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The Hamilton Centre Podcast | Exploring Mental Health & Addiction is for service providers, individuals and family members dealing with co-occurring mental health and substance use conditions. In response to the recommendation of the Royal Commission into Victoria's Mental Health System (2021), the Centre was established to create a more inclusive and supportive system by promoting integrated care in Victoria, Australia.
Our podcast will feature interviews with service providers, individuals with lived experience, and workers who assist people with co-occurring conditions. We aim to promote holistic care throughout Victoria by breaking down barriers to treatment and through open minds and open doors.
This series features Gemma Turvey's composition, "Turquoise," performed by Gemma on piano, Craig Beard on vibraphone, and the talented musicians of the New Palm Court Orchestra.
Welcome to the Hamilton Centre podcast, a space where we explore the thinking of leaders, service providers, workers, and people with living and lived experience shaping the landscape of integrated care in mental health and addiction services in Victoria. I'm Annie Williams, Hamilton Centre Relationship and Partnership Lead, and your host today. The Hamilton Centre acknowledges with deep respect all First Nations people and traditional owner groups within Victoria. We extend that respect to the traditional owners of the land on which this episode is recorded, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and pay our respects to elders past and present, and acknowledge their unceded connection to land, sea and sky. Hamilton Centre recognises people with lived and living experience of mental ill health, alcohol and other drug issues, and of recovery, and the experience of people who have been the carers, families, or supporters of people with co occurring issues, as their experiences help us shape services that are safe, accessible, and inclusive.
Annie:For today's episode, I'm happy to welcome two lived experience professionals whose expertise and commitment to improvement has seen them become respected advocates for community representation and systemic change. We will discuss their roles in the mental health and AOD sectors and how they support others in their recovery and explore how lived experience has shaped their work, the challenges they face in supporting people, and the stigma surrounding mental health and addiction issues. We'll also dive into how lived and living experience workforces and communities can be better supported and the importance of inclusive environments, and how services can be improved. First, I'd like to welcome Benn Veenker, the manager for lived experience workforce and advocacy at Turning Point, Australia's leading addiction treatment and training and research centre. Benn is a passionate recovery advocate dedicated to breaking down the stigma associated with substance use and mental health.
Annie:With over ten years of sharing his lived experience, he aims to reduce the time it takes for individuals to seek help for their substance use and or mental health challenges. And welcome to Tharindu Jayadeva, a lived experience advocate with a background in public health and community engagement, working towards more meaningful and trauma responsive care practices. Tharindu has designed, delivered, evaluated, and advised on health projects at local, national, and international organizational level, including Origin, Headspace, Batyr, Oaktree, and now works with the Butterfly Foundation, Mental Health Victoria, and Alfred Health to bring a focus on co design, lived experience storytelling, and community participation. Thank you both for being here today.
Benn:Thank you, Annie. Thank you.
Annie:Benn, if I can start with you, I'd like to, ask a little bit about your own journey, if you're happy to share that, and how this has led you to become involved in the AOD advocacy field.
Benn:Yeah. Sure. It's, it's been quite the journey, Annie. It's, it's one that's it started for me oh, look. About twelve years ago, I sought some help because I'd reached a point in my life where I was using substances daily to help manage my mental health and manage where I was at in life.
Benn:And when I sought treatment, I sat down with a gentleman, and he connected with me on a on a level I hadn't connected to somebody before. And he was very he was quick to let me know that he had a lived experience. And he'd sat in the chair that I was sitting in. And I remember thinking to myself, I wanna be that guy. I knew what I was doing professionally at the time was not fulfilling at that moment.
Benn:And, so when I left treatment, I decided that I was gonna enter work in the AOD space. And then, yeah, started on that journey. So I upskilled, got some new qualifications, and entered the drug and alcohol sector. And from there, it's been the past ten years has been it's been wonderful. Like, it's a sector that gives me a lot of fulfillment, a lot of satisfaction, and real purpose and meaning to my life.
Annie:So we've got a lot to thank that mentor for.
Benn:Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's, you know, I look back on that time, and I'm really grateful that he was able to share with me some of his lived experience, because immediately it gave me a feeling of safety, within the service that I was accessing. And and it gave me hope that I could do something that would bring myself a lot of meaning and purpose. And therefore be able to help other people who were who were seeking help for their substance use as well.
