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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
I have to start today
with a brief story.
So it was when, back when I
was working at Twilio, and
our portfolio was one of the
newer ones to the business.
We operated kind of
like a startup within
a larger organization.
we had this big
deal close, right?
And it was one of the
first massive enterprise
deals that we got.
And of course, the sales
leadership ex- is excited, and
the executive team is excited,
and we're all celebrating.
And then someone said
something like, "We need to
get more of these deals, more
like this one." I remember
that moment so vividly, and
I'd bet there are other PMMs
out there who have been in
similar situations because
it always falls on PMMs to
help create the strategy
and messaging to get there.
All B2B companies out
there have been here at
some point in time, where
they've had success in SMB
or mid-market, and then they
start looking up market.
But moving up market isn't
as simple as just selling
to bigger companies.
Enterprise buyers often
care about different things.
They have different
stakeholders involved, and
the messaging that helped
you win those earlier
customers may not resonate
with the people who are
signing the larger contracts.
So today's episode is
about how to identify
those signals and turn
them into a repeatable
go-to-market motion.
And I could not think
of a better person to
have this conversation
with than Quintin Smith.
Quintin is a two-time
founding PMM who has spent
his career helping high-growth
startups figure out how to
turn those early traction
deals into scalable growth.
He was the founding PMM
at CaptivateIQ, helping
build the product marketing
function during a period of
hypergrowth, and today serves
as the product marketing
lead at UniFi, where he's
helping shape the go-to-market
strategy for one of the
fastest-growing AI native
companies in go-to-market.
Today's case study actually
comes from Quintin's
time at CaptivateIQ.
During a period of rapid
growth, the company started
seeing signs that enterprise
buyers were getting outsized
value from the product.
So the challenge was figuring
out whether those wins
were isolated successes
or if it was the beginning
of something much larger.
So Quintin helped uncover
those patterns behind
those deals, reshape the
messaging, all around
the executive buyers,
and built the playbooks,
enablement, and campaigns
that ultimately doubled
enterprise ARR within a year.
Quintin, it is amazing
to have you on the show.
thanks so much for having me.
Have been following
the f- uh, show.
You've had some amazing
speakers on, so really
grateful to be here, Um,
and just a little, uh,
additional on myself.
So as you kinda mentioned,
I've been in, uh, I've been
in, uh, product marketing
or sales enablement role
for almost a decade now.
So have seen a lot of
different things there, uh,
lots of different-- all of the
ins and outs of it, uh, across
multiple different companies,
more enterprise-y all the way
down to now a, uh, under 100-
employee startup, uh, in AI.
So have seen it on all fronts,
but h- really passionate
about PMM, super excited
to be here, and really s-
like passionate about how
PMM plays such a critical,
um, middle role in a company
between what you're building
and how you're selling it.
So really excited to talk
about all that today.
I love that.
So just as a sneak preview
for some of our guests, not
only will we talk about this
awesome case study, but just
given, Quentin, your unique
background and kind of, you
know, places you've served,
I'm gonna try to also cover
just the experience of being
a founding PMM, and then
also being a founding PMM at
an AI native company where
that is such a buzzword in
and of itself, and there
is such a mixture of hope
and excitement and maybe
a little bit of distrust
with all this AI talk.
So, I wanna try to
squeeze all that into
this conversation as well.
Enfin
So without further ado,
let's dive right in.
Okay.
So you are currently at UniFi,
and I wanna come back to
UniFi and your time there.
But today's case study
is actually about another
startup you worked at,
and that was CaptivateIQ.
So give us a quick summary
for those who may not
know, what is CaptivateIQ?
What's kinda the main
service offering?
Awesome.
Yeah.
So when I joined, or at the
time I joined, as simple
as possible, uh, CaptureIQ
was commission software.
So what it did was,
commissions obviously like
often a back office function
for like incentives, so paying
out your sellers based on how
they perform, uh, often run
in spreadsheets, but it can
be in- highly inaccurate and
also can be like a strategic
driver for your business.
So, uh, it's a really
important function that's
often overlooked and
no great tools for it.
So, uh, CaptureIQ, um, was
one of like the fastest
growing in that, displacing
spreadsheets and really
bringing on a lot of, uh,
startup early stage brands to
their commissions platform.
So, now they've even branched
further into the sales
planning world and into
this broader category of
sales performance management
for folks familiar,
uh, with that space.
But, um, yeah, that's
really what CaptureIQ is, so
I love that, and it's, um,
it's very helpful as we start
to think about what this case
study is going to look like,
'cause I imagine we're gonna
get into, um, your particular
persona and, you know,
what things were resonating
with, you know, mid-market
versus upmarket segments.
So, okay, now thinking more
closely on CaptivateIQ,
tell us more about what
the situation was like, you
know, when you started there.
obviously we're talking about
moving upmarket, but maybe,
like, right before that became
a priority, what was going
on and, and what led to that?
so a little bit
about my background.
So when I joined Catbird IQ, I
was hired as the founding PMM.
I believe I was the fourth
person on the marketing
team, and they were just
seeing a ton of success.
I came in right before
the Series C. They were
gonna raise 100 million and
just over a billion-dollar
valuation, so unicorn status.
You know, had the, uh, New
York Stock Exchange billboard,
like really exciting moment
for the company and really
that like critical like
juncture in growth, right?
Where they'd seen a ton
of traction with kind of
lookalike hot startups in
the SaaS space at the time.
I think this was a 2021,
I wanna say at the time.
Uh, but just a lot of like,
they had folks like Gong,
who was like a fast-growing
up, up-and-coming Sa- SaaS
player that they'd had from
the beginning, and similar
type, like these smaller
but really hyper-growth
SaaS companies that they'd
grown well with, seen
success with.
of like, like go-to-market
darlings, you know?
Like, that s- that space was,
like, getting really hot,
I feel like, in that time.
It's still actually
very, and a very
attractive space to be in
100%. So they were like one
of the hot players at the time
who was getting to working
with other folks at similar
stage and seeing a lot of suc-
success as they grew out their
go-to-market organization
and naturally needed to
stand up at scale commissions
plans really quickly.
So that was proving out
really well, selling a lot.
Uh, but as they were maturing
into this really, like,
established more mid-market
and kind of crossed the chasm,
like, uh, classically moving
to those large scale buyers,
um, they were looking to
really build out a more robust
both marketing function,
sales function, and really
just across the business.
So that was really the
point at which I came in and
kind of that like strategic
juncture for the business
Yeah.
Okay, so, the company's at
this really exciting moment,
and it was a, it was both
of natural progression
for the company, but there
were also a lot of market
signals that there was
appetite that was, that maybe
started and just easier to
capture in this enterprise,
or, um, I'm sorry, in this
mid-market and SMB segment.
But you start to see
signals that, okay, now
enterprises are catching on.
It's so funny.
I feel like enterprises,
while they have the biggest
budg- budgets and biggest
teams, they're actually
sometimes slower to pick up
on the innovations, right?
So what was actually
then going on?
Like, what was the
actual business challenge
that you personally,
became tasked with then?
Yeah.
So, and it was funny, we'd
obviously, uh, in addition
with some of the traction
we're seeing, like there
were a few logos that had
come through the door that
were like, "Oh wow, we're
actually unlocking value
for this really large scale
company." Like whether that
be in SaaS or even some
of the like adjacent more
like tech forward companies
and non-SaaS industries.
And we're just like, uh, as
I think you just get like
shiny object syndrome in a
company when you see like,
oh my God, like we've been
selling, you know, 30 ARK, ARR
deals and we just sold a 200K.
