Fighting Federal Overreach: The Illinois River Watershed Crisis

Show Notes

When Oklahoma's Attorney General decided to make a name for himself, Arkansas poultry farmers became collateral damage in a legal battle that's been brewing for nearly two decades. Heather Keenan, 2024 Arkansas Realtor of the Year and third-generation poultry farmer, provides an insider's perspective on the devastating Illinois River watershed lawsuit that's threatening to destroy 400 family farms and $6.67 billion in economic activity across northwest Arkansas. This comprehensive deep-dive explores how a 2005 environmental lawsuit against five major poultry integrators—Tyson, Cargill, Peterson Farms, Georges, and Simmons—has evolved into a political weapon under Attorney General Gentner Drummond's aggressive prosecution. Keenan breaks down the complex phosphorus regulations that sparked the original case, detailing how the industry invested millions in conservation efforts, nutrient management plans, and technological advances over the past 20 years to address legitimate environmental concerns. The conversation reveals the shocking December 2024 federal court judgment that prompted Tyson and other integrators to abandon their contracts with generational farmers, leaving families with multi-million-dollar specialized facilities and no income stream. Keenan explains the devastating economics: farms worth $2 million with active contracts become nearly worthless without them, trapping families in impossible debt situations. Beyond the immediate crisis, this case sets a dangerous precedent for private property rights nationwide. The court-appointed "special master" system grants unprecedented government oversight of private land for up to 30 years, essentially creating a new form of regulatory authority that bypasses traditional constitutional protections. Keenan argues this isn't really about environmental protection—it's about judicial overreach and political grandstanding that threatens agricultural freedom across America. Essential listening for anyone concerned about food security, property rights, and the constitutional limits on government power in rural America.

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You are listening to the Principled Entrepreneur, where Caleb and Jody Moore explore the journeys of leaders and business owners and the principles that carry them through real challenge and success, while unpacking the market trends and economic forces shaping today's world. Let's dive in. Heather Keenan. Hi. Thank you for being with me today. There is so much that we are going to talk about today, and I'm excited about it. I've been on a deep, dark hole with this issue, this Illinois river watershed issue, and you've kind of been the face of that whether you like it or not. I mean, you've kind of been out in front. People have been asking you about it. People want to know more about it, I want to know more about it. And there's just so many complexities that we're going to get there. So. But I want to set everybody up. So who is Heather Keenan? Heather Keenan is 2024 Arkansas realtor of the Year, which is an amazing thing that you accomplished. Congratulations on that. And then that you are current secretary treasurer for the Arkansas Realtor Association. So you're already busy enough and you're a farmer extraordinaire, is that right? I mean, you're out there getting the chickens and doing the farming thing along with the real estate stuff. That's, that's incredible. We love it. It's, you know, it's what we know. It's all we've ever done. We love it. And with that. So one of the things that we're going to do a little bit different is that Heather has agreed that on our community, that our TPE community, she is going to go on and tell everybody the top three things that you need in any business. Because whether it's real estate or farming or anything else, what we're going to do is she's been kind enough to give some wisdom to our community people to go on and get wisdom from, from her experience over the last. How many years you been in real estate now? I've been in real estate. I've been licensed 14 years now, but 14 years. Working a little in the industry before. Yeah. So whether it's. Whether it's real estate or whether it's farming, Heather's going to be on there and that QR code will be up there for you to click on and scan and then get on there. And then we'll have that here after a while. So I'm excited about that. Thank you for that, Heather. No problem. Okay, so let's dig into this. Okay. This Illinois river watershed issue has been around For a long time. So what I want to do is walk the audience through this story of when it starts. And then over the last six months, we really kind of dig in because it seems like it's all come to a head right in the last couple months. So when did this whole thing really generate? So, you know, poultry has been a huge deal in northwest Arkansas for a really long time. And in the 90s, you know, people were spreading litter and doing all of that, but they recognized that the phosphorus was a problem. Right. 2025, state of Oklahoma filed a lawsuit against. 2005. Yep. Correct me. 2005. 2005. Okay. State of Oklahoma filed a lawsuit against some of the poultry integrators in the industry, the ones that were in northwest Arkansas. So that would have been Tyson, Cargill, Peterson Farms, Georges and Simmons. Okay. And they blamed the problem on them and not the poultry growers, but specifically targeted the companies. Went through four attorney generals and has. Has kind of just, you know, know, rode out over all of that time. Meanwhile, during that time, you know, the entire industry took great steps. Technologically, scientifically implemented nutrient management plans, worked with National Resource, Natural Resource Conservation center to export a giant percentage of that litter out of the watershed. Okay, so let me, let me go from there. So, so 2005, Oklahoma sues these five integrators, okay. And it's all over pollution into this Illinois river watershed. Right. Okay, So I have a map up here. Okay. So for the audience, let's. Where you can see Fayetteville is on the. The far. With the east side. Right. You have Benton and Washington counties up there. And so where would your farm be in. In relation to the map here? Just so everybody kind of understands where this is really taking place. If you can see, if you go southwest of Fayetteville, you can see the town of Prairie Grove. Go. I would go straight west of Prairie Grove, north of Lincoln, kind of probably a little in line with Summers or south. We're kind of in that general. Okay. And is