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How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
SHAY: Happy How to Humanist Day. It's Shay Leonia, and it's a wonderful day to listen to your favorite new podcast. I hope that's the case. Please say it is.
Anyway, I know that the person who's about to be listening to this is gonna crawl under their bed or fire me, one of the two. But I just wanted to say, hey, Court. Tap tap.
If you're listening to this, it was your birthday this past weekend. Yes, you — my supervisor at the American Humanist Association. Everyone, if you're listening, my supervisor Court started literally, I want to say, six weeks before I came on the job at the American Humanist Association.
When I came on board, one of Court's first job assignments in their role as Director of Communications was to hire a Communications Manager. So I was their first hire. And I've had such a long string of horrible, traumatically horrible bosses — I'm telling you, like, I've been in therapy over how horrible my bosses have been. I'm talking litigious stuff. It's been bad.
And here comes Court. And while Court had hired me and everything seemed awesome, of course in the back of my mind I'm thinking, you know, soak it up and ride the wheels till they fall off, because at some point the other shoe's gonna drop and you're gonna be at each other's throats and it's gonna suck, yada yada.
But when I tell you, we're over a year in, and I gotta tell you, Court is freaking awesome. I would not be where I'm at now running this podcast, being able to have my creative juices flowing at this job, being taken seriously, having my ideas heard, just being seen and appreciated and valued in so many different ways, having my hat thrown in the ring. Court has just been such an incredible value and truly just somebody who has had my back. And like I said, their birthday was this past weekend, so happy birthday, Court. I hope you're enjoying some much, much deserved time off. Nobody bother them.
And when they get back, don't fire me, please.
Okay, so for this week, the review is not actually a review as much as they swept into my inbox at podcast@americanhumanist.org, which you can do — but I would also love it if you would leave a review. This was from Lisa Rashad. Lisa, thank you so much. Lisa said, "Good God, do I love your podcast. I look forward to every Monday with new releases." Thank you so much, Lisa. That means the world to me.
Today's episode, Lisa — I hope that you enjoy this just as much, if not more, than any other episode you've heard thus far, because they're just gonna keep getting better and better.
We are joined today by Dr. Monica Johnson, who is a licensed clinical psychologist and the founder of Kind Mind Psychology, a virtual group therapy practice based in New York. Dr. Johnson specializes in treating complex issues like trauma, personality disorders, anxiety, and depression, with a particular focus on providing affirming care for marginalized groups, including BIPOC, LGBTQ+, and those with alternative lifestyles.
Dr. Monica Johnson came up in our social media feed talking about ADHD, and she was talking about science-first, evidence-based stuff, and I was like, oh yeah, gotta talk to her. And so this podcast episode was my first time meeting her, and now I don't think I've ever felt so compelled to be immediate best friends with somebody. So I hope you enjoy this episode because I definitely did.
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SHAY: Are you comfortable with me asking — do you identify as a humanist? Like I have no idea about what your background is with how you identify religiously or spirituality-wise.
DR. JOHNSON: I don't mind talking about it. Broadly, I would say I'm a generally open-minded and spiritual person, but I don't follow any strict religion or spiritual practice or anything like that.
SHAY: Got it. Mm-hmm. Is that generally how your family is as well, or?
DR. JOHNSON: I was raised in the Deep South, so I — oh. I'm a Black person from the Deep South. There's not many of us that have not been raised in some sort of — so I was raised Southern Baptist, I guess, is the short answer to that.
SHAY: Wow.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.
SHAY: When did you start questioning that?
DR. JOHNSON: I don't know if I'd say my process was — I mean, not to say that I don't question it, but I don't think I ever had a thought that I couldn't, so like —
SHAY: Okay.
DR. JOHNSON: I don't know that my experience of it was like — yeah.
SHAY: So you always felt like it was a safe space to ask these questions and everything like that?
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah.
SHAY: That's amazing, because that's not typically everyone's experience, especially growing up in a church environment where everybody is going to church and it's very committed to that space.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I guess I — now I'm realizing, like —
SHAY: Yeah.
DR. JOHNSON: I mean, I think a lot of that has to do with how does your family system or different people choose to interact with those sorts of elements and engage in those sorts of conversations. Is it a, we're all learning how to be better people through the lens of this religion type of energy, or is this like a dogma that we want to beat people's heads with kind of thing?
SHAY: Right. Now, are there other clinicians in your family or are you the first one?
DR. JOHNSON: I'm the only one. Yeah, the only one. I'm the only person in my family to go to college or do any of those sorts of things.
SHAY: Oh, that's incredible. Does that feel liberating in a way, or does that feel like kind of a weight? How does that feel for you?
DR. JOHNSON: You know, I think most things in life end up being kind of nuanced. I think that if you're incredibly different from other people in your family system, there can be pros to that, or like things that feel cool or good, or, I'm a pioneer. And then there's things of like, but I'm also really different from my family system.