What if we just sold 10 of
these and we can meet our all
of those different things?
So the business starts to
get really, uh, you know,
everyone gets a little
bit, not distracted, but
the, uh, opportunistic when
that shows up naturally.
So, uh, when that started
happening and we like even
identified like early on
that that was like there was
some, like a key proponent
of our product was that
we're like highly flexible.
We're almost similar
to a spreadsheet where
you could really build
anything, and that was
like highly valuable for
enterprises, uh, in the space.
So like that was another
thing that we're like, okay,
there's probably something,
like there's probably
something here that we could
lean into, but it wasn't
necessarily like, okay, like
intentional move up market.
It was more like, okay, how do
we replicate these like three
200K deals or like this 600K
deal we almost won like last
year based on that loved us,
but just we didn't have this
one feature and really like
turn this into like, what if
we put intentional dollars,
effort, like marketing
focus, enablement all towards
this thing and sprint at
this and what can happen?
So that was really the
task at hand is like,
hey, can we like make this
repeatable and like actually
go find more of these?
So that was, that's
where we're at.
I love that, and I
wanna, um, double-click
on something you said.
You mentioned a lot of things,
but one of the things in your
list that you mentioned, and
in addition to obviously,
like, resources, but focus
on something like this.
And the reason why, I know
that sounds really trite,
but the reason why I wanna
double-click on this is
because I have seen, as you
pointed out, organizations
get really excited about
chasing the shiny object,
but you're still trying to
maintain everything else.
And when, e- especially
for a startup, when you're
spread too thin like
that, you lose focus.
So it sounds like you were
very intentional, very
intentional about, "No, no,
no, this is the strategy
we're going to try to make
repeatable, so let's go
after that." So where did you
start, I guess, with all that?
What's kinda the first
thing that you did?
Yeah.
And that's such a,
like, good observation.
I think that's so easy
to get, like, distracted,
and there needs to be,
like, intentionality
in that, like, push.
It can't be, like, an outlier
thing where like, oh, you
know, three months later
this customer is churning
because we realized we weren't
cut out for this, right?
Like, that was not we were,
like, seeing out of the
gates, and I think, like,
that would've been, like,
a full mistake if that had
b- had been the case, and,
like, that's oftentimes
probably what happens.
Like, some companies and
just products are really
f- well fit and can, like,
achieve, like, massive scale
selling to SMBs and being
this really user-forward,
self-serve, like, fast,
uh, lower ARR companies.
So at the time, like we were
looking into a bit of that,
but, like, what was, like,
those first steps we took?
One fortunate thing that
we had is like, um, we
had already a really st-
as our PMM team, we had a
strong win-loss motion set
up, which if for any of
the PMMs listening, like
win-loss can be one of the
most strategic and valuable
programs you can, build out
at any company, like the
insights you get from them.
I think, like, the pr-
challenge with win-loss is
like, it feels like, like a
nice to have oftentimes, where
it's just like this, you know,
and it's not on fire, right?
It's just like a thing you
could add as like, as like
a vitamin versus like,
yeah, like a painkiller,
you know, with the business.
But it has such a strategic
impact when it's done
right, and we really, like,
invested in that early.
So we're able to, like,
use not only that program,
which gives you a lot of,
like, qualitative insights
from, like, these 30-minute
interviews that we'd have with
a one-off sales, one-off with
the close-won and close-loss
champions that we talked to.
In addition to that, we
were running, like, and
this was pre, like, real
AI-- like strong AI or like
s- uh, wide AI adoption.
So I was building, like, pivot
tables and spreadsheets of
like, okay, for all of our
close-won and close-loss,
like for the deals we
won in enterprise, what
industry were they in?
Which personas were
we winning with?
Which incumbent
solutions were they on?
And kind of looking at these
splices of the market and
seeing, oh, okay, where
are there, like, wedges
or, like, things that
we're like, "Oh, this is,
like, a unique insight.
That's surprising." Like, this
is, like, very unique, uh,
based on, like, goes against
what we, like, had previously
understood or, like, how
we have sold historically.
So that really allowed
us to, like, really start
devising a strategy based
on, like, those insights
we're in, like, turning
over rocks with those, like,
qual-quant analysis in advance
of this, which can, like,
really guide the strategy.
So that's where we really
started on that front.
I love that.
I have to echo the value in
a good win-win loss program.
That is where we have unlocked
so many unique opportunities
at multiple organizations that
I personally have worked at.
and I know we're
gonna talk about AI.
I know we're gonna
talk about it.
But, but I just have to say
really quickly, there is
some value in not outsourcing
everything, o- every part of
your analysis to AI, because
there are things that you
as your human judgment is
stronger at discerning than,
you know, a bot basically.
So, while I'm not discouraging
using AI, especially for
like synthesizing information
and analyzing a lot of stuff
really quickly, like I'm
not saying don't do that.
I… That's also valuable.
But this was all-- The way
you did was pre-AI, and
that's pretty impressive.
Yeah, I know.
I can't wait to tell
that to my kids one
day.
Um,
Yeah.
Kids these
that, "Oh, I actually did
this stuff before. Like,
we used to have this thing
called a spreadsheet,"
you know, and like all
these different things.
So, um, yeah, it's crazy,
crazy to even think
about these things.
But, uh, regardless,
couldn't agree more.
And like the win lo- uh,
to the win-loss point, like
it's a great way to like, you
know, PMM I think struggles
oftentimes to like, and I've
had the same struggle myself,
like earning your seat at the
table and like having like
the strategic viewpoint in
an organization versus like
being more of like a marketer
or kind of like this no man's
land or like enablement.
There's all these
different things.
So win-loss is a great way
to like, make that more,
like more established, so
Absolutely.
It's such a good
place to start, too.
Like, if you-- There-- I've
heard a lot of PMMs want to
do voice of customer research
and, you know, maybe they
don't know what kind of
topic they should choose.
Always just start
with win-loss.
It's the lowest hanging fruit.
It's easiest to get,
you know, buy-in from
stakeholders on how you're
gonna spend your time and
how it's gonna be valuable
and all that good stuff.
So, you know,
love to echo that.
Okay.
So when you started to look at
some of the data from some of
your win-loss, uh, analysis,
what, like, started to emerge
in terms of trends and, like,
you know, g- Tell me more
about the signals you were
seeing with some of that data.
Yeah.
I think like there were
a few things that really
came to mind, uh, or
like really popped out
when we looked at it.
I think the first thing
is like, and this is like
natural as you move up
market, but the world isn't
just software companies.
Like, they, you're
not like they're the
on- the only companies
that you can sell to.
We started seeing like
really strong traction in
like, and if you look at
it at a surface level, it's
like, oh, manufacturing
and f- financial services,
but those like have the
largest TAM, so like you're
naturally gonna see more
traction in deals in those.
But when we like double-click,
it's like, okay, within those,
there's like sub-industries
of like medical devices and
banking were ones that we
actually were knocking down
on market customers with.
So like by kind of
understanding a little further
there, like there's more
nuance and niche, and you
can get a lot more specific
in your campaigns for like
sub-industries versus like,
"Hey, like we are, you know,
commissions for manufacturing
companies," and like that
doesn't change if you're,
you know, building tractors
versus, you know, man-
like plastic, like soap
bottles or whatever it is.
So, uh, I think that was
a really valuable insight.
The second was like
incumbent solutions.
