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Its Where I Am focuses on the various mental health struggles that people all around the world face every day. Each episode covers a different facet of mental health with a new special guest. It's Where I Am airs on 91.5 Jazz & More every second Saturday of the month.
Announcer 00:00
This is a KUNV Studios original program.
Wesley Knight 00:04
You are listening to special programming brought to you by It'sWhereIAM.com. The content of this program does not reflect the viewser opinions of 91.5 Jazz and more University of Nevada, Las Vegas, or the Board of Regents of the Nevada System of Higher Education.
Zandra Polard 00:44
Good morning, Las Vegas. This is Zandra Polar. It's where I am. This is a lovely Sunday morning, and we have returning Stewart Gosh. Welcome back.
Stuart Kosh 00:59
Thank you for having me, Zandra. Thank you very much. We're
Zandra Polard 01:01
gonna continue with part two, and I don't have the book in front of me, so remind us the title of the book.
Stuart Kosh 01:11
Yeah, no worries. I've been giving these things away, so they're coming and going. But overcoming self-destruction in a postmodern world.
Zandra Polard 01:20
Yes. And the
Stuart Kosh 01:20
book title is "The Four Narratives.
Zandra Polard 01:24
That's right, the four narratives, and you get into the four archetypes of relations, or not even relations, but kind of like the style or personality of yes,
Stuart Kosh 01:41
his personal people,
Zandra Polard 01:42
yeah. So give us the framework again.
Stuart Kosh 01:46
Yeah, really quick, I'll break it down. Is that hey, you know, we live in a in a very complex, systematic, regimented society. Everybody is programmed to do the same thing over and over again without even really thinking about
Zandra Polard 02:00
it. Right,
Stuart Kosh 02:01
and so you can either kind of go with the grain, you know, and be a part of that, or you can kind of fight against it. Yeah, right. And there are these two, sorry, four narratives that are associated with either going against it or going with it, like going all in or emotionally cutting off totally from society, or isolating totally from society, and those four narratives are or other
Zandra Polard 02:28
people. I have to say that, or other people.
Stuart Kosh 02:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're cutting, yeah, yeah. And this, you know, goes to without saying it's some part. It's a part of society. People, yeah, you know. So we're just going to isolate by ourselves, be fatalistic, that kind of thing. But the four narratives: altruism, egoism, fatalism, and anomie. In my book, I refer to them as the pseudo-altruists, the infallible egoists, the hopeless fatalists, and the self-sequestered anomics. And most people don't know they're making a conscious decision to either burn out or isolate. And it's my book is about resolving a conflict between isolation and togetherness, intellectualizing of emotions and emotionally reasoning.
Zandra Polard 03:21
Well, I'll give you a scenario. So after reading the book, I caught myself. I noticed I was doing something that makes me go into flight mode. You know, in self preservation. So someone had asked me for something where I would have normally said okay, and I would have been saying yes, okay. But this time I said no. I said no, and I was worried about the response. But you know what? There was no argument. They simply said okay, and probably moved on to their next victim.
Stuart Kosh 04:00
Yeah, and without even maybe knowing it,
Zandra Polard 04:04
right? Right, because I think sometimes it's just a habit of people who, yeah, yeah, you know, they look for people who are givers. Takers look for givers, right?
Stuart Kosh 04:18
Right, right, right. And but it's a very interesting. We we we me start like talk about like this as taking and giving and good or bad. We look at it as like functional or non-functional.
Zandra Polard 04:32
Okay.
Stuart Kosh 04:32
Yeah, and and then we go. We we were talking about this before. If I feel bad, I help. If I don't help, I don't feel bad,
Zandra Polard 04:42
but initially I felt bad. Initially I felt bad, but then I felt relief. I felt good because I knew and understood what was happening
Stuart Kosh 04:52
after reading the book. Yeah, yeah, it's a very interesting thing. Is that we? Yeah, this this equation, right? I if I feel bad, I help. Right, I don't help. I don't feel bad. Right, so but but in that equation, right, people know that they just can't straight up ask for anything. So this is how normal people ask for something. Hey, I know you're really busy right now. I wouldn't normally ask, but I'm in a really terrible way, and if I don't get what I need. I'm going to starve to death and die, and you don't want that to happen. So here, let me tell you what I need now.
