Mikkipedia is an exploration in all things health, well being, fitness, food and nutrition. I sit down with scientists, doctors, professors, practitioners and people who have a wealth of experience and have a conversation that takes a deep dive into their area of expertise. I love translating science into a language that people understand, so while some of the conversations will be pretty in-depth, you will come away with some practical tips that can be instigated into your everyday life. I hope you enjoy the show!
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia, where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness and wellbeing and I'm delighted that you're here.
Hey everyone, Mikki here, you're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking again to Michelle Matangi about getting back to basics when it comes to self care, and why Michelle recently had to employ these herself through a difficult time in her life, and where she's at with her journey. So Michelle originally came onto the podcast almost 100 episodes ago, episode number 74,
And if you haven't listened to that podcast and you don't know Michelle's story, then I really recommend that at some point you give that a listen because Michelle is so open about the two decades that she has spent redefining her attitude, her mind and her body using some of the things that we talk about today. And so Michelle is back on the podcast today to sort of just update us on where she is at.
This week we talk about strategies to help move beyond some common mind blocks when it comes to dieting and how understanding the nervous system response was a game changer for Michelle and being able to get back to doing the things that make her feel good. And I think one of the great things about Michelle, I mean, there are so many great things, but she's so transparent about where she is at. And despite the couple of decades that she has quite publicly
worked on her mind, her body, transforming herself, there are still hiccups along the way. And she's so transparent about that. And I think that is so valuable for all of us to appreciate that it isn't sort of, you know, there is no real end to this, if you like, but that shouldn't be a bad thing. Like it's just a constant work on, but it doesn't have to feel hard. And these are some of the tools that Michelle
users with her clients to help them get on top of their own health journey. And with that in mind, Michelle also talks about her upcoming new course Around Mindset and helping people put these strategies into practice. So there is a ton that we talk about in this episode and I think you're really going to love it. So for those of you unfamiliar with Michelle, she is a health and life coach in Taranaki who has helped hundreds of people
redefine their relationship with food and themselves using strategies that she's perfected over two decades of understanding this for herself. Michelle works both one-on-one and in a group coach setting and you can find details about these through her website and I've popped her website address in the show notes and it's www.michellematangi.com and I've also popped a link to Michelle's Instagram handle.
where you can be the first to hear about the details of her new course, which is due to come out any day now. Before we crack on into this episode, I would just like to remind you that the best way to support the podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of the podcast out there and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts. So more people get the opportunity to learn from the guests that I have on the show, like Michelle.
So share amongst your friends, people. That would be amazing. For now though, enjoy the conversation that I have with Michelle Matangi.
Hey Michelle, nice to have you back. Thanks, Mikki. It's so good to be back. I seriously love coming on your podcast. Oh, I'm so pleased. So the genesis for this, I've been thinking about this for a while because I know that you've had brewing the idea for a course to help people with their mindset around food. And of course we connect every few months because you come on into my Mondays Matter and you do it like a...
brilliant session with my members. They're all about that mindset piece. And I just love the knowledge that you share. And I thought it would be quite a good opportunity to sort of transfer that from the Mondays Matter group out to a wider audience, to give them potentially a taste of what they might get if they are coming into a course like yours, which I would love to, I don't know how, I'm imagining you can share elements of it at this point.
Um, to then, um, sort of peak people's interest because this will come out at around the time that you're, you're launching your course. So, um, yeah, totally perfect. So Michelle, we've spoken before and people are, and I'll pop in the show notes, um, just a link to your, um, the previous podcast where I know we did a really nice sort of deep dive into your background. But for those people who
might just need a little reminder or might not have listened to that yet. Can you just give us a little bit of a background on you and sort of the cliff notes if you like? Yeah, I'll try and I'll give you the cliff notes as efficiently as I can. I tend to tangent so I will just try and pull it in. So I'm Michelle obviously, Michelle Matangi. I've been, gosh, I feel like I've been on this...
I hate using the word journey, like I really hate it, but it is actually what it is. So it really doesn't capture like what I've been going through, which is, I guess, seeking some kind of element to look after myself from a place of genuine love, as opposed to trying to just manipulate my external circumstances to look a certain way, if that makes sense. So I just want to feel good.
And I've been on this, I guess, the seat of that since probably 2000 and gosh, where are we? Maybe 2000 and, no, yeah, 2002 maybe. Long time, long time, 20 years at least. I mean, even probably earlier than that, but I top weight was 107 kilos, bottom weight 54. You know, so I've been through all of it.
successfully kept majority of it off, which is fantastic, and picked up some incredibly healthy habits, and transformed my mindset along the way, I guess you could say. Yeah. And that has come through a lot of peaks and troughs of learning the hard way of starting over again. And when I say starting over again, I kind of mean,
kicking off from where I was last time, you know? Like whenever I feel like the whole term people use for like falling off the wagon or feeling like they've tripped up and they've messed it all up. I kind of hate that term because it's like, well, you kind of haven't messed it all up. You've just learned a very important lesson that you probably didn't know before. And now you've got more to add to that. And that particularly for people like myself who have quite a...
I think a lack of dopamine in their brain, like naturally in their brain, and seeking that through food or through alcohol or through drugs or shopping or scrolling or whatever. You know, we're all seeking dopamine, but essentially there are some of us that have a lot like a lot less of it naturally, I think. Yeah. And yeah. And with that, Michelle, because I just want to pick up on a couple of things you've said. So first, I love what you're saying about, you know, you've, that people never truly sort of start over.
you know, because they're not, because you're always a different person, you're a different person every single time. And so the lessons you learn from a previous attempt at fat loss or body composition, recomposition or anything. And it's not even not even to do with like, like diet, but there's anything in life you're always starting from a different place, even if it feels like, oh, this all, you know, again, I'm here again. But, um, um, so I love that. My question, like you mentioned dopamine and I'm.
I told you actually that I was almost finished that dopamine nation book, which you recommended and I just love it. Your knowledge of your dopamine levels, is this your understanding based on that knowledge? Have you done testing? Like what do you- That would be, yeah, it would be, and I haven't done like extensive testing. Yeah. I've certainly spoken to my fair share of professionals, health professionals.
