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The Disability And…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
56 Disability and…Mental Health
INTRO
Welcome to a Disability and...podcast, bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate. This month, Mind the Gap’s Associate Producer Paul Walshaw chats with artist and activist James Leadbitter, a.k.a. the Vacuum Cleaner, about his work around the topic of mental health, his work abroad, and how the arts help support people's mental health. This podcast contains some strong language.
Paul Wilshaw
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Disability and...podcast. Today I am interviewing the great James Leadbitter. Today we will be talking around the topic of mental health. So if you find that topic, is going to be hard for you, please turn off now because we want everyone's mental health to be in a safe space. We care about our audiences.
James, thanks so much for coming on today. So, on your website, it says that you make candid, provocative and playful work. Can you just tell us a bit about yourself and how you got started?
James Leadbitter
Firstly, just thanks for having me on and like shout out to Mind the Gap, like a lot of love for you guys. Yeah. Provocative, playful and candid. I think that's my approach to mental health. Basically, like provocative because I think it's not contentious to say that mental health care as a system, not the individuals within it, but the system has always failed people. We have to be willing to be really explicit in calling that out and challenging that failure and that, you know, sometimes we have to be provocative about that because that's a fight for justice, like all disability justice movements. Like, we can't be shy about that.
Playful because I think being disabled and I think particularly around mental health, it can be really hard and it literally can be depressing, right? So, I think that the playfulness is really important. But I also think that, like I know a lot of like my crip friends, my disabled friends, we like being funny about our disability, it is funny. Like, our bodies and minds are funny. And so that, that joy and playfulness is really important.
And then the candidness is like the ability to be close and tender, because things can be challenging, things can be hard and our body and minds can be difficult. And, you know, we're proud of who we are. Of course we are. But also, like we have to come together and have those candid moments and candid conversations and not be afraid to be honest about what we're going through and what we've been through and how perhaps systems might treat us or even individuals sometimes. You know, when you experience ableism from an individual like, yeah, those three words kind of some up my personal approach to mental health as an artist and as an activist as well.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I think that’s so true around that whole thing that our brains do kind of play games as well. But it also there is some fun stuff around it at the same time. And yeah, I mean I have depression, I am on medication for it and I have had situations with my doctor that we can go into later but I think it is hard also for doctors and stuff to actually recognise what's actually a learning disability and what’s actually mental health as well. There seems to be a confusion. Do you feel that James as well?
James Leadbitter
That’s a really, really good question because I don't think I would, for myself, use the term learning disabled. However, I would use the term neurodiverse and I think this is a big Venn diagram, things about this intersection between all these things anyway. So somebody told me a statistic that's really interesting, that over 50% of people who were in mental health hospitals also have some form of autism diagnosis. And I'm like, yo, that's really shocking. Like, clearly there are forms of structural ableism that mean that a lot of autistic people and neurodiverse people are also then struggling with their mental health. So like how systems are designed to exclude them disabled and neurodiverse people.
But I think like when the world is not designed for you, of course that's going to impact how you feel about yourself. Of course. And of course you're going to experience anxiety or you're going to feel low self-esteem or low mood or, you know, that might evolve into complex traumatic things or hearing voices or seeing things like it doesn't surprise me. It makes me sad that so many neurodiverse and learning disabled people also have that intersection with mental health. But then equally, I think there's also some people that don't have that intersection as well. It's like it's always infinitely complex.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, definitely.
James Leadbitter
In terms of like how you talk to doctors. So you define as a learning disabled person?
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I've got learning disabilities and cerebral palsy. That's how I define myself.
James Leadbitter
So when you're talking to doctors, medical staff, is it hard for them to understand that you might be learning disabled and also have mental health struggles?
Paul Wilshaw
I had one situation. I don’t mind going into this now. At the time, I was having suicidal thoughts. I went into my doctor's surgery and I was told well you don't have much to live for anyway.
James Leadbitter
No dude!
Paul Wilshaw
Yep. That’s what a doctor said to me once.
