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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Ben: We should start the show.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: let's start the show.
Can't reference that show anymore.
Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horded progressive
standards that never agreed to.
Tonight, we're talking about a movie
that may have issues with pacing,
it may have issues with racism, it
may have issues with film quality
that haven't been resolved yet.
But certainly it didn't have an issue
with casting these fucked up angels.
It's the prophecy.
I am your host, Jeremy Whitley,
and with me tonight I have a
panel of cinephiles and Cenobites.
First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy vampire binary.
My co host, Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: Oh, the prophecy, the acting,
mesmerizing, the story decisions,
baffling, the politics, dodgy!
I think we've got ourselves a
progressively horrified classic
on our hands here, folks.
Jeremy: Oh, absolutely.
Ben: Buckle the fuck up!
Jeremy: And with us as well,
the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
our co host, Emily Martin.
Emily, how you doing?
Emily: This is my hole.
It was made for me.
Jeremy: Yeah, I
Emily: movie is a disaster and I love it.
Ben: Oh my god, the fact that we
got like, that our main character
is, this is now the third movie I've
seen Casey Jones actor in following
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1 and 3?
Jeremy: yeah,
Emily: wasn't in two?
I thought
Ben: He was not in 2.
Jeremy: So, we'll say this is written
and directed by Gregory Wyden.
It could only possibly have been
written and directed by the same
person to have, for this sort of pacing
to survive into the movie itself.
It stars, not in order of appearance, but
in order of how fucking amazing they are.
Christopher Walken, Viggo
Mortensen, and everybody else.
Uh, no, Virginia Madsen is
Ben: Honestly, honestly though.
Jeremy: Elias, Elias Kodeas, who, uh,
sounds like a Roman soldier, but is
actually Casey Jones from the, uh,
original Ninja Turtles live action,
if you're familiar, along with a lot
of other stuff.
Ben: The most, Brooklyn
man to ever grace Canada.
Emily: Bless.
Hey,
Jeremy: got Eric Stoltz
Ben: Did not like Eric
Stoltz in this movie.
Did, did not like Simon the
pedophile angel one little bit.
Jeremy: Not great.
And he's also got masters of the
universe hair, which doesn't really help.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: and we got, uh, Mariah shining
dove in here, just really rounding out
just this feeling of moderate racism
that goes around all of the native
American stuff that's in this movie.
When the, oh God, this movie
does end with a lot of like.
Native Americans sitting very still and
chanting while angels, like, fucking rip
people's hearts out and stuff in this,
Ben: yeah, let's, let's start with that.
This movie has native
representation question mark?
Emily: Question mark.
That's a big question mark.
I did do a, like, a tiny itty bitty bit
of research on what this is supposed to
be talking about in terms of the DNA or
Navajo as it would be at the time in film.
But the, I mean, it is
not, it is never explicit.
The only reason that I
went to Navajo is because.
I looked up the hand
trembler which is a thing.
It's a real thing.
Jeremy: they could only be more
stereotypically Native American.
Just like, big, bold
letters, Native American.
Like, no No, they don't
really talk about the tribe.
They don't really, like,
Ben: they don't even call it
a tribe, they call it a clan.
Jeremy: Yeah, they, they couldn't be more
Ben: That was weird.
Jeremy: were talking to a willow
tree and singing about a river.
Like, it's just,
Ben: I don't know man, fucking,
I feel like the guy, I feel like
the guy who said the enemy ghost
is gone got robbed at the Oscars.
Jeremy: yeah, I mean, this, this, This
little girl who plays like the, you
know, the, the little girl who is, is
being possessed throughout this movie
is doing some fucking heavy lifting.
Emily: my God.
Ben: will say, as incredible as,
Fucking Christopher Walken is as
incredible as Viggo Mortensen is.
My favorite character in the
whole movie is Colonel Mary.
That
Emily: Mary
Jeremy: Colonel
Emily: up.
Jeremy: Racist, Korean War General
in a little girl's body is,
Ben: could have been the whole movie.
Just this fucking war criminal in
this adorable little girl's body.
Emily: and that's the thing about
this movie is that there was a
lot, there were a lot of cool
Jeremy: so much, it's somehow
Ben: we Okay, and can we appreciate
Jeremy: first, like,
half hour of the movie.
Ben: This little girl fucking hats off
to this tiny child actress who got a note
from a director Okay, so you're possessed
by the ghost of a Korean war criminal.
I'm sorry I phrased that wrong.
A war criminal from the Korean War,
not a war criminal who is Korean.
A white war criminal.
Jeremy: small Native American child
Ben: Can you tell we're recording this
right after NYCC and I'm a little tired?
Emily: I mean, I had, I wasn't even at
NYCC and I was a little tired, but that's
just because I was like spending the
whole day trying to recap this movie.
Ben: There are people who've
given, like, adult actors, who
have given the note, You're being
possessed by a war criminal's ghost.
Wouldn't know what the fuck to do.
This little girl fucking nails it.
Emily: With the dead eyes and everything,
Jeremy: her
Ben: Thousand yard stare as she
describes just fucking beheading a man.
Jeremy: is,
Ben: A
Jeremy: by a Korean War
Emily: right?
Jeremy: Like,
Emily: Oh my
Jeremy: Cause like, when she was
doing her child acting, she's
very child act y as a, as a kid.
Where she just like, says
things very child act ery.
Like, she could be playing
Anakin Skywalker.
Um,
Ben: Mary?
Jeremy: ugh, she's
not
Ben: Mary?
Everything.
Jeremy: and then she, she turned, she
gets possessed by an evil racist, and then
she just delivers these lines with such
fucking gravitas that I was just like, oh
my god, like, this little girl is creepy.
Uh, so,
Ben: that this man who kept a
scrapbook of just newspaper articles
accusing him of human sacrifices?
Jeremy: yeah, he just, he just kept
all of the evidence against him.
I'm gonna let Emily do
the, like, big recap.
I do want to say, like,
to sort of set this up.
This movie doesn't tell you what it's
about until about an hour and a half in
Emily: Mm hmm.
Jeremy: This movie is about how there's
not just one war in heaven, but there's
two wars in heaven, and then after Lucifer
got thrown out, the other angels, led
by Gabriel, got jealous of man, and so
also staged a rebellion, and have, I
guess, sort of been in between for all
this time, and they really want to beat
God, and to do it, they've decided that
the only way to do it is to like, find
this soul of this dude who definitely
is the most evil man to ever live, and
is definitely going to hell, and they're
gonna steal it first, so that this guy
can help them fight the other angels and
beat God, but also, Lucifer wants that,
and also, God's side is like, we can't let
them do that, and sends a pretty mediocre
angel of their own to try and stop it.
So it's like Gabriel and
his like, we don't even see
any of the rest of his army.
It's just him and his his various,
Ben: No, we see Gabriel as one
guy who gets fuckin like, thrown
out a window and get hit by a car.
Cause that's the level of overkill that
lets me know, oh, I'm in for a treat.
Emily: Oh, yeah.
So.
Jeremy: defined overkill in this movie.
So yeah, like Gabriel and his
guys who like, he also has a demon
who's sort of working with him.
And then there's Simon, who is
on the side of heaven, who sucks.
Simon is the worst part of this movie.
Ben: He really is.
I hate Simon so much.
Jeremy: eventually in the last 20 minutes,
like, fucking Viggo Mortensen shows up
as Lucifer, and fucking steals the movie.
From like, Christopher Walken
has been doing some great work
as Gabriel throughout this movie.
Everybody who's playing a human in
this movie is acting at about a 3.
And Christopher Walken is acting at a 10.
And then Viggo Mortensen shows up at a 15.
Like, in the last, the last 10
minutes of this
Ben: I You're gonna need a change
of pants when Viggo Mortensen shows
Emily: oh my
Ben: you're already going in knowing that.
What I was not prepared for Was
Christopher Walken's raw sex appeal.
Emily: Oh my god.
Ben: When he, when he's in the corner,
when he's in like the fucking morgue,
And he like, he puts his finger to his
lips, Points at the body as he walks
away, and it just catches on fire, Fuck,
Christopher Walken's never been sexier.
Emily: yeah, and he's also like
got really bad makeup and really
bad hair But he still is just mmm.
He's
Jeremy: I feel like all the really bad
makeup and bad hair is intentional.
It's like trying to make him look
featureless and angelic and everything.
It's, it's really fascinating.
But like, he has, like, Viggo Mortensen's
delivery and everything, he's really,
really good and really creepy.
But Gabriel has the line of the
movie, which is, he gives this
speech and he says, I'm an angel.
I kill firstborns while their mamas watch.
I turn cities to salt.
I even, when I feel like it,
rip the souls from little girls.
And from now till kingdom come, the
only thing you can count on in your
existence is never understanding why.
And that
line, it's just like, somebody
has that shit tattooed on
Ben: line of the movie.
That shit gave me chills.
That was so good.
And the best part of everything,
of every scene in Christopher
Walken is, is that you can never
tell to what degree he's gonna do
a Tom Waits impression that scene.
Emily: Yeah, it's a little
bit lower lower lower.
Ben: it's always Tom Waits, but he always
varies how much effort he's putting into
Jeremy: And I really love,
Emily: it starts at like classic
Tom Waits and it ends up at
like The black writer, you know,
Jeremy: yeah.
And they never give the angels
wings in this movie, which I think
is a reflection of how little
budget they had to make this movie.
But, they have both.
Christopher Walken and Viggo
Mortensen perch all over shit.
Like they're, you know, like
they are winged creatures.
And the way, like, all the other,
there's so many directing choices in this
movie that I'm like, I don't know, man.
I don't know what they're going for.
But as soon as, like, they,
Ben: choices were being made.
Jeremy: this, this choice to
have them, like, perch on things,
I was like, this is perfect.
Like, both of them,
Ben: That's the kind of batshit fuckery
that lets me know I'm like, Yessss,
Jeremy: Because when Viggo Mortensen
shows up, As Lucifer, an hour and
a half into the movie, he is on
screen before he says anything.
He's just perched in the background
in the darkness watching her, and
then just like, delivers his first
line from the shadows, from the
background, and I was like, Oh my god!
Everything about that is so good!
Emily: Yeah.
So my thesis statement about this film.
I'm going to say, yes, it technically
not very good politically.
Very dicey, however,
there are pieces here.
Of a fantastic whole.
They're just in a fucked up,
Ben: I
Emily: order, and every, I mean,
there's, there's one thing that I can
say about movies that are memorable,
is that the characters are memorable.
You have a lot of bit characters
in this movie that are, you know,
Jeremy says there's the main,
the protagonist acted a three.
Right?
But you have other characters that
are also acting at a 10, like fucking
Jerry and Rachel, who, yeah, who
Ben: can we okay, no, the coroner.