And I have done extensive research and obviously, you know, I know, I know me. I think we are the experts on our own body. And that's, I think I'm not, I'm going to sit here and diagnose myself with ADHD or anything. Like that's kind of, I think that's really dangerous. I think a lot of people are kind of going down that road because I think there's so much more out about it. But I think I am on the cusp. Do you know? I think there's a touch of it. And
that has its real advantages because it means I can hyper-focus, I can do those things. And so I do know that there's that part of my brain that does lack the dopamine. And the way that you kind of know this normally is with dopamine drugs, so to speak, if you give dopamine drugs to someone who doesn't have a lack of dopamine in them, they will be as high as a kite. Yeah, interesting. And if you give those to someone who has like
flat lines, got like no dopamine, it will just make them feel normal. So you can kind of see how like a cat, like, like, I'm just giving the observation that for some people, like it can be really hard to get tested. And like it's really hard to be in New Zealand. And actually it's more, and that's a, um, um, that's really useful to know, because as I, as I'm imagining it, there are signs and symptoms just qualitatively that you can sort of use to, to.
to understand where you might sit on that spectrum. So Michelle, so what were some of your signs and symptoms that you were like, you know what, I really resonate with this stuff that I'm learning, and I think this is gonna be really useful for me. So definitely the part of my, I believe my development, and if you listen to my earlier podcast, you would probably understand the connection there, but the developmental part of your brain can go amiss.
if you have trauma at a young age, you know, especially up to the age of 18, in particular, but that zero to five in particular is really, really crucial. And if that doesn't develop the way that it needs to develop, then your prefrontal cortex is kind of missing. There's a part of it missing. And at the same time, well, they call it the prefrontal cortex or the neocortex, whatever, it's the body part of the brain. It's a part that
can make change, if that makes sense. So making behavior change is very difficult for someone who has a missing piece of that development. And so what it means is that you've got really terrible impulse control. And you make decisions that you kind of don't think about. You're not thinking about tomorrow, Michelle, you're thinking about how I want to feel right now, which is the real, that kind of...
part of us that just wants what it wants now, regardless of what could potentially happen to us. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, not everyone's like that. There are plenty of people that are very, very disciplined and structured and routine and can just stick to things. And, you know, again, it can come down to sexes as well. Like men are very solutions-focused, a woman a lot more emotional. There's a lot of things that come down to it. But, you know, it's...
For instance, I don't want to get up and exercise, but I know as soon as I do, I feel fantastic. And I know that that's true, but there's still this part of me that's just like, oh, nah, don't worry about it. You don't need to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas I'm the opposite, you know, like it's so, and part of it is, I think, ingrained in me, but then also it's, but there is probably that...
other that more sort of, I don't know, maybe there's that neurochemical basis as well. You know, maybe that's a difference between you and I in terms of some areas. But I always, you know, part of me feels like I'm constantly fighting my lazy gene. Like I get up and I fight my lazy gene every single minute of the day to not be lazy. Yeah. Oh, me too. Me too. Yeah. I feel like there's this, there's this, yeah, like it's a, like you said, a lazy gene. It does feel a bit like that. But you know, we are, we're like animals.
We are actually lazy by nature and we need to be because we are really here to kind of preserve ourselves, preserve our energy because we might need to chase for food. We don't need to do that now, but we still have the same mechanisms going on. Nothing's changed in that way. Apart from the fact that you can order pizza and you can order anything on your door within like 10 minutes. Yeah, so true, so true. So hence the whole dopamine system gets completely hijacked.
Yeah. And you know, all these hedonistic foods that are now available to us just override that. And it's just, yeah, it's, and so I have fallen under that spell, I guess, like I've fallen under that in my whole life. And I've kind of come up for air at times to be like, hold on, this isn't, this doesn't feel too good. This isn't serving me what's going on here. And investigate it further as to how can I actually change this? Yeah. And I think you were, as we were talking about on
when you do go under again for want of a better term, you know, and I think some people might look at you and think that you've got it all dialed in and, you know, because you talk about this stuff all the time and you've, and you share your journey, you know, and you have for many years. And I think if anything, people, I guess, will probably be reassured that even the experts can, you know, like are on this, like it's not about...
like, I've nailed this now and I can get on with life. Like this is life actually. Yeah, and you can't out-human yourself. No. We're human at the end of the day, and we've got to have that bit of kindness to ourselves. See, kindness is a funny thing, because people can think, oh, kindness can also mean that you're just like letting yourself off the hook all the time.
That's not necessarily true. It's just that you've got to give yourself some compassion for sometimes the things that you've gone through that you haven't really been able to cope with. Your nervous system hasn't been able to cope with. So I work a lot around nervous system and understanding the nervous system. As soon as I actually got that piece, it was like game changer, light bulb moment, understood why it is that I essentially...
struggle with what I do and why other people struggle with what they do. Because I'm not the only person that deals with this. I just share it. Yes, no, totally. And which is what makes your, you know, the fact that you, you know, do one-on-one coaching and you've got group coaching courses. And then, of course, you've got this new one launching really soon as well to sort of help people that are in that similar space and just need a bit of a...
I guess they just need that foundation and that grounding. So if I say simple stuff, it's not simple in that everyone should know it. How do you not know this? But it's just the sort of the little things that trip people up and some sort of simple solutions that they can sort of work towards, I don't know, like staying on track, I suppose. Yeah, I think people just really need a lifeline. They just need something to feel like there's someone else out there who gets, one gets them.
and two has some simple tools that they can help implement regularly, and learning to show up regularly. Because we don't necessarily need to do things for a long time, but we need to do things regularly. In terms of you don't necessarily need to have mastered it for years on end, but if you can show up every single day, you will eventually become the master at it, but you could still fall back into place because
We do have these neural pathways in our brain that are so deeply carved. It's like crevices on a mountain, you know, the water goes down them, the way it's always gone and it's cause it's the best path for it to go down and the brain is like, okay, well, this is the way we're going to go down it. And it doesn't want to change that. And so trying to change something is extraordinarily hard when
It's got a pathway that's already carved out going, no, no, we go this way and we know this way and it's safe this way, even if it's not what you truly want. In your heart of hearts, it's not what you truly want, but it doesn't take energy, right? And so to change these behaviors takes so much energy and so much thinking about...