So like, hey, no matter
what, and we should
always be trying, and like
conversational intelligence
makes this so easy today,
but like tracking what
solutions that companies
are on is so valuable to
understand like, oh, what
are the pains they're seeing?
Like how can we replace them?
Why?
And like we identified like
one specific software that
like as legacy was making
folks go through a migration,
and everyone was hating it
and like forced to change
anyway and re-implement, and
that's was like a really big
driver of a lot of like both
won deals and just, uh, at
least like inbound for us.
So that was another one where
it's like, okay, we should
be like targeting campaigns
at all of these customers
of that solution today.
Um, and then the third
one, um, I think the…
Oh, the persona piece.
Yeah.
Uh, persona looking at
like, hey, who's actually
leading these evaluations?
This just feels like an
obvious insight, but like
when we had a leader in the r-
like a above the line persona,
so like more of a senior
persona in the room, uh,
like whether it was like
a head of finance or a VP
of FP&A, like accounting
or even a sales leader,
that allowed us, or even
ops like more rarely.
But when they were in the
room versus having like
your sales compensation
manager or like your sales
commission to analyst who's
naturally like was really
into like the making this
job a lot easier than before,
but like what they cared
about above the line was
just completely different.
Like they didn't mind, like a
CFO or a VP of finance didn't
mind that like commissions
was like difficult.
That wasn't really
like compelling.
So we had to think of a
new narrative that didn't
just resonate with the
persona because they
just weren't, didn't have
organizational sway, so.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that insight.
That's really helpful.
okay.
So there's a collection of
signals that you picked up
on that were more unique
to your enterprise segment
as you started to dig
in to some of this data.
So now tell me a little
bit more about, you know,
maybe like the biggest
things that you learned
about like be- the actual
buyers behind some of this.
You started to tell
me a little bit more
with the personas.
Is there more to
the story there?
Yeah.
Um, one of the things like,
on that persona front, like
we have, you know, sales
commission, analyst, sales
comp, like they're oftentimes
really focused on just like
getting this out on time.
It's a grueling and brutal
role for any of my, any out
there, any listening, but,
uh, sales comp analysts out
there, like it's a really,
man, it's a really grueling
role where you're having
to sprint at the end of the
month or right after end
of month to get commissions
payments out in a very short
amount of time, aggregate all
the data that's come down,
making sure that Salesforce
data is, you know, correct,
or Salesforce CRM data is in
the right place, turn that
into your, uh, commission
outputs based on your plans
and issue those out, make
sure they're accurate.
You're always gonna get
like clawbacks or like
complaints, uh, inquiries
from your sellers who
don't understand the comps.
So they're, you're just
like up against it and
like you only, Like the
only time you're really
like organizationally like
called out is when something
goes wrong, which is a
tough position to be in.
and what we found is those,
again, those personas, like
we really like had success
with those early on and like
they exist in these roles,
but they weren't really
driving-- Were getting a lot
of inbound, but they weren't
driving the deals forward.
they were gonna be on
board no matter what.
But how do we convince like
the folks above them to
say like, "Hey, this is a
organizational, strategic,
challenge that your business
is having of like, 'Hey, your
reps aren't getting paid on
time,' or like, 'Your reps
are like leaving the company
because their comp plan, it
doesn't stack up with like
how others in the industry,'
and stuff like that.
Like that is really compelling
and like your incentive
structure could actually be
optimized to drive towards
the new business initiative
that you have, like selling
this new product, adding
services, like breaking
into a new, uh, industry.
Like if you're really
thoughtful about commissions
and incentives, like
you, that can be a
strategic advantage for a
go-to-market organization.
So we wanted to really
lead with a narrative that
more aligned with that
messaging rather than, uh,
the messaging that's like,
"Oh, like we'll just make
your job easier and get these
commissions out on time." So
Okay.
So what I love that it
sounds like you did here
is you looked at the
whole buy team, right?
Through this big
analysis that you did.
Maybe it started with
win, win-loss, but you
had all these other, you
know, supplemental and
additive data sources
that you were looking at.
But you ultimately got
super focused and clear on
the full buy team for the
enterprise segment and each
persona for that buy team.
And this is something that
I think is so hard to do,
is you get really good at,
like, the champion, right?
The, the person, the
persona for whom the
product was built.
And for you, you talked
about, like, an incentives
analyst or something
like that, a compensation
manager, something.
That-- something
like that, right?
But, you know, swap that
out with whatever this
could be in any business,
in any, for any product.
But what I think is the
really hard part for a PMM
is to take the narrative that
was so beautifully crafted
for that one persona, and
as you pointed out, it means
meaningless to the person
who actually signs at the
end of the day in enterprise.
And what gets really hard is
crafting the narrative that
now will resonate with both
or with a full buy team.
How do you do that?
Like, that's can
be so difficult.
so any other insights
you can share around how
you thought about that?
Or, or did, did you find,
like, a commonality maybe
between those two personas
and landed on a narrative
that kind of fit both?
Like, you know, tell
me more about that.
Yeah.
I think like one of the
things as we like devised the
messaging, and a lot of this,
like we, uh, you know, uh, I
was not going at this alone.
We had other PMMs and
just like an organization
who has really bought
into this at least.
But like we had really,
like we're talking to folks
like across the buyer team,
like you have this like user
obsession with like these
primary champions, and that's
who we work with, but also
like getting curious about
like those folks higher
up in the organization.
What we found is that like
this, um, narrative in
which there's really like
commissions or incentives as
a strategic lever for your
business, like, like starting
to like rethink of like, oh,
this is just back office,
like getting payment out
similar to like a pay stub
versus like, no, incentives
are a strategic driver for
whatever business objectives
you're going up against.
That's a C-suite
level like value prop.
At the end of the day, like
the commission analysts were
bought in on that too, because
it makes their function
more high value, right?
Like they don't wanna see
themselves as just like, you
know, trying to get those
commissions payments out.
They wanna view it as like,
oh, I wanna see like the
trends of like, oh, we're
only hitting, you know,
70% of quota, or everyone's
hitting 110% of quota.
That's actually a
bad commission plan.
Like, I need to like advise
my team that like I wanna
be like looking at like the
reporting and analytics and
say, "Oh, this is actually,
these outliers are not good
for us, or this trend is
not good for us. We should
revise our comp plans to
support like what makes more
sense for the business."
And then they become
more strategic as well.
So I think really everyone
organizationally was like
bought with this aspirational
view of what it should be.
How tangible that
actually is adapted,
adopted in organizations
is a different story.
But I do think that really
like was a narrative that
we could tell had bite and
was gonna like be able to
like allow us to convince
folks to move that way.
I love it.
You guys leaned into the
aspirational kind of tone,
but also reframed, I guess,
like the jobs to be done
of your primary champion
from, you know, basically
being like, not, rather than
saying like, not that you
said this 'cause you didn't,
but like cog in the machine.
You know, you've heard
of that phrase or similar
phrase before, reshaping it
to, no, you, uh, your role
can be a strategic asset
to the business, and this
is how that translates.
And that also worked
really well with your
executive buyer as well.
so once you built out
this new messaging for the
upmarket enterprise segment,
w- how did this start to
actually show up for you in
like a go-to-market motion?
Yeah.
Uh, like the way I see
like this is like once you
actually have that like
messaging in place and have
done that work, now it's
like the fun part, right?
Of like how do you turn this
into like readying your both
marketing team, like across
the board of like demand
gen, social content, and
then wrangle your sales team
too with like, uh, speaking
the same language, pitching
discovery on this new persona,
uh, demoing to them, like
all making sure that both of
these streams and like your
enterprise playbook across
the board is like humming.