Can we talk about the fuckin
Okay, the coroner who is also
like, the dude from Seinfeld?
Emily: Yeah, he's actually in the other,
in Prophecy 2 as well, like the only actor
other than Christopher Walken that carries
Ben: And Prophecy 3!
They bring they bring coroner asshole
coroner back for three of these movies.
Emily: but he's such a
good, I mean, he's so good.
Ben: Oh, he's
Jeremy: gotta have somebody
to pronounce people dead, you
Ben: Look, he does deliver some lines
that are just fuckin just We've never had
a movie that dealt with intersex issues,
but this movie deals with it badly.
Emily: well, yeah.
Jeremy: very bad.
I mean, somehow worse than dogma.
I don't know.
Um,
Ben: movie has so much overlap
with Dogma, it's fuckin crazy.
Jeremy: right?
Ben: Gabriel has, like, fuckin Christopher
Walken has the exact same motivation
in this movie as Ben Affleck in Dogma.
Jeremy: I do have to point out that
fucking Rachel, who we're introduced to
as she's dying in a bed, and she gives
the best performance of dying and then
being brought back as she's dying in like
the most hateful and horrible fashion,
which is sort of Gabriel's shtick in
this, is like calling people back.
It's incredible, and like, she's, you
might miss her in this movie, but it's
Amanda Plummer, who is Honey Bunny from
Pulp Fiction, who is Vatic in like,
Star Trek Picard right now or I guess,
until it ended less than a year ago.
She's in the Fisher
Ben: But she
Jeremy: so great,
Ben: I love Amanda I was so happy
when I realized it was Amanda Plummer.
That was such a delightful surprise.
Emily: yeah, so you have, you have
like these beautiful, it's like, you
know, you're panning for gold here,
and yeah, it's mostly dirt, but your
nuggets are big so to speak, but let me,
Ben: where was like, where was
Viggo in his career at this point?
Like, what had he done, like, cuz
we're well before Lord of the Rings.
Jeremy: sexy, dangerous love interest at
this point, if I remember correctly, like,
Ben: He was in Leatherface he was
in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3.
Emily: I don't think that was before,
because I think Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3
Ben: He's in, like
Emily: used so much stuff.
Let me, let me see what's going on.
The Witness, Perfect Murder,
Ben: Now that's a guy whose life
has to be before Lord of the
Rings and after Lord of the Rings.
Emily: CRimson Tide, but that also
came out the same year as The Prophecy.
Carlito's Way, oh, I guess the
Leatherface one did come out before
Ben: Yeah, so he was in Leatherface, but
yeah, he's so fucking good in this movie.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: He's like, he comes in so late,
fucking steals the whole goddamn
movie, leaves without explanation,
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: like a
Emily: I mean, yeah, like, I mean,
Jeremy: Leaves literally dragging
Christopher walking behind him, like
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Tracking Christopher
Walken's corpse off with him as he
Ben: Amazing.
Emily: never have I seen actors
literally eat the scenery
like they have in this film.
Ben: Well, we need something to balance
out our main protagonist being like,
a wannabe Catholic priest turned cop.
Have we ever had a protagonist
that liked this much boot?
Emily: I don't know,
Ben: This dude, this dude is authoritarian
just by like, By Nate, he doesn't
have to do anything in the movie for
me to know he is an authoritarian.
Because his only paths in life
have been Catholic priest and cop.
Jeremy: Alicia made fun of
this dude throughout because,
Ben: Good!
Jeremy: looks so much like, to her,
like, Dave from Alvin and the Chipmunks
that just, like, he just, and he gives
off that vibe throughout, like, he's
just, like, annoyed to be there dealing
with these angels and, like, he's just,
his name is Daggett, Thomas Daggett.
He is a guy who was trying to be
a priest before, like, the, they
Ben: I forgot
Jeremy: him too
Ben: Daggett.
I just called him Casey
Jones the whole time.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And the fact that his fucking name
is Thomas, and his whole thing is
doubting, and nobody fucking calls him
Doubting Thomas in this fucking movie
at some point just drove me insane.
I was just like, oh, I see
what they're setting up.
And then they didn't do it.
And I was like, I don't know if
I'm mad or that you didn't do it.
Then I saw it coming so far ahead of time.
And then we've got like
Virginia Madsen playing.
Almost a love interest?
Like, there's never actually a love story
Emily: No, there's no
Jeremy: the part where she should
be the love interest, and like,
I mean, that's fine with me.
But also, for some reason,
Ben: She
Jeremy: they've, they've got her
hair dyed black which is weird to
see Virginia Madsen not blonde.
Emily: Yeah, because she was in
Ben: Oh, that's that's why
I didn't recognize her.
Emily: Yeah,
she was blonde in that.
Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to,
Jeremy: she
Ben: Does anyone else disappoint
that the angel Uziel didn't have like
to just come in dual wielding Uzis?
It's
Emily: well, it's
Ben: there in their name.
Give, no, you, no, in the movie it is
Uziel, U Z I E L in the credits, you
named an angel Uziel, give him Uzies.
Jeremy: know, I have not seen Prophecy
2, but all I needed to see to, like, look
at it and be like, I have to see this at
some point, is that Russell Wong plays
Danielle, the angel, in the next one.
Emily: Uh
Jeremy: I was like, he's an incredibly
beautiful dude playing this part.
And they're like, yes, he's sexy angel
who has a love child with a human.
I was like, go on.
Emily: Yeah, no, the second one, not as,
it's, it's still kind of mid, but like,
it does still have some great scenes.
With Gabriel and his like,
uh, wayward souls, you know?
Ben: I mean, I mean, this movie, it's
just great, like, the one good scene that
fucking Simon has, is when Uziel attacks
him, and before Uziel even fucking Bakes
it through the window, Simon is just
like, Ah, dangerous, and like, Angel
senses tingling, And fucking throws
himself at the window first, And just
shoulder checks Uzi on his way in midair.
Emily: yeah.
All right.
Ben: great.
Just man, just
inexplicably throwing himself across the
Jeremy: So you want to do the
Ben: Sorry, Emily,
Emily: I'll do it.
It's okay.
Let me, let me do the recap.
I'll try to be, uh, quicker
because it's it jumps around.
It's crazy.
So Simon introduces us to this movie.
He's an angel.
He's talking about words or whatever.
But the actual protagonist
is Thomas Daggett.
We see him.
He's a Los Angeles detective that
failed to become a priest because he
had excessive angel battle visions.
A random day for Thomas is interrupted.
By a visit from Simon, who invades
his home, purchase on his furniture,
and monologues about his angel visions
and Thomas is like, okay, and then and
even though Thomas is our protagonist,
we spent a lot of time with Simon,
now who is in his own apartment,
and another angel, not quite
as pretty as him, shows up.
He has no eyes.
The new angel has no eyes, like
Raiden of Mortal Kombat fame.
They fight over some kind of
Ben: Raiden has eyes!
Raiden
Emily: he doesn't.
According to the song by the Immortals,
Eternal Life, he's got no eyes.
It's in the lyrics.
Ben: eyes.
They're all white and cloudy and
lightening y, but they're, they're eyes.
Now Kenshi, that's the Mortal
Kombat character with no eyes.
Because they got stabbed out.
Emily: Well,
Ben: swordsman.
And he's awesome.
Emily: this angel has no eyes.
I mean, you know what?
He also doesn't have eternal life.
So,
Ben: Annoying Mortal Kombat nerd away.
Emily: yeah, it sounds good.
Seriously though, look at the,
check the, check the song.
It's the song.
It was before the lore
was really filled out.
Anyway, you keepin up?
Good, cause yeah, Simon and,
and this new angel fight.
Simon impales this angel on broken
glass, throws him out his fourth floor
window, onto a car, and then he is
hit by another car, and that's brutal.
So, Daggett is now officially part of the
story, as he is brought in to investigate
the, the murder of the Eyeless Man.
Or death, who knows?
But they go to the apartment,
and they find Simon's leftovers.
Which include an obituary for a
Korean war vet named Hawthorne,
Colonel Hawthorne, this is important.
Alright.
The dead body, of course.
And Thomas book that he wrote!
About angels!
What?
Meanwhile, in Chimney Rock,
Arizona, which, Arizona, by the
way, is the Florida of California.
It's where Californians go to die.
Simon shows up at a
church to smooch a corpse.
Ugh.
Simon shows up at a
church to smooch a corpse.
Hide in a school attic.
The teacher of that school,
apparently the only teacher at that
school, Catherine, who was played
by Virginia Madson, discovers him
and so does one of her students.
Mary the young Navajo question mark
girl, played by a Mariah shaman,
played by Mariah shining dove.
bAck in LA, Daggett's on the case, his
morgue contact Joseph, who is our Seinfeld
Steve Hittner, or Heitner, not sure
another of cinema's most kooky mortician
characters, explains that the eyeless
man corpse has more stuff about it that
is, indeed, whack, never had eyes, made
of fetus cells, both male and female
sex organs, weird brands on his neck,
carrying around an ancient bible with
extra gospels in it, but Daggett can use
his priest detective skills to figure
out that the book belongs to an angel
named Ussiel, who works for Gabriel.
Gabriel's kind of a big deal,
and we're about to find out why.
Now, here he is, about maybe 20 to 30
minutes into this movie, Gabriel, played
by Christopher Walken, busts down the
door, literally, immediately shreds
Lix, literally, and chews the scenery,
as he is desperately seeking Simon.
Why?
Well, we're about to find out.
Probably.
Eventually.
So, Mary has discovered Simon, and so
has Catherine, Simon is very creepy and
unwell and, Mary decides to feed him like
he's a stray kitten, and in return, he
decides to hide the soul that he sucked
out of the corpse, which is the soul of
Colonel Hawthorne, and put it in Mary.
Because he's just following
orders as we find out later.
It's gross and rude.
Ben: Not gonna say someone should search
Gregory Widen's hard drive, but Maybe
don't let him around kid actors anymore.
Emily: but yeah, the fact that there was
like the face to face action with Simon
Ben: It wasn't necessary.
You could've just had them go fake.
You could've just had them close up
and then some CGI swooshies go between
Jeremy: Or, you know, just turn the camera
around, like rotate it to where, like, Oh
yeah, they're obviously, like, mouth to
mouth on the other side, I'm wondering.
Ben: You did not need
this paycheck bad enough.
Emily: yeah.
Yeah.
I'm hoping that there was like
Ben: I hope.
Emily: in front 'cause it was, you
know, the film quality as Jeremy
said, was not great, but there's
still too much happening there.
So
Ben: one of the it's
This is not a real thing.
It's not like where you're
like, Oh, nothing I can do.
This is just how souls are
transferred between humans and angels.
That's real life.
Like, no.