Like you said, every day getting up and fighting that part of yourself that just wants to lay in bed and scroll on your phone and take those sort of easy routes, which feel easy at the time, which are actually not easy in the long term, but feel it in the short term. So yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. Like I was chatting to a friend about this the other day and we were, and because you often hear that, you know, what's harder, getting up and going to the gym or continuing to...
feel like you're a failure and you're lazy and you're unfit and you can't change it. And then you can't change all the stuff that you want to change. And he was sort of saying to me, you know what, even though the meme is generally, oh, it's so much harder to feel rubbish and feel like crap. It's actually not because that's what you know. That actually is easy. It's easy to feel that way. It's actually much easier to continue to feel crap is that if that's all that you know.
rather than to get up and go to the gym. And I really liked the way that he reframed it because it actually, it just made a lot of sense to me because it explains a lot of where people can, can come unstuck despite their best intentions. A hundred percent. And there's, there's so many, I mean, the one thing I always think about the gym is the heaviest way you'll ever lift at the gym is a front door. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Cause once you're there, you're like, I'm good.
Or once you've been like for you, once that five minutes has gone, you're good. Like once you get into it, you're fine. But it's that first part of, of really tackling that in a voice of yours is just going, Oh no, don't worry about it. Let yourself have a day off, let yourself, you know, whatever. So there's, there's sort of that part. And then there's coupled with, I guess, like I just talked about understanding your nervous system and how that can totally become immobilized and.
We're like, and this is the reason I share this is because for myself, like I like two years ago, I was, I would say in the best place in my life, like best shape, best place in my life, I thought I was like, unstoppable, felt fantastic. You know, want to shout it from the rooftops. Amazing. Then comes COVID, right, which I think everyone through everyone. And then then comes
my mum's terminal cancer diagnosis of my dad dying, which we talked about the last one, which I'm not going to go over, but that threw my nervous system into such disarray. It's not until I've backtracked the steps of the actual trauma of observing my father dying, which I know this can sound quite morbid, but that can really affect your nervous system. And because my nervous system has been so hijacked over my childhood, it just took me straight back there.
And so that triggered me into like what they call a state of immobilization in your nervous system, which is kind of like shut down. It's kind of like your body just goes, we can't function. It doesn't matter what your intentions are and how much you try and push through. You actually just almost like you can't lie, almost like you got a disability, like, oh, you're almost like you're in a wheelchair and you can't get up. Like that's actually how it feels. Like you've just gone. The nervous system is the hub of your.
whole brain operation basically. It's like saying like how are we going to continue on in this life? Yeah and that sounds dramatic but that's essentially what can happen. And so for you then Michelle, what got you out of it? Was it time? Yeah time, compassion, understanding, healing,
Yeah, I guess going at the not giving myself a timeline, because I think in the past, I've always been like, right, you've got to do this by this time, or you've got to be back up and you're a coach and you've got to show you, kind of get that together and rah rah rah. And it was like, hold on a minute, I'm a human that's gone through something extremely difficult, multiple things. There's other things that have been happening as well, but I'm not going to go into all of those. But yeah, a lot of things. And it's like...
I had to really give myself the permission to be a human and go, right, allow yourself some time. And then I guess, yeah, like you said, there was just a point at which I think over time I learned that because my nervous system had become immobilized that I needed to mobilize it again. So I kind of didn't know what had happened. So for some people, their nervous systems can go into overdrive, which is the opposite of immobilization. And those people need to slow down, right? They're the ones that need to meditate and they need to like take it.
chill pill and just, you know, let themselves do nothing for a while. Like though, you know, because their nervous system is like highly jacked up. And it's like, it's essentially you're rushing woman syndrome, you know, as you, yeah, women with kids and a job and doing everything, burning candle at both ends, never having enough sleep, all of those sorts of things. Mine was the opposite. So it's like, it goes into shutdown and there's no right or wrong. It's just your nervous system is going to do what it does best because it knows from what it did in the past from when you were a kid.
from how you operated from what you were observing as a child, essentially. And so I knew I needed to remobilize in small, short, safe increments, if that makes sense. So getting myself up and going and doing the things that felt easy and tangible for me, well not easy, but felt doable. So that was getting out and just getting myself out for nature walks again, getting myself out
get in the community again, go and see people, you know, things like that. Especially with COVID, I think COVID had such an impact on people and myself included. You know, we were all working from home, we weren't seeing people, that was like the new thing that we became. And I think a lot of people that meant, that's then how they started living, you know? And especially introverts who love to just be at home and not see people. But you know, we're here for connection. We are made to be
we're made for love and belonging and a sense of community. And as soon as you take that away from someone, they feel isolated and like a sense of hopelessness and all of those sorts of things can feel quite, quite tough, I guess. And bring on, you know, someone who's myself, which I've shared before struggle with mental illness, you know, that's just like a perfect storm. So extremely difficult. And then, you know, as I've said,
in the past, food has been that comfort, it's been that dopamine, it's been all sorts of things. And so you almost start using it without realizing you're even doing it. I could honestly sit here and tell you that I didn't even realize how much I was leaning on it as a kind of crutch without being, and that was part of just my nervous system being really immobilized without me having the conscious awareness that that was actually going on. I was kind of a little bit in denial.
Yeah, did Mike notice? Yeah, he did. But again, I think Mike's really quite incredible that he's very gentle and encouraging in the way that he helps me. He'll let me know like what he's observing. But at the same time, he knows that I'm not someone to be like, he, I don't like being told what to do. I don't think anyone likes being told what to do. But if he came and we're like, you're doing this and you're doing that and being, he knows how that's gonna
workout like it's going to push me in the opposite direction and get you push me further down. So, you know, it was like a gentle encouragement and he'd be like, let's go out for a walk. And then that would be like, Oh, I remember I really like this feeling, you know, like those sorts of things, you know, so it was kind of just those gentle encouragement. Oh, do you want to go and, you know, do a nice bath? Or do you want to go and like, go and come to the gym with me and do a workout and stuff like that, you know, and it was like, oh.
actually, yeah, I do. Okay, let's do that. So just very gentle encouragement. And that's what worked for me. And that like some people are going to be different and they kind of might prefer to have the more harder approach. But I know that the way I've always been very hard on myself, very like, you're not good enough. And all of the narrative that's always been quite self-deprecating. So adding more of that to someone who's already feeling in a bit of a hopeless
scenario is the worst thing. Totally. And I guess it's, and you know, there was no judgment. And I think that's something which a lot of people fear actually, if they're in a situation like you, is that they're such hard critics of themselves. Particularly someone I think like you, Michelle, who you're very, as I say, you're really transparent about a lot of this. And so you're, and I don't know how much of you felt already sort of judgment from
people you don't even know and probably nothing hopefully, but you know, like to then, you know, you've got your own judgment and you certainly don't need it sort of from other people close to you. And of course, you know, the people we love don't ever do it intentionally. So it's, you know, but it's just, it's interesting to know sort of, yeah. Cause you guys have been like together for a quarter of a century. So 24 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I know for myself, like when I'm working with clients, like, and I've talked about this the other day on the call.
