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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
My dear friend, Padida, how are you doing today?
Padideh Jafari:I'm doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney:Good. It's Friday.
Padideh Jafari:I know. I'm so excited about that. I am so happy, and I'm not working this weekend. So I'm thrilled about that.
Jon McKenney:Even better. I'm visiting some friends this weekend, doing a little graduation thing, and hanging out with their kid who just graduated from middle school. So I'm really excited about that.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, that's so cute. It's so cute when graduate and they're that like young.
Jon McKenney:It is. You know, they got their whole lives ahead of them. You know, before the rug gets pulled out from adulting.
Padideh Jafari:Exactly. Exactly.
Jon McKenney:So innocent and cute and then.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Well, let's not tell them that at the graduation.
Jon McKenney:No, no, that's not a good graduation card, don't think. So we've got a really good topic today I'm really excited about talking about with you today. So what do you think about when those who are victims of narcissistic abuse, those who are basically being hurt by narcissists, when they get accused of actually being the abuser?
Padideh Jafari:I think it's a topic that's not talked about very frequently. And that's why I think it's important to talk about it on our show.
Jon McKenney:So I mean, are a couple of different reasons. I think that the abused actually get accused as being the abusers. One of the reasons, of course, is that narcissists often flip the script. They accuse you of what they're actually doing. So that's certainly a part of it.
Jon McKenney:Then there's this whole other thing where the victim may really be lashing out at the narcissist pretty aggressively. And that was kind of what I was thinking we ought to talk about today. The phrase for that is reactive abuse. Have you ever been in that position?
Padideh Jafari:Yes, I have. Actually, two things I want to say. The first is after many, many months of therapy, I was called the narcissist by my narcissist ex. And I thought, oh my gosh. And I started to list to him all the things that I was doing that was not narcissistic.
Padideh Jafari:And so that was number one. And then number two is I did act out at the very, very end of the marriage, which ended up in a big huge fight and actually ended up with him in handcuffs. So it does happen where a nice person can only take so much, right? And you've been beaten down for so many years that you do react. And then the interesting part about that is that most people don't realize that part of it.
Padideh Jafari:They take the abuser, the real abuser's side, because you've now reacted. And you've reacted out of character.
Jon McKenney:Well, and some of these narcissists, right, they're particularly the covert variety who are kind of hidden and back behind the scenes, take great pleasure in your public appearance or your public reputation being destroyed and you looking like you're the narcissist when actually you're not. So any reactive abuse and and let's let's reactive abuse. We need a definition for that. So you got a good definition for us?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, let me tell you a great definition I think that kind of highlights what this means. So reactive abuse refers to a situation where a victim of ongoing abuse reacts in a way that may appear abusive themselves. This term can be misleading, as it often labels the victim as an abuser when in fact they are responding to the abuse they have endured. It is more accurately described as a form of self defense, where the victim's reaction is a psychological survival mechanism to protect themselves from harm. In many cases, the perpetrator may provoke the victim to create a false narrative of mutual abuse, complicating the dynamics of the situation.
Jon McKenney:And the mutual abuse thing, right, is good for the narcissist because, again, they don't have to deal with the problem. Right? Well, you're doing it too. So Correct. You know?
Jon McKenney:So so that makes it okay. I I'm I'm okay because because you're doing it too. And when when ultimately, reactive abuse, you know, the it it is essentially the narcissist turning the victim into somebody who's a ridiculously angry person usually.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. Yes. That's a that's a great way to to say it.
Jon McKenney:So I would not I would not consider myself a angry person, but I could with her, especially towards the end, I could go from zero to 60 in a nanosecond because of it. So so tell me something for you and for others. How does somebody become one who who does reactive abuse, who lashes out like that? Because, again, out of character, I I I don't like being angry. I don't like raising my voice.
Jon McKenney:I I'm not prone to that. How does somebody how does somebody how do you think they become somebody who who delivers reactive abuse?
Padideh Jafari:Well, it's the battered wife syndrome, right, where, this happens over time, where you're trying to stay stoic, you're You're giving them the benefit of the doubt. Remember, you're in a relationship with this person. Hopefully, you're in love with them, correct? So you're giving them the benefit of the doubt. They're abusing you.
Padideh Jafari:It could be covert or it could be overt. And so after so many months and years and years of every time they screw up, you're trying to fix it. You're trying to mend whatever has been broken. And they maybe go to therapy with you and the therapist can't even see what's going on. And then they continue to push your buttons.