James Leadbitter
I'm really sorry. Like just to acknowledge that that's really messed up. I know you live with this stuff and you cope, but it's also just really like, that's really messed up and I'm really sorry that that happened.
Paul Wilshaw
You know. But at the time I just had to laugh about it as well because I was like, this is even more messed up then my own head.
James Leadbitter
But do you know what I mean? It’s like a really messed up channel four comedy. Like, so I used to have this idea about making a really messed up, like, channel four comedy where it's like all this shit that doctors say to people and then you take it to Channel four and they go, it's too extreme, it's too far. This is just reality of what we're being told.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, it's great because I now do role play for clinical psychology students as well. And that’s a really interesting time for me because I'm like, it’s me getting my own therapy when I’m doing it. It’s kind of like, that's interesting and I'm hoping that it's going to help the system change.
James Leadbitter
Well, also it's a really nice gift for you to give to like that form of activism where we are using our own experiences as tools to educate, you know, people that exist within an ableist structure, that's incredible to do that work.
Paul Wilshaw
You have done a show and you said about the system not being made by us. So I'm really interested about ‘Madlove: A Designer Asylum’. I'm really interested about that project and how that came about. And what major themes came out of that project?
James Leadbitter
I like to call it a process rather than a project really. Maybe if I talk about it, it'll be clear why I want to make that distinction. I was in hospital, I was in a mental health hospital and a friend visited me and she had never been in a mental health hospital before.
And she was like, dude, like, this place is rank. And I jokingly said, you know, in this situation where you make a joke, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I literally could design something better than this in like 5 minutes. And then, you know, I start doing okay and I'm a bit safer, whatever. And I'm at home and I see that person again maybe a few months later and she's like, you remember that thing that you said to me about like the state of that hospital and how you could do something better? I'm like, not really. I had quite a lot of drugs at the time. But she's like, well, you did say that. It's really stuck with me about that how you said you could make a better hospital. And I said that sounds like the kind of joke I would make. And she's like, well, why don't you do that? And I was like, yeah, you're probably right. And that kind of throwaway comment, it sat with me about like, actually, you know, nothing about us, without us, is for us. Like, we are the experts in our own experiences. You know, why aren’t people that struggle with their mental health designing our own care environments?
And I think that, you know, also fits with some politics that I have around mental health struggles not being a bad thing. They are a natural response to things that happen in our life. So I'm going to use the term madness because that's a term that I like to use. I appreciate that's not for everyone, but like that madness is not a bad thing and it's something that we might all go through in life. So if we're going to have those experiences in life, like madness has always been with us and will always be with us, why punish people? Why not allow people to experience that? And is it possible to experience that in a more kind and caring and gentle way? And then what kind of environments do we want to be in to experience that? For me that kind of seems obvious, right?
So then like, how do we do that? What's that like? And so I can't figure that out. I have to talk to lots of other people. So that process began with a little R&D grant from our good friends, Unlimited. And then that enabled me to go and speak to lots of people. And then that kind of initial conversations, like people were just really drawn to having those conversations and thinking about that. And we came up with a kind of process where we could hold people in that kind of conversation. So asking questions around the senses. So what does good mental health sound like? What does it look like? What does it smell like? What does good mental health taste like? What's it like to touch? So we're really getting into a kind of sensory design response because I think for me, like I can be quite sound sensitive. So I think smell can be really evocative around design and textures and things, so kind of creating a really expansive palette around that. And then working with other mad artists like Hannah Hull and just going out and speaking to lots of people and then in lots of different contexts over like a five year period, really.
So I think we've spoken to over 700 people internationally. We're asking them very simple questions and kind of collating all those responses. And then thinking about how that can become real. So whether that's doing that in an art space by like making proposals, installations, or architectural models, or telling the stories of what we've heard, or equally, you know, we've been really privileged to contribute towards making NHS wards and things in hospitals. So actually impacting on, on a real level how the NHS is, is designing wards. So we've supported architects designing a children's mental health ward in Edinburgh. I was able to contribute to the architectural brief for the Children's Mental Health Board at Great Ormond Street to design features for high security, mental health, hospitals and also just in a lot of like presenting withi, kind of, there's a whole industry around the design of mental health hospitals. So trying to influence that by presenting the research there as well and getting people to think about how they approach the design of those environments in more tender and holistic ways.
