BONUS: Unpolished Conversation on Season 1

Show Notes

What did you think? Anita Wing Lee and Dr. James Tyler Robertson reflect on the highlights from Episodes 1 to 11 of Season 1 and talk about what's next for this Heavenly Minded Earthly Good.

What is Heavenly Minded Earthly Good?

Anita Wing Lee has spent a decade as content creator -- blogging, filming, snapping, live streaming, editing and publishing her way around the world. Since the age of 21, she's told stories from dozens of countries, confronted inequality and injustice, shared her spiritual journey, and aspired to be a voice for good.

But behind the Instagram and YouTube videos, there was something she never talked about: God had let her down.

A supernatural encounter in 2017 forced her to stop traveling, demolished her fledgling career, and left her with no option but to come back to Toronto where she found herself working at church.

When she enrolled in a Master's of divinity at Tyndale University, she wasn't trying to become holy or a pastor.

It was just unfinished business.

They call it deconstruction. She calls it seeking the truth. This is her story.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 00:00
Well hello listeners and welcome to this bonus episode. This is unpolished set free from the constraints of the timer. This is Anita Wing Lee and myself Dr. James Tyler Robertson. And we're going to unpack Season One of heavenly minded earthly good. And Anita Wing Lee's deconstruction. And I must tell you listeners right off the bat that we have begun this recording with a Anita spilling water on the couch. very disheartening. Welcome to Anita to the final unpolished of season one.

Anita Wing Lee 00:38
Yay. Thank you so much for listening and for going on this journey with us. Man, what a what a trip. To put this out into green squiggly lines, which is what is which is what it looks like to me, most of the time, and to you, it just looks like sound in your in your hurt, or comes out a sound in your headphones. Let's take some time. And we're going to we're going to unpack more of the finale, Episode 11, where you heard from my mom, and then we're gonna get into some of the individual episodes and wrap this season up.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 01:19
Sounds like a wonderful and surprisingly polished way of going about this, even though this is the great, unpolished. So I want to agree with Anita listeners, thank you so much, not just for listening and making the podcast quote unquote successful as a word we'll return to a little bit later on as we parse out what that word actually means. But you know what all the conversations I've had, via social media, in the hallways at Tyndale phone calls, so deeply appreciated to, to hear the different ways or as Anita would say, to see through your ears, the different the different ways in which heavenly minded with a good season one impacted you. That's been really wonderful. And stay tuned for the end of this. So we're going to talk about some future endeavors in the heavenly minded, earthly good realm. But before we do that, and Anita, I'm going to switch the tables on you, you have been. And I must say, I want to start with an acclamation and an affirmation, I guess I should say, you've been very raw, very honest, very candid with your journey. And on behalf of myself and listeners, I want to start off by saying thank you. This is a conversation we had in the early days, about you just being open and honest. And I think in doing that you've created a brave space for people to unpack their own struggles. So having said that, I'm not going to turn the tables on you. And you've been so great at sharing your stuff, but also interviewing other people. Let's unpack this final episode, because I gotta figure a lot of the listeners are coming in from Episode 11, where you interviewed your mom. And it was so touching, and I'm still so moved by that. I'm actually I'm weirdly emotional now knowing that this is the last episode. So yeah, I'm weirdly emotional listeners. Anita, you may see slash hear me cry. Let's see what goes on. But let's begin with your mom. So I guess for myself, as we're looking at reflecting on Episode 11, what's your relationship with your mom like now, as you and I are talking in this moment?

Anita Wing Lee 03:19
So I spoke to my mom, last night, we video call a couple of times a week. Well, my mom has her own fan club. I like to tell her as a children's pastor, she's still very much like a child at heart. And so she's very easy to talk to Ha ha. Now she's easy to talk to. And so I have a really great relationship with her and we do very much have a back and forth. Something I didn't get to share in the podcast is that as soon as I got the job at catch the fire, and I found out it was a controversial church. People started asking me Oh, what do your parents think of as my parents? My mom is the pastor in the Christian and Missionary Alliance. And some other denominations have looked at the Toronto Blessing is like this weird phenomenon that you should stay away from and that it's from the devil. And so surprisingly, my parents were nonchalant about the fact that I ended up at the weird church. I think they were just happy that I was at a church. And so and so my my parents and what was interesting is, during the time I started working at catch the fire, my mom's own denomination, started incorporating more teachings about the Holy Spirit and the supernatural. And, and so I thought it was very interesting how I was on this journey, rediscovering God and the Holy Spirit and my mom in her own church, completely apart from anything I did was also learning about the Holy Spirit. And so right out of the gate, I saw that God had my mom and my parents on their own spiritual journey. And, and he was lining things up in their own way in his own way. My mom actually is also studying with the Chinese theological school that's housed inside some inside Tyndale. So fun fact, we're gonna graduate at about the same time, which is, which will be this this spring or summer. And so we've been studying for four years together at the same time. So she's very much been on her own journey. And so sometimes we'll have theological discussions about things, but most of the time, honestly, she's just my mom, she tells me to stay warm and make soup for me and, you know, tries to give me life advice. That apparently never stops even when you become an adult.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 05:47
And fun fact, for the listeners, recently, I actually met a need as mom. Now were you to put me in a room with 1000 other people I would have known it was a neat his mom the moment she walked into the room, because she is just as sweet and lovely in person as came through in Episode 11. And remember, when she walked in the room, we were at a conference and Anita was on the other side of the room, I was sitting near the back, and this woman walked in, I was like, well, that's not a neat as mom that's needed from the future time traveling has come back into this room. So she is sweet and lovely. And it's really exciting because she was on campus studying right. She was studying for something in her own degree. Yeah,

Anita Wing Lee 06:26
I was at Tyndale for an event and she came along with me we carpooled so she could write her dissertation in the library. That's fantastic.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 06:33
You know, the I liked the point that you brought up when he got hired by catch the fire, and pause for a second here for a shout out to catch the fire because they could have gone and perhaps been a lot more guarded. Given that of course, they know about their own somewhat, quote, unquote, controversial history. But as Tara Jean Stevens found out when she interviewed for her, her podcasts have invent the leadership, they're proved to be very gracious, very open, very willing to communicate about their history, about their theology, their beliefs. So kudos to catch the fire for dealing with that. But you also brought up another point about that whole idea of like, Oh, they're the weird church, or the like, literally people accusing them and what was going on there being from the devil. Now I'd fall into the camp of it's definitely not my experience with Christianity, but to throw that that devil moniker around so loosely. And so. In best, it's irresponsible. At worst, it's Antichrist. And I think this this might form a segue into this, you know, episode by episode look at what we call deconstruction, which is a great word, we need to we need to hold on to that word, but also not be chained to that word because you yourself have expressed the the numerous varieties of ways that this journey has so far beyond deconstruction, but deconstruction gives us that good word into it. So are you okay, if we just sort of jump into a few episodes because actually, something about episode 11 reminded me of episode one. And perhaps this can be a somewhat polished segue into our episode by episode, what do you think?

Anita Wing Lee 08:07
Let's do it. We, we've been at this a few times now. So sometimes, it's harder for us to let things be messy.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 08:15
I think you're gonna reveal that we actually had a conversation about what we're doing right now, ahead of time. No, totally unpolished. All right. So let's look, let's go back to Episode One, we're gonna reverse engineer this. We're gonna Tarantino this and, you know, start at the end and work our way back to the beginning in the middle. But trust us listeners, there's a story arc that's happening even in this unpolished. So episode, one was called The Art of throwing rocks at God, and not to dismiss other titles, but I thought this was a really good title. And I know, I need to work really hard on the titles, probably two hearts, I might say, but it's all been rewarded, and the art of throwing rocks that God was really, really important. But something about the episode 11, wrapping it up, conjured to mind, something that Dr. Patrick Franklin said, when we were discussing theology, and we'll come back to this again, when we unpack I think it's episode four. But his his explanation of theology is a lot of people looking at it as like this. They're here's the answer. This is the doctrine. This is the formula I believe he uses, like the idea of a mathematical formula, but not understanding that theology is this sort of end result of these conversations, these ideas, these, these deconstructions that are so rich in the experience and the context that to just boil them down to like, here's the sentence or the paragraph, or as you get me to a test, the 800 page book does a tremendous disservice. It makes it somewhat less vibrant and less relevant in life. What are some of your thoughts like now that you're kind of going through this journey? How is your understanding of theology changed?