Zandra Polard 05:25
Right. Whoa, whoa,
Stuart Kosh 05:26
whoa, whoa, what, what, what, what? That's why when we get some of these phone calls, we're like, oh my god, who's calling me again? Before we even answer the phone, because we know that people, when they ask for things, and if we're a giver, like you said, right, um, we're gonna say yes. We're gonna feel guilty if we don't. If we say no, we're gonna say yes, and that that speaks to that overdeveloped sense of responsibility that leads to people pleasing, that leads to a poor sense of self, that leads to only seeing yourself as valuable valuable through altruism and infallibility or egoism, right? And then from those two narratives, I'm going to call these archetypes the the pseudo altruists, the policeman and the nurse, right? And then I'm going to take the infallible egoists. I'm going to break them up into the salesman and the actress. So we got some gender specificity here. Maybe you know, like it doesn't necessarily have to be that the actress is a is a female. It could be a very dramatic person, a dramatic man. Really has to sell themselves and really be the center of attention. It's interesting because the infallible egoists mirror histrionic personality disorder. So if you look up what histrionic personality disorder, these are the guys in the groups. They got to be the center of attention. It's all about me. This is a Jim Carrey type, right? You got to give these guys 15 minutes at the front of the class. You know, these are these types, but they-they these are the actor types, yeah. Not knowing how to be an audience member,
Zandra Polard 07:05
yeah,
Stuart Kosh 07:06
and that's the integration. So when you said that you were, it sounds like you were you were acting as this archetype of the nurse.
Zandra Polard 07:14
Yes,
Stuart Kosh 07:14
right. You were being everybody. You were being everything for everyone but yourself.
Zandra Polard 07:18
Yes, I'm definitely the nurse, as you describe it in your book,
Stuart Kosh 07:23
right? Cool, and we get we're getting back into that archetype here in a second.
Zandra Polard 07:26
Okay,
Stuart Kosh 07:27
but the nurse integrated is someone that uses compassion and empathy and understanding to say no. That's the integrated version of the nurse saying, "Oh my goodness, I know this sounds that sounds horrible. I really wish I could help, but I couldn't do it without putting what I need aside right now. And this is it's unfortunate, but I really wish you the best. I really hope this works out, and you can reach out again. Maybe my situation will change.
Zandra Polard 07:58
Oh no, I don't say all
Stuart Kosh 08:00
that. Well, what did you say? Just very simply, yeah. Because no can be a complete sentence.
Zandra Polard 08:07
No. Yep. I just said no. I don't have it. But it was also a text message. It was not face to face.
Stuart Kosh 08:15
Ooh, yeah. See, and this is a this makes interacting even more difficult, challenging in a postmodern world, a very industrialized world, is like you have all these mediums of communication where you don't necessarily see face to face. Where it's just a lot easier
Zandra Polard 08:31
to say no to be
Stuart Kosh 08:32
manipulative. And but it should be a lot easier to say no, right? Unless of course we're built that way, where if we're an emotionally avoidant person, we don't like to feel emotions, anger or sorrow, or any of this type of stuff, and that might be why we're so emotionally fused to individuals that we think have potential that don't know how to help themselves.
Zandra Polard 08:59
Oh, okay.
Stuart Kosh 09:01
So it's and but but these are not when when when when we we talk about functionalism. This Emile Durkheim guy that came up with the four types of suicides, which are the four narratives, or where we're derived, the four narratives are derived from anyway. He talked about functionalism, and either things functional, non-functional, right? And so in this equation, when you adopt the pseudo-altruist, when you adopt the thinking of the soluble egoist, when you adopt the thinking of the self-sequestered anomic and the hopeless fatalist, it's unsustainable. You're working towards burnout, or you're working towards isolation and a fade away into the periphery, so it's either or in these extremes. You know, we might find ourselves as all or nothing type people.
Zandra Polard 09:48
So let me ask you, what type are you?