This was a conscious decision you made.
You chose for You chose
to film it like that.
Why?
Emily: Yeah.
I, it's it's gross.
Ben: Yeah
Emily: and I don't like it.
However, and neither does
Gabriel, which makes me pretty
sympathetic to Gabriel's end here.
Gabriel's still in Los Angeles.
Get it?
Ben: Eh, I didn't, but now I do.
Emily: Okay.
Cool.
Gabriel can't just follow the angel stink.
Like, apparently angels can follow
each other's stink around and locate
each other, but Simon's too far away.
So
Ben: that first scene where he does
that, where Christopher Walken is
introduced to licking blood off a table.
Emily: he's, he's got the scent.
He's got all that.
So he needs some,
Ben: this movie.
Emily: Gabriel needs some help
because he doesn't want to drive and
he doesn't want to break into the
police officer or the police station.
So, he collect a reluctant
mortal on the verge of death,
presumably dying of suicide.
Named Jerry played by Adam Goldberg.
Jerry doesn't want to do this,
but Gabriel has some sort of
sway over his soul, so he does.
Jeremy: in a different
Ben: Okay, so I think
Emily: Yeah, Jerry is in Dogma,
Ben: Yeah, oh, Jerry is very much a dog.
This is like, A very classic,
like, comedy movie villain henchman
dynamic they have going on.
So, I, we don't get with Jerry, but I
Gabriel does explain the leverage later
with Amanda Plummer, which is that if
he doesn't, that they don't obey him he
won't let them fully die and move on,
he will just keep them trapped in an
eternally rotting, dying body forever.
Emily: that is the thing about the
first few acts of this movie, is
that there's not a lot of explicit
uh, reason for things that Gabriel
does, and I think that's on purpose,
because, you know, now until Kingdom
Come, you will never know why.
Ben: But even then, like, it feels like
there's something missing, like, there
should have been a scene of him collecting
Jerry, or, instead of just being, like,
Cause I felt like it was almost missing,
like, we cut to, like, here is a suicidal
guy who is working for Christopher Walken.
Emily: Well, they had a scene where
we see Jerry and he's listening to a
sad song and he's like on the verge of
death in his apartment and all his food
is rotting around him and then Gabriel
shows up and he's like, Hey, Jerry.
And Jerry's like, Hey, Gabriel,
like everybody who sees Gabriel
on the verge of death recognizes
him, which is really interesting.
Ben: okay, I think that's what fucked
me up about that, was, I'm like,
oh, he must be, like, Connected
to the supernatural world already
if he's recognizing the angel.
Emily: I think it's just because Gabriel,
Ben: This movie's not really
good at making sense, and that's
another reason why I love it.
Jeremy: Yeah, this is the only
movie that Wyden ever directed.
He is responsible for writing
this, and the Highlander.
And several other, like,
backdraft he also wrote.
He wrote, some episodes of Tales from
the Crypt and Space Rangers, but, like,
this is the only thing he ever directed,
and I do think it shows in some spots,
because some of the directing is rough,
and it feels like there are some places
where, like, they just didn't get any
good footage, and so they use, like,
Kind of bad, like, helicopter shots
in a few spots, and they use, like,
some stuff that definitely feels like
the cuts are weird, they're sliced
together in a weird way, but, um,
Ben: this movie kinda reminded me
of Nightbreed, in that it felt like
this was a writer with a lot of ideas
and not so much directing skills.
Emily: Yeah, a lot of really awesome
ideas, but not a lot of like, organization
of how to present those ideas with a
Ben: Yeah, it's like there's, yeah, it's,
Emily: And you know, we have
some performances that kind of
tie the whole thing together.
That
Ben: god, do we ever.
Emily: yeah.
Um,
Jeremy: I was, I described it after
I watched it as like, it's very much
like a B movie that is elevated by
a couple of really good performances
that, you know, puts it in the, puts
it in the area where it ends up getting
six progressively worse sequels and,
Emily: yeah.
Ben: I'm also realizing that the
plot being like, oh, we need to
get a soul, a human soul, who
can do what we angels can't.
To help us win an angel a
celestial war is also the plot
of the South Park PSP episode.
Emily: I am not familiar.
Ben: Oh Kenny dies and the angels
recruit him, and he's also really good
at this game on PSP, which the angels
made to find a general, so he can
then lead their forces against hell.
Emily: that sounds like it is, um, very
Jeremy: Last Starfighter Enders Game,
Ben: yes, very much so.
But, it And then some other fucked up
shit is also going on because it's a
South Park episode in the early mid 2000s.
Jeremy: naturally.
Emily: Um,
Ben: explain the rest of that episode, you
can look it up on your own if you want.
Emily: all right.
So, gabriel has recruited
Jerry to collect the evidence
left in Simon's apartment.
So they can have a little bit of, I
don't know, a lead on where Simon went.
Daggett still has the Bible.
Which he has now translated the
extra Gospels to find out what the
prophecy, the titular prophecy is,
and it involves this dark soul.
The angels need the dark soul to
help them win their war, not against
God, but against the other angels.
Because God, as we find out later, is
not really part of this whole situation.
God's like, deuces, I'm out.
You guys are just too fucked up for
me, I can't deal with you anymore.
So, at least that's what is implied.
Ben: that even count as a twist?
Because I feel like any story that
explicitly involves like angels,
devils, and hell, and except for,
with the exception of the Preacher
comics, kind of usually figures out a
way to like, shoo God off to the side.
Emily: Well, Dogma has God come in,
Ben: Yes, that's
Jeremy: she was recording
Ironic at this point, though.
Emily: it's like rain
Ben: Yeah, so she wouldn't
have been available for this
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: Yeah, it's ironic that she
Ben: you know what, you're
right, dogma, oh, I love dogma,
Emily: Dogma's so good.
Um,
Jeremy: was released in 1996 this
came out in 95 So she's probably
recording the album at this
Emily: yeah, that was, that was
Jeremy: God couldn't be in the movie.
Emily: She was too busy getting
pissed off at Dave Goulier.
Alright.
Ben: it's insane that song's
about Dave Coulier, right?
Emily: proof that God's love.
Is,
Jeremy: it's about those
Ben: like, again, like, think about
all the people in Full House, if it was
John Stamos, oh, fuck, yeah, of course.
If it was Bob Saget, eh,
sure, but Dave Coulier?
Emily: I'm just glad she cut him out.
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right.
So, figures out the prophecy.
Gabriel can't rob a police station
and break into a morgue at the same
time, so he goes to the morgue, uses
his angel powers to find the body of
Uziel, and he's like, I'm sorry, bro.
Gives him a little kiss
and then sets him on fire.
And, now Daggett's like, well, shit,
there's something going on here.
So I'm gonna go to Chimney Rock.
Chimney Rock.
Because that's where the Hawthorne is.
I hope you picked that up before
because that was mentioned once.
Jeremy: It's also I do want to point
out that just in America Chimney rock
is the name of a lot of places that
have similar shaped rock formations.
Not a great like thing to hang your
whole plot on that somebody's like
you have to go to Chimney Rocks and
he's like I guess I chose the right
one Let me cuz I would do everything
in my power not to go to Arizona, but
It does check out that this racist
Korean War general who is the worst
person in the world The lived in Arizona
Ben: What I kept waiting to happen was
the reveal that, like, There was something
going on, like, what this guy did, like,
had something to do, like, with the war.
Like, that it wasn't
just, racist war crimes.
It was like, oh, they were angel
zombies, and I had to, and I was in
a whole other fucking horror movie.
And so it's like, so I'm not, so like that
was, so I've been tied to this whole time.
But no, that never happens.
He's just like a racist
m m murder monster.
Emily: yeah, and he's, yeah, he is the
prophesied soul of all of the evil,
Jeremy: faces.
He kept faces in his In his possession,
in his human house, after like being
tried for war crimes and apparently
getting off, he continued to
Ben: Which, how?
How did
Jeremy: skinned human
faces in his house, like,
Ben: You can't just buy those on Etsy.
Emily: Not
Ben: I, I assume not
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: not having searched for it.
There's gotta be,
Emily: Ed Gein was dead at this
Ben: there's gotta be some
Hannibal fan sites you can get some
fucked up placemats from, I bet.
Emily: Well, I mean, they're not real
and there might be, you might find
some that are made out of like sheep or
something, but I have no idea, honestly.
Anyway, yeah, so go ahead.
Ben: Listeners, I'm so sorry, Emily.
I know you're frustrated with me.
Emily: okay.
Ben: Mil listeners out there who
might be in the military let us know.
Does the military let you keep the
tape of your court marshal, Dr.
Like
Emily: Yeah, like,
Jeremy: he's got recordings of
Ben: home like a home video?
Jeremy: he's got reel to reels of the
filmed evidence against him and his guys
of sacrificing and eating, apparently,
people and also reel to reel film of
his court martial just in his house.
Ben: I love that.
It's just labeled evidence
Emily: I like, my guess is
that the military was just so
baffled by how to deal with it.
They're like, as long as you
shut up and go to Arizona and
don't talk to anybody about this.
You can have your
Jeremy: you go to Arizona and
think about what you've done.
Emily: yeah, what, you know, we'll
give you a discharge, apparently
you'll still get a fucking veterans
memorial and a veterans funeral, which
like, they didn't have to do that,
Ben: and I think the US military
might not be the good guys.
Emily: I mean, yeah, well, yeah,
Lucifer has some words about that.
So, okay, so, Daggett finally
heads to Chimney Rock, but so does
Gabriel, and, Jerry is driving him,
because driving is monkey work, and
apparently Simon took public transit.
I don't know.
Jeremy: I'm not clear on whether
Gabriel doesn't drive because he can't,
or he's just refused to learn how.
Emily: he
Jeremy: Like if, if there's some sort
of holy ordinance that keeps him from
driving a car, because he says, like,
he tells the girl later, I can't drive.
But he doesn't say whether it's like
because for some reason he's not allowed
to or just he thinks it's beneath him
Like why why would I fucking learn to
Ben: I imagine it's the similar
to, yeah, I kind of saw it as like,
when Piccolo and Goku learn to
drive in that one filler episode.
It's like, they don't need
to, they can angel teleport.
Emily: well, also we have seen that
cars are very effective against angels.
So maybe there's like, that car could
like run over him twice or something
if he looks, if he doesn't have like
a human behind the wheel, because cars
have like some sort of vendetta against
angels, because if you drop an angel in
an alleyway, it will get run over twice.
Anyway, so, Gabriel has found
his way to Chimney Rock.
And is digging up, is having
Jerry dig up Hawthorne's grave.
But alas, his soul is in another body.
So, Gabriel has to find Simon, and he
can because his nearby angels stink.