Anita Wing Lee 09:54
Yeah, so I guess this answer is going to wrap in a couple of episodes because Let's talk about that good. Kind. Rich had some painter, that that's the best analogy I have right now. Because I think we all maybe you've had that feeling of you meet someone who's just like you're they're so precious to you. Or maybe you longed to meet someone like that. But I think that feeling of and then Dr. Victor Shepherd uses that analogy with his wife, right? Like, I can describe someone, you know, and I, there's even a book written about Jesus. And I know this is gonna sound so cliche when I say, but do you actually know the person of Jesus. And, and, and that's how I think of it. Now it's this, I'm not going to say that it's a loving relationship, I'm going to say it's like an entire universe, right? It's like, there's someone at the center of the universe whose mind and heart is so brilliant and so good, and so loving that, you know, I could spend my whole life trying to understand it. And there's a Christian word for that worship, apparently. But, you know, to stick with this analogy, it's like, there's this whole universe. And there's something at the center of it. That's so beautiful, that just keeps drawing me to it. But I can also like, exist in this universe. And this universe involves people. It involves events of my life and involves knowledge that comes in books, but it involves human experience and evolves nature and involves our it involves food, right? It's like, it really is like this huge paradigm shift. It's like, you know, maybe you're we're living in a snow globe, and we think our world is one way, but one day someone like, cracks it open and fills it with a completely different kind of oxygen. And suddenly, all the plants that you thought were weeds are actually like flowers that bear amazing food, like your your whole universe is completely reoriented. And so that's the closest, or maybe it's like Narnia, right? I found the word job to Narnia. And, and, another, I'm just going to keep using this pain or analogy for a little bit. It's like when you meet someone like that, it actually does change your world, you start to realize, oh, I lived so much of my life in fear, because I didn't have a sense of security. But now I have this sense of security. Because I know someone who's genuinely looking out for me, and whose whose love for other people and for me is so much bigger. And I just want to be a part of that world. And like, you know, that's why people want want to get married. And so this. So those are all metaphors and analogy for how I think of Christianity. And so the idea of trying to distill Christianity or theology down to like, you know, these sentences in the Bible, or this creed, or like, this is how you should dress at church. Those might be tiny threads in this universe, but the whole thing is so much more alive. And so that's why I found it quite fun. One of the things to put together into this podcast is to show you that like, it wasn't just that I'm studying at Tyndale and, and doing a Masters of divinity. It's also that, like, I worked in a church, and there was this whole universe that came with that. But then there was this whole series of events that happened when with my life when I came back to Toronto. And then before that, there was this whole series of events. It's like this multi layered universe that keeps unfolding and keeps getting better. And anyone who plays video games, or watches TV shows and gets sucked in and starts binge watching, like, you understand why you stay on the couch, and your eyes are fixed on the screen, because something good is happening here that you want to keep being a part of. And I kind of feel like that's, you know, to put Christian language on it, it's something like if I keep fixing my eyes, on Jesus and on and and then this, this universe that now we call the Christian faith of Christianity, you know, but it's really about Jesus or about God, then then the rest of the world around me changes. And that's the way I have to put it now.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 14:10
So that, that is a lot of theology. And I love and that's the other part that Dr. Franklin is talking about. It's these conversations around it. But I loved what both Dr. Franklin was talking about the throwing the rocks at God, and sort of breaking down that that blasphemous idea of what sorry, the definition of what a blasphemous relationship with God would be like is that you can't question can't do this stuff. Definitely can't throw rocks. But then I love Dr. Shepards analogy of just speaking about his wife, as very easy I can, I can list attributes, but I know her in exactly the place that I am different, because I know her and sentences like that deserve to be in more theology books and frankly, as a historian they are it's how people interpret them and use them Over time that gets watered down and sort of turned into well, as we segue into the second episode, one of my favorite historians just in his content and his name, Yaroslav Pelican has this great style statement, it says tradition is the living faith of the dead. traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. And that gets us into Episode Two, the invisible grief and the hidden trauma, because there's your

Anita Wing Lee 15:29
my computer and I was the person who was like, we need to mute our computer so we don't get the ding that happens. When an email comes in,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 15:37
I will just say this Vinda Kasia done. All right, so visible grade level nine, that's proof positive that this is unpolished, for sure. So that's maybe it's traditionalism, we don't want to sort of, you know, kick the church or badmouth the church. Frankly, it's just a little bit boring, because a lot of people do. But maybe it's traditionalism churches that are invested in the traditionalism in the this is what you have to be. This is what we have done, has produced a lot of trauma. And a lot of people who were raised in that, frankly, invested in that, and understood the world because of those teachings and then encountered enough cognitive dissonance or enough struggles where what they've been taught didn't line up, that it creates a trauma, and sort of walking through that. So that that other episode, where you got into talking with Lindsey Thompson, and Lindsey, Lindsey is a friend and just I'm so proud of her and all the all the times you've spoken this in the season, this giving space for you to unpack some of your grief and your trauma. And for me, that seems to be one of the major threads throughout this whole season. Is you recognizing that, addressing it, looking at it really and then moving through that? Do you see like theology and this journey through some trauma? Is that part of the deconstruction thing, just people becoming disillusioned? And how can you possibly wake up once their illusion gets broken? Especially when it's something like the church? What are your thoughts on that?

Anita Wing Lee 17:03
Yeah, absolutely. I think, as the culture, we don't know how to sit with tough emotions, or painful emotions or difficult ones. And actually, there's a lot of neuroscience and psychology books that talk about even like our dopamine culture now, right instant gratification, like we're constantly looking for that. And so we don't know how to sit through when something hurts. And so it even took me like three years, even even now at this point in my program, I've read just registered for the last course of my M div. I am a real student at Tyndale. And I decided to pick complicated grief. And I was like, this is kind of a sideway anticlimactic way to end my M div. But it's probably going to be very fitting, because I'm sure I have suffered through some or I am processing through some form of complicated grief. And, for me, deconstruction is almost another way of saying, We some like you, we I have some kind of grief towards God. And Christianity has like the culture that in what in the West has developed around it does not leave us any space, to express our grief towards God. And it was actually a little snippet. In a Bible picture dictionary I have I had to, we were studying through the Old Testament, I actually wanted to include this in the podcast, but it didn't fit in, in any episode, to keep them from being like an hour and a half long. And so I'm writing this paper for Old Testament theology. And I'm, we're reading about like Jeremiah, Lamentations, these books that are just like people pouring out their heart to God. So upset, very confessional. And so I go, and I'm reading about this little description of what Lamentations is, and the author of this Bible Dictionary, like I can still see where it is on the page, because I read it like 10 times and highlight it and told my class about it. He wrote about a theology of the heart, and that God cares about our emotions, and that He wants us to pour out our emotions to him and that he actually invited the Israelites. The first time you're hearing about Israelites, and heavenly minded earthly good isn't the very end. He actually got actually invited and wanted the Israelites to like stay in the wilderness and experience their own grief and their own sense of loss that happened. When God wasn't with them. They needed to live through that emotion so that the hope and the joy that they found in God was real. And so as I read that, and I came to understand that God actually cares about how I feel and he wants to hear how I feel, right and then through Sandra hunt, my spiritual director, she named grief and I just started realizing that I'm allowed to have Emotions and I have them very vividly as an Enneagram, type four and type seven. And it, it really set me free to just be myself and to process my emotions and to go through that journey with God. It never happened all at once. It wasn't like one day I was like, I'm so upset at God and I just cried and bawled my eyes out. And it was great. No, it was genuinely like this three to four year process that you heard about in this podcast, tiny moments where something would hit me and then I'd sit there and be like, God, like, I'm angry, like, I'm disappointed and, and I journal or I talk to someone or Sonya Tetley, my neighbor would come in or I'd talk to Sandra Hunter, I talk to friends or I'd read books over and over again, I'd probably say this happen 1000s of times to the point where where I can talk about it on a podcast and not feel like I'm gonna go home and cry like I might have a happy cry after this, but not a sad cry from from from the grief and from the trauma.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 21:03
And I'd like to end one of the episodes here to Dr. Know, Dr. Helen, no. And actually, this quote is in our our title sequence, too. And she does talk about the full orbed the full scope of the human experience. And I think it's so important for us to never forget that, that anybody who is deconstructing or going through these things, it is not, as you say, in the title and the title of this of the season. It's not just an intellectual pursuit, it encompasses all aspects of our humanity, our bodies, our minds, our emotions, our lived experiences. And I love it. I'd love you, right, it's time to bring in the Israelites because I mean, Israel, the word itself means wrestles or struggles with God. And that's what I love about the Hebrew Scriptures, is they canonized, they made sacred, the wrestling with God. And I love this, the very earthy, spiritual wisdom in that is that if you're mad at God, if you're sad at God, if you're railing at God, you're lamenting against God, well, then, you know, you're in the presence of God. That's the only time you know, if you're actually angry at God, you're in the presence of God. And if that's the case, then where you are right now is the most sacred place you can be none of us should be ever wearing shoes, when we're when we're mad at God, because we're on sacred ground. And that is such a powerful part that you're right that if in the Christian church, or the the traditionalism that we have, if there's not the space to be upset, that's akin to saying, there's no space in this faith tradition for you to actually be engaging with God, a living deity, who understands disappointment, who, as we hear in later episodes, walks with you, cries with you, suffers with you. And there is a rich tradition within Christianity, of all those things, great mystical leaders, men and women who speak candidly and openly of their experience of suffering, bringing them so close to God. And as we get into this idea of spiritual but not religious, which coincidentally, is the title for episode three. Just anecdotally, for myself, I was in a profound personal and spiritual crisis years ago. And it was like I was wide open, like, like a shotgun blast to the stomach like that. I just felt absolutely wide open Ron and pain. And we were driving liberal in the country. And it was driving, it was a beautiful day, it was near sunset, it's dusk. And it was just so hurt. And simultaneously, so at peace, because I was praying so deeply. This is another thing that your mom said that really resonated with me and actually made me tear up a bit was when she was so desperate and scared for you. She also felt the closest to God, and what a blessing it is. And as a parent, that's a hard thing to say like, Oh, my child is in danger. What a blessing. And for me, it was personal. Excuse me, I'm getting a little emotional. The I remember actually praying this out loud. I remember asking guys, like, don't let this end too soon. Because I love where I am right now. That was a genuine prayer. And you're one of six people to hear me actually say that. And depending on how many listeners are in now, everybody knows that. But it's true. That was one of the truest prayers I ever prayed. And that brings us again to this spiritual non religious, which brings in my dear friends, Sarah, welcome to the Flom and Kevin Bacon's, and I love Sarah's take on one. She's just so much fun. She's so smart. She's so engaging. She's great to talk about this sort of stuff. She's one of the great academic friends that I'm happy to call a friend. And I love what she brought in with this idea of the spiritual but not religious and the different ethics and worldviews that have proven to be not only a counter to the Christian to some Christian narratives, but also in many ways in which we're seeing reflected in the lack of people going to church considered superior. So it's anything about what Sarah said like about their ethics around LGBTQ plus around a whole variety of moral vices, immigration, you know, alcohol, like the idea that people are set free when they don't go to church that you know, the old adage, I was blind, but now I see applies to people leaving the church and they feel people going in are blind. Was that ever part of your views on this?