that where most of the these growers are going to be located at? Growers are actually going to be located all over that entire area. So. So the whole northwest corner out there, how many growers do you feel are. Are affected by. They're going to be over. I mean, they're going to be over into Oklahoma. So I believe the number that came out from Arkansas Farm Bureau is somewhere around 400 poultry farms. And in that watershed area. So that's 400 individual farms. But, you know, each farm is going to have clearly more than One poultry house. Absolutely. Yeah. So what they're. What the lawsuit says is that this watershed. So is. What is that up there? North of Benton, Washington, Right. South of Salem Springs. Salem Springs. So you're. So all of the runoff that is coming from the chicken litter. Yes. Is running into this river system, and it's heading all the way down into the Oklahoma, where it's in the south, the southwest. So headwaters start actually down south of Prairie Grove. If you could see the. The little community of Hawkeye. Yeah. And that's where my whole family's from on my mama's side. But they. They start. The headwaters start down there in Hawkeye. Okay. The Illinois River. And then everything else runs into that, which then goes over towards Tahlequah and runs down into Lake Tin Killer. Okay. From there. Okay. So that. Visually, that. Okay, I can see where all that's taking place now. So around that same time, as. As all these poultry integrators, you know, started working with these conservation agencies and spending this money and doing soil tests and riparian work and. And best practices, you know, you know, how much technology is involved in farming now. It was like, the perfect time to do all that. You know, they want to take care of the land, they want to take care of the water. They live there. Right. They also formed a group called Illinois River Watershed Partnership. And you can see that's. That's where the map came from. And that. That group is made up of professionals from all over this watershed, including Cherokee Nation, some of the different industries, and they get a lot. Lot of federal grant money and do a ton of research and have different research stations all over the watershed, and have also helped the farmers and all the different areas, you know, to do more work and do more studies and make sure that we're utilizing best practices. So this. So the lawsuit gets filed in federal court. Yes. And this judge, I want to make sure I get his name right. It's U.S. district Judge Gregory Frizzle. Is that. Yes, that is. I don't know if you say it. Frizzle or Frizzle. Frizzle. So he's. He's actually the Same judge from 2005. Same judge. He's the same judge that's had it this whole time, which is crazy, because you've been through four different Attorney General. Attorney Generals. Yes, but. But the same judge. Right. And it's just taken that long. He was appointed by George W. Bush, so that's how long that it's been. So. Okay, so nothing really happens. I mean, obviously, they're in this lawsuit. It's dragged along. It's dragged along. Was there anything that happened in. There were some things in, in the meantime and, and there were some, you know, some action up higher where they recognize that remediation work. I think that kind of slowed it down. Okay. And then, you know, we get the new sheriff in Town with A.G. drummond, and I do believe he probably had some political aspirations. And so then we got that judgment December. Okay. So Drummond comes in 2023. 2023. He's, he's a new attorney general. Yes. So he's number four. He inherits the lawsuit, but instead of kind of tailing it off, he ramps it up. He ramps it up and says, oh no, this is, this has happened. We're going to put pressure on Tyson and the rest of these guys. Big companies, the big companies, big money. Because he wants to make a name for himself maybe, presumably. Presumably allegedly. And then pretty much Tyson just kind of says, you know, what if, if it's really as bad as you said you say it is, then we're just going to pull contracts, pull all these leases that we have with these growers. Right. So they have contracts set up with, with these growers to provide chickens for them in these houses. And they effectively said, because of this judgment that's been issued on December 19, 2025, right before Christmas, we are not going to renew any of these contracts. So at the end of these contractual terms, we're not going to bring you more birds. These are, these are generational family farms, some of them with, with obviously multi million dollar loans for these specialized equipment and houses. And you know, it is my understanding that, that the first of those contracts have started to end, you know, within the last couple weeks or last few days. This is devastating. I mean, obviously devastating. I mean, I'm sure, you know, a lot of the families that are affected by that. How has, from. Obviously it's devastating. But what, what would you say the reaction has. Has been. There's been a video out that I saw and I don't know who actually created the video, but they're interviewing these families that are standing out there in front of their chicken houses with, you know, the kids and, and they can't hardly talk. Yeah. I mean, when they get the. So, so what is the repercussions? I mean, how are. I remember, how are they feeling? Number one, is there hope? Number two is how do they, how do they recover from this? You know, the public's first reaction is just get a contract from somebody else. Well, which of these integrators in this lawsuit is going to want to go pick that up. Right. But secondly, it's also a capacity issue. You know, you, you have to have the capacity to, to take on those extra houses in terms of feed, in terms of production, and you have to have the. Want to. And then, you know, there are other poultry companies in the game now. Right. Which is kind of one of the things where we can point out later, this is not about water. But why would those integrators want to go into an area where they're, they're using this kind of judicial, basically law. That's a good point. You know, so, so what are, what are they going to do with these specialized houses that you can't do much else with? Yeah, no, I mean, when, when you have a, a turkey house or a chicken house, there's really nothing else you can do with it. Right. And, and it makes it hard on the bank. But it's, you know, so most of these integrators, what, what does it cost? So, so let's spend it with real estate related. What's the average cost of a farm? If you're gonna go list a farm, let's say it had four or five