Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
HR Voices is a scenario-based podcast for People Leaders who’ve actually had to make the call.
Each episode brings experienced HR and People leaders into realistic, anonymized workplace scenarios—the kind you recognize immediately. Performance issues. Messy conflicts. Investigations that don’t fit neatly into a policy box. Instead of talking about their own companies, guests react to outside cases and walk through how they’d think it through in real time.
There are no right answers here. What you’ll hear is judgment: how seasoned leaders balance risk, fairness, legal reality, and humanity when the stakes are high and the path isn’t obvious.
HR Voices is for HR, People Ops, legal, and leaders who want to hear how other smart humans actually handle employee relations—without confidentiality breaches, hypotheticals that feel fake, or a lecture on “best practices.”
Jeannie Virden
===
[00:00:00] Welcome to HR Voices, a podcast where people leaders share their side of the story. We talk about the challenges they're facing, how they're addressing them, and what changes they hope to see as the workplace evolves. This podcast is sponsored by AllVoices, the all-in-one employee relations platform.
Hello, and welcome to HR Voices. I'm your host, Rebecca Taylor, and I'm here with Jeannie Virden, the Chief People Officer at Central Health. Jeannie, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah, thank you so much for being here. And for those who are new here, maybe if this is your first time listening to HR Voices, this is a podcast that explores real and fabricated anonymized employee relation scenarios through the lens of experienced HR and people leaders just like Jeannie.
So we're gonna evaluate a realistic workplace situation and demonstrate how we would assess risk, apply judgment, and design practical responses. So our goal here isn't to reveal, isn't to sort of have like a right or wrong answer to anything. It's really to just reveal how strong HR leaders think when facing ambiguity, because that's so much of what our job is and so much of what occupies our brain and our [00:01:00] time in this job.
So Jeannie, are you ready for your scenario? I am. Okay. We're calling this one the accommodating conflict. An employee with a documented anxiety disorder requests a medical accommodation to work from home full-time. HR approves the accommodation. Three months later, her manager claims her remote performance is inadequate and wants to place her on a PIP.
HR must determine whether the PIP process can proceed, whether the accommodation itself created performance barriers, whether the manager's evaluation is objective, and how to avoid having the PIP characterized as adverse action targeting a protected accommodation. So lots of layers to this one. Lots of layers, lots of complexity in this one, yes.
Yes. Yeah. So just to start us off, what stands out to you as sort of the most risky or the most unclear in the scenario as it's been portrayed so far? So really, it's really around the accommodation, right? From what we know, it's to work from home full-time. It doesn't really lay out if there's any other provisions around the [00:02:00] accommodation and what that looks like.
So I think for me, that's the most risky, again, 'cause you don't know if that's the only one or if there's other factors that we need to consider when we're looking at the accommodation as a whole. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. It's like, is it, you know, are there different ways that they need to interact with each other?
Are there changes to work hours maybe in addition to kind of working from home? You're right. It is very ambiguous that way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So if this is on your desk and you're kind of like, okay, now this is the next project for you to work on, right? Right. Where do you start in kind of trying to get to the bottom of what's going on?
So who are you talking to? Who are you starting conversations with? Let's start there. Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first place that I'm gonna go is I'm gonna go to my leaves team, right? And I'm gonna understand the accommodation more in detail. I'm gonna, again, to work from home full-time, so what were the parameters around that?
To your point, are there any, you know, changes the, to the actual approach to what that means, right? So like were there changes in hours? Were there changes in expectations? Were there changes in her job duties [00:03:00] as a whole? So I think that's where I'm gonna start first, just to understand that before I take my next step, which is really then going to- The manager, right?
Um, and before I even go to the manager, I guess I should actually stop and pause. Once I got the information about the accommodation, then I would actually go into the employee's history, right? Mm-hmm. So when did they start? When were they put into this position? How long have they been reporting to this manager?
You know, what are, what's the job description? What has she been doing? What's her last performance review, ~or their performance review, I should say. I don't know it's a her. You know- Yeah ... and that type of thing. I think it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it is. Okay. ~So do all of that first, and then my next step is gonna be the manager.
