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Deep conversations with underrated lawyers.
This is Horum with Horum's Quorum. My guest today is Sunny Kim. Sunny practiced in Big Law and then did a big reset to discover her passion for helping lawyers find and share their voice through social media. So we're doing something we don't normally do in this podcast. We're gonna talk about some specific approaches lawyers can use to improve their LinkedIn presence.
Khurram Naik:So let's get into it. Here's Sunny. Alright, Sunny. I'm excited to do this with you. This is gonna be very different than the format I've done in the past.
Khurram Naik:Usually, I do, like, a two hour deep dive. We're aiming for, like, forty minutes here. This is gonna be short and punchy. We're gonna dive into LinkedIn for lawyers. This is a topic that means a lot to me because I'm so active on LinkedIn.
Khurram Naik:And you have just kind of blown up on the scene, and you're doing such a great job of of sharing content for lawyers for how to be active on LinkedIn, and sharing your story about how you came to this, which itself is so remarkable. So there's not a chance we're gonna cover all the things I wanna cover in forty minutes, but I think this would be an interesting short, punchy overview of of LinkedIn, and and and a little bit about how you've come to it.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. I'm excited.
Khurram Naik:So then, so you practice in big law. You're a tax lawyer, and now you teach lawyers about how to use LinkedIn, and I think you do some other consultations as well. Tell me about give me the short of this story because I think it's it's it's such a remarkable story.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. Sure. I as you said, I was at Davis Polk and then at Gunderson, and I practiced as a tax associate there for at at two places for about four years. And then most recently, I was at a private equity fund as an in house counsel and doing some tax and fund formation work there. And last year, I I think I just burned out.
Sunny Kim:And I knew it was time to leave when I realized that I have the best teammates, like, best boss. I'm doing substantive work that's interesting. And if I still feel kind of lost, like, I'm not sure what my next step is in life, and I'm not sure what's my reason for getting up, and I don't feel super pumped about every day, I was like, I think I need to just kind of give myself a break and figure out what it is excites me and what I wanna do. So I just put in my notice without anything really lined up, which I know is very risky, but I always loved writing, and I naturally just gravitated towards it. And after two months of quitting, I just put up a post on LinkedIn about the two things that I feel like I gained since I quit my job.
Sunny Kim:One of them is control of my time, which I value very much now. And that post just resonated with a lot of people. It's the first post I wrote on LinkedIn, and I think 60,000 people read it, which was huge at the time because I didn't have, like, a ton of connections.
Khurram Naik:Excuse me. That is huge, I have to say.
Sunny Kim:So it just resonated with a lot of people. And since then, I've been writing on LinkedIn, and I just had a lot of lawyers and even founders and executives just reach out to me asking how I write and if I could help them write as well. So I started doing that for free in the beginning, and then people were getting results. Like, they were getting clients. They were getting seen, like, job opportunities.
Sunny Kim:So they were like, I think this is a valuable service. Like, you should charge me for this, which is how my business started. And so now I I've been writing content for primarily for lawyers and also coaching them if they wanna do more writing themselves, but just giving them more instruction on how to optimize the format and the types of topics that work really well on LinkedIn. So that's my short story.
Khurram Naik:That's awesome. And, you know, it's funny because, you know, I was a patent litigator, and just routinely, people make comments about patent litigators aren't famous for their personalities. I remember I worked with a Tassler earlier in my career. I didn't work with her directly, but worked at a firm with her. And we were going we we had an icebreaker.
Khurram Naik:We're going around the room, and she said like, we're all asked, like, what's your favorite book? And unironically unironically, she swore up and down. She meant it. She said her favorite book is Internal Revenue Code. So that's I think that's what patent and tax lawyers are better known for is that sort of so, I mean, I I love that, you know, you are you're like a breath of fresh air, I think.
Sunny Kim:Thank you. That's funny that you say patent litigators have that sort of rep, at least maybe among themselves. I two of my clients were actually patent litigators, and I think they write very interesting stuff. There's so much out there. Like, I think I mean, it's not Patton, but one of the attorneys who attended one of my sessions, she wrote about the White Lotus and how there's a character on the show who wears Duke gear pretty regularly, and if that's a trademark issue that for Duke anyways because he's kind of a shady character.
Sunny Kim:And that's like so she sees those little things just from watching shows like media. There's a lot of, like, trademark and patent issues that people may be very curious about, I think, especially with fashion brands as well. So I feel like there's a lot of intersection of, like, hot topics and trademark or patent law. So I feel like compared to tax law, you guys probably have a more interesting take on people things that people care about, but that's interesting that you guys have that sort of rep amongst yourselves.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. For sure. And, yeah, I I think there's lots of ways to take, you know, pretty dry topics to make them interesting. I think we probably all had experience of, you know, maybe say school and law school a course in law school or or undergraduate where there was a topic there's a course heading into it that we thought was gonna be really boring, then somebody really made it come alive through skillful storytelling and and vivid anecdotes. And so I'm really struck with your LinkedIn presence.