Padideh Jafari:And I consider myself a very, very nice person. And I pretty much lay down my life for my husband and my kids and my friends and family. But I have a point to where if you continue to keep pushing me
Jon McKenney:There is a line. Is a keep
Padideh Jafari:abusing me, you will basically snap. And that's what the reactive abuse is. You are going to snap. And before it gets to the final straw. So before you can talk yourself out of it or before you can call someone and say, no, this is going on, you snap.
Padideh Jafari:And once you snap, that's where the narcissist, the real narcissist, comes with a video camera. They're videotaping you. They're taking pictures. They're going, And they're so happy. And you can see it because they have this grin on their face.
Padideh Jafari:They're excited that you're showing them this side of you maybe that they've never seen. And so that's what becomes the reactive abuse. And so you look like the abuser. And they look like the victim in this. But there's an underlying thing here where they've created this scenario for you to react in such a way Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:That's not ordinary for you.
Jon McKenney:So so I I think you're absolutely correct. And you're and and, ultimately, when you react like that, you're giving them ammo to use against you.
Padideh Jafari:That's
Jon McKenney:that's that's the harder part of this. You're giving them you're giving them stuff that they can use against you to destroy you publicly or privately or in front of your family or friends or whatever it might be. It it's it's like, oh, look look what he did or look what look what she did. And and, ultimately, it's it it it doesn't help you, but it is natural, I think. And I I you know, in my own life, I was thinking about, you know, how did I get to that place?
Jon McKenney:How did I get to a place where I was that angry? Or and I and there were there were couple of things that that that came to mind. The first one is kind of a visual illustration of what I think reactive abuse is like. So if you had somebody who was stepping on your toe with all of their weight, stepping on your foot with all of their weight, and you'd give them the benefit of doubt at first, and you go, okay. Hey.
Jon McKenney:Could you move your foot? And they go, what do you mean? You go, you're standing on my foot. No. I'm not.
Jon McKenney:I'm not standing on your foot. Yes. You are. You're standing on my foot, and it hurts. And and they go, well, I I'm not standing on your foot.
Jon McKenney:And they go, look down. You're standing on my foot. And your voice begins to raise a little bit because that would be natural. And you go, you're you're not standing on my foot. I'm not standing on your foot.
Jon McKenney:I'm standing on your toe. We go, well, no, you're standing on my on my foot and my toe happens to be there also. In fact, so please move your foot. And they go, I don't know what you're talking about. It's not on your toe.
Jon McKenney:It's on your pinky. Well, whatever it is, get your effing foot off and finally you're you're you're in pain for one thing, because it hurts. And and then you're you've raised your voice to a point where it's like, I I need to get them off me and then they still don't get off you. So what's the next thing? You push them off of you.
Jon McKenney:And then they go, he hurt me, she hurt me. When when ultimately they were the one who did it. So you go through this scenario, you push them off you, and you're done with this. And then tomorrow, the same thing happens. And you go, you're standing on my foot again.
Jon McKenney:What do you mean again? I didn't ever stand on your foot before anyways. And it's not on there now. Well, yes, it is. No.
Jon McKenney:It's not. And it begins to escalate again. And what happens is it begins to escalate more quickly. So, so this is kind of the physical, a physical analogy, a physical description of, I think, what happens with reactive abuse only with a narcissist and reactive abuse. But but only these things are often emotional situations or or situational kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:They're not necessarily physical. So so it's kinda like somebody provokes you by hurting you, pretends it's not there, and can gaslight you in some ways that make it very difficult as well. Like, I'm not standing on your foot. I'm standing on your toe. We'll get off my toe.
Jon McKenney:Or I'm standing on your big toe. Right? We'll get off my big toe then. Well, I'm not standing on your big toe. I'm standing on your little toe.
Jon McKenney:We'll get off my little toe then. I'm not standing on your little toe. I'm standing on your middle toe. Get off of it. No.
Jon McKenney:I'm just pushing your arch to the ground on your foot. And and this kind of stuff can drive you nuts and put you in a place where you go you it escalates very, very quickly when these kinds of things happen. When you're having to deal with this word salad and pretending and all of that, they just they just don't wanna deal with the reality of the situation. You're trying to get them to deal with the reality of the situation, and and you're in pain. And, ultimately, the end result is a a violent response either verbally or it can be physical too.