Anita Wing Lee 25:21
This one is so funny, because now I feel like, oh, now I'm one of those crazy people. Like I go to church voluntarily like, man, I've even got them to agree. Like, I cannot prove to anyone that I'm not a Christian. I've got a podcast, I keep talking about Christianity. What about what do I do if I want to hang out with like, my spiritual friends? We didn't know one of whom I was just speaking on the phone with today. And personally, I would say that you like what one of the things that has set me free is like Jesus not come here to make us Christian. Jesus was not quote unquote, Christian and Christian is not, you know, getting a getting a master's degree becoming a pastor and going to church and taking getting baptized and wearing your Jesus cross. Like, that is not what it means to be a Christian.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 26:17
Oh, man. That was

Anita Wing Lee 26:19
the podcast in 16. Words, sorry, you had to listen to 11 episodes to get there. But no, I think I think there's something really beautiful that there are people in this world now that are exploring Christian spirituality. And they don't want some of the traditionalism that comes from Christianity, but they're clearly looking for something. And because of my journey, I do have a lot of compassion for that for those people, because I was one of those people. And a part of me still is one of those people I've mentioned throughout this podcast, like I don't think of it as deconstruction because I think of it as like, I am a spiritual seeker who's on this journey of discovering the truth, living in the goodness, the beauty and the holiness of what it means to be alive. And for me right now, the Christian faith in the way it explains the world. It's drawing me closer to the truth. Do I think I have the definitive religious or spiritual truth in my head or in my heart right now? Of course not. Because it's evolved and changed so much. And I think if people are genuinely living out their spiritual faith, in a some kind of higher power. This is another topic we didn't get to include. But maybe we'll talk about in season two, we'll talk about that later.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 27:40
You weren't supposed to talk about season two yet.

Anita Wing Lee 27:43
But it's world religions, right. And it's all these other spiritual paths. So I, when people get really strung up on like, Oh, are you in? Are you Oh, does it fit? Like, you know, can you go to yoga, if you're a Christian, we're not going to get into that right now. But these are, these are things that I feel that as I walk on this journey with God, He gives me like the day by day, week, by week, year by year discernment for what I feel like is his heart. And I did do a lot, I did write papers, I did take a course on world religions, that whole other topic, I didn't get to fit into this episode. But that was one of the things that actually gave me a lot of peace, that God is working in people who are on quote, unquote, spiritual journeys. And God is also working in the lives of people who are religious, religious, and extremely devout about it. And I am somewhere in the middle, I probably lean a little bit more on the like, spiritual seeker side, but obviously, I've gotten like a degree now. That would make it really easy for me to call me a this is a weird thing to say, like a professional Christian. But honestly, I'm, I'm just a person that's after the good, the beautiful and the holy, and God has placed me in a, in a faith that we call the Christian faith, and I'm okay, walking along and along it because I'm finding more of what is good and beautiful and holy.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 29:13
And I mean, this first half of the season was sort of, like we said, opening up the tabs. And the second half, you kind of started finding some landing places, but I found Kevin Bacon's what he said about Hello, Kevin. I think we see that in the second half and just in the conversations that you know, I've had is this idea of? Yeah, you can get the doctrine can hear the stories and we have to be honest, Christianity is a wild story, it seems very unlikely, very implausible. nevermind the fact that it is one of the foundations of Western society for sure. But the idea that a Jewish peasant 2000 years ago, was summarily executed and murdered by an oppressive regime that no longer exists somehow in hex, whether or not I should go to that movie, or do yoga is wild and weird until you walk it. And I liked it, Kevin really sort of opened me up. He's like, there's a sense of like, you can get the doctrines, but that's all you're gonna get. You can get the arguments. But that's all you got to get until you start actually walking with Jesus. Because there's a good point, the church is going to be lame, compared to the quote unquote, distractions of the world, we're not going to do it as well. And that's something we need to embrace. And I have a wonderful friend, her name is Paula. And we're in a small group that is much more akin to a church and a small group. And she said something when she was sort of explaining one of the conversations we had to somebody outside and she's like, you know, I can give you the words. But unless you're there, I can't really share the story. And I love that you can have the words, but what you really need is the story. And speaking of stories, here's a good segue. The nerd in me, oh, I apologize listener, if you can hear the very low cars that are going around, going on around us. I need an hour sitting in traffic doing this. When theology meets Marvel, you inspired the comic book nerd in me in this multiverse of madness, how did you demystify theologies, you're starting to kind of get into the second half. And do this one, because we got I want to get to Episode Five, really,

Anita Wing Lee 31:15
now I have a confession to make. So I need to keep, we'll keep this quick. I have not into the MCU, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I have not watched

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 31:26
most of those movies. heavenly minded earthly good will no longer be here to listen to this is over.

Anita Wing Lee 31:33
But I used that analogy, because I know people who are into it. And for them, it really is a universe. And that's why even earlier I mentioned I'm like Christianity is like this huge universe. And clearly we humans have this appetite for universes other than our own. And, and we look for heroes, and we look for salvation, and we look for miracles. And we look for superpowers. And why do we do that? Well, there's also, you know, there's the MCU. And there's also, the Bible has some really weird stuff that happens in it. And there's also a big global fan club for the Bible. And so and so theology, for me, seeing it as like the rules of the universe has really set me free, like there, I still sometimes will open up books, or I think back to that course, I'm like, I simplified all of my theological education into this phrase, the rules of the universe, what are the rules of the universe? What are the rules of the Christian universe? And one big thing I learned in, in my studies is that there are people that can take one thread, so let's just say even Jesus is the Son of God, like, there are 1000s and 1000s. You know, maybe Dr. Robertson can say like, 10s of 1000s. There's so many people who have deconstructed that one sentence in written books upon books up and lots of theories and theologies about how to make sense of Jesus as a son of God, or how do you make sense of the Holy Spirit? Or how do you make sense of the Trinity. And you can go down these really deep rabbit holes trying to sort that out. Or you can create a podcast about your story, trying to sort it out. And so I think, when it's time for me to go into those deep ends and sort those things out, I will. But I've also come to realize, and one of the things that was freeing about studying in seminary was just realizing like, I'm never going to make it through all of those 800 page books, some people are called to. And they'll read all of those thinkers that go back in all that time. And like Dr. Robertson is one of those people who's kind of delicate, dedicated his life to teaching and exploring some of that the history of Christianity. But even if I was like, I just want to know this, I'd want to get to the bottom of this. Even if I did it every single day until I was at, I still wouldn't get to the bottom of it. And so realizing, for me that God is going to lead me to what I need to know. He's going to call me to become a student and to learn things and humble me in different ways, when there are certain things that I need to learn. And then another times when I don't know the whole picture, when I'm like, I'm not really sure if the sun is gonna rise tomorrow, but I'm like, 99% Sure, that's okay. You know, and I'm not, like, am I 100 100% sure that Jesus is the Son of God. And maybe I should be careful about what I say here. But like, do I really know that the sun is gonna rise? Well, like it to me, it's one of those like, How much is it about my certainty and how much it is? Is it about my quote unquote, faith? And how am I going to live? And what allows me to live the most meaningful, good giving life? Is it like, sitting on the 1% fear that the sun won't rise? Sitting on the 1% fear that like God, Jesus might not be the Son of God, and maybe I'm really fooled and I'm just like, I wasted a year of my life. I don't know, maybe not. But apparently, everyone else thinks the sun is gonna rise. And there's a good couple billion people on earth that thinks Jesus is the Son of God. And some of those people are crazy, and some are not. But like, God calls each of us and pulls different strings. And, and we all understand the MCU slightly differently. But we're, we're all on this journey of being called deeper into the story. And so personally, I've just chosen to spend a little bit more time in the Jesus universe and in the MCU.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 35:32
I'm not gonna say anything on that. You guys, everybody ready for me to blow your mind? The sun doesn't actually rise. We rotate to face it and see it more. And I think that is actually that's, that's me being a little sciency for you. It's always nice when a social scientist can be actual scientist. But I think actually, that communicates a different point. Our understandings of Jesus are they make sense, the sun will rise. Yep, that makes sense. We can all agree with that, when of course that's actually not an accurate description of what's happening it's the earth will rotate. And, and I think that actually unpack some of our understandings and hopefully brings us to a little bit of humility, but our own understandings of Jesus will be true. Ish. True, adjacent, not harmfully, wrong, all that sort of stuff, and hopefully invites us into these deeper understandings, which again, I can't stress this enough, can be what deconstruction is, for those who stay in the church, for those who leave the church. For those who find other paths. These are really good conversations to have as long as we're having them in loving and supporting ways. And I know that sounds a little pie in the sky. But one of the things I've noticed as I've listened over this is I say, Oh, I love this a lot, or I love that a lot. And at first I felt bad. I'm like I'm cheapening the word love. But then I was like, actually, no, I just have a very love filled life. And so I don't think this pie in the sky stuff is pie in the sky. I actually think it's very rooted in what Jesus was always talking about what the great Christians have always been talking about this thing is about love, and love can't help it produce freedom, healing, protection, et cetera, et cetera, on and on becomes this beautiful space, as long as we don't come out of that, like you said, in that 1% of fear than anybody. Questioning or having helped them walking like you are into a different spot becomes immediately a threat, an outsider, a foreigner. And I mean, one of the great descriptions in the book of Revelation of the New Jerusalem is a city without any gates, because it doesn't need to be protected. It's wide open, it's always protected. There's no force that can come against it. And that brings us into a really important part of traditionalism. And this was inspired by my my most chronologically enduring friend Lisa, I'm not allowed to call her my oldest friend, she finds that offensive to both herself and myself. And she will be offended on my behalf. But my dear friend, Lisa, whom I've known since we were knee high to a grasshopper, I called her up during the pandemic, and she's like, Hang on, I'll call you back I just added, and I don't remember what it's called. It was like a dry shampoo. And she was doing something with her hair. And I was like, what is that she's like, Oh, this is something I add to my life to add to the crushing weight of being a woman. And I mean, I laugh, but it's like one of those. Oh, and it was just so quick, and it's very much speaks about her personality. But this episode five, and I find episode five and Episode Six, for me personally, are some hinge episodes that are taking on some very heavy issues and simultaneously finding some landing spaces by addressing these. And that's all I'm gonna say. So, your thoughts on you know, the weight of a woman and then let's, let's go into the interview with Tara Jean Stevens.

