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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. So this is actually part two of episode five.
in our previous episode, we talked right up until that pool scene in episode five, and we're going to delve a little bit deeper into the remainder of the episode. I felt this was really important because there is so much to this episode and there is so much to talk about.
that both Declan and I had like upteen amounts of notes on this.
Declan (00:28)
100%. Yeah, it was so hard to decide because this is such a densely packed episode and yeah, we just had to break it up a little bit.
Silvan (00:38)
Yeah. And so where we're at the episode is the hotel scene where Shane comes to Ilya's room.
Declan (00:46)
Well, first of all, have you all noticed the complete lack of sex in this hotel visit? There is, because it's no longer the main focus of their relationship. That's not the most important thing. And you will notice now, the rest of the show, that the amount of upfront sex that you see is massively reduced, because it's almost become a private thing.
Silvan (00:56)
You're right.
Declan (01:12)
So it has because it's become a lot more personal, a lot more emotional and a lot more serious. Now, what did you think about Shane immediately getting into it with Ilya the conversation?
Silvan (01:27)
Can I add to that before I get into it?
I agree. There's less focus on the sex, but in a way it feels just as intimate, if not more intimate now.
Declan (01:39)
Yes, and I think I felt more voyeuristic in this episode than I did in the ones in which they were just having sex because we get a very emotional moment between Shane and Ilya. Obviously, Shane goes on here. He is all business. Like he has a new sort of confidence in himself. And I think this is a result of him being able to come out to Rose. He is able to go on here and decide that he wants to start this discussion. Now it's time to talk about the feelings.
So it is, there's no more denying it. There's no more denying this dynamic between them. And Ilya is sort of still in denial mode. Like when Shane brings up the conversation, he's like, like, I can't, I can't keep pretending that I don't like you. she, Ilya is like, you don't like me. He's like, no, I do. And it's like, God, God. And it's, I think at this point, Ilya is losing control.
of the situation and you can see that in his sort of the following part of the conversation where he talks about his mother and then he has that emotional breakdown. He starts crying and it switches then from a sort of an argument and discussion to Shane comforting Ilya in a very vulnerable moment and that's when it was like it was almost voyeuristic. I'm like, ⁓ this feels a bit personal. can I can I
kind of maybe you should give them a bit of privacy in this. And then the camera cuts away. literally, the narrative is that you do as the viewer then let them have privacy then to have that moment. cut away to after they probably already had sex and Shane is getting ready to leave. But the way in which Jacob Tierney decided to frame that whole segment is just, it's.
Silvan (03:10)
Isn't?
Declan (03:31)
a great way of showing that they've now transitioned and they're at a different stage in their relationship and that this show is no longer going to be focusing on the sex, it's now going to be the focus on the emotional relationship developing between these two people who are falling in love.
Silvan (03:47)
Yeah, and I think it's so interesting that you comment on this voyeurism because we have no problems watching them have sex. We have no problems watching the smutty bits. In fact, we like it. I mean, let's be honest, you know, and maybe we're all just really preconditioned to watching corn. I don't know. But where it becomes really raw and really intimate is where it feels like, oh, this feels a bit, it feels intrusive now.
And it's almost like we're not allowed to view this aspect of the intimacy where they're getting this. It's interesting that you talk about sort of Shane's confidence coming into the scene because Ilya doesn't know he's had this whole realization with Rose and this whole conversation rather. And so to him, everything's...
gravy. Everything's like continue as normal, right? Like repeat, pause, go on. But when Shane enters the room, initially you can see he's stiff, like his hands are in fist, he walks straight in, he sits to himself on the bed. And I don't know if you noticed, but Ilya doesn't move towards him. Ilya stays on the opposite side of the room. He knows something's up.
Declan (04:56)
Yeah, he's looking at him like he's a
dangerous animal. Yeah. And he asked the question, oh, am I going to be trouble or a something along those lines? He knows exactly that. Chains in here and he sort of means business. needs that like there's song that he wants to talk about. it's such a and Shane does it in the only way that she can, which is to walk in like a robot and be like, right, we're doing this. This is going to happen. We're going to talk about this.
Silvan (05:00)
Something is up.
right? And the way Shane was like, I'm gay. And I love Ilya's reaction to this. I don't know how you felt, but his look was like no shit. Like really?
Declan (05:31)
It's so him. It's so him. It's also a way of him showing Shane that like, it doesn't matter to me that obviously, like, I know. But it's also, yeah, it's probably not the reaction that Shane was looking to get out of him. He was probably expecting a little bit of, he was expecting a little bit of Rose. Ilya is not Rose.
Silvan (05:50)
Right?
It is the opposite of Rose in some ways because you're right he is probably expecting that sort of warmth and hand holding and it's gonna be okay kind of thing but it is like yes so what like you're gay whatever like we still fuck like what's the difference and and that's what he gets in return but what I really appreciate about this scene is now it's Shane who's being emotionally vulnerable.
Declan (05:54)
⁓ exactly.
Yeah.
Silvan (06:18)
Whereas in the previous episode, see Shane we see Ilya rather, you know, really trying to be vulnerable in his own way and he gets shot down, you know.
Declan (06:26)
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of the hesitation that Ilya has as a result of that sort of shutting down and which, you know, Shane has made him a little jaded now because he opened up before and he got really hurt as a result. And just because Shane's ready now doesn't necessarily mean that Ilya is. Like Shane's caused a little bit of damage here that he needs to fix and he needs to repair it. And thankfully it does happen. Ilya does then.
have that moment whenever she's being so vulnerable and so open with him. Ilya is finally able to have a moment of like cathartic sadness to share with Shane. And it comes in the form of him talking about his mother, which I thought was a very sweet moment. it's whenever Shane is like, when the tear just starts tracking down his face and Shane notice it, he's like, ⁓ okay. No, no, no, no, it's okay. Like this is.