Khurram Naik:I think you do a great job of sharing helpful ideas, sharing moments and vignettes from your life, even really small ones, but that still help people get some sense of of of insight and transformation. I I feel like I think it'd be really interesting there's so many ways we can jump off and talk about LinkedIn for you and what works for you. I think the storytelling part is really interesting to me because I sense that you intuitively, or maybe you're doing it in a structured way, you include transformation. I think that's a key part of every part of your story, like, you know, from that first post about, you know, how you came to quit your job, and then, you know, we're just figuring things out, and then and then that iterative process of sharing publicly of what you're working on and building, and getting people to bought in and cheering you on in your story, it seems to me a transformation is a key part of that. Right?
Khurram Naik:Just even the smallest moments. What was the transformation that I experienced that is insight to someone else? Does that resonate with you?
Sunny Kim:It totally does. And that's interesting you mentioned that. I haven't I hadn't thought of it that way, but I'm just thinking back to a couple of my last posts. And, yeah, there is definitely that transformation arc. And I think that I think that kind of content resonates with a lot of professionals, but especially lawyers because I think my sense is, you know, our profession, there's a tendency for people to want to show they're more like, the most perfect side of themselves.
Sunny Kim:Right? And you wanna be perceived in this really polished way, which I totally understand that comes with the territory. But I've seen from not just my own content, but from other lawyers who are sharing stories where they highlight transformations where, like, we've all been in that place where we felt a little bit underprepared or just, you know, kinda trial by fire in a way, and we weren't fully we didn't feel fully equipped to handle the responsibility we're given. But somehow, we had people alongside us, or maybe we just figured it out on our own and got to from point x to y. Those stories work really well because I think so few lawyers are willing to be vulnerable about that.
Sunny Kim:But that earns people's trust because I think so few people are willing to share that. And it is really showing your growth, right, and your maturity and your ability to even thank other people who are working with you to get to that transformation. So I think it builds a lot of trust, and that's actually helped not just me, but a lawyer client of mine get client leads because there's just a lot of lawyers out there who are really good at what they do. But I think the people that like, the lawyers that people want to work with are lawyers that they feel like they have a connection to and they trust. And I think sharing stories like that build that trust.
Sunny Kim:So
Khurram Naik:I think trust is such an interesting word that you're connecting here because, yeah, I'm so interested with the connection between trust and insight. And and maybe the way that I'll explore because I think how lawyers typically think they earn trust, you hear it all the time, is, oh, if you just do really good work, that's what you'll make you trust me. You'll see that I'm excellent in court. I I win all these cases, or, you know, I we get all these deals done, whatever it is. I think lawyers publicly and maybe privately as well assume that that is the direct connection.
Khurram Naik:And I think lawyers are very skeptical of things like they know that relationships are important, and I think they're still very skeptical of that. Mhmm. I guess when we explore I guess I'll be interested in your take on that. What what is the connection between trust and some of that the concept around vulnerability you're talking? Because I think so many lawyers think it's, oh, it's trust equals skills.
Khurram Naik:Know, like, oh, show you my skills and outcomes. That's what make you trust me.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. I mean, I think it's there's a lot of layers to building trust. So I do think there is a lot of validity in establishing trust through good doing good work, obviously. And there's also trust that's built by sharing helpful information with people. So if you are the lawyer that is proactively educating clients, let's say, if you're a fund lawyer like me and you are sharing knowledge on LinkedIn about different financing options for anyone who wants to raise funds for, like, a startup or something, then I feel like because you are providing that helpful information to someone proactively, you are kind of establishing that trust.
Sunny Kim:And then once they know about you, then they're gonna be able to check you out and read about the different matters you've worked on to even build that trust further. But the thing is, I think there's a lot of lawyers who win a lot of cases, do great work, have a lot of transactions on their resume. But I think that next level is establishing, like, do I wanna actually work with this person? Does this person seem like someone that I could see myself actually collaborating with and enjoying the process with? And I think that's where the more vulnerable sort of yeah.
Sunny Kim:I'm a team player, and I acknowledge other people who work with me. And I'm mature person who shows that like, who is able to show that I am growing and I'm not perfect, I think that's where people kind of connect on a deeper level aside from just doing good work or showing that you've done good work.
Khurram Naik:Your your comment on the growing thing is so interesting. Like, I it's so interesting because I value growth, and I communicate around how I grow on LinkedIn, but I didn't tie that directly to the value to a client to say, oh, you are willing to say you're not perfect and grow because I think even I assume that clients want someone who is fully formed and perfect or whatever. So, like, I I I I think I share it. Gosh. Why do I why do I share that then about my personal growth?
Khurram Naik:I I guess maybe it maybe I guess maybe I'm I I do I guess I intuitively did it for the reason you're describing without realizing it. I guess what I'll say in Yeah.
Sunny Kim:I I suppose where you do that.