Annie:Very validating.
Benn:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Annie:And, Tharindu, are you happy to share your journey and how you became to be the mental health advocate that you are today?
Tharindu:For sure. And I think, it probably runs a little bit in tandem to Ben's story as well. I guess my entry into the mental health sector was from, I guess, going through my own mental health challenges. I remember in primary school and high school feeling very isolated and alone, feeling like I was an outsider for a number of different reasons, mostly around the color of my skin, the way that I looked, the, you know, the food that I brought to school for lunch every day, was quite different to the people around me, and my way fitting in was just to, you know, be like everyone else. I never necessarily saw myself represented in any of these spaces, and, you know, I held quite a bit of shame with my body and and the way that I looked, and I developed an eating disorder through that transition period from high school into university, and that was probably one of the toughest and darkest times of my life.
Tharindu:I call it the darkest and coldest moments. Yeah. Just feeling very alone, and, I think the thing that I needed was to see someone who looked like me talking about mental health and particularly eating disorders. And I think there aren't many young men or people of color who are talking about, you know, eating disorders. And I think that is what inspired me to get into the mental health sector, but also to share my story, because I kinda do this for little Tharindu who never saw or heard a story like this, spoken into existence.
Tharindu:And, yeah, I just want, I guess, people to know that there is, you know, help and and support available. And, I think from getting involved in participation opportunities in the mental health sector as a volunteer and as a community member. I remember feeling so validated, and heard and understood, but at the same time, I remember, you know, lots of opportunities where I felt the exact opposite.
Annie:Mhmm. Yeah.
Tharindu:And I wanted to, I guess, step into a role where I might be able to lean into the really positive elements of what community participation could look like and, build, you know, safe enough for someone who I work with at the moment calls it brave spaces to show up in.
Annie:That's nice.
Tharindu:I think that's something that I really wanted to to be able to do, and I have the privilege of being able to do that, at the moment.
Annie:I'm sure little Tharindu would be very proud of you now.
Tharindu:I sure hope so.
Annie:Thank you both for sharing such honest representations of your journeys. I'm just wondering if you could both share what does a typical day look like for you in your roles? Ben, you're working in workforce, in clinical areas, in Tharindu in the community.
Benn:Yeah. Absolutely. I suppose a typical day for me is we've really grown our lived experience workforce at Turning Point, and I make a very conscious effort of being there for the team. So often my days are traveling out to different sites, providing support and mentorship to our team. So that's a really important part of my role, but I also say just as important for my role is supporting the team leaders or program managers who are there with the team on a day to day basis.
Benn:So being able to be there, answer their questions, normalize the fact that we are introducing a new workforce. And with that comes its own challenges. It involves doing things differently, and it involves being open to change, which can be challenging. So acknowledging that and providing space to talk about that and space to be able to collectively work together of how do we make this work.
Benn:Because we know the benefit of having lived experience workforce within clinical teams. We know the impact that it has on people who access our services. So how are we gonna make this work? So my role is twofold in terms of supporting our our lived experience workforce, but also supporting the clinical staff who work alongside that workforce.
Annie:And bring them along with your workforce.
Benn:Yeah. Bring them for the ride and, you know, it's it's been great.
Annie:And, Tharindu, how does your day present itself?
Tharindu:Yeah. I feel like, you know, it fits quite, well with what Benn's been talking about around the lived experience workforce and and how we might integrate that into, you know, clinical workforces or other teams, that don't traditionally have, lived experience or people with a lived experience within them. My role, I guess, is focused at the community level and and bringing people who have a lived experience but aren't involved in the workforce, you know, making sure that they're involved in our decision making and in our service improvement and service design and, you know, all those kinds of activities that kind of generally happen at organizational level. So for me, you know, a typical day might, you know, look like facilitating a co design workshop and, you know, trying to listen to some of the stories that, you know, consumers and carers have of accessing services. And I think Benn mentioned, you know, doing things differently, and I think that's something that I, as soon as you said that, I felt it deep within me because I think that's something that, you know, we, I hear pretty much every day from from people, and it's something that I've said to services when I've been a participant in in this kind of work myself.