So I think one of the important things as an artist is to have really bold, utopian unrealistic ideas, right? Because that's one of the things about art, is that space where you can have big dreams and big fantasies and like it says on the website, you know, this isn't the lunatics taking over the asylum, it's more radical than that. We're proposing that we design build and run the asylums. It’s a silly way to frame it, we're being playful with the language and stuff, but actually like, yeah, disabled people should be running disabled services. Government departments like the DWP and all those parts should have disabled people at the centre of them. The health care system should have people impacted by their conditions, like cancer services should be run by people that you know who have and have survived cancer. Like it's blatantly obvious that that's important.
And what's really fascinating for me is when I want to talk about that as a model, people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if we apply that to other marginalised and oppressed communities, you would never disagree with that. You'd never say that black people shouldn't be like leading black art organisations. But when it comes to mental health and I'm like, mad people should be running mad spaces, people are like no James that’s fucking wild. I’m like ‘is it though?’ Or like is your own internalized ableism labelling me as I’m a stupid person rather than a mad person? Because like you, I’m smart, I know stuff.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, and the whole point is that why shouldn't, we do so many pilot schemes, so why not do that as a pilot scheme and see if it does work? Because so many times that you see these pilot schemes and you're like, yeah, that's not going to work and then you find out it does work.
James Leadbitter
You know what I mean. And I think Mind the Gap is a really good example of that. And I think like everybody's disability is different and our conditions fluctuate. Some days I'm super high functioning, I can send like 50 emails in the day. (I would never do that). But you know what I mean, I can get stuff done. And other days I'm like, wow, I can't even read an email today. And I'm going for a walk with my dog on the beach and I'm going to reprioritise myself. It's not just about like, quote unquote, mad leadership. It's also about processes that are different and they know we can run our own spaces and we do that with our allies, with our non-mad allies and all that kind of stuff. But that means that we have to really slowly, carefully, sustainably invest in what those processes might be like so that we're not harming people on the way. We're not burning people out on the way. But that's also really exciting because it's a whole new different way of working that's fascinating. And actually, when I talk about my access requirements, most non-disabled people say, like, I want a paid rest day, I get exhausted too! I find Euston Station really triggering.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, that’s so true though. I mean, I had the same situation when I was doing a show in Leeds and like we were working with disabled people and we showed them access riders and people were just like, we're in the same situation. We need this. It's like, yes, but why isn't it being rolled out as much? And people just don't know about it. And if you don't know about something, then you're not going to be able to get that process in place.
I want to go on to a project that you, I think it was recently done, that's ‘2.8 Million Minds’ with young people in London. Is that correct?
James Leadbitter
As they would say, in that there London.
Paul Wilshaw
In that they London, love it.
James Leadbitter
People from Bradford would say. ‘2.8 Million Minds’ was a project I did with Chisenhale Gallery with Seth from Chisenhale, Seth’s an amazing creator and producer, Bernie Grant Art Centre in Tottenham, which is like a world class black arts centre, and Whitechapel Art Gallery, which is like one of the big London galleries, and it was commissioned by the Greater London Authority, by the mayor's office, and they really wanted to know about, it was kind of like a research project really, to understand how art can be beneficial for young people's mental health.
Young people's struggles with mental health are massively increasing, like lockdown specifically accelerated that. The impacts of COVID and lockdown on people has been really profound. I'm not just to be really clear, I'm not saying that lockdown wasn't important. Like I'm not a COVID denier or anything, but there were other impacts of that, obviously. And I think young people were not considered in that process and people’s mental health were not considered in that process. So Claire Lovett from the GLA who was lead on that, kind of really smartly took a bit of a risk because when they asked me to apply and I put this little consortium together with Becky my producer of arts organisations, the ones I just mentioned, and my approach to it was like, you know, GLA is like, it's the government, these big organisations. Like, are they really going to be that radical? And I think Becky was like, well, you tell them what you want to do and let's just see what happens. And I was like, well, we have to respect young people's knowledge, like disabled people. Young people also have really good experience and knowledge, and we have to respect that.
