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We need a new definition of success—one that harmonizes meaning and money.
Imagine diving into your workday with renewed energy, leaving behind the exhaustion or dread of a monotonous grind.
Traditional beliefs about success and the root cause of burnout are the same:
Prove yourself.
Work harder.
Take care of the business, and it will take care of you.
We’re recycling the mindset and practices that keep us stuck. Our souls need a jumpstart into The Age of Humanity.
Tune in for a new way of working that honors our nervous system and the bottom line, using knowledge of the brain, the Bible, and business. We’ll discuss timeless truths that amplify growth, ignite change, and reshape the world of work. No corporate speak or business BS. Let’s get to the heart of a rewarding career and profitable growth.
We speak human about business.
What’s in it for You?
Value, Relevance, and Impact (VRI): No, it's not a new tech gadget—it's your ticket to making your work genuinely matter to you and your company.
Human-Centric Insights: We prioritize people over profits without sacrificing the bottom line. Think less "cog in the machine" and more "humans helping humans."
I'm your host, Rebecca Fleetwood Hesson, your thrive guide leading you into the new Age of Humanity. I’ve navigated the highs and lows of business and life, from achieving over $40 million in sales, teaching thousands of people around the world about leadership, trust, execution, and productivity to facing burnout, divorce, raising a couple of great humans (one with ADHD), and navigating the uncertainty of starting a business.
I’m committed to igniting change in the world by jumpstarting business into profitable growth with the timeless truths of our humanity.
Sound crazy? It’s only crazy until it works.
Hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and leave a review to help other listeners discover our show.
Want insight and advice on your real career and business challenges? Connect with me on social media or email me at rebecca@wethrive.live. Your story could spark our next conversation.
[00:00:00] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Welcome back to the Business Is Human Podcast. I’m your host, Rebecca Fleetwood Hession, and we’re here to bring you episodes that blend meaningful work with profitable success here to steward what I call the Age of Humanity. I believe if we transform the way we work, we can transform the way that we live. As always, my friendly request, if you like what you hear, hit subscribe so you don’t miss any episode and leave a review to tell the other humans that they might like it too. Always looking to help you and connect with others. Alright, let’s get into it, shall we? Welcome back to the Business Is Human Podcast. And if you are watching this, maybe from YouTube where they get published as video, you get to see Olive the Office dog, snooze in the background.
[00:00:58] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And if you’re not, you’re just audio. Well, just trust me when I tell you she’s cute. Alright, I did a thing. I made a thing because honestly, you’re not a coach or a consultant or writing a book if you don’t create a new four-box model. And I’ve been working on a couple of them and one of them is ready to share. I’m excited about it. I’ve used it in a couple of keynotes. I’ve used it with several clients and it’s good. I’m just going to tell you right now, it’s a good one. So it’s called the Humanity Quadrant. I know the name’s kind of lame, but it describes it well, and sometimes I’ve been known to name things a little too creatively that don’t make any sense to what they really are, and I’m working to be better at that. So here we go.
[00:01:47] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Now I see this as, and it’s still early in its development, so it’s probably going to get better and better, but in its infancy, we’ll call it a toddler. I think it’s just learning to walk. It might fall down a couple of times until it gets learning how to run, but it’s both a leadership tool, something that you can use to have great conversations with others that you’re leading. And it is a tool that can be used for anybody in any role to help guide yourself. So I guess that would be called a self-development tool. I don’t know. So it’s both. I can use this to make decisions for myself. Whatever you want to call that, feel free to help me name it. And how can we use it to help lead others managers and leaders? So it’s a lens for how to respond in a myriad of ways.
[00:02:40] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And honestly, that’s the hardest part of tools like this that have a broad application because people like to be spoonfed details about specific things and most of my stuff doesn’t do that. So here we are. It really boils down to a lot of the things that we talk about here. Like all of our thoughts come from either love or fear. So it helps break that down and have discussions and know which you’re operating in. It ties into the difference between striving and thriving. It ties into the reality. It just is what it is. That business by nature creates a lot of competitive mindset. And I covered competition and culture a few episodes ago. If you want to scroll back on your Spotify, iTunes and find that. But because we live predominantly in a competitive mindset in business, which is really rough on our nervous system, there’s a lot of scanning for is it right or is it wrong?