And they, they find each other and they
act a lot and kiss each other about divine
vagaries and about how humans suck, etc.
And Simon won't tell
Gabriel where the soul is.
anD, Simon had to do this because
he's following orders, which I think
is important to note because of what
he did, which is assault a child.
And Gabriel's like, okay, well,
I'll set you on fire for a while
and then pull your heart out.
So Mary is now very sick
with evil possession.
Doctors can't fix it, so she
turns to traditional Navajo
question mark methods, I presume.
This is where they mention the hand
trembler, which, the line here is,
the doctors couldn't find anything,
so we talked to the hand trembler
to see if she could have a sing.
Which,
Jeremy: and correct me if I'm wrong But
this is the only line delivered by the
mother right or grandmother whatever
she is of Mary because she does not
talk notably throughout the movie and
then like I think this may have been
overdubbed because, like, we're seeing,
you know, the hand trembler and stuff
at work here so I don't know if they
just, like, they, this was the one
instance where they felt, like, this
is too much generic Native American
spiritualism, we need to give it a name.
Emily: yeah.
Well, and I mean, I don't know, like,
it did sound like she was, she was
actually saying those words, but I
don't know voice dubbing is pretty
good sometimes but I think, yeah, that
was her only full sentence that she
spoke in the movie so, anyway, so,
and the Hand Trembler, according to
the internet, the bit of research that
I did on the internet is sort of a,
like, We're going to try to figure out
what's wrong with you kind of thing.
So that's what was going on there.
Did the director do any research?
I have no idea.
So anyway Daggett is now here in Chimney
Rock, the party's in full swing, Mary's
reminiscing about war crimes, Simon is
literal toast, Hawthorne has been buried
twice, Gabriel is perching uncomfortably.
But hey, at least we found the evidence of
the war crimes, such as the aforementioned
faces and also good job on casting,
finding one of the most dead eyed
motherfuckers I've ever seen in cinema.
Like, that guy was
Ben: They found a real G.
Gordon Liddy looking motherfucker.
Emily: that dude was, like, he, when
he stared, like, I was uncomfortable.
Like, I have seen a lot of people
try to stare in a movie and be, like,
spooky, but that dude, especially in
the, like, film reel where they find
him at, like, the wherever with all of
the impaled bodies at the site of the
whatever massacre that he was warcrimbing
at, and the expression on his face of,
like, just wide eyed, You Like nothing.
Fucking terrifying.
So yeah, he's the one that's gonna
help Gabriel win over Heaven,
Jeremy: Yeah, he's so he's
played by Patrick McAllister.
He's not credited in the actual credits
of the movie because of the type of role
and also the fact that Patrick McAllister
was in total of like three other movies
and the last one before this was 1974.
So.
He was in It's Alive in 1974 so it's,
it's, yeah, because it's a weird
part, they don't credit him as the
actor, they just credit, special
things credit him in the film.
Emily: Okay.
I see why now, cause like, he does
deserve credit for performance, but
Yeah, I can see why I wouldn't want
that, like, explicitly on his CV.
So after seeing the faces and the videos
and stuff, Daggett is like, wow, that
was fucked up, so he goes to church.
He meets Gabriel there and Christopher
Walkin performs all of the gilding
off of the altar and then some.
And that's where we have, you
know, that dent in your upper lip
way back before you were born.
I told you a secret.
I put my finger there and I said, shh.
Ben: Walken is so fucking good in this
Emily: yeah, angels are Italian.
Makes sense because Catholic people
Jeremy: Walken also, Gabriel does
this thing throughout the movie of
just calling people by their name
even though he doesn't, he shouldn't
know their name, and they're
like, And every time
somebody's like, do I know you?
How did you know my name was so and so?
He'll be like, ah, you
just look like a so and so.
He tells Thomas, you
just look like a Thomas.
Ben: I love that beat.
Also, he has more Italian angels.
Hey, I'm flyin over here.
Emily: I am smiting over here.
Ben: I'll poke ya, and
I'll forya your eyes.
Emily: there you go.
Yeah, it was weird that the
angels, like, when they were
human, they didn't have eyes.
Maybe because they, they had too
many before they settled on the
Ben: like, they just, they don't
have eyes, but then they blink, and
they get eyes, and Uziel is just
like, nah, I'm gonna daredevil it.
Emily: Yeah, Uziel's like, I got my nose.
I'm gonna follow my nose.
Like, all those angels
have special scent powers.
I don't know.
Alright, so now we're back to Gabriel.
We find him uncomfortably soliciting
the School of Children for the Dark
Soul, using his angelic presence
and cool trumpet to gather them
around him and earn their trust.
CaTherine rightly recognizes this as
sussy as fuck and disperses the crowd,
but not before Gabe gets a lead on Mary.
Jerry's still there,
although visibly rotting.
And Christopher Walken does not get his
mouth that close to any of the children.
He does look in their mouths
while he's, like, looking for the
soul, but all he can find is math.
So Mary's family organized a healing
ceremony to purge Hawthorne's racist ass
spirit from Mary, uh, at the Old Woman's
Butte, and Daggett fills in Catherine on
his crazy story about fucked up angels.
Catherine then takes Daggett to Gabriel's
secret hiding place that she randomly knew
about, in a local abandoned copper mine,
and they see crazy angel war visions.
It's all coming together, I guess.
And then they finally figure out here that
Gabriel's after Mary, but it's too late.
He's already there at her grandmother's
trailer where they try to get to pick
her up, they confront him, they almost
get Gabriel'd, and that's where we get
our really good line that, that Jeremy
mentioned earlier about, you know,
you'll never know why, from here to Kim,
you'll never know why tear the souls
out of little girls, , but Mary shoots
Gabriel, buying them time to escape.
They try to explode Gabriel
and Mary's grandma's trailer.
But they don't quite finish the job.
Fortunately, cool, Colonel Hawthorne
knows how to kill an angel and tells
them to cut Gabriel's heart out.
But he's already on his way to the
morgue, question mark, in the cop car.
buT Jerry got to die, so good for him.
Now the scene is set for the climate.
Climax, they're all gathered, well,
Daggett, Catherine, Grandma, and
Mary all gather at Old Woman's
Butte for the ceremony to heal her.
Gabriel, meanwhile, recruits another
dying mortal soul from the hospital.
That's Rachel, played by Amanda Plummer.
She'll be his new driver.
A night falls as the ceremony
continues, but who's this?
Catherine is visited by none
other than the first angel once
loved above all others, Lucifer,
played by Viggo Mortensen.
He is here to be scary, make
deals, and provide exposition.
As long as angels are in heaven, or
excuse me, as long as angels in heaven
are at war, human souls can't ascend.
Gabriel wants the war criminal for
a general for his war with the other
angels, because humans are just as
fucked up, if not more, than angels.
But angels need to follow
orders in order to be fucked up.
Lucifer can help because he doesn't want
the assholes in heaven to ruin his game.
He manhandles Daggett to remind him
that he is on the he has an edge on
Gabriel, which is a question of faith.
If he can try to test Gabriel's
faith, then he might be able to
catch him off guard so they gear
up for the final confrontation.
Rachel drives Ga Gabriel up to
the Butte, but Daggett set up
a chains to close line the car.
There's all sorts of car damage
but then he rags on Gabe for
not having a soul like a loser.
GaBe shrugs it off and dad tries
to run him over with his truck,
but is attacked by Rachel.
Ben: Jagged is so fucking
soulless in this movie.
Emily: Yeah, he's
Ben: Soul He's a soul supremacist.
Emily: Yeah.
So,
Daggett tries to run
Gabe over with the truck.
He's attacked by Rachel.
Rachel gets to die finally.
Gabe interrupts the holy ceremony hut,
and the white girl in there shoots him
with gun, which, doesn't seem very, like,
cool for, like, a ceremony like that
going on, like, But I don't think this
is, I really, really hope this is a set.
And not like, this was
not filmed on location.
Um, I
Jeremy: All of this stuff was filmed,
was filmed on Native American land,
uh, and they had to, uh, make certain
promises about the amount of damage
they were and weren't going to do.
There's a, a story about the, um, the
damage they did and didn't do, because
they, they talked to the folks at the,
reservation afterwards about it, and
there's, so apparently, according to
the DP, they were, uh, driving out onto
the road one night, coming back from,
uh, the shoot and got onto the road,
and, uh, hit an owl with their van while
they were out filming this and the owl
exploded across the front of their van.
Ben: That tends to happen
when owls hit vans,
Jeremy: Yeah.
And, uh, when they were leaving and
they were discussing any damage they
had done, the chief said, uh, it's not
like you killed an owl or anything.
Everything, everything else is,
everything you've done is fixable.
So apparently they did not
not correct him on that one.
Ben: I, put me in that
situation and I would also lie.
I would lie through my fucking teeth.
Emily: mean, that's a rough one.
That's a rough one.
I have to think about that.
That's a question, that's a question
that'll baffle Gabriel for sure.
Ben: I guess, I don't know,
owls are definitely a thing.
Like, whenever owls showed up, I
don't know the whole story, but I know
whenever owls showed up in Reservation
Dogs, they were like, Blurred out.
Emily: yeah, owls, owls are bad news.
To a lot of tribes.
You can't, if they look at you, it's bad.
Ben: Makes it I mean, like, if an
owl ever just started, like, staring
at me, I'd I'd be like, Oh, I'm
about to get fucked up by an owl.
Emily: I mean, it depends on
the kind of staring, because
Jeremy: think I'm about to die of owl.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: Even the little
fuckers, they're fast!
They'll get me!
Emily: cute.
They're so cute.
They're like cats, but birds.
Anyway, so Daggett, speaking of damage
Daggett tries to run over Gabriel and
instead just runs the truck right into
the ceremony hut destroying the wall.
but fortunately it interrupts
Gabriel, who's at the time
trying to kill Catherine.
DaGgett jumps out of the car and
tries beating Gabriel to death with a
crowbar, but is interrupted by Lucifer.
Lucifer turns to all the people
in the hut, tells them to finish
the ritual and so they do.
And he then finishes off Gabriel
with a lot of sultry whispering
and touching and pulling of hearts
out, and, so Mary is exercised.
The colonel's soul is destroyed by
heaven and Gabriel is dragged off
by Lucifer, who makes a few final
overtures to Catherine and Daggett.
And then, the next day, the sun
rises and we're all dust in the wind.
Man, we don't know what our
role is in God's plan, but at
least we can do what we're told,
says the bootlegger at the end.
So yeah.
That's the, you know, that's
the order that things happen,
more or less, in this movie.
What is hard for me to express
here is the performances.
Jeremy: Mortensen and his fucking
crouching on things, aggressively
whispering at people about how
Either they can talk to him, or
he can lay them out and fill their
mouth full of their mother's feces.