So we did a lot
across the board.
Like this persona insight
was one, and we had this
message around like return
on incentives or ROI, right?
Like you wanna get more
return out of this, so
that was like kind of the
catchy, punchy version
of it, of thinking like
this is a strategic thing.
You need to get more return,
which is obviously more
revenue that you're getting
out of the incentives that
you're putting forward.
And this is done through
like really rigorous, like
looking into your commissioned
plans and structures
and analyzing it and not
spending time running the
ca- all your time running
the actual calculations.
So that was what we leaned to
as like a kind of a headline
message, but we ran a lot of
like mini plays and campaigns
out of this too, right?
Like we were doing those
sub-industry campaigns
that I messaged--
m-me-mentioned around
medical device, the medical
device space and banking.
So like adding landing pages
for those, like interviewing
customers, getting specific
case studies for those, and
starting to like stand up like
a full go-to-market bill of
materials for that specific
space and like slides.
Then like working with our
sales engineers to make sure
like the demo talk track
w-woven, like we had like an
org for that specific type
of industry, and like it was
built out with plans that
reflected their business.
So just starting to like
build like empathy into
your, uh, go-to-market motion
into small things that can
make such a huge difference.
And it's not like one
particular thing, but really
shifting across the board
and really setting them up
to have more conversations
that's gonna show up in a
way that's gonna reflect the
audience you're going after,
um, really like kinda throwing
out the old playbook and not
just trying to like throw
the same thing you've been
doing over and over again and
had success with yesterday
to-- and to run an entirely
new different audience.
Yeah.
So it sounds like it was
a both a mix of internal
readiness and, um, I
don't wanna say external
readiness, but maybe like
external like asset building.
so once you launched with
all of this, like this
was, it sounds like a, a
large volume of work, both
in terms of deliverables
and the enablement.
Like you launched it.
What happened in the end?
What were the results?
Yeah.
Um, the-- I think you
mentioned the big one
earlier on, but like being
able to 2X that enterprise
and our ARR in that first
year with all the campaigns
and plays we were running
was like really validating.
We're starting to see
those get knocked down.
We had like logos like
I think, uh, Stifel,
Stripe, Datadog.
Um, there was some in
the-- Oh, Raymond James
Canada was another one.
Um, BD, like these
really big like
Fortune 500 type of companies,
uh, that were really strong
and like, uh, great ones
for us to you know, hang
our hat on and like also
continue to like break
into those spaces that we'd
already seen success in.
So that was really exciting
and a great way to kind
of validate, uh, like the
hypotheses and like the
analysis that we did early on.
So that was great
to see there.
I love that.
Yeah, it's so impressive.
Well done.
and here's the biggest
takeaway for me is your
super valuable insight
was hiding inside your
existing customer base.
Like, you didn't have to go
do some massive, you know,
third party research or, um,
you know, you didn't have to
spend thousands of dollars
with an analyst to try to
figure out what do, what do
enterprises want, you know?
You knew, and you c-
because you followed the
signal, and then you built a
repeatable system around it.
so now what I would like to do
is turn this into a playbook,
uh, 'cause I'm sure, as we
pointed out in the beginning,
like, I personally have my
own move up market story, and
I bet hundreds to thousands
of PMMs out there are in
the thick of it right now.
And, um, this would be a very
helpful playbook for them.
So coach me on this one.
What's the first step in
this playbook if I wanted to
try to mimic your success?
Yeah.
I like to think of a lot
of like PMM work and like
being capsule, encapsulated
or at least the approach
should be thought, uh, like
repeatable in a way that is
under like the same framework.
And I, I've like coined
this with like a four Rs.
I need to put like a LinkedIn
article or a blog or Substack
out there eventually.
But, uh, my, my four Rs
framework, which is, uh,
you're starting with your
research, uh, so really
understanding the market.
Uh, then you're
refining that research.
So like, okay, of
all my findings, what
are the insights?
And then like what is
my messaging positioning
strategy, right?
You're taking those
inputs and refining them.
Then readying.
So, um, I mentioned this
like obviously you think
about like enablement as
like the classic, uh, form
of this, but I also think
like readying your marketing
team to go out and like push
top of funnel around this.
So like what type of
like webinars or events
should we attend or like
content should we run?
Like that's still like
readying that team with
the insights, messaging,
positioning to do that.
And then even your post-sale
adoption or CX, whatever,
however you're framing that
organization, making sure
they're ready to take on
new customers that reflect
that new strategy and thing
that you're pushing towards.
And lastly, report.
So like how, how
did we succeed?
Where are there room
for optimization?
Where are there maybe like,
um, you know, hints and,
uh, signals of success that
we can, can double down on?
So really like having that
analytical like look back
where you can start to predict
where you're headed next.
So, uh, that's really just
that research, refine,
ready, report is how I
like to think about it.
I love this as a marketer.
I love a good
alliterative framework.
So good.
Okay.
So basically, these are your,
this is your playbook, right?
These are your four steps.
Step one, research.
Step two, refine.
Step three, ready,
and step four, report.
So, I wanna put a little
bit more, you kind of, you
summarized already, but
I wanna put a little bit
more action, um, into some
of these for the PMMs out
there, or maybe, or just like
a quick, like, definition.
So if your step one is
research, like, just give
a good, like, definition of
that for me or maybe, like,
bullet point list out, like
some must-haves for the,
for the research phase.
Yeah.
Um, I always think like
research is like best
done like qua-- it's like
a symbol everyone knows,
but like qual and I-quant
is so both so important.
Like everyone, like a lot
of firm folks are like, "Oh,
like we could just go like,
you know, run like analysis
of like our Salesforce data."
And like now it's easier than
ever with AI, you can do that.
But to your point earlier,
like there's so much value
that can be derived from
qualitative conversations
like ha- going out and
speaking to a champion,
like asking them what's
working, what's not, and like
really like double-clicking
into the questions or
hypotheses that you have,
testing what you have.
I think that's so critical
today, especially in
like this over AI world.
Like the more you can get in
real life and like IRL and
just like start to like talk
and understand where someone's
at, like that is so impactful.
Um, also another like hack,
like I love conversational
intelligence tools like
Gong that we use Attention
like now at UniFi.
Like they are so ins- valuable
for me to just be like, uh,
I can query an agent and say
like, uh, "Tell me like, you
know, of calls with enterprise
companies, like what are
the most common like 10 pain
points that have come up, like
aggregated across calls?" And
like that used to be like us
just like going out there and
like l- combing through like
calls or like asking a, a, an
experienced salesperson and
like the fact that you can be
so much faster and actually
so much more like precise
is like really helpful.
So It's, it's unbelievable.
So, uh, I actually like
can't even imagine like
the world like, like it's
Kids these days don't
know.
don't know how hard it was,
but I think it's a good
thing long term that we'll
have like, oh, like we've
s- seen it done and we
know how we got there, so
we have the ability to…
Like I think that's why I'm
like, I'm like, I'm busier
than I ever have been,
but like I'm also like,
I'm more productive than
I've ever been, but I also
am like working more than
I never ha- I ever have.
And it's because I think
it's because I'm like, oh
wow, I can go do all this
stuff that used to take
me like a month in like
a week or a couple days.
So a very interesting
time we're in, but super
Oh, 100%, absolutely.
It's not, it's not
slowing down either.
Um, okay
so I love this for the step
one for research, and I
just wanna throw out there
one more time that the
win-loss program is such a
good, like, just always on.