Stuart Kosh 09:50
I'm across the all across the board, right? But because of what, and this is the the the guy that came up with this theory that the. The world would become very industrialized. We'd lose our sense of self, and we'd all struggle with anomie and fade into like this suicide. I think it can be people can struggle with all four. They can vacillate between the first two, you know, being the altruist and the egoist, and then burning out and becoming the fatalist and the
Zandra Polard 10:19
anomie. Yeah, I can identify with that.
Stuart Kosh 10:21
Yeah, but so so, but I think what you're saying and
Zandra Polard 10:24
no, I ask
Stuart Kosh 10:25
you know
Zandra Polard 10:26
I I ask
Stuart Kosh 10:27
or no what
Zandra Polard 10:28
what
Stuart Kosh 10:28
you were saying you were the nurse sorry
Zandra Polard 10:30
no but I was asking you yeah what archetype are you closest sure
Stuart Kosh 10:34
and so what I'll say is uh is yeah based on what you were sorry I was trying to rephrase I know you were
Zandra Polard 10:40
deflecting.
Stuart Kosh 10:41
No, no, no, no. More, more speaking to just the the the baseline that we operate from, right? So some people really feel they're introverted people, yeah, and they feel better. Just they recharge by themselves, so they might really at baseline be someone that reasons with emotion, someone that's emotionally addicted, and because of that, they personalize everything, and they become, in their eyes, a victim, and then misanthropic, and then that's where you get fatalism, and and and and only
Zandra Polard 11:16
understood.
Stuart Kosh 11:17
See, see these people, these people, yeah. See, so so some people operate from that baseline, right? Where they don't want to, they don't want to integrate. They kind of want to stay to themselves, Netflix and chill. I think you and I operate from the baseline where we want to be somebody. We want to walk away with something. We want to contribute in some way. We want to be a part of this thing.
Zandra Polard 11:42
Okay, would
Stuart Kosh 11:42
you agree?
Zandra Polard 11:43
Yes. So, are you saying that we, which includes you, me
Stuart Kosh 11:47
and you, yeah,
Zandra Polard 11:48
that you identify closer to the nurse at most times?
Stuart Kosh 11:53
Yes, I'm a nurse, a nurse and a policeman, a salesman and an actress, and I've been a salesman before. And let me tell you, man, you know it's all about finding out what your guy needs and figuring out how to give him to give it to him. It's not about your own needs,
Zandra Polard 12:09
right?
Stuart Kosh 12:10
Right.
Zandra Polard 12:10
That's very. And then the
Stuart Kosh 12:11
actress, the actress is all about a performance, right? It's not about a sense of self. It's just about again, what do these people want to hear? Now, the nurse and the policeman, what they do is they give unconditionally, but the way they try to help others is actually correcting.
Zandra Polard 12:32
Yes, many
Stuart Kosh 12:33
nurses and policemen are not helping; they're correcting. Correct. This is why interest and very interesting. This is why when we walk around with our shoes untied, go ahead and do that. See how many people pull you aside and tell your shoes untied. Tell them I don't care. They're gonna be like, "What the? Excuse me? You just walk around with your shoe untied? You're gonna hurt yourself, right? Right? Gas caps off. Gas caps off. You guys screaming at you across the parking lot. Your gas cap. Your gas cap. Now, what happens when I got something in my teeth? Everybody's just gonna ignore me. What the heck? I thought you were helping me out. I thought everybody said yeah because you can't correct somebody. That's rude. You can't correct somebody's looks. That's rude. Right. We say it's the
Zandra Polard 13:17
way. It's the way they correct The policeman,
Stuart Kosh 13:22
yes, like you said, the Nourse is more
Zandra Polard 13:24
empathetic, or you know, the way she would maybe, or they would maybe explain something in the correction, whereas the policeman archetype would be more of a direct, be more direct, yeah, okay,
Stuart Kosh 13:40
rigid and and lots of very rigid boundaries with the policeman, and a very life or death scenario associated with crossing those boundaries. Right? You know, the the policeman's always going to give you the slippery slope. Well, if you run out of gas and you could be on a dangerous road all by yourself, and then you get sexually assaulted, and then man, and then and then you kill yourself. What? I just ran out of gas. What are you talking about? The nurse, the nurse has. So the
Zandra Polard 14:11
Karen of society is the policeman.