So yeah, I think that stuff is incredibly nuanced. And I think especially when you talk to people who come from a variety of different backgrounds, the answer is usually complicated. I personally, you know, I'm a Black queer person who grew up in the Deep South and grew up in extreme poverty, so the further away I get from poverty, the further away I get from my home base. I think most things have a dialectic that you have to hold where multiple things are true at the same time.
SHAY: Okay, so before — so we were able to survey the audience to get some questions for you, because I just want everyone to understand the array. I literally had to do so much research just to find out and narrow down what we were gonna discuss today. We did hone in on one particular topic for today, but I already have on my wishlist to bring you back because I had a topic I wanted to talk to you about that was overruled. Womp womp.
But what was my point? My point was — yeah, so you have just overwhelming expertise in your field in so many different areas, all of them intersectional. I wanted to ask you, since this is your first time meeting me — is there anything that you would like to know before we dive into this conversation any further about where we're at with humanism?
DR. JOHNSON: Sure. Tell me about humanism.
SHAY: Okay. So humanism — whether or not it's a religion, we will have that discussion on a later podcast episode because there's a lot to be said around that. But it is just the belief that we don't adhere to what a book or a hierarchy tells us to do in terms of being a good person. We believe in the here and now. We believe that we have each other to rely on, and that we don't have to look to some higher force to tell us what's right and wrong, that we only have this life to rely on, being the best version of ourselves that we can be, and to leave it better than we found it for future generations.
DR. JOHNSON: I mean, that seems to be the mindset. I know a lot of people who identify as atheist, and everything you're saying feels very much like the atheists that I know — that's what they say.
SHAY: So there's a lot of intersectionality there too. Like my executive director, Fish Stark, he identifies as an atheist humanist. And there are a lot of people that identify as atheist humanists. Whereas atheism presents what you don't believe in, humanism will provide you with what you believe in.
So what's funny about you asking me what humanism is is that the whole premise of this podcast is that I'm new to humanism. I only discovered humanism last year, through this job that I have. And so for people listening to this episode, they have literally from you asking me this question just heard me define humanism for the first time. People, tell me how I did.
DR. JOHNSON: I think that was a good overview, so my mindset is primed to learn more. That's one of the things I enjoy — learning about different people and places and things. So this is great for me.
SHAY: Wonderful. One of the things I really loved learning about humanism is that we don't do a lot of policing. So it's just like if it comes down to the betterment of people, we're all about it.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah.
SHAY: So okay, anything else you wanna know before we move forward?
DR. JOHNSON: No, it sounds like there's been a poll, and I wanna make sure that —
SHAY: Yeah. So okay. The conversation that we're gonna be having today is about your expertise in race-based stress. And first of all, thank you for willingly marking yourself on the schedule to step into an ignorant white conversation about people of color.
DR. JOHNSON: I mean, I've done that a lot in my life, so it's a normal experience for me. Again, I'll remind you — I grew up in the Deep South.
SHAY: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Oh gosh. I don't know if we should do a traffic light system. If we should like, yellow light me if I start to go places where we shouldn't go.
Okay, so the first question — oh, I'm in the wrong section. Okay. First question. Oh, this one — you actually do a lot of excellent work around ADHD, and so this first question says: How do ADHD symptoms show up differently when someone is also navigating racial stress, stereotype threat, or the pressure to constantly self-monitor in predominantly white spaces?
DR. JOHNSON: Sure. I mean, I think when it comes to BIPOC individuals and also women, one of the biggest things you see is late or misdiagnosis, just because oftentimes people with ADHD naturally will have a desire to mask. But then you also have masking and code switching and things like that as tools that we use for other aspects of our lives.
And so, you know, for example, if I have a Black female who finally gets a diagnosis at like 35 or whatever — when you're really talking to people, the ADHD symptoms, because you don't know what they are, they kind of get lumped in with everything else. So you just kind of assume this is who I am. And you kind of say, okay, well I have to work around me and work around the systems at play and X, Y, and Z. And so you just kind of mask all the time, and you think that's normal and appropriate and it kind of should be this way, because you don't know any different.
I think that's one of the biggest powers of having an accurate diagnosis in situations like this — that you understand that this is separate from me. So even when you talk about stereotype threat and things like that, one of the things that guards us against some of the impact of that is actually having pride in our identities and understanding that me being Black or me being queer is not the problem. It is the response that systems or society has towards these elements that is the problem.
Now, it doesn't change the fact that it feels bad. But it lands in a different way in terms of this is a systemic problem that I'm dealing with versus I am fundamentally flawed as a human being walking around on the planet. Both of those are painful, but one of them can actually lead to a lot more suffering than the other one.
SHAY: I obviously am not a Black woman experiencing this, so I'm never going to be able to understand that level of it. But I recently was trying to seek an ADHD diagnosis, whether or not I have it, and instead was diagnosed with PTSD, and was told that because I had the PTSD they weren't going to be able to find out if I have ADHD anyway —
DR. JOHNSON: Hmm.