Khurram Naik:Okay. Because, I mean, I'll say that, you know, like, I explicitly have a formula that I I keep in mind for myself and I share for other people, which is I think the goal is I had a mentor early in my legal career, a litigator, who a simple principle that he used in his advocacy was rather than disparaging the opponent or getting hung up on some technical aspects of of of their brief whatever, what he would do is say, what opposing counsel has done is not helpful. Here's what's helpful. So his north star was helpful. And I have that has been my north star since then as well.
Khurram Naik:I find it to be such a a powerful tool as to focus on what is helpful. Mhmm. And so for me, for LinkedIn in particular, I think I have a simple formula. Helpful equals vulnerability plus insight. That's my simple formula for LinkedIn because we've all seen one or the other.
Khurram Naik:We we think things that are imbalanced on vulnerability or imbalanced insights. So if it's got too much insight, then it's just like, here is a digest of the latest supreme court decision. And just like, okay. I've got, like, the raw facts and legal analysis you just dumped on me, but I can't connect to this dry subject matter, or even if I'm interested in the subject matter, it's just like, and now what? What do I do with this now?
Khurram Naik:Okay, so I have these facts. I lodge them somewhere in my head. Now what? And then you, lawyer, I know nothing about you. Yes, I know that you're I can see from this digest that you're capable of reading a Supreme Court decision and distilling the essence of down, and okay, that's helpful that you're able to make something complex into bullet points.
Khurram Naik:That's valuable, but other people can do that too, and just why would I work with you versus another lawyer? What's what's good about you or your platform? So that's that's the imbalance in in insight. Inbalance of vulnerability are people come and just dump all their emotions like, I cried in my office. It was so hard to get through this day, and stuff like, okay, and what do I that's human.
Khurram Naik:I get that. You know Yeah. Had emotional experiences. I get that, but what do I do with that? You know?
Khurram Naik:So both are very extreme both aren't actual. They're not But if you combine the two Yeah. Then what I'm showing you is like, hey. Here's some maybe some hard won insight. I gained this insight through some hard won experience, so vulnerable plus insight.
Khurram Naik:And so then it just becomes a lot more relatable to say, okay. Yes. So, I see how all of us will experience challenges, I see now how you can get insights on the other end of that, they can be counterintuitive, so I relate to you in that you went through something difficult and got something valuable out of it, now you're sharing with me, that's so helpful you're doing that, and so like, hey. You're helping me. You're relatable.
Khurram Naik:You're the person I'm drawn to. So, like, that to me is my goal. And it sounds like you and I are both on it sounds like we're both on that same
Sunny Kim:Yeah. I think I just I I would love to hear your example post that you can think of that does both of that in one post. Because my approach has been if it's, like, educational content, then it's educational content, especially lawyers. So but like you said, it's really helpful when they break it down in a way that's actually coherent and you're able to understand it instead of just saying, I wrote this post or, like, this article about this and then just linking it. Like, the the educational post should try to, like, summarize what the article's about and actually kind of it's not about you.
Sunny Kim:It's more about the reader and your future clients and why they should even read it in the first place. But that's, like, a separate bucket in my mind from the more relatable post. And with mine, there's always there is, like, a transformation, but there's always some sort of underlying takeaway that is good. So as an example, when I wrote a post, like, last week about just me not having m and a experience and joining a firm where that would be my focus, within that post, I talked about a mentor at my prior firm who was really beneficial in teaching me m and a from, like, start to finish. And so under that is basically me acknowledging my mentor and how much of a help he was and also kind of promoting my old firm, Gunderson, about their senior lawyers having a big investment in their junior lawyers.
Sunny Kim:So there is, like, transformation in there. But underneath that, there's, like, a deeper message that I'm trying to convey. And I yeah. I don't want it to be, like, just a sob story of just hard times and it ends with that. I don't know that's an effective post.
Sunny Kim:There has to be some sort of overarching, like, growth or, like, gratitude or a reflection that's helpful for other people to understand.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. That's fair. And probably as a practical matter maybe maybe a better way to put this is, like, there's a spectrum that both of these have are on. Any given post is on a spectrum of these two qualities. And, yeah, some posts are definitely it's not even.
Khurram Naik:Right? It's not like 50% affordability, 50% insight. Mhmm. There's nothing else. Like, one post is gonna be heavier on analytics.
Khurram Naik:One post is gonna be heavier on emotions. And, yeah, I mean, to your point, like, I'm thinking of, like, there's periodically, I revisit, you know, the big law associate chart and, you know, something I you know, I was a life science major, and so, you know, I'm used to studying charts and and making conclusions based on data. Like, you look at data and say, what is the story this data is telling? And so, you know, looking at the associate chart, you know, the story that I see in that is that, you know, post, you know, kind of your your fourth to fifth year is really when the inflection point starts to take off for for your comp. And so but then it starts to plateau, you know, past, say, your sixth year.