on the evening, judgment just leads to like that feeling of more, feeling more stuck and contraction. So you're kind of going inward and you're feeling very, you know, it's the opposite of what you want to feel, which is curiosity, which to me is openness, expansiveness and possibility. So that's really what you want when you're feeling in a bit of a shame spiral, right? Like because anyone who's gone through anything like what I've just described
You do get yourself in a shame spiral. You're like, oh my God, look, I was doing so well and I shared all this with the world and now look at me, I've really gone down again, bit down and out. But the pattern is one of share it with my community the whole way through. I've always been very open about it. At times not wanted to because again, the judgment and you know that there's that element, but it's like at the end of the day, like I said, I'm human. I...
I actually have become a better coach through this because it's given me way more understanding of the part of me that I think was a little bit, I've got to figure it out now, like you said before, you think you've got to figure it out and then it's like, oh, actually, no. Here's another little lesson for you and here's another layer that you need to learn. So it's kind of, it really did bring me back to that.
true, true beginners mindset because I don't believe I'm a true beginner because I, like I said, I've just got so many years under my belt that I understand the stuff and I know how to apply it. But I can really empathize a lot more with my clients to get into their heads a bit more to understand where they're feeling so I can help shift it for them, you know, and help not even shift it for them, but help them to discover for themselves what might be holding them back because theirs might be completely different to mine.
But just having that understanding is so, I think so helpful. People just wanna be heard and understood. And like you said, not judged. Cause the judgment makes them feel worse. Yeah. And it's interesting. And I really like how you say, bring some curiosity to it because that then helps them reframe a little bit of, you know, from a sort of place of, okay, so if I'm gonna deal with this, I need to understand why I'm even feeling this way in the first place. And I think we almost,
miss or skip that step because it's a bit hard. You know, it feels hard because you're so, you're like, oh, I just, you know, you, you, you don't want to face it actually. Like you don't want to dig that little bit deeper because if you did, then you might've done it earlier. Whereas, you know, like I think people make a continual mistake, particularly in, you know, um, weight loss or body recomposition is that, that they'll sort of ignore their inner feelings and they'll
you know, all that diet didn't work because look at me, I'm here again. So I'm going to try this thing and I'm going to try this other thing. Whereas any plan is going to work if any good plan is going to work, I guess. But any plan is going to work if you have, if you understand sort of, I don't know where you're starting from, I guess. Yeah. And well, I mean, this is where like what I do with my clients comes in, because once their mindset is they understand the triggers, their patterns, their
basically why they have always been doing what they've been doing and like understanding where that comes from whose voice is that like What vocabulary are they using? Are they using their mom's? You know, like is it their mom's words that are coming into their mind when they're like, oh you're not good enough And you'll never achieve that or what do you know, or is it is it there? It's like and that's what I mean about curiosity like when you're to me behavior change is the catalyst to get curious about what is going on for you and it's actually like an invitation to
open yourself up and it's actually quite, that's why it's quite scary because people go into it and they're like, oh my God, I'm feeling all these emotions. I don't know what to do with them. Yeah. You know, and if you've never done any mindset work before, you actually have no idea. You just think it's the diet's fault or you just think it's or the program or whatever it is that you're following. And if you could just get that, like if you could just follow it, you'd be fine.
Yes, yeah, totally. Yeah, and it's all from great intentions, of course. Like I, you know, I remember being here myself, like if I could just find the right thing. And this is, I guess, why people often tend to go down the weight loss surgery route, because they're just so fed up with trying and trying and trying. And they feel like, well, if I can just get the weight off, then I can deal with my emotions. And interestingly enough, I've actually worked with a few clients who have had surgery after working with me, and they've actually gone in and they're
that they've gone and done the psych assessment and worked with the nutritionists and everything to actually put it in place. And they're saying to them, who have you been working with? Because you are not the norm. Because they've actually been dealing with the stuff that drives them to eat, or drives them to overconsume, or drives them to not exercise, or whatever it might be. Whatever behavior is leading you down the route to an unhealthy lifestyle, essentially.
So Michelle, so obviously bringing curiosity to some of those mental blocks is, you know, one of the first sort of recommendations or things that someone might need to think about. You also mentioned beginner's mindset and you said this on the call on Tuesday as well that although it wasn't beginner beginner, you found that, you know, that in the last, you know, six months or so you've had to go back to have a, you know, to go, is that, do you mean you had to sort of get back to basics? Like what, what does that sort of entail for you?
Yeah, so that entailed, like you said, getting back to basics, setting myself, like I set myself like a mandatory minimum, which is like, I do one for physical, one for nutritional and one for wellness. Nice. So physical, make sure I get a walk every day. You know, like make sure I get out every day, regardless of how long it's for, but I get out. So that's like the, you know, for my physical body, I need to do that.
Nutrition, make sure I get protein at breakfast. Like these can be really simple things because I know that's game-changing. If I eat protein for breakfast, if chances are I'm not gonna be eating crap later on, like that's just a game changer. Wellness, meaning make sure you get some sleep or meditate, something that's gonna help your mind be its best. So all of these to me, they're like little minimums that you can do. They don't need to be, you don't need to be doing, dialing everything in perfectly because again,
You do that and you overwhelm your system and you're like, nah, I'm not doing any of this because it's too hard, too much, too fast, too soon, all of those things. So it's really bringing it back to basics. And setting up, and I call them boundaries, boundaries for myself. Like, you know, I won't allow certain foods that I know I could.
easily binge on, it just won't really allow them in the house. Like it's a bit of a boundary. That's not necessarily saying I will never eat those again. It's just saying, well, I'm feeling the way I'm feeling. If I have a lot of those in the house, I will just demolish them. So I'll either buy it in a small amount and have a little bit, or I'll only eat it when I go out for dinner or something like that, you know, it's just making little, almost like little bargains with yourself. Like you can still have it, you know, you can still have it, but just don't have.
unlimited access in your own house, because to me, if you can have an obstacle in the way, it's making it a little bit harder to get to the thing that you want to get to. So that has the opposite effect. When you have a potential obstacle in the way, say, to get out to exercise, mine's always been if I have to get in the gym, that means I've got to get in the car.
get, you know, drive, get to, you know, it's a whole kind of obstacle course to navigate when I'm not feeling great. Whereas if I've got my clothes ready the night before, and I probably talked about this in the last one potentially, if I've got my clothes ready the night before, I'm up out of bed, I put my clothes straight on, and I get out the door. So that's like, to me, is making as least amount of obstacles and choices to get to where I need to get to when I feel things are hard.