Tharindu:But, we do need to do differently, especially when we hear or know differently. And, yeah, I think for me pretty much every day involves some kind of storytelling. It might be me sharing my story. It might be me hearing someone else's story and trying to figure out how do we honor someone's experience in a way that's meaningful, and pays respect to the fact that community continue to show up for us as a system, and for services, even when you know, there are services that do harm to community.
Tharindu:Yes. And so being able to recognize that it is a deep privilege to continue having community members who are willing to, to work alongside you
Annie:Yes.
Tharindu:And, you know, it's deeply relational. And I think most of my days are just having a chat with someone. And, whilst it might not feel like work, I feel like it's part of it's part of the job to have a chat with
Annie:I like that.
Tharindu:With the crew.
Annie:Just to have a chat.
Tharindu:Yeah. And, yeah, I think that's been, you know, something that I've benefited from in the past. And, yeah, I think is really important and integral for us to, you know, I guess, work at the speed of trust building. And a lot of that involves conversation
Annie:However long that
Benn:listening.
Tharindu:Yeah. Exactly. So
Annie:You've you've both mentioned about doing things differently, and I am aware that there is national guidelines around the lived experience workforce. Do these also apply to the community, engagement workforce?
Tharindu:Yeah. So there are particular guidelines around how we work in partnership with consumers or service users.
Annie:Yes.
Tharindu:And I think that is, I guess, a really significant, I guess, driver for how we might ensure that, community members are involved in, you know, just ways of working.
Annie:And for your workforce development, Benn, are they an important part of the structure and bringing perhaps individuals who aren't aware of the value of lived experience along?
Benn:Absolutely. I mean, and they really help bring people on board with what we're trying to do and what we're trying to implement and, yeah.
Annie:I wanted to ask you both, we talked about sort of not seeing yourself represented, and, you know, feeling the stigma of and the shame of having either a mental health or an AOD issue. How do you navigate this stigma that's associated with mental health or mental ill health and AOD issues both personally and professionally? Because you've had your own lived experience but then you must see it being experienced on a day to day basis by others.
Tharindu:That is such a good question. I ask myself that question every day. Yeah. I think a big part of it is, I think for me personally is being kind to myself as well. And listening to the way that, I guess my body is is showing up in certain moments or experiences.
Tharindu:And, you know, as someone who's held deep shame and, self stigma around mental illness in the past, a lot of it's held in the body. And I think for me, being able to tune into and listen to the way my body shows up for me every single day, I think that's been a really big part of feeling okay, and confident and comfortable enough to, show up for community when I can see that there is still stigma. You know, in the community. As as much as we've come a long way of, you know, breaking down and, breaking down some of that stigma in the community, it's still it's still there. It's still present.
Tharindu:But I try and encourage myself, but also the people I work with from a workforce capacity to, I guess, work in this space of, it's kinda like the stretch zone between comfort and discomfort, because comfort is, you know, sometimes it's the the way that we've always done things.
Annie:The safe space.
Tharindu:Exactly. The safe space. And then discomfort, I think usually draws people away even just from the the name of discomfort.
Annie:Isn't that where the work gets done?
Tharindu:That's where the work gets done. That's where the radical and the innovative the truly innovative work gets done. But the stretch zone is in the middle, and I think that's a really important, and maybe often overlooked part of the puzzle. Especially when we're trying to bring people along for what is a ride. It's to maybe gently nudge people into this stretch zone.
Tharindu:It's not necessarily comfortable. It's not necessarily uncomfortable, but it's, I think, personally, for me, it's focused around curiosity, and we're we're curious about what might work, what could we be doing differently, and thinking about who's in the room and who's not in the room, so that we're actually listening and and learning. And for me, I think a big part of this process is unlearning, because we already know that there are ways of working that haven't, has been as effective in the past, but they are just traditional ways of doing and being. But we know that sometimes those are the things that may contribute to harm being done to community, and those are things that we might need to unlearn.
Annie:And I guess by being kind and by being curious, you're also empowering the individual people to show up for themselves as well.
Tharindu:I'm definitely biased because I've done this for so long. It's it's fun to be able to listen to different people's stories and to, I guess, go into it with the intention that, we are and will always be learning.
Tharindu:We should never you know, no one's expected to know every single thing in the entire world. That's why we have multidisciplinary teams and why, you know, the lived experience workforces, you know, peer work is its own discipline, and, these are our colleagues that we're, you know, that we're kinda having a conversation about.
Annie:Exactly.