Khurram Naik:So it's like this kind of this s curve. Well, what accounts for that? And so I I connect that to your value as a lateral associate, how early early you, frankly, don't have a lot of value because you don't know anything yet. And then you know something, you know enough between the third and sixth years, maybe more third and fifth years. And then from then on, you're kind of locked into your firm because you're too senior for another firm to to bring you in because you don't have enough runway typically, especially for litigators.
Khurram Naik:And so so that chart, like, that's a pretty anal that's a very analytical approach to that topic. And so what I'm trying to do as far as maybe vulnerable is is the wrong word to use, and maybe emotional is a better word to use. And so maybe maybe helpful equals emotional plus insight. Because I'm not talking about some personal experience I have there. It's not a vulnerability that I'm talking about there, but the emotional aspect I'm saying is is I'm just I'm helping people understand what that means for them, and how they're valued, and how to think about themselves, and then create some some awareness of, hey.
Khurram Naik:Here's some something you have to be aware of that this this chart is analytically, objectively telling you this data that you can make this strong inference from, that I'm arming you with a tool to empower yourself to take control of your career. So you can make decisions about whether or not to lateral and the consequences of not doing that. So it's empowering to people to share this Oh, okay.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. No. I I see that. I definitely see that. It it sounds like that would be educational plus relatable content.
Khurram Naik:Maybe that's what it is. Okay. Yeah. Plus relatable content.
Sunny Kim:Because they're getting that analytic broken down by you, but you're also translating how that analytics really impact them and kind of factor into whether or not they want to lateral or not. So there is more it's not just educational. There's some sort of relatable component where you're relating it back to how it impacts them. So that's just how I'm translating in my mind. But, yeah, I I think that's a I think that's a really good example.
Sunny Kim:And I was actually yeah. I was thinking of another it wasn't my post, but I saw I think that's a good structure because I saw someone else do that with a case that she had or, like, she basically got a major approval that's really hard to get for her immigration law firm, but she also talked about the vulnerable part, which is that this was, like, a really big struggle because they weren't able to get it in the beginning. And then she kind of walked through the different things and the approaches that she took to eventually get it. So it educated other people about how they could also get the same approval by taking those steps. But then there was a transformation because she got from point x to y.
Sunny Kim:And it's not saying that she, like, sucked or anything. It was actually, like, very relatable and, like, in a way, like, yeah, transformational because, like, everyone has to start from somewhere. Right? And, like, when I talk about transformation, it's not saying, like, talk about a time when you, like, really sucked and made a bunch of mistakes and, like, you failed a client. It's more like something that everyone can relate to where you're junior or, like, you're a very you're doing things for the first time, and that's just relatable for everyone.
Sunny Kim:Everyone's been in that vulnerable point. And it's like, okay. Like, what did you do to get and evolve from that point to get to where you are now? Like, I think those are the ones that work well. Especially, like, I feel like people get promoted or they get, like, recognized on certain lists.
Sunny Kim:That the transformation angle works really well when you share those posts because it makes you not just seem like you're bragging about the award. It's also like, hey. Like, I got this award, but it took, like, these steps or it took this mentor or my colleagues to help me really get there. And that's a much more relatable sort of promotional post compared to someone who's just saying, hey. I've been I'm honored to announce.
Sunny Kim:I've been you know? So yeah.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. And with my podcast, what I strive to do is carve out the vanilla middle of what you just kinda what you're just talking about where you know, what I don't do in my interviews is say, hey, hey. Can you tell me about the importance of hard work, mentorship, and network? Know, just like, know, like, we've all there's all kinds of mainstream legal publications that will have you can pull up any one of their interviews, and like, the the headline is something about that. Right?
Khurram Naik:And so what I try to do what I do in these episodes is I say, from the outset, when I'm when I'm talking to the people I interview, say, hey. We're carving that out. That is something that we're not doing here. What you're gonna do is the two extremes on the other end, which is tell me about the very real challenges you have faced and faced today. Mhmm.
Khurram Naik:And then also talk about so that's what's gonna help us wrap our head around the other part, which is what makes you really good? You know, what is the strategy, the skill that you've applied? You can tell me about the luck. Sure. I'm sure there's some luck.
Khurram Naik:I'm sure there's a team involved. I wanna hear about you. You did something exceptional. What was that? Because no one's gonna be able to really learn from what you've done if they don't really understand what you've done that's exceptional, but they're not gonna relate to it.
Khurram Naik:You're not gonna be like a relatable person, unless there's something vulnerable about you that they can relate to, and just like if you just sound like a machine, no, just, I crush things. I work a hundred hours a week. I write the best briefs. Then, okay, you're just some insane robot that I just can't relate to at all. It's completely irrelevant to me that you are successful in that way.
Khurram Naik:So, I work really hard to help people. It's hard for people, because people are not used to talking about either of things. They're not used to talking about things that I'm not good at, and people are not good at talking to things that they're really good at. But I think that's where the really good stuff is happening.