Anita Wing Lee 38:57
So, it's fitting that you, you call this a heavy issue, because I think what helps me navigate now being being a Christian woman, that's a weird thing for me to say. But anyways, what has kept me in walking in this path or what I like to say hanging out in Christian circles, hanging out with the kingdom people on my journey into the light is that I don't feel that heaviness and I don't feel that weight anymore. There was times when I did and I would be really annoyed and sometimes at all things will happen you know, news will come out about someone or something. Names will not be named here but and sometimes there are things that make me angry or a walk into situations and and you can see instantly see the advantage that being a man usually a white man has in a situation. But this podcast and some of the stories I've shared here have been and really solid in my face examples of God telling me, look, I've got this in Nida. It is not on you to pave the way for all women in the world, I am really grateful that I am studying and working with an institution that acknowledges women in leadership. And same thing, I just so happen to end up in a church that acknowledges couples and leadership, which I've it isn't doesn't happen everywhere. Even my own mom, she only became an ordained minister in the last couple of years because her denomination finally allowed it, but she was a pastor for almost 20 years. So you know, this is not an old issue, this is something that's still currently evolving. And sometimes, you know, things will come up that will get under my skin, or you hear comments that other people will make to other of my, like, female Christian friends, you're just like, oh, men like that, or people like that still exists. And it makes me want to vomit a little and, you know, move to another country. But thankfully, and I would call this a grace of God, like I don't feel that heaviness anymore, and the way that I live day to day, I'm really grateful that God has put good mentors and good leaders in my life. And I trust that in God's own way. If that he will keep building me up and building my character, and training me to be a leader in the world, if that's what he wants, or, you know, continue to be a voice and media if he wants. And so, it is a weight, though, and I want I did this that particular episode to acknowledge that there are other issues that women also face that maybe we'll explore that I hope we will, we will explore in the future. But if you're a female, and you're listening to this, and you know exactly what I'm talking about, you know, that feeling of like walking into a church, and like, there is no, there's like so little acknowledgement of, or maybe you even just feel there's like this invisible spiritual burden that you carry. I really invite you there's some amazing books. There's one called Jesus feminist, it's a pretty quick read that helped me and once I read two or three of those, I felt like God was just like, I got this, like, you don't need to carry this wait, there's other women and men in the world who are doing their part to, to remind us that we are like, number one, first and foremost, we are all equal as children of God. And, and so yeah, I invite you if this is something that you face, to read books to explore, to figure out where you stand on this issue. And and then to have compassion on people. If you're a man listening to this, I invite you to think about if God is calling you to, to help the weak and the marginalized. I'm not saying all women are weak, but you know what I mean, right? People who have to suffer more and carry your carry heavy burdens, heavier burdens than others, like we should all be doing that. So there are times where I do feel God tells me to speak up and stand up and do things to pave the way for other women, older or younger than me. Because because I am not afraid to speak. So this is something we are all called to be as people of God.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 43:27
I loved. Dr. Beth Greene, Dr. Marilyn Draper, Dr. Beth Greene is my boss. And so I can speak from personal experience what it what a great leader, she is this, this is gonna sound like brown nosing. But it's not meant to be. But what a great leader she is how intelligent, capable, strong and engaging and aware of a lot of stuff and the things that she put into that episode. And then Dr. Marilyn Draper's, that wonderful arc she did in this episode, talking about the women in God's story, and just reminding us that the male perspective is or what we might call today. Now, the patriarchy is the backdrop of the Bible. But it is not the message of the Bible. And the women being included in that cannot be overlooked, especially in this day and age. But this applies to all days and all ages. We just have no say over over the past can do. But speaking of which, the if you want a good historical look at that there's a book called Daughters of the church. And it's a great survey of women who have been influencing Christianity because spoiler alert, women have been influencing the development of Christianity from the get go in case you forgot the first ones to witness the resurrection. And the beginning of this thing we call Christianity where drumroll please women in Jesus ministry and that is the segue into Episode Six with the dear Prophet tests. Tara Jean Stevens cannot recommend excuse me, haven't been enough as a three season podcast currently whenever you wasn't in essence, it's three seasons right now. And it is fantastic. Because it is fair, it is funny. It is well researched, and she's graded the job and then just her own willingness to share her story from a place of profound grace and mercy to talk about how much she misses the church culture in which she was raised. But again, that the power of this cognitive dissonance, the idea of like what she was raised in, versus what she experienced, at some point, did not line up. And when I've said, so many times, what I want my history classes to do is to allow people the space to look at it, but also recognize those who are concerned about who were quote unquote, losing in the church. Remember the movie Titanic, you know, a ship can take on a lot of water. But when the guy is describing, like, he's got the blueprints out there, it's like when the water it gets over this wall, and then when the water gets over that wall, that's it. There's no stopping it. And no one person says, Well, surely the Titanic can't sink. And he's like, Oh, it's made out of metal. I can guarantee you it will sink. And that's that cognitive dissonance. And it's not one thing may not even be 20 things. But it's enough things enough experience. And more importantly, being in a community that gives you space to have these questions that can sometimes you change your mind and then leave. Sometimes you leave. And then the new people that come into your life help you reform what you were thinking before. Both of those have their have their merits. So listen to Tara Jean Stevens, this incredible broadcaster and switching up the the format of that episode, I thought was really, really powerful, letting her speak very, very clearly. Because that's another thing we didn't want to do on this podcast was put words in other people's mouths. We want you have space to do your journey, but also let other people explain their thoughts on these issues. And Tara Jean Stevens, eloquently and beautifully and powerfully communicated her own journey. And she's wonderful. And I'm very happy to call her her friend.

