because both of you have ties to New York. Zavi, I think you were born there, if memory serves correctly.
17:07 — Xavier Rolet
I actually, I grew up in Africa, but I very early on and moved to New York City for my studies and stood there for quite a few years.
17:16 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
17:17 — Xavier Rolet
But I'm not a native born like.
17:19 — Matt Weiss
So yeah, you're a New Yorker, but you've flipped in between Lysay and France and your. Yeah, and Italy. Your.
17:26 — Xavier Rolet
Your.
17:27 — Matt Weiss
Your father was a merchant from Milan and in.
17:30 — Nicole Rolet
In France working for Pirelli. He also started in the mail room and ended up as the president of the whole group. So he was moved around quite a bit.
17:42 — Xavier Rolet
Yeah.
17:42 — Nicole Rolet
So to Italy for a few years when I was 7 until he graduated from high school, moved to college in the U.S. Okay.
17:52 — Matt Weiss
And then Vassar.
17:53 — Nicole Rolet
Right, Vassar. I went back to Italy for a little while after college and then decided that I wanted to pack up and do the Ellis Island thing. Show up in New York with no job, no money, no friends and.
18:08 — Matt Weiss
And make it.
18:08 — Nicole Rolet
Do it the in your 20s like so many people. And that was a very exciting time to be there.
18:15 — Xavier Rolet
And you did. Found your way.
18:17 — Nicole Rolet
It was great. I. I really enjoyed working in geopolitical think tanks mainly with Latin America. So that's a bit of a non sequitur with what I'm doing now and meeting this man and that changing my life.
18:32 — Matt Weiss
And how did that happen? Did he. Is it like he says? He bait and switched. You said they'd like to bring you to Europe.
18:39 — Nicole Rolet
We met at a wedding in France and when we. Well, we have different.
18:46 — Matt Weiss
Thirty years later, it's like when Harry met Sally. They all have different.
18:51 — Nicole Rolet
We have different recollection of exactly how we met. But then I remember going on with serious date because he was living in London and I was in New York and have these really serious dates when he would come town and it was fun. All about, you know, things we had in common. Oh, skiing. Oh, so do I. Like scuba diving. Oh, so do I. All that good stuff. Boy girl talk. And then he started telling me about his daughters.
19:20 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
19:20 — Nicole Rolet
Who were very young and he was. He had pictures and stories. And this one like apples, this one likes chocolate and all that stuff. Like, wow, this is so wonderful. I love the fact that on our first date this is. He's making it really clear these are really important to him. And I thought that was terrific. And I was all for that. And then the third part of the evening was about this project in France that he had just committed to. And it was a complete ruin. It was going to take 15 years to cut it off and change his life around, et cetera. Wow. That was a big departure from.
20:01 — Matt Weiss
Could have told me that on the first date.
20:03 — Xavier Rolet
Let me get back to you on this. Yeah, my phone number.
20:09 — Nicole Rolet
I was intrigued, but I was also a bit disoriented because at that point I was your classic young single bro in New York with nothing but ketchup and stale milk and a bottle of champagne in my refrigerator. And so he was a man of the plan. And it was very refreshing because you know how New York can be. Everybody is, but they call it Peter Pan syndrome. Yeah. And he had, you know, not just a 25 year plan, but also the idea that by fixing this place up there could be a 1000 year plan to lead this little patch of earth even better than it was, you know, when he found it and, and restore it to its 1000 year old glory. And I was very intrigued.
20:54 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
20:55 — Matt Weiss
And I just want to give my own little personal intake because when I was representing the wines in New York, I got to visit and I brought my. Well, I don't know if she was my wife at the time, but I brought her and then I brought her sister. So it was her sister in law. And they. And when we pull up to Chêne Bleu, which is this unbelievable UNESCO heritage site just you know, at the base or right next to with the backdrop of Mont Ventoux and. And you pull up and we park in the car park and we open and somebody opened our door. And the first thing that was said was hello, I am Remy, your butler. And from that moment we are tr. We were transposed. I mean this place is truly magical. You had a chef.
21:36 — Matt Weiss
I mean it is no expense spared is really top notch. Beyond there's the medieval imagery and all of this thousand year history. But from a luxurious standpoint that was really fantastic and matched the wines and the personality. So I thank you for that and I do encourage anybody. You have a program there where people can come visit. So thank you.
21:58 — Xavier Rolet
One day you can back as soon.
22:00 — Matt Weiss
As you'll have me. My. You know, the funny thing is a little personal anecdote. So I thought it would be a great moment after that to go rent a house, book in Carcassonne outside of Carcassonne and do that and, you know, just have a nice. Bring some wines there. So I thought that was great. Now, after staying in Chêne Bleu with a private chef for three nights, my sister in law, my wife were not so happy with me.
22:25 — Xavier Rolet
So, yeah, that was amazing. Such a story.
22:28 — Matt Weiss
So we'll have to go back to rekindle that. But so talk to us about this.
22:32 — Xavier Rolet
Let's.
22:33 — Matt Weiss
Let's go to Chêne Bleu and let's go to. I. I gave my very elementary describing description of this place, but you tell me of what makes this place so fascinating.
22:43 — Nicole Rolet
Well, I guess the fact that you. I got to work in a place that had walls that were, you know, three feet thick instead of the flimsy things they build today was a real metaphor and motivator for this idea of trying to do things right. The only reason those walls are still standing from the 9th century is because someone did it that way.
23:09 — Matt Weiss
Yeah.
23:10 — Nicole Rolet
And, you know, what was the metaphorical equivalent that we could be doing at that point that would leave it so that a thousand years from now, what we did now would still matter and be there. And that was on many fronts. For me, the restoration part was important. But when my mother passed away and I started to think about things differently, as one always does with the, you know, changes the benchmark with which you look at the wall and you lose your parents and the futility and transience of life comes crashing home. There's the famous Latin expression, sic transit gloria mundi. Right. The glories of the wall. And you become very acutely aware of what stays and what goes.
23:56 — Nicole Rolet
And I think that whole process of changing those benchmarks really brought into focus the opportunity to work with this exceptional vineyard that had this really crazy combination of being far south and high up with the best of both worlds. Right. Because most winemakers have that fork in the road. They have to choose between opulence, elegance, and here, once in a while, there's a micro terroir that happens to be in the sweet spot between all those horses. And this was one such vineyard. And just understanding how exceptional the panel potential was and how beautiful it would be to have restored this lab helped me to rebalance these three benchmarks with which you assess the value of your life. Right. Because I'd say there's. Okay, financial is important because without it's hard to execute on a lot of things that are important to you.