Jon McKenney:What do you think about that? Do you think that's a good analogy of what's taking place?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, don't think I've heard a better analogy of reactive abuse because I'm reminded of a case that I had a couple of years ago where it was a restraining order case. And my client, it was a restraining order against her. And she said, I did do these things. And I said to her, why did you do these things?
Padideh Jafari:Why did you react or behave in such a way? And when she told me the full story, it was exactly this. It was like her ex husband continually provoking her and showing up to her house. They were separated at the time. They were trying this physical separation as some clients do before they file for divorce.
Padideh Jafari:And so she finally reacts to him coming there and coming to her place and destroying her peace. And so she reacts. And that's when he called 911. And the police showed up. And they arrested her.
Padideh Jafari:And so just from seeing her, I could tell John that she was not a violent person. She was actually very, very calm. I interviewed her parents as well just to get their side of the story because they showed up to the house to take care of this son when she was arrested. And it took three court appearances, but I was able to get the restraining order dismissed because I showed the judge that this is the reason why my client acted in such a way, basically. And he had said she had pushed him and scratched his eye, but there was no proof of that.
Padideh Jafari:So all that to say is, yes, it can escalate. And because you've been abused for so many years, it's like the breaking point, right? You just break. And they're continually denying it. So they're denying the reality that's happening.
Padideh Jafari:And you're just like, no, no, no, you're being hurtful. And the more they deny it, the more, as a victim, you want to prove like, no, this is actually hurting. This is actually hurting me. So it's only when you look at it from a different perspective that you realize, wait a minute, they were trying to bait you all along.
Jon McKenney:Actually, the denial thing is kind of where I wanted to go with the second one, I'm really glad you brought that up. Because that's a huge component in reactive abuse. And again, reactive abuse, I consider natural. Right? Somebody standing on your foot, you don't want them to stand on your foot.
Jon McKenney:As human beings on the whole, we want to avoid pain and chase pleasure. So if somebody's if somebody's hurting you, you you want them to stop hurting you, whether that's physical or whether it's emotional. Going back to the toe thing, you don't want somebody to stand on your toe. You don't want somebody to hit you. You don't want somebody to pinch you.
Jon McKenney:You don't want any of these kinds of things to happen. And when somebody does that, your first thought is, how do I get them to stop? I don't want to be in needless pain. So the denial component is big. Now, the part of that whole denial cycle, I think, comes in trying to pursue a healthy relationship.
Jon McKenney:So in healthy relationships, there is there's always conflict. You know, there's there are always conflicts to be resolved. That's just that's just life. There there's no such thing, I think, as relationships absent of some kind of conflict. And if they are absent of conflict, you will find somebody covering up mistakes.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, absolutely. So
Jon McKenney:understanding that healthy relationships do have conflict, the question becomes, how do you how do you keep the relationship healthy? So the way to keep the relationship healthy is to address conflicts, to own your own crap, to repent, apologize, ask forgiveness, extend grace, extend mercy, but to get the real stuff out in the open, dealt with, resolved, and settled. And I think the the word I'd like to use there is closure. You want closure, and you want an absence of of this felt weight of conflict in a healthy relationship at all times, especially in the most intimate of relationships, in husband and wife or boyfriend and girlfriend, I would say also with between parents and children as well. So we chase healthy relationship.
Jon McKenney:And those of us who may be emotionally intuitive enough or emotionally healthy enough, if there's a conflict or something's gone wrong, you've hurt somebody needlessly, you wanna say it. So let's say, you know, you're married and you have a conflict like I have a conflict with my spouse and I go, well, this really hurt me. I just want you to know what hurt you. Well, I just told you what hurt me. Well, no, it didn't.
Jon McKenney:I didn't do that. Well, yes, you did. You just did that. No, I didn't. And in them, when you ask a narcissist to face their failings, to face the behavior that they've done wrong, it's immediate denial.
Jon McKenney:Does not matter. So when you get this denial from them, you tend to escalate it. And I remember watching an episode of I Love Lucy back in the day, where Ricky had this old friend. Her name was I think it was Corlata Romero or something like that. And Lucy was jealous of this lady because they had her picture in the newspaper, and she was very buxom and beautiful and Cuban and all of that.
Jon McKenney:And she was afraid that Carlotta was going to come back and take Ricky away. So she winds up showing up at the apartment, and she's much older. So was actually Ricky's caretaker. So she's you know, in her sixties, and Lucy finds this absurd. But but Carlotta only speaks Spanish.