Stuart Kosh 14:14
Yeah.
Zandra Polard 14:14
Okay.
Stuart Kosh 14:15
Yeah, that's a that's a maladaptive nurse right there. She's running around on the phone trying to call the police all the time. Yeah, yeah. She's trying to correct things. She's like, "Hey, this ain't right. This guy's walking his dog with no leash. Oh no, no, no, man. No, no, no. This a this a black man with a white baby? No, no, no, no. Something is wrong here. We got white man with a black baby. Okay, he did something. All right,
Zandra Polard 14:39
still
Stuart Kosh 14:40
altruistic. Okay, anyway,
Zandra Polard 14:42
should we mention that you are also a comedian?
Stuart Kosh 14:44
Yeah. So don't you know people can people can get very maybe offended with some of this stuff that I say because it's very direct. And I myself really struggle with type A personality stuff where I'm schizotypal and and schizoid means. That I say things that are you know very odd and and and I and and maybe come off as combative and I also say this I grew up in Zaire Kinshasa New Delhi India and I came to the states when I was eight
Zandra Polard 15:12
yes army
Stuart Kosh 15:13
and the marine background too so yeah I'm a little weird
Zandra Polard 15:17
so what got you to write this book was it based off of, you know, what you see in sessions with your patients? But then, what was the piece that you noticed about yourself? So, since that is the answer to the question, what made you settle down and say, "Hey, I can identify with what I'm hearing"
Stuart Kosh 15:41
Yeah. So what happened was I was working as a substance use disorder therapist. Yeah, which is what I am now, and I had the whole because the the place I was working was so bad, and they don't even exist anymore. They sold it because they were losing so much money from this place. Uh oh. Um, it was so bad. I was the only therapist
Zandra Polard 16:06
for the whole
Stuart Kosh 16:07
rehab. Had a
Zandra Polard 16:08
heavy caseload. Okay,
Stuart Kosh 16:10
everybody. But that means I got to really, really, really see everybody's point of view. And after a while, I was like, hold on a second. There seems to be a pattern, and I noticed there was this guy. He would come into my office. He's like, I got a million dollars to play with. I'm like, oh man, this guy, right? And he was always messing with these women and trying to help people, but really, he's correcting them, and they would file restraining orders on him. What's do with all these women? Like, oh yeah. And then there was this other gentleman that he would beef with, that wore combat boots, wife beaters, was a punk rocker, and they both would go toe to toe with fatalism and egoism. They were both the same guy. One guy would wear the combat boots to show you he's gonna kick your teeth in if you say something wrong to him, and then the other guy wears the patagonian to say, "Yeah, I got it together. I can help you out. But really, that's correction. There's there's strict boundaries with with associating with the policemen. Now the nurse has no boundaries. That's what's so interesting about the the difference between the nurse and the policeman. So the nurse secretly burns out with resentment.
Zandra Polard 17:33
Yes.
Stuart Kosh 17:34
Because over time she's no longer caring for herself, and she's allowing people not to have any boundaries and walk all over her, there needs to be some kind of,
Zandra Polard 17:46
or she just explodes and curses you out. That's
Stuart Kosh 17:49
exactly that's what it builds, builds, builds, builds, and eventually you have to set that boundary, that rigid, that rigid boundary, almost almost flip flop into the becoming a policeman,
Zandra Polard 18:01
right
Stuart Kosh 18:02
now when the nurse and the policeman get together, oh my lord, it is it seems like a great idea.
Zandra Polard 18:12
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That might be good, but okay, explain.
Stuart Kosh 18:16
It seems like a great idea, but if if both the policeman and the nurse are not integrated versions of themselves. Then, when the policeman and the nurse find each other, it looks like destiny: two helpers, two givers, two people who get it. Ah, right, I finally get it. Someone find it from the outside. This parent appears noble, Selfless, purpose-driven, they admire each other's stamina. They speak the same language of sacrifice, duty, and endurance. They bond over exhaustion, over stories of saving others, over being the ones who show up when no one else will. At first, it feels like completion. Finally, someone who understands the weight, but what they are actually sharing is not intimacy. It is over functioning.