Boy.
Boy, what a performance.
Like, he's in this movie for probably
a grand total of five minutes.
But like, if you don't come away
from this movie going like, Shit.
The, the, when he first, Cause like that
first scene is kind of at night, and he's
crouching, and you're like, he's scary.
And then the second one that he's
in, he comes up to Tommy in the
middle of the day, and he's like,
And the way he says, Little Tommy
Daggett, how I loved listening to
your sweet prayers every night.
And then you jump into bed,
so afraid I was under there.
And I was.
Like, it's just like, AHH!
Ben: That oh,
Jeremy: Stop it!
Get away from me!
Emily: grips him.
Ben: God, I mean, the whole relationship
that he has with Daggett, the
whole I love you more than Jesus.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: That, like, they bond over
knowing and losing God's voice
and love, like, oh my God.
It's so good.
Emily: he also,
Jeremy: it's so interesting to me that
he's not the bad guy of the story either.
Like, he just wants what's his.
And he's on the side of
the good guys, essentially.
Because like, like, His speech
about how like, you know what hell
really is Thomas It's not links
of burning oil and chains of ice.
It's being removed from God's sight
having his word taken from you
It's it's hard to believe so hard.
I know that better than anyone And then
like his explanation for why he's there
Why he like wants them to lose is he's
just like well what they want is this,
world without God and that's just another
hell and two hells is one too many.
And I was just like, oh my God.
Everything about him, his existence
there is like perfect, right?
Like he, he's only there because like
they're fucking up his shit, you know?
Emily: yeah, and it also speaks
to this kind of interesting, to
the idea that Lucifer is still
doing a job for the word, right?
Like, he can't rule in heaven, so,
God cannot, like, God is like, all
right, you get, if you really want
to be in charge of something, you
can be in charge of this, and you can
be in charge of punishing everybody
that's bad, and now you can judge.
Ben: I always thought of Lucifer as
less like a fallen angel and more
as like a regional branch manager.
Jeremy: I think I, I love the
line that Gabriel gets off about
him, which is like, you're still
from your breakup with the boss.
It's like, oh my God.
So good.
Emily: The chemistry, it's funny,
because you have this, what I suppose,
like you said, supposed to be romantic
interest Daggett and Catherine, but
there's so much more chemistry between
Gabriel and Lucifer and Gabriel and
everyone, even Gabriel and Simon, like,
Christopher Walken comes in and he's like,
kissing everyone's hand and their head.
And it's very like,
Ben: Everyone but not the but
crucially, and I can't believe I have
to fucking specify it, Not the kids.
Emily: No, he does not touch the kids.
Ben: giving them like black
Jeremy: He's just looking in their mouths
and letting them play his trumpet, which
Ben: Which is normal Christopher
Walken creepiness, levels of
Christopher Walken creepiness.
That, that's acceptable margins of
creepiness, and also it's a black
canary trumpet and that's fun.
Irrelevant!
I kept expecting that to come into
play later in the movie and it
Jeremy: no, it's so like, Gabriel's
role in the apocalypse is that when
he plays his trumpet, that will sound
at the beginning of the apocalypse.
So he's just letting these kids play with
this fucking apocalypse trumpet of his.
And I was just like, this is.
It's so like, so Chris for walking,
but so this character of Gabriel
that he's like, no, here you can
play with the apocalypse trumpet.
Just don't blow it too hard.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben: I didn't even pick up on that
imagery, I didn't even know that part.
Emily: Well,
Jeremy: there's a lot of little things
that are like biblical, weird little
biblical references, like the fact
that his name is Thomas and he's always
doubting, uh, or like, the one good line
that Simon has is that when he first meets
Mary, uh, he's like, what's your name?
And she's like, oh, my name's Mary.
And he's like, of course.
But
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: was like, okay, all
Ben: I re the one
Emily: acting there was so good where
it was, and he didn't really say much.
He was, he was like,
Ben: I think you can really appreciate
just the sheer difference in vibes between
Simon and Gabriel in the whole like,
fucking putting a finger to the lips.
Because after Simon throws Uzil out
the window, he like, he fucking like,
he blows a kiss, like he kisses his
fingers like it's an action one liner,
and it just gave me the fuck out.
Meanwhile, Christopher Walken
does his shhh body on fire,
and I had to go fan myself.
Jeremy: But also they're
Emily: when he points at me.
Jeremy: they're all like, all these love
things that like, you know, the, the
angels are like, Simon's big on loving
people and Gabriel says like, love, you
know, in heaven we're all about love.
That's like, that's what we care about.
And Lucifer's like, love?
I don't love you.
Like, it's just, it's so,
it's so well delivered.
Ben: You know what the vibes are?
The moods are like, Viggo Mortensen
is like, is bringing like, Dirt
Boy Aragorn, which, scientifically
impossible to resist, like.
Jeremy: he's strider.
This is, this is,
Emily: he is strider.
Yeah.
Ben: Walken is bringing, you know,
that Tarantino slickness to it,
and, honestly, fucking Eric Stoltz's
Simon looks like he should be
arguing Star Wars in a Clerks movie.
Emily: Yeah, kinda.
I mean, he does have the
pretty eyes and he's,
Ben: The the long hair and the goatee
is a combo that's doing him no favors.
Emily: That's true.
Jeremy: and the color of the hair
is so like weird and artificial
and 80s and I don't know.
Ben: Notice how I'm not bringing
a ginger no souls joke into it,
even though that would be plot
appropriate, but I'm better than that.
Emily: I know.
I know you're better than that.
I appreciate you for that.
Jeremy: I think we're at our limit of
South Park references tonight anyway.
Ben: It's I think I've done more in
this episode than I have the entire,
like, years we've been doing this show.
Emily: I think I will say I do
like the idea when the devil
first shows up in South Park.
I really did like that
character of the devil.
Where he set everybody up to
bet on him, in the, uh, the
Ben: Oh, and then through
the fight to Jesus?
Yes.
Emily: and then he fucking, like,
threw the match just to fuck
with everybody and I was like,
Ben: Well, I'll always love the episode
about mobile games, which came out
while I was a mobile game designer
and just fuckin speakin and tearin
someone's heart out of their chest.
Ooh.
I will always love when they
summon the devil so the devil can
just explain the psychology and
science behind gambling addictions.
Emily: I didn't see that one, but, um,
Ben: great, and it really fucking calls
to task how utterly toxic and antithetical
to good game design the entire free
to play model is, and just how, what
fucking Truly evil addiction machines
most free to play mobile games are.
Emily: I kind of dig that though.
Like,
Ben: Oh, it's one of their best ep
it's one of their best episodes ever.
Emily: Okay, good.
I
Ben: And it came out while I was working
on those evil, evil addiction machines.
Emily: At least that's validating,
like in a way where you're like, Oh, I
know, I, there's something wrong here.
Oh, someone else knows.
Okay.
Jeremy: Just Leonardo DiCaprio GIF.
Just
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: mh
Ben: living in Silicon Valley was crazy
because like And then they put Silicon
Valley show comes out and it's like we're
a bunch of scrappy technology optimists
We're gonna make a startup and get rich
and change the world and I'm like, oh no
you you're also falling for this bullshit
Three years of living in Silicon Valley at
every point I felt like I was one of the
bad guys in that Matt Damon Alicia movie
where all the rich people lived in space
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: I'm like this place is bad We're bad.
I need to do something more ethical,
which is why I went to business school.
Emily: But now you're writing good
comics that you wrote and, and, and books
Ben: and
Emily: books are out now.
Ben: yay, and not mobile games.
Emily: Yes, there you go.
Like maybe we don't understand the plan.
But at least we can do our part in it.
Ben: My old game company was created
by someone literally from Bain Capital,
Mitt Romney's old venture capital firm.
Emily: Jesus, is that
where Bane came from?
Ben: That would be great.
That would be great, but I feel
like knowing Chuck Dixon, he would
have made it a hero in that case.
Emily: Jesus.
So there's a lot, we talked a little
bit about the progressive politics,
and a lot of the, like, huge missteps
that this movie made, and I want to
start out with the Native American
stuff, because I think that's the first
thing we've mentioned, other than the,
child kissing and that's the first
thing I think We should finish here.
Ben: I mean, it's like, it's there, but
like It's not like any of the Native
American characters, like, are characters.
It's not like these
are people with agency.
These are just, like,
mystical MacGuffin people.
Emily: yeah.
And so I don't see why it's important
to have them be Native Americans.
Jeremy: I think, like, they established
that The things that would be,
like, righteous heroes in Christian
mythology are the bad guys of this
movie, like, angels are not there
to help them, angels are bad, like,
that is sort of the baseline of this
movie is that even the good angels,
that their function is to kill people.
Like, that's what they
do.
Ben: like the whole,
Jeremy: know, There's a point
where he says, if you, would
you want to see an angel?
Because, like, they don't come
down here to do good stuff.
Like, they come down here to kill people.
Ben: line they have where
it's like, Loving God with one
wing always dipped in blood.
wHat I will, what I will say, a little
point I give it, a credit I give it
for, Native, for the use of, uh, Native
American mythology and imagery is,
and you know, I complained about this
when we were doing our evil episode,
how it was very, like, No, actually,
only Catholic dogma is correct.
And that is the true thing.
So I do appreciate that, by having
that Native element, by having their
Traditions, their rituals, and showing
that being effective and valid, it
did help it escape this kind of We're
saying Judeo Christian is the one, ah,
fucking Judeo Christian, hate that term.
We're saying Christian mythology
is the one true mythology.
So I do appreciate it using that
to kind of avoid that pitfall.
So, a sil a silver lining around it.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: and it's, but it's a very,
like, 80s representation, right?
It's like, Native Americans are good.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: dot, dot.
They're not, like, people, per se.
But, like,
Emily: holy force that's more holy
Because we, the people telling the
story, white people, don't understand
What their their ceremonies are about so
Ben: I could have done a whole fucking
film of this old white man war criminal
inside the body of this native girl.
Would have been absolutely
an insane 90s movie.
Emily: I mean, it's the 90s was not
prepared to make have that conversation
Ben: No, which is why I wanted them to
do it anyway, because it would be the
most bonkers ass fucking film nowadays.
Emily: I mean, it was
already pretty bonkers.
Um,
Ben: ass movie.
Emily: I wish I do wish that there was.
Ben: film!
I don't think I recommend
it, but I do love it.
Emily: there's a the fetishization
I think is the biggest, like,
I mean, it's that issue, but I
really do like the idea of, like.
There's a Native Americans doing
a ceremony and then a bunch of
angels show up and they're like,
okay um, can we finish please?
Because they ain't like, they
don't mean shit to these people.
Like, that's a then
that's kind of how I see.