[00:03:49] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And sometimes it’s not that clear and simple and we need other ways to have conversations. And so I’m just going to dive into it and I would love you to message me with any feedback that you have. But let’s start with some language setting. Because we have predominantly been in a competitive business mindset, we tend to use business terms for our humanity, which isn’t at all helpful. You’ve probably seen the memes and the funny videos making fun of using your business language at home and with your kids and how silly it sounds. But listen, I used to be that person and still am a little bit. So it is what it is. But we need words that speak to our humanity that really address who we are as humans and our nervous system and all of the things, our identity as a human versus our identity tied up in performance and business results.
[00:04:55] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So let’s start with worth or worthiness. Worth is unchanging. It is your humanity. You don’t earn it. You have it because you are alive. And I think that’s the part of my love of Bible teaching is that we don’t have to earn God’s love and protection and mercy. It’s a gift. And we have this mindset from business that everything has to be earned. There has to be some sort of exchange for everything. And that’s not true. So worth is, yay, you woke up today and we’re so glad you’re here. It means that even the person who made the worst mistake ever, the your company in your house, you still has the same worth as the very top performer every day. It is the level setting of humanity that God us to come back to. This is not airy fairy. Woo. This is real. If you want to look it up from a biblical perspective, Psalm 1 39 tells us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made and our worth was settled, decided before we ever even took that first breath.
[00:06:15] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So the more we in business can ground ourselves in this definition of our humanity that everyone has worth, no matter what last quarter results said or how long they’ve been with the company or what they wore to the company party, everybody has worth. The next term I want to get really clear on is value. Value is our unique design. Look at your hands, look at your fingerprints. They’re different than someone that might be sitting next to you or you’re going to see in your next meeting. And so understanding that our value is our unique gifts, talents, experiences, personalities, perspective. We are unique down to our fingerprints on purpose for a purpose. So we are supposed to be different and not everyone brings the same value, and that’s supposed to be that way. That’s how teams are supposed to work. So if everyone on the team was exactly the same, that’s frightening, but yet we still use that competitive mindset and perspective too often comparing Jim to Joe and Sally to Susie, and we’re supposed to be different.
[00:07:42] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: We’re supposed to see things differently. So value is what you uniquely contribute to the team, the company, the project, whatever it is. And the next term is honor. Honor is how we recognize and respond to each other’s worth and value. It’s not flattery, it’s not manipulative praise, it’s not shame, it’s not over the top word. Honors is being very real. It’s how we build trust and safety with one another. If you want to look it up biblical, there’s a scripture in Romans 1210 that says outdo one another in showing honor, not in competitive ways, but in who can honor the other the most. This is the thing that we should be working from a competitive perspective who could honor your team the most? That’s really the blueprint for the way our humanity and our nervous system. And God designed us to see ourselves, see one another and to interact with one another.
[00:09:02] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So I want you to have those definitions, put those in your pocket because they show up in this quadrant in this four-box model. So let’s get into the four-box model, shall we? So picture it, simple, four-box grid on one side we have to the left and the right is right and wrong. So think of right on the right side and wrong on the left side, meaning our performance, our behavior, and going up and down vertically we have at the top is honor. And at the bottom it could be called dishonor, but really what dishonor is a shame and a shame is a strong word, but it is how we experience dishonor in our nervous system. So we might as well just tell it like it is. You know what I’m saying? So this gives us four possible ways that things can go.
[00:10:05] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So let’s walk through each one. Now if we go to wrong and honor, so the top left-hand quadrant mistakes happen, you’re not really putting in a lot of effort and innovation if you’re not running into mistakes. That’s just reality. Unfortunately, too often we try to hide mistakes because we’re ashamed of them or we’re afraid we’re going to get in trouble or whatever the reason is. So I want to build the conditions where we can truly thrive and use our mistakes to learn and grow. And so even though we all blow it sometimes in this top left-hand square of the model your worth or the person you’re talking to, if you’re using it as a leadership tool, the person’s worth is never in question, never. We’re going to have a conversation, we’re going to learn and we’re going to grow from it. And so if you know the VRI model, value, relevance, and impact, this shows up in here as well.