Yeah, totally. And you know, that whole putting boundaries around the types of foods that are available in your house, that is just common sense to me. Oh, totally. And there's a lot of backlash against the idea that you can't enjoy bites or small amounts of this particular food if you really love it. No food is off limits. There's no such thing as a bad food. The reality is for some people, there actually are bad foods. And bad in that they trigger a type of behavior that leads you down a path that you don't want to go.
That's right. And you actually have to, I think people need to be a bit honest about that. Maybe it's understanding that, but honest about it, but also accepting of it. And it's okay. It's okay that if you know that if someone opens a bag of chips and you demolish the whole lot, it's not a failure on your part. It's just acknowledging as you say, you know what, this is a trigger food for me and I need to just...
you know, steer clear of that for now. Yeah, and so, and cause it's really hard because I have always come from these two camps. You know, my first original delve into weight loss was very strict, low carb keto, you know, and that got a huge amount of weight off, which was fantastic. And then the sort of more recent forays into trying to find some sort of more balance, because I tend to, Tetla and we talked about this on Tuesday, kind of got a little bit down that orthorexic route.
which was like, you know, hyper-focus, again, this is where the hyper-focus comes in, on too much, you know, getting too strict. But when I was, you know, had really started healing my relationship with food and trying to kind of welcome food, most foods, I still had boundaries. So it was like, I would allow myself biscuits, but not chocolate biscuits, for instance. You know, like, I would be like, well, you can have a wine biscuit if you want a wine biscuit, but don't buy
Choc mints. Cameo creams. Delicious. Or like, you know, anything that I know, like, you know, we've talked about, you know, like hedonic foods, anything that's hedonistic, like you just, it's highly palatable, food with no breaks, you can't stop eating it. Like there are foods like that to me that I know, and that's what I'm talking about, that I don't keep in the house. I can keep ice cream because that ice cream doesn't do it for me like that. I can, yeah.
Yeah. And do you know, Michelle, like more and more, as I'm walking through the supermarket, I'm seeing food manufacturers come up with these, like, how do you top, like, what kind of hedonistic food can we create now that's really going to push every single button? Like, and this is where you get the crisp, like the Marmite flavored chocolate crisps, you know, something or other, or you get this ice cream that's popcorn that is also, I don't know, Sultan...
salt and vinegar chips. So, you know, it's just these, this flavor upon flavor upon flavor to the point where I'm like, that actually repulses me that someone has created this thing. It is just sort of relying on the, on that hedonistic nature of humans that is just going to come and devour the entire lot. Like it is built to overeat and I just cannot believe the creations that some food manufacturers are coming up with now. I don't know. Just an observation. Your comments reminded me of that. Yeah, it's wild. It's, it's so wild.
And that's the thing, like you can't, and I talked about this before, like your reptilian brain that is built to survive is gonna seek that food out and it's gonna hijack the system and it's gonna go, we need to eat all of this because we might not get food again. So even though you know in the back of your mind you can get this food any time, there's that part of that hedonistic part of your brain is like, let's just go for it. And then if you've got the catastrophizing part, which a lot of us do,
That's another sort of adaptation, I would say. Catastrophizing comes from adaptation of our childhood when we've gone through difficult stuff, which we can talk about if you want. But if you've got that, then well, that's when you get into the all or nothing. That's when if you've eaten something like that, then it's like, oh, we've blown it now. We might as well just eat everything and we can never do this. We can't stick to it. Yeah. Totally. And you know, it's funny, some...
Like I did a Mondays in February and I get like feedback forms from people afterwards. And one of the comments on it from one person was, just too obsessive about food actually. Like this whole plan is too obsessive about food. Which is a really interesting comment. Because of course I want to create...
plans that aren't just your chicken, broccoli, and brown rice. Of course. And so I try and I do like interesting things. And actually to be fair, I wasn't sure whether they were referring to me, myself, and my plans or the Facebook page, which could be because of course the Facebook page is geared towards supporting a community and you know, it is all about the food really. That's sort of the connecting into integrating piece. But there is drama around food. Yeah.
You know, and I wrote a post about this today actually, is that that catastrophizing mind creates this drama in your head. And it's just, people are just overly dramatic about some of their choices. It's not make or break, you know, just make it, own it, move on, no big deal. But if so, if you had that attitude, then people would probably be a lot, be in a slightly different position to what they might be now, but.
make sense from what you how you're sort of describing how our brain sort of operates it this is why people have that all or nothing. That's right so the it's not that they're trying to be difficult or dramatic or trying to catastrophize it's that they've they've got an adaptation that has been created as essentially we pick up stories along the way like we we pick up narratives and but in ways we feel like we need to behave in order to be love, seen, safe, connected.
the things that we go through our life with. And we observe these things as a child. So depending on what you've grown up with, whether it's the home that you've been in or whatever caregiver you've had, if you've observed these kinds of behaviors and you've felt like you've needed to be hyper vigilant and really watch what you say, or you've had to watch everyone's micro movements to see if they're gonna be in a good mood or a bad mood. And like, this is essentially how I grew up, observing my father.
Um, you know, is today going to be a good day? Are we going to be, you know, like it's those things. And so like when you've grown up with that, you've got this kind of, you know, really kind of amazing capacity to observe people and observe little micro movements and observe every single pattern. And, but what it leads to as you get older is it means that now a friend could say something and you couldn't think it means the worst thing in the world that they were intentionally being mean to you. Or.
You could catastrophize the diet or anything like that. It can lead to really quite awful behaviors as you're older. But if you're not aware of those and you don't realize your mind is doing this to you, essentially it's trying to keep you safe. It's all for a purpose. That's what I mean about getting curious. It's like getting curious about what is the purpose behind it? You don't do something for no purpose. There's always a purpose behind it.
