Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this episode of The Shrink Down, we dive into the fascinating world of celebrity comebacks and redemption arcs—what makes us forgive some stars and not others? From Charlie Sheen’s unexpected return to Pamela Anderson’s reinvention to Lindsay Lohan’s long-awaited comeback, we explore the psychology of forgiveness, accountability, and public perception. We discuss why vulnerability resonates, how patterns of behavior shape our judgment, and what these stories reveal about human resilience.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.974)
Welcome back to the Shrink Down. Ladies, how are we doing today? I'm good. good. Well, I'm a little sleep deprived. Are we being honest? Okay, we're not just being like, you it's just not a courtesy. How is everyone doing? Yes. My child has tonsillitis or has her tonsils removed. can't even, I'm saying tonsillitis. She had a tonsillectomy and my husband's out of town and well, I haven't slept and I'm tired.
Lauren (00:04.784)
Hi, good. How are you?
Teri (00:05.022)
Good.
Wilhelmina (00:08.895)
Well, you two have had rough weekends, I feel like.
Lauren (00:09.461)
No.
Teri (00:10.474)
You
Lauren (00:13.653)
No. Our family's falling apart, but we're good. We're good. good. Yeah.
Teri (00:14.57)
Good, good.
Wilhelmina (00:19.167)
You
Lauren (00:26.501)
my gosh. huh. See? I've slept on a couch for the last four days with my broken arm child. Also with a husband out of town. So yeah, we're holding it together.
Vanessa (00:30.126)
Yes, so there you go. That's real life.
Wilhelmina (00:39.713)
What day was that? That happened on the same day, guys, right? Thursday? Yeah.
Vanessa (00:45.89)
Yes. Yeah, I've had our tonsils out on Thursday. Yep. Yep. So yeah.
Lauren (00:45.951)
Thursday was Sam. Yeah.
Teri (00:47.892)
Yeah.
Lauren (00:50.345)
I I kept saying, I kept saying it's got to be a full moon. It wasn't, but then I was like, I wish I was somebody that paid attention to any of the like, was mercury rising or like what was happening in the universe? Right? was a strange week last week.
Vanessa (00:58.24)
moon faces. Well today we're going to be talking about celebrity comebacks. I feel like we're tying in like our recent 90s, we're in the 90s having a comeback. So we're going to be talking about celebrities and their redemption arcs. We all love a good, you know, celebrity story. Somebody either fell out of favor because of something that they did or maybe they just weren't as popular anymore and now they're making a comeback. So we're going to talk about
Wilhelmina (00:59.723)
Retrograde, yeah.
Teri (01:00.521)
Yeah.
Vanessa (01:26.348)
that but before we get into it let's do our four minute faves. Terry do you want to start us out today?
Teri (01:31.37)
Sure. My fave happens to be very much in line with our topic today. And it is the Charlie Sheen two part series documentary on Netflix. I think it's just called Charlie Sheen. I'm not sure, but it's just going to Netflix. It's right there. It's top of the thing. Yeah, it just came out a week or two ago. Full disclosure. I have watched part one and I plan to watch part two in the next couple of days. But part one was captivating enough.
Wilhelmina (01:45.269)
it is too. Yeah. If you have Netflix, it's, you're gonna see it. It's like right there at the top.
Lauren (01:50.005)
It's on that front page,
Vanessa (01:53.454)
and asked when it came out.
Teri (02:01.342)
that I'm interested to watch part two. And my knowledge of Charlie Sheen, he really hit it big when I was young, like when we were younger. So I feel like growing up like, Charlie Sheen. And I really felt like I knew Emilio Estevez because of the Mighty Ducks movies better and knowing that they are brothers. It's an ode to the 80s and the excess of like the partying. He was best friends with Nicolas Cage. There's so much
Lauren (02:10.943)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (02:18.305)
Brett Pack.
Vanessa (02:19.32)
Mm.
Lauren (02:22.293)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (02:30.431)
The Brat
Teri (02:31.338)
Yes, the Brad Pack. There's so much family history from, you know, his dad was Martin Sheen, who is really well known, you know, well before, you know, in generations past. And there's just so much that he has been through and multiple redemption arcs in terms of his comeback stories. I mean, there was many that came through the movies and he was really just so huge in the 80s. I don't think I fully understood how.
Wilhelmina (02:50.433)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (02:50.516)
Yeah.
Teri (03:00.148)
huge he was. think anyone who was a teen or young adult in the 80s would probably say like, I need to ask my sister-in-law is actually who were teens in the 80s. Just in terms of how big he was at the time. I he was like the number one dude in terms of movies and pop culture. And then he had multiple redemption stories and then was on two and a half men. And that when he was on two and a half men, that sitcom, that was like his seventh comeback. mean, he had done many, comebacks. Yes.
Lauren (03:21.087)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (03:26.325)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (03:26.43)
Yeah.
Vanessa (03:27.886)
That's how I best know him is from that show. Like when I think that that's, yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (03:30.131)
Yeah, and he's had come back since then too. This most recent one doing this documentary and like putting it all out there.