SHAY: Because the symptoms were so overlapping.
DR. JOHNSON: I mean, there is a lot of overlap, but sometimes you have to do more assessment. I mean, I think a lot of people want the lowest level of assessment — like the lowest level is, I see my primary therapist, I see a psychiatrist, and I get a diagnosis. But sometimes people do have a lot of comorbidity, so you do have to do a full scale evaluation, which could involve interviews, cognitive testing, behavioral batteries, getting a lot of history, all of those things, because you need that in order to kind of tease apart the symptoms. But generally speaking, you can come in and we can have an official diagnosis of anxiety, we can suspect there's ADHD, and we can set up a treatment plan that will hopefully target both of those things.
My whole career has been focused on historically marginalized populations and population-based care. So I'm always trying to maximize the skill set that I have and in many ways be like a Swiss Army knife, so that for most people they can come see me or someone at my practice and know that we can help with most things. And that comes from me focusing on historically marginalized people because generally they have less access.
So if you're living in rural middle America, you're not gonna have 10,000 psychologists and psychiatrists that you can just open up on Psychology Today or Zocdoc. You might have one or two for that entire area. So the providers that are located in those areas have to be well-versed in a lot of different things, and that's how I was trained.
SHAY: So okay, so then where are the white people that are considering themselves to be allies going wrong in creating the safe space for people that are desiring to go through this process of being like, yeah, no, society is trying to make me have to be smaller, when the truth is that I shouldn't have to be?
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[SHAY interjects: Here we go. I'm doing the white person stutter. If you're white, you too know that stutter where you're talking to a Black person and you're trying to not say anything that's gonna offend them. And here I am talking to Dr. Monica Johnson, who has been super cool so far, and I don't wanna ruin everything and send it right off the rails with my upcoming question.
But I am just trying to figure out the right way to ask it. And she's meeting me for the very first time. She doesn't know all of the spices that I have in my cabinet. She doesn't know I would never put raisins in a potato salad. She doesn't know that I know T-bone steak, cheese eggs, and Welch's grape. But none of that's gonna come to save me in this moment. Fortunately, she has all of the background and expertise to dig through the muck with me and come through and find the question that I wanted to ask. Ugh.]
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DR. JOHNSON: So are you saying like providers? Like —
SHAY: Not necessarily providers. I guess, like — so okay, I'll give you a recent example. We just wrapped up the American Empathy Project, and what we did was we gave away $100,000 to 100 different groups nationally that were humanist groups doing mutual aid for their communities. We had a bunch of different volunteers show up and do these different actions, between helping communities that were impacted by ICE to senior joy drives. It was just incredible.
And this is not from a real-life example, I'm just saying hypothetically — if there were somebody who wanted to show up to one of these activities, but they identify as a Black queer woman who wanted to show up to the space, but maybe they're feeling like, oh no, I'm just exhausted. I don't wanna have to show up to this space and feel like I'm gonna have to put on all these masks in front of these people that I don't know, that are probably gonna be a predominantly white space — which a lot of our organization right now is very white-facing.
What can, what should these allies be doing to create the space that would be — here's what I'm gonna tell you before we proceed with you answering this question. I am very aware of the high risk of tightrope that this could turn into you just giving me a free DEI session. I want to just name that out there, and I don't want that to happen, so feel free to let me know if this is encroaching on that.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I mean, I think there are a lot of things that go into circumstances like this. I think one — it's okay for there to be ally spaces that aren't mixed group, I will say. I think about different movements that we've had throughout, let's just limit it to American society. Every abolitionist was not necessarily routinely meeting with enslaved people to talk about that, but they very much had value systems that were aligned and were doing their part to move certain things forward. And so I think that's one answer here — it's okay as long as the work is doing the job that it's supposed to be doing.
I think sometimes as an ally of a particular group, we kind of want the stamp of approval.
SHAY: Ah.
DR. JOHNSON: You know? Like —
SHAY: The invite to the barbecue, yes.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah, and it's like, then you get the question of why are you doing the work? Because what if you never get the invite to the cookout? Does that mean you would've never done the work?
SHAY: Oh.
DR. JOHNSON: You kind of have to think about it that way.
SHAY: The food is really good at the cookout, though. I mean —
DR. JOHNSON: It is. But if you are truly saying my goal is for people to have — again, based on your value system, fill it in — that means all people, and that means regardless of whether or not those people acknowledge you. And I think sometimes we forget that aspect of something. We all want a participation ribbon for being a good person, but good people oftentimes do not get that, and they're doing it anyway. So I say do it anyway, because otherwise you make it transactional. And I wouldn't want an ally that was transactional.
Now I'm thinking of DMX. It's like the Ruff Ryders' Anthem. Like, are you ride or die or not?
SHAY: Yes.
DR. JOHNSON: Because when it comes to human rights, it's like we all kind of gotta be on that ride or die energy.