Jon McKenney:So she would go, well, how are you doing? And she goes, you know, no, and she'd she'd just start to speak louder. How are you doing? Can I get you some coffee? And she and instead of speaking to her in Spanish, she just raises her voice because she can't communicate to this lady.
Jon McKenney:And that's what it's like in reactive abuse. When you're you're trying to communicate with somebody who doesn't wanna deal with the situation and all they do is bring the denial, what you tend to do is escalate it with your voice. And I would tell my ex, excuse me, that it takes an explosion moment to get your attention. So you're just trying you're trying to pursue healthy relationship. You're trying to to to foster an environment of complete honesty where resolution lives, where closure lives, where intimacy thrives.
Jon McKenney:And the only way to do that is to air things out and to and to surface them in honesty and and bring them out on the table. And if you can't do that with somebody who who literally just pretends constantly, you tend to raise your voice, and you tend to get angrier, and you tend to get angrier. And where initially you want to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, and you may go, you know, you're you're pretending, and, I'd like to to talk about this. You go, no. I don't know what you're talking about.
Jon McKenney:So so you you eventually, in time, begin to escalate. You begin to raise your voice in what could be called reactive abuse. And the more that happens, the more quickly you go to just yelling because you may as well just cut to the end. Right? So if it's gonna take an explosion to get you to even respond to me, well, then let me deliver the explosion so that you are faced with this reality, and, ultimately, it it doesn't work anyways.
Jon McKenney:But but I think that's how it happens. You know? You you just talk louder and louder and louder and louder. When you can't communicate like this, like in Lucy, you just you speak far more loudly, and, ultimately, it looks kind of abusive, and you're destroying your own reputation because the narcissist would be happy, more than happy to tell anybody they know about how how how you abuse them. In fact, I will tell you this.
Jon McKenney:When when I first realized that my my ex had issues, I sent her to a therapist and I thought, you know what? She needs to go without me because she's got issues she has to deal with on her own, and I'm not sure that my being in the room is going to help. I gave her that benefit of the doubt. But I am certain now that what was actually taking place and how the therapist was counseling her was she would tell the therapist, I have just a very angry, abusive husband, and I don't know what to do.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, absolutely. That's absolutely what she said.
Jon McKenney:No, there's no question.
Padideh Jafari:There's no question.
Jon McKenney:And then the therapist, of course, with all rightness and all they have to take her word for where we start. And she start, Well, what does he do to you? Well, he just yells at me needlessly. I don't know what's going on. He accuses me of doing things that I just don't do.
Jon McKenney:And he starts yelling at me and I don't know how to handle it. And then again, you look like the abusive one. And they can do this not only with a therapist, but they can do this with your friends. They can do this with your family. They can do it with anybody.
Jon McKenney:And particularly if they're a covert narcissist, where they want to look like the saint to everybody else in the world, this is ultimately happening and they're bad mouthing you because they love it.
Padideh Jafari:Right. I think you said a couple of really good things. Communication, I believe, is so vitally important in a relationship and especially a marriage where you're living together, seeing each other through the good and the bad, the ugly, everything. And you cannot communicate with a narcissist because they just won't let you. Like you said, if you go to them and you want to say, you know, it really hurt my feelings that you did this, instead of sitting down with you and saying, what did I do?
Padideh Jafari:I want to make sure that I never hurt you again. I will change what I did or how I said it or my tone or whatever the situation is. With a narcissist that just doesn't work because their very first reaction is I didn't do it. You're wrong. You're too sensitive.
Padideh Jafari:They'll resort to name calling, you know, and they'll say, you know, this, this and this, right? Anything to deflect off of them because in their mind they're perfect and you are always wrong. So that communication, you're absolutely right. It never works. There's no also self reflection either.
Padideh Jafari:So they're not going to look at it like there's something wrong with them. They're going to look at it like there's something wrong with you, and you are just too sensitive. They're not about conflict resolution. So they're not going to take what you say and say, well, let me correct what John is saying because A) I love him and B) because I don't want to be fighting with somebody that I love. Right?
Padideh Jafari:They don't think of it that way. They use that as a weakness to use against you later. So it's actually everything that is illogical becomes illogical when you're in a narcissistic abusive relationship because there's no, like you had said this before in a different episode, there's no coping skills, there's no relational skills, there's nothing. And in fact, when they're in conflict with you, they like it. They like the chaos.
Padideh Jafari:Remember with my ex husband, I was like, I just want peace. Like I was a divorce attorney, so obviously my work was really heavy. And I was like, I just want peace in my house. I don't think that's a lot to ask for. But it was a constant conflict and chaos.