It should be an always-on
program, you know?
I mean, that's something
you shouldn't stop doing.
so okay.
All right, so then
step two was refine.
So if I've done step one, I've
done my research, I have both
qualitative and quantitative,
um, so what do I do with
the step two with refine?
Yeah.
Uh, like usually like when
like I've like run an analysis
here, like turning that into
like some sort of like a
readout, even if just like to
like aggregate the information
or like consolidate the
information in a way that
makes sense of like, okay,
like here's what I went out
and did, and here's like the
key insights across these
different like some of
the findings, of course.
Yeah.
So what did you find
in this analysis?
What are those
critical things?
And then like starting
to piece that together.
If like, okay, if we know
XYZ about like our enterprise
buyers, like we know they
value flexibility, we know
that like the executive-- like
they've been, like they're
in like long-term contracts
with like these tools that
they hate or whatever it is,
and like, oh, like, you know,
the executives are the only
ones who are actually going
to like move the needle here.
Like how does that inform
how we message and position?
Like, and really, okay,
well, then we know like this
is the splice of the market
that like our positioning,
like this is like the perfect
competitor, like incumbent or
like profile of organization
that we wanna go after, like
your ICP in that sense, the
personas that make that up and
like really start to like, uh,
you know, really like sharpen
how you view the market
and who you're going after.
And then like turn that into,
okay, like we believe this
is who we're going after,
here's what is about them, and
here's what we can offer them.
Okay, like now let's like
do kind of like the more
fun part of like how do we
message to them in a way
that's compelling and like
start to like, both in a way
that's like really clear,
but also like that's punchy
and grabby and like grabs
you and like really res- will
resonate with that persona.
And then like also taking that
to make sure you put it in
front of some folks, which is
the critical step that's easy
to skip, but like not only
just like, you know, sharing
it with the executive team
and getting nods, but like
really g- and this makes it
easier to go to the executive
team too and say like, "Hey,
I had 10 conversations with
like leading, like VPs of
finance and like this, they
all agreed that this is the
most compelling narrative
and thing for us to do."
It gives you so much more
gravitas 'cause like messaging
as you, I'm sure you know,
b- better than anyone, Al,
like it's like so hard 'cause
everyone has an opinion
and no one's right, right?
Like it's just like a very
difficult thing that is
so apparent, it's so known
and out there and like, so
wrangling, like the more you
can like back it up with like,
"Hey, I've actually gone out
and got feedback on this,"
adapt, adapted and learned
and like apply that back, it
can be really helpful, so.
I love it.
I love it.
I'm gonna l- um, I'm
gonna call out a few, a
few things because the
refine step is loaded.
There are there's a lot
to do in your step two of
refine because now you've
done all the research, but
you're turning it into a kind
of like a findings readout
report for your stakeholders.
But then as part of that,
you're kind of building the
strategy along with it because
you're matchmaking your
findings with the opportunity
and, um, what y- basically
your product's capabilities
and, how that's going to show
up in terms of messaging.
and you're also saying, "And
by the way, we've already
done this message testing for
this new messaging. Here are
the findings of that too."
so it, it's, it's a lot to
do in the refine, um, step.
But I think it's, it's,
uh, it's good that it all
happens together in the same
step because it's a very,
it's a very natural way to
do all of that activity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Such a critical
one too, right?
Like that is like PMM's like
opportunity to shine is in
that refine pillar, right?
Like everything is like,
you know, other functions
are doing, but like PMM's
ability to like shape and
sculpt and like carve out
and actually turn that
into something that's gonna
resonate is like, I think
can be a superpower for PMMs
if you can get it right, so
Totally, totally.
Um, I wanna g- I'm gonna
shamelessly plug a couple
of my other podcast episodes
here that I think will be
super helpful for a PMM.
So one is, uh, uh, is
Kevin from Fleetio.
Um, he, his case study
is actually he worked
at a company called Hims
for a little bit, um,
the big, the healthcare,
you know, conference
everyone's familiar with.
Yeah.
So he, in his, like, case
study, he talked about
how he did this, like,
message testing kind of
like, uh, workshop with
executives and stakeholders,
and just his method for
that was really helpful.
So I just wanna, like,
shout out to anyone who may
be like, you know, wanting
to, as part of their refine
step, do like a little,
like, messaging workshop
with your stakeholders.
That was a really good one.
Another one is earlier on
in our conversation, you
mentioned doing like some
competitive… You mentioned
alternatives, competitive
alternatives, and I don't
know if that would be part
of your step one or step two.
Like, I don't know if
that'd be part of your,
um, research step.
I think maybe it would be.
So I should, maybe I
should, this should be
a plug for, like, the
step one in the research.
I have another podcast
episode with, her name's
Mindy from Klaviyo.
She l- built a repeatable
system for exactly what you
described, Quinten, as like
looking at the pains of your
competitors and building,
like, a system around how
you speak to those pains
from a competitive, um, uh,
objection handling, basically.
So I think, like, maybe the
research bit obviously happens
in your step one, but maybe
as part of your refine when
you're starting to build out
some of that messaging and
you're, you're considering
those alternatives, those
competitive alternatives,
like as you already pointed
out, and I'm validating what
you said with, um, another
professional in the business,
she, she does it the same way.
So plug for Mindy
from Klaviyo.
That's another
really good episode
Yeah, Kevin and Mindy.
I'll have to check
both of those out.
That sounds really helpful.
The messaging
workshops are awesome.
I think like that's such
a good way, like again,
the messaging thing,
like the hardest part of
messaging is getting buy-in.
Like that's like always
It really is so true.
That's how it gets watered
down, and you can build out
this perfect messaging that's
so good for your buyers and
the buy team, and then you
get some executive coming in,
Yeah.
And those workshops, like,
which I don't do enough of,
and I think they're so, like,
I-- they obviously, like,
you have to get everyone on
the calendar and take their
ti- like, very val- very
expensive, like, meetings just
from like a time standpoint.
But the fact that you can
get everyone agreeing and,
like, also just be part
of the journey of like,
"Hey, we started here.
This is what we said.
Based on what we said, here's
where we ended up." Like,
that allows it to, like, all
connect and, like, have less
room to, like, continue to
like, you know, spur, like,
you know, uh, iterate or
just, like, provide feedback
throughout that process,
so
Yeah.
I think what's really
beneficial for you is that
just as a founding PMM,
I'm making a little bit,
a few assumptions here.
Maybe this is all wrong, and
maybe it's more like varies
from situation to situation.
But you probably already
had a lot of more trust
and, um, I guess like not
necessarily autonomy is not
what I'm trying to say, but
that trust and faith from
your executive leadership
that maybe some of-- You
don't have to do quite as
much hand-holding with like
some of those messaging
workshops, because you guys
are probably already so tight
that you're working together
so, um, frequently anyway.
Um, and they're probably
also just by nature of being
at a startup very close
to some of the work too.
So I'm guessing that it's
not quite as difficult to get
some of the messaging buy-in.
Maybe I'm wrong,
Yeah.
I agree.
Like, it's always
like a difficult task.
I sit next to my C- uh,
CEO right now, so like I
like, that is my desk mate,
so, uh, so that's exactly
where, where we're at.
But I totally agree, and like,
I think like, obviously like
bigger organizations will like
bring in a big expensive like
agency, and then they're like,
"Tell us about your business."
And like they go through these
like long, expensive cycles.