But I think it's important, again, to understand what's the accommodation, but then also for the employee, what is their story, right? Yeah. What is their employee story with our organization? Um, because that's gonna be very telling as well, I think. Yeah. I think it's so true. It's like there's a lot of you know, usually there's a lot of different documentation about throughout someone's employee journey, right?
Yep. There's, you can even go so far back as to interview notes from when [00:04:00] they first interviewed. Usually you're, you know, if you're tracking it properly, everything about, like, how this person's been here has been documented in a way, right? Yep. So you can get a lot of context from, like you said, how long have they been here?
How long have they been reporting to this manager? You know, what are their most recent performance reviews, or ones prior to this? And I like that you're kind of taking the, taking the moment to kind of just get the s- the lay of the land a little bit before you're jumping right into conversations, just so you can come at it from a place with a little bit more context.
Oh, absolutely, because I think it's gonna be important, right? Have they been in this role for, you know, just a short period of time? Yeah. Right? Or have they been doing this for years and years? You know, and if so, so I think, I think that has to, uh, drive some of the conversations with the manager. Yeah.
Now, what about the manager's history? Would you look at if the manager has any sort of history in remote, in managing remote employees or any issues with the way that maybe his style translates? Yeah, absolutely. I would certainly look into [00:05:00] that because that's also gonna be very, um, important in telling as well.
You know, how long have they been a manager? How long have they been a manager here? What's their you know, leadership journey and development? Um, so have they had any of that? You know, do they manage remote workers? Have they gone through remote worker training? Um, you know, and again, how long have they actually been in their position overseeing this type of role?
That's important context as well. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I, I th- I always think it's interesting when it's, you know, when you look at the timeline of some of these, and it-- I know this is fabricated, so we're kind of talking about- Yeah ... you know, we have to take some of it with a grain of salt, right?
Absolutely. But the timeline here is the person gets their, you know, the, the accommodation to work from home, and then it's three months later, the manager is saying that their performance is inadequate. Now- What's your initial reaction to that amount of time? Is that enough time to gauge that for when there's that big of a change to someone's role, or does that not factor into where you are at this point now?
No, I definitely think it has to factor in, and I would say, you know, three months, [00:06:00] 90 days, more or less. I mean, if you think about when you h- onboard a new employee, what's your onboarding period? I know, it's typically you have a 90-day, you know, review or that type of thing. So I do think it's enough time to give you context as to whether or not they're able to do their role, and if not what are the concerns around that?
So I do, I do think that would work. But again, I wanna understand what happened in those 90 days. Mm-hmm. Right? So did the role change? Again, did the approach change? So really talking to the manager and really breaking it down to say, "What isn't working?" And be specific, right? And then really understand, is it more of a skill, right, that we can go back in and we can retrain, redevelop?
But then part of it is, if it's a skill, what have they been doing in the last 90 days to... as an intervention? Yeah. Right? So I mean, is this just an inconvenience for them that they don't want someone to be fully remote, maybe if their whole team is on site? We see a lot [00:07:00] of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so is it or-- So is it really more, some...
and again, if it's a skill, what have they been doing in those last 90 days to ensure that they're actually working towards them, giving them that feedback, changing whatever they can change in order to help make that team member successful? That's the most important thing. Yeah. I agree. Especially when it says that, in this scenario, the question is the manager wants to put her on a PIP.
Yeah. And so the question that HR needs to kinda figure out is, you know, do we... Is, is the, is it appropriate to go right to PIP, or what other things have happened kind of leading up to this, right? 'Cause you wanna know that there's been t- that there's been conversations and coaching moments kind of leading up to this, but a PIP is usually-- I know that it's, by intention it's meant to improve performance.
It's not meant to be weaponized, but it has a brand, right? A lot of, you know- It does ... employees have had unfortunate experiences with PIPs, so it kind of escalates the situation all around, even if it's not intended to, that's exactly [00:08:00] right, and I think, you know, part of it is what is your performance policies and procedures, right?