24:52 — Nicole Rolet
But then existential and experiential. And wine for most people, I think when they go into it and they're not from that world, they expect that experientially, it's going to be amazing. And then existentially, it's going to be great. And then financially, it's going to be pretty tough, right? And they soon find out, I think that for most people it's similar but different. Existentially, it's off the charts, right? Experientially, it has the best of world and the worst of worlds. So on balance, at least a good balance, experientially, there are fabulous moments, like being able to share your wines with fabulous people, like you did last night in terrific places, being with really passionate people throughout the process, whether it's the people who make the wine, who talk about it, sell it and. Or who drink it.
25:47 — Nicole Rolet
And then financially, it's just as bad as everybody would expect. Luckily, we have a background that allows us to navigate some of those choppy financial waters, because it's not for the faint of heart. But when you put it all together, the whole is just greater than the sum of the part. So that's how, I guess my personal view of the world and this exceptional place came together to give me personally the motivation to change my whole life around, jump in with two feet and accept the sort of priesthood of giving up many of the most active years of my life to trying to take it from zero to hero.
26:32 — Matt Weiss
Yeah, zero to hero. I love it. This is obvious, clearly, if you're listening or watching, that this is a passion project with obsession, better word. And what thought has gone into this Wines, they're not just wines that you slap together or whatever. So when you took over and you spent the time restoring. Kathy Corzan, famous Napa winemaker, who I would say shares this similar passion to what? And thoughtfulness. She claimed it as she had a wine in her head that she had to get out, meaning, like she knew what it would taste, like she knew what the experience would be. And then. So it was reverse engineering. How do I get there? When you took over and you spent 12 years and you're in. I use the term just for easy access to. For people to understand it.
27:22 — Matt Weiss
Super Rhône, you're about 30 minutes drive from Avignon, is that right? And pretty close to Châteauneuf-du-Pape and. And Gigondas and all of those southern Rhône. But as you say, you have high elevation and so you have a little bit of a cooler climate to make more austere wines that or in that perfect harmony point. So when you went to the place and you finally started restoring it and thought, did you have a wine in mind? Thinking okay, I want it.
27:52 — Xavier Rolet
You know, all processes of the wine can lead to the best possible wine. That that area produce process was somewhat different in the sense that the geological diversity in place here in an area where a couple of tectonic plates basically have collided, Africa slips under the western Mediterranean meets into the southern European plate. It's called food production collision. But where we are, you can clearly see these two bits plates that are colliding. Which means that a lot of these stratas, geological stratas that normally are horizontal here, are projected where we are at the top of that limestone outcrop. They're projected vertically. That means that the complexity can jump millions of years by just if not hundreds of millions of years by just walking a few hundred feet from one slate to another. And so for us, the process was discovering that geological complexity.
28:57 — Xavier Rolet
In the old days, they would just plant mile long rows of vines. We wanted to rediscover all these areas and then essentially break down the vineyard, which is all very closely connected to the winery. So nowhere is more than 10, 15 minutes away from the winery, which is a big advantage the harvest. But we wanted to discover that geological diversity and then reconfigure the vineyard in small blocks with the right varietal, the right management, if you want, the right soil management configured essentially to those geological areas. And then we started to find out what that would yield. So there was a big iteration process. We've been at it more than 30 years, which then drove the particular assemblage, the assembly, the mix, which over time gave us the current portfolio of product. So were guided.
29:55 — Xavier Rolet
That doesn't mean that by the way, Nicole or winemakers don't have any ideas of where they want to land. But were really guided by the geology, by the configuration, by the weather, to essentially a portfolio of possibilities. And this is where the human touch came in then. So it was a little bit of a different process.
30:16 — Nicole Rolet
And you've touched on something really important, which there is a little bit of a cultural divide. Historically, I think it's less than it used to between the New World and the Old World. In the. In that sense, yes. Where I think European winemaking, which considers itself very terroir driven, will be a lot more responsive to the environment. Whereas classically, because in the New World it was clean swings that maybe you'd say like, oh, I love this stuff. How can I make them. You work backwards. And I think in our case, the latter was really important. The idea of building the wines from the terroir upward and then shaping them. So when were talking about parenting, many times you start off as a parent with an idea of how you want your parents, your kids to be.
31:11 — Nicole Rolet
And then right off the bat, you'll start realizing that some children are very happy to take your guidance and your leadership. And while they'll have their own personality to articulate, they'll also be happy to have you interact with them that way. Yeah. Other kids, from the get go, they're going to tell you who they are, what they need, what they want and how they're going to get it.
31:36 — Matt Weiss
That's right.
31:36 — Nicole Rolet
So your job is to sort of step back and let them be the best that they can be.
31:41 — Matt Weiss
I describe parenting as I've long since realized for my two boys that I'm a shepherd, and it's my job just to lead them to the best pastures. And what they do once they get in the correct pastures, that's their choices.
31:54 — Nicole Rolet
I think in our case, this particular vineyard comes with a very distinctive personality.
32:01 — Matt Weiss
Yes.
32:01 — Nicole Rolet
That combination of the geology of the altitude of this very natural wild environment. It's right in the heart of a forest. And so it's like a donut, right? There's this giant forest all around it at the top of the mountain, and then this tiny little vineyard all by itself inserted in this very intensely wild situation, which is a UNESCO Biosphere Reserve. 1400 species, just a butterflies, wolves, wild boars running through the vineyard, eating the grapes and harvest all that stuff that's not so cool. And so we work with all that. And then, of course, that goes all the way down to the microbiology in the soils which we had the privilege of working with. And you get woggy.
32:46 — Nicole Rolet
Or the famous soil expert from the get go, they were doing groundbreaking work on establishing the families and microorganisms that they were shining their laboratory under the microscope of the soil samples. All that now has moved ahead in leaps and bounds in the last 20 years. But they were the forefathers of all of that. And so they were finding microorganisms that were completely extinct elsewhere. It was like a Jurassic Park of all this.
33:15 — Xavier Rolet
But it was don't use any chemicals. Right. And the place hadn't been chemically harmed forever, so kind of maintained. But we started with a biological, particularly from the soil perspective, bacterial environment that is becoming exceedingly rare. So you can also do different things with that. And it actually would be a shame not to use that natural essential that's been preserved through that's history just the way it was. Right. We try to produce one that is not chemically engineered.