Sunny Kim:Mhmm. Mhmm. Oh, so you take this moment to get that sort of challenge plus why you're good at something from your guests?
Khurram Naik:Yes. And those two things aren't like this isn't like a LinkedIn post where those two things are happening in in one, you know, story or whatever, but those are two those are the two aspects of each of these lawyers I'm looking to draw on in order to to to learn from them. Because what I'm gonna carve out in the middle is the vanilla boring stuff of I'm so honored and I'm so humbled and and that kind
Sunny Kim:of stuff.
Khurram Naik:Those kinds of part of their stories, the canned part of their stories is is what I'm carving out from there.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. Oh, sorry. I I wasn't sure if you're asking a question or if that's
Khurram Naik:just I was just making observation.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. No. Yeah. I I it's funny because someone, like, someone mentioned for every lawyer post that starts with I'm humbled to announce or I'm honored to announce or I'm thrilled to announce, there should be a tariff on those posts.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. There should
Sunny Kim:be It's so overdone, and it's so generic, and it's just not I don't know. It's it's easy to do, but I feel like it's just so canned and doesn't yeah. It's just not really memorable. And I also think it kind of turns people off a little bit because it's just so overdone, and we've seen it so much. But I think there are really good ways to be more creative about it, and I actually do see more of it in the feed compared to prior years.
Sunny Kim:I don't know if you feel the same way, but I think there's been more genuine storytelling from lawyers as more and more people actually come onto the platform, which I think is great because there's more examples for people to draw from rather than the very typical posts that we've all seen.
Khurram Naik:I wanna get to some you know, you've got some great brass tacks that we can get into for some actual tips for lawyers. So I wanna get into that. But I think my observation that I'm curious to get your reaction on is I think that many lawyers think we're talking about that vanilla middle just now. That's what's safe, and so that's why they put that out. Was like, well, I'll just put out what everybody else is putting out.
Khurram Naik:But Yeah. By definition, that will not stand out. Right. The only reason to make a post on LinkedIn is to stand out. If you're trying to say the same thing as everybody else, you might as well not post it.
Khurram Naik:It literally adds no value to say what everyone else is saying. You wouldn't do that in a brief. Right? Would you say something that the judge has already heard? No.
Khurram Naik:If you're having a reply brief, you better say something you didn't say in your opening brief. Same thing on LinkedIn. Same principle. If you're gonna say something, say something different. It doesn't mean to say something crazy and just, you know, what like, you know, grouch your Mars glasses and just be a goofball or whatever.
Khurram Naik:But, like, you have to say something different. Yeah.
Sunny Kim:And different doesn't mean unsafe. Right? Different can just be adding one more layer that everyone else is not adding. Like, in that post where you're saying I'm honored to announce, instead of just saying that, just saying just adding people who you want to thank, who helped you get that award or promotion or whatever. It does it's not unsafe to add it.
Sunny Kim:I think it's actually better and enhances your post because if I mean, we've both been lawyers. Imagine if we were tagged in a post like that, like, how good that would make us feel for someone to win something big and, like, acknowledge us as part of that achievement. Like Sure. That's actually better for me and for you. So, yeah, I I definitely hear you that people are more inclined to stay safe.
Sunny Kim:But like you said, the way to stand out because it's really at the end of the day, it's a visibility game, and you want to get your name out there. And the the reason why these social media platforms are effective is because you're doing it at scale as opposed to meeting each person one by one. So, yeah, to do it effectively, you have to kind of lean into adding something that not everyone else is doing but still keeping it professional.
Khurram Naik:Agreed. So let's get into some of that about how to present yourself. So you've got some ideas on profile optimization, your headline, your about me section. Tell me about how lawyers should think about presenting themselves in that way.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. One really simple tip that I think any lawyer can use is to optimize the headline. And I know that there are so many lawyers who just use attorney or associate at Blank Law Firm, but even just adding your practice area goes such a long way. I wanna hear your perspective on this as well to see if you agree with this. But when you search for lawyers, if someone just has associate at firm name, like, you're not able to see if they qualify for the position that you're trying to look for.
Sunny Kim:Right? Like, if you're looking for a tax associate, it's much harder for you to find them if they don't have that in their profile. Is that right?
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I think well, this is really interesting because I I think any number of lawyers might think that there is value in being mysterious, and any number of firms model that. Right? So there's like I think particularly, like, the white shoe firms are much like, if you pull up a lawyer's profile on one of these white shoe firms' pages, it'll it'll be extremely bare bones and just say, this is a corporate associate. And I don't know the reasons for that, but an easy cynical take would be that that makes it difficult for that talent to find its way to other firms, because then I can't identify what this talent can do if I'm a recruiter.
Khurram Naik:And so, yeah, I I think no one is doing themselves any favors by being mysterious. I think it's helpful to share, here's what I do, here's what I'm good at, along the lines of we were just talking about. And you don't have to have a narrative about it. I know that any number lawyers are are concerned about whether sharing something on LinkedIn is is attorney advertising in in contravention of of rules of professional conduct. But just, you know, if even it's just, hey.