SHAY: Oh my gosh. Oh, I love DMX. Oh, why is he gone? Wow. We could just end the podcast here. That's, you just said everything that needed to be said. Wow. Wow.
Okay, wow, I'm really sitting with that. Yes, and I think there's a lot of wanting to check in of, like, if we're not getting that check-in and that seal of approval from the group that we're working on this for or towards — it's like, are we doing this the way that you want us to do it? Are we on the right path? Do we need to pivot? I think there's that check and balance that's also desired to make sure that we're not messing it all up.
DR. JOHNSON: Oh, yes, I definitely understand that. And I think, you know, obviously as you're developing these things, you can have community members that are a part of your board. There are different actions that you can take. Or you can really affiliate yourself with other organizations. You know, for the better part of a decade I was the lead psychologist at a homeless clinic, so I saw how these sorts of things worked. You had different organizations that work with the homeless population, and how do they all coordinate to really make sure that this population of people is covered?
I worked at a federally qualified health center, but we also worked very closely with volunteer ministries and religious organizations, because they do a lot of work in those areas and they capture people. They give meals to people on a weekly basis, just different sorts of services. And then there may be other government programs.
So I think it's really about being a part of the communities that you are serving and making sure that you have those face-to-face relationships. Speaking of being a humanist, I do think that touch really keeps you motivated for these things. We do a lot more online stuff now, where it's just I'm in front of a screen doing things, donating, sending an email kind of energy. And I think that keeps you kind of removed from the process. So I think the more you can really have your toes in the grass, the more that you will get a sense that we're making movement. Because with large scale issues like this, it's very rare that you get a milestone outcome that you're looking for.
I worked with the homeless population for that entire period of time. Did I cure homelessness? Did I solve it as a problem? No. But I know for a fact that there are dozens and dozens if not hundreds of people that I had a direct impact on in terms of that person's life being appreciably better. And what I tell my therapists and people that I train all the time is, each life matters. If you save one person, who knows what that person will go on to do? I think I emailed them one time and I said, you don't know who will be saved because of you or lost without you.
So if you can keep that as a general mindset, that every action you do is significant, even if it's only felt by one person, I think that's important and will keep a lot of us motivated as we continue to move forward. Because we have so many different big problems in the world, and my feeling is that I look every other day and I'm like, oh, like you're rolling back something that people spent decades on, that people paid their whole lives to have be a truth, and now it's not a truth anymore. So now we have to go back and get all these rights that my mother fought for in the '50s and the '60s, or that my grandfather fought for in the '20s and the '30s. So that's just where we're at.
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ANNOUNCER: If you are listening to this podcast, you probably care about science, bodily autonomy, and treating people with empathy. You probably believe you can live a good, meaningful life without religion. The good news is you're not alone.
How to Humanist is a program of the American Humanist Association, a nonprofit that defends the separation of church and state, protects freedom of belief, and advocates for policies grounded in reason and human dignity. We show up in the courtroom to protect the separation of church and state. We advocate in workplaces and schools to defend our freedom of belief. We work on Capitol Hill to shape the kind of country our kids inherit, and we build a community of people who share your values. But it only happens with your support.
If this podcast resonates with you, take the next step. Go to americanhumanist.org/join to learn more about our work and to become a member. Whether it's $5 or $50, you'll help fund the legal fights, the advocacy, and the community that makes a more humanist world possible. Join us at americanhumanist.org/join.
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SHAY: Let's get to this next question. You've talked about fiction, empathy, and theory of mind — the ability to imagine and understand another person's inner world. Why do you think reading fiction matters, especially in intellectual, political, or activist spaces?
DR. JOHNSON: Sure. I mean, when you're reading, inherently you're just less defended around things. There are a lot of people who will sit here and be like, I love Harry Potter, or I love Star Wars, or I love X-Men, and we all realize that these are metaphors for other things. Even the people who developed these characters said they're metaphors for other things. And I'm gonna be very clear with you — guess who also likes the X-Men? The KKK. You know what I mean?
The more that you are able to engage with media and content that is made for people that are similar to you or different, it puts you in the mindset of the protagonist in whatever story you're a part of. Because you can see the inner workings of their mind and understand their emotions, it starts to make things make sense to you in a way that it didn't before. This is also true when you meet people who are different than you. If you can tolerate the initial kind of resistance to the difference that's in front of you, you may get to a point where you're accepting or affirming.
This is something I tell people about all the time. You can't affirm something that you can't, at a minimum, tolerate. That's always the first step as you're kind of moving through, right? So I may read something, and at first I may go, oh, like, I hate this character. But you keep reading because you want to finish the book, and eventually you're like, they ended up being my favorite character. Or you understand what role they had to play in the overarching story. You see some part of yourself within that character. All of that stuff can start to build upon empathy in other people, especially if you're really open-minded.
I grew up in the library. So much of my life is around reading and writing. The first contest I ever won was a reading contest —
SHAY: Aw.