Anita Wing Lee 46:56
Yeah, this interview with Tara jeans is so precious. And I'm so glad we we included her in this. And I think her voice is really important because I can really relate to her. And I understand like you heard in the story of her trauma is way more severe than what I experienced. And we know from headlines these days, there are people that experience like really, are really, really hurt by the church, or people who lead churches, which you probably say that because it's ultimately the humans and it's not the entire body of Christ. Because even I can think of there were there were good people in my church, and even when there were things that I processed as her. And so I hope this, this particular interview just invites us all and reminds us all to have compassion for people on their journey wherever they are, you know, if you have friends who were Christian and seem like they're departing, and it can be easy to freak out. But you're probably better off just being a loving presence and a listening ear in their journey, because I probably did this the wrong way where I just cut off all of my Christian friends from that chapter. So as of now even like from high school onwards, I haven't kept in touch with any of those people. And that's probably something I could do something about for another chapter of my life. But that was the only way I knew how I didn't feel like I could speak to anyone about it. And but if you're able to sustain a friendship with that person, like it could be decades, it could be never, and I don't even want to use the term like when they come back to Christianity, I think God is still guiding them. I know that when I left the church, I could see on the outside that it looked like I was being rebellious. But in my heart, I was genuinely looking for the truth. And I genuinely felt that the version of the truth I had been taught in my Christian Church was not the whole truth, and I needed to go find it. And I thought I'd find it at Hillsong and that door closed. So I started looking for it, you know, on mountains in Hawaii and elsewhere. But Tara Jean Stevens and anyone who's on that journey, like when I look at how Jesus would walk with them, as Helen Noah says in the last ones, like Jesus just weeps with them, like he sees their pain, we might not see their pain, but I am 1,000% Convinced that anyone who steps out who was a part of a a, you know, loving ish Christian community and chooses to step out, it's, it's not just there's something that happens and and maybe they'll never talk about it and they just need to they need a lot of time to process it. Now or maybe they'll figure it out in like, three, four months or three years and, and then they'll have a fresh love for Jesus. We just don't know or maybe they'll like the journey of life is so long and you even heard from my mom, and my parents actually have lots of stories of this being passed. pastors have like, we just don't know where God is leading people. But I am 1,000% convinced that God is still with those people, even if they don't call him God, they're still finding enough hope in life to keep loving. So that's something. And if anything, they just deserve our compassion and our prayers, and our love, just like everyone else. And just like you and me.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 50:24
And just like people who never deconstruct, everybody's just deserving prayer, love, grace, mercy, all those things, if only Jesus had talked about those in multiple different ways through multiple different stories, and maybe if he just actually embodied it somehow on some very grand scale, like, oh, I don't know, My Crucifixion or something. Yeah, he's, he's pretty powerful. I'm pretty clear about that. If only had given us some more commandments, oh, wait, he did. What was it? judge one another? No, as a loved one another. Yeah, that was always fun. All right. So episode seven for the love of idols, or the other title side hustles and the idols of success, two titles that I needed, could not quite get rid of, because she liked them both so much. Oh, my goodness, this, this keeps developing this, yeah, that the one that always sticks out for me. And this one is, there's two things, Jessie refusing to exploit you for the advantage of the program, and giving you again, a brave space just to be who you are. But also the painful self revelation that you wanted to be bigger, shinier, so that people would love you. And I think for me, personally, this was the episode where you were hitting the landing spaces. And it was like, that's the big one. It has nothing to do with digital content, podcasts, blogs, Instagram, social media, etc, etc, etc. That can all be, that's fine. That's just a tool. It was you being set free from? Well, I think in the in the shownotes, you say like workaholism, but it's just a deep insecurity, that unless you're producing something, unless you're showing a literal facade of fake face out there, then you actually have no merit. And this, uh, Anita is a Nita Wang Li, there is no real Anita that matters. And this is the first and most painful step because especially in the West, we are all so much we judge ourselves so much on what we can produce and how quote unquote, successful we can become. And how many people know our names are, how up in the field they are. And then of course, there's also people and this is gonna be a tricky one, because there's also people like, what a good parent they are. And that one's really, really tricky to sort of untangle this, like, what is going on here? What is this external validation that we are all craving, and this was the episodes that have put me back on my heels of being hyper productive and having it be a reward? And and recognizing is like, No, I am. I'm good, just where I am. It was the beautiful Henry now and who said, your only name is beloved, that's it. There's no need to wing Lee. There's no James Tyler Robertson, your name is Beloved, this is the name in the book of life. And I thought that was so powerful because it's so simple. And it came from his own struggles to recognize no matter what I do, no matter how much I accomplished would all be the letters before and after my name. What, when a tome my tombstone could be it could be a big obelisk is eight feet tall to list all my accomplishments. At the end of the day, when God looks at you and says, Beloved, all other titles, all other quote, unquote, accomplishments just fade away. Having said that, it'd be nice to go to Guatemala.

Anita Wing Lee 53:40
Yeah, right, the danger of going to Guatemala and going on vacation, and like, do you Instagram later? Not now.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 53:47
Oh, we should mention that this episode is sponsored by the Tourism Board of Guatemala. So maybe saying the danger of Guatemala is not something I sponsored, like, just kidding. We have no sponsors, other than Tyndale University, just to be learning.

Anita Wing Lee 54:00
This episode is a long time coming. I think I always had a hunch with what I was doing putting myself online, but like I started blogging when I was 21. And, and it was a way to process and it was a way to find community. It did a lot of things that met like real psychological and emotional needs I had, but it came with this dark side of like, well, then you can believe that that's who you are. That becomes a real part of your identity and the world that we live in now. It is really quite messed up sometimes. And I have had to think about this a lot because obviously, I still work in digital content. So I still work in this universe that is about Well, I was going to say projections but I'd like to believe that there's something real in this broadcast. It's not just a projection. So I think what's an important for for each of us and what I hope you got from this episode is, is this reminder that it's very easy to take something and make it the center of your life. And, and in this episode, that word idols, I just felt like, oh my goodness, I've been hearing about golden calves and idols since I was like four years old, and I'm only getting it now. But it meant so much more because I really saw it. And it was one of those moments where like a platitude of Christianity of like, you know, you should only be worshipping God. It became real, because I saw how if I didn't have something or someone like Jesus, or God at the center, absolute center of my life, I would pick other things and I have picked other things. And it's not that those other things like social media or fitness, or relationships, it's not that those things are bad. But when they are the center of your life, we start withering away. I really, I often remind myself of the analogy, like we think we are these like amazing, strong plants. And so let me put like multivitamins in me, let me put like the best productivity hacks and read the latest New York Times bestseller, and I'm going to become this super plant and bear super fruit. And then I'm going to get the super award and get a promotion and on we go. But really, I'm a pea plant. And I will fall I'm sorry. Like snow peas, okay, like beans.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 56:32
I did not see us going in that direction. Okay, continue sorry. Like

Anita Wing Lee 56:37
gardening here, people. I am like a thin plant that if I don't have a string to climb up on, I will fall down. And, and there's no shame in admitting that like the world tells us we gotta be strong, we gotta be independent. And I believe that and I lived like that. But it's actually the safest place for me is admitting that I am weak. And that I'm going to fall off, I'm going to fall down, over and over again. Unless I build my life. Unless like a plant that climbs a vine, I climb up and up on the strongest string or pole I know, which is Jesus, which is a life based on Jesus's love and a life transformed by Jesus. Do I know where it's going to lead? No, because again, I'm only in my early 30s. But I do know that. Like, I look ahead to what, what is in front of me. And if I and I, and something in me just tells me that that's a better way to live. And so this was a decision point. This episode was like chronicling that invisible decision point two because like, even Jesse didn't see it. He was the one in the call. But it was me looking at my own two hands. And being like, oh, like, this is what I've done. It really is. Sometimes it really is that simple. You really are straight up following God or not. And so, yeah, I finally admitted it to myself. And that's that really did start to set me free. It didn't, it took, I'm still on a journey of learning what it looks like to live my life. And obviously I still work I still produce. But to do that in a way where I am living my life as the beloved. So and even as you said that Jamie, the word beloved, has been a theme for me for a number of years. And it just makes me ponder more of like, that is how I want to live my life because I if I don't, it's way too easy for me to go back to my Instagram profile and change my bio. But, but no, like God sees me as His child. And Jesus sees me as His redeemed and his beloved, and why do I even care what anyone on social media or why do I care what anyone thinks if the King of the universe sees me as his daughter?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 58:54
Well, there's so many deep psychological reasons why we care what other people think. But this is important to again, a good resource or good spiritual sort of time with this is to is is actually to read Henry Nolan's prodigal son is a beautiful one, looking at this picture of Rembrandt's painting of that, and that forms a backdrop for Henry now it's beautiful book, on the ability to wander away and come back and the graciousness of God and whether or not you're living like the beloved, I think that's the other big point that we can always sort of fall into is I want to live like the beloved and you just are beloved however you choose to live and that can be a scandalous thing for for a lot of us to sort of embrace because how far does that idea identity of beloved extend to whom does it extend? Is it people just like us people that think like us and it's lovely to walk? Listen, observe I'm just getting like front row seats to you unpacking this stuff and walking through this stuff and it and I love because it brings up so many questions my own life brings up so many questions like Yeah, but and and having to live out just in our friendship. Like, let Anita be and Anita see Christ and Anita which is the more important, the most important thing is to recognize that, that Christ dwells in you. And and has, as with all things Christ related has so much potential to teach and to grow, and to express love and vulnerability and to connect us as people. And I just want more people to recognize the rich history of literature, and lives live that express and communicate that because I think it would actually help a lot of people to heal from the trauma of within the church, within the church, whatever, recognizing that there is a profound disappointment for many of us, when we we get this unshakable sense that life should somehow be better. Now, a lot of the time that's very self centered, but not all the time. And like I said, even those who are quote, unquote, spiritual rivals, or foils, or enemies, if we want to use that word, offered to us, so many gifts, so much mercy, if we can recognize that when somebody we know is, is does not necessarily have our best life in store for us, the wisdom they give us, we can be like, Oh, okay, so that person who I know has these sorts of sensations, or beliefs about me, is counseling me to go this way, and try going the opposite way. And then all of a sudden, even even enemies, even rivals, even foils become so powerfully helpful and become the voice of God to us as well, that that actually gives us a space to say, Oh, now I see why Jesus says something as controversial as Love your enemies, not just because they contain the image of God. But there are people out there who are going to be against you who are going to be foils to you. But that does not mean that you shut them off. Enemies. And foils can be profoundly useful because you can almost go on but the opposite direction. And there that was God speaking to me as well. So even that church community you're growing up in, we none of us are just coming at things when we deconstruct and I think that's what a lot of people what we have to always remember it when you deconstruct you're not giving yourself a blank slate, you're taking down material, you're handed and you're ripping it down. And but you're still going to use that material, you'll grab other stuff as well. But you're still gonna use a lot of that material to build something new. So you are building on something that was there before, you're not going down to the foundation, you're not going down to the basic level, you're building something out, you maybe took down a couple floors, but that's really, really powerful. And that's really exciting. Because then again, those people that you were trying to get away from actually become a weird gift. And that is how to start healing, which is coincidentally the title for Episode Eight. How did I do that? And this one brings in two of my favorite people, Lindsey Thompson, and Sandra hunt, your spiritual director. But enough about that, let's move on to Episode Nine. Just kidding, all about

