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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite
you to take a moment,
a moment to sit, a moment to
breathe, a moment to let go.
Surrendering in to all the possibilities,
breathing in
and once again breathing out.
Watching each breath as an
opportunity to practice letting go.
Taking information in
and once again letting it go.
Breathing in and breathing out.
What is alive?
What are we looking to hold on to?
And what are we capable of surrendering?
Breathing in,
breathing out,
finding your place,
finding the container, once again safe
to practice the art of letting go,
watching your active imagination,
your consciousness ever expanding,
breathing in and breathing out,
exploring,
and once again, letting go.
And now turning towards your breath.
Taking an opportunity to scan your body
and finding this moment, not
only to let go, but let in.
Opening your eyes when you feel called.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression, to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I am honored and deeply deeply
grateful super excited to have Terrence.
Terrence.
It's good to see you
It's great to hear you.
How are you coming in?
It's calmest to me ready to let go
and let in Well, let's start there as
it relates both to your psychedelic
experiences and your healing journey How
do you listen to when it's time to let go
and when it's time to really surrender?
I
guess And I
find myself in high stress situations.
It's it's time to call myself back
because I don't think high stress
situations come often in my life.
So when they do, it's time to recognize
what's going on and and how to,
like you were saying just before,
come back to the breath and Just
relax into the stress because at the
day, that's all we can do about it.
You and I have worked a great deal
of time together and what I know
about you is your capacity to be in
experiences and integrate experiences.
What do you notice about yourself
when it's time to go into an
experience and when it's time to
integrate and experience more?
Well, as you know, you've I don't know
if you coined the term for me or whether
it's somewhere along the way, but I
know you've nicknamed me the chameleon.
And so yeah, I think I've always had a
sense of fitting in to any situation.
I don't know where I learned that
along the way, but probably just,
yeah, psychedelics early on, spiritual
searching through the twenties and Yeah,
I think just yeah, fitting in, I guess
that's, that's the best way to put it is.
And if I'm not fitting in, then
do I, do I just walk away and, and
come back to that situation at some other
point, whether it's a situation or a
thought or, or whatever, but yeah, cause
sometimes you're not ready to deal with
whatever it is that's on your plate.
And so whatever, I mean, the term back
burner is always the go to, and yeah.
Do you get the sense when that comes
up that it's more of a call to do
deeper work, or it's more of a call to
process things on this linear plane?
The thing that first popped into my
mind there was the search for nirvana.
And right.
I mean, as, are we all searching for
some sense of, Peace in every moment.
I mean, I know I am so right.
I'm not going to speak for anybody
else, but yes, peace in every moment and
And that's the lifelong journey.
I don't know if I get to that point
at the end or not, but I think I lead
a pretty peaceful life and, and, but
there's always work to be done as far
as gaining more insight into how to be,
even more relaxed.
I'm going to take this
and pivot a little bit.
Would you say psychedelics gives you
more opportunity to find relaxation in
a state of calm even after and before or
what's your relationship to psychedelics
as it relates to what you're talking
about being calm or finding nirvana?
Initially,
I don't think there's calm in the
beginning before a psychedelic
experience for me., I think I, I
have learned how to create set and
setting and I think I've calmed
more, but I still feel like there's a
an unknown that can never be
entirely dissolved before a trip.
So, yeah, I mean, and there's,
there's the anticipation of what's
going to happen, cause you never
know what's going to happen.
You can prepare as much
as you possibly want.
And it's, , the drugs are going to do
what they're going to do and you're going
to see what you're going to see, what
I'm going to see, what I'm going to see.
So
Yeah, but the, the calmness afterwards
is, is why I do the drugs because
whether an enlightenment happens or not,
there is always a sense of, I mean, and
a lot of the times it's exhaustion, you
know, relaxation is exhaustion because
the journey is, is a lot of work.
Right.
And
but as I like to term the afterglow
is, is when the calmness comes
in, when the integration comes in.