Benn:Yeah. Yeah.
Annie:And Benn
Benn:Yeah. Look. I think, sort of echoing on what Tharindu was saying, it's within the workforce, often, we're witnessing stigmatized language behaviors, from really well intentioned people. And I really encourage the people I work with around rather than sort of getting resistant to that, getting frustrated with that, is being curious. Like, being able to be the one who leans into that and going, I wonder where that behavior or that belief has come from and and being able to educate people around.
Benn:That's really stigmatizing language you're using or that's stigmatizing behavior that you're engaging with and the impact that has on individuals. So being brave, to be able to lean into that, often within a clinical space is challenging. Yeah. So I really invite our team to reflect on that within our group supervision processes, speak openly to the to that, and then with the support of one another, be able to go back and revisit it. So to not let things slide, and to continue, but to rattle the cage a bit with that those behaviors and that language that can be used at times.
Benn:Because I think it can be easy to default into frustration and anger. But it's, you know, there's been a lot of work done before we got here, but we've got to still continue to carry the torch because we're still very much in our early days with this workforce. So yeah. So it's a challenge, but one that met with bravery and compassion. We can then look at flipping the script on some of these stigmatizing behaviors and languages that are used.
Annie:So it's a real education role, really. Like, you're educating yourselves not to personalize it, but to see it as an opportunity to advocate for your workforce.
Benn:Absolutely. And, like, I almost say that now as a responsibility of who I am as a person now in the community, like someone who has experienced dependent drug and alcohol use for over ten years. You know, I sat in that space for such a long time with shame and guilt about who I was as a person and the behaviors I was engaging with. And a lot of that was around the fact that I didn't know anyone else out there.
Benn:I didn't know about addictive behaviors. I didn't know, that there was different ways of living. I didn't know that my alcohol and drug use was just a symptom of something a lot bigger, that was going on for myself. And now I feel, as I said, a responsibility to be able to speak loudly, speak proudly about that, doing podcasts like these. And speaking publicly about my experience, will hopefully help the next person along not be in that space for as long as I was.
Annie:Yeah. And I think both of you, you've also highlighted on the fact that it's important for people to see themselves represented
Benn:Absolutely.
Annie:In the lived experience workforce. Whether it's culturally or substance or mental health issues, it's an important representation
Benn:Absolutely.
Annie:To have.
Tharindu:For sure. I think I really liked what you'd mentioned around, like, it's an invitation
Annie:Yes.
Tharindu:As well to be curious or to maybe reflect on how we do things. I've heard that, you know, shared, a little bit, and I think that really resonates with me. I want to be told to do something, but if it's a gentle invitation,
Tharindu:sometimes it's a little bit easier to lean into, I love that.
Annie:And that could be applied to your standards development, your policies, your workplace culture, all of that. Be kind and curious.
Tharindu:Yeah. I was listening to something the other day and this person mentioned how important is for us to be kind to each other but tough on systems, and I think that's a way that I try and come into to things, and I think that speaks to what Ben mentioned before.
Annie:Yeah. Challenge the system, not the person.
Tharindu:Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Annie:So when you are engaging with either the community or the clinical setting, what skills or tools do you find most valuable when you're supporting others through their challenges?
Benn:Yeah. I suppose if I look at the look at the clinical workforce, it's what I found really helpful is to provide a space for people to talk openly and
Benn:transparently about their thoughts, their beliefs, what might be their fears, their resistance, and together go, how do we go about overcoming those? So rather than me coming in and going, this is what we're gonna do, and this is what we're implementing. Let's come together. Let's normalize what's happening, and let's look how we can do this together.
Annie:So yours is a collaborative approach?
Benn:Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel without that, we're sort of gonna be butting heads, and we're gonna be pushing it uphill. You know, try to bring it onto a level playing ground. And and to make it and to personalize it. Like, this is, this is a, a process that we need to go through together. And, you know, we're not here to make things more difficult at all.
Benn:We've got mutual goals around improving outcomes for people, about improving their treatment experience for people. Let's be unified with those goals together, and let's look at how we can get creative together.
Annie:Would you say that?
Tharindu:yeah. I'd probably say the exact same thing, but to add something different, I guess, I think, for me, something that I try and do when I'm, I guess, opening up a space for community members to feel some level of connection with either me or a service or a project that I'm working on. I try and just keep in the front of my mind that we do inherently live in an unjust society, and I can't promise anyone's safety.