Anita Wing Lee 1:03:04
healing done,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:03:06
you're gonna hear Sorry, I'm going to talk over you're gonna hear a click, click in the background because I'm gonna turn on some lights because the sun's starting to set. It's getting dark.

Anita Wing Lee 1:03:13
We're starting to be sitting in the dark as we talk about this, how to start healing, you know, I was going to call this just like something about healing. But I was like, the reality is that everyone's healing journey takes so many routes, right? You heard a little bit of territory in Stephens healing journey. And there are so many different facets of this, I, I, I broke it down into a couple of things that were meaningful to me. But I think, you know, even my own big, big takeaway, you know, from a deconstruction journey, or a healing journey, I would say is give yourself time, because you don't even know what's inside do like I don't even know entirely everything that I processed. When I spoke to my spiritual director, Sandra huntable, you know, and it was really fascinating to listen to her name things what she picked up on in my journey, because I picked up on different things and other people have picked up on other things and books, highlight certain things, courses, highlight certain things, friends highlight certain things and, and I really do believe that every day of this journey has counted. Like I'll give you a an interesting example. In a number of the courses I had to take for my divinity degree. I thought they were totally useless and a waste of time and I just feel like like even that, you know, the paper about lamentations and Jeremiah I told you I was writing. But there was a moment when I was writing that where I just got like, hit with a thunderbolt of like, oh, this is speaking to me like this is healing a part of me. I was. I was doing this passage in Jeremiah five where God is challenging Jeremiah Ah, and I can't remember the exact verse that I did prepare this. I don't know it.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:05:04
Shame on you. No, this

Anita Wing Lee 1:05:07
podcast is not about shaming, we will cancel that Jesus, Dave. Wow. This is our last chance. And I remember it speaking directly to me because it was like about how, if you can't keep up with men, how can you keep up with horses, and I just felt God challenged me like, here you are. You're trying to race with men, you're trying to always like be better, faster, sharper than other people, not in like an explicitly competitive way. But it was an underlying it came from a deeper insecurity. And so I'm writing this paper, it's just about Old Testament theology, but God totally like, hit me in the heart with it and reminded me that, like, you need to try so hard and eat. Like, what Jamie was saying, like, why don't you just like, embrace the goodness of your life here. And so I invite you to give yourself time and to not rush. I just had the sense when I first came back here that I really felt like an ice cube that was thawing, but like not thawing. In a tropical on a tropical beach. I was like, in an ice cube. I just had so much hurt so much fear. So much like uncertainty, I had no idea. But all this god stuff, but God brought me back and like, Oh, great. Now I'm working in the institution that has traumatized me, which is a church. And so I just knew that it was going to take time, and that there were still good things here. And I was alive. And it was really like baby steps. So to get to a point here where I can talk about a lot of it with, like, clarity and with, with, with joy and with and laugh about things and reflect on things. That has been a long journey. And it's, and it's a good one. And so I I just Yeah, I would invite you to give yourself time, even if your parents or someone is hovering over your back and trying to be like, Well, why don't you just read this Timothy Keller book and sort yourself out? You know, you just got to read Rick Warren one more time, like, you know, just like memorize another 10 Bible verses like, you know, that doesn't work. I know, that doesn't work when you're in that space. So and Jesus knows, that doesn't work. And so, but I wouldn't, what I would invite you to do is not run away from your pain, and not drown it out by picking another addiction. And these are just words, but you know what that is for you. Like, I knew what that would be for me. And one of those would have been social media and just to keep producing and producing content for free. Because now I was getting paid for it at a job. And so it was really clear to me if I'm doing the same work I'm getting paid for. And then I'm going home and doing it again, like what are you doing in EDA? And so letting yourself undergo that process and obviously seeking help in different ways, whether it's spiritual direction, or therapy, or like, honestly, I started watching a therapy YouTube channel recently, and it's been so helpful. So like, look for resources. And, and there's no shame. There's no shame in being like, I need time to sort myself out. And this can't be rushed.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:08:21
You literally just pointed a finger and yelled at the word shame. Yeah, and this is great, because I love I love seeing generational differences between you and I, because I'm fabulously older than you are. Because there's parts of that that I that I don't agree with. And I think it's fantastic because there's a sense of again, I'm not right and you're not wrong. It's it's a different generational thing I would never look to technology to be the solution to what I'm doing. And I think there's there's some balance in that because Sandra Huntington as we point out in the episode two, if you get the opportunity to be part to be with a spiritual director, do it wherever you going to end up, have that place to unpack that's that is more akin to a counselor than just a quote unquote church friend or something along those lines. And for me that the drive is always like community is so important. Community is everything who you surround yourself with will become a large part of your identity and surrounding yourself. With people who are invested in you invested in who you are now who you're going to be tomorrow and who you were yesterday is just everything. And the idea of doing a YouTube do you say counselor or psychologist or it's a therapy

Anita Wing Lee 1:09:34
YouTube channel therapy. Thank you see, she gives you these amazing,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:09:38
I'm sure you're right. I am absolutely sure you'd like you're

Anita Wing Lee 1:09:41
listening to a podcast.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:09:44
I'm well aware of my own hypocrisy in this moment. And I don't mean that as like a facetious way or anything like that. I genuinely mean it's so fun to be Gen X talking to what are you a millennial? I know you're a millennial. I love it because there's differences there. There's And it's just, it just boils down to life experience and when you were born, so I don't put any more stock in it than that. But it is it is a fun way to sort of look at like, Who are these conversations for what is going on here. And one of the things I've been most excited about is that heavenly minded earthly good. I've heard from people, we were talking about this before, that I would not have expected would one listen to this, and two would benefit from this. And so I'm a historian, time periods, epochs, generations, all this sort of stuff does play with worldviews and understandings. And I love it, and I'm open for it. And I mean, I belong to the slacker generation. So there's always a sense that we are never going to do anything. And then people dump all over the millennials, and whoever's after the millennials now is a Gen Z, Gen Z. Yeah. And that's not fair. And it, they're always going to do something different than the people that came before. That is part of it, that is going to sound like a broken record. That is what we're talking about. When you talk about deconstructing. It's not just faith, obviously, we're taking the faithful faith focus, but it's taking the inherited stuff that your parents or elders gave to you, and saying, okay, but also living the world that in the life that you want to live and say like, that doesn't work and having take that off, and it's incumbent upon those of us who are older, to have faith like your mom did, and be worried and be nervous, but also say, Listen, you've got to go and find this for yourself, because what's going to come back will be more authentic will actually be you. And some of its going to be like very reassuring for your mom. And some of it's going to be very concerning. That's okay, at the end of the day, you're not you're an adult, you're not responsible to her anymore, you get to be your own person. But there's this this beautiful humility that I saw on that last episode with your mom, too. She's like, I've got things I can learn from you. And that's it. And that's exactly it. It's not that the older or wiser, the older have more experience. And when we're wrong, we're probably rooted a little bit more in some wisdom. But that's, that requires a nuance, because those who have had less life experiences, and that's all I really can talk, chalk it up to, because I know lots of people hold on to me, and I'm like, who don't know that go to that person for him for advice. But there's things that can be learned from you, because there's a bravery. There's a willingness, there's a versatility that is increasingly leaving me, but through my friendship with you, I get access to so YouTube counseling might be a thing. However, if you can get it just talk with Lindsay Thompson, or Helen No, or a Sandra hunt. I think you're going to be great there. And again, what I think a podcast can do because one, it's not physical. It's odd. It's audible. Blowing people's minds right now, this isn't just learning. This is just hearing is maybe it gives us space for you to find other people, not like minded people, but other people that are invested in searching for the truth like you're talking about. And again, the spoiler is you're not going to find the truth, you're gonna find a truth and the more people you collect around you that are willing to be humble enough like that, you're gonna have bigger pieces of truth. Again, that's something that a lot of Christians are very concerned about. There's gonna be some real power in that there's gonna be some real wisdom in that from experiences that you personally as an individual don't have to collect. So thank you I love whenever we have a set amount like ah, I don't know, because that's what's made this podcast so amazing. And then it leads us to what could have been the most controversial and who knows whoever's listening out there and maybe it is the most controversial nine and then episode 10 Because we are rolling out and we don't want to keep people forever but the house on a hill whoo Anita that could I started this off as like oh where's she going with this and by the end of it is like oh, she went to a good place. So the house this beautiful relationship with Sonya Kevin reiterating this idea of walking the path and I just have to personally say thank you for the amazing things that you've baked for me that I'm able to you are quite good at it and it is quite a gift and and convicted me about my own lack of hospitality.