houses on it, depending on the age you're gonna be in the couple million dollar range, depending on the age and how many houses. But let's say, let's say $2 million. So let's say $2 million for an average farm that's, that's growing. Okay. So they get a loan from a bank, $2 million and they could do FSA, you know, that bank. We can use it as big guarantee. Yeah. Okay, so, so there's some government programs out there to help offset some of the. Because I mean, think about a down payment for that. I mean, no, they can't do that. They can't afford that. So they have some government assistance. They've had their collateral up. They've got, you know, they've got some land they've got. Right. But. So then they have this huge note that's on it though. Tyson. Others say, nope, we're not going to renew it. What's the value of that farm then? After that you tell me. That's the unknown. It's really whatever the land is that, that it sits on, it sits on. Not $2 million. Definitely not. That's why, that's why this has been such a hard thing for these people to look at. It's like the income is based off of the contract. The contracts that they have yeah. Without the contracts, not only is the income gone, but the value of the property is also gone. Is that, is that right? Absolutely. Okay. And they're staring at the land value is determinant on the area. You know, you have a pretty diverse land mix in terms of. You got to think about what northwest Arkansas has done. Yeah. So you've got some houses that are probably, you know, closer into that corridor on land that could ultimately be developed. Like the other factor that, that has not been weighed in on this lawsuit. You've got land, you know, ever closer to Tahlequah or, you know, west of Westville that's not going to be as, as valuable as, as the land there in northwest Arkansas, you know, closer to. So let's talk about, let's talk about phosphorus. Okay. Because that's really the, the problem with this, right. Is that they're saying all this chicken litter going into the watershed, it's creating pollution, AKA phosphorus, which creates the algae bloom and all this other stuff. Right. And I'm not going to even claim there's going to be people that are going to watch this and they're going to be like, oh, she's, she's just a blonde girl married to a farmer. So I'm, you know, you're more than that. Obviously you've done a lot of research. I'm good at reading, but. But I do actually work on the farm and I've, you know, I've been around that. People that actually know me know, know that I have done the work and, and put in the time. But to, to claim that I'm a scientist and can understand every part of that nutrient management plan that I cannot grant knows about more about soil and crops and land that I can ever absorb in a lifetime. But I can tell you the basics in the. That someone watching this can understand. There you go. Phosphorus makes the grass grow. You've got to have it. The problem in the 90s and, and up until they originally started that lawsuit. And I will agree, they, you know, it was too much. It was. We needed, we needed those plans. We needed to be responsible. Okay. Farmers do want to be good stewards of the land. Yeah. I have, like I said in my other video, I have five wells on my place. What good would it do me to be poisoning my land and the water that we're drinking? Right. But, but there's a point where it's too much. So you want to sample all that soil and you want to know what you have. Phosphorus causes algae bloom that was creating a Problem. Yeah. They've also done some great technology things with the feed to, to try to offset that phosphorus. Okay, that's, that's another great thing about science and technology and having the poultry department at the University of Arkansas right there that the public doesn'. Understand. You know, not all science and research is bad. Not all the things that are happening with food production and in our poultry are terrible. You know, we are not corporate farming. There is very specific scientific research that goes into making it healthy. And the, the phosphorus is very important. You know, it's a low cost organic fertilizer. So you take the chick, you take the chicken litter, the farmers take the. Take the chicken litter. And some of it you would spread on your own fields. Absolutely right. I mean, you, you do that. Right? We want to do that. You have cattle. We have nearly 200 acres of hay right there that we should be selling to other people for. Great. Another source of income, nutrient rich feed product for their cattle. Okay, so there's. So there's that. But you. What we were talking about earlier before the podcast is that you actually take a lot of this and ship it. Yes. Right. So that's the point. It doesn't need to. We don't want it to stay in the watershed. You know, just because we get rid of it off of our farm. We do. We do have a responsibility to get it out of this watershed because we know there was too much. So we contract it with someone that gets it out of the area and gets it to crop farmers and other people and nutrient deficient areas where they need the phosphorus because it's organic and it's good and it's not, not a chemical, it's not synthetic. So that's fantastic. Back in the early 2005, 1990s, you were using most of the chicken litter. Probably. I would. Local, localized. Yes. Right now I would have been a child. Grant and I were not chicken farming at that time. He's going to claim he's a cowman. Yeah, but, but my family, my grandparents always had chickens. My parents had chickens for a time. So I've grown up around this industry my whole life. And yeah, they, I mean, they would spread it. They spread it. Okay. Yes. Fertilizer makes the grass green today. How much of that do you use locally and how much of that do you ship out? I would say in our nutrient management plan, about 85% goes. Goes, goes away from here. Is that, Would you say that's with most. Yeah, 85 is probably pretty. So you sell that to a third party. Yes, and that. And they then distribute. That goes to Missouri. Yes. Okay, so what are we talking about now? Being in the watershed? If 85% of what you're producing as chicken litter is actually gone away from the watershed and the remaining kept based on our soil test that we have partnered with NRCS to do our nutrient management plan to sample and look at our land and what we're using it for and how it's being managed to determine when we can spread it and how we can spread it and how much we can. So you already have a plan for that, that a government entity is helping you research? Every poultry farm has one. Every. You have a