[00:11:22] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Again, I said value is our unique contribution. Who we are uniquely relevance is how we use our value, how we show up and make a difference, make our value matter. And an impact is what were the results? What were the results, human to human and what were the results to the metrics of the business? So in this top left-hand corner, when something goes wrong and we’re responding with honor, what’s likely happened is we missed relevance. We either didn’t understand the expectations or we just missed that our unique value connected to something that was relevant to the project or the person or the situation. And when that happens, then you’re not going to get the impact that anybody wanted. We missed, we swung and we missed. But their value, we’re still going to honor that their unique value matters. They’re still a good unique human that we are honoring and so glad that they are continuing to show up.
[00:12:30] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So from a neuroscience perspective, this approach keeps our nervous system regulated. We don’t have to freak out about our worth. Did we make a mistake? Yeah, that sucks, but we’re going to learn from it and we’re being honored that we’re still an honorable, intact, valuable human. So the brain then stays safe. And when our brain stays safe, then we can be curious and ask more questions about, well, what should I do next time? Where do you think I missed? What do you think are our expectations? Okay, we’re having a really lovely human honoring exchange about the mistake so we can stay safe. Which then once we’re safe, then we can be curious and connected and we can get creative about, okay, how are we going to handle this now that something didn’t go well? And if we’re doing bible connection, Galatians six, one says, restore gently.
[00:13:32] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Jesus corrected people. He corrected people that treated him like crap. He corrected people and treated them with honor when they said they didn’t even know him or wanted to kill him, he is the model, but he always did it in a way that brought it back to relationship and purpose. He honored their humanity. So let’s just run through an example. Let’s say that your marketing lead missed a campaign deadline. So instead of blasting them in a group meeting, what do you mean we missed the deadline? You just pull them aside and you say, Hey, let’s talk about it. Okay, that’s a great place to start because when somebody makes the mistake, they feel bad. Usually the good ones do, Hey, are you okay? I know we missed that deadline. What’s going on? How can I help you? And then have an honoring conversation that shows them that they’re still safe because if we don’t, we shut down their nervous system and then they aren’t able to even work with you to fix it.
[00:14:40] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: We got it. It’s top left, wrong, honor. Now let’s go to the top right, which is things go right and we’re going to handle that with honor. This is just as important if we want to continue to help people stay in a place of intrinsic motivation where they are using their value in more bold and creative ways. And so the top right is about healthy both accountability and affirmation of their humanity and their value. Because when we just affirm people’s results, they’re afraid to talk about their mistakes or when they don’t get the results because they’ve been shown that they’re only valuable, they’re only honored when they are producing great results. And it is an unrealistic expectation that every human is going to always produce great results. And the risk is that people are so locked into their identity about results that they’re willing to do things that aren’t really in alignment with what you would want them to do, honoring the company values or integrity or even the law to hit the goal.
[00:16:07] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It causes some wacky behavior sometimes that people are willing to sacrifice their own integrity and the companies in order to make sure they don’t miss. And we don’t need that. That’s not going to help us. So in that top right hand box, we are affirming their human unique value. And what it does is, again, it keeps their nervous system regulated, it shows them that they are secure and that you are aligning to their worth, their value and their impact, their value, their relevance, and the impact. I’m telling you, DRI is brilliant if I do so myself in terms of intrinsic motivation. So the neuroscience of treating someone that does something right with honor is that we still get a great dopamine and oxytocin spike here. Those are the chemicals that build trust, that build motivation and connection. It’s like high five, great job. And the great job then is attached to their unique value, not just the results.
[00:17:21] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: We’ll come back to an example in just a second. The Bible says spur one another on toward love and good deeds. High five, good job. I’m excited. I love who you are. An example is you don’t just say great job on the sales numbers or great job closing the deal. You say, Hey, your ability to connect with customers is why we are seeing this kind of growth and the impact that it’s having on the clients with our solutions or our products is phenomenal as well as it’s helping us hit these revenue numbers, which is what we need in the company to sustain this level of greatness. Thank you for being who you are. Isn’t that beautiful? Doesn’t that hit your feels way more than great job being 120%, which just leaves you feeling like a number. I wasn’t sure if I was going to tell this story, but here we are.