33:50 — Matt Weiss
I mean, you talk about sustainability. Here is the prime example of an environment able to sustain on its own based on the genetics and all the species and characters and creatures that exist there. So I want to talk about the wines specifically. Now, the thing that is interesting to me is even though it's a unique terroir from even Gigondas or Châteauneuf or as you're also kind of. I mean, you are technically in Provence, which is confusing for the wine world.
34:21 — Xavier Rolet
Yes.
34:22 — Nicole Rolet
Lots of labels there. Lots of labels. Many reasons why we stepped out.
34:25 — Matt Weiss
Yes. And it's a Vin de Pays.
34:27 — Nicole Rolet
Some of them. Yeah, some of them. When we can, we'll put them in the appellations, for example, putting some in the Ventoux, because we really like the transformation of the volunteer and are happy to be associated with it and helping them get their recognition. But then when we want to blend the parts, because there are four different appellations, because it's where they connect, top of the mountain. If you want to blend different blocks, we'll just take it out of the appellation system altogether.
34:55 — Matt Weiss
Okay. Which you're not only courageous, but pioneers in that.
35:01 — Xavier Rolet
So.
35:02 — Matt Weiss
But that begs the question. For the most part, you've planted the typical southern Rhones. Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre. I know, Xavier, you lean into the Mourvèdre, and we love Grenache as well. And then you have some Rolle and you have your pet varietals. I'm a huge fan of Mourvèdre. Not enough people make it on its own, so.
35:22 — Xavier Rolet
Can beautifully smooth. Very smooth.
35:25 — Matt Weiss
Exactly. And obviously famous in Bandol, not far from you. So when you were replanting, I know some of it was planted, but when you were replanting, was there a thought to say, well, let's plant something different to really be unique from our partner or from our neighbors here?
35:41 — Xavier Rolet
Yeah. We were driven by the fact that because of the altitude. Yeah, probably, if not the highest, one of the highest vineyards in southeastern France. We've not actually checked that, but a number of wine experts have told us so. So because of that altitude, you know, we can produce a portfolio of rosé and whites as well as reds that are atypical, and it gives us more options. Nicole was always also interested in looking at varietals outside the sort of GSN wuan, for example. Very difficult varietal to manage. Well, it's done. So is actually some tours. Marsanne, Grenache Blanc, Grenache Gris, of course, the red Grenache. More we've got some Cinsault for the rosé. I've always been interested in P Mar, which is a varietal. Can I add. So altitude gives you options to do.
36:43 — Xavier Rolet
And also it was one of the reasons why you come out of the so called appellation IGP system which restricts you to certain varietals. But the appellation in this area was designed for low lying areas that are in the plains. And because we're high up, it didn't correspond. So for example, because we harvest later Mourvèdre with the altitude which most would have said, in fact told us that Mourvèdre a year ago, 23 years ago now is starting to become red. Very, very interesting. So Nicole also had some bit of.
37:20 — Matt Weiss
Vermentino which is pretty standard though in Provence to grow.
37:23 — Xavier Rolet
Exactly. And the advantage that we believe you have particularly for whites and rosé, which are traditionally identified with Provence but which tends to be much lower lying and much warmer, much harder type climate is because of the altitude that we ask for, can produce these whites and rosé with the structure, the acidity that is provided by altitude rather than using chemicals like tartaric acid, for example, that, you know, people always hear you can only drink the rosé in the year they produce. That's you can do very interesting vertical tastings. He does 20 year vertical tasting of a rosé because there's no tartaric acid in it. So that acid doesn't. So it's, it's a sort of holistic approach. And were guided by the fact that altitude gave us some options. Geological diversity gave us options.
38:19 — Xavier Rolet
And because we didn't want to be bound by the fairly stripped inventory of varietals allowed for lower lying appellations, we started looking around for again, innovation.
38:32 — Xavier Rolet
Yeah.
38:33 — Xavier Rolet
With this first unit to the area.
38:34 — Matt Weiss
And it's a great answer. I was even thinking in my head that, you know, a lot of people would be, oh, can I plant Pinot Noir here? Like, is it high elevation and cool enough? Can I plant Chardonnay here? Was there ever a thought to those? I know you said Petite Manseng.
38:47 — Nicole Rolet
I had a whole project. I've worked with some amazing people. So I wanted to find varieties in other mountainous hot areas. I even I looked at Portugal, went to Switzerland. We looked at really great wines that they were doing there. And I worked with to see which varieties might do well with our soil types. And then I worked with Julia Harding, you know, the Master of Wine, who's amazing, works with J. Robinson. And she recommended producers who had really great varieties that could be relevant for us and did a good job of them. And then they sent us their samples.
39:32 — Xavier Rolet
We only use master selection and we natural extracted from natural.
39:40 — Nicole Rolet
Yeah. So we had a great time blending with those wines. They would send us their unfinished wines. It was really exciting. And then it came time to bringing those wines in. We found out it's not just an appellation problem in France that just. Just not allowed to bring in some of these varieties that are in countries.
40:02 — Xavier Rolet
Other than France because they think they're.
40:04 — Matt Weiss
Going to bring in disease or who knows, whatever.
40:07 — Xavier Rolet
And so it's a long story about it.
40:11 — Matt Weiss
But you guys are both. You're both knights of agriculture in France.
40:15 — Xavier Rolet
You couldn't. Surely you could talk to somebody. You could be as stuck as possible. It's not just a comment about France, but Europe has a bureaucratic approach to things that is not always the easiest thing to change. Not that change is not possible. And I think Nicole, part of reason to acknowledge the French Ministry of Agriculture is she's made a contribution to the region. And also change is possible, but you have to be hugely patient.
40:49 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
40:49 — Xavier Rolet
Because it just doesn't happen fast. America, there's innovation. You get things done, bang. Then you move on to the next thing, which is why attraction of these great countries. Europe has a more geological pace in terms of change. It's going to be able to bring change, but possibly not as fast as you'd like. Yeah.
41:10 — Matt Weiss
And the other good thing about it is the subsidies for farmers in France and the way it supports its agriculture versus you mentioned last night about how our agriculture unit farmers getting 4 cents on a dollar. Before you answer that, by the way, I just wanted you to know that yes, you are the first knight on our show, but we did in that chair a few months ago, set the son of a knight, Sir Paul or the son of Sir Peter?
41:35 — Xavier Rolet
Michael.
41:35 — Matt Weiss
Paul. Michael. So I think just as we get and talk about the economics of wine and people ask, you know, you could buy wines over from France or Italy that are less expensive than wines we're getting from California or our own backyard in North Carolina. And I think a lot of that has to do with it also in most cases, from my perception that these lands have been paid off for hundreds, for centuries. You look at a neighbor of yours like Chateau de Stcombe. He's been since the 1600s. His family has paid off that land. So that big mortgage payment or payment for your land is not a factor in pricing your wines.