Jeremy: It has a really kind of
like American godsy kind of feel of
like, you know, there's all these
mythologies are sort of going on
at the same time like, it's the
believing that gives things power but
Ben: You know, there's there's
a version of this story where
it is properly from a native.
Perspective, and you almost have a
metaphor of angels as colonialism.
Emily: Yeah, and there's there's
some pretty interesting work that
discusses that has sort of that
allegorical story where it's.
Gods of the people that are invading,
fighting the gods of the people who
are being invaded, and that's sort
of, that is happening and I'm always
interested in that, because it's, just a,
Jeremy: interesting.
Yeah, I
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: did say to Alicia
when we were watching this.
That, uh, Lucifer turning into a
flock of crows to leave the Native
American reservation is appropriation.
Emily: They were doves.
Ben: 100%.
Uh,
Jeremy: doves, not
Emily: doves.
No, Lucifer turned into doves.
Jeremy: Lucifer did not turn into
Emily: He absolutely turned into doves.
Look at that, look at that screenshot.
Ben: I think Lucifer turned into seagulls.
Emily: They were absolutely doves.
Ben: Lucifer turns into beach trash birds.
Emily: He may be turning
into crows and doves, but
Ben: Just
Jeremy: Birds are used
to symbolize the angels.
For example, Gabriel perches
on a bench and looks exactly
like a bird in his silhouette.
Lucifer explodes into
crows when departing early.
No, that's in
Ben: That was an effect.
The I feel like we need to highlight
the fucking special effect of Corey
Stoltz's face, quote unquote, on fire?
Emily: do we?
Ben: That, I mean, I don't have any
witty commentary over it other than
just, Yeah, that sure was a special
That was a very special effect.
Emily: It was very, very special effect.
The other special effect that is,
that was only there for like a split
second of the movie was the soul
leaving Mary, which was like this
really kind of weird, uncanny X Files y
Ben: Very uncanny valley.
Emily: Yeah, where her, she was like,
her body was bloated as if she was like.
Ben: I didn't like that.
I, I The glowing was fine.
I didn't need the bloatedness.
Emily: yeah, the way, like, she was
trying to, like, lay an egg through
her face or something like that, like,
it was just really, really weird and
uncomfortable, like, a lot of the
Ben: I dislike how accurate
that description shit is.
Jeremy: so much stuff happening in the
last, like, five minutes of this movie.
That, like, like, I was, I
didn't even talk about that,
like, when Lucifer leaves.
We talked about that line earlier
of him hiding under the bed.
But that, like, when he's leaving, he's
trying to get Thomas to go with him.
And Thomas is like I have my
soul, what do you have, angel?
And he's like, leave the light on, Thomas.
And then like, leaves on
that light, I was like, ah!
It's so good!
Like, he's like, hey, fucker.
I'm always there.
I'm always gonna be there.
Emily: yeah.
And it's funny, because I was just, I
was thinking about the whole idea of
the devil being the one who is still
there, who talks to people all the time.
God doesn't talk to
everybody all the time.
There's a lot of people who ask
God questions and he's silent.
But the devil will always be there,
because you always know the wrong thing.
Yeah,
Ben: I do love it.
Now, I do want to ask you guys, given that
we did talk about the similarities with
Dogma, in terms of like, given how much
Gabriel and Bartleby and Dogma have like
the same motivations, this kind of hating
God, being driven into this insane rage
from just God's favor of humanity, which
do you think did the motivation better?
Like, which ones do you think kind of
really just like, sold, like, sold it?
I feel
Jeremy: feel like
they spend a lot more time focusing
on the motivation and dogma.
Ben: They did, yeah.
Jeremy: it's almost like passing
in this, that he's just like, no.
I'm, I fucking hate that guy.
Ben: You're right.
I think it, yeah we see Gabriel
fully formed, whereas we actually
get to see Bartleby develop into
that, this villain in Dogma.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, and, and Dogma is
more of a character study where,
I mean, Gabriel, like, Christopher
Walken gives that character, I think,
a lot more than was in the script.
Ben: Oh, 100%.
Oh my, when he's just yelling, Stop!
Stop the car!
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
Ben: That, that's my Walken
impersonation, apparently!
Ah, I apologize to everybody.
Emily: he's
Jeremy: I apologize,
Emily: entire walkacy into it.
Jeremy: What, he fucking
calls Thomas a pest?
Oh, I love it.
Like, because Thomas shoots his
other guy and he's like, PEST!
Do you know how hard it
is to get one of those?
I was like, oh my god, these, the,
like, that line could have just been
thrown away, but he's just, Christopher
Walken is there for every line.
Ben: Christopher Walken and Viggo
Mortensen elevate the material so hard.
And Mortensen, again, like, he doesn't
have much screen time, but God,
again, we talked about, like, Margot
Kidder in Black Christmas, like, when
she's on screen, you can't look away.
When Viggo Mortensen is on
screen, you're not looking at your
phone, you're not checking email,
you are fucking glued to Viggo
Jeremy: it's so funny, because Christopher
Walken, every line, he gives it a little
extra juice, he goes a little hard on it.
Viggo Mortensen whispers
everything he says.
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: like, the only line that
he says loud is like, I love
you, I love you more than Jesus.
Like he's desperately trying
to get him to come with him.
Emily: But he's not even,
he's like hissing that, he's
like hissing it, like that's
Jeremy: he like shrieks almost, like,
Emily: well he makes like a crazy
noise, like he's making weird
noises and then he's like, he's, you
don't really hear him without the
subtitles, but he's like a, it's like
an animal sound that he's making.
But it's not like a scream.
It's like, you know, it's like,
Jeremy: Brody,
Emily: yeah.
And he never, like, the only time he
makes a loud noise is when he roars at
his little demon servant who's just there.
Like, who is he?
I don't know.
Who cares?
Jeremy: he's a demon.
Emily: He's his little demon friend.
Jeremy: Yeah yeah, I think like, not
great on the, the racial stuff, obviously.
On the, I would say on the feminism
side, other than like, kissing the little
girl, which is problematic Virginia
Madsen's character doesn't have to have
a love interest, that is a nice thing.
She also ultimately doesn't do much
in the movie, uh, other than be there.
Ben: yeah, that's the thing, like,
normally, I'd be like, oh, I like
how she wasn't the love interest, but
for this role, I'm like, well, if she
was the love interest, at least she
would have done something, probably.
Jeremy: Yeah, the, the thing that
bothers me, I think, the most about
this, and I mean, for whatever it's
worth, is that they say, they make
a point of saying that angels have
both male and female sex organs, but
they cast all the angels as male.
So, like all the angels
are played by male actors.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: and then they could have
easily, mean, uh, honestly, that
scene probably would have been less
creepy if Simon had been a, you know,
an actress instead of Eric Stoltz.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I mean, that
would have been cool.
And I think that that's something that
definitely was well addressed in movies
like Constantine and in Sandman and stuff
like that, where we have, and in Good
Ben: talking We're gonna be talking so
much about the pure fucking gender goals
that is Tilda Swinton and Constantine.
Jeremy: I guess, like, the real problem
with the prophecy is we didn't have
Tilda Swinton yet, you know, just,
Emily: Yeah.
It would have been, we would
have been there if it was just,
if we just had figured out.
Ben: if you're looking for androgynous
angels, oh, just you wait, they're coming.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: back
Ben: I believe it's Gabriel!
I believe,
I believe Tilda, Tilda Swinton is
playing, yeah, it's Gabriel again!
Emily: Um, so good.
And yeah, so like, just real quick
with the Native American thing.
I just wanted to wrap that up
because Yazbat and it could have
been interesting if they went a
little bit more of an American
Godsbrout with it, which they didn't.
Yeah.
But I do think that they're, you
know, this is a stepping stone.
This movie gave us a lot of material that
we would build on with, like, Good Omens.
Jeremy: The movie has a lot of things
in it that could have been great
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: up being sort of mediocre.
Emily: there's, there's a lot of
genetic material that it shares with
the Neil Gaiman stuff that has now
been updated and developed a lot
more with time, you know, and I think
this is definitely a movie that,
Ben: is trying to be Neil Gaiman
before it has the benefit of Sandman
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, it's, it's
definitely, like, in that Neil Gaiman
range, but they still haven't figured
out how to, like, break out of the
Jeremy: I mean, frankly, yeah, frankly,
it's Neil Gaiman by way of Highlander,
like, it's, it still has that weird
80s sci fi gunk on it, um, it's, yeah,
it's, it's just not quite there and
I mean, and to that end, there's not
really any interesting discussion of
mental health or mental illness or
anything in this, like, the, the, um,
You know, the bad guy is just evil.
Like, it doesn't, it's very
on this good and evil kick.
That's the only explanation for
anybody being who they are, is
they're either good or evil.
Emily: Well, I do want to talk about
Jerry, because he is very much, it is
basically text that he is trying to end
his own life, or he's dying by suicide,
Ben: Oh, yeah.
Emily: And the fact that they put Jerry
kind of on the same level of sympathy
as Rachel, I think is honestly a little
bit less judgmental than it really could
have been in terms of, you know, like,
Jeremy: They make Jerry
a little more comedic.
Rachel is really pathetic, but
like, Rachel is still fresh off of
being revived from terminal cancer.
And that's like,
Emily: yeah, well, she also, she, it
seems like she had, she was almost in
the light, you know, she was sitting
at the little cafe talking about
the light and how bright it was.
And Jerry wasn't quite there yet.
Jerry was, um, just waiting and then
Gabriel showed up at the last moment
and just kind of animated Jerry's
corpse a little bit longer, where
as Rachel was had her fingertips
on salvation and was torn away.
By Gabriel one of the reasons
why she's like, so upset.
But yeah , it doesn't really
say much more than that.
And some of the future prophecy
movies will also pick up on a little
bit of that when, with the way that
Gabriel solicits these, well, he
doesn't really solicit, he recruits.
He enslaves the souls of the dying.
anD it is part of how
just monstrous he is.
Jeremy: Yeah, they, I think it's
interesting the amount of like, mythology
stuff that's in Gabriel's like, power
set, and that like, they also, they
also talk about in the Bible, I think
Gabriel being so, so bright, so
startling, so like, I guess, you know,
to some extent, terrifying in that,
you know, he can cause people to pass
out, to fall away that sort of thing.
And that's like something they turn
into like a power in the shows or in
the movie is, you know, he just people
knocks them over, knocks them out.
And, you know, we, we get the little
bit with the trumpet, we get the and
knowing people's names and things
like that, but they, really make
him a supervillain in this movie.
Emily: yeah, I mean, he also has
Ben: he has the
swagger.
He's got that swagger and
charm of a supervillain.