nutrient management plan. So that's already been done. Keep it up. It's already being done. Keep it up and keep it renewed. And how long has that been going on? For three, four, five years? No, that's been going on. That, that all started back when the lawsuit first started. Like, that was part of, like, okay, let's make a plan. Okay, so remediate. So then if that, if. If the farmers are taking the initiative for all these decades, and you alluded to this a minute ago, you said it's not about water, it's not about the watershed, what is it about then? I think it's a. It's. It's about getting a payout is why it's come to a head right now. And, and here's the example that I can give you that that really proves that it's not about the litter. So we farm for George's. And like I just said, most of our litter is going out. So with this special master that is in the judgment, the current judgment, we did not get a stay on that. And what is a special master? This is the person that the judge has stated for the next 30 years that can come onto our farm at any time to monitor our use of poultry litter, where the litter's at, what we're doing with it, if we're following his guidelines, which do not align with our poultry, or. Excuse me, you can cuddle that in our CS nutrient management plan that was developed by scientists. Right. If he doesn't like it, yes. There are different guidelines that they're going to go by. They could effectively tell Georgia's to not bring us birds. Oh, if I sell litter to a neighbor down the road that has cattle, they can now go on their farm to check their land. There are other chicken farms on our road who have contracted with different integrators in the last 20 years that are not named in this lawsuit. They will not be subject to the special master because those integrators are not part of this lawsuit. They're not one of the five. So there are folks in the watershed can buy litter from those people. Their land will not be subject to the special master. So tell me it's about the water. Yeah, it's so just to connect the dot. Drummond. Mr. Drummond. Attorney General Drummond. 2023 ramps it up, puts the pressure on these five integrators to say there is something there. We're forcing you into this and we want a settlement. They push so hard. Tyson says, well then if there's that much of a problem, then we're just going to not renew the growers contracts. And the growers are sitting there saying, wait a minute, we have nothing to do with any of this. This is between you two guys. We're caught in the middle. All we're trying to do is do what we're, what we signed up to do, which is produce the chickens, get them to Tyson, have a family farm. Right. That's what you're trying to do. So this is more of a political statements from across the border. Not even from our state from across the border because there may be more allegedly political ambitions elsewhere for him. And Oklahoma would get a pretty big payday. So the Sunday. Right. Sunday there was tentative agreements between Oklahoma and Tyson and Cargill. I think George's had already came to one. Yeah, they, they had reached a settlement with the attorney general that, that I believe they were trying to reach before the judge's judgment in December. Yeah, and they couldn't, they couldn't get him to respond. But, but they breached a settlement with the attorney general in January. They could not get the special master provision removed. They did. They could not do it. That was, that was a non negotiation. But it went, but it went from 30 to 7 to 7. It went from an evergreen fund where they had to replenish it anytime it would get below $5 million or whatever to like a cap, $250,000. And then last week is when Tyson and Cargill announced their settlements that are, that are pretty similar. You know, they kind of mirror. The issue is the media is spinning that, that the state of Oklahoma has settled. Tyson is paying $25 million, period, full stop. Those are not complete until the judge signs off on them. The judge has already raised some questions with the Georgia settlement. The settlement hearing to approve the settlement has already been delayed once. It's now set for the 27th of this month. Yeah, but there, there's a lot of reason to believe that he's not going to prove any of these. Meanwhile, he would not grant a stay while they appealed this to the 10th Circuit to hold off on his December 19th ruling. Right. So we're, we're effectively under the thumb of the December 19 ruling now, except for they have not yet chosen the special master. The companies did not like the choice that the judge brought forward, and they did have the right to provide names of their own, which coincidentally were both part of the Illinois River Watershed partnership, whose data the judge would not consider or in research he would not consider in the, in his creation of judgment. So let's talk about the special master, because as we were talking. Yes. Beforehand, I, I, I kept thinking something feels off because you have the, you have the separations of all these governments. Right. That were set up. You have, you have the legislative body that deals with creating laws most of the time, and they have the purse strings. You have the executive branch that takes the, and enforces the laws that are placed. That's the executive branch. And then the judicial branch balances out to make sure those laws are in line with the Constitution and they don't get out of line. In this scenario, you have the judicial branch who is appointing somebody, a special master in this case to then enforce the agreements that. In this case. And so like all this stuff about the seven years and all this other stuff about. Think about agreements that we weren't party to. Yeah. Agreements that you weren't party to. The agreements that Tyson and Cargill and everybody else. And so I thought that that was strange. So the judge then becomes an executive branch in a way, because then he is the decider. Bingo. He's the decider on. Are you the grower upholding to the agreement that was agreed to by all these parties. This is where it can. Poultry is so important to Arkansas. And there's a whole food, food supply and food pricing issue that's a component of this, but that's where it flips right there and becomes a huge issue that is not at all about poultry. And you just hit the nail on that. That's what people need to understand. So I did, I was like, okay, this can't be the first time. Right. So there has to be other, you're doing what I've been doing. There has to be other ones. But, but I'll give you, I'll give you some information because you've probably done