42:14 — Xavier Rolet
Yeah, I mean, each region or oil isn't just like wine or agriculture, manufacturing, services, what's called comparative advantages. Yes, some areas will have an advantage here or there, some might be very old, no longer have the fossil dramatization. And, and that's where trade and connectivity can be interesting, because as a consumer, you can benefit from the various advantages that different parts of the world provide. There was an economist, British economist, David Ricardo, published two centuries ago an interesting book on the natural theory compared to humanities. It's obviously a live topic for today's conversation. As far as agriculture in Europe and France, viticulture actually receives a lot less, far less in subsidies than people should think. Just to give you a sense, the auto industry collects about in France €10 billion of subsidies every year.
43:21 — Xavier Rolet
Auto manufacturing, viticulture is a little bit over 100 for the 75,000 vineyards that populate the French.
43:32 — Matt Weiss
Is that because the Germans control the finances of the EU?
43:35 — Xavier Rolet
Those are EU and France. And it's an interesting conversation that could take us a few more hours, probably more than you have to give us. You're making an important point that today Europe is run by Germany because although its economy has gone through a fair bit of its difficulties in the past couple years, it is clearly the big elephant in the room that drives most decisions. But when we look at agriculture, the truth today is that the farmers and producers and ranchers change the business set up pretty well as a group, on average, on a net basis, only collect a few cents out of every, let's say, food dollar that we as consumers might spend.
44:24 — Matt Weiss
You're saying in the US or.
44:26 — Xavier Rolet
You're saying in Europe, in most Western economies, the economics sign and most of the value accrues to milling, conditioning, processing, distribution, and of course the chemical. Yeah, viticulture in France, about 3.6% of arable land, but as I mentioned last night, consumes 20% of agrochemicals. A big part of what farmers and ranchers and producers spend goes into chemicals. And part of the attractiveness, if you can muster the process of organic regenerative agriculture, you do away with that spend. You spend a lot less if nothing on chemicals, but you have to spend a lot more on humors. Yeah, because it requires a lot more manual attention, a lot more follow up, much more frequent interventions when you get culture when it rains, you know, versus treatments for cryptogamic invasions, fungi.
45:27 — Xavier Rolet
And it is a different form of agriculture that can put a bit more money in the pocket of producers when it's. When it's done right. But it remains so that most of ag and the food supply chain very horizontally managed. You've got processing and distribution and those layers are highly concentrated. So you have essentially a very fragmented environment for producers. Walks and family farms of course a fragmented consumer environment. But in between rather than being vertically integrated the horizontal integration of food processing and distribution is highly concentrated. In the United States, for example, proteins and meat are processing control by. Yeah. And that creates an economic issues for consumers but also for producers. What can be done today? It's, it's a broad question. It's a lot of our studies that Nicole and I have undertaken at Harvard and other universities.
46:33 — Xavier Rolet
Can we leverage capital markets and particularly the power of the US capital market to re engineer food supply chain that is more advantageous to consumers and producers? It's a big question. The answers are not necessarily easy.
46:49 — Matt Weiss
Yeah.
46:50 — Xavier Rolet
And it's worth thinking about.
46:51 — Matt Weiss
And that's a huge lot of information to digest. And I'm just thinking on it like from where I can wrap my head around is it kind of butts up against my perception of France in general. You know being having going there. So many times you think about just your average baguette that you can buy, right. And you buy a sandwich from the gas station and my wife who's gluten free or you know she can eat the bread over there because you think oh well the way it's processed the non GMOs and you think it's a muscle much cleaner thing. But what you're telling me is competing with that because so much of the chemicals are. Is what's the main financing going into. So that I don't know now I have to rethink my consumption over there.
47:33 — Xavier Rolet
Different histories, different traditions. And within the agricultural world as well. There's a big debate on what I'm saying many people might disagree with. But we think we're at a little bit of a crossroads now and that fundamentally the reason why we undertook that which was our experiment besides wanting to be close to the land and produce a wine that would be the real expression of that terroir and be accessible to consumers a high quality product is we think that experimentation of new models. Agriculture today in general is ripe for innovation. Innovation sometimes involves disruption and what we can do at a very modest level other companies are doing. There are some very large luxury good companies. Nicole for example 6 of the. The board of the Living Soil foundation that's been created by LVMH famous luxury good company.
48:31 — Xavier Rolet
So there's also some big companies that have access to capital markets that are thinking of the future food. How do we offer food that does not make people sick, that doesn't consume as much of GDP, a lot of these inflammatory diseases, but food that's a more genuine expression of natural meat protein production. Natural wine, green wine is what Nicole has been working on. Cereals and other food that are actually going to make us healthier. And how do we produce that in a way that puts a little bit more of that share of the economics in the pockets of rural communities? Yeah, we've got not too happy for sure.
49:17 — Nicole Rolet
Well, according to our studies, it's a really a win, win situation for sure.
49:23 — Matt Weiss
Well, not for the insurance companies probably. Yeah. Who's probably the ones fighting against it?
49:34 — Nicole Rolet
Foreign.
49:40 — Matt Weiss
Welcome back to the Wine Centric Show.
49:42 — Matt Weiss
We've had a little bit of a kerfuffle here, but we've been able to.
49:45 — Matt Weiss
Reconvene and we're all ready to finish this wonderful conversation with Nicole and Xavier Rolet of Chêne Bleu. So Nicole, you were telling us after Xavier was explaining what we can do for the farmers and industrial agriculture, you were explaining about the effect on children from vineyards, either positive or negative management. Would you take us through that again?
50:11 — Nicole Rolet
Absolutely. There was just so much noise around this topic of synthetic chemicals, glyphosate, are they bad, are they necessary, how bad are they? All of that. And so I used our time at Harvard to do a deep dive in the library to look at really the published research instead of all the latest comments from Instagrammers and was really surprised to see these peer reviewed pieces showing how there's increased risk of cancer in children in concentric circles around vineyards that spray. So in fact people were surprised that in these rural communities all these children were coming in with cancer. So the scientists with a compass drew these circles around the vineyards and saw these high concentrations of cancer that they have linked quite definitively to these practices. So it's like, whoa, I don't think that's something that in the wine trade is really clear.