Emily: And he's also, the way that he,
like, attracts the children, you know, I
think that they're supposed to be, like,
it is, this is a part of that lore that
is I think also referenced in the film
Michael with John Travolta, that women
and children sort of are easy, like,
and men as well, but, like, there's a
charisma that comes with, and a purity,
essentially as soulless as it is.
Jeremy: There is a point in this movie
also where somebody has to explain to
somebody else who Gabriel is, and I
was like, he's like, big three angels.
Like, if you know any angels,
Emily: Big four.
Jeremy: I mean, I would say him, Lucifer,
and Michael are the ones that people know.
Emily: Oh, well, there's also
like the four cardinal directions
the four angels of the four
cardinal directions, which also
Jeremy: Yeah, it's like, Uriel, and
Emily: Uriel, Michael,
Gabriel, and Raphael
Jeremy: Yeah, so yeah, like
Raphael and Uriel, I think,
are slightly less well known.
They don't get name checked in the
Bible the way that the other three do.
At least
Emily: other angels have a
well, Michael has Michelangelo,
Ben: Got Michael, Gabriel,
Emily: Raphael has
Ben: Azazeluz Are we
counting Lucifer in that?
Is Lucifer counting as an
Jeremy: I mean,
Emily: I mean, he counts as an angel,
but he's a different situation than like
the four cardinal angels, and I can go
into that, but I'm not going to, uh,
Jeremy: Everybody knows Clarence.
Ben: want a Wolverine ghostwriter
amalgam named Beelzebub.
Emily: I mean, I'm
Ben: And I know I've made that
joke before, but I still want it.
Jeremy: I mean, that's,
Emily: just got it.
Jeremy: uh,
Ben: Take a second, take a
Jeremy: that's Nightcrawler
and Wolverine's kid.
That's Beelzebub.
Emily: Hey, feels above.
All right.
So
Ben: Is this movie feminist?
Emily: not really,
Jeremy: not actively not feminist,
Ben: not misogynist.
Emily: it's not misogynist.
Mary does.
Shoot, Gabriel.
Ben: Okay, fucking Colonel Mary just
fucking, fucking six in the, like,
two in the dime ring on Gabriel.
Ah, Colonel Mary, best
character in the movie.
Jeremy: yeah class stuff is interesting.
There's kind of some stuff on
class, mostly just sort of American
dystopian class that like this.
Chimney Rock that they're at here is
like it used to be a whole bunch of
people live there They everybody worked
at the copper mine closed down everybody
Left except for the people who couldn't
afford to leave and that's like why?
She teaches a whole school full
of children at the same time
Emily: Yeah, all the grades.
Jeremy: that's just who's left
Emily: Yeah.
And, it's a very diverse set of students.
She's also like the other thing, she's
doing in the very beginning is teaching
biblical hymns to Native American kids,
Ben: Yeah, that would, that
gave me pause, that's, mm hmm.
Emily: That's a whole, I mean, I think
that they were trying to do it for just
kind of set the scene in the movie,
because it's school and all that kind of
stuff, but that's, I mean, like, that does
Jeremy: singing at the
funeral for this evil, dude
Ben: Was it the same, I thought those were
se I thought those were separate things
that were happening at the same time.
Emily: yeah, I
Jeremy: were both happening in the church.
I don't know They're directly
related because he asks later if she
went to his funeral and he's like
everybody everybody went there's
you know, this is a small town
Emily: but he hated children,
like, he hated children,
Jeremy: He wasn't actively
interacting with the children.
Emily: that's true, he was dead,
and they may have been doing that to
spite him, good for them, uh, just,
Jeremy: so yeah, I don't know.
Absolutely other than
Lucifer's general vibe.
There's nothing even hinted
at LGBTQIA in this movie.
In fact, the stuff that is like
adjacent is the like intersects stuff
with the angels and they do a terrible
Emily: oh, that's bad, that's bad,
the whole like, oh, you can be
impotent and frigid at the same time.
they also use the H slur.
So watch out for that.
Ben: Yeah, that was,
Jeremy: real Andrew Dice Clay
level humor on that bit, like,
Emily: yeah.
Ben: It really is, the humor isn't
anything more advanced than like,
Jeremy: time.
Oh!
Ben: Intersex
Emily: they straight up do like an, uh,
Ben: they're different than you!
Isn't that weird?
Jeremy: that's all they got.
Yeah.
Emily: the, well, way that the angels were
very sensual with each other was notable.
I don't know if it's saying anything,
but I do think it's notable the way
that every time an angel interacted
with another angel, there were
like hugging and kissing a lot.
Like, there was a lot of, yeah.
Jeremy: football tackling
each other through a window.
Emily: That's true.
But then,
Ben: That's a kind of hug.
Emily: like, I think that every time
an angel, like, finished off another
angel, so to speak, or, um, every time
an angel, like, there was always some
kind of
Ben: Are we
Jeremy: Who gets their
wings from that one?
Ben: Nobody, because this movie
still doesn't have the budget for it.
Emily: Falling star.
Yeah.
So the angels are very
sensual with each other.
Ben: Finishing off the angel,
that's what Jerry's for!
Emily: I, no the angels, an angel has
to finish off an angel, that seems to
be, or you have to cut their heart out,
but maybe that's just like a euphemism,
Jeremy: The Sheriff of
Nottingham could have done it.
Ben: No, I mean, it seemed pretty
literally that you have to literally
cut out the heart to kill them.
It
seems like the
Jeremy: Lucifer, fucking eat
it in front of him afterwards.
Ben: I don't think that was necessary,
I think he just wanted He was just A,
hungry, and B, wanted to freak him the
Jeremy: Lucifer, Lucifer
noted for being extra.
Just historically,
Ben: the
Jeremy: of his thing.
Ben: are I think the rules are, and
the movie seems a little inconsistent
about it, is that, like, they have
some powers, but not all powers.
They're mortal when they're
on earth, but they can only be
killed by cutting out the heart
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: whole plot hangs on
Gabriel not just murdering people.
Like, he can just straight up
murder everybody who's plot relevant
in this movie at various points.
He shows that he is able
and willing to do so.
Doesn't,
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: you know, cause early on in the
movie, he bumps into everybody, he knows
who Thomas is, he knows that Thomas is
involved in all of this, he could just
snap his neck and go on about his life,
ultimately, like, we're not given a reason
why he doesn't, it's just, you know,
cause the plot demands that he doesn't.
Emily: that'd be, you
know, that'd be boring.
Jeremy: Yeah, he can set he can set dead
bodies on fire by snapping and putting
his finger to his lips or whatever,
so, yeah, ultimately, plot wise, that's
not great, but, like, I don't know, the
power stuff is pretty inconsistent here I
guess, I guess that's the one thing that
he knows is we'll never understand why.
Emily: well,
Jeremy: happens.
Emily: that is the nice little catch 22
that we have is that, you know, we're
not supposed to understand so we don't
have to tell a story that's coherent,
which, you know, we do, though, um,
Jeremy: with that in mind,
do we recommend this film?
Should people watch this film?
Emily: I, I do to certain people, of
course, and, you know, again, I would, I
would definitely lay out the, like, it's
not good with these things, but especially
if someone is friends with me and they're
like, Angels and Demons, and Christopher
Walken, and I'm like, boy have I got
something for you, and, Viggo Mortensen,
Ben: Like I
Jeremy: just fast forwarded through
the first half hour of this movie,
it would be significantly better.
Cause like, we talked about pacing.
Boy, this movie starts off with a
monologue that won't be redressed
until an hour into the movie.
And then it starts out with a flashback
Emily: yeah.
Ben: The end the end capture
is fucking nonsense, too.
Emily: You know what this would have been,
is a really good episode of the X Files.
Jeremy: or evil.
Emily: or evil, just replace Doggett with
and Catherine with Mulder and Scully,
and, you know, you don't necessarily,
I mean, the X Files did some Native
American appropriation in a big way.
Ben: Fucking Daggett's last narration
is essentially like, we're humans
because we have souls, and we
have souls because we're human.
This is very deep.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: If you could just cut
most of the humans out of this
movie, it would be much better.
Ben: it you were saying that this is
like a Transformers or Godzilla movie.
Jeremy: Yeah, it's,
Emily: I know.
Jeremy: there's like,
Ben: I
Jeremy: enjoyed this movie.
I do not think it's a good movie.
I think there are a couple of really
good performances and, like, on several,
like, technical levels, it's not a good
movie including, like, like we were
saying they were clearly low on budget
toward the end of this, like, the film
quality is pretty rough, there's some,
some rough cuts, there's at least one
helicopter shot where the camera's doing
this as it's going around the bluff toward
the end, and it was just like, you guys
just, putting this thing together with,
with glue and tape at the end, like, I
Ben: This is I would not recommend this
movie, but I do deeply love this film, so
if you've gone through this whole episode
and you think this trash is, like, your
treasure, you're gonna have a great time.
To everyone else, it's trash!
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: I, would say there are,
Ben: it's some very sparkly
trash at times, but,
Jeremy: has some like, clip
compilations of Christopher
Walken and Viggo Mortensen in
Ben: There you
Jeremy: it's almost better to
just go ahead and do that, not
waste that first half hour,
Emily: that is what I would recommend.
Jeremy: like, they're there.
That should not be missed.
They are incredible in this movie.
The movie itself, I can take relief.
Yeah,
Emily: you go to a Taco Bell doesn't
mean you can't just order a Baja Blast.
Like, Christopher Walken is the
Baja Blast of this movie and Viggo
Mortensen is the Baja Blast freeze.
I, uh, thank you for
coming to my TED Talk.
So, recommendations?
Ben: I Would recommend a movie that
we're going to be covering pretty
soon, and that would be Constantine.
Emily: Jeremy?
Jeremy: Konstantin is
similar in a lot of ways.
So I'm going to recommend something that
isn't entirely related, but, uh, when
I was watching this movie, They started
talking about the Kabbalah for a second,
and I was like, hey, two Kabbalahs in,
in, like, 24 hours of watching movies,
uh, because I watched the, new horror film
Attachment, Attachment is on, uh, Shudder
right now, so, I, I watched it there.
Ben: this movie something.
They do mention the Kohanim and
the Levites, and I'm like, damn.
Never thought I'd see those concepts
even mentioned in one of these movies.
So, that's something.
Jeremy: Attachment I just watched earlier
this week, It's one of the like better
reviewed horror movies of the last year.
It's on Shudder right now.
It is it is about two women who meet up,
one is a, like a failed Dutch actress
who runs into this girl who's like
a, she's a English Jewish grad student
who is, you know, in was in the country
studying stuff and they start a really
like cute relationship that the two
leads in this have like incredible
chemistry, they're very cute together
and like, I was like first 15 minutes
of this I was like, I'm incredibly
invested in these two and I know that's
horrible because it's a horror movie and
some, some bad shit's about to happen.