Anita Wing Lee 1:14:09
The muffins were real people have actually eaten those muffins.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:14:14
That's what we should have called this podcast. The muffins were real. Oh,

Anita Wing Lee 1:14:18
that would have been good, but I really needed to get that song. That song just like haunts me if you haven't listened to the song go look up house on a hill by Amanda cook.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:14:28
I thought you're talking about the song muffins are real. So now for the rest of today I'll have the Muffin Man song stuck in my head. And for those of you who are listening to this that also well, I deeply apologize.

Anita Wing Lee 1:14:38
This is this episode chronicles a really fun chapter of the last few years where I genuinely watched myself change. It was like I had that conversation with Jesse. And I was like, Oh man, I'm a crappy person. I should put Jesus at the center of my life. And now what happens and and instantly God had already been like, wow, next chapter. are like, okay, next location starts now. And so I come back from Guatemala and I'm in this house. And it is not a hut on a beach. It is not a treehouse in Costa Rica. It is a proper little suburban home you know with drywall and heating and plumbing and, and, and that part of me that used to idolize living on a beach or being this digital nomad it God was like, Look, how about I know what's best for you? And how about you just stay here and live and figure out what it means to find your joy in me and following me and not all these material things. And by the way, just live in this house for now. So it was really because of that house that I challenged, that I was challenged to think about, okay, what is, you know, an adult ish Anita life going to be because I was also entering my 30s. And so I really have spent any of my close friends know, like, since I was 29, I've been actively thinking about what it means to turn 30. And what does it mean? What is adulting will say mean to an EDA, like, it's no if if the way I was living in my 20s is pretty clear. It was like, hey, follow your dreams go after your passions, like, work really hard. All of that kind of led in this weird journey that is captured in this podcast. I was like, Okay, I need a new strategy for living. And, number one, I don't have much on this list. But number one is Jesus is at the center. That's about all I've got. Now what? And then I did what Lindsey Thompson said, I like starting to integrate, what does it mean to integrate the parts of me that I do want to keep? Because God isn't just like erasing the part of Anita that likes to travel that has that did experience really meaningful things. God, God doesn't like delete those parts of Anita and just as like, Okay, now 30 year old, I need to start now. Go. He's like, no, there are parts of you. That's how I may do. But what is the more mature version of that look like? Or the more hopefully spiritually mature version of that, and Anita, how does she live and so the thing that just started coming up was generosity, and it was just founded in my own experience of, of living on so little and being so happy and like, being frustrated with the experience. Sorry. Dr. Robertson was bugging me. Or teasing me about how I say frustrated, so I just said frustrated. I just said it. I don't know how I said it. But

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:17:31
yeah, okay. One I take issue with it wasn't bugging you or teasing you about it. I just didn't notice because you were talking about I said these words funny. And I said when you say frustrated, you don't say how are you supposed to say it frustrated? Like the FR you just blow past here? It's no big deal.

Anita Wing Lee 1:17:45
It was because of that frustration. You're making me sound like a jerk. No, it's fine. That's our comical interlude for you. If you're still listening, thanks for sticking around. And, and I just knew so I just I just pulled that thread. I started with muffins and it just kept snowballing and snowballing and snowballing and and now that's just this, this thing that I'm still on this journey. There are some amazing books written about Christianity, R n and generosity and what that means in this world and radical hospitality. Jessie Sudhir Graham, Hi, my program director has like is now starting courses that Tyndale about radical hospitality. And by the time you listen to this, you can go and see how what that has evolved, evolved into, but generosity and hospitality might not be the exact values in Christianity or in Jesus, that resonate with you. Maybe it's about mercy, maybe it's about caring for the sick and the hurting. Maybe it's about fostering kids. Maybe it's about you know, overseas, I don't I'm not going to use that word. Maybe it's about like working in other countries. Like I, what I would have really what I hope that people get from this is that it's actually okay to unpack what Christianity as a way of life means to you. Like, what does living fully and faithfully as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus mean to you? And it's okay that it looks like something different. Honestly, if I had gotten to pick I, you know, I'm when I was 12. I, I liked Florence Nightingale and I'm, I might be in Thailand working at an orphanage right now. But instead I'm I'm here a digital content creator who also bakes muffins and, and is on this journey of learning to live generously with God. And so it's okay to take that to take that timeout and to process and to talk to people and explore what it means to you and, and that's what I did and that's why I'm still around because I actually found a landing place for my mind for my heart just in my world, right if I'm going to be Canadian, and I'm going to live here. What does that mean? Then what does following Jesus look like to me, I don't believe that right now I'm called to like, drop everything and, and go do something else. I'm feel that God is calling me to like, keep just day by day seeing where he leads this journey. And so sometimes that includes houses and muffins that conclude all kinds of things. But it could also not include all kinds of things. But I think what's more important is that I have this sense of peace and clarity. And me now knowing that one, I know what it looks like, feels like and sounds like when God is telling me to do something. And he's leading me in a direction and he's giving me the passion to do it. And, and for me, that's enough certainty that I need to keep going.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:20:45
Well, then we get into the episode 10. And we were talking about this before, and it's just, it's so fascinating. And it was so much fun for me to know what I was going through. And the you know, the goals, ambitions, desires, the calling the the polls and the tugs. And then, to have that part where you said, you just came out and you just kind of like this whole idea of the entrepreneurship sort of lit you up. And then that nine months waiting that nine months, and then I felt like, I mean, this in the best sense, I felt like a pawn in your story. And I mean that in the best sense, because that's, that's, I mean, at the end of the day, that's pretty good, because it's not a pawn for you. It's a pawn in this bigger story that obviously transcends you and myself. And in this whole deconstruction, I think one of the things that deconstruction can actually hoppers is, is hopefully an increased sense of wonder. And dare I say it magic in the world. There's so much about and this goes all the way back to Episode One with with Dr. Franklin saying, if you've just locked into the sentences of the formula, you're gonna miss the magic and the wonder, and the and the surprise of a providential private presence bringing you to something hilariously weird, and easily forgettable, and not grandiose or amazing for some people will be, but for the 99.9% of us, easily forgotten, if ever seen in the first place, overlooked or misunderstood tomorrow for Malcolm Gladwell. And you, lo and behold, it ends up being this sort of sacred moment of like, today was the first day err sort or heard this idea, it was like, funny because I, that timeline for you was all about that. And no, go back to your Marvel Universe thing. And then it's like, this feels like this other timeline, obviously, the timeline of my own journey, which I'm much more aware of, and then you just sort of see the Bloop. And having you tell sort of like, here's the, the coalescing, here's the email, I remember the day was like, Okay, I'm gonna fire this off and see if that happens. And then now we've obviously turned it into this meaning, to borrow from the words of Lindsey Thompson, we found we've described this meaning to it. And for me, this is this is a big part of this is we're all meaning creating creatures. And some of us find the meaning is best when we remove ourselves from these Christian structures, you have found, or finding and have found meaning within a sort of newer understanding of it. And then for me to listen to this and hear a different meaning of like, oh, that's kind of funny. This, this whole thing that we're trying to do, has as much if not more to do with you than it does with me. And that's, I mean, like, it was most wonderful place to just kind of feel like a sacred pawn and be so touched, humbled and honored to be a small part of that. So that was a, that was a cool episode. That was a cool moment for me personally, and I hope, I hope the podcast has given cool moments like that for other people, if for nothing, no other reason that at least you can listen to somebody else's story and be like, alright, and start thinking on how they can start telling their own stories of deconstruction, of faithfulness in a whole variety of ways and, and start creating their own narratives. So that's to you listener, that is your big homework is start embracing these narratives of your life with God. Walking away from the church, wherever you end up, making shoes, making Instagram, making content making lunches, muffins, making making muffins it's, it's this for me is the point of the show why it's titled this is like heavenly minded and earthly good. These things are not mutually exclusive. This all is together and we didn't know that this is where this story is gonna go because you are a human being SPOILER ALERT have I'm really dropping the the profound bombs right now. But you're a human being and human beings are profoundly unpredictable and did not know how much your life and maybe this is in the back of your mind as you edited and created this stuff, but how much your life was going to reflect this whole idea of heavenly minded earthly good. It's not just about like You said getting to some other universe some other what we call heaven or the kingdom or anything like that. It is profoundly becoming aware of the fact that the kingdom is so alive here. And there's much earthly good to be done. And we see God. So clearly, as you stated so beautifully in the sky, and the trees in the dirt in the people around us and all these different things. So I really found in this episode, there's this great sort of sense of that. It's not that the heavenly Spirit is guiding, you know, the earthly stuff, that they're somehow disconnected

1:25:34
that this is all part of God's plan. dairies head,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:25:40
I don't know. Yeah, as we get to the end, I get a little bit more philosophical and weird.