51:19 — Nicole Rolet
I don't think when somebody is recommending a bottle they're consciously thinking, oh you dear client, would you like this one that gives cancer to children or the super one that is protecting the planet, the biodiversity, the health of the people who are drinking it and more generally the oceans and climate change and all the other good stuff. So I think the good news is that as people become more aware, more conscious of the choices that they have, they will become hopefully increasingly excited about the unintended positive consequences that result from them making choices for what I like to call green wine. Things made without these synthetic chemicals.
52:08 — Matt Weiss
Yeah, I know we have organic, we have biodynamic or Demeter certified. These certifications can also be confusing at some times, and some people might say that they're marketing employees. I know you guys are one of the pioneers in farming regeneratively, which is a hot button issue again, but that is hard for the consumer who's at a restaurant or in a shop to see and understand that. So fill us in on how the consumer can feel confident in making a choice. Well, these winemakers, this winery is being environmentally conscious.
52:46 — Nicole Rolet
Look, we're all learning as we go. And with the breakthroughs in technology, et cetera, it's a little bit of a, a moving target. But today the gold standard is regenerative organic. Organic because you're not using these synthetic chemicals. Regenerative because organic doesn't imply necessarily the no till, the COVID crops between the rows, the biodiversity monitoring, bringing in or protecting the plants and the trees in the natural environment as well as the microorganisms, animal corridors, all the good stuff. So I think that's the ideal thing, but for consumers that can be cumbersome to find your way to that information. That's why I just call it green wine as shorthand. So in there I have organic, sustainable, natural, bee friendly, regenerative, all of those.
53:47 — Nicole Rolet
And biodynamic, of course, all of those practices in a big soup, just to keep it simple while they find their way into this complicated space. And for that, I created a website called the Green Wine Initiative, which is just a public service resource to make it easy for people to start reconnecting with either the published research or filmography, if they prefer to learn things that way, some general background information, and especially a bunch of organizations that are all doing a great job in their areas to help foster this research and spread this information so that consumer can start finding their way to wines that are produced that way.
54:35 — Nicole Rolet
The quickest, easiest thing is if you're in a restaurant or in a wine shop and you want to see if a certain wine is or isn't made a certain way, you just put in the name of the wine that you like and the word organic or something like that, and then AI will spit up a little summary that will give you a sense of what kind of practices that vineyard is currently engaged with. And then you can decide how important that stuff is for you. So, you know, the exciting thing about the wine world is that there's room for everyone,Real quick, just the Green Wine Initiative. So it's greenwineinitiative.com or how and there are many ways to skin that cat. It's not to be proselytic or imperial, impose a certain way of doing things. It's just to help people gain information, whether they're in the trade, whether they're critics, or whether they're wine consumers.
55:22 — Nicole Rolet
The more they learn about this topic, the easier it will be for them to make an informed decision about what's important to them.
55:29 — Xavier Rolet
Amazing.
55:31 — Matt Weiss
Real quick, just the Green Wine Initiative. So it's greenwineinitiative.com or how do you get involved?
55:38 — Nicole Rolet
TGWI so the Green Wine Initiative.
55:45 — Matt Weiss
Okay.
55:46 — Nicole Rolet
It's just a start. I'm open to suggestions, feedback. If anyone. Or we know that they have a Squarespace domain, so check that out and see how you can get involved if this moves you. So that's a great transition and segue into the wines because we've talked a little bit about the Viognier and the Aliot earlier in the conversation, but we haven't talked about the. Which is an ageable and a. The two reds. Well, actually more than the two reds, but we'll talk about the Abélard and Héloïse as well. Do those wines have any official certifications on the back? Are they Demeter certified organic? What does the labels look like on notices something on there that they disagree with or something that I could have added, just get in touch. Happy to open the conversation and make sure that it's part of this vibrant discussion around what the future of fine wine should be.
56:09 — Matt Weiss
I love it. The Green Wine Initiative. Go Google that. Or we know that they have a Squarespace domain, so check that out and see how you can get involved if this moves you. So that's a great transition and segue into the wines because we've talked a little bit about the Viognier and the Aliot earlier in the conversation, but we haven't talked about the. Which is an ageable and a. The two reds. Well, actually more than the two reds, but we'll talk about the Abélard and Héloïse as well. Do those wines have any official certifications on the back? Are they Demeter certified organic? What does the labels look like on the back there?
56:51 — Nicole Rolet
Yep. So Organic HVE, which is the French environmental certification process, the highest level, HVE 3 on those. Bee friendly. I think bees are a great shorthand for monitoring that all your practices, in the end up supporting nature. I think most people know now that bees are so foundational to how our ecology works and the survival of our food systems and therefore of our species. So if you're doing right by the bees, you're helping them do right by us. And. And that's why we have the sustainability initiative that is showing that more bees make better wine. And it's part of a bigger way of thinking about vineyard management holistically. So all our wines have all these certifications, and our in particular stands out with the fact that many all of the impact of those things on not just the quality of the wine, but also how it affects the aging potential. Right. So as soon as you put in tartaric acid, it starts to separate. And that's why they always say you have to drink wine within the first. The rosés within the, unfortunately, by the very nature of.
58:00 — Nicole Rolet
Of how they're made and why they're made that way, are often full of chemicals, full of additives, microplastics for defining. And tartaric acid. Xavier was one of the first to sort of call out all of the impact of those things on not just the quality of the wine, but also how it affects the aging potential. Right. So as soon as you put in tartaric acid, it starts to separate. And that's why they always say you have to drink wine within the first. The rosés within the first year, when in fact, that's not at all the case when you're not using those things. That's why we've done verticals of our back to 2006, our first vintage. And they're drinking, they're still fresh as daisies. So it's win situation when you back away from all the artifice.
59:00 — Matt Weiss
Yeah.
59:01 — Matt Weiss
And the blend on the would be.
59:06 — Nicole Rolet
It's usually Grenache Syrah base. And then Xavier, you have that, your favorite Mourvèdre in there on most vintages. And then Cinsault will have a bunch of whites. It'll change a lot year to year. And some claret, some Vermentino hot years of. We're supposed to call it Rolle. But it's a great way to add freshness on a hot year without having partially made red wine that's sort of still, you know, a little clear, doesn't have those deep colors. And sell it as. That is not the practice we follow. We raise our grapes for specifically for that purpose. It's carbonation, as you've heard. Cinsault, some Grenache, bit of Mourvèdre. And through the direct press process, we are able to control the exposure of the juices, which, as you've heard before, is essentially naturally sugared water with the skins to get sensitive to what's in the bottle or what's in the glass, and they're very sensitive to the impact on ecology, to the impact on human health. So if you use things like polyvinyl, polypyrrolidone, which is a microplastic, which we know are not solubles, but ultimately can cause plaques and cardiovascular disease, if the industry goes quiet about it, at some point somebody's going to make the point and then customers are going to, oh, I didn't know there was, you know, there were microplastics in my has made the wine industry. You spend more on people. You need greater, more frequent intervention in the vineyard, different ways of working. And that's something that you find in many other aspects of agriculture. You find that in ranching, you find that in cereal. And I do think younger generations are aware of to use any tartaric acid.