Khurram Naik:I'm a, you know, private equity funds I'm a regulatory lawyer, whatever it is, I'm a patent litigator, you know, just having a short description of your subject matter just seems to be pure upside and and no downside.
Sunny Kim:Definitely. Because, I mean yeah. That's interesting. I I've I have noticed that about certain firms keeping their associates mysterious, but you wanna be in control over your own career. Right?
Sunny Kim:And if there is a really good opportunity, you wanna make it easier for people with those opportunities to find you. So I think updating your headline to show your practice area. And I also wanna add that for associates, instead of just saying associate, I would just advise that they put attorney because I think that establishes more credibility. And especially if you're trying to build out thought leadership and speak from a point of, like, a trusted adviser, an expert expert adviser, I think that title change alone helps you establish that. And we've all kind of been in situations where we look up the other lawyer that we're gonna speak to before a call.
Sunny Kim:Right? And there's definitely like, if if you actually just say attorney, people have to scroll through, and they could probably figure it out based on when you graduated from law school. But that's just a lot of work. And you can kind of have a little bit more confidence going into negotiations or, like, other matters if you people don't really know that you're a first or second year or third year. So those are the two tips that I recommend for headlines.
Khurram Naik:I couldn't agree more of that. I think the latter is gonna be difficult for a lot of associate's law firms because the associate title is it it comes with a partnership track that you're on. So there's attorneys at firms that are off if attorney is your official job title, that 99 times out of 100 means that you're not partnership track. And so associates correctly understand the cachet in being an associate, but when I practiced law, I did exactly what you did. I put attorney on there.
Khurram Naik:I knew that, yes, I am aware that the cachet is with associate, when it comes to in big law, but the purpose of LinkedIn isn't for me to, I'm not trying to win points in the big law sphere. I'm already in there, so I already have those points. This is an option for me to get points with people who aren't in the legal sphere. They don't see me as, Are you an associate partner? They just see me as an attorney, and they'll come to me then.
Khurram Naik:And so, completely agree with you. And I can't say, if I was a more skilled big law associate, I'd still be there. There's a reason why I'm no longer in big law, because that was not the practice of law in a big law format in the time that I was at a firm. Like, that was not my forte. But I do think attorney calling myself attorney Arlington was something small within my control to take ownership of my career, and that plant the seed for where I am today, where, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, and I own my work product.
Khurram Naik:So I think that's and that's the direction you're heading on in your career, and I assume that is because that's why you're you're taking ownership of sharing things on LinkedIn, then, yeah, I I think you you definitely should think about calling yourself attorney and not just associate.
Sunny Kim:Yeah. I I agree with you on that. And along the same lines, I think on LinkedIn, people are not really spending a lot of time on really understanding who you are, so you wanna make it super easy for them to get that information very quickly. And one of the best ways to do that is to add an about section. It's just the first section that will appear if they scroll a little bit down, and it will only show the first four lines.
Sunny Kim:So in those first four lines, you wanna make sure it's very clear what kind of practice area you're in, like, what are the types of clients you serve, your years of experience, like major matters that you've handled, as well as any awards or publications that you've been in because all of those things are trying to establish credibility and build some level of trust from the get go. So people who optimize their profile to just maximize those first four lines, I think, really get those opportunities much faster than people who spend or that kinda waste that space or don't even have that at all. So that's another tip I recommend in your profile.
Khurram Naik:Great. So I think that's helpful. That's Yeah. And just both of these, I mean, this I mean, how long could this possibly take someone to rework? I mean, maybe it takes a little time to think about it, but there seems to be two things you can get done in under twenty minutes.
Sunny Kim:Oh, yeah. For sure. And, like, you can just yeah. I think you can just take chat ChatGPT or any other Gen AI tool you use to paste in your bio and have it generate something for you for both of those sessions. So, yeah, I definitely think it could be done in fifteen, twenty minutes.
Sunny Kim:And I also think you bring up a great point earlier about taking ownership over your career because I think a lot of us kind of feel safe in having the credentials and being at a big law firm. And we believe, I think, early on because no one else tells us otherwise that that alone is enough. But I think the world is very competitive, and the higher you go up in your career, it becomes even more competitive. So you really need to kind of fend for yourself and watch out for your best interest as an attorney and really take ownership over your career. And building a presence on a social media platform and really just putting your name out there makes it so much easier for you to gain that control of your career, whichever direction you decide to take it.
Sunny Kim:So I think it like you said, it's important to be intentional about how you want yourself to be perceived and how that perception is going to help you get to the opportunities that you're aiming for.
Khurram Naik:Mhmm. And so aside from seeking opportunities, what are other reasons why people should consider writing on LinkedIn? Like, what is it that people what are the reasons why people would even wanna make posts on LinkedIn to begin with?