And so like having someone
ingrained and who's seen it
and like also just like has
a good feel for like how
like your founders and your
leadership team see your
business and how you sell and
all those different things,
and also just like leaning
into your sharpest like field
folks too, like whether that's
a CSM who sees like our most
successful customers or like
a sales rep who just like
really has it and like gets
it and their message lands
way better than everyone
else, like that continues
to validate your work, so.
100%, absolutely.
Um, okay, I don't wanna get
too far off s- off track.
So your step one was
research, your step two
was to refine, and now
step three is to ready.
And they'll, like, some of
this is, like, enablement.
Like, what are the other,
like, co- just quick out-
actions that I should take
for the step three ready?
Yeah.
I think you should just view
these as like three different,
like, layers, right?
So you have your, like,
marketing lens that
you're taking for this.
So, like, it depends on
whatever initiative you're
running, but, like, in this
enterprise push, right,
we're gonna, like, w- wanna
run full-scale campaigns
in, like a-- I'm, like, been
fortunate I'll work with,
like, a demand gen leader,
a growth, uh, leader on,
like, as a partner on that
front of like, "Okay, here's
our persona messaging, ICP.
Like, here's what we wanna do.
Here's some ideas.
Like, let's get together.
Like, you can come, uh, take
that and, like, come back
with, like, campaign ideas
we can work together on.
I'll sh- work on what the
messaging is and, like, you're
gonna actually think about
what are the channels this is
gonna be most successful in,
what are the tactics we're
gonna execute on, and then
go out and execute those."
So that's like a pairing,
like you do that across, you
know, social, paid, like, uh,
webinars, content events, like
all those different things.
Like, you're working with them
to, like, take what you're
doing and translate it into
something marketing facing
that's gonna help you drive
the right leads and, like,
really, uh, build a reputation
in that new segment,
audience, vertical seg-
whatever you're going after.
So that's the piece
on the marketing side.
Then you have
your sales, right?
Of like, okay, what does
the new playbook look like?
And you have to have a
salesperson come with
you on this journey.
Like, I've done a lot of
sales enablement and, like,
making sure that you have,
like, one of your best sellers
or a sales manager who's
trusted, like, working with
you to build these things so
you're not just like the mark
PMM who comes in and tells,
like, a sales team how to
sell when they go and take
it on the chin every day.
It's never gonna resonate,
and it's never gonna,
like, move the group.
So you need, like, a champion
in the room with you who's
actually gonna, like, train
on the demo, and you're gonna
be like, I'm color commentary
about like, "Hey, this is the
industry we're going after."
Like, now they're, you know,
gonna work, you know, Al, my
sale- like enterprise AE who's
had a ton of success, is gonna
show you how you would demo
to a medical device company,
like, and, like the nuanced
change in the messaging
that, like, happened.
So that's, yeah, like
that's really the key
piece with, uh, sales.
And then, like, obv- you have
your like, I say it's like
pitch, disco, demo, like all
those pieces, getting that
right is super critical.
Lastly, on your like post-sale
side, just making sure that
they have everything they
need that, like, speak the
same language, know the
type of companies that are
gonna be coming in, and they
are ready to support them,
implement, like, uh, continue
to, like, what are they trying
to achieve as success, and,
like, how does that change
from, like, historically
how you've talked to folks.
Terminology is super key
if it's gonna be, like, new
styles of businesses and
making sure it doesn't feel
like, "Oh, like this person
knows nothing about how my
business works and isn't a
trusted consultant for us."
So yeah, making sure all
three of those teams, like,
feel equipped and ready to
take on the strategy you've
done, because if any of it
falls off, like you're really
like, it's a lot of that
work is gonna be for nothing.
So super
Totally.
Totally.
Okay, so the three layers
for the ready step are, um,
marketing, sales, and customer
success or/support teams.
Makes perfect sense.
Okay, so bring us home
with step four of report
Yes, report.
This is, I mean, this
one's obvious, but you're
really just looking back
at how performance did,
and I think those three
channels are the same way
I like to look at this.
So like, okay, because
if, for example, if you're
having success, which is
like our goal was like to
close, you know, a million
dollars in revenue in this
new vertical as an example.
Like, if you didn't achieve
that, like you can't just
point at sales, you can't
just point at mark- like, you
have to really like uncover
like what went wrong or
what went right, honestly.
So like were the campaigns
we were running successful?
Did the goals we set out
to achieve get achieved?
So on like the content piece
of the mar- webinar, like
the event, like what was like
well engaged and what should
we continue to double down
on versus what isn't working?
Or is none of it working
and we need to like go
back to the drawing board
and figure that out?
Same with the sales side of
like, oh, our win rate is
just way lower than it's been.
Like maybe sale, oh, I'm
seeing in sales calls
they're not adopting
the new talk track.
Like, oh, we need to make
sure like we retrain or
like enforce this in like
a really positive way.
Or like they're actually not
seeing success and they're
churning out and like maybe
there's a product problem
we need to feed back to the
product team, or like we
need to like help them like
equip better our CSMs to like
handle these conversations.
So really like, um, I--
that's more of like a
qualitative way of like,
okay, what's happening?
But really starting to like
look at what your goals were
across all those different
channels, seeing how you
stood up, and then like
double-clicking based on
like either where you're
really seeing success or
really not seeing success
can really be is the way like
I've approached this, so.
So good.
I like all the different,
like, angles that you're
looking at for reporting, too.
So one thing that I've
noticed is that AI is, like,
obviously incredibly good
at, like, finding patterns,
and, um, but deciding
which patterns still feels,
like, superhuman, right?
And I'm curious how much
you agree with that, and
then also how you think AI
could be changing part of
your… changing or enhancing
part of your playbook
Yeah.
Um, this, like the pattern
thing is so interesting
of like being able to like
analyze data is such a…
One, like it's a skill like I
like had to learn of like for
like these like segmentation
analysis and like probably not
my like historical skill set.
You know, I didn't go in and
get like a finance degree
and like be on all my time
in spreadsheets, so it was a
learning curve to get there.
But like learned
a lot of that.
But the fact that now I can
like say like, "Okay, I wanna
look at like based on the
deals we've won, what were the
leading persona?" And like I
can like get that data right
away is like so invaluable
and so fast as like an insight
and like one that you wanna
continually build like systems
to like have that always
on of like surfacing trends
in your closed loss data as
an ex- closed won, closed
lost data like over time.
Not to be ignored is
like continue to do those
win-loss interviews.
But, uh, regardless, you
should still be identifying
those like with AI, like
quant- having a system set
up is super critical there.
I do agree though, like
that's where like there, the
shift is of like, okay, like
they're gonna show me the
trends of like, oh, like, you
know, 20%-- like we only win
like 5% of deals when like
the champion is like a sales
com-compensation manager.
Like they're not gonna be
like, "Oh, like we need to
like move, like we need to
change our strategy to go
after these personas." Let
like connect the dots of
like, oh, we need like the
executive buyer in the room.
And that's something that PMM
from your context, from your
like experience that you can
say like, "Oh wow, this trend,
that to me tells me this.
Let me go out and quickly just
like double click and do a
few things and understand a
bit more and like be curious."
And like we can still use
AI for some of that, like
follow on analyses, but like
you're the one that's like
making hypotheses and like,
oh, like connecting the dots
on these things that like AI
naturally isn't going to do.
And like you're gonna
read out like, oh, this
like insight without like
direction is just like,
it's like kind of useless.
So like you're the one that
like takes that and points
it where it needs to go, so.
Yeah, totally.
Your judgment, your opinion,
your discernment, your
empathy, those are things
that you can't rely on AI for.