I'm here, it's alright, it's fine, I'm here to comfort you. That for me was one of the best moments. It was so sweet. It felt like such a reward for everything that they've been going through. This whole subplot in terms of their characters being unable to relate to each other and be able to emote properly. And for Ilya, the one who is seemingly the most stoic out of the two, the one that pretends he has no feelings at all throughout most of the show.
is the one to actually break and the one that needs the comfort and needs the comforting and it's a little clue into the kind of pain in which Ilya is actually going through These aspects of Ilya that make him so vulnerable. He's not quite the
put together person that you might imagine in the show. You can see that moment of vulnerability between him and Shane. I think it's very important to establish Shane's role in that now. He is the comforter. He's the one that's there for him. He has an understanding of him and is able to hold him whenever he needs held. And that's a great dynamic to start.
Silvan (08:31)
I think you're right. However, where I think I differ is I was a little hesitant when the scene progressed because yes, you know, we get this confirmation that Ilya's mother is dead and his father definitely has dementia. He says it out loud. And then, you you get this, this looking away from Ilya can't, he can't show that side, that vulnerability, but Shane notices. But then do you notice that Shane straddles him? And I'm like, hang on a minute. Where is this going to go? Because
in the previous scene where they're having, when they're on the couch in Ilya's apartment and they're having this very tender, sweet moment, Shane then starts caressing Ilya's thigh and then it ends up becoming a section where I was like, please don't do this. He's just said his mother is dead. Do not do that. And I was really worried that it would. And I'm interested in what the choice of that hold is because, you know, Ilya sat, you know, being the strong person.
And Shane straddles him, let's be honest, because that's what he does, but he hugs him. And there is a sense of comfort here. But there's this juxtaposition of the positioning they've chosen to have these two characters in that I'm not sure I'm gelling with. maybe it's because I don't understand why they've chosen this. But Shane is comforting Ilya, but Ilya is still holding strong.
Declan (09:52)
I got a different read of it. So up until this point, the sex has been used as a distraction from the emotional elements of the story, but it's now being changed. The sex is now an emotional comfort between the two of them. It's now an expression of their love and affection for one another. It's a way of them expressing how much they care and love each other, which is
of what sex is supposed to be whenever you're in a long-term relationship. So what does that signify? In my experience, it's an expression of your love and affection for your partner. this is the thing. Shane is choosing now to use the sex as a form of comfort for Ilya, which for me signifies that their relationship status has changed a little bit here.
Silvan (10:21)
I wouldn't know.
Declan (10:45)
This is no longer, he's not doing that for his own pleasure. So he's not, he doesn't seem to be doing it as a distraction. He seems to be using it as a method of comfort. And that for me, recontextualizes now how sex is viewed in the show where it's no longer a thing that they do to distract themselves from their feelings and to just get off. It's now an expression of their emotions and feelings towards one another. I think that's the sort of transition that's
gone on through out this sort of new version of their sort of sex relationship.
Silvan (11:21)
I like that you articulate it like that. And I like that we can have differences in this because what you've articulated is when I've seen countless other TV shows and movies where there's a very emotional height and scene and there's an argument, for example, and then these two characters end up making out and having sex. I'm like, hang on a minute, hang on a minute. Why? Why are you having sex when you are just having this emotional beat here? And maybe, yeah, I can see where you're coming from. think for me,
Declan (11:39)
I'm supposed to be crying.
Silvan (11:51)
Maybe it's the psychology in me. It's just not the way I would embrace somebody when they're being so vulnerable. They just said something so raw. But I can see why, you know, the transition to sex being a comfort rather than sort of a satisfying the id from a psychodynamic sort of point of view comes into play here. I still wouldn't have chosen to comfort him like that, though. I'm just going to say.
Declan (12:13)
Mm.
Yeah,
I think it suits them because this is all that they know at this point in time. Like there will be better tools to use later down the road, but because so much of their relationship has been physical and so much of how they express their way that they communicate a lot is thorugh sex. Like you think back to the hotel whenever they were having that sort of sub dom dynamic going on, that again was them communicating back to each other. It's it's it is a form of communication for the two of them.
And so Shane choosing that moment then to have sex with Ilya to offer him a moment of comfort and a moment of sort of release and emotional catharsis. That seemed to be for me anyway, a way of Shane expressing his love and care for Ilya without having to like verbalize it in that sense, because they're still at this point not able to verbalize the love that they have for one another.
which we will get to in this episode, but it's appropriate. think that they, that Shane uses this tool that has sort of brought them together in the first place and sort of given it a new purpose, given it a new meaning and a new directive, which is to be a tool of comfort and affection and love, even though they're not willing to use those words yet.
Silvan (13:41)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. You talked about Ilya's mum and, you know, we get confirmation that Ilya's mum is dead. And then in the next scene, we get this very cutaway scene where then we find out Ilya's father has passed away rather suddenly. ⁓ I want to hear your thoughts because I have like literally three pages of notes on the scene alone.
Declan (13:47)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Silvan (14:10)
I want to get your impression about how they use this cutaway scene because they don't tell you initially, you know, they just cut away and then we find out through Shane and the locker room kind of thing.
Declan (14:23)
Yeah, it's, I think it serves two purposes. First of all, it means that as a viewer, have no idea how Ilya feels at the moment, which adds an element of mystery to it. adds a bit of, you know, tension to like when we come back to him, we go, what's it going to be like? How is he going to react to this? How is he going to react to Shane? Like what's going to happen? It opens up a whole, a whole load of like things that make you anxious to want to find out what happened.