Mm-hmm. So to your point you know, you don't go straight to a PIP. You just don't call someone up and be like, "Your performance is horrible. We're gonna go straight to a PIP," and then the team member's surprised. You never want the team member- Yeah ... to be surprised. But the o- other pieces and you know, I, I hear this a lot with, you know, leaders, "Yeah, yeah, I've talked to them, I've talked to them.
It shouldn't be a surprise." But I'm like, "Where's the documentation?" Yeah. Where's, you know, just even a follow-up email, thank you for our time today, as we discussed X, Y, and Z. There needs to be some formal documentation in that 90 days to really understand that they've had these conversations, that there's been some sort of intervention to try to change their performance before we take this drastic step.
And you're right, a PIP is by virtue supposed to make a team member better. It's supposed to improve skills, provide them with the tools that they need in order to do their job better. But most people know that... Or they take the approach that a PIP is gonna be punitive, and they want me out of the [00:09:00] organization.
It's an unfortunate reality. Yeah. I think that's the challenge too is sort of like you're automatically now putting this employee in a position where they might feel like they don't know what to do. They might feel like it's retaliation, or they might feel like, you know, they're being punished for their accommodation, and that's where this starts to get, like, really hairy, right?
Because you don't want it to be adverse action against the protected accommodation. So what are some of the factors that go into evaluating something like that? Like- Yeah ... what would you kinda go about doing? So one, you know, again, understanding exactly what the parameters of the accommodation is understanding what they've done to support the accommodation, so I think that's gonna be very important as well.
And then two, I think it goes back to, is this a problem with actual skills, or is this a problem with the approach of how they're doing the work? And I think that there's interventions that can be done, either way. And so I would wanna make sure before we put them on a PIP that [00:10:00] everything, job expectations are the same.
They haven't been meeting that. It's been documented, and it's around verifiable skills or concerns or issues and not just a it's not working, right? Mm-hmm. A lot of managers, it's, it's just not working. It- Yeah ... the, the, you know, the, the output just isn't there. Well- Yeah ... what, what does that... I need more than the output isn't there.
I- Yeah, you gotta do better than that. Exactly. Exactly. I need concrete details, 'cause if I'm gonna put them on a PIP- Yeah ... it has to be actionable. It can't just say, you know, "You need to have better, you know, leadership skills," or whatever. It needs to be, no, we need to move from, from this place to this place.
Yeah. And here's what- Yeah ... we're going to do to get there. Yeah. And I think that's the key is sort of the, it needs to be, it needs-- It can be-- If it is about a missing skill, which when I read something like this, it sounds to me like it is just a missing skill, right? Mm-hmm. Um, or possibly a collection of missing skills, right?
Either the m- remote leadership, components and all the things that kinda go into that, and it could [00:11:00] also be maybe a communication challenge in the person who's working remotely now. Maybe, you know, because if you're a culture that kind of has a lot of presenteeism and visibility, and you're used to, you know, it's like they're working because they're here, that doesn't translate the same way in remote work.
So usually remote employees might have to make a little bit more effort to kind of make sure that they're seen, right? Extra communication. Even if it sounds, even if it's not part of their official job description, it still is kind of a step that's there. But it's kind of one of those, m- it's kind of one of those expectations that aren't usually directly stated, and I think that's the challenge with some of this stuff.
I would agree, and I... You know, the other part is, is I would also ask the leader, "What have you done to set expectations," right? Mm-hmm. You know, if y- if it's a communication problem, what expectations have you set? You know, are they supposed to give you a daily report or a daily check-in? Are they supposed to, how are they supposed to communicate with you?
And if you haven't set those expectations, they can't live up to it. I'm [00:12:00] not putting them on a PIP. We'll have a- Yeah ... we'll have a different type of meeting. We'll go ahead and set those expectations to say, "This is, this is what the concerns have been," knowing that there's been a gap there, so now we're gonna put this, these parameters into place.
Yeah. If you aren't gonna follow those parameters, then we'll have a different conversation later on. But, you know, a lot of the times the leaders don't put into the parameters, and they expect the employee to know, "Oh my gosh, I just know I need to do this," or I, to your point, "I know I need to communicate more."