[00:18:17] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And I spent a lot of time in a sales role where I hit the numbers and I got lots of glass awards celebrating my performance. And I would go to fancy award shows and I would go buy a new outfit and I would be taken to some, not always, but great beach location with my colleagues and whoever you brought as a guest. And it was good to be rewarded. And there are times that the award would trigger my sense of, well, now I just got to figure out how to sell even more next year. And before I would even get the award on stage, I would be feeling kind of that I wasn’t sure if I could do it again next year because there wasn’t enough affirmation to who I was, not just where I sat on the sales report. I could tell you my number on the sales report every single day.
[00:19:25] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: If I had to scroll down one page on my email, I was failing because it meant I wasn’t in the top 14 or whatever. And so my worth value started to feel like it was attached to my place on the sales report. And a few times the company awards after we would celebrate with some cocktails, I tried to give my award to a guy in the elevator one time. He was like, oh my gosh, you got an award because these were big glass awards. You got an award. And usually we’d been flown there and they were heavy. And then I had to figure out a way to get ‘em home and it just became a burden on my heart and in my suitcase, I just wanted somebody to say, Hey, I’ll ship that to you. That would’ve helped. And on my most burdensome days, I would think, how much did this glass of word costs just send me the money?
[00:20:21] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And those were this bittery burdensome thoughts that they didn’t always happen. But if it had been a particularly hard year, and I’d finally crawled bloody knees over the finish line to hit my a hundred whatever percent. And then I was faced with a five, 10, 15% increase on next year. And I was standing there holding this heavy glass award standing in an elevator after too many Manhattans thinking, now I got to get this damn thing home. And this guy was like, oh my gosh, congratulations. That’s a great award. And I was like, you want it? And I tried to hand it to him. I said, you can just pretend like you got it. Let’s like make up a great story. He laughed and he was like, well, aren’t you excited? I said, I’m just trying to figure out how I’m going to get it home. And then I went back to my room and I felt bad again, feeling bad about myself after winning an award because of the way I responded to feeling bad about it.
[00:21:21] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So we don’t want that for our top performers. We just don’t want that. And so the more that we can on a regular basis, not just on the quarter and not just at the end of the fiscal year, show them through our words and our actions and our affirmations of who they are as a human, not just a celebration of their performance. Okay, let’s drop down into the bottom two quadrants, which are a little more on the left. Bottom left is when things go wrong and shame. So honors at the top, shame is at the bottom. This is the dark danger zone. And this is where there’s reprimand, something went wrong, but there’s not enough clarity. It feels like your identity was attacked instead of the actions being corrected. So instead of talking about the relevance and the impact and what got missed, it’s more about the conversation of your lack of worth who you are is wrong.
[00:22:32] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And so it’s not just that my work is bad, I’m bad. It’s that feeling. And so again, this tool can be used to affirm for yourself or use it as a leadership opportunity. Now, because we want to always be tapping into intrinsic motivation, it’s important that we get really clear on our value and not wait on someone else to tell us who we are. And so if we’re using this grid for ourselves and something goes wrong, you make a mistake like every human on the planet is going to do from time to time, and you are feeling like not just that the work was bad, but you are bad, this is the opportunity to pause and to get really reflective in a loving kind way to yourself. If you can’t get there on your own, this is where you need to elicit the help of a trusted colleague that can hold up the mirror and help you see your value or a coach like me or somebody else that you would connect with.
[00:23:52] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And I’m going to be really honest. If it’s perpetually a problem, then it might be good to find a therapist that can help you think through what’s happening or what has happened in the past that has caused me not to be able to see my worth. And I don’t know anything better than the Bible to help with that. And so maybe it’s just grabbing a devotional or Bible and digging in and realizing that you don’t have to earn your worth. It is here for you every single day. I don’t want anybody to live in this quadrant, but I know people do. And so this is a chance to be able to say, okay, maybe I need some help with this. Maybe I need somebody that can help me work through this. Because from a neuroscience perspective, when we feel that we are bad, not just that we made a mistake, shame lights up the amygdala, which is the threat center of our brain, and it shuts down our ability to solve the problem.