this too. Yes. US vs Exxon, 1989. So that was a, I won't get into all the details U.S. first, Hooker Chemicals and Plastics, 1979, which was Niagara Falls Waterway system. A bunch of chemicals being dumped. They gave it to a school and the school found out about it. It was a whole deal. Okay, thanks for tuning in today. This episode of the Principled Entrepreneur is brought to you by Moore Co. Realtors. If you've listened to this show for any length of time, you know we care deeply about doing business the right way. That's exactly how we operate at Moore Co. Our agents are trained to help across the board residential, commercial, investment properties, land and farm, anywhere in Arkansas. With multiple offices and a team that understands the whole picture, we help our clients make confident decisions no matter where they're buying or selling. You may have 99 problems. The real estate won't be one of them. When you work with Warren Co. Realtors, and the latest one that everybody's going like, oh, yeah, I remember that. US vs BP, BP oil spill in 2010. What do you think the next one's gonna be? That what the next one should be this deal in the Potomac. Yeah, that's on the news right now. They just said this is probably Tomax, should be the next one because it's the biggest one. They think it'll be the biggest one in history. Oh, really? But Harvard Law Review is. Has a whole thing about this and says those are the instances for which that should be used with very, very narrow parameters. Very narrow. Yeah, yeah. These are huge, huge deals. Those are huge deals. I mean, these are big deals. Okay, so when you see the special master being appointed, it's like, okay, well, BP had this huge oil spill in an ocean. It affected not only like a watershed, like what we're talking about, which is a big deal. I'm not saying that it's not people, it's drinking water and stuff. It should. But what I'm saying is this was whole oceans being affected. You had the Niagara Falls in that area, New York. I mean, it was. And these are back 79, 89, even 2010. That's over. Special masters there to. To ensure that the, the cleanup over the ocean. Over the ocean, right. Yeah, it's. And to make sure BP is doing their, their due diligence and their job that what was agreed upon that they were actually doing. And I get that. I understand why the, the judicial system has that at their disposal to use. Because you can't sometimes trust these big corporations to do what they said they were going to do for sure. Now in this, in this case, you have five different ones. And here's here's what's different about it. Okay. It feels more regulatory than the rest of it. That's, that's where it becomes we're already regulated and you're already so regulated. So it's a multi decade oversight. This is the agreements or this is the difference. Right. This is, it's a multi decade oversight. 30 years plus interstates environmental harm. So this is something else. Regulations, Constitution, 10th Amendment. Okay. Okay. Regular regulation like compliance limits cleanup funding mechanisms. These are all things that these, this is our agreed. Vaughn oversight affecting an entire agriculture sector. Okay. So that's, that's the key part to me is like wait a minute. This, these are specific issues that happens bp so that's why you have agricultural thing. It started with Oklahoma Cattlemen's immediately said we cannot endorse this ag for governor like this because of what this could do, the precedent that this could set. Right. This is, this is huge. Yeah. Like and, and then National Cattlemen's Beef association said okay, we're going to make an, an executive decision and we're going to file an amicus brief to support the fact that this is not okay. Everything that you just said, we're going to. They're going to file one. I've also heard pork producers potentially. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know for a fact. I've not seen that in print. But I have heard that. I know Farm Bureau was working on stuff. So they see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so it's a precedent setter that this hasn't happened before as a, as a, as a more of a global. Like we're going after these agricultural sector. So people's private land. Well sure. They're coming on your private land. Whereas it was ocean, it was Niagara Falls. I mean there is some private land instances but this is coming. This is more direct. So it's unusual in the scale, duration and economic scope. That's what's unusual about it. It's not unusual for the, the judicial system has that at the power to do it. So they do have the power to do it but where they have typically used it is bigger, larger scale lawsuits and settlements that would take. Would take more manpower to oversee to make sure that they were doing it right. In this case we're talking about. I mean how many. You said 400 where people were growers roughly. Roughly about 400 growers to see. So it's not. But it's, it's only specifically to those growers. It's because the special master. It's not only them, it's anybody that applies their litter. So you've got to think, like, think about how our land's all been divided. Yeah. Got little 10 acres, 5 acre farms, 20 acre farms. You. I mean, that could go on and on and on. And then, I mean, it's interesting. Okay, so the settlement has been tentatively agreed upon. Ghosts. From the judge. How do you. Because you've, You've been researching this, you understand this judge better than anybody, probably. As far as his rulings and how he's reacted. How do you feel like the reaction is going to be now that this potential lawsuit could be settled? I don't believe that he's going to agree to these settlements. Why not? I don't. He's already questioning the terms of the settlements. He's already questioning the amounts of phosphorus, why the specific amount that he stated in his judgment is not in these settlements. The reason that it's not is because we all have nutrient management plans that have specific amounts based on our land and our operations and the soil tests that have been done. Yeah. He wanted the special master to be able to create the nutrient management plans. Our nutrient management plans are created by agencies. Yeah. Government agencies that have the technology. You know, those are. Those are governed with lots of steps. If you have an issue with them that you can. So you don't think he's going to say, I'm okay with this. Okay. So not based on the. Not based on the questions and the way that they were worded. You feel like in response to the Georgia. Okay, so if I'm, I'm gonna use the word allegedly a lot here. Do you feel