Tharindu:what I can do is commit to building a safe enough space for someone to feel comfortable and to feel like they can be curious alongside me and to collaborate. And because, ultimately, we want people to come together and it shouldn't just be a one on one, I guess, conversation, particularly in project design, and implementation. So I try and keep that at the front of my mind and
Tharindu:think about what are the other things that are happening in someone's experience, you know, not noticing what maybe some of the fears are, and how do we just do things differently, and how do we do things with maybe innovation and like radical intention in mind, because we know that we do need to do things differently. I think that isn't a surprise to anyone.
Annie:that's a fact.
Tharindu:It's a fact. Well documented. But how do we, yeah, honor that community members, you know, have expertise and ways of being and doing when it comes to healing that, they have worked, and to trust that communities know best for themselves.
Annie:And I guess you're offer offering the individual some scaffolding to start their own journey
Benn:Yep.
Annie:By creating that space but also I imagine that people are coming with a lot of expectation from their own communities or their families or their workplaces. Is it a challenge for people to bring that pressure with them and to start their journey?
Tharindu:Yeah. I think, from maybe my own personal experience, I could speak to it. And it has been a challenge to bring that into the space of you know, either seeking or accessing support, but also thinking about how I've participated in the past. Mhmm. Because there are so many, I guess, layers to the the intersections of my of my life, and it's never just one thing.
Tharindu:Whereas sometimes, when it comes to support or participation or how I might get involved in the workforce, sometimes it feels like I have to maybe close off one part of these intersections because it's just easier that way. But, I think in that challenge is also, like, what an opportunity and what, you know, a really fantastic and significant way of learning about an individual's experience by acknowledging that everything is linked in some way, shape or form. Yeah. So whilst it's a challenge, I think it's also a, I'm known to be a reframer, so I feel like I just reframe this challenge as an opportunity.
Tharindu:I think it could be a good opportunity, as well. Yeah.
Annie:I think, we've already touched a little bit on having a lived experience workforce in a system that's perhaps not aware of the workforce, the lived experience workforce. So how do you advocate for the staff and for the community members in these systems that may not actually fully understand the lived experience perspective?
Benn:There's, yeah, there's different ways we can go about advocating for the lived experience workforce. Currently, there's a federal inquiry into AOD harms in Australian community. So I've personally made a submission within that, which gives us an opportunity to speak to our own lived experience, but also recommendations on how we can make our systems better. So that was a a great opportunity to be able to make a personal submission, but then to also be a part of Turning Point's submission and to participate at the public hearing. So I was able to do that with the clinical director for Turning Point, which was fantastic. So to be able to sit there in front of the committee and to have lived experience in the room was fantastic. And I think the benefit of having lived experience in that space is that it personalizes what we're talking about.
Benn:And I know after that, we had some pretty open and frank discussions with the committee members
Benn:Which I'm unsure would have happened if we didn't have lived experience there speaking to to the concerns. So that's certainly one way we can go about doing our advocacy work. Yeah. Tharindu, did you wanna?
Tharindu:Yeah. I completely agree. I think the lived experience storytelling side of things has been, I guess, not only just pivotal in my own mental health story, and, I guess, pathway into entering the lived experience workforce. But I've seen how it kind of shifts, maybe understandings and ways of of thinking within a maybe a non lived experience workforce. There was a, you know, a time where we had a very stock standard committee that ran every couple of weeks.
Tharindu:And every person in that room, whilst had very different roles, some were clinical, some were, like, administrative, some were, like, finance, specific, they all have a role that has some level of impact on a community member in some way, shape, or form. And I think being able to bring in a story from someone with a lived experience to be able to share, you know, their own experience, with everyone in that room, and help build that connect between, you know, someone who actually may not feel like they have a consumer or a carer facing role, to be able to recognize that the way you show up in in the workplace actually does have an impact on community in some way, I think that could be really powerful. And so I'm a huge advocate for lived experience storytelling and and having people with a lived experience, whether it is the lived experience workforce, but, you know, also, bring community into, into these spaces, but also recognizing, you might be in a room and think, who isn't here? And how might we build a pathway for people to, you know, to feel safe enough to be here?