And so I was like, what happens if we try to centre young people's knowledge and experience to come up with models or practice or approaches or processes of making art that kind of imagine the kind of support that they might want around art and mental health. So that research period is finished now. But we kind of made a few things and commissioned some other artists. So we commissioned four other artists to work with young people in Tower Hamlets and Haringey. We commissioned a lot of people to work with a lot of young people and really to ask those young people like, what kind of art do you want to make? How do you want to be held in those processes? And that led to us making a manifesto that we presented at the Houses of Parliament and also at Liberty Festival.
And then also like last year we did another process just kind of trying to bed in some of that knowledge which led to a sharing that we did, a little kind of work in progress sharing at White Chapel Art Gallery. So yeah, it's been like a really, like intense wild journey and at the same time as doing that in London I've also been running a parallel project in Manchester as well under a different name, but like just trying to understand how we can support young people to make art around their mental health really and what's important to them. And how do you do that? Because I think there's a lot of knowledge around like art therapy, but in terms of like getting thirty young people from Tower Hamlets that might not have any artistic training to make something for White Chapel Gallery, which is this big, prestigious gallery, critically important institution is a different thing. So how do we support those young people to do that? What did they want to do on that process? So yeah, we're just kind of beginning to think about how we merge all that together into a thing, into kind of like a national approach to young people and just kind of touch on what young people were saying.
Like firstly, young people are really angry. They feel really let down and really angry with adults. They’re really angry with adults. They're like, you know, we're not getting the support we need. Like you’ve gone out there into the world and said, like, it's time to talk. That's the message. And it's like yeah to who? A two year waiting list, are you for real guys? And then you don't give us the support we need, you don't do early intervention and then things get really bad for us and then you section us, we get taken into mental health hospitals, we’re drugged against our will. So they're angry with the education system. You know, they're angry with government for not providing funding. They're angry with my generation for climate change. Rightly so. So that anger is really valid. So part of the process that we really discovered is about creating space where they can be angry and they can make art about that and that rage is valid and you know, they're allowed to feel that and we have to hold that for them.
But they also want to be in spaces that validate their experiences so they can be with other young people and they can talk about what they've been through and they can write about that. You know, they can do illustrations, whatever, like material they want to make where they can tell, like, I've been through some shit and they can be with other young people and say, like, I see you, I hear you, I've also been through that and I validate you and you're not a bad person.
One of the really beautiful things we did, it wasn't on ‘2.8’. It was in the Manchester process on the ‘Barmy Army Project’. One of the things that just came up in the room was like young people saying to each other, like, you're not the problem. And that became a bit of a slogan for that project where we did a march through Manchester City Centre with 150 young people shouting, “We are not the problem”. And it was just really beautiful just to see all these young people that when I met them, getting them out of their bedrooms was hard. Getting them into a room at Contact Theatre was hard because they were socially anxious. They were like just dealing with so much stuff. And then to see all these young people shouting, “we are not the problem”. It was like, yo, it was so beautiful.