On the other side, also is a way of establishing how the relationship between Shane and Ilya has changed. All of a sudden, people are saying, well, he could be sick, could be fine. No, he's not. He's not. No, I know all these things about him. I know exactly where he is. I know what he feels. I know if he's injured or not. have basically every element of his life down to a T. I know exactly what's going on with him.
So clearly there's no change in the dynamic where they are a lot closer than they were before. And also the decision to have Shane call him, which is a big change in their dynamic. He calls him, he video calls him. Like that was not something that they previously did. then curiously they took it to the scene where, you know, Shane
calls Ilya and it turns into almost like a bit of sex thing or ⁓ yeah and it's like hmm are we going back to this is this what's gonna happen like is this thingy but again if you take my read of their previous sexual interaction I think that for Ilya is a form of comfort to have that moment with Shane because he can't physically have him there and it's a moment of sharing and caring that they've now established
But then because Shane is not there, you can't get the full experience. So then you follow it up with the actual final communication, even though they put a nother Barrier in the form of that communication by having Ilya speak in Russian. Yeah, there's layers. There's so many layers.
Silvan (16:25)
And
yeah, and even before we get to that amazing monologue, even the way, because it's a phone call initially and then it turns into a video call from what I remember. And even in the phone call, yes, Shane does call Ilya first and Ilya's very matter of the fact, literally, and I wrote this down. says, you know, Shane asks, how are you doing? He's like, you know, how's your father? Whatever. And he's like, yes, dead. It's very blunt. It's very emotionless.
And as somebody who belongs to the dead parent club, unfortunately, I'm really critical of when a TV show or a movie uses a dead parent as a plot device. I think there are lots of shows that do it really wrong and some that have done it very well. But I felt in this moment, I'm like, this isn't what I was expecting. This isn't the reaction I was expecting, especially when Ilya then, you know, sort of
morphs the scene into sort of a more sort of sexting video call kind of thing. And I think for me, where shows like, and I don't know if you ever watched the summer I turned pretty. So that show I think does a horrible job at depicting and spoiler alert, if you haven't watched it, please pause now, skip the next 10, 20 seconds. But that.
Declan (17:35)
No, not yet,
Silvan (17:48)
show does a horrible job at depicting grief and death of a parent. And I'm very critical when it comes to this because yes, I know it's a TV show, I don't expect complete realism, but there's this initial Ilya's reaction is very blunt and I don't get it. And we see it later. And I'm like, okay, now I know why we see it later because they're building up to this. And that makes sense.
Declan (18:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. The read I got from it and I've had people pass as well in my life. ⁓ Not a parent so I can't imagine that must have been very, very hard, very, very tough. can imagine what that would feel like. What I could picture is if you are the provider, if you are the one that is the responsible one and
everything is sort of put on your shoulders. In moments of crisis people turn to you and you are not allowed to permit yourself that breakdown. So you're not you're not allowed to express that grief yet. You're not allowed to you know fall apart. You're just not allowed to. It's not the time. You have to keep it together and if you are a member of a family in which
those kind of pressures are put on you, you would be the kind of person that would repress what you're feeling at that moment in time to be practical. And that seems to be what Ilya's done here. He is in full on ⁓ get things sorted mode. He is all business. He is organizing the funeral. He is organizing all the stuff, the will the ⁓
like the arrangements for his brother, his brother's family. And it's only whenever his brother confronts him that he just can't, the rage just takes him over. can't, he has to express something and his brother has just made himself a target very easily. The brother's a dick. And that moment in time to be asking him about, like I can imagine
Silvan (20:06)
correct.
the house or the apartment
Declan (20:10)
Frustration?
Silvan (20:10)
or something.
Declan (20:11)
Yeah, the apartment? What's gonna happen to us now? what, The frustration I would feel that if I was doing all this setting aside my feelings, my emotions, my grief, all to make just this day work to get it done. And then you're useless fucking leech of a brother then coming up to you in the middle of it and complaining that
you haven't sorted out my family, you haven't done this, you haven't done that. I would tear heads off. I would lose my shit and Ilya does. And it's only for the fact that Svetlana steps in and is like, what are you fucking doing? Why are you, what are you doing here? Like, why are you talking to him like this? Cause she is there with him. She's taking him through it. She is sort of the emotional support that Ilya has while he's in Russia and he has no one else. And I like that moment of like love that they share between each other. But I think
It's very telling that wherever it's done, the funeral's happened and Ilya steps outside and he calls Shane and then, then he lets it go. He lets the floodgates go.
Silvan (21:17)
Yeah.
And even before that point, I think you're right. think someone who's had to do this, know, Ilya is planning a funeral essentially abroad because he's in the US and so planning a funeral, organising everyone, you know, it takes such an emotional toll on you that having to do this whilst you're in transit probably is probably the hardest thing because you're not even connected to people that you can grieve with.
You're alone in your grief. And there is a period where you're in organizing mode, you know, you're planning the funeral, you're getting people together and all that kind of stuff. And I think you're right. think Svetlana is the right character to be able to intervene in that altercation between Ilya and his brother, but in a way that supports Ilya and his emotional need then. Because you're right, his brother is a dick.
Declan (21:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (22:15)
And I think Svetlana does that really carefully. And again, this is where I see these parallels between Rose and Svetlana. They have this emotional intelligence to them that the boys just don't have.
Declan (22:26)
Mm-hmm, 100%. Yeah.