Tharindu:I think those are, yeah, maybe some things that I've seen, and benefited from myself as a community member.
Annie:And having that representation adds authenticity to any decisions that are made or
Annie:Policies that might be generated.
Tharindu:Yeah. For sure.
Annie:The consultation
Tharindu:And we talk about, like, accountability, and I think that is commonly a value that, you know, a lot of, mental health and and AOD services usually have some level of connection to. And I think having, you know, lived experience storytelling and people with a lived experience within those spaces, whilst I don't think, you know, we can hold other people accountable, we can support others to hold themselves accountable, particularly in the way that we, you know, the language that we use or, you know, that consequences or that outcomes of the decisions we make, being able to support someone's accountability and to, yeah, have that, be a formal part or part of the structure, I think could be a really, yeah, positive way of
Tharindu:doing things.
Annie:I wanted to ask you both about diversity in this arena. Is there capacity for culturally and linguistically diverse communities to be part of a lived experience workforce or a community workforce? Does it extend that far?
Benn:Yeah. Absolutely. It's certainly something we look for with our recruitment processes and to have as diverse and a good cross representation of what's happening in the community, from cultural backgrounds and also even from different substance uses
Annie:Yes.
Benn:As well. So that we've got, a lived experience that is representative of what's happening in the community. It can be challenging as well because there are some cultures that there's a lot of shame and guilt attached to substance use and mental health. So it takes a brave soul to come in and and work in that space.
Benn:But we do as much as we can to have as diverse a workforce lived experience workforce as possible. But I think it's one of those things that is constantly a work in progress. And constantly something that needs to be on the table.
Benn:That what are we doing to continue to have a good cross cross representation
Annie:Because I guess the community's got a right to have these expectations. And do you find that that's applies to your community representation?
Tharindu:Yeah. I think it it really does. And, I think there's definitely space for, like Benn mentioned, to have diverse voices and experiences represented in there, particularly in the community participation space and, you know, extending beyond cultural diversity. I think that's really important to be intentional in the way that we are, you know, building projects or involving communities. And I think for me, something that I've seen, you know, one of the challenges has been, you know, how do we build trust with communities that maybe don't have trust with you
Tharindu:particular health services or, you know, like Ben mentioned, having, you know, particular views around mental health or AOD use.
Annie:Yes.
Tharindu:How do we, I guess, break that down? And, I think for me, one of the the main enablers is relationship building, and the relationship is the project itself and to be able to not necessarily going into a community and acting like, you know, you're the, the expert.
Annie:Yes. Yes.
Tharindu:I mean, I personally am not the expert in a community's mental health story or experience. What I can talk about is what, you know, the services are that are provided in the area. But I think the first thing to do is actually just build a relationship and to see what are the experiences that people have, and then maybe do some work around connecting that to the language of mental health and AOD use. But, yeah, I think, again, I think comes back to working at the pace of building trust.
Annie:Of the end of the individual. I wanted to ask you just thinking back, we've mentioned sort of shame and self stigma and community pressures and things like that. I'm just wondering on an individual level, what are some of the common misconceptions you find with clients that you're working with that they might have about their own mental health or AOD recovery journey. And I was just wondering if you could both sort of talk a little bit about recovery because it means different things to different people.
Benn:Yeah. Absolutely. It's,
Tharindu:it's a good question.
Benn:I remember, yeah, reflect on my own time when I first accessed treatment services, and I had no idea why I couldn't stop drinking or why I couldn't stop using drugs every day. I had no understanding of what was going on for myself. And then to be able to sort of sit down with somebody and for them to give me some context around what was happening, physically and mentally it gave me some understanding. And then he actually said welcome to recovery. And I said, what does that mean?
Benn:And he goes, well, now you've got a choice. I've given you an explanation as to why you've been doing what you've been doing. Now it's up to you if you wanna continue to do that or if you wanna step into this recovery space.
Annie:Sorry, can I just ask you this? So recovery to that individual meant stopping use, but my my understanding is that for some people, recovery is not stopping the behavior. Perhaps modifying the...
Benn:Yeah. So it was more of a, for me at that time, it was as having a circuit breaker with my substance use. If I was to return to that or not, it was up that was up to me. But it was it was hitting a period of stability. Where I could get a break from those destructive behaviors that, that I thought were keeping me safe. Well, they were keeping me safe at the time. But then being able to look at some of those underlying reasons why I was engaging in those behaviors. So recovery for me at that time was about having a bit of a deep dive into some of the underlying reasons as to why I was doing what I was doing.