But what does that even mean- Yeah ... if they've never been told? Yeah. Yeah. And what I think is kind of funny, and I'm just kind of noticing this as we're talking this through, is, you know, we're kind of thinking about it as should this even be a PIP almost regardless of the protected, you know, of the protected accommodation piece, right?
'Cause to me, in my mind, that part doesn't matter. So much of HR is talking to managers, or almost sort of like talking managers down from doing something stupid. Right. I say that with love. You know, [00:13:00] but it's also just kind of like- I'm not even necessarily worried about the accommodation piece of it because I'm like, clearly there's something here between the two of you.
You just might need more time to figure out how to work. Now here's a question for you, ~'cause I think we ta- uh, we talked a little bit about this in prep, so I'm I wanna ask it here.~ So I've had experience with, you know, managers who i- similar types of situations, right? Documented anxiety disorder.
Managers were then worried about, how do I give this person feedback? You know, because they're scared of what, of, of putting this p- person in a position to, escalate their anxiety or, or something like that. How does, you know, does that kind of factor into situations like this where, I would...
And I'm making assumptions about fake people here, but I would assume that there's a level of avoidance in communication between the manager, that it could be kind of part of not knowing how to navigate this anxiety disorder that this person has and being afra- and translating that as, "Well, I can't give them any feedback then."
What do you think? Yes. No, you're exactly right, and a lot of people you know, they course correct too much, right? [00:14:00] Yeah. So it's kind of like, "Oh my gosh, now I have this. I can't do anything. I feel paralyzed." And that's really, it's unfortunate, so again, it's an unfortunate side effect. But I think as a manager, really understanding and knowing your team members is gonna be so important.
Yeah. And I think really, to be honest, and to be fair to all of your team members, you do have to give them feedback. I think that the more you know your team members, the easier the conversations are. And again, part of it is, is we're having a conversation right now, and I can tell by your body language you're nice and relaxed, you know, and I am too, and we're just having this conversation.
Yeah. But if I'm your manager and all of a sudden I'm giving you feedback, you know, first of all, think about how you're doing it. What's your tone? What's the empathy? What's your body language? And then watch them as they're receiving it. You can always pause the conversation and say, "How are you feeling?
Are you feeling uncomfortable?" You know, that type of thing. And, understanding, understanding what they're wanting out of a conversation and how they want it delivered too. [00:15:00] So I think that's gon- regardless of what situation is, I think that's important to know as a manager. How do you lead your team?
Yeah. And everyone is different. You can't-- some people are like, "I'm just, I'm a direct feedback kind of person, and I'm just gonna give it to 'em." It doesn't work like that, right? Yeah, yeah. Some team members, regardless of accommodation or not, don't like really direct feedback, right? So how do you approach that conversation?
You still give them the feedback. You're still honest. But how you deliver it has to change and be empathetic, uh, with your teams, my opinion. I completely agree. And I think it's also- You can also just ask people, like, "How do you like to receive feedback?" Yeah. Or, you know, "Do you prefer feedback in writing?
Do you prefer to have a conversation first? Do you prefer to read it first and then talk so that, you know, you're, you have a little bit of time to sort of process and then you can have more of a conversation?" I, I do think that the onus is on the leader to flex to what the employee needs, because that's your job as the [00:16:00] leader is to make sure that each employee sort of has what they need to do the best version of their job that they can.
And, you know, I think this was always the thing when I was dealing with scenarios like this, you know, a manager would say, "I don't even know how to give this person feedback," and I would say, "Did you ever just ask them?" Right. Like, you can do that. It's totally fine to do that. That is... you're exactly right.
Like I said, have those conversations, get to know your team members. Same thing with recognition. You know- Mm-hmm ... a lot of people don't like public recognition, so- Yeah ... you know, they want private or they want a written note. Some people are like, "Yes, give me all of the public recognition. Put me out there on, you know, a SharePoint page," and you know, all of that.