And her reaffirming her love for him, like, know I love you. You know, that's, he needs to hear that from somebody because right now his family don't give it to him. And I don't think they are really dead. Yeah, exactly. Like he's essentially disowned his brother. So he has, like he said, I will look after my niece or nephew or whoever it was. That's it. Like you can go screw yourself. Like you're dead to me as well.
Silvan (22:41)
Well, he doesn't have family.
Yeah.
Nice.
Declan (22:56)
And Svetlana then picking that moment then to say, Jane's a lucky girl It was absolutely time.
Silvan (23:01)
Well, actually, and I don't know if this is in the
100 % degree, and I don't know whether it was the subtitles on what I watched that said it, but the actual wording is actually, I just hope Jane knows how lucky he is. And I don't know if that was on yours as well.
Declan (23:17)
Oh
no, I don't think I can.
Silvan (23:20)
Yeah,
that's what I got on the Russian English subtitles switch and where I watched it. And so was like, hang on a minute. Do we actually get confirmation that Svetlana knows Jane has been one a man, but then to Shane this whole time?
Declan (23:33)
It's shame, yeah.
Well, she's obviously aware that Ilya is bisexual anyway, because she knows of the relationship between him and the coach's son that we've seen in the previous episode. But I like that she is almost saying in that interaction, it's like, I love you and I know you love me, but I think you might feel better talking about this with Jane, i.e. Shane, and see how you feel whenever you speak to them about it. And
Silvan (23:47)
Sasha.
Declan (24:08)
It's kind of like her being like, I ⁓ will always be here to comfort you, but I don't think I'm the right person to comfort you at this moment in time. And that's such a beautiful moment.
Silvan (24:15)
And
it is, but this is where, and similar to Rose, this is where my heart breaks for Svetlana. Because she is the one who was, I think they've grown up together, I think they allude that they've been growing up together. And she is the perfect person to be there at that time for Ilya. But for whatever reason, Ilya doesn't need or want Svetlana right then. He needs Shane.
Declan (24:28)
Yeah, I've had a chance with friends, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (24:45)
And
as a secondary character who is the right person to do that for him in this time of grief, that broke me. was like, shit, she knows him so well that she and she loves him so much that she can step aside and let someone else come in and be that for him.
Declan (25:06)
Yeah, that's the thing. She loves him so much and knows him so well that she knows that she's not the right person to comfort him because there is more than just the grief of losing his father that he's dealing with. It's also this complicated relationship that he has with Shane and she has the awareness and the emotional intelligence to figure out that I'm not the right person for this. But also she's been aware of this for a while.
Silvan (25:31)
Hmm.
Declan (25:33)
Like she knows that their dynamic is very easy come easy go and that their friendship is honestly the priority in all of this. ⁓ Like you do get those conversations between them, like I'll always love you, but I don't think I'm like the right one for you. Like that's, you get sort of hints of conversations like that between the two ⁓ where she's quite okay with the fact that there seems to be like somebody else that he sleeps with. Like it's very casual.
but their friendship, obviously that's what she seems to be reaffirming in all this. like, may not be romantically together, but I will always love you as an, will always love you in terms of like a friend or family or, know, whatever way you want to interpret it. But she knows that the type of love and comfort and affection that he needs right now can't come from her.
Silvan (26:22)
or that he wants it from someone else is what I'm getting.
Declan (26:25)
Yeah, that's also true. ⁓ Yeah, sorry, Svetlana it's just not for you. I'm sure you'll find someone extremely good looking and gorgeous to replace Ilya ⁓ But for now, you'll just have to fluff it up.
Silvan (26:31)
Yeah. ⁓
Nothing.
Yeah, you talked about the the monologue, ⁓ Ilya's monologue in the tunnel earlier, and I think I cut you off because I was like, wait a minute, we have when I'm not ready, I'm not ready to go there yet. Like with this little daddy stuff that we need to get through before we can get to the monologue. And I don't know what your subtitles are like, so I hope mine are accurate. And if they aren't, please let me know if they're not. But I'd like to read the monologue to everyone and then I'd like to
Declan (26:52)
Thank very much. ⁓
Silvan (27:10)
to break this down because it's a beautiful piece of writing. So obviously I'm not going to do it in Russian guys, like I'll say it in English obviously. I mean if Connor's story can pick up Russian in a week, know, anyone can, right? So I know that's a whole different conversation. So Ilya's monologue in English is, I never want to come back here again. I fucking hate it here. And they all fucking hate me.
Declan (27:18)
like you can do in Russian.
Silvan (27:40)
I pay for everything. I make sure everyone has clothes they like. I make sure the food is perfect. That father is buried next to his parents. That their tomb is perfect. And the only fucking word I ever hear is, I want more Ilya. I need more Ilya. More, more, more. And I have nothing for these people. I give them everything. But I feel fucking empty. They don't care.
They look at me and they see a bank or an enemy or I don't even know what. My brother has always hated me and I know why. But it kills me and it kills me that he took care of my father and I didn't. But I couldn't. I wasn't here. I still paid for it all and he will never forgive me for any of it, for existing. It means I have no one now. Well,
Not no one. have Svetlana. She loves me and I love her. But not like, fuck me, but not like I love you. That's the worst fucking part of all of this. That all I want is you. It's always you. I'm so in love with you and I don't know what to do about it.
Declan (29:03)
Shit. ⁓
Silvan (29:04)
Huh.
I think give Conor's story all the awards. I know they're not eligible for Emmys. They're not eligible for Emmys, which is stupid rule, but give him all the awards because the way he delivers that as a non-Russian speaking person, you, right? Like he conveys everything. And even though I was reading the subtitles, I was in it. I felt everything.