DR. JOHNSON: Taking little quizzes. I used to do Pizza Hut Book It. For anybody who's old enough to know Pizza Hut Book It, I got a lot of personal pan pizzas. I'm just gonna be very honest about that. But I also always took advanced English classes, AP English classes, and I grew up in a town of 706 people. So reading really let me know that there's an actual bigger, more complicated and nuanced world.
There are a lot of things that reading helps people with, and oftentimes — this isn't always true, so don't quote me on this, I'll have to look up the specific research — but a lot of times when I see people that are truly ignorant, oftentimes they're not readers. And I want to be clear, just because you read, that doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are also a lot of people who don't have good intentions for people or humanity who are well-read and are still making choices. So I'm not saying that reading automatically makes you a good person. I am saying that you have a deeper understanding of yourself and others when you read, and it will open up your mind in those ways.
And it puts you in moral quandaries, these ethical situations where you can kind of have the landscape of your mind to really play with it. Like, what would I do in this situation? Like, we can sit here all day and say, oh yeah, I believe in utilitarianism, the greater good. But in that trolley problem, what if it was your mom? Are you still here for the greater good? Or are you like, nah, that's my mama?
Reading can be validating. It can help us grow. It can help us do so many things. I could sit here and talk about a multitude of examples of books I've read and characters that I was touched by, regardless of whether or not I identified with their demographics.
I read The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, and there are so many aspects of her young character's identity that I understood — what it meant to desire whiteness, or desire to have light eyes. When you are taught that everything that you naturally are is bad, is subhuman, is meant to be disregarded, I understand why you could have such an innocent desire for this thing that is so far out of your reach, is never meant to be, but is also held in your face as, if you could get there, life would be perfect. All of these things wouldn't be true for you. I understand that.
But I also read Gone With the Wind, and one of my favorite characters in that book is Melanie. I remember very clearly reading that book and crying when she died, because I was like, Melanie is the heart of all of these people. She is the strongest character here, even though they describe her in so many ways as kind of a smaller personality, meek, quiet, frail, sick, all of these kinds of things. But she is fundamentally the strongest, kindest person in the entire book. And I remember crying when she died because I just related to this idea of, people see you in one way, but underneath all of that is such power. And there are obviously some people who see it and pick up on it, but so many that don't.
SHAY: Yeah.
DR. JOHNSON: I also remember my brother laughing at me because he's like, why are you crying over a book? But all of that, again, this idea of theory of mind, of developing empathy — if I were living in Gone With the Wind, right? If I were living during that period of time as some of my ancestors were, I wouldn't be looking at any of these people with any amount of — but because I have an idea of the inside, it's like I can see aspects of myself in that person. I can see their humanity, because all of us are humans.
SHAY: Right.
DR. JOHNSON: Even if I don't agree with any or most or whatever of your decisions, I can see that one thread there.
SHAY: Oof, oof.
DR. JOHNSON: And it can at least inspire in you a desire to not wish for the worst for another person. That part. So I think that piece is important. And it is my personal view that we've lost some of that because we don't feel as connected to our fellow humans.
SHAY: Absolutely, yeah. I remember watching Reading Rainbow and becoming so addicted to Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. And again, like, just knowing that there were other worlds like that, that there were people existing in these other spaces that I had never even dreamed existed.
What is it like for you as a reader and being so passionate about reading, and then witnessing this era that we're in now with the banned books? To me it feels like there are fires happening left and right in the book world.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Generally speaking, I don't necessarily feel like there should be any banned books. You can put a warning label on it like we do with anything else.
SHAY: Yeah.
DR. JOHNSON: But I do think that access to information is important. For the reasons that I talked about before, but also it develops our critical thinking. We need critical thinking. We need to be able to discern what is an obvious truth from an obvious lie. And it makes it harder for people to know how to read between the lines and understand the nuance of people.
And then also, every time I look at what's actually on the banned list, I'm like, this is just silly. We've got To Kill a Mockingbird —
SHAY: Judy Blume?
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Like, it's always — it's never what I think it's gonna be. I'm like, there is some fan fiction out here that is way worse than anything on this banned book list.
SHAY: Oh, Lord. All right. Next question. In communities that value reason, debate, and evidence, how do we make room for imagination, storytelling, and emotional perspective-taking as serious forms of knowledge?
DR. JOHNSON: I would say that feelings and experiences are definitely information for your own experience, and maybe how you're connected to a greater experience. But a feeling doesn't eliminate a fact in a situation. Like, you brought up the DEI stuff, right? It's a fact that DEI helped other groups of people way more than it did Black people. When they looked at who got the most help from this, I believe the group number one was white women. So —
SHAY: Sorry.
DR. JOHNSON: No, that's nothing to apologize for.
SHAY: No, I'm just kidding.
