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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand Nerds. We write back at you another episode of Brands Beats and Bytes our lovely little podcast LT that is currently being consumed in 100 countries. Larry, sometimes I like to meet some of these people in these different countries who are Brand Nerds. I can't believe it.
LT: I know we got it.
We got to figure that out someday, but it's still boggles my mind when we, uh, When we put forth that 100 countries thing, uh, Brand Nerds just so you know, we, we don't really DC and I don't track this really closely, but we, we got a message from the, uh, from the, the podcast folks saying you have listeners in 100 countries and that's where we share that with you.
So it's, it's pretty cool stuff.
DC: Larry, I don't know that I have a hundred family members who would be listening to our podcast, let alone a hundred countries. I don't either brother. So Brand Nerds out there. We say, thank you very much for that. We got an interesting guest today, uh, LT, and dare I say that the guests that we have in the building today has had to make some decisions about where his career would go and Brand Nerds. Sometimes we marketing folk, we get limited. We limit our own careers with regard to where we think big M marketing and big B branding can go. We will typically say to ourselves, if we start on the CPG path. Uh, consumer packaged goods. We stay in the CPG path. If we, if we find ourselves in the retail path, we say we're going to stick in retail, but Brand Nerds and Larry, you know this well, if you really gonna ball out in your career, you gots to be open.
LT: Yep.
DC: And sometimes you gots to go to areas where they may not necessarily have the background efficacy or even appreciation for true marketing and Brand Nerds today, there's someone in the building that knows exactly what I'm talking about or stated as they stated in my neighborhood where I grew up and on Kendrick Lamar's GNX.
Uh, this next guest knows what I'm talking about, talking about, okay. Larry, who we got in the building with his brother?
LT: Uh, DC, we have Aaron Arter in the house today. Welcome Aaron.
Aaron Arter: Thank you, Larry. Thank you, DC. Delighted to be here with you all. It's, uh, it's, uh, exciting and, uh, ready to chop it up.
LT: Cool.
Awesome. We're loving having you. So, uh, so Aaron, you know, when we have our podcast, we really need to give our Brand Nerds a sense of who's in the building with us. So that's what we're about to break down right now. So, okay, Brand Nerds. Aaron is someone who is a very successful marketer in the financial industry space.
Where he is currently managing director for American Express. While his career began in financial services, his path to AMEX is super interesting and we think great fodder for you Brand Nerds to learn from. So Aaron earns his undergrad degree in political science and economics. from the prestigious Morehouse College.
As just mentioned, he starts his career in financial services first, for his first three years as a managed care associate for Citigroup Travelers Insurance, and then joins Arthur Anderson for another three years as a compensation and benefits consultant. Alright, at this point, Aaron decides he wants an MBA, and with a scholarship in hand, He goes and earns his MBA in marketing with honors from the great Clark Atlanta University, the same as DC and Jeff, which is really cool.
DC: What's that school again, Larry? I didn't quite catch that.
LT: Clark Atlanta University.
DC: Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you.
LT: All right, D and say it proud. Right. So, okay. D so now Aaron embarks upon his marketing career. Which you started to allude to with a first stop at the time a really successful prestigious company called Eastman Kodak as an associate brand manager.
This is in the early 2000s prior to iPhone branders if you could believe that even was out there. Uh, ever happened. But at the beginning of the digital world, taking flight and soon after, uh, this was this was where Kodak really didn't. I would say traverse the right path. And so at that point, Aaron joins EarthLink Internet as their broadband marketing manager and after helping generate more than 2 billion.
That's right with a B and revenue at EarthLink. Aaron joins Victoria's Secret. This is where the move DC was alluding to before as a Field Marketing Manager. And he quickly gets a larger opportunity to join the Home Depot first as a Corporate Brand Development Manager, where among many responsibilities, he is creating advertising platforms for core brands, including managing 360 degree integrated marketing programs encompassing multi channel platforms for national implementation to the stores Merch Marketing Manager and Proprietary Brand Steward. DC, that's a really cool name. I don't think we ever came upon that before, right? Where among many responsibilities, he is Chief Leader of All Marketing and Advertising for the hugely important, you know, outdoor power equipment, outdoor living space and cleaning categories with which has, which is a 10 billion department.
All right. Yeah. With a B. So after almost four years at Home Depot, Aaron continues to advance up the ladder, landing senior marketing positions at OneCare, Assurant and Cigna before going back to the financial services sector with FinTech company Pfizer. First as senior manager of mobile commerce mobile e commerce solutions where he builds and execute world class partner marketing campaigns and communications for all partners On and off the platform, and then as senior manager, digital banking partnerships and consumer engagement, where he directs e commerce and strategic digital growth initiatives across a 30 million client portfolio, where he elevates new business expansion opportunities through leveraging new charitable platform adoption and other emerging payment ecosystems.
All right, so after four and a half great years with Pfizer, MasterCard comes a calling and Aaron joins them. As director of new business development for MasterCard data and services and Brand Nerds data and services for fintech companies that's where the action is right and Aaron leads card network growth and revenue maximization of data and services via strategic partners including merchant acquirers, resellers fintechs, and many other relevant players in the payment ecosystem.
So after really making things happen at MasterCard, American Express comes calling where two years ago, Aaron joins them as a managing director where among many responsibilities, he leads a team overseeing relationships with several top tier us ops blue partners, which at a 1 billion, that's with a B plus 1 billion plus gross dollar volume.
For those in the know, GDV, I had to ask Aaron, by the way, what that was, DC. Um, and all the work that is associated with this. On the community side, Aaron has volunteered his time to numerous organizations such as Habitat for Humanity, MLK Dream Weekend, and as an ACLU advocate for civil rights and social action.
Really looking forward to this one Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Aaron Arter.
DC: Wow. That's, that's a nice list, brother.
Aaron Arter: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's been a journey DC, uh, but, uh, I'm thankful to have made it this far and just, uh, it's been exciting along the way. It's been a track, but, uh, good stuff.
DC: All right, Aaron, this podcast where we get comfy. So we just started off with the subject to get us ready to do the entirety of the, of the podcast and you, my brother, while you began early in your career and what one might think of as prototypical marketing roles. And responsibilities you've now found yourself in your journey, building out into other areas of your career that include marketing, but that are not limited by just marketing.
And you've also now spent quite a bit of time in the, in the FinTech space. So my question to you, Aaron, is. As you started to go through your career journey, particularly as you, you started to hit FinTech, A, was that something that was premeditated by you? Like, I want to go in this particular area. And then B, in the area of FinTech, many might say, because these are quantitatively driven, hard dollar, uh, organizations, that they may be more interested in the science around marketing rather than the art around marketing. And how have you navigated that? That's my a and b question.
Aaron Arter: Yeah. Excellent question. Uh, I thought you said this wasn't going to be professorial because you come straight to my heart hitting like that. You forced me to have to go there, but okay. Okay.
Do it brother. Do it. Uh, look. So first thing I would say, first part of your question is obviously with a background in brand management. Uh, in DC, you know, this, you have a very classical bent toward marketing and as a steward, and when you get outside of the big brands of consumer and B2C, um, and walking it back to that period of time, coming through the nineties and late eighties and above mean it has, and will, I will say continues to be the hallmarks of whatever any other sector wants to learn from people.
You got to go there. And so, uh, the appreciation when you get into the areas like financial services and other sectors who have less of an appreciation maybe for art and science. Um, no doubt is one that is reason for pause. Um, so to your first question, was I intentional about looking at other sectors?
Um, I would say yes. And the reason why I say that is because You know, coming out of a institution that was lauded for those that don't know, like Clark Atlanta University or that university, some of the greatest brand management professionals, DC among them during the late eighties, whatever. I mean, have went and put their hallmarks on there.
You could spend 10 years plus at a brand company, rise the ranks, but. Sometimes or go further, you wanna do something different. You've kind of, you've, you've laid in roads, whether it's on a brand or, or, or creating advertising that's kind of touched multiple segments. Um, but the proliferation and the desire to kind of want to have greater impact and other services for me started from that journey.
But also just the need to where you would see there could be, uh, opportunities to scale and continue for other, um, segments. Mm-hmm . Um, and that's for me how it turned out. Also having started in financial services, it sort of was a natural progression for me for kind of getting back into that space. What I saw in particular was just the need and the emergence for that sector to kind of be able to leverage my skills.
So I'd say succinctly, it was sort of a combination of seeing the need and having the classical training for those, uh, building out with the bill brands and advertising and manage them, but also. Understanding that the cycle of where you could grow your career and see the need certainly existed, uh, in a big way.
LT: Did that bear fruition, Aaron?
Aaron Arter: It did. Um, candidly, I will say it was really, uh, for me, uh, a telling point. And I'll, I'll point to just some of the accelerants that I saw, building campaigns for large brands at Kodak. And even along the way, um, there where you're working with large agencies, ad agencies, DC notes, this and brands, you have more centers of excellence, uh, when you're working for.
And a lot of the folks that were, even though at that time Kodak was sales driven, had come from large brand companies like Nestle SCJ otherwise, and re institutionalized the brands, even though they lost their way with. Being behind digital, but once you kind of take all that knowledge and I spent my foundational time at SC Johnson while I was in business school, uh, that classical training, once you get outside of that, you get up to the sphere of understanding the discipline and the rigor to build brands and what it takes to lead communications.
And when you get into outside of those sectors and those don't have that knowledge, it was challenging. Um, because They don't move at the same level of rigor and intensity to understand the consumer the right way. So when you want to tell those stories and do those things, you don't have necessarily the insights and you're making millions of dollars of decisions that are not founded in that science.
So that overcoming all of that was a process to which I think, um, it's still evolving for a lot of sectors, to be quite honest.
Interesting.
DC: You know, Aaron, you, you said a word that we marketers cling to, and that is the consumer or the customer of you are B2B and a Brand Nerds, uh, we, we could not reinforce more the need to start with the consumer and then work your way back from there.
Sometimes Aaron, in our profession, we will start from our own perspective inside of these organizations and then go. This is what we want to tell the customer, or this is what we'd like the consumer to do instead of going the other way. So I was glad you mentioned that. The second is, man, Kodak, what an experience to have been there during the time where Kodak was still Kodak.
Now they license off most, most of their stuff. And what we say, uh, Aaron is, uh, they were not clear about the business they were in. The PNL said they were in the film business. The consumer said they were in the memories business captured through image. Had they understood the business they were actually in, they would have hopped on Instagram instantly.
Cause that's, that's like, Oh, they're doing memories. And they're doing memories through image. That's us. That's what our brand is about. That's the business we're in. No, they thought they were in the film business and that's why they got smashed. Okay. That's what, that's, that's what I guess.
LT: The irony, the irony of that is too, that they're, they had such a mode of campaigns back in the day and they called it a Kodak moment.
Yes, yes, that's what it was called a Kodak moment. Yes, that was that was so emotionally based and if they just listened to their marketing and took it to the business side They would have been a hope, you know, who knows that that could have taken him to have become Instagram before Instagram
DC: Yes, I agree, Larry.
Then finally, we're gonna say something else, uh, LT, before I make this final point on the Get Comfy section. Alright, so, Brand Nerds. Aaron said something really important. And one of them was as he viewed the financial services sector, he looked at his own experience and determined there was a need for his classically trained brand management capabilities applied to the financial services industry.
So Brand Nerds, as you're navigating your career, open your mind to think about sectors that may not have a plethora of people with your experience, but you've discerned they need it and then go play. Then, then, then go play.
LT: Love it.
DC: All right. That's all I got on the, on the get comfy section. Larry, you got anything more Aaron? Anything you want to add before we move to the next section?
Aaron Arter: No, I think you've covered it well.
DC: All right. Cool. All right. Brand Nerds, you know what it is. It's five questions time. So this is what happens, Aaron.
Larry and I go back and forth. We each ask one question to start things off and then we get to five. There'll be follow up questions based on your, uh, your answers. But the first one is this, what was the brand experience you had at whatever point in your life or career, but early days where you said, wow, this brand, I can't stop thinking about this brand.
I, I just can't engage. Enough with this brand. I just love this brand or experience. And, uh, and almost like a first love, uh, Aaron, what, what is, or was that for you?
Aaron Arter: That's a tough question. Uh, cause there's been a lot of milestone moments for me. Um, but I'll, I went back even before I got into brand, uh, and that was as a teenager, which I had on my wall.
Um, Pictures. You can appreciate this. You're a Motor City guy. Porsche.
DC: Yes. Oh, yes.
Aaron Arter: Uh, that, uh, 911 and I had the Cabriolet and I had another white one. I was fascinated and I had the opportunity. A good friend of mine was an owner and allowed me to take a ride with him. And I was, I always liked cars, but it was something about the experience, not only of the drive, the image, just how Porsche brought to me. I think elevated, you know, just what they represented. And I was always fascinated. Another friend of mine had went to Germany, rode the Autobaun, give me all these insights. So I first brand impression of a Porsche carrier and I ended up getting shirts and whatever. So. full circle brought to the time when I was an adult and living in the Atlanta area and got a chance to do the Porsche Experience track.
Um, that was the pinnacle moment for me. I've always loved that brand. So that was my first love.
LT: D, I love these stories when we have guests like Aaron. Who conjure up stuff, but this before you even thought of even being in marketing like that, you could feel Aaron, your teen self telling that story. You took us back to the, to the, you know, the pictures on the wall, and I think it's really cool that, uh, that you brought that out.
And then, in fact, that you actually got to do. The Porsche experience as an adult, that's something that you always wanted to have. So, the question is, have you ever owned a Porsche, or will you own one if you haven't owned one?
Aaron Arter: I don't own one yet, but I'm close, and I plan to before it's all over. I'm right now in the realm of love and Audi, and they are a sister.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I plan to, but, uh, not yet
LT: D, what say you ?
DC: Now, Aaron, you mentioned brother, you know, I'm from Motown, so I love some cars. I love some cars and you have hit upon one while, while Porsche is German, uh, that I adore. And, uh, I like you, Aaron, I'm starting to get goosebumps as I'm thinking about this.
I didn't recognize. The brilliance of the Porsche branding until later in life, always loved the cars, had magazines, tore them out, put them on my walls, just like you, Aaron, but check this out. Brand Nerds, you have the brand name Porsche, and then beneath it, you heard Aaron talk about the 9 11. So the 9 11 may be the most iconic single car brand. Ever created. It's like the Coke bottle. If you just drew the shape of it, people would go, Oh, that's a 9 11. They know it's a 9 11. When you get deep into this world, uh, there are variants of Porsches. People say, do you have the nine nine three? That's air cooled. All of these different variants. It's a whole rabbit hole of brand elements that capture the soul of Of the, uh, of the consumer.
Another thing you will notice this, uh, you may or may not know is it. So Aaron said, Porsche you, Larry said, Hey, Aaron, have you owned, or a Porsche? People that are into Porsches? Don't say Porsche. They say Porsche. Okay.
LT: They the Germans. And this comes and, and we we're gonna have to check this, um, as Scott Doniger, a previous guest who Scott worked at BMW.
He will tell you the, the Germans say Porsche.
DC: Oh, do they? I didn't know that. Yes. Oh, so they fronting over here in the, in the us, yes. Okay. Yes. I didn't know that. Well, thank you very much.
LT: That's why I said it. I too was always a big fan. I think it's a young dude thing. Um, you know, even just the way if you ever been one, the way the door closes, it just closes like the, the, the, the way the whole thing is constructed.
I got a quick question for both of you before we get off this, what do you all think about the brand getting into SUVs and four door sedans? What do you all think of that?
DC: Oh, Aaron, you, you go first, brother. You go.
Aaron Arter: Yeah. So it's funny. You mentioned that Larry, because a good friend of mine, uh, Recently bought one and I had a chance to, to ride, to ride in it.
My sister's one of my sister's best friends. And I it's, it's, it's lovely in terms of what I think them getting into it. Look from a opportunity standpoint, I think it was just an eventuality, um, because of the growth in that space. And then that set in that segment for buyers. For it to be, I think I'm wondering why it took them so long, quite frankly, that the cause, just because of how long SUVs have been around.
But I think it's a, it was a, it was a deliberate move. Um, and I think the positioning, if you really want to get into this, that's, that's who they're targeting. That's where the rubber hits the road because, uh, the experience from Porsche, what is known as a sports car, but into that segment, uh, and the way it drives, it's real, very, very.
You've got to have a next level of be able to handle that vehicle. But, um, so it borders a unique type of ownership, but I think it's a great move, uh, and I'm, I'm excited to see where they go with it.
DC: I built off Aaron, Larry, when they first announced the cayenne, uh, I thought it was the dumbest thing that Porsche.
I thought you have to you cannot have an SUV. You can't have that until until I drove a friend's once I drove it just like Aaron riding one. I then went. Oh, yeah, this this is the Porsche of SUVs. I get it now. And so there is a brand. I know Larry, you love this brand quite a bit. BMW. They have the, uh, the strapline, the ultimate driving machine.
It is not the ultimate driver Porsche are the ultimate driver. So I, I was okay with it after experiencing the product.
LT: Well, and that's why I asked the question because. I had the same visceral reaction you did. And I'm going to, all three of us are going to, my sister has one, a Cayenne. And it,
DC: I've seen it.
I've seen it.
LT: Yes.
DC: Actually I've ridden in it.
LT: You're right. And it does, and it does like it, it does drive differently. There's no question. And we've talked about this a lot, Aaron, in our branding practice that, um, a lot of times, you know, with, especially in the car side. You use the sexy car as the lead, but then the target is going to buy something that they might buy the minivan, you know, again, I'm not using Porsche, right?
You know, um, um, and so if you really think of it the way they still have those incredible, the nine 11 and all those wonderful cars, the sports cars. And that's still the lead of what you think about when you think of the brand, but ultimately they're selling a shitload of those SUVs. There's no question they are.
And I think ultimately that was a great business move on their part.
Aaron Arter: Great. Yeah. Yeah. I think there, and there you're going to see it continue to proliferate. I think the experience just like. DC pointed out it, it just exudes just kind of like when you ride that Cayenne, Oh man, it just floats, but the speed, but it's kind of tempered with still that, that, that Porsche feel.
Um, and you've seen their competitors in it, but they still are, they still have some, something really unique about it. So it'll be interesting to see where that goes. You know, in other places they could play with hybrids or otherwise, because I think it starts to get into the economics too, which is another part of, of where I don't know whether that's going to be affordable.
So we'll see.
LT: All right, Aaron. Next question. So who is hatters having the most influence on your career?
Aaron Arter: Wow. Um, I've had a lot of mentors. Um, but I'd say my current, um, my current manager probably had the most influence been in the fintech space. And because, uh, he's really pushed me in terms of just extending my boundaries beyond based on where I've been, to be more of a thoughtful and critical person in this space to be able to elevate. Uh, and I trust his judgment cause he's, you know, he's been around for a long time, but also internationally, and he's a very well respected leader. So, uh, that's who I'd say the probably the most influences is present.
LT: Do we want to do, do we want to state his name on the podcast?
Aaron Arter: Uh, sure. His name's Alex Paul.
LT: Okay, cool.
DC: Shout Alex Paul one time. If you're listening, brother, Alex Paul. What's up?
LT: Well, that's, that's cool, Aaron. You're lucky that you're in a situation where that person's with you now. Right. Um, and, and that's really cool. That's really cool.
Aaron Arter: Yeah. Like I said, I think there's a lot of people that have.
Along my journey of kind of pushed and, you know, reach out to a different moments. I think the fact that, um, when I look at this trajectory and even the things that I aspire or even will continue in capacity, um, I look at the people are much more selective in terms of not telling you what you want to hear.
But what you need to hear to get better, uh, on the leadership arc, um, and knowing where they've been and they really look at how others see you. Um, and then give you sort of the feedback. And I think once you've spent some time to your audience in corporate America, even entrepreneurship, you hear this in big corporations, it's known at AmEx and they're very big on this.
And that's. feedback as a leader. And otherwise it goes about a lot of ways. So when you have someone in your that's in your circle and you know your work circle that's gonna put you out there and it also kind of push you And to pull you back when you think you might be flying and you're really not, that's somebody that's important.
LT: I love that you added that on. That's a huge thing to find somebody that's truly going to give you the, you know, the real information and, uh, and that's how you get better. You know, when they, when they get to the crux of what, as you said, what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Do you have any follow up?
You want to hit the next question?
DC: I got one quick thing and then I'm going to hit the next question immediately after this. Sports is one of the purest areas of performance. All sports, football, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, you name it. Um, what these sports have in common is they look at film, Aaron and LT, and the film evaluation allows them to see their performance and determine what they did that worked and what they did not. And film don't lie.
LT: Yep.
DC: Film don't lie. People do, but film does not. So if you've got a manager like yours, Aaron, Alex, And Alex can be a form of film for you. You're winning. Yes. You're winning. Next question. Aaron, you wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting right now if you didn't have many dubs. But for this question, I'd like to know nothing of those W's.
I want to understand from you your biggest F up and what you learned from it. And a big one, the stanky, stanky one.
Aaron Arter: Wow. Don't put me out there. Right. Um, yeah, you know, for me, uh, the biggest, and this is, this is hard because you always want to think that you've never done anything that could not be corrected or your otherwise cleaned up your own mess before it got to be a big one, um, but I would, mine would be, uh, as a young brand steward.
Um, in retail, which I felt like coming up where I was, I had a lot of knowledge. Maybe I wouldn't say cocky, but coming out of brand management in retail felt like I knew what I was doing. Um, two, I felt as though I had a pretty good portfolio of brands under my hood and, and the structure I was operating in kind of knew what I was doing, um, but miscalculated and made a, an error with sort of in that capacity I was working as a brand leader, but almost in a mini, mini advertising agency, which in-house the retail large retailer had, and I'm being specific and not calling them out, but in the structure and the organization I was in, and you'll have an appreciation for this Brand Nerds.
When you go from a brand, a large brand or brand management company, and you come into retail, at least it was like that then where the brand leaders are really running the show in retail. Not so not so right.
The buyer, the merchants are running the merchants or buyers running the show. I'm giving you all this context for a reason.
Um, so I was still in, in, in the, in the myriad of thinking that I was, that and all that and made a miscalculation in terms of one of the, in my portfolio, uh, brands that was presented and laid out for a large ad that was going to be going on. And retail is a churn DC, every, every it's a churn. And I thought I had done my homework and laid this out in the portfolio for the ad to run through and had not checked off with the lead buyer on one particular item.
That's just going to be a big. And they had actually changed it out and swapped it out for another one. And this was going to be a national ad and none of it is ran the wrong ad had a huge volume implications to it. And I was lead for the category and it was on me as running it and had to answer to the lead buyer and the buyer VP on that when this came through and basically admit that I was, that it was on me.
Um, and so that was the biggest one and that volume implications once they added run and couldn't be pulled. was very high. Um, so that was, that was a big one. So what I learned from it was you have to sometimes take off that, uh, that arrogance and understand the environment you're operating in and also recognize the channels of communication and understand, you know, it's not always, always about what you know, but understanding, you know, make sure that you're validating your sources and, uh, before you let things go.
So it was huge.
LT: This is a good one.
DC: Oh, this is such a good, this is such a good.
LT: Aaron, thanks for sharing that by the way, because I was feeling your pain and you know, that's what we asked folks to do to be vulnerable in that sense. So thank you for sharing that. Uh, because there's a lot to learn from, from, uh, for a lot of folks.
And I think the two things I smell that you were, that you were hit with is, and by the way, I was way worse than you in my career. Like I thought I knew everything in my thirties coming off of, you know, and you feel like you're sort of bulletproof and you know, you were now in an environment, like you said, that's not marketing or brand centric, that's merch centric.
And you feel like, you know, this is my deal. It's advertising. I know what to do. And so you sort of realize that the, that the epicenter of this company was not marketing. That's the big thing. And then two, because it's not marketing, I best check this off. With the folks who are really running the show being the merchant buyers, right?
Um, and so, you know, you thought you had it all figured out and that's such a great learning I'm sure you didn't do anything like that again
Aaron Arter: Oh, no, I learned the hard way and it was, uh, you know, beyond a tongue lashing to all the authorities. Um, you know, I never repeated that again. Actually the buyers became my best, my best business, uh, friend at the time, but I granted greater appreciation also for merchant from the merchant side. And I learned, um, I learned it even better cause I knew the marketing piece, but, uh, that was another learning for me.
DC: I got two things. I'm gonna go back to the constitution. So when, um, when our country, uh, our country was being founded, the reason why we talk about John Hancock and our Declaration of Independence is because he signed his name, the largest, That, that's why John Hancock, when you say put your John Hancock on it, everybody else just signed regular, but John Hancock was like, John Hancock.
So this was, this was his way of signaling. I want the UK to understand I'm not scarred. We are, we are freeing ourselves of you all. There's another, uh, thing that it's either him or I believe it's Thomas Jefferson. They had a quote and the quote was, nothing so concentrates the mind as the prospect of being hanged.
Cause that's, that's what was going to happen to these, these brothers. They, they, they, they were going to be hanged. So let me come back to you in this mistake. Did you think that you had possibly put in yourself? Put yourself in position to be fired. Did you think this was a fireable offense?
Aaron Arter: At the time? No, but once the magnitude of the volume and the dollars associated with enough that I didn't think that through, um, I realized it. I did think it was at that point at that point
LT: Had a couple sleepless nights.
DC: It sounds like, Oh yeah. Yeah. All right. So this is, this is so important. I don't think we've had this one before.
Uh, LT. So Aaron helped the Brand Nerds understand what you were doing at a time when you thought this is pretty big, like the sales implications here are large. I could be fired. What were you doing? Once you had that epiphany?
Aaron Arter: What I was doing was once I went through just the implications of that, I was not, initially I was thinking, how can I make this right? And then once I realized it was no turning back, what I was taking a position was because for me, I want it to be defending, you know, my decision and choice around from the marketing side of why it made sense.
Um, but I quickly had to pivot to understanding. This was bigger than just the marketing side of it. This had business implications, understanding I'm a business person. I'm a marketer first, but I have a business degree. I had to go to that and that had to take. The scrutiny, I took scrutiny above that and be accountable.
So the evolution there, maybe it was really just being able to kind of be a smart, not only a brand steward, but a better, um, business person and be willing to kind of owner up to that. And then have that, have that conversation, um, and really be able to move forward from that point.
DC: Got it. Thank you. Thank you very much for that, Aaron.
All right, LT.
LT: All right. That was great, Aaron. Next question. So regarding technology and marketing, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can hit us with areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid.
Aaron Arter: Yeah, I think today's technology for, and I look at, we talked about, I think it would be remiss if we're not talking about the Gen Z's, uh, and the new generation.
We are at American Express, very proud to say that we have harnessed and that's where our growth is. But I think across the platforms, when you, you heard DC mentioned Instagram before, it's really about understanding the search experience, um, and understanding when you get in that search experience now and leveraging tools like AI, how do you keep them in that space and be able to make purchase at the point of purchase there and not leave. So the next realm is going to be one, whoever's winning with that generation has got to harness, whether it's Google, whatever, whatever other platforms as manufacturers to understand, we've got to win either with AI or otherwise to keep them there because That's where you're going to take a leapfrog ahead.
So figuring out that, that's that cycle is going to be pivotal moving forward.
LT: I love that you went right there because I mean, let's face it, you know, a brand like American express is such a great brand. It's been, but it's been around for a minute. It's been around a long time. And, uh, we've done this a lot on the podcast to quote, uh, The CMO, when we were at Coke, Sergio Zeman, Sergio used to say, you have to reintroduce your brand to a new consumer every day.
And we, we always think about that. And that's really what you're talking about. How are you going to keep making sure that American Express is relevant to younger consumers because, let's face it, because of its premium quality, premium sort of brand, you, you could be quickly get to be old and stodgy. So you don't want to go there.
And so how are you going to keep, keep it fresh? Right? So I love the fact that you guys. Are really thinking of that top of mind. Am I, am I understanding that correctly?
Aaron Arter: Yeah. And you think about it, even though it's a financial brand is a premium brand. It's winning, um, is understanding, obviously we go through a lot of scoring and modeling on the front end to get those that are the qualified and those that can, can, can be, once you get past that, the, the down cycle of how that continues to stay relevant.
Is really got to be on those platforms, tick tock, for example, and see all of those that come along on that journey with you and those brands they're there already. It's the intermingling of that, uh, in a way that stays, uh, top of mind. So the advertising, we can go a lot of different ways with that, but you've got to continue to keep it fresh as well with the partnerships we form with others to ensure that when you go through the cycle of purchases.
They're seeing that their experience is reflective of that and it becomes just a natural progression.
LT: That's that really strong. D what you thinking?
DC: All right, so this one is a little
Dangerous, I think. For you and your space Aaron. You, you, you're with the money and everything comes down to the money unfortunately It comes back to the money and you mentioned AI. Now, when we were coming up, Aaron, Larry, and the business, we, the companies had more data than the consumer. We had Nielsen, IRI, we had panel data.
We could manipulate all of this and then use that data armed with that data. Take that for data. Okay. Armed with that data, we would then start to craft our marketing strategies. Our objectives, our strategies, and then our executions. But in this time, in this time, in this age, you mentioned AI, AI is not something that just Amex has, okay.
Or that just the financial services or FinTech industry, AI is available to everyone. Including the consumer. So my follow up question to you, Aaron is given that the consumers, these millennials that you're seeking to target, who, who, who have the ability to, to, uh, uh, be approved for Amex products as a service that they now got like nerd wallet and all these other things, like, how do you guys, because they got AI, they can figure this shit out.
How do you all stay with them? Um,
Aaron Arter: Yeah. So it's a great, it's a great challenge question. Uh, DC, uh, it's a journey, right? So staying with them is, is, is really creating those moments of opportunity where they want to utilize their card or utilize a form factor of the card. Let's be honest, is your wallet important, but Those can come in the form of being in places where they want to be creating memorable experiences, whether showing up at a lounge, whether being at an a sporting event, being this, and you know, this, the panorama DC of all of the advertising they see when they see American Express, it's an image driven brand.
We won't, we won't lose their relevancy and their ability to kind of, when they flash that out amongst their friends or others. They get excited. So you create this plethora of experiences for them in their journey and their path to purchase in numerous venues, numerous opportunities where we have a signature presence, you don't lose them over time.
DC: Mm. Yeah, I'll just say this, uh, and then we'll go to the last question. Available to millennials now, when not available to us, when we were in that, uh, age strata, are myriad options. I mentioned just one, uh, earlier in Nerd Wallet, but you've got Chime, Robin Hood, Mint. You got cash app. I mean, you got Sofi you got Acorn, all of these micro, they're not so micro anymore.
But when they started, they were micro, um, financial services, uh, entities and brands. And they were, they were, um, leveraging the fragmentation that's happening everywhere, including in your market. But some things are universally true. When I got my first Amex card, it was a mama. I made it moment that that thing was greener than green.
Now that didn't matter. It was a mama. I made it moment. And I think even in today's time with all of these other things, uh, there. If someone is out with their people, their millennials for a, for a dinner or drinks, and I need to ask my, my daughter, this was listening, and someone is pulling out their wallet and they got the cash app card or the Amex card.
It's like they're reaching for the Amex card to put that sucker down, or they're doing their phone where you can see the Amex card showed up. I believe that. I might be wrong, Aaron. I might be wrong, Larry, but I think Mama I Made It is still as relevant today as it was 30 years ago.
LT: I would think so too.
The question is, is, is the Amex card still the, the currency for that? Um, and I think that they continue to do a great job in their marketing to continue. to have it be what you're saying, DC um, one quick thing before we get to the last question, I want to posit to D. We've had a lot of this conversation very recently with clients.
So you were talking about social media, Aaron, and the way you show up for Gen Z as well as, you know, the millennials and whatnot. Um, you've really got to understand what your brand personality is, and then what you are, what you are as a brand, and then how you're going to navigate each of the different social media networks.
Because the way you show up on Instagram and the way you show up on Facebook, because Facebook's older is, and I'm using, that's the same company, is going to be much different, but still has to be within your brand personality. So you might dial up elements of your personality for Instagram in a different way than you would with Facebook.
Um, so I'm just putting that out there for the Brand Nerds to understand. They're still going to be the same personality for American express. You're the dial ups of what you convey is going to be different in these different social media platforms.
DC: Yep. Good point, Larry. Final question. Brother Aaron, what are you most proud of?
Aaron Arter: Uh, um, tough question. It's a lot, but, uh, I'd say resiliency and perseverance over the course of, uh, of the journey and the career. And I say that for a couple of reasons. One, you all know this and for your audience, uh, along the course of the corporate journey, or even if you venture into the entrepreneurial side, you're going to hit a lot of roadblocks ups and downs and you, you really kind of have to be built for what's to come and not necessarily wanting to tap out.
Cause there's a lot of times when you might feel you want to tap out. Um, and I don't, I don't say, uh, being proud of that is not something that goes a long way. Having that resiliency and perseverance and a lot of support system along the way to be able to leave a lasting impression. And legacy for those that are coming up now, I think is, is really earnest because there's a lot of war stories, but also good things.
So, um, that would be what I would be most proud of.
LT: D I love this, man. Like, you know, a lot of times Aaron, people will say, well, I did such and such, and I'm proud of my kids. And, you know, those are all wonderful things to be proud of. But man, you know, to be sitting where you're sitting, you've got to have resilience and perseverance.
And for you to, to shout that out in effect of being proud of that, that's, I love that. That's awesome.
DC: Thank you. That's good. There's a, uh, Kenny Rogers song. It's called the gambler. And one of the lines in there is you got to know when to hold them. I think the name of the song is Gambling.
LT: Yep.
DC: This Perseverance and Resiliency, Aaron, how do you know when to persevere and when to cut bait?
Aaron Arter: Yeah, uh, I would rely on two things. I think it's just having that, uh, network of folks around you. Um, when you need to step outside the box, uh, certainly been earnest in, in my, uh, my spiritual prayer realm, but also I think you get to a precipice of when you feel like, um, through the experiences you've had, you kind of just know, um, because you've kind of the most important class is based on the corporate sex setting.
I think I had when I was in business school was organizational behavior.
Jade: Mm.
Aaron Arter: Mm-hmm . And ob. Ob, yep. When you see the sea wind start to shift and you've been around a while, you know when it's time. So that would be it for me.
DC: Excellent. That's really good. Excellent. Thank you, Aaron. My pleasure.
LT: All right, de, should we hit it? Should we hit the next category? Hit the next category.
DC: Let's do it.
LT: All right. What's poppin What's poppin D?
DC: What's poppin
LT: All right, Aaron. This is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is a good fodder for discussion.
Oh, Aaron, we think we've got a really good one today. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. It's the holiday season, folks. It's, here it is, it's December and holiday spirits and wonderful Christmas lights and holiday lights are bountiful. And we see all the associated marketing advertising that goes with that. And Aaron, our old friends at Coca Cola, came up with a holiday ad this year that was AI based.
Oh, they're taking a lot of heat for it. So, we thought this would be really interesting to talk about. Um, I'll, I'll posit a couple things that I really want to hear what you all have to say. Um, I applaud the effort that Coke is trying to lean in.
DC: Hey, I'm sorry, Larry. I'm really sorry to interrupt you.
Yeah. For the brand nerds who do not know specifically what happened, can you tell the brand nerds, here is what happened, and then
LT: Yes, thank you. Yeah, okay, yeah. So Coca
Cola came out with a holiday ad for this holiday season that, uh, is basically replicating an ad from the 90s that was, uh, one that was looked upon the 90s.