Zandra Polard 19:06
Oh, okay.
Stuart Kosh 19:08
And then both believe love is proven through labor. Both equate care with control.
Zandra Polard 19:14
Both
Stuart Kosh 19:14
struggle to receive, and neither knows how to rest without guilt.
Zandra Polard 19:21
Oh, wow! I'm
Stuart Kosh 19:21
gonna stop reading. This is my book, and so I'm gonna stop it because a lot of you ever procrastinate?
Zandra Polard 19:27
Not really, not really.
Stuart Kosh 19:29
It's fascinating, right? But have you ever procrastinated before?
Zandra Polard 19:34
Of course, yes. But I'm not a procrastinator,
Stuart Kosh 19:38
and that's a that's a that's a fascinating revelation because the and explain. Because what I'm going to say is, I'm going to explain the the drive behind procrastination.
Zandra Polard 19:48
Okay, is
Stuart Kosh 19:49
it's fear. Fear is the the motivator for these individuals. They're motivated by fear. So when they get closer to the deadline, they're motivated. Goes up, you see. There's a there's a not an inverse here, but there's actually a positive relationship. As this individual gets more afraid, they become more motivated. So they become more motivated as they get closer to that to that deadline. This is not functional. So what if I do things ahead of
Zandra Polard 20:21
time? What if I do things ahead of time? I'm just driven by fear or what?
Stuart Kosh 20:26
Yeah, it might. But see, hold the hold the thing. This this individual, you can say that okay, to do to motivate ourselves through love, right, might resolve that that procrastination because now you're not putting it off out of fear. You're like, hold on a second. I want to get my teeth into this thing. I really want to. I want to give this a good go because I love what I do, right? Okay. And then, yeah, what you're saying in the being incentivized by guilt and fear, you could get things done all you know. Be be not a procrastinator, but again, are we incentivized by guilt? It sounds like it may be because when people call you, their goal is to get you feeling guilty, so you give.
Zandra Polard 21:11
Yeah,
Stuart Kosh 21:12
and the reality is that we have to turn inward this care for others to ourselves and be our own loving parent and figure out how to adopt this compassion, you know, for ourselves and the way that we talk to ourselves, so that we don't burn out, so that we don't become that person that we hate. Yeah,
Zandra Polard 21:33
you have the this workbook, which
Stuart Kosh 21:37
yes, I
Zandra Polard 21:38
really need so that we can have a discussion on some some things or some ways to work through situations. You know, yeah.
Stuart Kosh 21:47
So here, here, go ahead, go ahead.
Zandra Polard 21:49
Tell us more about the workbook.
Stuart Kosh 21:50
All right, man. So, so the workbook here is. Excuse me. I'll take a little drink of water. So, I think a lot of people are familiar with the 12 steps. Well, I'm a postmodern guy, like I said. You know, I'm a consumer. I'll give it to you in six.
Zandra Polard 22:09
Okay.
Stuart Kosh 22:10
You don't got to do all 12. We're just gonna do six of these. Okay. Okay. So
Zandra Polard 22:16
this
Stuart Kosh 22:17
is how we're gonna break the formula. Okay. The workbook is designed to take you through and integrate. The goal is not to eliminate these tendencies, but to recognize them and integrate healthier responses.
Zandra Polard 22:31
Okay.
Stuart Kosh 22:32
Because everybody says it, don't do this no more. Don't do this no more. Don't do this no more. What are you going to do then? You're telling me what not to do. It's a big book of no. I'm going to tell you what to do, right? Yeah, here. So we're gonna answer the following questions honestly, because the step one is identifying your narrative. We're gonna find out what you said. Where do you where do you sit? Are you the altruist, the egoist, the the fatalist, or the anomic? Where are you at, right? And I got some of these. I got some of these questions, reflection questions here. Here's one of them: is when I feel overwhelmed. I usually respond by taking control and fixing things. That's a policeman seeking recognition or validation. That's a settlement. Withdrawal and isolation. That's the nomic. Feeling trapped or powerless. That's a sadist, right? But my answer
Zandra Polard 23:15
would be it depends on how I feel that day or what's already happened or like how do I answer that?