So it's figuring out what that is. And that's essentially what I do is helping people discover how you figure that out. And I do that through a series of, whether that's exercises I get people to do, whether it's questionnaires I get them to fill out, I get them to explore more with, whether it's journaling or certain styles of journaling, or even just talking with them about stuff. And this is again, where I'm going with my course is I wanna try and have like,
a little community where people that are struggling with this can understand where the stuff is coming from for them and get self, in the self-development world, it can be really scary because you don't know where to start and you can also get really overwhelmed by the kind of wellness culture that can be a little bit like, can seem a bit crazy at times, you know. So it's a hard one to navigate because you're sort of like, oh God, where do I go? Who do I follow? Who do I do this with?
And essentially people who follow me and like what I have to say and they feel like they resonate, they go, I really like what she's got to say and I get it. I see where she's at. So I feel like she's the right person. So, you know, and that's, so I'm not here to like, you know, change everyone. Like, you know, certain people would prefer a different approach, but this is the way that, you know, I've found, um, has been super helpful. And the thing is like, it's not about.
to me necessarily getting to a destination. You don't get to a health destination and go, oh yeah, I'm here now and we're all good. Things are gonna change, things are gonna happen in your life. I'm in that age, and I know you will be too, Mickey, the perimenopause part's approaching and things are changing in your body. But we go through changes every 10 years, right? Everything's changing. And we go through changes every single day, but we are actually changing all the time.
If you don't learn how to cope with those changes and adapt and understand, like I said, understand your nervous system, understanding when it's doing these things, understanding when you're repeating patterns, when you're doing the things that are destroying yourself, when you really don't want to be, but there's part of you that kind of can't stop. If you don't understand that, you're going to keep repeating it for the rest of your life. Yeah.
And that's regardless of what diet you're on. Like you can have the perfectly formulated diet and, and still be like, why can't I do this? And I know I've, I've got clients that have worked, you know, they followed your plan and I, and they've come to me and they're like, this plan's awesome, but why can't I stick to it? And then we do the work and now they're like, Oh my God, like I'm in a completely different head space now because they start now they're understanding their triggers.
So when they're feeling like they want to go and eat something, they're like, ah, here we go. Now I know what's going on. Like I can question it and I can get curious and we can understand why I'm feeling this way and not to be afraid of the emotional part and just really understanding all of that. And so that's essentially what I'm trying to do in forming this course is put that into a kind of more easily digestible and more, I guess, accessible way.
for more people to get to it really, because I think, you know, especially when it comes to coaching and one-on-one, like it's the creme de la creme, but a lot of people just don't have that kind of money, especially at the moment with the cost of living. And so I'm trying to bring something about that can reach more people that will be a bit more self-led. So the way, shall I dive into to what it's gonna cover a little bit? Yeah, do it. Okay, so it's gonna be basically daily emails where you'll either get,
An exercise you're going to do will be like a little mini video from me. So it will be kind of like a, you know, whether it's it will depend on what it is, but it'll be basically for the the majority of the course, pretty much every day you'll get there. And then I'm going to do two lives, which will basically be like a Q&A. And so I'll put all the complete details on my website, but it's going to be led around everything that I've basically talked about, which is understanding
your nervous system, understanding your patterns, how you can really understand where you've picked the stuff up from. There's a term called internal family systems, which is from Dick Schwartz. He's actually like a fantastic work and it's really understanding kind of how, and we talked about this the other day, Mickey, how you had these almost these parts of yourself, like these different parts of you that kind of...
like come up. So it's kind of exploring that element and like really understanding why is there this part of you that's real sabotagey or really, you know, or is the kind of like people pleaser or you know, whatever it is. So like understanding those elements. There's a little bit nutritional, but that's not really the mind's more mindset. Like I would rather do the mindset because I know, I know that most diets will work if you've got the right mind. If your mind can, if you, if you can handle
changing, getting your neocortex part of your brain to operate, which is the body brain, if you can get that to kick into gear, then you can make behavior change. But if you can't get that part of your brain to start operating, you're shit out of luck, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And that all sounds great. And I'm just thinking back to your, what you were saying about that hypervigilance, you know, with the way that people sort of like...
you know, your reactions or how you feel is sort of set up from, you know, when you were younger and had to sort of micromanage your behavior around certain people. Yeah. In my head, I'm like, surely everyone had a relationship. Is that not, didn't everyone not have a relationship like that? I just think back to my childhood and then think back to my, and now I'm thinking my adulthood, I'm like, there are still people today. Some of them have, you know, recently, you know, I don't, no longer and sort of, you know, in contact with them in part, you know, just because it's, you know, life, I suppose.
I've definitely got like three or four people in my childhood where it was definitely like that. Isn't that everyone's experience? I think the majority of people have a lot of experiences like that. And I think that I couldn't put a number on it because I'm certainly no scientist, but I would say like 90% of people probably have it. But I think it is a varying range between the level of...
dysfunction you grew up in and that's going to be on a sliding scale, right? So you can have mega dysfunction and you have just picked up so many sabotaging elements to your mind. That is completely different to someone that has had the most, um, encouraging safe environment to grow up in that doesn't have that same self-deprecating. Now I actually did.
I actually did a poll on this on my Instagram a while ago because me and my best friend were talking about it actually. And I said to her, do you ever feel bad about yourself? Do you ever, you know, feel like you pick your body apart? Do you pick, you know, what you do for a job? Like any part of you, like whatever it is, like whether it's physical, behavioral, whatever. And she was like, nah, nah, I don't.
Maybe when it comes to my abilities at work, if I feel like I haven't quite mastered something maybe then but no, no I've never done that and I was like, are you serious? So anyway, I was like, okay, and then I talked to my husband and I was like, what about you? And he was like, oh you're to a degree and then so I feel like there's levels to this I feel like I'm at like a level 7 I feel like my husband's at like a level 3 and I felt like my friends at a level 0 So it was kind of you know to me like there's so I feel like and it's almost like you're looking through lenses
It's almost like you're looking through a lens and sometimes that lens can be really cloudy and dark and like really feel hopeless. And sometimes you have no lens and it's clear as day and it's amazing. So I feel like there's a portion of the population that it's very small portion of the population that doesn't feel self-deprecating. And the percentage on my poll, I think was pretty much 90, 95 or 90% to 5 to 10, 10% of people.
the majority being self-deprecating. Yeah, and it's interesting that, and I suppose your audience might be skewed more towards it because of the information that you share, but I really like that interpretation actually. So despite your micro sort of having that sort of feeling, it's I guess the environment which you grew up in could determine.