I think one of the difficulties is actually adults, the health service, the education system, young people deserve an apology. And I think like in any kind of restorative process, in any process of healing together, we have messed up these young people's lives. You know I'm 43, my generation and above. We have messed up. And I think like if I went to hospital for surgery and they mess that up, I would get an apology from the NHS. Like when I went through CAMS as a young person and I went through adult services, I experienced real shit. Just say sorry. If we have to heal together, which we do, we always have to, there’s no point healing in isolation. Healing together is really important. Just say sorry and then I can go like, thanks for the apology. I needed to hear that. And I think I can find myself in these meetings with like really senior people in the NHS. And I'm like, dude, can you guys say sorry to some young people? And they'll go like, we hear what you're saying James. And I'm like, it's not about hearing what I'm saying. It's about like doing it. You need to walk the walk here guys. And I find that difficult because I'm also like, I need an apology too, because I've been really hurt in this process as well. So I feel like in a way, we're still, I think a lot of young people and I think the journey that a lot of mental health disabled people, and probably learning disabled people, like you hear those horror stories about inpatient care for learning disabled people, we’re at the point where like, in terms of that restorative justice approach, like we're at the point where we're calling something out and saying like, we're at the table, we're waiting for the conversation, but we're waiting for change and we know what change we need and we know how to imagine that. And we're kind of figuring out how to deliver that. But you can't even come to the table and say sorry to us, like, nah mate, that's not good.
Paul Wilshaw
No. And it's sad, like the whole post office scandal that's happened. It's like, are we going to have to do a show, or a drama, that's going to get our experiences done for these places to actually say sorry? It's like why does it need to take shows and drama. Art is a powerful thing, but it just says a lot around how we are treated and it's so wrong.
James Leadbitter
What I've been trying to do, I think particularly since lockdown, is support young people to have those spaces to tell their stories. It’s really hard because, you know, a lot of their stories are really sad. It's big work, right? But I think my younger self never had that. And I feel like paying that back. I spent a year in hospital, and no artist ever came in to work with me and that would have changed my life. So like, I'm going to pay that back to other young people to like, I acknowledge your pain and harm that my generation has caused you. So, let’s step up and create those spaces where you can make really good art, like world class art, as good as anybody else. It can be at Whitechapel Gallery, it can be at Manchester International Festival because you deserve to be on these stages as well, because you're amazing. You've got stories that are like fucking incredible and you can write songs. That generation are incredibly talented in terms of how they make art. I'm like, wow, like it's time for us to step aside. So I feel like in a way, my job as an artist is about creating the right conditions for young people to make art in a way.
Paul Wilshaw
But also that they need to understand what's gone before as well. Because if they understand what's gone before, then we can change the system. But if you don't know what's gone before, then we're just in a world where they’re going through exactly what we’ve gone through in our experiences in life. And they think they’re starting something completely new. So it's learning that system.
James Leadbitter
It's a really, really good point. And it's something we found out. So the project that I did in Manchester, the ‘Barmy Army Project’, we worked with about 75 young people on that project. It was massive. Well, about two thirds of the way through, we, me and the other facilitators on that process, we were like, it dawned on us that the young people, when we use the term disabled, they didn't know what we meant and actually what we started like, we were meeting up every Saturday at Contact Theatre in Manchester and we were like, ah, actually one of them said to us, like, we didn't get an education in this. You don't get taught about disability in school right, you don't get that education. So we were like, we started doing this thing. So one of the facilitators, Tony de Paul, a phenomenal artist, We started this thing called Tony de Time. Where literally every session Tony would do 10 minutes on ‘this is the social model of disability’. ‘This is the history of mad activism’. Like there's a whole generation of people that have come before you like been fighting on this. This is like different models of disability. This is also a medical model, like some of us might not like that, but it's something you need to know about. Like and this is what disability justice is, this is like a really cutting edge model, and this is what mad pride is and this is like the difference between neurodiversity and mental health and learning disability and how all these things intersect. And Tony de as a black queer working class person, this is how race and disability intersect and you will be in this room with all these young people and you just see their jaws on the floor going like, this is amazing. Like, it's not me that is disabled, it's the system that's disabling me. And you be like in a room with fourteen year olds and they'd just be like, this makes so much sense. It was so beautiful and it's like, it's so basic.
Paul Wilshaw
I totally get where you're coming from there. I'm like you, I know why it's not in the curriculum, but it's so frustrating at the same time. I want to talk about one of your other projects called ‘For them let them...’ I’ve got to get this right
James Leadbitter
‘For They Let in the Light’. It’s all right, as a title it's a mouthful.
Paul Wilshaw
It's not the easiest one to get out, I’ll say that!