Stuart Kosh 23:22
Well, yeah. Then it goes. Well, you could, you could, you know. When I feel overwhelmed, I usually, I usually respond by. So it's kind of just like, what's the usual response when we're feeling burnt out, right? Now, when something goes wrong in my life, my first thought is usually, I should have prevented this. People don't appreciate what I do. People cannot be trusted? Nothing ever works out for me, right? So these are going to be some kind of I call on Jesus. Well, you might feel like, hey, you might feel like people cannot be trusted in if we need to look at our Lord and Savior, right? And we can't be guided by by by man Him say you know because of the corruption and whatnot. Yeah, you might need a higher power, and that's really fascinating, right? That this is the the the the spiritual spiritual healing is the foundation of of 12 steps. They believe that you suffering with suffering with allergy of the body, obsession of the mind, coupled with a spiritual malady, allergy the body. You drink it. Oh my God, I'm I'm a drunk. Obsession of the mind. That's all I'm going to do. I'm going to keep drinking, right? And spiritual malady. It's hopeless.
Zandra Polard 24:30
Okay.
Stuart Kosh 24:30
All right. And then so then we get down here and we find we we we get to our primary we get to our narrative, right? Because that's our first step. We got to identify the narrative. That's the first step. Now, step two: identify your archetype, and that's what you were saying about the policeman, the nurse, the salesman, the actress, the rock star, and the single parent, and then the phantom and the orphan. The
Zandra Polard 24:54
rock star gets on my nerves. So, if you get this book,
Stuart Kosh 24:58
yeah, tell us the name of the
Zandra Polard 24:59
book. Again, the four, the
Stuart Kosh 25:01
four narratives overcoming self-destruction in a post-postmodern world.
Zandra Polard 25:07
That rock star is like a very familiar person in my life. And yeah, I can't stand that archetype. Anyhow,
Stuart Kosh 25:17
you know, but that's funny because you're the nurse,
Zandra Polard 25:21
yes,
Stuart Kosh 25:22
right. So it would make sense that a rock star pairs with a nurse. They do, because the the rock stars, you know, laissez faire, you know, come as they go, do what they want, live by the the seat of their pants, and then there's you who's gonna put up with it, put up with it, put up with it, put up with it. I don't like the
Zandra Polard 25:49
risk factor of the archetype, you know, because it jeopardizes everyone,
Stuart Kosh 25:55
right?
Zandra Polard 25:56
Yeah, and so you know, for our listeners who may seem a little confused about all these archetypes we're talking about, the book can be found where Stu.
Stuart Kosh 26:05
Amazon. It's a bunch of these wherever online books are sold. Really,
Zandra Polard 26:09
okay, selling
Stuart Kosh 26:10
everything. I saw someone told me my book was $1,400, and I was like, "What? And it was in like yen. So they're selling these things in Japan. You know what I'm saying?
Zandra Polard 26:19
All right. Well, Stewart, no, because I call you Stu, but it is by Stewart. Gosh,
Stuart Kosh 26:27
yes, ACSW.
Zandra Polard 26:28
And you must come back after I've worked in my workbook, and then we can get into this even further.
Stuart Kosh 26:36
Yeah, for sure. I mean, talk about next time. We maybe talk about the rock star and the single parent.
Zandra Polard 26:43
Okay, I'm down. Well, thank you once again for coming on the show and explaining your wonderful book, The Four. What is
Stuart Kosh 26:54
it? Narrative. The Four Narratives. A lot to go over. I know. Well, I'm not looking at it. I'm sorry.
Zandra Polard 27:00
I've
Zandra Polard 27:00
not retained the title, "The Four Narratives, by Stuart Kosh, to be found in everywhere. All right, so thank you, Zandra Polard here. The show is "It's Where I Am, every second Sunday of the month at 8:30 a.m. Have a wonderful day, guys. Talk to you next time. Bye bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai