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The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim: [00:00:02] All right, so I am here with Jason Ward. Welcome, Jason, to The Wellness Docket. And I'll do just a quick introduction here. Jason Ward recently retired from litigation at the age of 50. He co-owns with his wife, a 12 lawyer, full service firm in central East Ontario, one of the largest regional firms. He is certified by the Law Society as a specialist in civil litigation. Jason is very enthusiastic about mental health wellness in the community, especially for lawyers. After his story was spotlighted by national media organizations in both Canada and the US, like Maclean's and the American Bar Association. Jason spends much of his time publicly speaking to others about his journey. He is dedicated to raising awareness. He's stigmatizing and making paramount mental health wellness for everyone, particularly for legal professionals, and Jason can be reached through his website, 'Mentally Speaking'. So welcome, Jason, and thanks for taking the time to speak to me today.
Jason: [00:01:10] Thank you, Tim, it's an honor to be here.
Tim: [00:01:13] Yeah. So I guess the starting point here, just to begin. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about your journey in the law, starting, I think, at a big firm, uh, in one of the big firms in Ontario on Bay Street to starting your own firm, and then some of the difficulties that you went through that made you decide to retire a few years ago?
Jason: [00:01:36] Certainly. So that's quite correct. I started my career at one of the largest firms in Canada in the litigation group. I carried the bags of some very prominent, well-known Ontario litigators. So I had excellent training in my younger years as a lawyer. I decided to leave that firm, and I entered the political realm. I ran as a member of the provincial parliament here in Ontario. I was unsuccessful in doing so. And after that, I decided not to return to the fray at King and Bay in Toronto. My wife was also a lawyer practicing at the largest firm in the country, and we moved and relocated from our home in downtown Toronto to my hometown growing up in Ontario. And I hung out a shingle while my wife continued to practice in Toronto and commuted. And over the course of 20 years, she and I have built what's now, as you mentioned, one of the largest firms regionally. It's a very successful law firm. My career became very successful. I worked very hard as a litigator. I only did the trial law at our firm, and over the course of time, the firm grew and ballooned to now, as you say, 12 lawyers and 35 staff. So it's become quite an operation. At the height of my success, I experienced what some may call burnout. I refer to it as mental health related issues. And because of that, that translated into addiction problems for me. So at the age of 47, I had rarely drank alcohol. I drank a handful of times a year, rarely to excess, until age 47. Similarly, Tim, at the age of 48, I had never done drugs, with the exception of maybe trying marijuana in university once or twice. Drugs were not a part of my life. And yet, at the age of 50, while soaring high in my legal career and doing exceptionally well, I was forcefully required, self-imposed, to retire and walk away from my law firm, leaving the profession as both an addict and an alcoholic.
Tim: [00:04:07] And when did that occur? What year was that?
Jason: [00:04:10] It began at my age, 47, and I left the profession at 50, which was approximately three and a half years ago.
Tim: [00:04:21] How hard was it to make that decision when you decided to leave the profession?
Jason: [00:04:25] Well, it was extremely difficult, but to be honest, Tim, I had spiraled down to the point where literally, I became nonfunctioning. I'll give you an example leading up to my departure. I hired a psychiatrist out of Toronto who I worked with three times a week, 45 minute sessions each for an entire year, attempting to design and craft a way for me to remain in the profession and continue to do my job. I wasn't successful in the mornings. I own the building where the law firm is housed. In the mornings, I'd pull up in my F-150 black pickup truck and, you know, looking at the eponymous law firm with my name on the door, and I would have to sit in my truck for about an hour just to build up enough will and ability to walk in there and do my job in the day. And that's how challenging it became for me in the evenings. Eventually, if I received emails related to work, like from clients or other counsel, if those emails were laden with conflict in some way, I reacted very aggressively in the sense that I couldn't process it to the point that often they made me physically sick and I would vomit. That's how bad it got for me on a day to day basis towards the very end. So the decision to actually walk away and exit was made abruptly by me. I called all the lawyers into a conference room. I explained to them what had been going on because some of them weren't aware. Or at least not to the extent of my addictions and my mental health issues. And I was out of the law firm in one week, which, as you know, as a lawyer is a very quick departure from your law firm. So. And it had to happen. And that's how I exited it. I almost didn't even think about it. I wasn't processing it. I knew I couldn't be there. I couldn't walk into the building anymore. This really felt like I had no other option to choose.
Tim: [00:06:49] And do you think that it's probably better that it turned out that way? Um, that you didn't have any other option? Because otherwise you may have made excuses forever, you know, because you know as well as I do most lawyers, you know, that being part of that profession is like a badge of honor. Most lawyers, you have to work really hard to get there. Do you think that was the only way that you could do it? Because otherwise, if you gave yourself time to think about it, it might not have happened.
Jason: [00:07:20] Well, yes, I agree with that. And yes, many lawyers are tied up. Their identity is tied up with their profession. And I did struggle with that part of it, like most practitioners would. And one of the great challenges for me was, you know, going from Mach 2 to 0, in an awful hurry creates its own issues. Um, so it's been a bumpy ride. It was a bumpy ride when I left the firm and a lot had to be processed and dealt with. And emotionally, I was a complete wreck. I was high all the time. I was on drugs, and I used those drugs to shield myself from what was going on around me, and the decision I felt I was forced to make and to numb my emotions about it. And it was only over the course of the last, you know, three years where I've been able to get back into those emotions, process them and try to sort them out, including my feelings of guilt and shame about what happened to me.
Tim: [00:08:32] Can you tell me a little bit about, you know, what kind of drugs? Um, and kind of when did that start and at what levels, um, did you start with and then build up to?
Jason: [00:08:44] Yeah. I'll also mention the alcohol. So alcohol for me began on vacations. I took many southern vacations with my family throughout the year, and alcohol became a commonplace at those. And then it followed me back home to the point where I started drinking daily. I would, you know, rather than leave the office at 6 or 6:30 as I had historically done, I started leaving earlier and earlier to go home to drink. And by the time I managed to stop drinking, my volume was probably 3 or 4 rum and Diet Cokes when I got home. And invariably I would consume two or more bottles of red wine each evening. So quite a bit of alcohol. That's at my peak towards the end of my alcohol disorder. Um, when I managed to stop alcohol, I couldn't exist. I was still working and I couldn't exist without some mind alteration. I immediately reverted back into those feelings where I couldn't walk into the office. Uh, and those types of feelings. So I turned to drugs. I thought drugs would be a way for me to numb myself and escape those emotions. Uh, I felt they were less detectable than alcohol to my family and my colleagues. Uh, and I started gently. I started with, you know, the gummies that are advertised in your Facebook feed every day and started taking those, and then those weren't enough. So I increased my THC balance. And eventually I discovered that you could buy online concentrated THC pills. So I quickly escalated to that. And it got so bad that, you know, this was all after cannabis was legally authorized in our country. And it got so bad that I would travel up to an hour every morning to spread out my consumption of THC amongst various cannabis retailers in the region because I didn't want any particular one of them knowing how much THC I was buying, and that's how my mind started to work. I live in a town where I had quite a bit of public notoriety. I was quite well known. I do a lot of community service and I didn't want anyone in the town to realize how much I was taking. But to give you a sense with THC, I mean, the average person would take about 10 to 12mg of THC for a moderate high during the evening. And at my peak, with THC in the pills, I would be taking around 200 to 250mg per day of THC. And I was high all the time. And not only high, but I wouldn't stop taking it until I reached that point of pure intoxication that alcohol gave right, which is my mind shuts off. I'm completely guarded from what was going on in my life professionally, and that's what I needed the THC to do. It's a gateway drug. Whoever tells you that marijuana isn't addictive is full of ---. Because I was completely addicted to marijuana. And when that didn't become enough, I started experimenting with stronger drugs, powder drugs and those types of things. And that's when I realized if I continue on, I'm going to die because I cannot control what I'm doing. I will continue to take stronger and stronger drugs until they get they catch up to me and kill me. And that's when it was Super Bowl Sunday, which happened to be my birthday that year. Russia was just about to invade Ukraine, and I got on a via train in Ontario and took a train to Montreal, Quebec, and took a cab to an old stone building in the middle of Montreal downtown. Knocked on the door and said, can you let me in? And by the grace of God, they did. And that's when I started my rehab treatment.
Tim: [00:13:05] Right, and when you get clean and sober. When you did that, did your family know that you were going to do that?
Jason: [00:13:14] Yes. Towards the end, I mean, I was very open and communicative with my wife throughout this. She's an amazing person and has been more supportive than anything I could ever imagine. Um, so she was aware, until I started the heavier drug. She was aware of how I was using, and she knew I was high. I disclosed to my children about my alcoholism. When I decided to stop, I told them what had happened and that I was going to stop. I did not talk to my children about the drugs because I was so shameful and embarrassed about it. But eventually I did. After, well, in the midst of rehab, I was able to communicate with all of them about the truth, about what had happened and my goals to get better and not continue it.
Tim: [00:14:05] Tell me a little bit about how your colleagues react?
Jason: [00:14:11] There was shock, I think, genuinely, when they told me they didn't realize what was going on. They were being truthful with me. I was exceptionally good at hiding my addiction. I didn't consume alcohol during the day at work. I was always able to refrain from doing that until I got home. But then I doubled down so they wouldn't have seen me most evenings. And if they did, at a social event, you know, I was a fairly gregarious out, you know, outgoing, outspoken guy when I was drinking but friendly. Alcohol didn't sour my mood. Usually alcohol made me more social. So they didn't, I think, pick up on it. Or at least not the extent of it. Even today, I don't have lawyers say to me, oh, I knew you were. You know, you were about to go off the precipice. And I'm glad you got some help. I haven't heard that at all from any colleagues. That being said, in my opinion, and based on my 22 years of practice with other litigation counsel from across Ontario and outside of Ontario, it's still my view that alcoholism is the best kept secret in this profession, and mental health related issues are pervasive and pernicious in this profession. And we likely talk about it, less than any other profession.
Tim: [00:15:39] Yeah. I would 100% agree. With all those comments, just as an anecdote of it, I recall. When I was 27 years old, I was kind of a mature student when I started law school, but it was surprising the amount of kind of work hard, play hard attitude that you would see. And, you know, I thank goodness I kind of didn't get pulled into that too much, but it's surprising, um, how much that kind of thing happens, right? Like, I don't think people talk openly about it enough. Your story is certainly a sign for other people to know how they should behave. And maybe what happens if you if you don't get over and get some help and move away from that?
Jason: [00:16:30] It's exactly right. There are many lawyers in our profession who are suffering and hurting. And, you know, I'm often asked, what was it about being a lawyer or what was it like that caused you to develop these conditions over time? And my answer is, well, you know, imagine getting up in the morning and you're immersed in conflict right away. You have court that day. You have to win your case. You've got important meetings. You've got all your obligations as a lawyer, which is usually an extremely full calendar. And you go to work and you have conflict all day. Often, you know, having to argue with lawyers that are as smart or smarter than you are, which increases the pressure and the stress. And then you go home and you have conflict throughout the evening, emails coming in, thinking about what you did that day, what's next, what you have to do for tomorrow, preparation. Uh, all the while, you have extremely high expectations of you by clients and your colleagues all of the time. And when you take that culture of conflict that lawyers existed, and you span it out over 20 or 22 years of a career. It changes you. It affects your blueprint. It changes who you are. And it definitely changed me because I've realized in my sobriety now that the persona that I work so hard to create, as you know, the go to litigator in my region wasn't really me. And at one time I thought I thrived on conflict. And that's what made me excel. And when my cases at any cost, you know, within ethical bounds, I thought that's what made me such a great lawyer, or in part. And I've realized about myself, since I got sober and clean, is that I don't really thrive in conflict. And in fact, I don't like having to deal with conflict. So I've made some important realizations about myself that I let get out of control, or I built falsely during my career to achieve both success as a litigator and success as a firm owner.
Tim: [00:18:50] And do you think it's what it is about the profession you know that most contributes to that kind of problem? Is it the culture? Is it, you know, I think like chicken or egg because I've always thought, um, lawyers are a special kind of breed. Anyways, so it's, you know, you go to law school and, you know, people, there are a lot of people that I've met who are wired differently, but then the practice gets a hold on them. And if they weren't wired differently, it's going to be after, you know, a certain amount of experience because it certainly puts all that kind of pressure on you.
Jason: [00:19:31] It's an excellent point. And, you know, I don't want to make broad, sweeping generalizations, but in my view, lawyers are already inherently high achieving, highly driven, focused individuals, and they bring that into their profession. There's no question about that. It's also an ultra competitive industry. Lawyers, for some reason, are very competitive with each other on all fronts and in all respects. Firms are very competitive with each other for the most part. And for example, when I realized I was experiencing mental health related issues that translated into addiction, the last thing I would ever do is let that be known by the public. I would never speak about it publicly because I was so worried about losing comparative advantage in my marketplace. You know, I couldn't afford for the public to think, well, we can't go to Jason Ward for this case because he's having issues or I couldn't have, you know, colleagues on the other side of files thinking they had some advantage over me because, you know, I was experiencing addiction or mental health related issues. I would never have let that happen. And that's why I kept it so closely guarded. And that's why there continues to be a stigma related to mental health and even male lawyers and emotions. There's still a stigma, that's why it exists. I'm a classic example of why lawyers don't talk about what they may be experiencing related to depression, anxiety, and other types of mental health disorders.
Tim: [00:21:13] Looking back on kind of what you've been through, and now you've had a couple years of disclosure and a couple, you know, a couple of years of talking about substance abuse issues. Do you still feel the same way that people look at it that way, or has some of that been taken away by the comments that people have made to you? Even other colleagues, for example.
Jason: [00:21:37] I think things have changed even in my tenure as a sober, non-practicing lawyer. I think that's largely driven by the younger generation of lawyers, although there's more awareness and talk about it by senior counsel, including at the firms. What I'm concerned about is the senior lawyers at the big firms or the medium sized firms are more doing it for political reasons rather than genuine concern about, you know, managing young lawyers. Because, you know, when I article that one of the biggest firms in the country, you know, damn straight, I was going to be the last one to turn those lights out every single night because that's what you did. And today, I see an emerging groundswell of young lawyers who are detaching from their job. Uh, I'll give you an example. We like many others, employ our students at my firm and we happen to have three at the current time. And you know, when I came into sobriety, I would observe these students leaving at 4:30 in the afternoon and they wouldn't respond to emails. This started to happen when I was practicing too. They would successfully detach from their phones, and I couldn't conceive of that notion. I couldn't even process how these young lawyers who got a job at a firm and who I thought would want to excel and become partners and follow that traditional model that we practiced in. It was inconceivable to me that they wouldn't respond to the, you know, the head lawyer's email at night about something that needed to be done that night or the next morning, because that's how I practiced, and I think that's more commonplace now. And I think we're headed to a cataclysm in this profession, where these firms and these more established lawyers realize the traditional model for practicing is not sustainable.
Tim: [00:23:42] Yeah, I 100% agree with that because I have an associate and when I talk to her, she relays to me that she has a lot of people of her age and vintage that frankly just leaves the practice. If it's not that way, they just basically say, we're not going to accept that traditional model. And in some ways, I think that it's a little bit of a balance of both, right? I mean, I do think it's fine to go home most of the time at 5:00 or whenever. Sometimes you can't do that. Sometimes something comes up, but most that should be the exception, not the rule. Um, but I also think on the other end of it, I've seen people having to leave, let's say, at 3:30 or 4:00 on a Friday afternoon, and you kind of get looked down your nose by a senior partner because they kind of said, well, where's that person going? Like, you know, and I think you're right, there is going to be a reckoning for the profession. And I think there's a good business case to do that that way because it's not sustainable. If we continue on the way that we're doing, I think the reports that have come out have indicated that. Would you agree with that?
Jason: [00:24:54] Yeah, I do agree. I think that's going on. I mean, I've always envied lawyers who can detach when they go home and spend time with their families and put their phone aside. I've been envious of that. But that's not me. I could never do that. I was a 24 over seven lawyer. If you email me at 11:00, it would be rare that you wouldn't get a response from me within minutes all of the time. Uh, that's how I was wired. I couldn't detach. Law for me was a 24 hour cycle. And that's, I think, partly because of how I was trained and how I entered the profession and what the philosophy of the profession was at that time. But I think that is changing. I think that is changing. I don't know what's going to happen because it's going to be very difficult for people like me who own law firms to adjust to that, because our whole mentality is more clients, bill, more, more prestige. You know, work harder until you achieve your goals. And, you know, it's hard for me to understand how the younger lawyers take a different view of the profession. I'm trying. I think I've made some distance on that. But I've got to think there's a lot of other lawyers out there like me who are feeling the same thing.
Tim: [00:26:12] Yeah, I see where you're coming from on that. And I run a small law firm, but the same issues still come up. Maybe it's a little bit of a balance for all of those things because you want to keep it sustainable, but you also don't want to be lax about your workload and that sort of thing. I'm hoping that there's a balance to it in the future that people can find a way to. You know, young lawyers can find a way to feel respected and have their time. And I'm kind of reforming this way. I used to answer a lot more emails than now. Um, I've learned a trick from you. Can you respond to an email and set it to go off the next morning. So I schedule them to go out. Um, that's a really good trick. Or, you know, the message back to say, we'll talk to you in the morning or something like that. I've, you know, tried, unless it's a real emergency. I've really tried to back away from that because otherwise it just almost never ending. It's all consuming that there's always going to be more clients. There's always going to be more work, and if you don't take some of that time, you know, I found that I just don't want to be passing away earlier than my prime, so to speak.
Jason: [00:27:26] Well, that's very progressive, and I think to be able to make that adjustment at this point in your career is commendable. I don't think I could have done it. You're a better person than I am when it comes to managing your professional life. I honestly don't think I could have done it. You know, I was building this persona of if I didn't get back to that person, that person would think less of me as a litigation lawyer. And that infiltrated my entire life. So I had to people please constantly to fuel my own insecurity. And that's part of the problem I had as well. But if you're able to do what you're doing, of course, that's the way. That's the way it should be.
Tim: [00:28:12] I didn't say I'm certainly not. I'm a work in progress, but it's something that you have to work on. Moving on to a couple of questions that I have for you, because this is kind of fascinating. What's interesting about doing these interviews is that every time I talk to somebody, there's always certain things that intrigue me. And I was actually reading on your website, um, of your involvement in several different sports and coaching, and you're a musician as well, and so am I. So I'd be remiss if we didn't take a minute to be nerds on the music front and the sports front. So they tell me a little bit about those kinds of things. I assume those are things that you do that really help you, uh, with your mental health.
Jason: [00:28:59] Well, uh, yes and no. I am a musician. I've been playing in rock bands since I was in high school, but my claim to fame is my brother. My youngest brother. I have two of them. My youngest brother was the lead singer and songwriter for the Canadian band The Strum Bellas.
Tim: [00:29:18] I saw that.
Jason: [00:29:18] Which I hope you've heard of.
Tim: [00:29:20] Yes, absolutely.
Jason: [00:29:21] So I always in my interviews or when I'm talking to anyone, make sure they realize that I taught my youngest brother everything he knows about music. But I have a very musical family. I'm not the only one that is a musician. My entire family loves music and loves engaging in it. Um, and in terms of the sports, yes, I was, you know, I was a quarterback in football, uh, throughout my high school career and early on in university. Uh, you know, traditional hockey player and lacrosse. So rough and tumble, physical sports. I did all those. And then eventually, when I had children, I got into a lot of coaching. Hockey, lacrosse, soccer. I did quite a bit of that as my kids were growing up. So. Yes, I enjoy them. Yes, they're therapeutic for me. Unfortunately, since I got sober, Over. I've lost a bit of motivation or interest in some of the things I used to really enjoy, like playing music.
Tim: [00:30:25] How come?
Jason: [00:30:26] I think it's a number of things. I mean, my diagnosis is major depressive disorder and general anxiety. Tim, I prescribed enough Prozac to zombified somebody, uh, that I take on a daily basis. I'm also now taking a drug called Wellbutrin. I live day to day, day by day. Sometimes it's a challenge for me just to keep myself focused on, you know, completing my daily activities. And frankly, Tim, I do what I call a life. I live a life of amends now where my entire focus in my life is supporting and giving love back to my immediate and extended family members and doing whatever I can throughout the day. Something for them or to support them. And you know, that doesn't come out of my guilt or shame for what I did and how I had to step away from all my success. But I need to do something in my life. I need to, you know, I need to have a purpose and find another vocation, isn't it? I don't think I'm in a position where, you know, I can move to another profession or job and not experience the same things. So living a life of amends gives me some fulfillment and purpose. But, you know, I battle every day with my ongoing mental health issues, and that affects my motivation often, you know, makes it challenging.
Tim: [00:31:58] I hope to hear someday that you get back to that, you know, or at least that the things that you're doing right now are fulfilling for you, right? I think I've seen I've got you on Facebook, and I see you always out doing something for the community. And that's great, right? Because anytime that you're doing something for other people, you have less time to be caught in your own head. And that's really important.
Jason: [00:32:23] I 100% agree with you. And that's exactly how I'm trying to live my life.
Tim: [00:32:30] Well, I appreciate it. And so I always ask that kind of the last question that I ask people, um, is if there was one thing that you could change about the legal profession for the purposes of mental health, or if there's one thing that you think we could do better. What might that be? I know that's a tough question, but just whatever comes off the top of your head.
Jason: [00:32:56] Well, you know, you've sparked something inside me because I've got all kinds of ideas that I'd love to share with somebody higher up who can do something about it, like the Law Society. But it's difficult getting their ear sometimes.
Tim: [00:33:10] Maybe they will listen, I'm not going to assume, but.
Jason: [00:33:13] I hope they watch your show, because that'll help. Uh, no, I've got all kinds of ideas. I mean, I really think we need to better manage how lawyers communicate. You know, no more, uh, email dumps on Fridays. Uh, no more motions than affidavits of documents on short notice. All of that is not necessary. The courts are way behind in how we do everything digitally and virtually. That doesn't help. Judges' expectations on lawyers, I think, need to be adjusted. In Ontario, the Law Society contracts out mental health support or the member assistance program to a very reputable, yeah, very reputable third party who has lots of experience with mental health and counseling and support. The problem is, when I was at my desk in the throes of mental health and addiction, looking at my calendar and seeing motion after motion after fact, and that had to be done with a trial in two weeks with, you know, with client meetings and phone calls fit in there. It wasn't of great assistance for me to talk to a counselor who had no idea what litigation lawyers do and what kind of a life we have. So what would have been more helpful is to have a more peer to peer approach, maybe on top of the clinical counseling services to help me put a pause on my life just so I could realize there's an opportunity to take a breath and get some help. Yeah, because I failed to realize that until I went off the cliff. But if someone had stepped in and said, well, yeah, you've got this motion, but I'm sure we can adjourn it. I know that lawyer. Let's make a call. I'm sure we can give you another month on this, and let's do that with this file and this file, and I'm going to help you do that and guide you, because I couldn't have done that myself. That might have given me some breathing room to get some help sooner.
Tim: [00:35:14] I think that it is an incredible idea to have a peer to peer person. For example, I don't know if you if you are aware of Dan Lucas, who does lawyers with depression in the US and he is um, I'm going to get this wrong, but he works in Buffalo in New York and the state of New York and actually advises the court system there on mental health initiatives and does presentations for them. And he's actually a wellness advisor for that court system. And I think that there's a need for that. When you talk about the peer to peer part, I can think about it multiple times in my own career, and I've been lucky enough to have several good mentors. Um, but every once in a while, even then, you've got something that, you know, it's you got to kind of talk to somebody else out of your own head to say, okay, I've got all these things to do. I have no idea how I'm going to get them done. Other than less sleep and, you know, putting your family on the back burner, which can't be the solution all the time. And burnout. And I think you're right, though, as well-meaning and as professional as the services are, those people who are dealing with it don't understand what it's like. Right. Like, they can give you, generally. They can say to you, you know, work on your box breathing, which I've done before. Try to prioritize things and make sure you get exercise and all those and eat right and all those things. But at the end of the day, when you're staring at a calendar that has all those things which we've all been there before. Something has to give. Right. And I think that that's. Yeah, that's a really, really good idea. So hopefully they'll listen to it and agree with that. And someday we can see where there's actually more peer to peer support. I don't mean there must there's lots of people who are trained in both psychology and the law or have experience in both where they could come in and say, listen. Like I can listen to you as a lawyer and help you figure that stuff out. But then I can also reflect with you on the psychology part of it, because that's important as well. And I think that really helped move the profession forward.
Jason: [00:37:23] 100% agree, and I've got lots of other ideas that I'll share with you at another time.
Tim: [00:37:29] Absolutely.
Jason: [00:37:30] Um, but you know, it. Just as you were speaking, I was thinking about the experience I often had as a lawyer where, you know, I'd be in my robes in a courtroom with a gallery full of people on a case, arguing a motion. And the judge would pause and look at me or the other lawyer and say, I'll give you ten minutes. Go out to the law library and find a case that proves your point. And this was before we were digitized. So you were sent out. You got ten minutes in the law library to try to get through all the Dominion Law reports to find you. Imagine that pressure.
Tim: [00:38:06] Impossible.
Jason: [00:38:07] That's. It's just unbelievable how, uh, you know, the stress and pressure that lawyers can find themselves in. In my view, this profession is one of, if not the most dangerous profession for mental health related issues.
Tim: [00:38:23] Yeah. And I think that not to, you know, always speak positively about the system itself. But I find that sometimes when you have to ask for an adjournment or you have to push something, you've got to really give some pretty good reasons why, and the system itself doesn't really have to do that, just kind of like, well, we've got some other matters we're going to schedule that in. That's pretty harsh. Sometimes when you're, you know, you're either working a whole lot to have something pushed and then you've put all this work into it, or you need a break on it because you're just you're up against it because there's no way you can get these things done. And the system says, well, Mr. Colbert, you know, you've had all this time, you could have. You know, I've been there before. It's definitely. You're right. It's a real challenge. And I think there are certain breaking points where I think that, you know, the profession cannot handle going that same way without more people burning out. And I think everybody's going to be on board. From the law societies to the judges to the lawyers and to everybody to basically say, like, we're all on the same page here, that that we're going to make sure, like, you know, I don't have to I don't have to kind of spill my guts to someone to say, hey, I might need to ask for an adjournment here. And when they say why, you say, well, personal reasons. Right? You're not going to bring that bell every day. But sometimes it legitimately happens where you're just there's no other choice. But that's a tough one, right? Because you've got clients that are talking to you from one hand saying, how could. How can you do that? My matter is really important. You've got a judge that says, I've got a docket, and you're not even going to get back in for two years, and you've got another lawyer who will probably throw you under the bus for just being human. So it's definitely yeah, I can see those challenges. So I think the one on one peer support is a really, really good idea. So. All right. Well, thank you very much for speaking with me. And, uh, we'll talk to you soon.
Jason: [00:40:33] Yeah. Thank you Tim, I've enjoyed it. And I am grateful that you are doing this and putting yourself out there to raise awareness, reduce the stigma. I think it's wonderful. And I wish there were more lawyers like you.