As a wonderful, um, vestige of the of what's great about Coca Cola holiday advertising. Um, and so they, they went to, uh, um, an AI production house and in essence wanted to do an update of that ad. I think it was from 1996, if I'm not mistaken, or 97, um, update that ad using AI for, for this holiday season of 2024.
Yeah. Uh, D, do you want to add anything to it?
DC: Nope. Mm mm.
LT: So, uh, I think it was, uh, I don't know if there's a 60, um, I've, I've seen the 30. Um, but anyway, uh, they came out with that ad and they have been lambasted. They've gotten, they've taken a lot of grief from a lot of folks in many corners. Um, so I want to say a couple things.
One is, I do applaud the effort of our friends at Coca Cola for leaning into AI, because AI is the future. Um, and and, you know, to try and do something that is AI base is really cool. What I would say is two things where I have issue with it with it is why do why replicate an ad from 30 years ago? That was that conjured up such great things.
Maybe you should think about doing something that's entirely new. AI is new and maybe you also don't do it during that for the for the Christmas ad. That People really put a lot of focus on maybe again. Maybe they did that on purpose. Maybe they like the fact that people are talking about it. Um, I actually saw they have another holiday ad where there's young people trying to get home for the holidays, which is not ai based Which is awesome, by the way, and we'll put these links in the uh in the show notes. So those are my thoughts about it.
I'd love to hear Aaron, DC, what say you?
Aaron Arter: Yeah. Uh, I, I, I, I will speak in two lights. One. Um, I will be careful because I would rather see the ad first. So I'm going to be speaking blind on that piece, but how you set it up, but knowing the brand stewards at Coke, um, they're very intentional what they do with their agency.
Um, and so I don't necessarily think that doing this may have been the wrong, the what's. And the why behind the intention of what they were looking to do, I think, was probably well thought out, um, more so the long view of what it would probably be criticized for, uh, might, I can see how it would be, but from where it's going to the short term gain would seem to be smart. Um, there's Coke is really all about nostalgia. So for them to take an old ad doesn't necessarily a bad thing. If they're feeling like it was short circuited to use AI, maybe so. But the memories of what that, that short term ad, and I'm sure that was an ad that probably scored well when it did, had to be part of their decision making.
So I'm sort of in a mixed space on that. And I think the criticism might just be more. Based off of them feeling like it was not well thought out, but I think it may have been, it's just the, the early rumblings of it. Happy to hear what you've got on that DC.
DC: Uh, Aaron and Larry, I'm going to go Barkley on this.
Charles Barkley, the whole goddamn thing is terrible. All right. It's terrible. This was dumb. This was dumb. I can imagine the briefing went something like this, either from Coca Cola to the agencies or the agencies convincing Coca Cola. And it went something like this, the holidays are coming. And, um, we are a definitively cultural and emotional brand, but you know, we got to appeal to the younger generation and AI is really big.
So why don't we show. Some of our iconic stuff we made by AI. So we have both the nostalgia to your point, Aaron, and the modernity of today. I can imagine this was the discussion.
LT: Yep.
DC: I can imagine. And then it was like, We've been
LT: in that room, D, we know.
DC: Oh, this is great. Let's do it. Let me tell you why this was dumb.
Brand Coca Cola, specifically the name on the building, is built on emotions. Emotions, human emotions. Second, Coca Cola, if you were to boil it down when it's at its best in its advertising, it's about memorable moments with family and friends. That's what it's about. And this represents an important part of humanity.
So now let me go to, uh, something else. It's Christmas time. One of my favorite shows is a Charlie Brown Christmas.
LT: I love
DC: it. This was launched in 1965.
LT: Yep.
DC: It's the same damn show every year, every year. It will
LT: be 50 years from it
DC: will be okay. It has not been remade by AI.
LT: Nope.
DC: It is not that it's that it's like It's iconic.
It's iconic. So what Coca Cola did was the equivalent of going to Madam Toussaint, who does wax figures, and said, Hey, there's this dude named DC, Daryl Cobbin, his eldest daughter that works with him, whom he loves. Her name is Hailey Cobbin. She's, she's a part of putting this together, by the way, Aaron, she handles all of our marketing for the podcast.
And we're going to do a wax figure of Hailey Cobbin, his daughter. And she's going to do all the things that Hailey, the real person does. Talk the same, look the same, move the same. Here's the issue, that wax figure would not have any soul. And this AI thing lacks soul. And for a brand that's about emotions, and about humanity, and about memorable moments with family and friends, you can't give up the soul for technology.
If I were there, I would have been dead on arrival.
LT: Yeah, I completely agree. That's what I was saying. You don't do this for the holiday is all about emotion. And Aaron said, nostalgia. And you know, that's what, that's what it's supposed to conjure up. And, and, and AI is antithetical to that in every way. Um, but look, we're talking about it.
Um, you know, there's the folks who think I don't think that any publicity is good publicity. I don't subscribe to that at all. I think that this was a really bad idea and I think something that, that's what I was saying before, that would be more cutting edge, that isn't as nostalgia, um, based and, and, you know, that would have been something for them to cut their teeth on.
Not this.
DC: I agree, Larry. I'll just say this. I am certain Aaron, you are right. There, there was tons of research done. It, it tested well, this thing had to test well. But this is why Brand Nerds, I say, if brands were built purely on just what the research said, then people in research functions would be running all of the major brands around the world.
They're not because research is used to inform decisions, not make decisions. And in this case, They allowed it to make the decision. I would, I'm guessing to run this thing when they look back, they know this was dumb. It was a dumb idea. And I've made my share. They've made their share, but this was dumb.
LT: Well said. Well said. Well said. Well, Aaron, you know, our best shows go quick, man. This has been so much fun. We're, we're really at the, at the last segment of the show. So, and that's what DC and I posit our learnings and, um, Man, there's so much to say and I'm going to call mine down to three, what I think are really important things for the Brand Nerds to take away.
So number one is, uh, like Aaron did very consciously Brand Nerds, think about a category sweet spot where you can make the most impact that Aaron did that and that's worked out swimmingly for him. So that's number one. Number two, uh, as Aaron has it in his mentor, Alex. Find mentors who tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.