James Leadbitter
It's a Groucho Marx quote originally. So the quote is and it’s actually like a term that's used in like mad pride activism so that the quote is ‘blessed are the cracked for they let in the light’ so if something is cracked, light gets into it and it plays on the idea that as a you know, as a mad person, you know, cracking up, you're broken. But actually, that's not a bad thing because you let the light in. So, ‘so blessed are the cracked for the light in the light’. Yeah.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. So that's gone on an international tour?
James Leadbitter
So there's just been a big show at the Migros Museum. The Migros Museum for Contemporary Art in Zurich. They've just had a big international show on the politics of care. So that was disabled artists from all over the world. Really great show actually, I was a bit sceptical about it, but then they actually like, you know, had some really like, big international artists in it. So I felt really privileged to be in there. And before that it was a piece made for Chisenhale Gallery in London.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. I'm just wondering, as you have gone to other countries, what are their experiences around mental health? And like, is there anything that Britain could take from other countries around the mental health system?
James Leadbitter
There's all kinds of just weird stuff all over the world. I think, what we're quite good at in the UK as disabled people, we're quite rowdy. Do you know what I mean? Like we're quite outspoken and I think that that's quite good. And I notice perhaps being in German speaking countries or in like, perhaps in like, in Western European countries, that the conversations that Mad and other disabled people are having is quite outspoken and that's a good thing and we're quite good at that, and I think partly that's why there's an interest in disabled work from the UK.
But equally, the actual health care system here is obviously quite poor. So in Germany or Switzerland, the mental health hospitals in terms of the actual physical environment are a lot better. But equally they have an insurance based health care system, so it's not straightforward what quality of care you get, because that depends on what quality of insurance that you have and what type of employer you have. And there's definitely still like a hush hush attitude around mental health. But perhaps some of that stigma here has been broken down. And I think some of those mainstream charities should be credited for that work that they've done on that.
But I also think some of the really inspiring work I've seen, like I've worked in Indonesia and some of the mental health care in Indonesia is some of the most violent stuff that you can imagine. And some of the responses to that extreme violence from mental health activities is some of the most profoundly beautiful mental health care you can imagine. So working with Hannah Madness and visiting a project in Indonesia that was run by Mad People for Mad People, that was rescuing people who were caged because of their mental health, and sometimes for very, very long periods and going on a journey with those people to rehabilitate them. It's just like the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. It's like all my, vibes about, like mad spaces run by mad people and they're like, I go there and I know they're doing it on a grassroots level. I've just kind of I'm part of a research project and the moment, and I've been connecting with a lot of mental health activists in Ghana and some of the work that, like real grassroots mental health activists are doing there is profoundly beautiful in terms of connecting spirituality and different forms of religion around mental health.
And in England, you might be able to go to somebody like your employer or somebody and say, ‘Actually, I'm struggling a bit with my mental health’. You can go to your GP and do that here. But in some places like, that's not even an option. So how do you, how do you disclosure mental health struggles and have those conversations when the stigma is still really strong and there's the possibility of real social isolation because of that and listening to how mental health activists and mental health professionals and artists are challenging that and beginning to work through that, I'm like, that's really inspiring. So I feel like I'm just beginning to scratch the surface of, what is possible in terms of my understanding and knowledge from a global perspective.
In terms of being an artist, it's the same as you right? You have an access right?
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I have an access rider.
James Leadbitter
And how often do you have to remind people that you have an access rider?
Paul Wilshaw
Well, it's not even reminding them, it's like, have they even read it? Sometimes, that’s the other thing. It’s like, read it once and then put it into your locker.
James Leadbitter
You know, like it does just the same everywhere. Like constantly reminding people that you are disabled. So do you get lazy about it?
Paul Wilshaw
I kind of, I sometimes update it, but I don’t update it all the time. But Mind the Gap's been great with me around my mental health. They are just, they really support me when I'm getting through a really bad stage, and so does my Creative Enabler. So I just want to give them a big call out for that because they do support everyone in the company with their mental health.