And yeah, I mean, I'm thankful
that I've had as many experiences
as I've had over the last
five.
You have worked with
psychedelics for 35 years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why I appreciate your insight is
the value in what you described
earlier as the unknown, but yet
the importance of letting go.
Why is it important in your mind
to both have excitement but yet
a cautionary apprehension or even
curiosity of the unknown
trust?
Say more about that.
I think
as I hear your question
and your comments, I.
Believe that these prep, these
experiences are preparations for death.
And and my mind just
goes to, if I can have.
trust in the death and
dying process, then,
then I'm one step ahead of
one step more ready to let that
process happen when it does.
Yeah.
The ultimate letting go.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I, that's why I love
what your perspective is
because I, I agree with you.
I think if we came in to medicine work
or doing any kind of psychedelics with
a cavalier personality or a lack of
humility, I think what we're ignoring is.
the value of this being a practice.
in the art of death and dying and
the humility it takes to surrender.
Correct.
And I think
just being a being in this world,
we can give that whether it's
to somebody close to us that may
be in the dying process or, or,
or what, and then back to letting go.
I mean, it doesn't have
to be the physical dying.
It can be the letting go of.
Of some past experience that
we need to, we need to let die
because it no longer serves our you
know, our, our spiritual journey.
I really love how you turned it
towards not just the physical
expression, but also like releasing the
attachment to maybe a story of ours.
Be it potentially if we were divorced,
or if we acted a certain way in
our course of our life, or we did
something that we're not proud of,
or someone did something to us.
I, I would love to hear more about
how you practice that, that art
of letting go of old stories or
healing it through psychedelics.
It's hard.
I mean, it's one of those like, it is,
you know, you think you're done and then
just a little like nibble of it comes
back and you know, you're just like,
Oh, I guess I still have a little bit.
That's where I guess the process of
letting go is never ending because even
I mean, I'm not going to pretend to know
how our brains truly work, but you know,
even if there's one little tidbit of.
of that story still stuck in there.
It can come out even just looking
at a sign in the road or whatever.
I mean, it can all come back and
and then you, I have to either just
say, I'm still working on that, or I
have to say, I'm, I'm happy with my
results in, in letting go of that.
And it's, it's, I mean, I guess it can
be a positive in that sense of just like,
I'm seeing it and I'm, I know that the
work is done and that's, that's okay.
And I've had plenty of
experiences where I've had to,
you know, yeah, relationships.
They needed to be let go of that.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's
the hardest work for me is, is,
Yeah, there's no wrong relationship.
But there's certainly been
relationships where I'm just like,
Why did I have to go through all that?
And
and now I'm here doing that.
It's humbling, when I hear you say that,
I often share, we are where we were to
get to where we are, and it's a way of,
releasing shame and guilt and letting
go of bringing in all the emotions,
being able to, and I think my own.
Gratitude for psychedelics is it's taught
me how to interact with all the different
spectrums of emotions and being okay with
the stories that I've lived in the stories
that I've created and listening to them
as you said so beautifully and Witnessing
them and being with them as long as I need
to be without like running away from them.
Yeah, I mean, that's the biggest
thing is recognizing that
you have to You have to run towards
them, I think that's, I mean, those
are the two biggest journeys that,
that everybody is on is who, who do
you play in that, in that role, are you
running away, are you running towards,
and yeah, I mean, I think psychedelics
are the, the obvious choosing of my
path to run towards,
because, I mean, it's scary.
And but it's never, it's never
made me so scared that I don't
feel like I need to do it again.
Right.
Well, and I think you, you are a testimony
to aftercare and integration and you're on
the precipice of that right now, it leads
me to invite in what you are called to do.
You're, you're going towards yourself on
a, on a big voyage on a hike, correct?
And so that's both an experience and.
Integration at some level, no?
Correct.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's
one of the ultimate journeys.
I mean, it's the pilgrimage.
It's what so many people are called to do.
And Yeah, I'm, I mean, it's the same
thing as any psychedelic experience.