So I mean, it's really just who are your... You have to get to know your team. You just have to- Yeah ... get to know your team members. Yeah. Yeah. And are there things that, as an HR leader, that you can put in place to prevent scenarios like this from happening? You know, specifically the well, I know that this sort of has a lot of different nuances, but I'll specifically talk about the feedback to PIP process.
What kinds of things can you put in place to [00:17:00] kind of make those a little bit more fair and consistent and less no feedback, PIP? So, um, I think most importantly it's gonna be, training and education, and unfortunately, so many, I'm just gonna say industries, right? So it's not just specific to one industry, but so many times you're a new leader, right?
Whether you're new to the organ- new to the organization, maybe even an experienced, um, leader but you're new to the organization. Mm-hmm. Or you're a great individual contributor and so now we're gonna make you a leader, and it's like, "Go ahead, lead." Yeah. Godspeed. How do we... Exactly. How do we support them?
So I think it's gonna be so important to like how do you have, how do you do performance management? What's the process? Like I said, what are your policies? What is the process? How do you have these conversations? I think we need to provide toolkits. We need to do in the training role play, right?
How do you have a difficult conversation? How would you approach this? I think the other piece of this, especially since there's an [00:18:00] accommodation here I don't think that we do enough education around what does the accommodation process mean. Mm-hmm. How does it work? What are the parameters in which you need to work as a leader, right?
How do you do that? Even same thing with FMLA. I mean, FMLA is a very, you know, legal process. If they're out for X amount of time, they're out, but we're seeing so many intermittent FMLA, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, how do you approach intermittent FMLA to ensure to your to your point, you know, that this isn't adverse action, because you didn't think about, oh, I, I'm gonna write them up for their attendance, but how many of them are FMLA?
You're not tracking that or- Right ... you know, those type of things. Yeah. I think that's the key is sort of the, the tracking component, right? So sometimes when it comes to accommodations or FMLA or any kind of leave you know, the, the tendency is to document the doctor's notes that are there, right? Like the, that type of paperwork.
But I think that's just sort of the bare minimum. I really think there needs to be sort of a full, toolkit almost for each [00:19:00] accommodation and each person, just because each scenario can be so different. Each person's case is gonna be different and their needs are gonna be different. And, implementing things like onboarding into a new role when you go remote, just sort of basic onboarding type actions.
Even if they're doing the same exact job, if they're doing it differently, it's gonna take time for someone to adjust, but you need to document what that's going to look like. For intermittent FMLA, there's like, you know, documentation for continuity if this person's gonna be out for this week, 'cause their work can't stop, right?
But, you know, if they have to approve things, then, you know, you have sort of a continuity plan. ~Excuse me.~ And that's the part that-- I think those are the things that people fear in accommodations. They think this isn't gonna get done exactly the way that I understand it, so therefore this person can't work out here."
Exactly. That's so lazy. It's-- And it's illegal. Like, you gotta, you need to be able to make reasonable accommodations. And just document it so you know what to refer to so the expectations are really clear right away. That's exactly right. And you know, [00:20:00] um, I always tell my managers, "If you're unsure, come to us, come to our team, come to our department."
You know, we have our, you know, our people partners who can help guide you. We have our leaves team who can help guide you. We c- we would rather guide upfront than try to, to your point, fix on the back end. Like, oh my gosh, a manager did this, now what? So. Yeah. But I think, you know, it's incumbent on us as organizations and truly as people leaders, to ensure that our leaders have the necessary training, education, and tools in order to have these effective conversations, in order to effectively manage these situations.
And I, I know that especially when budgets get cut, what's the la- what's the first thing that gets cut is training- Training ... education. Yeah. Yeah. And there, there are a lot of, uh, organizations that are running very lean right now, 'cause it's just sort of the, the theme, right? Do more with less everywhere.
And I think when you're getting rid of the training part of it, especially when it then shows up in scenarios like this, you're just opening yourself up to a ton of risk and [00:21:00] possibly a ton of cost. Like- Oh ... if this HR person didn't stop this PIP and put this PIP through, the employee took it as, you know, retaliation of some form, or if it's an adverse action, then, you could-- they have every right to go file a claim.