Declan (29:13)
and all of the end. That's stupid.
What?
so like master class in acting. Like the emotion behind his voice, was breaking at the right moments and it was just, it just tore at the heartstrings. was, God, it was really, really, really intense and emotional and very overwhelming in a lot of ways. And there's so much in what he says, like, and very, very curiously.
You do not get this monologue in the book. You don't get it written down. So in the book, basically Shane does the same suggestion. Why don't you just speak in Russian and, ⁓ you know, just rant, just rant, but you don't actually get to hear what Ilya rants them about. ⁓ he just speaks Russian on the phone for however long. then at the end, Ilya reveals that, you know, he said the words in Russian. end with.
Silvan (30:11)
Really?
Declan (30:35)
I'm so in love with you I don't know what the fuck to do about it. That's the last part you get, the confession of love. That's the only part that actually translates it. You don't get to hear any of rest of the monologue. And I'm so fucking glad that Jacob Tierney decided to expand that out, to actually include that as part of the scene. Because what you get in its place is just him bleeding his heart out. And it's so...
Silvan (30:40)
Interesting.
Declan (31:03)
It feels like we've been building up to this, this moment of Ilya's true vulnerability. Finally letting us get an idea of how he's feeling and how he's thinking and what he is getting out of all this.
Silvan (31:16)
And I think you're right. I think that this could only have happened in his native language because as somebody who speaks two languages, it's multiple actually. What a flex, right? It's only like three or four. As someone who speaks multiple languages, it's so hard to think in your native language and then have to translate. And there are sometimes no words in the translated language that equate to what you're trying to say. And you can see this frustration in him. And that's where I think
Declan (31:28)
sorry, I'm sorry.
Silvan (31:46)
You know, like you said, Shane beautifully just says, say it to me in Russian. I'm not going to understand, but it might make you feel better. And I think there's this outpouring. And I think for me, I know I was very critical of the way Ilya sort of responded to sort of us finding out he has his father has died in the previous episode in this episode in the previous in part one. But this is this is where I was. This is what I was looking for initially from him.
Declan (31:53)
Yeah.
Silvan (32:16)
It's the whole part where he's like, it kills me that I didn't take care of my father bit and my brother did. Because as somebody who lives away from their parents, who isn't there to provide the physical support, that's what sticks with you. That's what's going to haunt him for years to come. The fact that he wasn't there, the fact that he couldn't be there, yes, he was working, sure. But the fact that he had this longing, no matter how...
Declan (32:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (32:44)
abusive or critical his father was, he is his father's son at the end of the day.
Declan (32:50)
Yeah, they have a very, very complicated dynamic and that makes it a lot harder.
Silvan (32:57)
And I think the thing about grief and specifically grief over losing a parent is that it fundamentally changes you at your cellular core. there's some, there's a shift that happens and I don't know how to explain it. And if any of you who are listening or watching have lost a parent,
I am so sorry that you've had to go through that, and maybe you can share whether this happened to you, but there is this shift that happens, and it changes you fundamentally as a person.
Declan (33:31)
Yeah, I can imagine because so much of who we are as people is tied up in how our parents brought us up and how we've been raised and so many of our qualities, whether they're good or bad, come directly from them and their influence.
think there's always a desire to make your parents want to be proud of you, to live up to their expectations and what they want. And to bring it back to Ilya he never truly felt like he was ever meeting his parents' expectations, at least his father's. I he didn't know about his mother. knowing that his father would have went to the grave not being able to be proud of him.
Holy shit. what would that do to you as a person? Like that being completely unable to undo what he perceives to be a mistake is incredibly difficult to deal with. massively massive just obstacle to overcome in your life. is it's trauma. So what is it? It's on that would stick with you, that would linger with you and in the back of your head. And so
When you have all this going on and a brother as well, his only other family remaining who is completely unsympathetic towards him, who as Ilya says, hates him and always has hates him. And I know why he hates me. He hates him because he's bi. He hates him because he's bisexual and that he sleeps with men. And again, that's another fundamental thing that Ilya can never change. He cannot change the relationship with his brother. He cannot change the relationship with his father and he cannot change the way in which his father's last days were lived.
because he had to provide, he had to be the one out there making the money, sending it home, ensuring that they had their comfort while he had to rely on a brother who hated him and wasn't interested in looking after his father. All while Ilya is dealing with all the emotional turmoil of trying to keep his relationship with Shane secret. Like how much more shit do you need to put on somebody's plate? Honestly?
Silvan (35:45)
mean, have you read A Little Life? There's a lot more. I know you have read A Little Life. But I think you're right. And I think in a way what death and grief does, it reprioritize things for you. Things that weren't important, things that you felt were important become not important and things that were very important sort of become sort of clearer. And I think that's what we get at the end of this monologue. It's the
Declan (35:49)
started on Netflix. I have read a little like
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (36:14)
I love you, it's always been you, I'm so in love with you and I don't know what to do about it. This is that realization of Ilya getting this clarity I feel.
Declan (36:26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, he's finally able to voice it. This is the thing, they will always try to put up some sort of barrier to stop these two from actually communicating directly. And it's totally fitting for them because they're both emotionally repressed weirdos. And as a result of that, now they're so unable to communicate, but this is as close as we've ever gotten to them having a real conversation about how they feel about each other.
it's in Russian and Shane doesn't understand it but after this
Silvan (36:57)
Right?
But I think
he does. I think he understands the fundamental sort of what he's trying, what it is trying to say because there's this receiving shot of Shane just closing his eyes and absorbing it. And it feels like he's literally absorbing it into himself.