I mean, this is, it's still a month
and a half away But I mean the the
apprehension and the excitement are
both right there And I mean, yeah I
guess all of my psychedelic experiences
of it have led up to this one because
I feel like it's it's big I mean, it's
it's the potential for walking a lot
of miles along the Pacific rest trail.
I've actually, I've probably made six
or seven plans around all of this.
And, and I'm happy with my last plan.
And are you willing to let it go to
at the same exact, I was just going to
say, yeah, I'm a, I mean, I was just
reading somebody's forum the other day.
And I mean, that's what everybody
talks about as far as people that
have experienced this trail before is
You can plan as much as you want, but
anything can happen.
Weather can happen.
Injury can happen.
You might just meet somebody.
You might have to, you might just
feel like chilling for a couple
days because it's really cool there.
You know, so there's, there's a
multitude of, Unknowns that that can
throw the plan right out the window, so.
Which I love as an eclipsing
of psychedelics, right?
So you're gonna do this large hike
and be with yourself, you're running
towards yourself, and at the same
breath, you're saying, I'm gonna
walk into the unknown, just like a
psychedelic experience, and trust it.
You used the term trust earlier.
How do you develop your trust?
And what what would you say to how you've
calibrated your intuition both be it
for the trail or a psychedelic journey?
What do you listen to and
how do you know you're ready?
That's a good one.
I
think
I think it happened fast You
know, so I wasn't given too
much time to think about it.
And so or question it I guess there's
plenty of time to think about it, but
there was never a questioning of You
Oh, no, this isn't the right time, or,
oh, I'm busy, or whatever, this was
like, no, I have, I have the time, I'm
ready, and, I, yeah, back to, what do
we do before a psychedelic experience,
what do we set in setting, so I've been
training, setting my mind right, setting
my body right, and as best I can, and
I know that, I don't think there's,
nothing can train you for walking
for weeks at a time, other than
walking for weeks at a time, so.
I guess that's, that's
the, that's the experience.
It's just going out there and, and
knowing that you have to walk for 12 hours
every day or more or less, you know, but
I'm just, I mean, back to trust I've
given myself enough experiences in
the wilderness to know that I trust
my abilities to manage most any
situation that the wilderness might
throw at my throw in front of me.
But But once again,
there's always going to be
things that you can't prepare for, so
nobody can prepare for getting struck by
lightning or something along those lines.
But, you know.
You just know that you shouldn't stand
under a big tree or hold up your tent
pole or something like that, it's, I mean
a lot of it is, is just don't be stupid.
Yeah, and go and going back
to that word Don't be stupid.
Put it under the light and the
microscope of psychedelics.
What would you say is a prudent
way to work with psychedelics?
How do you know the healthy edge to
walk, but also know the humble prudence
when working with the psychedelics.
Let's start from the other
side and say, what was a stupid
psychedelic experience in my life?
Yeah, let's go there.
I don't think psychedelics at a
party are, in my mind, appropriate.
I don't think I gained anything
from being around a bunch of people
and just watching the madness that
unfolds in that, and I think, yeah,
you just, you, you get to, I get to
caught up in what my psychic
abilities may or may not be.
And I don't, you know, I don't
really want to be psychic.
I don't want to know what other people
are thinking, but I think that's one
of the doors that psychedelics opens.
And if you're around people, then it
can, for me, just lead down paths that
aren't what the journey is about to me.
So, I think that's
being stupid in my mind.
Being intelligent in my mind,
being smart in my mind is back to
it, just preparing the moment for,
for the journey ahead.
And yeah, I mean, it
comes down to preparation.
So I think that's one would I love you
right what I love you saying too is it's
going internal rather than external I
don't judge or shame or I am an advocate
a huge component to recreational use of
psychedelics for Going to a festival or
walking in the woods I can see value in
it, but we have to be cautious just like
you on your pilgrimage in the Pacific is
there's I don't know if it's so prudent
to be doing so much when there's so
many different variables that can be.