They can, you know, it can really, really escalate. And even in the best case scenario, you're now, you're now giving this employee an experience at the company that could make them less engaged, could make them start looking elsewhere, which means you then lose the productivity that they could have.
There's just... This can get very expensive very quickly. Oh, absolutely. In so many ways, in so many ways. And you know, I'm in Texas, and so we're a, employee at will state, and a lot of times, you know, managers, "Well, we're an employee at will state. I can let anyone go at any time for any reason." I'm like- Ugh
well, not necessarily. I mean- Yeah ... that's, uh, not the way to look at it. But even if even if you take that approach, they can always put forward a claim, and then you're gonna spend your time, the money, and the effort to defend it, even if you are right in the end. Yeah. [00:22:00] Like, why? Why, why- Yeah ... take that approach?
That's not a people-centered approach. Yes. So this is actually funny, 'cause this comes up a lot, you know, in these conversations, is the technically you are correct, but should you really do that, like balance, and I think that's the constant weight and the constant pressure of what makes these complicated.
That is exactly right. Yeah. Especially when you're dealing with things like at will. Um, I've also worked for organizations that moved, they moved operations from, from somewhere in Europe to the US specifically 'cause they wanted to take advantage of at will laws, and I was like- I don't think they-- th- these don't work the way you think they do, so maybe like rethink that.
That's right. So I think, you know, this is sort of, you know... I like that this is sort of something that you can kind of think about with, you-- sure the manager could be technically in their right to put this employee on a PIP, so it's like the conversation between the manager and if we were the HR people, it'd be like, "You could, but should you?"
Exactly. "Here are some other things you can explore." Exactly. Yeah. That's [00:23:00] why, that's why I think it's so funny that so much of HR's work kinda happens in these sort of like behind the scenes, closed door type moments, 'cause this employee who's, uh, who was about to be put on a PIP doesn't know that this is the conversation that's happening.
But it's like that's kinda-- that's like the whole point. That's what makes it really good. So it... I think that's why HR can be so misunderstood sometimes, 'cause so much of our work happens in these little confidential pockets. Oh, well, absolutely. And like you said earlier, no situation is the same.
Mm-hmm. You could have a similar situation and people are gonna see it, but you're gonna, again, because of these conversations, because of the specific details of it that no one knows, the outcomes and the interventions may be so different, and everyone's like going, "Well, wait a second. You're, you know, you're doing different things for different people."
Yeah, we are, because again, every situation is different. A lot of times I get asked about, you know, "Well, what would you do in this scena-scenario?" To your point, it depends. It depends. Yeah. There is no black, there is no white answer. It is, you know, it's clear-cut. It's always gray.
It's, well, it depends. What are [00:24:00] all of these other factors that you need to consider? No situation's gonna be the same. They may appear very close, but n- they will not be. Yep. It's why I always say if the, if the whole profession of HR ever had merch, just be T-shirts that say, "It depends. It depends." Yep.
Yep. 'Cause it's, it's the starting answer to basically everything. That's right. ~Oh. I actually, uh, believe it or not, we're actually at time, so I have one- Oh, wow ... last question for you. I know. Okay. ~So what is one assumption about HR that you think needs to be challenged? You know, I think this conversation clearly depicts that we are not just a, paper-pushing, policy-following, you know, check that box of, you know, type of role and approach to our people.
I think that everyone should really understand what the people department does or your HR department does to understand all of the nuances and all of the complexities that come with everything. So I mean, you know, whether it's from talent acquisition, once you're onboarding, your talent management, you know, leaves and, uh, benefits, you know, your development, whatever role, there's just so many complexities.[00:25:00]
Because as an organization, your employee population- Is just gonna be so different. And so yes, there are things that we require you to do. Some of it's required legally, some of it's because of our policies and procedures, and some of it's just the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. It's just the right thing to do for the employee, for the work, and to, and meet our business goals and needs, I love that. So well said. And thank you. And thank you so much, Jeannie, for being on here and for chatting through this scenario with me. I think this was a good one. This was a lot of fun. It was. It was. Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation. Yeah. Thank you everybody for listening, and I hope you all have a good rest of your day.
Bye.