And that could be uncomfortable, but that's okay. And then my third one, and something that, um, I think is so important, Aaron, and I'm so glad that you lit, lit the fuse for us in, in, uh, your F up here. That Brand Nerds, you've got to really understand the environment you are working in. Ask yourself, who has the power?
Is this a marketing centric organization? Or does finance run the show? Or is it tech? Or is it sales centric? Who, what function is really running the show? Got to understand that. First day you walk in and maybe you can't figure out the first day, but in the first 30 days you certainly can figure out you got to figure that out And then once you understand that you as a marketer, you've got to then figure out what's the best way for you as a marketer?
to best navigate this for for the company for it where it's optimal for the company And then it's optimal for you in the present and your career going forward. So lots to learn there Those are my three great stuff. Aaron. Thank you
DC: Great, Larry. Outstanding. Aaron, don't know if you've listened to any of our podcasts or not, but if you have, you may have noticed that the conclusion, my attempt is to describe the uniqueness of the, of the person before me.
And sometimes it hits me, and sometimes it doesn't. Uh, in this case, something has hit me. Also in this case, there's something unique. I will draw upon many different things that the guest has said to draw a conclusion about the uniqueness of the, of the person. But in this case, and this is the only case that I've had, I can narrow this down to your answer to one question.
And it is the question about your biggest F up in why and your answer to it. That one answer, which is one of the best that I've ever heard. And we've done hundreds of these podcasts. I believe I have now come to, arrived at a conclusion about. Who and what you are that is unique to maybe anyone. So let me go through that.
You talked about the fact that you put this national ad together and you were launching it and you had not checked in with the, with the buyers, a product had been switched. You had the wrong one in your ad, this thing launches, and there are major volume and revenue implications. You are just out there with your ass out in the wind, okay, for all to see.
So this is not something, Brand Nerds, that Aaron could, like, quietly sweep under a rug. Oh, no, no, no. They could just hold up the ad and say, You see this, brother? Yeah, you see this right here? You see that wrong product up in there? Okay, so this is what you call high exposure failure. High exposure failure.
But there are three things about how you handled this. That lead me to my conclusion about you. The first one is you admitted the mistake and you said, it's on me. You didn't say it's, um, this person over here or that buyer. You could have told me I sent you the ad. You didn't know. No, you said it's on me.
So this is some personal accountability and Brand Nerds. If you run into people who cannot be personally accountable can just say, okay, I got all of that. It's on me. Alarm should go off. And not that many people have the confidence to say it's on me, but that's the first thing. The second thing is when I asked you, Oh, well, brother, did you think this was a fireable offense?
Aaron says it was well at first I did not, but as the volume and revenue implications started to rise, I did consider. Ooh, this is a big one. I might be out of here. And I said, well, what did, what did you do, brother? He said, I just wanted to make it right. So this is the second point. Brand Nerds, just make it right.
Do your part to make it right to the best of your ability. And then the third thing that you said is, uh, after this, you and the buyer became best of friends inside of this company, right? Which may not have occurred without this major effort. So all of this says brother Aaron knows how to deal with some heat and Brand Nerds, many executives wilt in the heat.
They run from the heat. They're scared of the heat. The heat's always coming brand nerds. It's you going to always find some heat, which then leads me to this. Aaron, uh, there is a difference between a thermostat and a barometer. I'm going to read you what the function of a thermostat is. A thermostat is a device that regulates the temperature of a space, typically in heating and cooling systems.
So in the corporate world, someone who's a thermostat can tell you, Ooh, it's hot in here. Okay, Woo. This is pretty hot. All right. And in part, Aaron did that. The barometer serves a different function. It costs. Here's the barometer, the function of the barometer. The barometer is an instrument that measures the atmospheric pressure.
It is primarily used in meteorology. To help predict weather changes, a thermostat reads a barometer predicts and Aaron, what I got from you in that one answer was first the reading of the temperature and then second, the barometer aspects of then going to predicting ahead what needs to happen and what may happen.
Not everybody has that brother. So for you, my conclusion is that what Aaron Arter is the barometer of brand management.
LT: Yes.
DC: The barometer of brand management. That's what I believe you are, brother.
Aaron Arter: I love that. Uh, wow. You distilled it down and I like the, uh, the brand, uh, the brand, uh, moniker, so wow, I'm just digesting it all.
That was, and Larry, you, you guys are a great tandem because you, you definitely listened and you put it out there, I think in a way that. I hope the, your audience can get something out of this was awesome. I'm just, just loving it. You guys got something special here.
LT: Well, thank you, Aaron. Anything you want to posit, uh, to the Brand Nerds before we, uh, we hit the show close.
DC: So specifically, Aaron, just when we asked that question, just like we have given our takeaways. Of our time with you, we'd like you to give your takeaways if you have any of your time with us.
Aaron Arter: Yeah, okay. Look, I, Mike, for you, I think for what I take away from it is the ability to really be relevant for your audience and your career journey and brand and even anything it involves just being a great listener, you all demonstrated that to me in just a short time.
And I think that's a big takeaway because you have to be able to listen well, um, for many different reasons than that to state the obvious. The other thing I'd say summarily is, um, everybody has a different journey and sometimes. The longer you've been around, you don't always know what that journey is going to be, but you have to be open to, um, really being able to navigate and understand your relevancy sometimes isn't going to always be obvious to you.
It's going to sometimes happen organically, but I think the, what I've taken from you all probably, which isn't as obvious. We need to state as relationships matter. Who you meet along the journey corporately or otherwise, you probably need to stick close. And I'm sure you and Larry have had that in your space.
You never know where that's going to lead down the road. So keep your professional network and relationships tight. And you might think your expertise is one thing, but. Being able to kind of have folks to bounce stuff off, off, off along the way could materialize in a big way later on. And I see that in both of you all.
LT: Love that. That's a mic drop, D. It is. Thanks for listening to Brands, Beats, and Bytes Brand Nerds. The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" cobbin, Larry Taiman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom DiOro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That it. Yeah. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple podcasts, if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews.
We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.