Declan (37:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, he definitely is. There is something being received there. The emotion behind it is what Shane is sort of enveloping himself in. Yeah, it's a very, very emotionally charged scene. It's beautifully done. It's wonderfully delivered by Connor's Storrie And I just thought it was one of the best parts of the entire episode and part of the series, to be honest.
Silvan (37:43)
I agree, I think this is one of my favourite scenes of the entire series so far. Like, for me, if I was going to show anybody, this is why you should watch it, this is why you should watch this show. For me.
Declan (37:47)
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Silvan (37:56)
And then it's interesting how following this, we get this commentary from the hockey about Shane having a really tough week or a tough couple of weeks, but that always makes him bounce back harder. So it's like, he uses this to push harder, to play harder, to play better.
Declan (38:12)
That's what he's always done though. Every time he has a negative experience in his life, it pushes him forward in his hockey, which goes to show that it's his outlet, it's his way of processing things. And then I love that his match then is against Shane and they both are absolutely loving playing SHR. You can see the smiles are like splitting their faces. They're just so, so happy because not only are they going to be hooking up after this, but they also get to play each other because
Despite everything, they are still rivals. They like, they enjoy the competition, the thrill of challenging one another. And yeah, it's such a brilliant moment that all then comes crashing down whenever Shane gets injured on the ice. And it was like, God.
Silvan (38:59)
So as someone who hasn't read the books, when that happened, I was shook. I was like, what the fuck just happened? I was not expecting that. I mean, you get a bit of why is he looking back? Like, ⁓ it seems like a car crash waiting to happen kind of situation. But you do not see the other guy just slam into him.
Declan (39:01)
imagine.
Yeah, like this is one of the things I was disappointed with as a book reader is I knew this was happening so I wasn't going to get the bike surprise and that that's a bit shit but I can imagine that as like a viewer coming into this not knowing what's going to happen that must have been like such a shock.
Silvan (39:34)
Do know what this was? This was at the end of Mean Girls when Regina George sort of walks out of the school and then the bus hits her. This is how much that affected me.
Declan (39:41)
It's
like a... my god. What just happened? But it's... It feels like it's a good way of giving these two that final fucking push of being like, my god, stop doing this. It's time for you to like really start to commit the song here and go for it.
Silvan (39:57)
Right.
So
I have a question for you because I've seen from several TikToks, you know, that scene where they're rolling him out of the ice rink and he says like, tell him I'm fine. He's going to worry. I've been told that's different from the books. Is that correct? How is that different?
Declan (40:12)
Yeah, perfect.
Yes, in the books, think Shanta's
Ilya, can see us. Everyone can see us. ⁓ Which I don't know which I like better. No, I think I do like the book version better, to be honest.
Silvan (40:37)
What does the book version serve?
Declan (40:40)
The book version serves as ⁓ Shane feeling exposed in that moment in time. it's also it's Shane basically saying to Ilya, everyone can see the worry on your face. They can see how concerned you are. They can see you're freaked out. The way you're looking at me is not the way in which a rival looks at someone else. Like they can see us. They can see what you what you're like because he can see the love and the concern and the emotion on Ilya's face.
So he's communicating to Ilya, Ilya, like they can see that you're, that you're looking at me like that. Like they can see that you love me. And it's that, that moment where it's like, he knows, like he knows how Ilya feels already. And that for that, in the book, that is confirmation that Shane understands that Ilya is in love with him. That for me, anyway, that's what I read from it. But Jacob Terry does it in a different way in which Shane gets
Silvan (41:29)
Yeah.
Declan (41:39)
He's flabbered, he's concussed, he's fucked basically. He doesn't know whether or not he's going to be able to play again, he doesn't know what state his body's in and his concern is, you know, make sure Ilya knows I'm okay, I don't want him to worry.
Silvan (41:55)
I thought,
I love that. And I didn't know there was an alternative sort of scenario to that scene. And to me what that serves is he cares for Ilya more than he almost cares for himself. He's like, tell him I'm going to be okay. In the same way, I think he says something about his parents. Have you called my parents or something like that? They're on par now. His parents and Ilya are on par here. And he doesn't...
Declan (42:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, it's gotten to that point.
Yeah, Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Silvan (42:24)
who's hearing that.
Declan (42:26)
Yeah, because he's that out of it. And lucky enough, the paramedic doesn't hear him. He doesn't. He's like, no, no, like, yeah, your father's coming as well. Thinking that he's talking about, yeah, talking about the dad rather than him. Yeah. I think I can see why Jacob Tierney decided to do that because we have confirmation that Ilya is in love with Shane from the last scene. And this is sort of confirmation that Shane is in love with Ilya in this scene.
Silvan (42:38)
in.
Declan (42:55)
in an indirect way. Whereas in the book, it's more confirmation that Shane understands that is in love with him. Which, you know, because we were getting their thought process and stuff like that there, through the books, like we understand that these characters are in love with each other before any of the events surrounding the proof of it occur. So in the TV show, it's good to communicate instead that, you know, Shane is in love with Ilya and this is him admitting it out loud.
and free this sort of indirect way. And so I get why Jacob Tierney decided to change it up a little bit because the audience doesn't fully grasp if Shane is in love with Ilya in the same way that he just confessed his way that he did. So it serves a purpose.
Silvan (43:38)
But
because then it seems one-sided, especially from this heartbreaking, beautiful monologue that we've just heard, right? It feels a bit selfish, one-sided. It's like, wait, hang on, where's the I love you back bit indirectly? And that's what Jacob does. Yeah.
Declan (43:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And we just got it. Yeah. Yeah, he does it.