Padideh Jafari:Even when there wasn't chaos or conflict, he would manufacture it. And so I just realized, like you mentioned earlier on pleasure, I didn't want pleasure. I just wanted peace. Didn't even want pleasure. That was so incredibly unattainable.
Padideh Jafari:I just wanted peace in my home. I wanted to know that when I would come home, I would have a loving husband that just wouldn't constantly fight with me, bring things up that would trigger me on purpose. And when I mean trigger me, I'm talking about his daily pornography, his spending money unwisely. That's what I'm talking about. So you're absolutely right.
Padideh Jafari:And when you say, how did you get to this point? This is how seven years of being with someone and constantly being in this chaotic conflict just was the final straw.
Jon McKenney:That's absolutely it. And again, reactive abuse, natural in a sense, because you're being hurt by somebody. And imagine you were in a relationship for seven years. I was in one for twenty seven, right? And imagine being in a relationship that long and never being able to resolve anything.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:That that you want you want angry, you want you want conflict, you want a home without peace. It's and you want also a situation where you you go for it's like it becomes like a switch where you just flip from from peaceful to rage in an instant. You you put somebody in a situation where there's no closure and no resolution for decades and and you become that person. The second part of it, you said you said it's illogic. And and that's that's one of the other components to this reactive abuse because it doesn't make sense.
Jon McKenney:And while you're saying that, I thought of a I thought of a story where I was I was one day, was sitting at the dining room table with my dad. We were we were playing cards. We're card players, when he comes around to play a game called casino. It's a family game. So dad and I are playing casino and my ex came in.
Jon McKenney:She's my wife at the time. She said, hey, would you would you like some food? And I'm like, sure, you know, kind. We'll do that. Yeah.
Jon McKenney:I like some food. What would you like? I don't know. What are you thinking about making? She said, was thinking about making some macaroni and cheese.
Jon McKenney:I go, That'd be great. So I said, Just, yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate that whenever you're ready. So she said, okay, I'll go make it. Ten minutes passes, twenty minutes, half an hour, forty five minutes.
Jon McKenney:Dad and I are still playing cards. Finally, I got up and I went to the kitchen. I go, so what happened to the macaroni and cheese? And she yelled at me. I'm like, hold on.
Jon McKenney:Hold on. Hold on. Hold on here. Wait a minute. You were the one that offered to make this, and I'm just asking where it is.
Jon McKenney:And you're yelling at me? Again, no no logic here whatsoever. Okay? If you follow the breadcrumb trail, breadcrumb trail ends with you being the problem here. You said you were going to do something.
Jon McKenney:You volunteered to go do something, And and now you're blaming me and telling me that that I'm the problem and yelling at me because you didn't do what you said you were gonna go do. And it's constant illogic like this that also puts you in a position where you go from zero to 60 in an instant and you go from quiet, calm, collected to instant rage in a nanosecond because you can't handle the lack of logic in the situation. It violates everything, and it's really difficult.
Padideh Jafari:Right. You know, it's it's interesting because towards the end of my relationship, I didn't like who I was. I didn't like who I was becoming, and I didn't like who I And my mom, I remember she would say to me my mom and I have always been very close. I'm the youngest of four. And she would always say to me, I don't even recognize you anymore.
Padideh Jafari:And sitting here today, fifteen years later, it almost brings tears to my eyes because she said, I don't know who you are. You are this person's slave. You do everything he says. You don't talk, so I don't know what's going on with you. And you're constantly hunched over.
Padideh Jafari:Literally, my physical body was constantly hunched over because I was just so beaten down, John, that every part of me was just broken. And I would say to her, I don't know what you're talking about. I have such a great relationship. I have a great marriage. I have this great stepdaughter who I love.
Padideh Jafari:I don't know what you're talking about. And it was this constant denial because I was not ready. I couldn't even articulate what was going on. I'd never been abused. And so it really was that day where it was actually in the evening where this sort of reactive abuse happened by me.
Padideh Jafari:That was like the end of the end. It was like, I can no longer do this. And with my ex husband, he was also abusive physically, so it was all the things. And when I came to tell my mom months later, after we separated and everything, she said, I knew there was something wrong. Like, I knew there was something wrong, but you kept saying that you were happy.
Padideh Jafari:But I could tell that physically you were not well. And so you are absolutely right. It's really heartbreaking, even fifteen years. And so much therapy I've gone through even talking about this. But I know that it will help our listeners, so I'm willing to open up my sort of like the old wounds.