DR. JOHNSON: But I bring that up to say, in our discourse around different topics like this, people do a lot of that feelings thing. Like, I feel like Black people blah blah blah. And I'm like, well, what are the facts? Like, you can feel something about Black people and then that's factually untrue. And so again, I think those types of things get complicated, because I have seen online debates where a person is giving people factual information and they're just ignoring the facts to be like, well, I feel — and it's like, this isn't really a debate.
The purpose of a standard debate is kind of a point, counterpoint. We both have stances that are primarily grounded in facts, and we can all have a lot of emotions around the facts. Like, if it was a fact that it was raining right now, I might feel bummed out about that, but it doesn't change the fact that it is raining right now.
Debate is usually grounded in facts, but if the basis of it is my feelings and my reality, then it's almost like Alice Through the Looking Glass. I have now stepped into another world, and that world is dictated by your imagination, which means that the rules are ever-changing. Because if I give you a fact, what are you gonna do with that? You're just gonna be like, well no, I don't feel like that's true.
SHAY: And you can constantly move the goalposts.
DR. JOHNSON: Absolutely, you can constantly move the goalposts, yeah. So we're all allowed to have feelings. Feelings are important. And when we are debating and talking about topics that impact people outside of the self, it has to be grounded in this consensus reality.
To give another example — there are flat Earthers, people who believe that the Earth is flat. Objectively, that is untrue. We have so much data that says that's untrue. But if I were talking to a flat Earther, it doesn't matter what I say. I could put them into a cannon and shoot them into space for them to see it for themselves, and they're still gonna say that the Earth is flat. So by definition, that is not a debate. That's just me talking to another person. It has to be couched in this consensus reality.
SHAY: But then — oh, okay.
DR. JOHNSON: Sorry, I think I probably messed up your question with that.
SHAY: No, no, no, no. I guess, like — so part of what I'm revisiting in their question, I would wanna think through is, like, what is my intention here? Like, if I'm engaging in debate and the other person isn't — which is what I would argue, if you're just here to talk about your emotions and it's not grounded in facts — we're not actually having a debate, right? So what that means is we have a difference of understanding of what it is that we came here to do today.
I'm wondering if their question is more to do with how we make more room for qualitative data.
DR. JOHNSON: I mean, I think you can always be curious about another person's experience and get that information. Again, if it's like a one-to-one kind of relationship kind of thing. But you know, again, this is so context-specific. Like I brought up the flat Earth thing. I think another example is if we were to look at energy concerns. We're very fossil fuel dependent. We know the impacts that that's having on us globally. But it's also very painful to change that.
SHAY: Right.
DR. JOHNSON: Like it restructured so many things. And a lot of times when people engage in that, it's like, well I don't wanna do this thing because of this reason that is based on feelings and convenience and familiarity, because change is very complicated and hard. That is a real thing. Changing is hard. Nobody wants to do it. I don't want to do it even though I force myself to do it on a regular basis.
SHAY: Yeah.
DR. JOHNSON: But I think that you should always have empathy and compassion for people, even if you don't agree. If you go in with the intention of trying to change someone's mind and that's the only thing you're focused on, it makes all of your relationships transactional, and I try to move away from that and create space for us to tolerate each other. It goes back to what I was saying in the beginning — can we keep this tolerable? Because if we can keep it tolerable, we can always come back to have another conversation. And who knows what conversation will change something for a person.
I brought up the KKK earlier, so now I'm thinking of a KKK example. But there was that guy — I can't remember his name — but he was a Black male who befriended someone who previously was a white supremacist. And how did he do that? They had to tolerate each other for that to occur. Like, if they saw each other and just fought immediately on sight, you never get to that point of developing any sort of friendship with one another.
So creating that space where it's like, we can tolerate each other, we're different, we believe what's moral or what's good is in slightly different directions, but we'll just keep having conversations and see where we land. And it goes back to what I said earlier about not wishing the worst on anyone. When we get into that sort of mentality, we can start to police people in ways that don't allow people to be human. Because we start saying, well, this one way is the right way, and even if you're doing it this way, you gotta do it exactly how I'm doing it. So we start to get into that mode, and then people feel like they can't breathe, and then you start having more and more polarization.
And polarization is the opposite of what we want, because as humans, we're social creatures. We need community. One of the biggest reasons why people are struggling so much right now is they're too independent, hyper-independent, versus having that community connection in a variety of ways.
SHAY: One more question. You shared a post about how people often see themselves as more moral than their actions actually demonstrate. In humanist or progressive communities, people often pride themselves on being ethical, rational, or justice-oriented. How can that positive self-image sometimes become a barrier to real accountability?
DR. JOHNSON: In so many ways, it's kind of like horseshoe theory. The more you get into extremes, the more people are the same. When I look at people who identify as extremely left wing and I look at people who identify as extremely right wing, oftentimes they display a lot of the same behaviors. It's one of those things where you start to see similar characteristics. You know, I tell my patients all the time, if you put a pig in a dress, it's still a pig. So when I see people that are extreme, they sometimes engage in kind of this righteous, one-way bullying behavior. If you're even one degree different from me, you are a problem. I am wagging my finger at you.