So yeah, it's a great scene. And then it's followed up by the hospital scene, I think is so funny. It's, I think it's very Hudson Williams sort of, it's the way in which Shane behaves. I'm this is something like sneaking out his actual personality, so it is because he's drugged up and he can behave a bit funny. It's such a good scene and the...
you come to the cottage? Like, you've just been waiting for the entire book and the entire show? Yeah.
Silvan (44:21)
This
has become a vocal stim on TikTok. ⁓ Can I read it out to you? Because I love it. Unless you want to do it. I can't do the intonation, so please don't roast me, Internet. But it's a... I had a whole plan to ask you something. I was going to ask you, will you come to my cottage this summer? Don't go to Russia. Come to my house. We'd have so much fun. It's so private. No one will know. And he says, Hollander, you know we can't do that.
Declan (44:28)
Over.
Silvan (44:50)
And then Shane says, we could have a week or two. We'll be completely alone together. can't do the, but I was, in my head, was playing that scene in my head. It's so sweet.
Declan (45:00)
Yeah,
it is so sweet and it's Shane opening up his world to Ilya. It's inviting him into his most private and personal and intimate space. So it is like, is where Shane goes to be happy and he's inviting Ilya into it because he is a person who makes him happy.
I'm coming to the cottage. It's like, whoa, he's got 180. Like, it's his it's him finally seeing that we have a possible future here. If Scott Hunter can come out and be an out.
professional hockey player, we can as well. And Ilya is like, oh my God, this this is answered all of our prayers. whenever, like everything calms down, like we can do that as well. Like we can have that. All we need to do is come out after this. But obviously because of their dynamic, it's a bit more complicated because they're rivals there. They've always been opponents and their relationship has been going on for a really, really long time. There's a deception in it that they perceive.
⁓ That complicates things and makes it a lot more difficult.
Silvan (46:09)
We had been punched in the gut several times by this point. There's only so much we can take.
Declan (46:11)
Yeah.
I'd take any more punishment, it's nothing.
so the ending of the episode, what did you think?
Silvan (46:22)
You know what? I I professed my love for Scott and Kip and the whole rom-com-ness of it all in episode three. I fucking love a good rom-com. And this delivered. This delivered beyond anything that I could have hoped for in episode five. Because I didn't see this coming.
Declan (46:44)
Yeah, it's such a cathartic moment. It's just so great. It's everything that we've been building up to. This is the whole problem. This is the big issue. You cannot come out if you're in the NHL. Like it's death to your career. Like you'll be torn to shreds and the papers and the fans will be cruel to you. And it just creates this whole mess. You just lose everything. And Scott just
I love what brings him to the reason why he decides to do it then and there. He wins this cup. There is no one there. No one is there for him. So he wins, he's looking around himself and whenever the hype of winning and all the players start to calm down and then all their families start to come onto the ice, all the people that love them, the friends, families, all their close ones become
come out and they start greeting them and hugging them and kissing them and then you have Scott stood there alone and then he looks into the crowd and there he is the one man that he actually cares about the family that he's always wanted and always craved after is up there waiting for him and all he needs to do is have the courage to reach out and invite him down and he does and that's just...
Silvan (48:13)
It is, but can I play on this a little because and we talked about the unlikeability of Scott in episode three. To me, as much as I love this scene, as much as I love this relationship, Scott comes to this realization when he has no one around him again. He wants Kip with him when it serves him. This
Declan (48:19)
Go.
We did.
Silvan (48:41)
irritates me to no end. Like, I want this ending. Don't get me wrong. I want this ending. But Scott has this realization when he's alone. Really? That's when he's like, shit, look, I'm alone. wait, the man I love and, you know, is in the stands. Like, I'm going to now have the courage to bring him down and profess my love in a very hang on a minute. Also, I know I'm going off tangent here.
he takes that action to profess his love in front of an arena of hockey players and fans and on presumably national television. Kip doesn't really get that much of a choice here. Like, yes, he's complicit and he goes out to the ice and it's his decision to go down and everything, but as someone who likes to talk a lot, where's the conversation about that beforehand?
Declan (49:23)
Okay.
I think that's, it's a grand gesture. It's like a grand romantic gesture. It's yeah, if you, if you read it like that, then it's like, yeah, yeah. I mean, personally, my nightmare, but, um, Chip is a romantic. He is being complaining that he sat to hide himself this entire time and Scott was ashamed of him and that he couldn't be out and proud and
Silvan (49:40)
I know. I know.
You
Declan (50:03)
had to be in the closet and hiding. So Scott doing like, well, I'll raise that bet. Come down here, we're doing this for the fucking everybody. There is no better way of correcting that mistake, I suppose, in a sort of storytelling manner than to have him do the complete opposite, the antithesis of all the issues that he had to then just undo it all in this moment, now in real life.
Silvan (50:13)
Did you notice? Sorry.
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (50:34)
That would be unfair, but because we're dealing with fiction we can have the moment.
Silvan (50:36)
Right?
This is the,
yeah, and I know why we need this moment. We need this moment as a viewer. I'm not, my God, I'm gonna get so much hate from this now. But I think this is the equivalent to that, you know, in a rom-com where they're chasing after them, like in My Best Friend's Wedding, or they're running to the airport like in Friends before Rachel gets on the plane. Like this is the moment that we need. This is what we're building to, right? And I think here, again,
Declan (50:45)
huh.
Yeah.
Silvan (51:07)
It's the women in the show that act as a catalyst that push these men who don't have the communication skills to be able to articulate themselves. Here we see Elena, and I know I said it with a Spanish accent, I'm sorry. Not really, not sorry. But here we have Elena saying, go.