like Tyson was using their influence on the growers? So there's one thing that, that has just blown this thing up, and that is that Tyson cut ties with growers. Oh, I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question that nobody can get the answer to because I know. I can tell you that Oklahoma Farm Bureau was trying to find solutions to get birds for those people if they needed to, you know, to fill the gap until this could be worked out. But Tyson's holding firm, so we don't, you know, not. And, and rightly so. Nobody knows if they're bluffing or if it's true. But that has caused, I mean, the, the amount of me, yours included. Your. You've come out with videos, they've blown up. Everybody's catching on. And the reason is, is because before this, I mean, 2000, I would have never known the Illinois river watershed was a big deal. 2005 even. Til to. To maybe December. I. I didn't know anything about it. Boom. They cut off these growers, and the growers have come out there and been the voice. Great PR move, I guess. Okay, so I'm thinking grassroots. These. Yeah. If there's somebody to fight for you, it's going to. It's going to be a farmer. And now all of a sudden, because. So December to Now, you're talking 60 days, roughly. Let's just say there's been a reversal. I mean, not a reversal, but there's been a push to settle. Right. So the uprising start and a settlement happens. Coincidence, Maybe. I think there's pressure, there's political pressure. There has not been a settlement with Simmons. Oh, so Simmons is the one that hasn't. So Cargill, Tyson, George's. I don't know if that's being negotiated right now. I kind of. I didn't see it on here. But you're right. You look. I don't. If you follow them, you can go to their social media. And look, they have been very outspoken against the attorney General. They have done social media campaigns. They have ran Tulsa World, Salem Springs, oh, very. In support of their farmer, in support of the practices that their farmers have, and in support of agriculture. You know, so they're hopefully, they're holding out for an appeal and no special master. I don't. I don't know if the settlement's on the table for them or not. So is the frustration from what I've hear, heard from you and seen on social media, is that the farmers, What's. What's their part in the process? What. How do they get their voice heard? It's a great question. That's a great question. When the media is spinning it that, oh, Tyson settled and spent $25 million. You know, this. This is not a headline for the media. The private property overreach. Because. Because it's complex. You know, it is complex. You know, people don't understand government things. You know, crud. They hardly show up to vote anymore. But the overreach of this, you know, that they don't get mad and they don't show up until it's happening to them. Right. And. And I'll say. I'll be the first to say, you know, I read and watch and, and all the time, and I'm always following and I do show up and vote, but I made the video because it was happening to me, but also because my friends were like, what is this? What does this mean? What Explain this to us. And I thought, you know, people don't understand where this has been going all along. Like I've got to speak up. And when the judgment says, the judgment that the judge wrote says this will have no, the court finds this will have no adverse effect on the public. That literally makes your blood boil. Yeah. It's the lost jobs, it's the schools, it's the tax money when those houses are empty. It's the banks that are strapped that can't loan money to the other small businesses. Yeah. There's a million trickle down effects. It's the food prices from the lost pounds of chicken. You know, the list just goes on. He's just, I mean, it's, they're, they're playing games with people. You know, it's the farmers that are on suicide watch because this is their generational family land and they didn't get chickens last week. Yeah. And they've got bills to pay. Come on. Yeah. But the private property overreach. That's, that's the whole other layer that goes beyond this. Now we're, now, we're, now we're treading in, in some government territory that is dangerous and it's a problem. So if you could sit down with decision makers, what would you say? Well, we, we, we are now effectively under the rule of a special master and in a lawsuit that we were not a part of in a settlement that we didn't even get to go to the table and discuss. So I have to let this person on my farm. Do I have to let, do I have to let this person on my farm? Well, you know, what, what do I do? What about the people that don't follow this like we do and this person shows up just gonna be like shoot out at the pay corral for, for, you know, real folks that don't know and don't understand who's updating them. Yeah. Who's explaining this to them? Right. You know, what about people like my dad that bought, bought some litter and then this person shows up at their house. Yeah. Are they really going to show up at all or is it like people say, well, you know, we, you know, we already have. What's, what's one more person? Well, you know, it's, we're just, are we just going to let them taking more and more control? I wanted so to get to that point, I kind of want to shift a little bit and I want to talk about the state of the farmer today. Okay. Because if you look at, let's just say row crop Farmers. Okay. I've read, I've studied the row crop. People are selling out left and right. The cost of doing business is extremely high. So if you needed to get a tractor today, it's unbelievably expensive. If you need to get that, the attachments, if you need to get. Whatever the case is, it's extremely expensive. Interest rates. To even get it and make payments on it is hard. And then they're being caught in the middle when they go to get the, the peas or the alfalfa or whatever that they're trying to use. They're being squeezed on that end too, is that they're not making enough profit. So they're having to say, here's my farm. I'm having to sell it. I can't do it. And so you're seeing the farmer. If they don't have several, and I mean several hundred acres, they can't make it. So now I know, I understand that on the row crop side, but at farmers in general on the poultry side. And I want to, I want to give you a couple of numbers real quick because it seems a little different for, for poultry farmers than it does maybe row crop farmers. But I still hear in your voice that there's a squeeze happening. So I want to get your thoughts. But overall In Arkansas, there's 6,500 farms in Arkansas that produce some type of poultry. That's a lot. So that turns out poultry is the largest agriculture product in Arkansas in terms of cash receipts, providing over 50% of the total, accounting for roughly 6.67 billion in economic developments in 2023. Of that, 40% came from broilers, which is. Are you a broiler? Yeah, we have a broiler. You're a broiler farm. So the chicken that goes to be processed for chicken strips. And so you're, you're growing it from little bitty guys to how many pounds? Seven pounds. Seven pounds. Third in the nation, Arkansas, third in the nation for broilers produced with 1.3. 