Sunny Kim:The main reason is law is a people business. And at the end of the day, of course, they're gonna contact law firms and, like, look at, you know, their names, but they're gonna have to work with certain lawyers at those law firms. And you want your name to be the name that pops up because you have done the hard work of investing time into building a presence where people already know about you and trust you. And at the end of the day, yeah, you can't just depend on your firm or company. You wanna make sure your name is out there to get those clients, those firm leaders to sort of recognize you first.
Sunny Kim:And that is why I think a lot of people, not just lawyers, are building their presence on LinkedIn. Before, I think, like, Blackstone, its name would just stand on its own, but now you see John Gray, who's basically, like, gonna be the next CEO. He's investing time into building his own personal brand. We see, like, running videos of him because he wants to also be more relatable and build trust with people like his institutional clients. And Mark Zuckerberg, same thing.
Sunny Kim:I think before, he was kind of like I think Meta or Facebook had a bigger presence, but I think he's seeing that there's other tech leaders who they are becoming the face and not the company. So everyone is sort of leaning into their personal brand outside of the law, and I think law is starting to sort of gain traction and follow that trend. But the reason is that people just know that personal brands are where the world is going. And so we all, I think, need to lean into that.
Khurram Naik:I think part of what you're talking about I know in text circles, there's a lot of distrust of traditional media outlets. And so there's this concept in text circles of going straight to your audience, you know, just getting direct access. And, of course, you're using things like social media platforms to do that, but you're not using traditional news outlets for that. So I think that's also driving a lot about where they can shape the narrative directly. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:And so I I think the same principle follows that that will follow that that law may be slow to it, but then you have an opportunity. This is an amazing opportunity to be early to it. And I think something that's important to underscore as well is, like, by definition, if there is an opportunity, that means you're early. And by definition, something early means there's not gonna be a bunch of other people saying, here's how to do this. So if this looks weird to you, if this if this is uncomfortable for you, when I don't see other people doing it, that's what makes this an opportunity.
Khurram Naik:If everyone was doing it, there would be no opportunity.
Sunny Kim:That's exactly right. Did you read that article by Alex Su where he talked about the, like, the benefits that he got out of establishing a presence on social media?
Khurram Naik:I'd be surprised if I didn't, but I don't recall this one.
Sunny Kim:Oh, yeah. But he actually mentioned exactly what you mentioned, which is you are able to shape your own narrative because you may not always agree with what your firm is doing or what your company is doing, but you wanna put your own version of how you perceive yourself and how you want to be perceived out there because that just gives you so much more control over how you, like, are as a person as opposed to just having a company or firm doing that for you. So I think, yeah, that's that's one of the main reasons why it's so important to build and lean into a personal brand. You you put it a lot better than me, but, yeah, I just wanted to talk about that again.
Khurram Naik:So we're on the same page. And, look, I I I know we're running into we we've got a stop here coming up here. I know we've got a few minutes. Is yeah. I think the most likely answer is that you'll have just come back, and and we'll have to talk for for hours more about all the the ideas that we have that you have about about sharing ideas.
Khurram Naik:Are there one or two now that we've done I think it was helpful to establish the reasons why someone even posts on here to begin with. Are there a few tips, one or a few tips, however many you want, for how people should think about what they'll what they'll write?
Sunny Kim:Yes. I think the easiest way to start is to start with educational content because I think there is some courage that people wanna work up before they start sharing more relatable posts. So the first step, I think, that's most low pressure for people is to repurpose things that they've written, maybe client alerts, articles, and post about that on LinkedIn, but add something to it where you summarize what it's about, who's the audience, who should care about it. So once you get that first post out, it's gonna feel much more comfortable for you to start exploring more relatable posts that really deepen the trust. And so after that, if you still want to work up more courage to post, I recommend going to other major voices in the legal industry and commenting on their posts because that is one mini post that I think of where you are still sharing your perspective and putting your visibility out there.
Sunny Kim:And especially on big accounts like yours, for example, people really read those comments. And you can even see that now LinkedIn shows the number of times people view comments, and it could be very significant. So that is one other way where you can chime in with your own experience or thoughts that really add value instead of just saying, great insight or, you know, congrats or whatever. And then after that, you can start off by writing a more relatable post like we talked about, maybe something about your award or a reflection about your career journey and why you joined your firm or your practice area. Those are things that are not really risky.
Sunny Kim:And as long as you preview to the people who are tagged in the post that, hey. I might mention this to, like, thank you for this thing you did for me. Like, I've done that myself with all the partners that I've written about. They love it. So and then so I would do that.
Sunny Kim:And then all of these posts that you have written about the firm or that are adjacently related to the firm that puts the firm in a great light, I think you should track the metrics of those posts and the impressions, which is basically views that you've gotten on those posts, and then bring it up in a performance review or talk about it when you interview with another firm that you wanna lateral with that I did all these things that really promoted my firm, and it got, like, it got in front of 20,000 people. Like, that's a value add that I think shows that you have, like, a business development mindset in terms of not only promoting yourself, but also getting your firm's name out there. So I think those are some of the tips that you can just immediately use.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I I love those are those are perfect. I I can resonate so much with that because I remember when I was associates, like, okay. What's safe? What's safe to post on?