Teri (03:30.76)
Leading up to that. Yes, it's, yeah. Yes, it's amazing he's still alive. So he's in it. And I haven't gotten to part two yet where I Denise Richards, his ex-wife, he also has a daughter with his high school sweetheart who's 40 years old. He's a grandfather and has his oldest daughter is 40. He has a very lengthy, complex history. The only thing that's weird is that
Vanessa (03:38.422)
He's in the documentary. They're interviewing him in the documentary.
Lauren (03:41.255)
It's all him. Yeah.
Lauren (03:47.017)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (04:00.144)
One brother, not Emilio Estevez, is in it being interviewed. John Cryer, who was on Two and a Half Men, was being interviewed. He even says, I was hesitant to sign up and agree to this because this is the MO that Charlie Sheen has, as he always lands on his feet. And am I contributing to that by this documentary is another form of him being successful and making this comeback when he has done a lot of people a lot of damage. But Emilio Estevez, who I wanted to hear from, is not in it at all.
Wilhelmina (04:10.655)
Vanessa (04:15.438)
Mm.
Wilhelmina (04:24.641)
That is interesting.
Lauren (04:25.193)
Fascinating.
Teri (04:28.926)
and says he declined to be interviewed. I was telling my husband this and he Googled it and he said, it's because my sweet, husband, he goes, it's because he just wanted Charlie Sheen to have the spotlight. So he declined to be interviewed. Like, I don't think so. That was cute. He loves Mighty Ducks. I'm like, no. I think there's a lot of sibling jealousy there too.
Wilhelmina (04:42.465)
Hmm
Lauren (04:43.229)
Hmm, probably. It's not that simple.
Wilhelmina (04:46.215)
Smells... mmm... that's cute.
Vanessa (04:46.969)
That's cute. That's cute. It's real cute. Yeah, I'm sure there's, I was gonna say family stuff, yeah.
Lauren (04:54.485)
Ha ha.
Teri (04:56.926)
because it tracks that in it too, yeah, in terms of their careers and how they tracked and took off and all of that. So very watchable, you know, while you're folding laundry, hanging out. So Charlie Sheen, yeah, yeah. Yeah, how about you, Wilhelmina?
Lauren (05:00.51)
Yeah.
Lauren (05:08.969)
Yeah, I've heard great things. It's on my watch list. So I'm glad you've started that.
Wilhelmina (05:17.569)
Well, I stayed up late last night watching a movie that I really wanted to have be one of my faves. And one, I didn't finish it because it just got too late. And I was like, this is not going to be a fave. And I was so disappointed because I was so hopeful. And I was like, I got to watch this because I got to have it as my fave. And Owen's like, you're just wanting to watch the movie. I'm like, that's valid. I am wanting to watch the movie. So I pivoted and am now doing an app instead.
Vanessa (05:30.806)
Aww.
Lauren (05:31.958)
Teri (05:46.6)
Wait, wait, wait, what was it that you watched last night?
Wilhelmina (05:47.423)
that, it was called All, All of You with Brett Goldstein. And yeah, and it's on Apple. And Brett Goldstein, anyone who watched Ted Lasso or Shrinking. Yeah, I love him too. And it's interesting. I actually was gonna pitch it as a podcast idea. The storyline is about like a, when Harry met Sally type of thing. So like friends from like, and yet there's like a futuristic pivot.
Lauren (05:52.749)
I've heard about that. Yeah.
Lauren (05:59.325)
I love him. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (06:11.582)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (06:16.52)
where there's a test where you can meet, you can take a test and get matched with your soulmate. And so some people do it, some people don't. And so then these friends, they're friends and kind of obviously a little romance, but then she's matched with someone else. So it plays it to the story. So it's a good, great concept. Yes. I mean, maybe we'll see how they pull together the last 30 minutes, but even
Lauren (06:35.701)
But you're not recommending it. I'm like, hmm. Yeah, not executed.
Teri (06:36.874)
Good concept.
Vanessa (06:38.262)
Yeah, was gonna say, the concept sounds good, but that's it.
Teri (06:40.188)
Yeah, good concept.
Wilhelmina (06:46.045)
Even with that, I'm like, it's not perfect. It's not perfect. It's fine. So, an app. So, I have one of my really good friends from, I say high school, but I've known her since like fifth grade. She is a pilot. She lives in LA and we see each other a couple times a year. She always comes in for our Oscar party. And then we see each other when we...
Minnesota for the state fair. But after having kids, it's, I became horrible at like responding to texts or I'd sort of text sporadically. And then she would want to call. And I know a lot of you understand like, we go through our whole day. It's like nine o'clock at night. And I'm like, I don't have it in me to like do a call even for someone I love. Right, right. And so
Vanessa (07:38.254)
Every day. Every day.
Teri (07:39.773)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (07:39.945)
Hehehehehe
Wilhelmina (07:41.729)
We're always trying to find ways to connect and I've never been a phone person. So that's harder because I like could be the person that like gives her a call on my way to work or things like that. But I just so we discovered this app that's called Marco Polo and it's like video chats. So you record basically record a video chat. You talk you say something like just basically text or chat. Yeah. And then you send it.
Lauren (08:07.231)
chat.