1.03 billion broilers raised in 2023. That's a lot. Third in the nation of turkeys produced. 27 million turkeys. Seventh in the nation in egg production. 3.9 billion eggs produced in 2022. The industry was responsible for as much as 35.03 billion in total economic activity throughout the state. Throughout the entire states. So here's my point in telling you all these numbers. We miss the fact we being business people, the general public, right? We see. When I say, let's be an entrepreneur. Okay. Like, let's be a business owner. Let's be an entrepreneur. Let's run a company. The first thing that people think about is, like, I got a product. I need to create it, or intellectual property, and they want to create that and then build it up, warehouse space, that kind of mindset. That's where my mind goes. Right. But really, the number one economic generator in the state of Arkansas, and I'll say we're not alone in this, are the farmers. So if we're talking about being an entrepreneur, the farmer is the greatest entrepreneur that the country has ever had, 100%. And so we missed that fact. And I wanted to bring that out today because I feel like the farmers being squeezed not just in one area, but in all areas. Do you feel that squeeze when it comes to the poultry side of it as well? Oh, absolutely. We. We talked about that earlier when we were talking about, you know, just the cost of the houses and. And the cost of everything. And then you end up with, you know, barely enough to live on for the year. And so you. You know, why are you doing it? You're. You're doing it for the lifestyle, you know, and to keep your kids on the farm and to teach them something. But at the end of the day, you do look at it and go, why are you. Why am I doing this? Yeah, you know, it's. It's tough. And you've seen everybody's seen the charts. They share them about what everything costs versus what you're making. I'll be the first to tell you every crazy. Everybody's talking about how high cattle are right now. Cattle are the highest they've ever been. It's insane. They're talking about, oh, cattle. Cattlemen are making so much money. Making so much money. These guys are barely getting caught up from. From years of, you know, just drought and all the other things that they've had to go through. You know, some of them are just barely getting their head back above water. But, Heather, this. These numbers. These numbers are insane. These numbers are numbers. We're playing with. Huge numbers. Yeah, we're playing with big numbers. Huge numbers. And you tell me if I'm wrong on this because you're in it. I'm not. I see from the real estate side of things, but not from. I'm in it like you are. Okay, so the average house, depending on upgrades and other stuff like that, let's just say it's between 250,000 and 400,000 per house. Yeah. To the higher side now okay, so now we say per house. We're talking about a broiler house. We're talking 66 by 600ft, 66ft wide, 600ft long. Okay. Yes. All right. Now some of the older ones, like we're still raising chickens. Our, our houses are 53 by 500. 53 by 500, yes. Okay, so smaller amount of birds. But you know, as, as the technology improved, they could build the houses bigger. Sure. So, and we've seen some of that recently. Four houses, roughly. If you had a four house farm between a million and 1.6 million, that, that would be the amount that doesn't count the land or anything like. Right, the land. And then you'd have to have, you know, somewhere to live or somewhere for your. Yeah, that doesn't. We're just talking about the house, the, the growing houses, the broiler houses, chicken houses themselves. Six houses would be, could be 2.4 over. You need at least six houses to make it cash flow. Oh my goodness. Would be better. So you have an over two million, maybe two and a half million dollar loan on six. Okay, absolutely. So then if I look at it, I say, okay, what is, what is my annual gross income? Because there's a lot of expense in this. You're talking about water, you're talking about a lot of power because you have to keep it at a certain heat in there to keep those birds alive. Right. So it's your, your energy bill is probably stupid, especially the last couple of months. Bills are crazy grass bills. Okay, so then you're talking about if you have a loan on it, your annual income is between 28,000 and 35,000 annually. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah, that'd be that now that would be net after. So, so I mean, well, I say, okay, so you've got, so your net may be only 10,000 if you got a loan. So you've got to have. Somebody's working off the farm that's carrying the insurance. Yeah, insurance, yeah, yeah. And then, and then somebody's at home and that's their job is taking care of the chickens. That's. Yes. I mean, I heard this a couple of years ago. We had a guy up in Clarksville office and he broke these numbers down to me and I never, nobody had ever broken the numbers down. We were in a training and he said, he, at the end of it, he said $30,000. And I said, wait a minute, hang on, hang on. You're telling me you're working seven days a week? Seven days a week, 365 days a year, no vacation, you're taking on a ton of liability, a ton of debt, and at the end of it all, you're making somewhere. You're grossing somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe 30 to 35,000. And that's not even your net. You may be netting a lot less than that. Why do you do it, Heather? There's just something about, I don't know. And somebody else said this to me the other day, watching those baby chickens grow and taking the best care of them and knowing, you know, when you ship those off, like you're, you're feeding literally the world. I mean, that's why we all do it. Yeah. What a purpose. I mean, I mean, when he's, when you stop and think about it, I mean, somebody's. Some kid is getting fed because of what I did. Yeah, it's, it's safe. We have the safest, most abundant food supply in the world. And, and there's still so much misinformation and people still complain about