sort of like your response to that, I suppose. So if your response is to use food to soothe or maybe use sport to, you know, to, you know, sort of get it out of your system. I don't know. Yeah, totally. I think and some things can, of course, you know, and this can always come down to the society that we live in can deem one being more healthy than the other, right?
you know, using food seems unhealthy and it is unhealthy, but you know, like, but using sport can seem healthy. But of course that can also be unhealthy. Like they can both be unhealthy, right? In the, in context, everything in context, of course. But yeah, I guess it's, it's really understanding that, I mean, some people can have perfect child. I've got clients who have had the most amazing childhoods, but they still feel this way. So it's not necessarily, I don't think it's always about that, but I still think that
then comes down to the nervous system. And the nervous system is still about adaptations that you have made along the way. And that's assumptions, essentially. It's assumptions that you've made along the way through external factors from people maybe looking at you a certain way, giving you certain cues, whether that's emotional, physical, whatever. And you have then thought, I've got to change the way I now behave in order to serve you, in order to, you know. And this is where
I've dealt with quite a few clients that feel really lonely and a lot of people that feel really lonely, like even in relationships. And it's like, often to me, the reason that they're lonely is not because they, you know, they've got people around them, but they feel lonely because they're not really being authentically who they are. They're being who they think they need to be in order to be loved and accepted by the people that are around them. You know, and that's a real common one.
So again, that comes to judgment, that comes to people pleasing. And these, like I said, these are all adaptations that we make these judgments along the way to figure out if we're gonna be safe or not, if we're gonna be loved, if we're gonna be taken care of. Because all you need to think about is, the fact that we grew up in a tribe, and if you didn't have a tribe, you're dead. Like there's no survival if you don't have a tribe. So there is a...
That's why we do this because we essentially we need people. And even though we're now living in a world where we feel like we don't need people as much because of the way that society has skewed and my, and my observation, not great and not a great way. Um, but it has. And so people are feeling more and more isolated and, um, and that leads to more mental unwellness in my, my view, but
I think at the end of the day, we still need people. You know, like we still like you and you know for yourself, like you can have all the video calls in the world, but until you see someone and give them a hug and feel the energy and like, there's nothing like it. You know, we go have a weekend with your girlfriends compared to having a chat on the phone. It's completely different. Yeah, totally. So yeah. And it's, and yeah, certainly COVID has a long tail, you know, like, and it's- Very long tail. Just because-
for all intents and purposes it's done and dusted doesn't mean that we're not experiencing the aftermath, I guess. Oh, 100%. Yeah, it has had a huge effect, I think, on everyone. And even when you think it hasn't, I even remember when it was even happening. I was exercising every day. I was eating the best, because there was no takeaways.
So I was eating so well, I think I was working out in the morning, I was walking in the afternoon or the evening. I was, it wasn't, I loved that part of it for the time being. You know what I mean? Like, because it was really cool, you know, like Mike was home more, we got to walk together and you know, like the demands weren't as great. And there was kind of a nice element to that. But then the other element was that eventually you get to the point where you actually need to see people and you actually need, you know, connection and
And even like group sports, for example, if you go to a yoga class, it's completely different to doing a yoga class at home. Yeah, like completely different. And because you're getting a collective energy of everyone and there's no substitute to me, there's no substitute for that. So yeah, there's a big, big effect from, and I think a lot of people, they've kind of gotten comfortable in that semi uncomfortable part. Yeah, and so I think in terms of when I was,
when I talk about, you know how you were saying about that guy who said when it's, sometimes it feels easier to stay in your kind of like, that zone instead of like, you know, pushing yourself and doing the work. That to me comes down to, again, it's that like constant comfort seeking behavior. Yeah. And it's, and again, it's your dopamine system being hijacked and,
you're just wanting more and more of that comfort. And the more comfort you have, the more you want it. But the more you get yourself out and do things that are hard, and you will know this, because when you go and do like a ice bath or a cold water dip or something, you feel fantastic. But the fear of doing it is the hardest part. You're like, oh my God, this is gonna be so hard, it's gonna be so cold. I know, yeah. It's gonna suck. And then it's amazing and you feel fantastic. And so there, and then you feel like you can do more hard things, right?
Yeah. And it's funny you say that actually, because I'm having a run with a friend tomorrow and we're doing a run where we always did a cold dip afterwards, but it has been obvious. It's been nine or 10 months since we've done it. And I'm like, are we going for a dip later? And she's like, yes. And I'm like, so I just write, cool. And I'm like, he's going, oh shit. But I know, but I remember how amazing it feels. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing, like,
To me, confidence breeds confidence, and the opposite is true as well. And those things all take action. You've got to basically get into that place where you can take the action regardless of the outcome, and people get too hyperfixated on the outcome. And so when I, I think I might have said this the other day on our call was...
Optimize for the start line, not just the finish line. That's in James, James clear atomic habits. That's where that comes from. And it's something I've always like remembered is just like optimize for the start line. Don't think about just the end goal because, and you know, especially if you're chasing aesthetic goals and there's nothing wrong with that. But if that's all you're chasing, you're going to be disappointed very quickly because the goalpost is going to move because you're going to get to that next stage in your body composition and go, ah,
I've got to shift a bit here, move a bit there, that's not quite right. You know, like, we become very dissatisfied with our appearance and our aesthetics very quickly, especially in the compa- like because we're comparison creatures, you know, you can't get away from it. You're never going to not be able to compare. It's just it's again, like we're the kind of beings that we are, we just naturally are going to compare. And so that's just not a good enough reason. You've got to find something beyond that.
And so, yeah, to me, you've got to find your why. You know, I like to find your why. Like, why is it that you want to do it? Why do you want to change things about your life? What is, you got to have enough reasons so that when it does get hard and accepting and expecting that it will get hard and you will struggle as part of it. And until you can make peace with that, I think you'll be chasing it forever. Yeah. No, Michelle, I wholeheartedly agree. And that's why
I love jumping on a call and just chatting to you about this stuff because it's, you know, I find it super interesting and I'm, you know, I did my anatomy of fat loss was, which was basically a mindset course before Monday's matter. And I'll be doing that again as well, but it's no, I mean, it's very different to what to how you do it. Cause it's not nowhere near as in depth, but it's, it's absolutely critical because if you're not in a good head space coming in, then.