James Leadbitter
And do you find that the kind of the process of that like assertion of your disability and your access requirements, because that's tiring, can get really tiring to do it, and do you find that sometimes you're not on it as much as you should be because it is tiring and then things slip a little bit?
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I have had times with my medication that I just let it go. Because I think I’m okay. I think I’m okay, and then I don’t take it, and then it’s like the company straight away knows when that happens and they are really on it with me at the moment just to make sure. And they always have been I really can't praise the company enough and I think there's a lot of companies around that do that kind of stuff.
But there is one thing I want to ask. As an artist, do you think that, when we had Covid, there was a lot of arts organizations that had learned so much around taking time off and all that, but it feels personally to me that we've gone back into our old routines. Do you feel that's happened?
James Leadbitter
I think it's complicated, I don't want to say that we didn't learn anything. I really don't want to say that because that feels really hopeless, because I think hybrid ways of working have benefited disabled people. Were sat on Zoom now, do you know what I mean? I didn’t have to come up to Bradford. I mean, I would have loved to come up to Bradford because we could have gone Mumtaz and had a really good curry. Right? And I could have seen Evie from Commonwealth and like hung out and stuff but like it's also easier to do things on Zoom. I've got friends that are still clinically very vulnerable around COVID. They've been forgotten about; do you know what I mean? Hundred like, I think about Jess Thom and I'm like babes, like, bahhhh do you know what I mean?
Paul Wilshaw
I know Jess, and it’s hard.
James Leadbitter
It’s hard. I think like, it's not that things haven't got better. It's that, as a society and a culture, we have not come to terms with what actually we went through during lockdown. I think particularly like I made a couple of projects during COVID. One of them was ‘For They Let in the Light’. You know, I went into a children's mental health hospital during COVID, so that hospital was also in lockdown, was like a wild thing to get your head around about, you know, children being locked in their rooms during COVID in a mental health hospital. And I think, like we all know that we went through some really distressing stuff and there was a lot to learn from that. And I think how COVID impacted disabled people and black people and brown people as well, and other marginalized communities obviously had a much greater impact. And I think it's just really frightening to begin to think about that.
But I also think we kind of have to because it's like the future is disabled, you know, so we have to we have to somehow come with that tenderness and that candidness and also be provocative, about it, to go like, I need to think about this, guys.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. And I think this is a thing, if that we will all become disabled in our lifetime, through one way or another. But when you're younger or when your middle-aged, for instance you don’t think like that because it's a lot harder to think like that in a way.
James Leadbitter
But also, if you viewed disability as a bad thing, then like you and I might be like actually being disabled is kind of wicked.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, yeah. Definitely
James Leadbitter
Do you know what I mean? Of course it’s hard at times. Of course it's hard at times. But like, we have our, like learning disabled neurodiverse mad gifts and we celebrate that. If we can reposition disability as something to, you know, I don't want to say to be proud of, but also there is pride in our survival and there's pride in our communities and pride in our survival strategies. There's pride in who we are and there's pride in how we're changing the world. Hundred. All day.
Paul Wilshaw
There's so much that you are doing that is just great work.
James Leadbitter
Aww thanks babes
Paul Wilshaw
I really do appreciate you being on the podcast. I just, there was some stuff on your website that really was like, I mean, when I read it, I was like, whoa okay, I’m talking to James, and the Met police have called him dangerous and stuff.
James Leadbitter
Yeah, they did. The Met Police called me dangerous in the Evening Standard newspaper.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. What was that all about?
James Leadbitter
That was so because I do, I do also have a background as an activist. And as I was quite deeply involved in climate change activism, and we were doing some fairly confrontational things. And I was part of a group of people that were trying to get EON, the German energy giant, to not build a new coal fired power station because they wanted to knock an existing one down and rebuild a coal fired power station and that's just like in an age of climate chaos, like don't build more coal fired power stations, guys. It's a really dumb idea. So we announced that we were going to shut it down for the day is like a symbolic gesture of like, we don't need this. They put all these massive security fences around it. So me and some other people, we made this video that taught people how to pull the fences down.