Padideh Jafari:But it is really, really difficult. When you go through reactive abuse and when you act like that, John, it's so contrary to how you usually are that you won't even recognize yourself.
Jon McKenney:I you know what? I felt I felt much the same way. You know, the the person I was towards the end of the marriage. Was so kind of opposite, like with her particularly was so opposite of. My character and who I and my personality, even who I was as a person, I found it very hard to endure just because I'm like, I was trying to like constantly trying to put me in a, you know, square peg in a round hole, I didn't fit.
Jon McKenney:I'm just not this angry person. I don't raise my voice hardly ever unless it's my local cable company and I'm trying to trying to get my cable back on. They push my buttons quickly as well. But
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I mean, that's different because, like, obviously, I'm a divorce attorney. I get upset. I get angry. I get sad.
Padideh Jafari:I go through all the emotions. When somebody is constantly pointing out flaws and creating chaos, it's like you don't even have a minute to sit and think about, how am I going to resolve this issue that's now come up again? There's constantly issues when a narcissist is in your life. They thrive on the chaos. I mean, I really want to make this clear.
Padideh Jafari:They thrive on the chaos. When I'm in court, I can see this very clearly when I'm battling a narcissist or the narcissist's attorney. They're constantly bringing up chaos. It's constantly one thing after another after another. And you're like, jeez, can I just put my pen down for a minute?
Padideh Jafari:Can I just think about how to resolve my client's divorce and get to a settlement? No, they don't want that. They absolutely don't want that. They like when it's chaotic. So I really want to emphasize that if you're in this situation where you're reacting and you're thinking to yourself, this is not who I am.
Padideh Jafari:This is not my character. This is not how I was raised. I wasn't raised to yell and scream and raise my voice. I wasn't raised like this. Just know that it's not you.
Padideh Jafari:This is an emotional thing you're going through. And your self defense like you're trying to defend yourself against this demon, this evil person. And so you're acting out of character. And once you get out of this type of situation, whether it's a relationship, marriage, daughter, mother relationship, whatever it is, once you get out of this, you will revert back to who you really are and who God created you to be, which is this loving, caring, trustworthy person that you were created to be that way, but for this demon in your life.
Jon McKenney:Let's talk about something. So we come up with this term reactive abuses has come up. And here I am saying, well, it's natural. It is, but is it abuse being delivered back and is it appropriate? And the reality is it is kind of abuse being delivered back and I think for those of us who are in those situations, we kinda need to own that as well that, you know, we were rage filled.
Jon McKenney:We were angry. And that these and not not only are these characteristics just not good, and they make you somebody who you're not. They're it's just not healthy for you to be that way. And the narcissist is going to use it against you on top of that. So so if you find yourself in that place, the question becomes, how do you how do you move from there?
Jon McKenney:And I'm wondering if you have opinions about that. I've got some thoughts because it it's still abuse. Right? Abuse delivered back. It's natural abuse.
Jon McKenney:Yes. You're standing on my foot, and you push somebody out of the way because they won't get off your foot. And there's there's a violence in that. So so what do you do?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I think it's different for each person. I think it's case by case, and I know that's a very lawyerly way of saying it. But I cannot tell you when it's appropriate for you to leave. I cannot do that, right? Because everybody comes from a different type of background.
Padideh Jafari:Everybody is sort of in this abusive relationship with their narcissist. And I tell my clients this all the time, John, because they tell me, I don't know if I'm ready. I just came in for a consultation. I just came to strategize with you. And I always tell them, I cannot answer that question for you.
Padideh Jafari:I just would hope that you would do it sooner rather than later because I know what can happen later, right? You could die. You could die of stress and anxiety. You can be killed by the narcissist. I mean, there's so many things.
Padideh Jafari:You could be further alienated from your child. Your child is witnessing this abusive relationship in the home. There's so many negatives to staying with a narcissist. But I don't know when that moment of realization is where you need to get out. I can just speak for myself that it was seven years.
Padideh Jafari:It wasn't always abusive. It wasn't everyday abuse. But the abuse was very dramatic. And it was very difficult towards the end of our relationship because my my ex husband had cheated. And I took him back, which is an absolute no no, by the way, if your spouse is cheating on you.
Padideh Jafari:To me, that's a full stop. But I took him back because I thought he was truly repentant. And those nine months when I took him back after that cheating, that's when it got worse. It did not get better. He felt like, Okay, this was sort of like his carte blanche to do whatever he wanted.