Then you'll be great for four weeks and then you'll wonder why on earth you can't continue. So this is an uncomfortable sort of thing for people to think about because it changes. They have to examine parts of their life which they're trying to ignore. And at some point you've actually, if you're going to make real progress, and this is, yes, we're talking about weight loss, but this is just in life. That stuff you have to deal with. You want to sort of live your full potential amazing life.
Yeah, that's right. And like, you're never going to get to your highest self, if you want to call it, whatever you want to call it, or the best version of yourself. If you keep chasing something that is, is always going to be on a moving scale, like it's never going to be, it's never going to stay the same, like nothing ever stays the same. So yeah, it's a really, it's a, it's a hard one, I think, for people to like, accept. And like you said,
You do often have to delve deeper and a lot of people don't want to delve deeper. Like it's actually like, we'll just leave that stuff there. But you know, there's something, and this is actually something that I have come to understand and come to learn and, and I don't know if I even talked about this the other night, but it was on one of the questions that you've been given. I was thinking quite a lot about it. Um, and I don't know if you've ever heard of somatic work, well, like breath work, breath work. Yeah. And so I.
You know, when you, and I'll just jump back to where we, I was talking about when you've gone through certain traumas when you're younger. So, and I'm not talking like, I mean, there's obviously extreme traumas that people go through, like the very extreme end, but even when there's like what they call CPTSD, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, which is basically lots of little t's, lots of little traumas. So.
you know, lots of dysfunction in the household, not necessarily one big war or one big brain injury event or what, you know, like one big something like that. So when you've had that and you've had trauma and we as humans, unfortunately, in the world that we live in, we've been told to just like brush it off and just suck it up and continue on. And that's what we do. We put on a brave face and we're like, we're fine or whatever we might have a little like, oh, go to a pity party at the time. Or what, not pity party, but we might have a bit of a
you know, depending, but when you're young and when you're a child, you don't normally have the language and no one's normally coming to you. Well, not when, not when we were all growing up, it's happening now for children, but in our generation and our parents and our grandparents generation, that was just not done. Like it was not a thing. And if you think of again, we like animals. And if you think of an animal that gets chased in the wild or, you know, even if a dog has an attack or anything like that afterwards, they start shaking.
You know that they start shaking and it's actually their adrenaline that they're like, yep. So we don't, we need to shake. We need to actually, and that's why breath works so powerful because essentially it's stagnant energy. It's all the layers of trauma that get built up. And if you don't deal with that somehow, which again is addressing your nervous system, you are going to keep repeating all these patterns because you have formed those patterns
had to adapt to them, essentially. So without going too much into it, but that's, you know, like, somatic work's really powerful. So even if it was like, if you're singing, like using your vagus nerve, whether it's humming, this is where like eye spas, breath work, yoga, you know, all those things that can be really powerful because they can really help to shift that sort of undelt with trauma in the body. Yeah. Yeah.
Also Michelle, and I don't doubt that that's stuff that you'll be delving into in your course. Oh yeah, yeah, all of that stuff is, it's just my jam, because I know how much, and even though obviously this last couple of years has been a big struggle and yes, I've gained a bit of weight and I'm not as fit as I was and all those things, I've still, I haven't gone right back to where I was and I've still kept a lot of really healthy habits. I've just had, to me, I've had a hump.
I've had a little life event happen, well not a little, it was actually quite big, but I've had a life event happen that kind of tripped me up. And again, it kind of just shook my ground a bit, do you know what I mean? Like it shook my footing, my grounding. And so really it's like reminding myself of what I am capable of, the capacity I do have, what I can change, what is in my power to
Oh, this sucks. I'm, you know, I got to back here or I've got, you know, whatever. Like try not to get into that headspace, getting into a like, look, I've got the information. I know what I need to do. And essentially that's what I want to help others with because I know until you address that part, you just, you're not going to shift it. And especially if you've got everything that I've just been talking about, if you've got elements of that going on in your life.
that it's really hard to shift stuff if you are just white-knuckling it. You feel like you're holding your breath and you feel like you're handcuffed to that eating plan. And unfortunately, you know, and I love your eating plan. I think your eating plan is amazing. And excuse me. And I think those things are fantastic for people to get a good footing and a good understanding. I've had so many people praise your plan. Like they're just like, oh my God, her recipes are amazing. And I just love, like, I just love her. And I'm like, I know she's incredible. I thought of not Mickey forever.
And I think it's so cool for people to have a reset like that, to have something to get on and understand how their body works and understand why they need protein and all of those things. Like, these are the things we need to know. Yeah, totally. And the mindset stuff just underpins it all. That's right. Yeah. So it's all just like a happy marriage together, right? I agree. I agree. They go together. Yeah. Hey, Michelle, so when is your course sort of due to come out? Do you have a date yet? I do. I do.
4th of August. Amazing. So, not that long. And do you have a wait list? For my one-on-ones or for the group? No, no, for your group. Oh, or for your ones, one-on-ones. But yeah, are you getting people to sign up to get information? Yeah, so I am saying to people to subscribe to my website for my emails. Excellent. Because the first 48 hours, there will be a discount code so that people could, the first people on my list.
can get that early bird price and get access to that. And then after that, obviously it will go up as things do. That's what you do. That's how you run a business online these days. Yeah, so is 4th of August the launch date for the course or is it that's when it's going to be available to sign up? Yes, that's when we kick off. Amazing.
Awesome Michelle. Thank you so much for having me. Oh I love it. It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Yeah no I absolutely love it Michelle. So what remind people where they can find you and of course I will put it in the show notes as well. Fantastic. So Michelle matangi, that is just my website michellmatangicom. That's the same for my Instagram. Unfortunately my Facebook's been hacked so you can't get to that. You can email me through my website or you can just email@example.com
Amazing. Michelle, thanks so much. Oh, thank you, Mikki. A pleasure.
Hopefully you really enjoyed that conversation and as I said keep an eye out on social media or contact Michelle through her website to get first details on this new course because I think it's going to be a game changer for her.
Next week on the podcast, I speak to Dr Katia Martin, all about metabolic adaptation and dieting. Super cool conversation. I know you're going to love it. Until then though, you can catch me over on Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition, over on Instagram, Twitter and threads @ mikkiwilliden or
head to my website mikkiwilliden.com and you can book a one on one call with me or sign up to one of my meal plans. Alright team, have a great week.