59:34 — Xavier Rolet
Yeah.
59:35 — Matt Weiss
And you guys use the direct press method, right?
59:38 — Xavier Rolet
Yes. I mean, as you said, the Saignée style essentially is a draft, where historically, many viticulturists, as they make their red wine early in the process, before the wine has too much an opportunity to stay with the lees and the skins, we'll simply draft. We'll draw some of that. If you want partially made red wine that's sort of still, you know, a little clear, doesn't have those deep colors. And sell it as. That is not the practice we follow. We raise our grapes for specifically for that purpose. It's carbonation, as you've heard. Cinsault, some Grenache, bit of Mourvèdre. And through the direct press process, we are able to control the exposure of the juices, which, as you've heard before, is essentially naturally sugared water with the skins to get to that particular color and that particular quality that we're aiming for.
01:00:53 — Xavier Rolet
Nicole mentioned earlier, again, I think this is something that at some point the wine industry will have to come clean on, because younger generations who are said not to like wine, actually, they. They do like wine. They do like sensory pleasure, they do like great cuisine, but they're very sensitive to what's in the bottle or what's in the glass, and they're very sensitive to the impact on ecology, to the impact on human health. So if you use things like polyvinyl, polypyrrolidone, which is a microplastic, which we know are not solubles, but ultimately can cause plaques and cardiovascular disease, if the industry goes quiet about it, at some point somebody's going to make the point and then customers are going to, oh, I didn't know there was, you know, there were microplastics in my rosé and there was tartaric acid.
01:01:49 — Xavier Rolet
So I think the industry has an opportunity to offer diversified product. We moved away from these products almost from the very beginning. But that also means you need to have a different approach as to what you plant, where you plant it, and what we see. And this is not specific to viticulture. When you move away from chemicals, you obviously save a lot of money, but you end up spending a lot more on the one thing that is essential and that historically has made the wine industry. You spend more on people. You need greater, more frequent intervention in the vineyard, different ways of working. And that's something that you find in many other aspects of agriculture. You find that in ranching, you find that in cereal. And I do think younger generations are aware of that.
01:02:38 — Xavier Rolet
Now, as Nicole said, it's still a little bit unclear. You know, people might say, what's the difference between organic and regenerative? Organic, simple. You don't use synthetic chemicals that cause harm to the planet and to human health. What is regenerative? Regenerative is really working with the natural environment, helping restore the natural functions, the bacterial activity in the soil. Rather than using toxic chemicals that ultimately end in the aquifer, they end in the rivers, they end in the oceans, where they destroy the phyt the oceans and we've been increasing the warming of the subsurface of the ocean, destroying phytoplankton, promoting the expansion of essentially water vapor, which is the number one greenhouse gas. So that's a bigger picture. Of course, we're not going the reds that maybe you didn't think were your top cuvée. It was a way to basically merchandise it. And adding a lot of chemicals, you were able to impact the color, impact the taste. But again, consumers are becoming aware of that, particularly by younger generations. The wine industry today is facing a challenge. You hear everywhere about, you know, younger generation consuming less of it. Maybe they go towards other things. You know, there's obviously some stiff competition between the cannabis industry and the wine industry. And the wine industry hasn't been particularly good at articulating why its products, when made a certain way, can zero alcohol is the only healthcare policy has been debunked by scientists, including some of our fellow scientists at Harvard. Consumption of alcoholic, high quality, particularly high quality red wine in small quantities can be good for you. There's a lot of evidence that supports that. I accept that it's a am an advocate for transparency as well as Grenache, which is one of the stars of the next two wines we're going to talk about. Nicole, if you want to. Let's finish up with talking about the Abélard and Héloïse, the star crossed lovers. Tell us about being far south and high up, having this micro terroir, the special geology, the special microclimate that we have from the altitude and from being in the heart of the forest on the edge of a tectonic plate. How do you do the thing that is going against all the trends, which was those days, all the advice was, oh, take a small cuvée of your top grapes and put them into some fancy little blend that you send to three critics, and then chuck all the other stuff into some second wine and shove it out the door for low price.oplankton and deeply impact. It's the number one engine of climate. There's nothing as big as that and will impact our weather. We're seeing a lot of weather disturbances.
01:03:27 — Xavier Rolet
They come 100%, all of them, from the fact that we've been damaging the oceans and we've been increasing the warming of the subsurface of the ocean, destroying phytoplankton, promoting the expansion of essentially water vapor, which is the number one greenhouse gas. So that's a bigger picture. Of course, we're not going to go into all the details, but as a viticulturist, even if you're small, there's things you can do to change the economic nature of what you do. Spend more money on people, less on chemicals, or none offer a product that is much healthier. But also, according to regenerative practices much better for the planet.
01:04:10 — Xavier Rolet
Rosé, I think, is probably emblematic of that because as you said, coming from Saignée, it was a little bit of a, I would say an Ersatz product, you know, with something you took out of the reds that maybe you didn't think were your top cuvée. It was a way to basically merchandise it. And adding a lot of chemicals, you were able to impact the color, impact the taste. But again, consumers are becoming aware of that, particularly by younger generations. The wine industry today is facing a challenge. You hear everywhere about, you know, younger generation consuming less of it. Maybe they go towards other things. You know, there's obviously some stiff competition between the cannabis industry and the wine industry. And the wine industry hasn't been particularly good at articulating why its products, when made a certain way, can be good for you.
01:05:06 — Xavier Rolet
But younger generations are responsive to it, and I think the wine industry has an opportunity to, going forward, make a clear case for how we can better respect the environment, better respect human health. The notion that zero alcohol is the only healthcare policy has been debunked by scientists, including some of our fellow scientists at Harvard. Consumption of alcoholic, high quality, particularly high quality red wine in small quantities can be good for you. There's a lot of evidence that supports that. I accept that it's a current debate, but I think the wine industry needs to do more, to be more transparent, because eventually this will come out. So why not take the initiative and to make a case for how, in combination with great cuisine, high quality, organic, regeneratively produced wines can actually be good for you.