Um, okay, so you're now
at Unify, and this is
basically your kind of
second time being this
founding PMM at a startup.
What parts of this playbook
are you using for Unify,
and anything you'd,
like, change or swap out?
Yeah.
Um, I still would say
I use most of this,
of like that approach.
I think like being like
research forward and then
like taking time to like
refine those insights into
something compelling and
like writing the teams
and reporting on success.
Um, the things I will call
out is that the timeline
of those has di-- like just
being in a startup has like
gone from like months-longs
or quarter-long projects to
like weeks-long or days-long,
you've got AI now.
Yeah, exactly.
So now it's so much easier.
So, um, I do think that's
been like the biggest shift
rather than the process itself
of like, okay, like we're--
let's go look at trends to see
like where there's opportunity
that we're missing out on.
Like, okay, great, like
we've looked at this.
Like, okay, let's like,
you know, h- what is our
positioning for that,
like going after it.
So, uh, we're even working
on like a big launch now of
like, okay, understanding
our buyers and like how
we're refining it, and then
how are we gonna like, uh,
we have like a bunch of
enablement sessions next week.
So a lot of this stays
the same, but like the
biggest change is the
time- your capabilities
and the timelines.
But yeah, we'll just continue
to like be the human in
like the room and like,
don't let yourself get lazy.
Like, I find myself doing
this a lot, where you're
just like, it would be easy
just to like take what I'm
found and like put it in a
doc and kind of keep going.
But like the more you
c- like with AI, right?
Like, that just makes every-
it easy, like there's like
a laziness epidemic that's
gonna be created out of this,
that like your opportunity
to be like, I'm not only like
AI, but I'm also just like,
I'm like almost like its
own like manager, where I'm
like taking everything that
it's showing me and being
like, "Oh," like, "Here's
my feedback," or, "Here's
like my insight," and like,
"Let's turn that into a plan."
And like really like being
like a partner that way
rather than just like, oh,
letting it do the work for
me and like let it-- 'cause
it's not gonna have that like
intellect that you have from
being a PMM for years, and
like that's the advantage like
you still have in your career,
like against AI, if you wanna
keep your job, is like your
experience and your context
and those different pieces.
So,
um, that's what I,
love that.
yeah.
So
that's
kind of
love that so much.
Yeah, your experience
and your context.
I love this.
Um, okay, last question for
you, Quintin, on this topic.
Um, what's one piece of
advice you have for a PMM who
is currently trying to move
upmarket working at a startup?
Yeah.
Um, I think the big thing
for me, like throw away
everything you know.
Uh, which I think is
an important thing of
like, uh, in the way we
just said how important
experience and context
is.
I don't mean it in that sense.
Um, but what I mean is like,
hey, your old playbooks
aren't going to work.
Like, just because you
succeeded with this here
and had a ton of success
doesn't mean it's gonna
work like over here.
And like that is like a
really hard thing to like
accept sometimes of like,
oh, we're like, oh, but like
this is like a track record.
Like I'm a really successful
rep, and like I'm not
gonna change my ways
'cause I've seen success.
So like not only yourself, but
also just like getting folks
to buy into that shift is
like super crucial to having
success with these things.
So I think like that's one of
the first pieces, like both
like yourself of like, hey,
like if you were starting
from scratch and like joining
as a PMM to like, with that
specific initiative almost
as like a contractor or hired
gun, take that lens so that
you don't get like caught up
in like, oh, like my biases
or like I, I'm like what like
the best reps are saying, and
like start, start anew and see
kind of how that treats you.
I think that's really, uh,
really important thing and
like it's easy to like bias
towards what's worked versus
like, okay, I'm gonna need to
do things entirely different.
So that's definitely what I
would advise on that front.
Love it.
Thank you so much.
This is such a helpful
playbook and perspective,
and I am definitely
going to use your four
R framework of research,
refine, ready, and report.
So helpful.
Okay.
Yes.
Um, all right, so now
it's time for the next
segment of our show.
This is the
messaging critique.
This is where we as product
marketing expert- experts
get to analyze real world
messaging, and the fun part
is, Quintin, you as the guest
of my show get to pick the
company that we look at.
Some quick ground rules.
Um, you're gonna pick a
company, ideally one that you
feel like you know the c- uh,
target audience really well.
Um, you're gonna tell me what
stands out to you as really,
uh, working really well with
messaging, something you wish
the PMM would've considered
differently, and then we're
gonna iterate on how they can
take it to the next level.
So without further ado,
please reveal the company
that we'll be looking at today
Yeah, we're gonna be
looking at Profound.
Um, so, um, for
folks who aren't
Is it
profound.ai?
That's a good question.
Um, I'm looking at it.
I think it's tryprofound.com
Oh, try profound.com.
Okay, try… Okay,
just for folks who
want to follow along.
Um, yes.
So Profound, um, is
an AEO GEO, which is a
new co-- answer engine
optimization, uh,
is like the new hot phrase
in like the AI world.
So basically how to think
about it is like how do
you optimize for people who
are searching in Chat or
Claude or, uh, Perplexity,
wherever they're, wherever
they're going to do what they
would usually do in Google.
How do you make yourself
one of the vendors when
they ask, "Oh, I need a
new, uh, privacy tool for my
business," or, "I need, uh,
I need a new like tractor
for my farm." Like whatever
that you're going in there
to look for, like they are a
company that helps you show
up, uh, within those LLMs,
which is really
powerful and obviously
powerful.
Okay, so tell me, walk us
through their, who their
target audience is and,
like, what stood out to
you about their messaging
Yeah.
And, uh, the reason I
bring them up, we use
them at, uh, Unify.
Um, they're, um, we're, uh,
we-- So we've been, um, I'm
actually not, I maybe I-
I've gotten access and gone
in once or twice, but we
actually have a, uh, like
a growth engineer on our
team, which is interesting,
who owns the platform,
uh, who's really smart.
Uh, real- like, um, I would
consider him like more
almost like a go-to-market
engineer who's, uh, running
and building, building
these kind of things.
So definitely a new world
role, role and like skill set.
Um, but, um, what
the… Um, sorry, I
forget the, where I was
going
Yeah.
So who, um, walk us through
their, like, target audience.
It sounds like maybe,
like, growth marketer maybe
could be the actual, um,
you know, target audience.
But then, like, tell, talk us
through the actual messaging
and, like, what's, what's
working really well with it?
yeah, so who Profound sells
to is, um, and partially
they're like creating their
own new roles, but really
I think the focus, like, as
you, like, look more, um, like
classically an organization
like content teams, um, PR,
brand, like folks that are
like h- helping you, like
show up with your content
in those, like any sort
of SEO analysts probably
will be moving, like having
this under their, uh, under
their purview going forward.
Uh, growth marketers
is another one that's
definitely, uh, like search
optimization, any of those
types of roles, digital
marketer even could kind of
fall into that, in that world
Yeah.
And then, um, if we look
at their messaging, so
I'm on their website right
now, tryprofound.com, and
I see kind of like a, um,
maybe like a rotating.
They have marketing agents
to win, and then it rotates
out the different LLMs, or
I guess like, at least like
the top most popular ones.
Um, and then it says, "Reach
millions of consumers who
are using AI to discover
new products and brands."
Yeah
you-- what's standing
out to you about their
Yeah.
And honestly, it's funny,
this is like the same thing
that stood out to me about
like in-- So like, you know,
I'm in SF, I'm walking by
like tech billboards every
single day, and like as a PMM,
I'm like, like I'm actually
like interested in these
things and like I'm like
entertained by
critiquing, right?
them.