Khurram Naik:Remember we had a blog on tracking the biosimilars market, litigation market, or biosummers litigation. Yeah, And so we would have little biographies of the different people who contributed to the blog. And so we did add some personal questions in there just to add some flavor and make it more fun in that way. And so there's a post about, you know, so when it was my turn, I talked about, hey, you know, here's this mango smoothie they've been making, whatever. So then I I decided to say, hey.
Khurram Naik:When I got like to him, hey. Like, here's this mango smoothie they're making, here's, like, a little bit about me from this from firm blog. And so that was me doing this incremental stretch that felt safe. Like, okay, it's a little uncomfortable for me to talk about a smoothie I made. I know it's not really professional.
Khurram Naik:It's not something that relates to my work as a patent litigator, but a lawyer I worked with messaged me and said, Oh, yeah. I saw your mango smoothie thing. That was great. So I was like, Ah, okay. So people It's okay to be relatable, and just share yourself, so it was just you know, the things you're talking about, about repurposing existing content from your firm, or things you've done, or talked to mentors.
Khurram Naik:I love that because it's just small steps that are safe to just practice sharing ideas. It's also when you talk about repurposing, it's not right from some scratch because, like, yeah, if you're busy as hell as as a as an associate or other lawyers, you don't have time to sit down. You have the luxury of sitting down and and work on some new posts. So just make it easier for yourself, already have something on the paper that you can work with and just, you know, digest. And like you say, like, Chat Suggestion is a tool for getting things out the door.
Khurram Naik:Like, if I was new to this, I wouldn't be shy at all about using Chat Suggestion to generate the substance of a of a post because, like, that just gets me in the game. It just gets the ball rolling, then plenty of room from there to to add your your mark and stamp on it, but just it gets the ball rolling, gets you the identity of the kind of person who makes these posts.
Sunny Kim:Oh, yeah. 100%. And because you wrote the article, even if you use ChatGPT to think of a good hook and write it, like, you can verify that it wrote the correct information because you wrote the article and you know about it. So you can totally leverage ChatGPT. I would just highlight that when you write posts, it's very important, and you know this really well too because I see your hooks are really great.
Sunny Kim:It's important to make sure the first three lines are what grab people's attention. So you don't wanna use the first three lines to say, I wrote this article about this topic and, like, just use all this legalese that's hard for people to understand. A very simple framework is to show that you did the hard work. So let's say it's, like, about digital asset digital asset reporting, and the IRS released a 350 page report about it. How I would do it is saying IRS released a 350 page final regs on digital asset reporting.
Sunny Kim:Three takeaways that crypto companies should know. Because that shows that you did the hard work of reading the regulation or just, like, yeah, reading the full thing, and you're just breaking down the most important points that people need to know. And that could apply for any agency, regulatory updates, cases. But people love when, like, you do the work for them, and then they're just getting the takeaways. So that's a really simple framework that you can use.
Khurram Naik:I love that. And what I would add to that, again, that's very safe to do that. And what you could do that was, if you wanna stretch a little bit, is to say challenge yourself a little bit, should say, is say, I saved you the five hours of reading this, and here's the three points. So, like, to really break out, like, oh my god. That would've been five hours of my life.
Khurram Naik:And, like, you spent that five hours. Now you're gonna share with me, like, I'm in. This is true.
Sunny Kim:Well, people love that. And people love even, like, when you go to conferences. Like, I went to a two day conference talking about this topic. The most important takeaways from panelists and, like, even tag the panelists, they love that. It gets your name in front of them.
Sunny Kim:This is really low risk. And if anything, I think firms really like that because it puts your work and, like, your association with the firm on other people's radar.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. You know, I think we can go on for a really long time.
Sunny Kim:Think We can.
Khurram Naik:We have so many good ideas here. So, reluctantly, I think we should wrap up now. But this is, Sunny, this is amazing. I I love the energy you bring to this. I came to I I I saw you attended your free session recently where you were sharing these ideas.
Khurram Naik:Your presentation was phenomenal. Your energy was super high. People throwing you questions every direction, and just like, no matter what the question, you're excited to take it on. So there's you you have such a passion for this, and so I think you're already making a huge impact from the people that I know, because I've I've mentioned to several friends of mine, and they said, yeah. I just I love Sunny's work.
Khurram Naik:So I'm so happy to have you on here, and then I'm hoping that you'll say yes to another one of these.
Sunny Kim:Oh, yeah. I'd love to. Let's let's do a full one next time. I I will make sure I have a lot of tips to share because there definitely are more. So I would love to come on again.
Sunny Kim:I wanna thank you again for inviting me. This was a lot of fun. It just kinda flew by, so so we'll have to do another one. But thanks again for having me.