Benn:So now, you know, many years down the track, it's, I still will occasionally use that line of welcome to the recovery space. And that's self determined Mhmm. Is is what I've since, like, at the when I first got into recovery, it was everybody needs to stop using alcohol and drugs.
Annie:Right.
Benn:Now it's, okay. So what do you wanna do? What changes do you wanna make?
Annie:So it's a choice.
Benn:Absolutely. A personal choice of of what changes you do need to make so that you can potentially improve your quality of life. Because the whoever accesses our services, it's gotten to a point in their lives where it's not sustainable anymore. The consequences have have gotten to a point where someone has said, I can't do this. Mhmm.
Benn:This is not sustainable. So, so recovery is about making some changes, and going how can I improve the way that I'm living?
Annie:So it would be tailored to the individual. Absolutely. Do people come thinking that it's a one size fits all?
Annie:Do they have that misconception?
Benn:Yeah. I think they do. I think for a lot of people who access drug and alcohol services, it's a fear around I'm gonna be told I have to stop. And it's the one thing that makes me feel normal, where, you know, that might need a period of, of reduced use, or stopping or detoxing, where they can then make some informed choices about what they wanna do with their substance use. But, yeah, very much so I feel that, and again, I suppose comes back to the the lack of messaging and and public voice around what is recovery from addiction, what does it look like, what can it look like. Yes. And, you know, I think the more we get out there and and tell these stories, and have a lived experience narrative in the community, the more we can normalize the experience, we can reduce stigma, and again, reduce the time it takes for people to seek support.
Annie:So, Tharindu, just listening to Benn talk about the clinical approach, people coming into appointments and having ideas about what their recovery might look like, how does this affect community members coming into, say, perhaps a co design process or a focus group?
Tharindu:Yeah. I think it's a really good, I guess, point to consider. I think there are definitely some maybe some misconceptions around at what point, in someone's recovery journey, you know, they can slash should, be involved in something like service design or improvement. And I personally believe that, you know, at any point in someone's recovery journey is valuable insight. And I think Ben mentioned, like, choice, and having agency around that.
Annie:Yes.
Tharindu:I think for me personally that was part of my recovery journey was being involved in this kind of work. And I think being able to, you know, break that down and and encourage people to, you know, to just show up as they are, and as they can, at whatever point of recovery, they're on and acknowledge that, you know, recovery looks different for different people, and some people don't resonate or align with that, that terminology. Some people, you know, I think for me personally with my own experience, it feels like recovery is an ongoing and an enduring thing to work on. And I think that offers me enough insight to maybe hold enough space for community members who might be involved in a co design session.
Tharindu:As well and being able to, I guess, scaffold supports into a co design workshop because a a workshop isn't just a, you know, hold a, you know, everyone around a table or on an online meeting for an hour or so. It's it's relationship building, and, it's you don't you can't just throw it together in, you know, a a few hours. Sometimes it takes, a considered amount of effort and work to build a space where, you're intentional with people's time and you respect people's time, but you also, I guess, intentionally weaving in ways of support throughout a workshop.
Benn:Mhmm.
Tharindu:And I think for me that's something that maybe community don't expect when they come into a workshop. They just expect to, you know, share some ideas and some thoughts. I remember I was in a workshop once where the first hour was actually just getting to know each other and building a space where we felt comfortable with each other. There were breaks all throughout, and, it was a three hour workshop, which I remember coming into it. I thought that is so long.
Tharindu:I'm already tired. But, being able to set the expectations to begin with that it wasn't gonna be that long, but also knowing that, there were multiple points of care weaved in throughout that workshop. It's a two way street, and we're not just getting information from community. It's a way for community to also benefit from being in that space. And I remember that three hours flew by so quickly.
Tharindu:I still keep in touch with some of the fellow participants that were in that workshop. And it was yeah really, really meaningful. And I think that's one of the things that really sparked this joy in me for co design, but also, like, how do we just do our work with community as opposed to just for community.