Declan (51:25)
Yeah, go! Come on, you have my request and now you're like, he's doing exactly what I told him to do! And it's such a good thing, like she is like fully on board for this, she's like, my god, this is so romantic, go, go, go, go, go, come on, make this fairy tale happen for me! And it's typical. Yeah, it's just best brand behavior, honestly, it's just so typical.
Silvan (51:29)
Right?
And in fact, did you notice?
Right? Like you're in fight, you're not even fight or flight. You're in freeze mode. I'm going to push you and you need to start moving your feet towards the ring. Like, you know, and it's such a Capricorn thing. And I don't know if she is a Capricorn, but in my head, she's a Capricorn. She's like, we don't have time to lose. Let's go. Everyone is, you know, you've been. Yes. And we, we've all been waiting for this. And in a way, I love the little nod to.
Declan (51:53)
Yeah, yeah, like, let's go, let's go, come on.
Yeah, let's not mess about here. Your moment is waiting for you. Come on, like, on.
Silvan (52:15)
episode three where ⁓ Scott sort of is sort of circling the ice and he waves at Elena and Kip when they're in the audience and he does it like two times or maybe three. He does this again in this episode. He sort of waves at him, no reaction, then does it again and then Kip starts to go. I really like the mirroring of this here.
Declan (52:24)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Silvan (52:37)
But my question is then, would Scott have come out and declared himself in such a public way?
had they lost.
Declan (52:49)
a question for the ages. Sometimes it's best not to know. ⁓
Silvan (52:49)
This... This... Well, this is where
I really jar with Scott. I mean, not the actor. Francois is beautiful. my God.
Declan (52:56)
Mm-hmm.
unfairly so I
Silvan (53:03)
right? He's 40 in real life but he looks like half his age. Like I need his skincare routine. Yeah he's 40. I think. I mean someone correct me of course but he looks ridiculously good regardless of whatever age he is.
Declan (53:08)
my god.
Yeah, I don't think it would matter what it is.
Silvan (53:20)
like but but you're right this is this is the payoff we need this is the moment that we need as a viewer this is almost the the the ending to this arc that we need because it gives us that hope it satisfies us it gives us this happy ever after end
Declan (53:36)
Yeah, and it perfectly sets up the final part of Shane and Ilya's story where it's like, okay, final barrier is gone. We no longer have an excuse not to be doing this. And then the instantly makes the phone call. It's like, I'm going to the cottage.
Silvan (53:56)
That was my favorite line. That's the most memorable line outside of the monologue. I'm coming to the cottage. And did you hear the remix of that on TikTok? It's called Cottagecore.
Declan (53:59)
Hehehehehe
No, not yet, but I imagine it'll be
on my figure page pretty quick.
Silvan (54:09)
It's
literally Ilya's voice saying, I'm coming to the cottage and it's remixed to like this dubstep beat. It's brilliant. I've actually used it as a sound on my TikTok videos. But what's interesting about that is that they've got this the way they shoot. This is so clever. They've got this sort of circular pan sort of camera around Scott and Kip when they're kissing, right? They also mirror this when they look at Shane's face. Then it cuts to Ilya's face.
Declan (54:15)
Nice.
Silvan (54:38)
but it's almost like the camera kept rolling around so they didn't break the shot in a way. It almost feels like it's one shot between three different characters or four technically. That's not diminished Kip. So, and for me there's this realization where again, it's the women. The women are amazing in the show. Svetlana gets up first. She clocks something's weird. She gets up and she's like, whatever, whatever. Cause Ilya tells her to get something for the niece or whatever.
Declan (54:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Silvan (55:08)
and she walks off. And then it's Ilya who sits there and he's locked in and he clocks on to what's happening way before Shane does.
Declan (55:17)
Yeah, he looks a lot less shocked than Chain does. He clocks in. Like he is like, this is it now. Okay, I can't make excuses for this anymore. I am fucking doing this. I am taking a chance on this guy. If Scott can have it, I can have it. And that is Ilja. That is purely him. He is now fully committed to this thing. Like he wants to try. He wants to at least give it a go.
but needs to know if Shane is on board and so he's going to need to find that out whenever he goes to the cottage.
Silvan (55:51)
And I love this ending. I love the really curt cutoff where you just hear, ⁓ from Shane. It's not even a yes. Like we assume he's going and this whole, I'm coming to the cottage has taken everyone by storm. Like we're all using this in daily vernacular as if it's something that we do. Like we're all like, we're so excited to go to the cottage next week. We're coming to the cottage.
Declan (55:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's so good. It's just such a, it's not an iconic line, so it is. And it's well deserved. It's excellent finale for the episode and a nice way to take the end of Shane and Ilya's story for now, you know. And yeah, I'm actually really, really looking forward to talking about the final episode. think there's almost like a bit of a come down in it. So there is, it's almost like a...
Okay, so we can just sit and relax these guys now we can see exactly how this will unfold So yeah looking forward to that
Silvan (56:50)
Yeah, I wanna see what happens at the cottage, like, bring it on.
Declan (56:54)
Anything could happen at the cottage.
But with that, we are gonna bring this episode to a close. This was packed full of some of the best moments in the entire show and we had a really great time talking about it. In fact, you couldn't shut us up, so it had to be split into two parts. But anyway, if you guys are enjoying this, if you enjoyed it as much as we did or you had thoughts on what we discussed, then...
Leave a comment, like it, share it. If you have anyone in your life that's a bit of a heat of rivalry fan. Don't be afraid to recommend it to them. But yeah, we're really excited and we love doing this episode and we're looking forward to doing episode six now. So keep an eye out for that. That'll be really good. And yeah, we'll see you next time.