Padideh Jafari:Because if he cheats on you and you take him back, then he can do whatever. And so really, that last nine months was when the physical abuse happened. And I just knew I was kind of planning, strategizing, how do I get out one foot in, one foot out. And then the last incident for me was when he gave me a concussion. And I had separated our rooms.
Padideh Jafari:I'd put a lock on it and had the locksmith come and put a lock on my bedroom door. And he broke through it. And so the night that he broke through it, I just knew, Okay, he's either going to kill me or something really bad is going to happen. And, I was able to run out of my bedroom, get the keys, and run downstairs and call 911. And seven police officers showed up that night.
Padideh Jafari:He subsequently got arrested. So I can just tell you that it was seven years of abuse. So I don't know. I don't know what to say about this, because I really do think it depends on the person. But I would just say that you're not alone.
Padideh Jafari:There are people that will believe you. It's not everybody. Everybody's not going to believe you. But some people will believe you. And there is help out there.
Padideh Jafari:I'm highly involved with a place called Laura's House in Orange County. They help domestic violence victims become survivors. And so there is more help than there was twenty two years when I started my practice. But I would just say that you really need to sit down and reflect on when are you ready to get out of this abusive relationship.
Jon McKenney:Well, that's the end result, we all know that, of a relationship quote unquote with a narcissist. I mean, ultimately they don't work and clearly we can't make those kinds of decisions. But at the same time, there are going to be places where you have to interact with this person, where they're going to continue to gaslight you. There are a group of people out there who can't leave right now because of children. You know, it's not they they know it's not all about them.
Jon McKenney:And and they would rather take the bullet themselves with their spouse than leave the kids to somebody who's emotionally mismanaged. And there has to be another solution. And we talk about something called gray rock in narcissistic abuse also. And the analogy is where you kind of respond like a rock. You just kind you don't lash out.
Jon McKenney:You don't emote in any kind of way. You're flat. You're monotone. You don't challenge them. And my last two years, my last two years, I was able to do this in my relationship with my ex.
Jon McKenney:I was not I wanted to wait until my kids got all of them were in college before I left. And I did that intentionally out of love for them. And unfortunately or fortunately, I was able to kind of go figure this out. And this happened in a conversation with my therapist. She I was I was doing the kind of stuff I thought a husband should do.
Jon McKenney:You know, your spouse is off course, you want to go say, Okay, you know what? You're off course. And I can remember sitting in a therapy session and telling her about some of these conversations. And again, these conversations were ridiculously heated because they were explosion moment conversations going, this is happening. She's going, no, it's not.
Jon McKenney:It's not happening. No, it's not. It's not happening. And I just yell until she paid attention to it because I wanted her to pay attention to it. So I remember my therapist, Bridget.
Jon McKenney:And she said, I have a question for you. You tell me about these conversations, you're telling me about these conflicts, conflict isn't being resolved. And I want you to think back on these conversations for a minute. She said, can you point back to a single conversation that you had with her where you were able to help her understand or where you were able to get a good result. And I can remember sitting back and just thinking for a second.
Jon McKenney:It was quiet. And I go, No, not one. And she looked at me and she goes, then stop having these conversations. If they don't go anywhere, if you've got twenty five years of this and there hasn't been a single resolution, there hasn't been any conflict resolved, all it has been pretended away, then stop having these conversations. And that's part of the key to if you're in a situation where you have to go be with somebody like that, stop having these conversations.
Jon McKenney:And if you are forced to a situation where you have to where you're you're dragged into a conversation like this, you can be sometimes you act gray rock, you're emotionally disconnected. It's very hard to go do. I was able to do it the last couple of years. In in a sense, it almost felt like being single in a marriage, which is bizarre. It's a very weird way to kinda feel where you decide, alright.
Jon McKenney:I'm going to emotionally disconnect from this person and nothing they say is going to phase me. And I would respond flatline. I'd respond monotone. And ultimately, that was better for me. And I flat out told her I was going to do it.
Jon McKenney:There was a night I just said, look, we're not going to be close. Just so you know, I've made every effort. I've done everything I know to go do to try to be close to you. So I'm done trying. And I declared it to her and and lived it out for the following two years before we divorced.
Jon McKenney:But it was it was better. Is it a marriage? No. Is it a relationship? No.
Jon McKenney:Is it not heeded? Yes. Does it resolve conflict? Oh, hell no. It doesn't.
Jon McKenney:In fact, what you have to do is kind of suck it up and go, all right, it is what it is. There's no way for me to go change that. And that's all there is to it. So going gray rock, if you're in a relationship, can help. And and in gray rock is just completely emotional, emotionally disconnecting and not delivering any emotion to that person for their bad behavior.
Padideh Jafari:Right. I think once you stop fighting for the marriage, then it's already over. But I understand your strategic way that you did it for your children's sake, because you four children. Sometimes that is absolutely the correct way to do it. I'm just thinking
Jon McKenney:Well, some people don't have choices, right? Some people don't have choices. So they've got little kids they're committed to, and they would sacrifice themselves over the kids. Some are in financial situations where they can't get out immediately or they're working a plan or a strategy to try to get out. And that takes time as well.
Jon McKenney:So so there are a group of people who have to figure out how to go interact with these narcissists and not be seen as the reactive abuser. There are there are spouses out there who are divorced, who who still have to co parent with a narcissist and not act out like this. There are there are spouses of of husbands, wives of husbands who were narcissistically abused, and they have to learn how how not to to lash out and not to reactively abuse towards these these people. So I mean, just because you get out doesn't doesn't mean the reactive abuse necessarily ends. You have to figure this out at some point in time how to how to deal with this narcissist because you are going to have to interact with them again.
Jon McKenney:Now, I'm in a situation where all my kids are out of the house and I don't I don't really have any contact or any conversation with her whatsoever. But there will be weddings one day. There will be family things that I have to be at that, you know, where we have to interact and I and again practiced. It's you got to just completely emotionally disconnect and communicate in a way that you don't emote.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And you don't take the bait, right? You don't take the bait.
Jon McKenney:Oh, yeah.
Padideh Jafari:You know they're going to say something to try and trigger you. But the more and more and more therapy you have and the more self reflection you have and the more journaling you do, and healing and recovery, you will realize that this is not about you. This is about them and their mental disease and disorder, and that you have to just, like John said, just keep it moving. And do not take anything personal. And they will do it to every victim.
Padideh Jafari:Every person in their life, they will do this to. So you're absolutely right. That's great advice. I just think that this is such an important topic because
Jon McKenney:Really is.
Padideh Jafari:As we're talking about narcissistic recovery, this is part of the recovery phase that you forgive yourself for acting out of character when you know you would not do that normally. And I have to tell you, it took me years to forgive myself. Because as a Christian woman, I was like, did I make this happen? Did I do something for this person to react? Was it Okay that I called police officers that night?
Padideh Jafari:It took me so many years, John, just to forgive myself for the reactive abuse that happened one time in seven years. So you do need to forgive yourself because that's part of the healing and recovery portion so that you realize, you know what? I'm not that person. So that's sort of what I want to say imparting that you need to forgive yourself for how you behaved.
Jon McKenney:You know, you did more than you did more than forgive yourself in this. And and the other thing that I think you did in this that was so important was that you owned it. You owned where you were. You owned your piece of this. And reactive abuses is something I think that for your own health, for your own own emotional well-being, you need to own.
Jon McKenney:Okay. Well, this this is how I responded. I can remember going in to have a conversation with my pastor, with my ex one time, he said, Well, why are you here? And my first words out of my mouth, I'm angry. I just started with that.
Jon McKenney:And it's good for you to own where you're at and to own your own situation so that you can heal, too. I think there's healing. There's not complete healing until you own your own situation as well. And no, it's not healthy. No, it helps you.
Jon McKenney:No, it doesn't help you. Yes, it's natural. But that's not an excuse either. You know, ultimately, you want to be a people of peace. We all want to be people of peace, hopefully, and I want to respond in such a way that's peaceful and at least chase peaceful solutions wherever possible.
Jon McKenney:Unfortunately, with narcissistic abuse, that's not always it's just not always possible. But the reality is you have to own your own shit as well. And like Padeeta said, forgive yourself. And if you can find it in yourself to begin to practice not not lashing out and not responding and practice this gray rock emotional disconnect. So good conversation today, Padeeta.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, thank you so much. I really hope that it helps our listeners.
Jon McKenney:I hope so too. You know, because this is this is a very difficult topic, and, so many of us, have been through it or are going through it. It it really is helpful to to be able to go try and and understand these things together. So we hope you have a wonderful day and that you've enjoyed the time with us. You can find us online at the narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com.
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