And so, to speak to set and setting and
harm reduction, we have to be conscious
of what our motivations and intent are.
And also our history.
I mean, I've seen people doing it as
long as you have for 35 years and still
have the proverbial challenging trip.
because they were doing something
outside of the scope of safety.
Exactly.
And I think I've just, I've heard
enough stories too, that it's just
just seems like
more calm you are from the beginning,
the the better chance you are of having a
life changing experience.
What was your personal opinion on
how often and when do you know you've
integrated it enough to do it again?
Well at this point in my life, I
have jumped on the bandwagon of micro
dosing and I feel like that does
everything it needs to
do as far as just daily
exploration of the mind.
So yeah, I mean it's I think big
doses have it's been a while.
I can, I couldn't even tell
you actually the last time that
I've done a big dose, but it's
I guess maybe because I've done
enough, you know, I mean, at
some point in my life, I always
wanted to bring back the experience
and that's where, I mean, I was just
before I knew you and before, I guess I
had the words for integration.
But I, yeah, I mean, I guess that
was, I always wanted to just find the
psychedelic experience in sobriety, you
know, and and I guess I'm still looking
for that because I still microdose, so.
Yeah, but it's a great point, and I
really appreciate it, Terrence, that
you're, because I'm, like, leaning into
that as a conversation with many, many
people, is I'm looking to walk this path.
Psychedelic experience in my sober living
so taking the expanded state and bringing
it into our conscious everyday state and
Honestly, it's that's really wisdom and
that's wonderful and knowing when to set
it down and when to pick it up and my
question to you is what are the Exercises
and the physical things that you know
Can tap you into a psychedelic experience
without taking psychedelics just
waking up in the morning
Yeah, it's a trip it's definitely
a trip I think the more sober you
get away from psychedelics, too I've
noticed in my own Stepping away, and
when I'm walking with it, the sober
path leads into everything becoming
a little bit of an LSD experience.
You're just like, is
that really happening?
Did you just see that?
Did you want, you want another
person to see what you saw?
Correct.
Yeah, that happens quite often.
So, and yeah, I don't really have a lot
of people around me to to question that.
So I just I get to let it go and just
be like, all right, that was cool.
Another, another exercise
of letting it go.
Yeah, it's fun.
I mean, I guess that's what
makes life afterwards enjoyable.
I mean, that's why so many people use
psychedelics in, in the death and dying
process is because it, yeah, back to it.
I mean, it allows you to,
to not worry, to not stress.
There's no, I mean.
Life is not, life is
not that big of a deal.
Mm-Hmm.
. And I know we live in a world where
people like to make everything a big deal.
And maybe that's why I don't care to
be around many people because I mean,
just I know better than to get caught
up in, in the dramas That's, that
anybody is welcome to Do, you know?
Mm-Hmm.
. I mean, I'm, maybe if I haven't
had never done psychedelics, that's
that's where my path would've led me.
But because of this, I'm
happy to just let it go.
Let it go.
And there's a sense that when
I'm listening to you talk,
it's not as if you don't care.
You, you actually have a deep
reverence for life, and I want to
support and just validate you, because
I've known you as long as I have.
You, you validate life, you
appreciate life, you actually
revere life quite a bit.
It's what I'm hearing, and maybe you
can put your words on it, is just
the magnitude of, like you said, the
chaos or the intensity, doesn't have
to be seen in that way all the time.
Correct.
I don't I guess it just comes down
to I don't have time, you know, I've
got more important things to do.
And right.
I mean, and yeah, I guess at the
end of the day, I, I would rather at
some point be an example for, for a
few people that can learn from the
example that I've set in front of me.
That's really what I choose to do.
But, I've got a few close friends that I
think I have great relationships with and
we get deep and those are the things that
I am, that I find important in my life.
So yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
And I I'm greatly appreciative of
what you're saying is in a way.
Can you tell me about how
psychedelics have taught you to
classify value and importance?
Is that what I'm hearing?