Annie:I'd just like to follow-up on one of the points you've made about when is the right time for someone to be involved in a process. Because in the context of integrated care, this is something that's really come to the forefront that anywhere on someone's journey is the right time. Mhmm. But it's a very difficult thing for some systems to actually accommodate or navigate. What would you say, Benn, for someone coming into the AOD sector?
Benn:Yeah. That's a good question, Annie. Because when Tharindu mentioned that, I'm like, oh, wow. That that reminds me of when I first started in this AOD sector that, I would go for a variety of roles, and some of them would stipulate must be twelve months or twenty four months in recovery. And I was like, wow.
Benn:I'm actually really solid six months into my journey. And I would look at some people and go, wow. You're a little bit unhinged for where you're at in your journey. And, so, like, I think that time, you know, it can be really damaging and exclude people who would have a lot to contribute.
Annie:So it's another form of stigma.
Benn:Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I think this word sort of keeps popping into my head around vulnerability.
Benn:It's something that I try to lead in with my team, and it's also how I lead in with the the other clinical teams that I connect to around, I need to share my vulnerability of my job role and what I'm doing, with an invitation for them to be vulnerable as well. So, and I think the same goes with people with recruitment and our recovery journeys is that we're just really transparent and open and vulnerable about where we're at in life.
Annie:Yes.
Benn:Because that's the essence of lived experience and the lived experience workforce where I often say it's a very public display of a very private journey, where when you enter a recovery space, there's a lot of work that's done, and it a very private journey. But then when we enter the lived experience workspace, we're then invited to share that with not just the people that we work with, but, the consumers that we work with as well. And, and I think that can be, I suppose and I've gone off a little bit of a tangent here, but that's that can be, I suppose, the biggest challenge for our lived experience workforce is we don't get to hide behind a clinical role. We bring our whole self into the space.
Benn:We bring who we are at home into the clinical space as well, and that can be tough. But, again, like, I don't think it matters where you are in that recovery journey. I think if if we're able to lead with vulnerability, openness, transparency, then we provide that safe, supportive space.
Benn:For our consumers and the clinical teams that we work with.
Annie:Yeah, so if we pick up on that point you've made about it's a deeply personal journey, it's actually really up to the employer and the recruiters to be respectful of that but see value in where you're at at the time. Is that
Benn:Absolutely. And how do we nurture that and and provide a safe and supportive space for that staff member, so that they can keep turning up and and doing what they do. So do we have the right processes in place, the right supports in place, the supervision, peer led supervision, reflective practice? We need to make sure we've got all those things in place to avoid people burning out, and being able to bring them their best selves to work.
Annie:Yes. Would you say that the community also experienced this?
Tharindu:Yeah. I think there are definitely some overlaps with that experience, whether it's community being involved in, like, service design or community participation, kind of engagements or even community transitioning into the workforce, I think there definitely is a role to play in, recognizing that, there's still, you know, valuable, you know, parts of the system, just as we are. And there is a role for maybe an employer or a system itself to play in creating supports that are, you know, that will be meaningful for for each individual, kind of person. And I think, something that I think about is when you talk about vulnerability is, also, like, what are people afraid of when we sit when we put these kind of time limits on, you know, recovery, for example, when we know that
Annie:what is the institution afraid of?
Tharindu:Exactly. Yeah. And, because I think there is a work like work to be done to break down some of those fears, and respect and honor that those fears are real, and, it isn't out of maliciousness that, you know, some of these systems are existing, or the structures within the systems exist. But there's some work that we can do to to listen and to figure out ways to, you know, respond to those fears and and hold them gently whilst recognizing that we all need to work in a coordinated effort to to do things differently.
Annie:That's probably a beautiful place to finish or what has been an amazing conversation with both of you. I'd like to thank both of you for your vulnerability and your authenticity bringing the message to the Hamilton Centre podcast about the importance of lived and living experience, workforce and community involvement in our decision making, and our clinical work as well. It's been an absolute pleasure having you both on this podcast, and I thank you both very much.
Benn:Thank you. Thank you so much.
Annie:Thank you for joining us on the Hamilton Centre podcast where we explore the thinking of leaders, service providers, workers, and people with living and lived experience shaping the landscape of integrated care in mental health and addiction services across Victoria. I'm Annie Williams, your host today, and we can't wait to share these insights with you. Visit our website, www.hamiltoncentre.org.au, and subscribe to our newsletter for a journey into transformative mental health and addiction care.