It was like a badass, like I think it had like Le Tigre music underneath it. And it was like footage from all over the world of people pulling down fences and walls. And it was just kind of like this very provocative, like, fuck your borders. Like, you know, there's no borders. Like, no boundaries. Let's just pull the fences down.
And it went viral. This was like pre kind of pre social media, really. But it like it got a lot of watches. And then somehow The Evening Standard newspaper ran an article about this hate video that I’d made. ‘Hate video shows eco terrorists how to storm power station’ and then they had a comment from the Met police saying the artist that's made this video is dangerous and I was like ‘dude that is going on my website’ I love that.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I just I was just like, whoa.
James Leadbitter
Love that. That's like the best. Forget like five stars from The Guardian newspaper. Lynn Gardener. Five Stars is like no no no no no. The Met Police. Dangerous. Doesn’t get better than that.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. It's also like stuff like it says the Big Issue said disgusting.
James Leadbitter
The Big Issue did call me disgusting. But also, I have respect for the Big Issue as well. It's just a funny quote. I think they did call my art disgusting.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah. I just find it so interesting. Like this whole thing around it, like ‘a pain in the ass’ and ‘It's not entertaining’. It's like, okay!
James Leadbitter
But I also think there's something important here. Like, I know, like, I have these, like, glib quotes, like all the negative quotes on my website and obviously I'm being playful there. It's like because people always put like, I've got five stars.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, that’s what I love about it.
James Leadbitter
But I also think there's something important about, for me and I understand I come at this with a lot of privilege, like I'm a I'm a white man, but it ain’t my job as an artist, as an activist to be popular. I'm not here to make work that like, this ain't Britain's Got Talent. My job is to push things forward and be provocative and to push the envelope forward. And that means sometimes I'm going to have to say things and do things that people might find uncomfortable and that I'm not doing that to like to be an asshole. Like I'm doing that because I want progress for disabled people. I want progress on climate change. I want progress for my black and brown friends. So like it ain’t pretty, but shits got to be said, you know, you have to say things that might make people uncomfortable, but that's better than like an injustice happening.
Paul Wilshaw
Well, yeah. And I think that is so important. I mean, it's better than everyone in parliament saying ‘yay, yay’
James Leadbitter
You know what I mean? Like ‘Yay disabled people’ I mean, like, yeah, celebrate us, hundred. Celebrate us, but also like, don't just be like channel four superhero disabled people, do you know what I mean?
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, I definitely know what you mean
James Leadbitter
We’re allowed to be angry as well know.
Paul Wilshaw
Yeah, we've got a voice and it's everyone's right to use it. And on that note, I feel that is a brilliant way of ending...
James Leadbitter
On that angry note
Paul Wilshaw
No, I think, let's get provocative. Let's get a bit angry, but also,
James Leadbitter
Also with some tenderness as well. I think it's that balance of like righteous anger and righteous tenderness.
Paul Wilshaw
Yep. And also the younger generation, you are our future and we support you as well. And, yeah, just if you do need to chat, chat. And yeah, the system is not great, but we are here.
James Leadbitter
And there are some good people out there that are trying to change that.
Paul Wilshaw
And there are some really good systems. Talk to places like Mind and charities like that, Samaritans. If you're ever feeling in trouble or you need some support, please go to them. I don't want anyone to be a statistic. We're all human beings and we all are there to love and support each other. And on that note, and I want to say a great big thank you to James.
James Leadbitter
Thanks so much for having me.
Paul Wilshaw
For doing this podcast. The next podcast will be done by Disability Arts Online. Take care everyone. Stay safe and be happy.
Outro
Thank you for listening. We do hope you've enjoyed this episode of Disability And... Please visit the Disability Arts online website at www.disabilityarts.online for further episodes of Disability And... Next month, we are joined by theatre maker, poet, screenwriter and artistic director of Criptic Arts, Jamie Hale.