Is part of your experience with
psychedelics has taught you how to
value certain things and maybe not
take other things so seriously?
Yeah, I mean they make you go
deep, like you, I get to explore,
yeah, the inner workings of my brain,
of, of the cosmic brain, of, of just
the universal, energy that is always
moving in and out of us.
And, I think I've also been, you
know, a studier of Chinese medicine.
And, and I just, I love the way that
they, you know, teach you how to,
I mean, whether it's Tai Chi or,
or Shiatsu or anything like they
teach you how to be tuned into the energy.
And I think they just, I
think they parallel, you know,
psychedelics and Chinese medicine.
So it's I guess that's the the
biggest thing is just Being able
to play with energy, there we go.
Yeah, I like that.
And I think it's a ringing
endorsement to know that we can
listen and we can use multi.
So you talked today about integrating
on a hike and a pilgrimage, integrating
with sobriety, integrating with Eastern
philosophies and different medicines.
But what has been super profound
for me witnessing you, Terrence,
is being the ever explorer and the
investigator and surrendering to the
not knowing, but still exploring.
Correct.
Because I think, I don't think we're,
I don't think there's many models
that, that teach us what to do.
Well, there's many models that teach us to
fear the unknown and, and I've certainly
was raised with some of those and
yeah, I mean, at one point I read a
book called love is letting go of fear.
And I guess that's you know, that's where
I tend to put my energies into love.
And, and I guess that's the biggest
thing that you're that I'm constantly
working on is, does fear pop up fear
pops up, then how long does it take
for that to You know, be met with love.
I love it.
It's beautiful.
Yeah.
So just, I mean, like I said,
waking up every day with love,
that's the biggest thing.
Yeah.
And then ignoring the fears, listening
to the fears, but then again, vibrating
towards love and seeing when it
will show up is really beautiful.
I'm appreciative and super grateful today
what I witnessed in our conversation is
your capacity to take accountability.
Often I'd hear you almost say we
or they and then you and I'm so
grateful for your ability to take
your own personal story and own it.
What would you say, why is that
so important specifically as
it relates to psychedelic work?
Because it's, it's
a personal journey.
And I think the more I
can develop my, my eye,
and like you said, just accountability
for everything that is my life.
It doesn't I don't, I think we've
said this throughout the whole time,
that's it's nobody else's, Journey
that you're going on, I guess, that's
why I feel like taking psychedelics
in a recreational party setting is
not, you know, is not the best use of
your time because I don't think that's
getting into the depths of my psyche.
We'll just have to turn inwards and I
mean that's what that's what all of the
models say.
For reaching some state of enlightenment
or whatever you want to call it, so.
Yeah, and it is whatever
we want to call it, right?
That personal note.
What are you doing to
walk gently with yourself?
I
mean, it just seems like I always am,
so it's a hard one to, like, pick apart.
Well, let me ask you a
variation of this question.
When you're not being gentle
with yourself, what do you do
to be gentle with yourself?
Yeah, I mean, I think at times reach out
to people, if there's Because I think
there's always opportunity to
pull whatever the fear is out
of the brain and then make it
come out and invisible in front of you.
And then, having another person to
talk it out with is, is always helpful,
I think in my mind, as long as the
other person is, you know, is right
there, you know, as a listener, I think
the biggest thing is the listening.
I love it.
I'm so humbled and grateful
that our time together was in
just the infinite insights.
I appreciate you.
I appreciate you.
It's always a pleasure
because I don't think I get to yeah,
like I was just saying, not a lot of
people that we talk to that I talk to.
So.
Yeah, just to have this
experience is is beneficial.
And I think, yeah, part of this trip
that is is planning, I think after
this experience, the integration after
this experience will be the saying,
I've planned as much as I can and
now, now it's just, now it's training.
I just want my body to be in the
best place that it can, and mind
can be to to set off on something
that's, like I said, I have plenty
of experiences with, but I have never
long distance through height before.
Right, right.
And at this point in my
life, it's time to do it.
Love it.