Sometimes we can be too fixated on labels. Well, I'm a good, moral — but what does that mean? I don't know about y'all, but life is very complicated. I'm presented with situations on a daily basis where there is no one answer, and it really takes time and loss of sleep sometimes to be like, okay, I'm gonna choose this, and I'm gonna hope that it was the right choice to make. I really tried my best. I really considered it. Oh wait, I got it kind of wrong. That's a very common practice in life. So again, I wonder — what does that mean? And do I only mean that for people who think like me? I always come back to that question, because if I'm very moral and ethical and all of those things, but do I only mean that if you think like me?
SHAY: Oh, I'm so guilty of that.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. And listen, this is true within groups. Like you were asking earlier about being an ally. You have to always consider groups of people, but also individual people, right? Like, you could take something like the queer community — that's not a monolith.
SHAY: Of course, yeah.
DR. JOHNSON: There are a lot of people with a lot of different thoughts about things, and some of those thoughts you would think are counter to their existence, and they think those things anyway. So if you say I'm an ally, is it just to some? Is it to all? Like, what does that mean, and how does that look in practice?
SHAY: Even within the humanist movement, there are people that are demonstrating what I would consider to be atrocious behavior or beliefs that I wouldn't consider to be humanist. But what I admire so much about you, and what I don't currently have the tools to do — that I would love to continue working on with my therapist — is I don't currently have the patience or the toolbox to have those types of conversations with people to eventually hopefully meet at a good healthy halfway mark. It would still very much be with an ulterior motive of like, hopefully I can bring them to my side by the end of this seed-planting journey. But when I think about that, that's very ego-based, because that implies that I think I'm right and that they're entirely wrong. So I really do admire you for being able to have those conversations and be nuanced about it, because I definitely am not. I'm very much like, nope, block, I don't want anything to do with them anymore.
DR. JOHNSON: I think that you have to know what your bandwidth is. When I talk about being an ally and things like that, I often think about it in terms of, I love RPGs, and when I think about allyship and just being a human being, I think about it very much in that kind of character-building mindset. Like, everybody kind of has a role that they're naturally good at. Some of us are healers, some of us are tanks, some of us are paladins. Understand your kind of starting point and focus on maximizing the things that you are naturally good at. So you're saying, hey, I don't have, at least right now, the tolerance for this. It doesn't mean that you can't put some points in that skill tree. But what are you naturally good at right now? Focus on that.
Like, some of us are the type of people who are gonna get in people's faces. We're gonna be on those streets. We're gonna protest and all of that. And others of us will spend a whole Saturday sending 1,000 letters to senators and X, Y, and Z. It's all helpful. There's no one way to be helpful, the same way that there's no one way to be destructive. So it's kind of like choose your own adventure in terms of what it is that you wanna do.
I think part of why my skill set is the way that it is, is that I was raised in an environment that was not always the safest, especially for myself as a Black woman who had a desire to be educated. I want to be very clear — stereotype threat? No, stereotype death is kind of what it's like to be in the South. And during those times that I was growing up, just the general energy is, oh, you're Black, you're not supposed to do all of these things, especially in a small town environment where there's very little to contradict the stereotypes that people build up for themselves.
It took a lot of building my skill tree, and also a capability of tolerating situations and people that did not always see me in a positive light. It is unlikely that I thought of it this way at that time — I was probably just stressed and tired and like, you're getting in my way type of energy. But years later, as a psychologist looking back, all of that stuff has helped me to be better at what it is that I do. I can kind of go basically anywhere and I can find a way to connect to people, and I can find a way to help people.
Because at the end of the day, guess what? We're all people. It doesn't matter if I'm Black and you're Jewish or Arabic or whatever. If we can show up with a little bit of grace in our hearts, we can always find the humanity in the other person. And to be clear, that doesn't mean that we're gonna be best friends. I started out doing forensic work, and I was in rooms with people who had engaged in very horrific acts. I could see the humanity in them. I could also see that their humanity was gonna keep doing what it was doing.
SHAY: Wow.
DR. JOHNSON: Because again, we are not a monolith. We have different things. You know, there are some of us where we may just lie occasionally because lying is human and everybody does it, but we try our best. And then sometimes you run into a person that's like, I'm gonna lie.
SHAY: Oh, you've met my exes?
DR. JOHNSON: Listen, you know, and it's one of those things of like, do I have to hate this person? No. I can understand that this person is a liar. Their history shows that, and that is information I can use to navigate the situation. Because if I know that a person is a liar and I know that, it is a choice for me to say, I'm gonna give this person my heart, I'm gonna give this person this, I'm gonna give this person that, knowing they're gonna lie. Like, if I know that you're a liar and I give you $100 expecting you to pay me back, that's a me problem, that's not a you problem, because I already knew you were a liar. So if I wanted to get that $100 back, I should've never given it to you in the first place.