Emily: And it
Jeremy: But like the, Jewish girl has a
seizure and ends up breaking her leg in
the process and they have to like, she
decides to move back with her to Britain
to to the Jewish girl's mother's house.
And there is clearly
something going on there.
She's in this very, like, very
intense religious community, even
though, like, , the girl that she's
dating is clearly not as religious.
But there's, like, stuff going on.
The floorboards are creaking at
night and there's a candle that keeps
getting mysteriously lit and relit.
And you know, the, the mother is
up to something and it's unclear
what it is for most of the movie,
but like, it's sort of like, it has
a lot to do with Jewish mysticism.
Like I said, the Kabbalah comes up and
of course the lead who is who is Dutch,
I think, is like, Oh, like, like Madonna.
And of course the rabbi who she's
talking to is like, no, not like Madonna,
like the Kabbalah, like seriously.
So like, it's.
It's really interesting.
It's really well done.
It's not particularly scary, but it is,
you know, it uses a lot of the sort of
horror trappings and it has some really
intense scenes, but it's it's really
interesting and really, really good.
Highly recommended.
I've watched a lot of Intentionally, I
watched a lot of trash horrors movies
to start off this scary movie month but
uh, I I hit this one in the last week
and I I watched this one and night
I watched another Really good one.
It's like back to back.
It's like, oh good.
Finally I've gotten away from the
friday the 13th movies because that's
how I started out the month is I
Emily: Oh my god, me too.
Oh my god, but that one's been on my list.
It's good to know that it's cool because
I've been thinking about it and I keep
thinking like, oh, this is, this looks
like it's sad, you know, I assume it is,
but, uh, I'm still, I'm still into it.
Um,
Jeremy: definitely not
Emily: Pappy?
Jeremy: All yeah, it's
not, it's not all smiles.
But it is I definitely say it's
worth watching and it is like
quality queer representation.
The other one I just watched, which
I'm sure we'll talk about at some point
is Medusa which is also on Shudder.
It's a Brazilian film and is
incredible, but does have some hate
cramming in it, so watch out for that.
It is about a group of hyper Christian
girls living in, in Brazil who
decide to put on masks and form a
gang where they go around and beat
up women for being homewreckers
and shit like that at night, so.
It is deeply horrifying,
Ben: Oh, that's um, hmm,
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: Yeah, it is,
Emily: rough.
Ben: that
Jeremy: is a horror movie in a way that
almost only documentaries are horrifying.
Um, yeah, it's a lot of like, super
right wing, like, but oh, I can
actually kind of see this happening.
Is Brazil really this bad too?
Because like, I can see, I can
see this happening in America.
Also, like, I do know.
You know, there's a lot of that in Brazil,
but I think it really parallels a lot of
the stuff that's been going on post the
last election with Brazil as well in an
interesting and prophetic kind of way.
Is
Emily: Yeah, well, if you want
something that is also about
angels and demons, sort of.
And I say sort of because,
Jeremy: this the movie Angels and
Demons from the Da Vinci Code series?
Emily: no, this is a movie from
the 70s called The Visitor.
This movie is bananas so if you watch
your good movies and you need like some
weird dumb movie to kind of cleanse
the palate that's like mostly vibes
and weird ass imagery, The Visitor.
Is that also it frames the character
who represents God in this scenario,
with this like shaft like theme
song and it's incredible and
also the devil is a little girl.
, so, yeah, and it's very,
like, Italian horror.
Um, so check that one out.
It's from the 70s called the
visitor has Lance Hendrickson in it.
Jeremy: I was gonna say, is this
the one with Lance Hendrickson,
Glenn Ford, and John Huston?
Emily: yes, yes.
Jeremy: What a cast.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's bananas,
Jeremy: Peckinpah, Jesus.
Emily: huh?
Jeremy: Winters?
Emily: So, um,
Jeremy: too.
Good lord.
Emily: yeah, it's got angels,
sort of, it's got birds, it's got,
Jeremy: It's got birds.
Emily: it's got scary little girls yeah,
Ben: Hitchcock pitching his newest movie.
Emily: it's got bi it's got birds.
Ben: I will also recommend one more thing,
and that's the credits song at the end
of this movie, which is so fucking 90s.
Uh, it is Breakin Down by Skid Row.
I don't know if y'all stayed for the
credits, but this was a song that
could only have been made in 1995.
Emily: Oh yeah, I was surprised
it wasn't, like, live.
Ben: Right?
Or fucking, uh, or fucking Everclear.
Emily: That would have been too
Jeremy: I watched Freddie vs Jason
this last week, and that credit song
is hardcore, like, nu metal bullshit.
Emily: Oh no, did
Jeremy: like, oh no.
Emily: I Haven't seen Freddy vs.
Jason.
I'm actually starting to get through.
The, uh, Friday the 13th movies.
I will say, if you watch Friday the
13th, and we'll probably talk about
it eventually, Friday the 13th,
the final chapter, number 4, is a
film, like, it's actually a film
with characters that I care about,
Jeremy: With Corey,
Emily: With Corey Feldman,
Ben: we could probably do a whole
versus month, of like Freddy vs.
Jason, Alien vs.
Predator, Godzilla vs.
Kong.
Emily: do they have does Freddy vs.
Jason have, Oh shit, what's his name?
Ben: Freddy?
Yeah, they got Freddy.
Emily: I know I got
Jeremy: they got Jason too.
Emily: and then I got Jason, but
what's the actor that's in the
four oh no, Friday the 13th 4
that's in everything, and he is,
Ben: Paul Rudd?
Emily: know, um,
Ben: Paul Rudd was in Halloween, that's
Emily: Marty McFly's dad,
Ben: Oh!
John Glover.
Emily: no, um, Willard, he's in
American Gods, he's in the game
of those where I'll just use
Ben: Crispin Glover.
Emily: Crispin Glover.
Ben: I had the last name.
Jeremy: Oh, no?
I don't think so.
Emily: Crispin Glover.
Ben: it I'm looking it up.
It is Crispin Glover.
I can say that with 100
Jeremy: yeah, Freddie vs, Freddie
vs Jason has Jason Ritter in it.
Emily: Huh.
Jeremy: yeah, it's it is a, a film.
It is, like, conceptually
the beginning of this movie.
I was like, yeah, okay.
And then the further I got into it, I
was like, nope, nope, you missed it.
Emily: Are you talking about Freddy vs.
Jason?
Ben: The pro Oh.
Emily: Okay, not the prophecy.
Well, I mean the prophecy too, but
Jeremy: yeah, uh, yeah.
The Prophecy 2, but, uh, yes,
I have watched all of the
Freddy the 13th films now.
I will say this, 4, 6, and 10.
I, 5, probably the worst of the series.
But 6 is like the bat shittiest
one, 7 is weird, 7 is like they
decided they were gonna do Jason vs.
Carrie, but they couldn't
get the rights to Carrie.
And then 8, I've just
recently watched 8, 9, and 10.
8 is Takes Manhattan, it's bad, it's
also very long, it's like 8 hours long.
9 Is Goes to Hell, again, like Takes
Manhattan, not what it says on the tin.
And then 10 is what it says on the
tin, because 10 is Jason in space.
Um,
Ben: I wanna watch Jason X so fucking
Jeremy: X.
Ben: One day we will cover Jason
Jeremy: but it knows what it is.
Ben: One day we will cover it,
and it will be a glorious day.
And I will probably be
drinking during that show.
Jeremy: Oh
Emily: One, one final recommendation
if you want to see a movie that
is absolutely idiotic, dumb, but
is carried by one performance.
It also has hell about it.
I just watched Hellraiser
Bloodline, in its entirety for
the first time, I think, ever.
Doug Bradley.
Jeremy: to ever watch the whole thing.
Emily: Yeah, well, I guess, I mean, the
first time I've seen the whole thing.
I've seen bits and pieces of it,
like, on Cinemax back in the day.
But it's better than hell on
earth, let me tell you what.
Um, but yeah, Doug Bradley is
bless, bless this angel baby heart.
Such a good actor.
Everything about that movie is such shit.
Except the idea of the fucking space part.
The space part, if they only did like,
if they only combined it with Event
Horizon and like got a good special
effects team, they could've done it.
It could've happened.
Jeremy: I mean, we should say, uh, do
you guys want to do the whole, uh, outro?
Letting people know where
they can find your stuff?
Or,
Emily: Mega moth.net.
Mega moth, Instagram, mega moth
on Patreon, Twitter and blue sky.
That's me.
Ben: Yeah, you can find me, uh,
website, Blue Sky, Instagram,
all at BenKahn Comics.
You can pick up El Campbell wins their
weekend out in bookstores now, and, uh,
when is this episode gonna be dropping?
Jeremy: this will be the
first episode of December.
Ben: Alright, then, uh, in just
couple weeks, uh, December 14th,
Captain Lazerhawk, a Blood Dragon
remix, the manga, comes out.
So, if you haven't, uh, seen it on
Netflix, make sure to catch up with
that, and then, uh, check out the manga
for more of Captain Lazerhawk's story.
Jeremy: Uh, yeah, as for me I am at
Jro five eight on Twitter and Tumblr.
I am, or no, I'm at Jro five
eight on Twitter and Instagram.
Jeremy Whitley on Blue Sky and Tumblr.
I fixed my website, so
it's jeremy whitley.com.
It actually is like usable and stuff now.
So go, go look at it, use
it something, order a book.
Not from me, but I have links.
Emily: Christmas is coming up.
Jeremy: yeah.
Christmas is coming up.
Speaking of which, School
for Extraterrestrial
Girls book two is out now.
Me and Jamie Noguchi.
Uh, if you love us,
you'll, you'll go buy it.
Gonna put that on you.
Yeah, uh, and as for the, as for
the podcast, you can follow us here.
You can follow us on Patreon.
You can check out our
website at Transistor.
fm slash Progressively Horrified.
And, uh, yeah, you can rate
and review us wherever you're
listening to this right now.
We'd really appreciate it.
It helps more people find the show cause
it gets recommended to them and all that.
Thank you as always to Emily and Ben
for joining me here tonight to talk
about these good, good, bad, bad angels.
Emily: Happy to be here.
I'm always happy to talk
about these good, bad angels.
Jeremy: Yeah, and uh, you know,
we've got one Satan down for our
uh, holiday Satan spectacular here.
So Mortensen, thumbs up.
Great, great Satan.
Next week we'll be talking about
the Witches of Eastwick and Jack
Nicholson's Satan, so be ready for that.
If anybody knows how to
choose scenery, it's that man.
Emily: Oh my God,
Ben: Jack Nicholson devil!
Emily: yes.
So good.
Jeremy: All right, well we will
see you next week, and until then.
Stay horrified.