[00:24:56] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So now, not only did we do something wrong, when we are ashamed, we turn off the ability to make it better, to fix it. And as I said, biblically, the Bible is very clear that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So Jesus would never, ever shame you for making a mistake. And I don’t want you to do that to yourself either. Jesus would say, you are worthy. I love you. Let me help you. And if you can learn to say that to yourself, everything changes. Everything changes. I promise. A business example of this would be, oh, this is a harsh one, but I know it happens and there are varying degrees of this, but I had to come up with something. When a leader sends a error, manager sends a vague critical email about a mistake that was made that was very, everybody on the team or everybody knows who made the mistake, but the manager doesn’t call that person out, but everybody really knows who it was and they copy the whole team with no context, no, here’s what we’re going to do about it.
[00:26:08] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That should have been a one-on-one conversation. And then if it needed to be communicated to the team, it would’ve been with, here’s how we’re handling it. Yeah, there’s 800 better ways to do that. There’s other examples of this one for sure. Okay, bottom right-hand corner. This one freaks me out a little because of so many people that I know and I used to be this person a bit too drop down into this quadrant a fair amount and it surprises people. This is where things go, right? But there’s still shame. There’s still a lack of honor. It’s when someone is doing great work, but either themselves, how they see themselves or the culture still makes them feel like they’re never enough. There’s either a constant moving of the target or the expectation leaders. Sometimes I’m going to say unintentionally because I’m going to give people grace, but it actually happens intentionally more often than I like to admit.
[00:27:10] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: But they push high performers too far. This has happened to me. I have done it to people. When you know someone’s great and when you know they’re going to be willing to do whatever it takes to succeed, when you are in fear of meeting the goal or meeting the expectation because you got to report to your boss or you just want to win or whatever the motivation is for you, we can really overload those top performers. Oftentimes, after I had already hit my goal, I was incented with a spiff spiff sales performance incentive. Could you do more insinuating that I was slacking before? Hated those. We will give you X amount of dollars, we’ll give you a gift certificate to this. And then you start to just feel like you’re never going to produce enough. And again, sometimes it’s unintentional, but sometimes I think people know that their top performers are hurting or struggling and they still do it out of their own fear.
[00:28:20] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And the worst one, which is a fast track to burnout. If you want burnout, this is the way to get it super fast, is to be a top performer that’s never really honest with themselves or others about your capacity. Just keep saying yes, just keep saying yes and then keep sacrificing yourself to achieve. That’s your fast track to burnout right there. So from a neuroscience perspective, chronic activation lives here. Your nervous system is on fight flight mode on a regular basis. And eventually top performers either quit and move on to another organization and get recruited away is often a part of that, or they just, their nervous system wins because it always will and they lose the capacity to get those results consistently. And so they just start to coast doing enough to get by because they’re in survival mode because their nervous system is in shutdown.
[00:29:20] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: There are two really sad realities about that. Mine ended up with burnout. I didn’t even know that I was in this cycle until I was so sick I couldn’t leave my house for two months because my nervous system said, Nope, we done. We need a break and I got one for two months. The other thing that happens is when those high performers quit or get recruited away, either way they quit. But whether they quit on their own or someone comes in and invites them to their company, they take those same core habits with them and they’re going to end up in the same place. They think it’s a fresh start. They think it’ll be better at this new organization. But the problem often isn’t the organization or the boss. It’s your beliefs about your worth and your feeling of shame. If you’re not always saying yes and always sacrificing yourself to get better, I don’t have to do that.