SHAY: Or if you give that person your vote —
DR. JOHNSON: All of the above. We have to take accountability for our actions and our inactions, and it doesn't mean that we are to blame for somebody doing something wrong. Blame and accountability are two different things. But we are all connected. Truly. And voting shows us that.
I should have worn my 92% earrings today if we're gonna — I do have earrings.
SHAY: All right. You're just super cool. Thank you, because I know we're at time. Will you please come back at some point?
DR. JOHNSON: Oh, sure.
SHAY: Yeah.
DR. JOHNSON: Okay.
SHAY: Thank you. I mean, listen, if all you guys want her to do is talk about video games and how video games and reading can help you be a better person —
DR. JOHNSON: Yes! Like, I — okay, thank you. Thank you.
SHAY: Wait. Okay, hold on, because you mentioned RPGs, and I am — I'm such a massive, but specifically Link to the Past, Legend of Zelda fan.
DR. JOHNSON: I mean, I love Ocarina — I have very early memories of Legend of Zelda. I will say that I really got into — let me think about my first RPGs that I really, really got into.
SHAY: I have all of my cartridges right over here, so don't —
DR. JOHNSON: Because when we talk about console games, then I'm thinking in the way, way back. I mean —
SHAY: Oh, I love you.
DR. JOHNSON: I was a classic kid. There was a lot of Mario going on. I had the —
SHAY: Yes.
DR. JOHNSON: Duck Hunt. Yes. There was a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles game —
SHAY: Yes.
DR. JOHNSON: Where I had to go in a warehouse and jump on boxes. Like, that game was hard.
SHAY: Yes.
DR. JOHNSON: I definitely remember that. I will say that my favorite console was a Sega Genesis, and I will fight over that. There were so many good games on a Sega that I just couldn't replicate. Aladdin on Sega is a very difficult game. I remember playing all of my Sonic games on Sega, and they used to have Sonic & Knuckles. And I don't know if you remember, but you could open the top of the cartridge and jack in Knuckles to Sonic, so it was a double cartridge.
SHAY: I just remember the Sega commercials were wild. Sega!
DR. JOHNSON: Yes. I just have such good memories with it. I mean, I also like the Nintendo 64. But —
SHAY: I stopped after Super Nintendo, though. Like, I literally was original Nintendo, then Super Nintendo, and then I stopped. But I have my Super Nintendo right there in my cabinet.
DR. JOHNSON: I stopped being primarily a console gamer and went into computer games. And then it's a lot of memories of, like, I played Duke Nukem, I played the first iteration of The Sims, I did all of that. Tomb Raider, like, all of those games.
And then I remember there was a period in high school where I thought that, as a girl, I couldn't play video games, so I stopped. And then my sophomore year of college, I had a female friend who was also a computer science major, and it just reawakened. And so the first game I remember playing then was Neverwinter Nights, and I loved that game.
And then one of my favorite RPG series is Dragon Age. I did not play the most recent one, but the original trilogy I really enjoy. I enjoy the original Mass Effect trilogy. I have played most of Fallout, but it is not my favorite. And I don't have as much time to play video games now, but I am in the middle of Cyberpunk 2077. And it's not like an RPG, but I'm playing this little fishing game called Dredge that is fun.
SHAY: I hope you understand that now you're probably gonna be everyone's favorite guest of all time.
DR. JOHNSON: Oh, because I'm mentioning all of the video games that I play?
SHAY: Yes.
DR. JOHNSON: Okay. Well, I mean, that's just touching the surface. I mean —
SHAY: You're gonna be like honorary humanist of the — like, you already sound very humanist, but this just totally puts you over.
DR. JOHNSON: Yeah. I played a lot of video games. It's like one of my favorite things to do. I love story. Story is my biggest thing. So if it's not an RPG, then I'll play something like — oh, I even donated to their Kickstarter. There's a series of games called the Banner Saga, and it's like a turn-based game, like fantasy energy. And it's very storyboard-like with the characters. Ooh, Disco Elysium. I played that last year. That's a really good one. So yeah, I mean, I like video games.
SHAY: You're amazing.
DR. JOHNSON: And I started doing console again. My husband had a PS3 when we moved in together, and I played The Last of Us, and I loved that game so much that it brought me back to consoles. And then I started playing Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls — it's like all of these kind of moral —
SHAY: The Last of Us would freak me out too much. I'm a little chicken when it comes to that.
DR. JOHNSON: I like things that, again, put you in kind of a moral quandary where you have to make choices. There was a gaming company that closed down called Telltale Games. And they did a whole Walking Dead series, they did all of this. And I like games where my choices matter. I played Detroit: Become Human. Loved that game. It also involves AI and things like that that we deal with currently. So you start looking at, okay, what choices am I making, and how will this impact the outcome of the story? Because it's totally on me. I'm making these decisions.
SHAY: Thank you so much.