Anita Wing Lee 1:25:47
This is it like there are, when I was living this journey, I did not know that one day I would get to, or be able to weave it all together into something like this podcast that would make it kind of coherent, right, each of each of these little moments were like, honestly, moments, an hour or two or 20 minutes, or maybe at most, like three days, you know, a muffin project would maybe take me three or four days, and then it would pass. And then I get on to the next thing. This has really left me with a sense, like God is working in all those details. You know, just God, God is working in details from 15 years ago in my life that are still being played out now. And the life that I live now and the things I'm working on. Now, this is not the end game, or even like, the way that Christianity makes sense to me. Now, this is not the end game, there's still so much more to learn so much more to grow into, there's more people to meet more things to make more muffins to give, like, who knows. And for me, I've just come to see that having Jesus as a part of that life, and not just as a partner, but like, as a pillar. It's a really good thing to have in my life. And I feel very comforted knowing that, like there are people who are also crazy enough to put Jesus at the center of their life. And it doesn't mean that everything is going to work out, it doesn't mean I'll be some like super successful business person, or, like, we just don't know how things are going to play out. But what we do know that we're all going to die. And what I do know is that if I devote my life or I give my life to Jesus, and I let him take control, so far, he has proven himself to be so much better at creating a beautiful meaning Phil says sacrificial giving life, he's a way better at doing that than I can. And so that's why I'm still here.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:27:52
Fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I think what got me into this was, I'll be honest, like a fear of hell. And in the past few years, the question of who goes to heaven, who goes to hell has become the least interesting thing about the face to me. So in our last few minutes, what are you know, of our last few minutes for a reverse season, any sort of last tips, tricks, tools that you want the listeners to listen to, before we, we wrap it up, and again, like Anita said earlier, thank you for listening, if you still are, we're at an hour and a half. So let's really wrap this up. In a couple of minutes. Most of our notes, we've been covered. So I think that's pretty good.

Anita Wing Lee 1:28:32
We did have notes for this one. I think, I think growing and self awareness is the best thing that you can do for yourself, or, you know, alongside that growing and God awareness, which will help you grow and self awareness because the practical things I could give you, that have helped me, you know, things like journaling, or learning to take care of yourself, it all boils down to knowing how God made you and what it actually means for you to thrive. I think what's clear to me is like, God doesn't expect me to pour myself out at a rate where I'm gonna burn out in three years and, and then it'll take me five years to recover. God doesn't. God knows how you're created. And only he knows the exact ways that you are perfect and whole, and beautifully and fearfully and wonderfully made, had to throw that in there. But only He knows the exact ways that you were also broken. Right? I can name things in this podcast has named some of the different ways that we do get broken, whether it's through our families through church, psychological cognitive blindspots, but only God knows the exact ways that you're broken and I and I believe that if you let him and if you give yourself that time, he will show you inhale slowly heal you and or, you know, or put you back together again or reshape you like there's so many different analogies. Find the one that works for you. And Let yourself go through that process, I think it would be the saddest thing for us to, or this is what I did. I was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna figure out the best life for me. And I'm gonna go try and make it happen by sheer will and, and through all the first world resources, right let me get every app, every book every digital course every degree, every coach, but that's not going to work. And we can only do that to a certain point. So if anything, I feel like God would just invite you on this journey, live your own version of discovering what heavenly minded earthly good looks like in your life, and you're probably already living in your own version of heavenly minded earthly good. So explore it, dive into it, like chronicle it if you want. But let it be as sacred as I hope this podcast has meant to you.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:31:00
Cool, and get an education, get educated. I mean, I was so happy to hear about the frustrating 800 page books. And the frustrating Why am I studying this, this is pointless Oh, listeners, it's such an important part to get into that frustrating community of education to be challenged and to have all sorts of stuff pushed into your face. And and yeah, a vast majority of it, you may never use. But there is a discipline there, there's a bit of ability to critically think, and to move past just one that you're just going through this, which is what this whole park has been about is you're not alone. But you're also not alone. In the fact that you happen to be alive right now. There's people who've come before you that have provided profound wisdom, and guidance and, and insights. And there's people around who have dedicated their lives to learning a very small section of reality in order to find the best and most active ways to communicate that to. And third, it sort of brings us I don't even know if I said a second phone, whatever we'll say third, third, it does bring us out of this. What I see is just like the epitome of individualism as you do you and I do me and Nanda does, like there is something more to this because as need as powerfully demonstrated, this. God journey is not just about you, it ends up being about way more than you ever expected it to be. And it's so good. Of course, we all know that head knowledge is not sufficient. But that's that's not what we're talking about. It's not just head knowledge. But it's about gaining the wisdom that other people can offer you people that are dedicated to this, and will challenge you to do things that you may not do on your own and wouldn't do unless you had to. But that is a powerful humility, that will bless you, benefit you and grow you this whole podcast hasn't been about, Oh, thank goodness, I need ended up at Tyndale and now she has an M div. And now everything's gonna make sense. Of course not. But it was a thread in there. It was a core in there that that move this thing along. And so continue to educate yourself, know the world, know thyself. And in that you're going to learn so much more about God. So now that you're almost at this MDF, what are you gonna do with this M div, now that you are a master of divinity, and master the cosmos, a master of all things divine?

Anita Wing Lee 1:33:29
Well, now that I figured out that everything, that I don't need to be a pastor to serve God. And now that I have figured out that I don't need to do all the typical Christian things, hmm, maybe I'll just, I don't know, make a podcast make

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:33:46
a podcast. Or maybe there we see it a web series who knows who knows the sky's the limit.

Anita Wing Lee 1:33:56
So if you are listening to this, we do hope that you enjoyed this podcast. If you made it all the way to the final minutes of season one of heavenly minded earthly good and you found it something meaningful and you want to help us share it, tell your friends about it, share the links. You can find out more about Tyndale University, obviously at Tyndale dossier, but you can also help us out by leaving or leaving a review on your favorite podcasting platform. Whether that's Apple podcasts or google play wherever you listen, um, leave us a review or find us on Instagram. I'm at any knowingly PS.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:34:33
I think James Taylor Robertson, I should have answered. He's bad at Instagram.

Anita Wing Lee 1:34:40
For now, but those are ways you can find us and leave us comments. We'd love to hear from you.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:34:46
And stay tuned in the winter of 2023 You're gonna get what we're going to call this season bonus season.

1:34:53
Would you want to call like a season one and a half? Yes, season

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:34:57
bonus season 1.5 Alpha Omega. Nope, we'll just say bonus season 1.5

Anita Wing Lee 1:35:05
We are going to be releasing some of the full interviews with our special guests this season. So you've heard from guests every single episode and we obviously didn't include the entire interview. I often couldn't even include a quarter of the full interview but these were amazing conversations I got to have with some mentors leaders in my life some of people who've been meaningful and Dr. Robertson's life so we're going to be releasing the full episodes or sorry, the full interviews so that you can hear those and and learn from all of their insights as well. Those will be coming out in the next couple weeks slash months.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:35:42
We'll say winter 2023 And then for another timeline. Drumroll please. In the fall, also of 2023 Hang on a sec. Let me do this better. In a world known as fall 2023 questions will be raised adventures will take place as we welcome back heavenly minded earthly good season to the reckoning title to be decided. But I just felt like the record though. That sounded good. Right.

Anita Wing Lee 1:36:14
The recording sounded pretty good. We went through the reckoning

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:36:16
who will spell with like a W at the beginning. Yeah, the recognizing, oh, you get it?

Anita Wing Lee 1:36:23
Yes, like a wrecking ball. Yeah, we're gonna be unpacking a new topics. And now that we've gotten my story, I believe we can get into some of some of the there there was an entire list of things that I wanted to bring into this that didn't make the cut. And we're going to be looking at some of them, as many of them as we can fit into season two.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:36:48
Well, that's it that's the end of season one heavenly minded earthly good. If you've paid attention for over an hour and a half. Now I give you I think we'll both give you a round of applause. Deep thank you to all of our special guests who gave up their time and invested in this. Thank you, listeners for supporting us. Thank you Tyndale University, the department distributed learning and not most importantly, but I think most importantly, to you and EDA, for sharing your story and walking us through 11 episodes of your journey through deconstruction can't wait to see what happens for you next.

Anita Wing Lee 1:37:26
Well, since this is a Christian institution I can I can hand off the final accolades to God and say, I mean, there wouldn't be much of a story if there wasn't a god that was leading at all.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:37:39
He is a very good storyteller and apparently, according to you a very handsome painter as well.

Anita Wing Lee 1:37:44
Yeah, you should get to know him.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 1:37:48
I will. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, saints and scholars, heavenly minded, earthly good is a production of Tyndale University. Thank you for listening to season one. And the final word to Anita.

Anita Wing Lee 1:38:01
That's my line. heavenly minded. earthly good is a production of Tyndale University. Visit our website for more details. For more information, I think is what I actually say.