[00:30:14] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And so this one makes my heart hurt. I’m a feeling of physical reaction in my body right now talking about it. One, because it was a big part of my story, and two, because I would say that it is well over 50% of the clients that I work with and have worked with in the past. And if I can’t get them to see themselves that their identity isn’t in their production or their performance, it’s a bad path. And people suffer that. Not only do they suffer, but their families suffer and their kids start to believe that that’s the way their life needs to be. So they need to be achievers too. And the ripple effect of it, we think it’s going to be like, if I’m successful, everything’s going to be okay. And sometimes the way we do success ends up causing more harm than good.
[00:31:06] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So I’m getting emotional talking about it. Jesus says, come to me all you who are weary and I will give you rest. Constant striving without rest is not the way we were designed. Not only does the Lord not want it for you, but your nervous system, it ain’t going to hang with you. I don’t care how superhero badass you think you are, that was me. Yeah, ego, ego and pride you. So business example, I’ve already talked about it a couple of times, different ways, but if a person crushes their goal at 120% and they don’t celebrate it, they just feel like, how am I going to get 130% next quarter? Or how am I going to get whatever revenue number that is that next quarter, blah, blah, blah. Not good. So as I wrap all this up for you, neuroscience polyvagal theory specifically says that the nervous system is always scanning for cues of safety or danger.
[00:32:04] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Not just physical safety, but relational safety. Am I okay? Do I belong here? And so honoring your humanity, honoring unique value, not just results is important. So honor sends this cue that you’re safe and shame sends the danger, and you can’t perform at your best when your brain thinks you’re in danger. So even if you’re doing great work, but you think, oh my gosh, I got to do better. If I don’t do better, I’m going to be in tremble. You can’t sustain that. You’re cutting off some of your IQ by doing that. You’re cutting off your intelligence and you’re cutting off your relational abilities. So leaders, we have the power to keep people in a state of connection by making sure they feel safe, which then creates more innovation it, it’s collaboration, all the good stuff. Or we can intentionally or unintentionally push them into survival mode where they are just trying not to get fired or trying to survive their own standards and expectations.
[00:33:12] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I hope you choose to use this tool. It is designed to tap into you honoring who you are as a human and your unique value, and then bringing to the jar to be the most relevant, impactful you can. So there’s consistency in the way the Bible talks about this and the way neuroscience talks about this that cannot be denied. It’s literally telling the same story, saying the same things. And so I want us to come to business speaking truth, but doing it in love and honoring, without condemning, without creating any sort of shame. I truly believe this. There’s no reason it can’t happen, is that instead of business being a burnout machine or the capacity to create burnout quickly, I know that work and business can be a place for healing. When we use our leadership to help hold up the mirror and honor people’s worth and value, we can restore them in beautiful, beautiful ways that actually not only make their lives better, but give us phenomenal business results.
[00:34:38] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So separate the performance from the person, clarify when they missed relevance and impact and ask, what do you need from me? How can I help you? That’s what you do when things aren’t going well. And when someone is doing really well, celebrate with them. But connect it to honoring who they are as a human and being realistic about their capacity and not letting our own fear of hitting or not hitting results allow us to push high performers into a bad place. And if that bottom right hand quadrant resonate with you, I don’t want you to feel like excellence is a trap. It’s not. And if you want to work together, I’d love to help you. So here’s a few questions that you can take with you or reflection questions. Here’s one, when I correct someone, do I protect their worth and value? Simple question based on our conversation today.
[00:35:36] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Second one is, do my high performers feel secure? Or like they’re constantly proving themselves. Third, what’s one recent situation where I could have restored honor but I didn’t? Because it helps to look back and then ask, how can I do this better next time? And the final one is, am I connecting feedback to someone’s unique value consistently? Do I have a top performer that I need to go and really affirm their unique value for them? It’s a beautiful conversation. So look back on your last three pieces of feedback or conversations you had with people and see where you landed. And then choose one honor based feedback phrase that you can use this week. Alright, y’all, love you mean it. Hope that’s helpful. And if it is, or if you need more clarity and understanding, like I said, this new tool is a toddler, and I’d love your help and how to make it better. Make it a great day. Thanks for being here. You can follow us on Instagram. Business Is Human or TikTok. Rebecca Fleetwood Hession. It’s a great way to share some of the clips with your colleagues and friends. All right, make it a great day. Love you mean it.