it and think we are corporate farming. All those big old industrial houses and you just want to shake them and say, you have no idea. Like, come, you know, come and look. But biosecurity, you know, I can't bring them all home for a visit. I wish I could. Well, this is why we need to get the word out. That important. The video that I saw, third or fourth generation people, they had their kids. Oh my gosh. And it's hard. It is, is heart wrenching. Mental health is a big deal. Mental health's already huge in our, in our country. And then think about that, Think about the pressure on, on farmers. Yeah. With that much debts. And then they're probably getting a letter from the bank saying, make your payments. They can't do it. Now what? Yeah, now we have some great ag lenders though. You know, they're trying to keep up with this. They're trying to find solutions, they're trying to do the best they can. But ultimately, you know, it's affecting them too. It's going to, it's going to affect some of those jobs. Yeah, you know, it's, it's a huge trickle. The feed truck drivers, the supply companies that, you know, it's just like you said, that the entire industry, it is not just these farmers, it is all the service industries that, that take care of our farms. It's, it's where we go to get parts. It's the truck drivers that bring our feed. Then it's, they, you know, can they pay the rent if they don't have a job. Right. Then it's your rent house, you know. So let's sum all this up. What do you want people outside of agriculture to understand? This is way more than chicken litter. Way more than chicken litter. I think that people need to be paying attention to that, you know, because there's going to be a lot of things happen because of this. If it stands and people are going to be going, what happened? Why did that close? Why did they lose all their jobs? Why did so and so lose their farm? Why is that place all grown up? Yeah. Why is chicken so high? Yeah. Especially our legislators wondering what happened in this industry. How's your response been from the state of Arkansas? I mean, have. I know that Farm Bureau is working closely with some of them behind the scenes? I don't feel like they've been as visible as what we've seen from Oklahoma legislators at all. I will give a shout out to Tyler D's. He's, he's doing a great job. He understands the industry and understands that, that there's more to it and all the, all the pieces. He's been a great communicator in this. But, but I think, and, and it's not, I'll say it's not just the legislators in that watershed. Like this is. The effects are far reaching. It is, sure there's way more than that watershed and regional. This is Arkansas economics. This is, that's what we proved today. This is private property rights on a national level. And it's, it's huge. And there's going to be a lot of people that are scratching their heads going, what in the world happened? Because they, they are not paying attention. And there's so many different layers. Well, you're doing a good job of making sure people understand the issue. And you have a, you have a great perspective because you have a real estate background. You have a farming background that you said, hey, I've been a farmer for my whole life. My family was farming my whole life. So it's not like you married into it. You've known it for years. So you have the benefit of understanding what private property rights look like, what they should be. We fight for that all the time in our association. And also what it means to be a generational farmer in the states and the pride that it takes and the purpose that you bring to it every single day, that really. It's not about the money. No, it's not. It's not about the money. And to me that's, that is in today's world. Usually that's the first thing. Oh yeah, it's usually about the money first and then it, and then whatever else comes after that. But farmers. I wish I had the quote with Paul. Was it Paul Harvey? You know that he talks about the farmer, God made farmer. It was such a great. I mean, you hear it, you hear it every now and then. It's wonderful. And to me, I hear that sometimes in my head it's like we miss it. Well, the thing and, and you know, again, it's, it's not about the water, but, but it is, you know, if we don't take care of it and we want to take care of, won't be there to take care of us. But the farmers want farmers and we, we know that and that's why we implement and do all the things that we do. It's the same thing though, with hunters. You know, like they say, conservation. They're conservation. The most, the most conservation minded people are hunters. Are hunters now. But you want to make them look like they're just the worst in the world. All they want to do is kill every animal and take the population down to nothing. That's, that's far from the truth. Number one, conservation people are hunters and farmers. We want to be good stewards of the land that we have because we want our kids to have it as well. Right. When we're gone. What would that, what purpose would that serve if we weren't? That's right. Heather, is there anything that we left out that you want to add to our discussion today? Oh, gosh, no. You know, anybody that wants to read and go look it up, they can go down a rabbit hole. There's plenty of. Can they find you on Facebook? Yeah, you can find me on Facebook. You're there, right? Yeah, I'm there. You're kind of, you're kind of popular. Yeah. So they can find you there and then they can find us on. Find you on the community too, here in a little bit. So we'll get you, we'll get you on there as well. So, Heather, thank you for taking the time to talk to us. This is a very, this is a very difficult thing, thing to kind of walk through. There's so many twists and turns to this thing, but you've done a great job of articulating that and hopefully that message gets out there. You can use this and other things on your social media to get the message out there. Thank you for recognizing it and bringing some attention to it. Absolutely. I love to do it. I think anytime we're talking about being a principled entrepreneur. We need to think about not just the manufacturing jobs and everything else, but the farmers are just as important. Absolutely. So thank you, Heather. Appreciate you. Yeah, you could be the greatest. You can be the best. You can be the King Kong banging on your chest. You can beat the world. You can beat the war. You can talk to God, go banging on his door. You can throw your hands up. You can beat the clock. I'm Jody Moore with Moore and Company Realtors, and welcome to the Real Estate hall of Fame.