01:06:10 — Xavier Rolet
And not to mention, of course, the social impact. You know, we live in societies that are fragmenting, where people like to find opportunities to have debates, disputes. And sometimes, as we can see, it gets worse than that. Wine is one of the oldest social instruments of a reconciliation. So we should be conscious of that as well and try to promote, in our view, at least, a better quality product to support these social goals.
01:06:46 — Xavier Rolet
Well said.
01:06:47 — Matt Weiss
And I am an advocate for transparency as well as Grenache, which is one of the stars of the next two wines we're going to talk about. Nicole, if you want to. Let's finish up with talking about the Abélard and Héloïse, the star crossed lovers. Tell us about those wines and how.
01:07:09 — Nicole Rolet
Are they flagship reds?
01:07:10 — Matt Weiss
Yeah, the flagship reds.
01:07:13 — Nicole Rolet
It was very interesting when we first started blending our wines and deciding how we wanted to showcase the most interesting things about that vineyard. You know, being far south and high up, having this micro terroir, the special geology, the special microclimate that we have from the altitude and from being in the heart of the forest on the edge of a tectonic plate. How do you do the thing that is going against all the trends, which was those days, all the advice was, oh, take a small cuvée of your top grapes and put them into some fancy little blend that you send to three critics, and then chuck all the other stuff into some second wine and shove it out the door for low price. That was pretty much the advice were giving over and over. We were like, no, we just spent.
01:08:18 — Nicole Rolet
Spent 12 years restoring this vineyard to try to showcase what's so special about it. And it was much more interesting to us to show the two faces of this, which is being far south, having a very wonderful Grenache. Grenache, king of the southern Rhône, with all that wonderful mommy and mouth fill. And our Syrah, which is this much more Northern Rhône, elegant, restrained Syrah in the style of a Côte-Rôtie, rather than the warmer, fatter, bigger Syrah that you typically find on our latitude. And the idea became to show the yin and yang by having one, the Abélard, be a Grenache base with a bit of Syrah, and then the other, the Syrah, with a little bit of Grenache, and then can get a hologram of the full wingspan of this tiny little vineyard to make these wines that are similar but different, and hopefully each great in their own way. But when you put them side by side, you really understand everything you can do in this tiny little location. And that's exactly exciting for us. So the intention is to have the Héloïse in honor of Héloïse of Argenteuil, who was the lover of Abelard in this extraordinary true story from the 12th century. And that's why they're their most famous French lovers. It's so many books written about them, et cetera. She had this incredible intellect. She was such an impressive person. She also had emotional intelligence, of charm and sex appeal. And often set the kind of more restrained style of the Syrah. So that's Héloïse and then the Abélard, which is our big boy, which is supposed to have this really lovely mouthfeel. Good saturation of flavor and fruit from all that sunshine. But always reigned in, held back by the fact that at lot of presence. And I think it's one of the reasons that it tends to age very well and that we're drinking our vintages all the way back to our very first, the one 20 years ago, still drinking very well. So the idea is to have that contrast and have them very different with food pairings. I like to say that Abélard likes fur and Héloïse likes feathers in the sense of big, bold, salty, spicy, greasy or fatty. Smoky flavors go very well. Fat, the gaminess, and then on Héloïse, the white meats and the more delicate Héloïse. Of course, some of it being a love story, was steamy and reflected the social mores of the day, as Nicole said. Also they had a deeper impact and maybe this is where we connect with them a little bit. To answer your question, Abélard, who as a scholar really challenged the religious consensus at the time and to look at essentially the sort of biblical scriptures and basically took a new look that led to innovation, new thinking, Reformation. In an environment where things. Our enterprise is a modest one, although we try to make it global and innovate in our own way. But there's always room for looking at innovation and looking at doing things a little bit different if your purpose is to try to offer a better product. We're differently with nature. So both of them, Abélard and Héloïse were pioneers in their time. They were innovators, and they brought new ideas, even though it was obviously early, that ultimately changed, certainly their world changed what we know International Symposium and Grenache Day, and I'll just kind of speak for you on that, is that this is a wonderful advocacy of Grenache. And. And most of us in the wine business, we. We truly love this grape because it fits just harmoniously in between who like to think about fine wine and where it should be going and put their thoughts and ideas together to collectively decide what address to put in the GPS. We are often put in the bucket of sort of those wines worth thinking about, talking about the thinking person's wine, that kind of thing. So for our 10 the fine wine world is going and how should we all work together to get it there? And coming from a think tank background, I thought that was a good way to start it. And I got to work with Pauline Vicard, who's now the person running the entire organization. It's her baby. I just share it. And she's terrific. And it's been fabulous to bring all these people together. So you should definitely check out Areni Global, sign up for newsletters and all that good stuff. And if you really like the work and you really want to participate in that conversation, you can always join as a member and a thinking person's wine. So if I love your thoughtful approach to the winemaking and to the really, the whole environment around the wine centricity of it all, to use a pun there. So I appreciate you sharing your story on the show. And for all of you out there, like we said a secret ingredient which happens to be a white wine, in this case Roussanne.
01:09:15 — Nicole Rolet
And so the idea is, when you put them together, you can get a hologram of the full wingspan of this tiny little vineyard to make these wines that are similar but different, and hopefully each great in their own way. But when you put them side by side, you really understand everything you can do in this tiny little location. And that's exactly exciting for us. So the intention is to have the Héloïse in honor of Héloïse of Argenteuil, who was the lover of Abelard in this extraordinary true story from the 12th century. And that's why they're their most famous French lovers. It's so many books written about them, et cetera. She had this incredible intellect. She was such an impressive person. She also had emotional intelligence, managerial intelligence.
01:10:08 — Nicole Rolet
She really marked her era and has gone down in all the annals of most famous female philosophers, et cetera. And the idea is to have an elegant, restrained Syrah, but with some of the fleshiness that comes from our warmer climate, Grenache, and then the je ne sais quoi that comes from the beautiful perfumes of the Roussanne, give it a bit of charm and sex appeal. And often set the kind of more restrained style of the Syrah. So that's Héloïse and then the Abélard, which is our big boy, which is supposed to have this really lovely mouthfeel. Good saturation of flavor and fruit from all that sunshine. But always reigned in, held back by the fact that at the cooler climate we get a very masculine, muscular, taut Grenache. I was thinking about parallels and think about a Labrador versus a Weimaraner.