I'm like always trying
to be into speaking.
Of course, I like wanna start
a LinkedIn series about this
eventually, but people hate
them and like it's a whole,
that's a whole nother like
can of worms of like people
hate the AI billboards.
But regardless, um, what
I like about, they have
stood out to me around like
this key point of clarity.
Like I think their messaging
is some of like the
clearest, like they aren't
trying to do too much.
Uh, I think like there's like
a spectrum in messaging of
like, like punchiness and
like creativity and like
clarity, and I really think
they do an excellent job of
just being explicitly clear
about something that's really,
really new, really com- like
complex, new, like you have to
like educate the entire market
on what this concept is.
They are doing that in a
way that's very just like,
"Hey, this is explicitly
what we do. We help marketing
agents to win in Microsoft
Copilot." Like, okay, like
yeah, that like piques my
interest of like, okay, you
are going to help me show
up in or like help me win in
those LLMs or specific tools.
So that like is something
that's consistently in
some of their just ads
and stuff have just like
impressed me on those fronts.
I l- yes, absolutely.
okay, so what's working
now, what do you think
is then maybe room for
improvement on some of this?
Yeah.
Um, I would just say like
to that point of like that
spectrum of like creativity
and like clarity, like there's
probably a room to be like
more like punchy potentially
on some of their branding of
like, um, we-- like even just
like a strong like manifesto
POV of like the future of
like, you know, for example,
like I think, and I'm just
going through the page, they
might have some of this, but
like so much of search today
is naturally just shifting
from Google and historical
sources to LLMs, and there's
probably like a, uh, arbitrage
opportunity to like be showing
up in LLMs right now in a
way that like will probably
will not exist in five years.
Like everyone will probably
have this figured out.
It'll be part of like the
generic marketing approach.
So this is like a new channel
that you can go out and
like be kind of like this
sneaky lever for you to like
have success in the market.
So I, I would say like leaning
more into like that of like
this like, oh, whoa, like
they're changing like the
way like-- they're like on
the forefront of like how
marketing is going to shift.
I think there's probably
an opportunity for that,
but they might be doing
that in other channels and
like maybe like founder-led
marketing and stuff like that.
But yeah, but I think there's
probably an opportunity to
continue to do that here too.
And then how would you
take it to the next level?
Like, if you were kind of
on the ground floor and,
like, taking the, taking
the good parts of their
messaging and, like, maybe
iterating or bringing it to
the next level, maybe even
implementing some of your
playbook, how would you, you
know, how would you coach
them on this to, to really,
uh, take it up a notch?
Yeah.
I think like, uh, a thing that
would probably be interesting
to understand, I'm just like
curious about that, like
just as a marketer, I'm very
curious, uh, about like how
they're thinking about this
role doesn't exist, and I
think they introduced like
a similar to like, uh, Clay,
like the, they have like a
marketing engineer or content
engineer title that they're
like leaning into right now.
But naturally, like not
a lot of those exist in
the world like today.
So like how are you thinking
about is obviously as
you're thinking about enter-
growing an enterprise,
you're gonna have to sell
to existing people who
haven't done this before
and aren't doing this today.
So how do you convince like
those folks to go out and
use a tool and do a practice
that they've never thought
about or done before, and
that you're the one to do
it with them, like, and
take them on this journey?
So it takes, I think it
takes a lot of like, it'll
probably take a lot of
education and I'm sure
they're doing a lot of, uh,
really good work of this.
I know like two of our team
attended like a conference
that they had a while back and
said it was really awesome.
Uh, but yeah, on that specific
point, like g- as they, I
imagine would be going up
market, I would like go out
and have like conversations
with like established digital
content, like marketing, SEO,
like whatever, like niche of
the marketing organization,
like a, like I would wanna say
legacy, but like maybe current
state marketing organization,
how might view this, who they
think should own it, who's
really best fit for it, what
skill sets do they need,
what about their product
like resonates today versus
doesn't, and like how do you
make like, 'cause you continue
to evolve both your messaging
and your prod- and positioning
to serve not, not only this
like new audience that you're
creating, but also this like
aspirational, like, hey,
this is where our business
is going and like we need a,
like a message that's gonna
resonate with those folks too.
Yeah, I really like the
aspirational angle, and
I think that mirrors to,
you know, what you were
thinking when you guys were
kind of moving upmarket
and, um, you know, re- um,
rethinking your narrative.
So okay, Profound, very cool.
Uh, shout out to
any Profound PMMs.
You've got some fans,
and also Quentin has some
really good ideas for
you, so check it out.
Yeah.
Very impressive
stuff over there.
So they're doing a great job
Absolutely.
Yeah, we love it.
Um, okay.
So Quintin, one thing I
like to make space for in
this podcast is a moment
of gratitude, um, 'cause
in product marketing or
marketing in general, none
of us get to where we are
in our careers without
learning from each other.
So just a big genuine thank
you so much for taking the
time to come on and share
your expertise on the show.
Um, I really appreciate it.
And then I'd also love to
turn it around, um, to you
and give you an opportunity
to shout out some PMMs who
have made a really big impact
on your career and brought
you to this moment to where
you are in your career today
Awesome.
Um, yeah, and
thank you for that.
Like, thank you for having me.
This has been so much fun.
It's been fun to go through
this process with you.
I love what you're doing
for PMMs out there.
Like we-- I think it's
gonna be like a, it's kind
of like a niche role and
sometimes isolated role in
an organization, so creating
community around this I think
is super important, and so I
love the work you're doing, so
keep
Oh, of course.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Let's hear those PMMs
yeah, gosh, so let's
get them together.
But, uh, the one I'll give
a shout-out to, there's so
many great ones in my…
So shout out to all of the,
all of the PMMs in my world.
But, um, one who actually has
recent- uh, departed the PMM
world, actually, uh, entire-
is now, um, entirely departed
to a different industry.
But regardless, um, uh,
Ani Golovko is her name.
She was our director of
PMM for a while at Ketridge
IQ, and she has, uh,
brought this really like
strategic, methodical,
like data-driven approach.
She came from the biz
ops world and like really
like brought on that
like research side of
like
The quantitative,
had historically, but I was
more focused on that readying
world for so long, and she
really like, uh, was really
a big proponent of like, in
order to like establish PMM
and like make like yourself
a strategic player and, and
a team, like you really have
to be like data-driven and
curious and, uh, uncovering
rocks and analyzing and like
doing these things without AI.
So, um, I've like
learned so much from her.
It was really-- Uh, she was
a really great, uh, manager,
leader and like, um, yeah,
we had, uh, so have so
much appreciation for that.
So shout out to Ani.
Oh, I love that.
It's so good to have those
mentors and coaches who
are, like, in the data
with you and, like, kind of
coaching you on how to, how
to look at it and view it.
So good.
Okay, last question for you.
Where else is it best to
access your expertise?
Is it just best to
find you on LinkedIn?
Yeah, feel free to connect
with me on LinkedIn.
I don't have a source
for my, uh, knowledge
or expertise yet.
Feel free to connect with
whatever knowledge and
expertise I can offer.
But yeah, happy to
connect with folks, chats.
I'm always interested
in talking, uh,
product marketing.
So yeah, feel free to
connect with me on LinkedIn
Awesome.
Sounds good.
Again, thank you
so much, Quentin.
This was so, so good.
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you liked this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful
if you would leave a review.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming on this
adventure with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.