01:11:17 — Nicole Rolet
A lot of the Grenache in the south has the much softer texture. Ours really has a lot of presence. And I think it's one of the reasons that it tends to age very well and that we're drinking our vintages all the way back to our very first, the one 20 years ago, still drinking very well. So the idea is to have that contrast and have them very different with food pairings. I like to say that Abélard likes fur and Héloïse likes feathers in the sense of big, bold, salty, spicy, greasy or fatty. Smoky flavors go very well. Fat, the gaminess, and then on Héloïse, the white meats and the more delicate flavors.
01:12:09 — Matt Weiss
And is it said that you're Héloïse and Xavier is Abélard?
01:12:16 — Xavier Rolet
Oh, I hope not, considering how he finished.
01:12:19 — Matt Weiss
Yeah, without the ending.
01:12:21 — Xavier Rolet
But we will let your.
01:12:23 — Xavier Rolet
Your audience look up. It might be a good little interest. There's something you can give their children or something, a little history investigation to look up the medieval history of Abélard and Héloïse. Of course, some of it being a love story, was steamy and reflected the social mores of the day, as Nicole said. Also they had a deeper impact and maybe this is where we connect with them a little bit. To answer your question, Abélard, who as a scholar really challenged the religious consensus at the time and to look at essentially the sort of biblical scriptures and basically took a new look that led to innovation, new thinking, Reformation. In an environment where were really looking at the beginning of the European universities, their early origin. So research challenge, frankly, disruption was part of what he brought.
01:13:32 — Xavier Rolet
That went all the way up to later on, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th century, the Reformation, eventually the Enlightenment. So we don't necessarily identify with all of these things. Our enterprise is a modest one, although we try to make it global and innovate in our own way. But there's always room for looking at innovation and looking at doing things a little bit different if your purpose is to try to offer a better product. We're differently with nature. So both of them, Abélard and Héloïse were pioneers in their time. They were innovators, and they brought new ideas, even though it was obviously early, that ultimately changed, certainly their world changed what we know of Europe today, and we know how these philosophies were later taken to other parts of the world, and we try to emulate them in a very modest fashion.
01:14:37 — Matt Weiss
I love it. I mean, disruption, or just never underestimate the needs of a man when lusting after a woman he wants can disrupt the entire religious faction of what was the milieu of the time.
01:14:51 — Xavier Rolet
But that still goes on, I believe, modern history and, you know, just reading, picking up the newspapers. These ancient mores and motivations of mankind. The pleasures of flesh, of course, pleasures of the palate, but also the need to connect and socialize. And food and wine had been there a long time for a very good reason. So they're not going away. And if we can offer a story as well as a better deal to modern consumers, particularly younger generations of consumers who are looking for authenticity, they're looking for something more respectful of planet that is on offer. And, you know, we do think they will. They will. They will get to it eventually.
01:15:44 — Matt Weiss
I agree. And even beyond this, you're obviously the thoughtful approach with history, ecology, environment, you know, all of this. The human. The human plight, it goes on. Nicole, you've started the Grenache International Symposium and Grenache Day, and I'll just kind of speak for you on that, is that this is a wonderful advocacy of Grenache. And. And most of us in the wine business, we. We truly love this grape because it fits just harmoniously in between. To simplify, the king of Cabernet Sauvignon, that's can be powerful and sometimes austere, and then in the opposite end, Pinot Noir, which can be light and savory, but also complex and interesting. Grenache kind of fits right in the middle. So it's just this beautiful thing. And Grenache.
01:16:41 — Matt Weiss
Grenache Day is typically the third Friday of September every year, is that correct?
01:16:47 — Nicole Rolet
That's right. And it's an opportunity to just pop some Grenache corks, explore this very global grape, this eco superstar that has fantastic deep roots that can power drill their way to subterranean water tables. So they're very optimized for climate change. They're also very exciting because they come in every price point, every style, and you can find your way to great Grenache that really suits both your palate and your wallet. And so it's the unsung hero of the wine world. And we've been working hard to try to right that wrong. And we're very happy that more and more people who make Grenache are willing to offer some single variety options. It blends very well with other grapes.
01:17:44 — Nicole Rolet
And Grenache Day is just a fantastic opportunity to get some friends together and enjoy that togetherness that comes from opening a bottle or several and talking about them with friends and sharing a lovely evening. And we really appreciate the togetherness that comes from wine. Grenache is a great way to enjoy it.
01:18:08 — Nicole Rolet
Yeah.
01:18:08 — Matt Weiss
And it's coming up soon, so stock up on your Grenache for International Grenache Day. And then the last thing I wanted touch on really quickly was the Areni Global Institute. So this is your Fine Minds for Wines, which was a mission to really. Well, I'll let you speak to the mission of Areni, but I will also color it with the fact that it's the name of the grape that was found in Armenia, which Paul Hobbs discussed on this show over a year ago. And the initial origins, perhaps, or the oldest wine making facilities known to mankind.
01:18:51 — Nicole Rolet
That's right. That was the. The choice of the name came from this idea that because it was the oldest winery on record. And this organization is dedicated to discussing and promoting the future of fine wine by bringing together a community of wine lovers and wine experts around the world who like to think about fine wine and where it should be going and put their thoughts and ideas together to collectively decide what address to put in the GPS. We are often put in the bucket of sort of those wines worth thinking about, talking about the thinking person's wine, that kind of thing. So for our 10th anniversary, we thought that was a good way to celebrate is figure out, okay, it's fine that in the first 10 years we've accomplished these things, but more importantly, there's so much more work to do.
01:19:51 — Nicole Rolet
And more importantly, where do we think the fine wine world is going and how should we all work together to get it there? And coming from a think tank background, I thought that was a good way to start it. And I got to work with Pauline Vicard, who's now the person running the entire organization. It's her baby. I just share it. And she's terrific. And it's been fabulous to bring all these people together. So you should definitely check out Areni Global, sign up for newsletters and all that good stuff. And if you really like the work and you really want to participate in that conversation, you can always join as a member. But there's a lot of content that we share just for anybody who's curious and likes to think systemically about these things.
01:20:39 — Matt Weiss
I love it.
01:20:40 — Matt Weiss
Well, it's very clear. This is a thinking person's winery and a thinking person's wine. So if I love your thoughtful approach to the winemaking and to the really, the whole environment around the wine centricity of it all, to use a pun there. So I appreciate you sharing your story on the show. And for all of you out there, like we said, join the Grenache advocacy, join the Areni Global Institute and find yourself some Chêne Bleu wines. And you will drink deliciously. Thank you.