Wilhelmina (08:09.857)
And we found it because there was a group of, I don't know, this came across our Instagram feed and it was a group of guys that had been sending themselves like five minute videos to each other weekly for like years. And we were like, how cool a concept is that? Like once a week you send a five minute video just giving like a little update on your life. And I pitched it to Erica and then two of our other friends from high school. And we started doing that.
Lauren (08:24.149)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (08:39.385)
unfortunately, we're all talkers. So it ended up being like super long videos, which then of course I was like, wait a minute. Now I don't have time to watch the videos. Now I'm stressed about watching the videos, which I did have to tell them because they called me out being like, well, Amina, you're not doing it. I'm like, I can't, I don't have time to watch the videos. So, but Eric and I also will just do it on the side and we'll send a message here or there. And it has been a really fun way
Lauren (08:44.789)
Now I'm stressed about watching the videos!
Teri (08:46.602)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (09:08.789)
to connect and I'll just do it in the car. So I actually will like record a video and as I'm like driving to work, just talking about this or that, send it. And when she gets a chance, she responds and there's like no pacing of it, but it is, it's been a fun way to sort of stay in touch and do it when we're each available. So it almost feels like we're having like a in-person conversation. It's just like a little delayed.
There is like a notes app in there too. if you're watching something and you're like, I want to comment on that or whatever. So when you're recording, you can pull up like the notes app and be like, you had talked about the Charlie Sheen documentary and da da. So it's just been, I think, a fun way to stay in touch with someone where it's a little bit more intimate and personal than like texting. But if you can't do calls or FaceTimes, this is a good kind of
Lauren (10:05.427)
an in-between. Hmm, very cool.
Vanessa (10:06.498)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (10:09.771)
Vanessa, what about you?
Vanessa (10:11.918)
So, well first of all, I recently shared Toto cookies and Terry texts me. So I just wanted, we could do this more when we share something and one of us has like tried it so that you guys know that we actually do try each other's things. So Terry, can you please give your take on the Toto cookies?
Teri (10:19.166)
So happy.
Lauren (10:25.297)
yes.
Teri (10:31.176)
Yes, I got mine through my Thrive Market subscription because I happen to be due to place an order maybe the day we record it or the day after and Thrive ships quickly if you hit ship now. I have the chocolate chip and maybe the birthday cookie or something that's more like a vanilla flavored one and they taste good. I can read all the ingredients on the box like you said, which is fantastic. A good soft baked cookie. So very pleased with it.
I've tried both flavors and they are, they lived up to the hype. Yes.
Wilhelmina (11:04.097)
Okay, I'm gonna get this in my next.
Lauren (11:05.429)
I was going to say, I want to find them at Home Goods though, because that's where you said, like, I'm like, I, that is going to be my, I like want to do the Home Goods trip and find them in that aisle. I will. Yeah.
Vanessa (11:08.89)
Go, yeah, yeah, yeah. You should. There you go. But you have to report back to see if you like them. So I've shared a couple recent last couple podcasts. I've shared some snacks. I've shared some workout stuff. So I wanted to get back to sharing because I really love, you all know that I love makeup. So I was doing my makeup today and I was like, oh.
I have some things that I haven't shared yet that I've used for a long time. So my under eye makeup, you can barely read this because it's all rubbing away because I've had this for so long and it works really well. So it's the Bye Bye Under Eye by IT. IT Cosmetics. It's really good. Yes, I love the cream. Yeah. So there's a couple of things that there's that I really love. The eye cream I really love. Their face wash, which I was actually going to share. I love that. I've gone through a gajillion bottles.
Wilhelmina (11:37.9)
I'm always looking for a good under eye.
Teri (11:46.91)
I use their cream at your recommendation.
Lauren (11:49.065)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (11:53.451)
Blue.
Vanessa (12:00.533)
of their face wash and then this under eye. So if you're looking for a full cover, it's full coverage under eye and yeah, full coverage people. Yeah, this is full coverage.
Wilhelmina (12:08.801)
That's the only thing that works for our age. That's the only thing.
Lauren (12:11.733)
Full coverage. We do not need light.
Wilhelmina (12:16.459)
Create the illusion of sleep and youth instantly with one swipe. That's all I need.
Lauren (12:18.473)
Ha ha ha.
Vanessa (12:21.71)
Exactly. Yeah, so it's full coverage. It also has anti-aging. So they actually, there's actually like a component to like anti-aging. It's waterproof too, which I like. I mean, I guess waterproof in the sense of if you're sweating or I guess if you're crying, you know that too. But yes, I naturally have just dark circles. And yes, now that I'm older, they're even darker and I don't sleep well a lot. So they're even darker and they cover them really well.
Wilhelmina (12:41.675)
you
Vanessa (12:45.512)
so a little goes a long way, which is why my bottle starting to like rub off. You just need a little bit under each eye and it works really well. I've tried some like really popular that I've seen a lot of followers, other brands, and I hate them. And I keep coming back to this. Like it just doesn't work. but this works for me. I know everyone has different skin, so it might not work for everyone. So if you try it, you don't like it. I'm sorry. but I've been using it for a long time. It's not for everybody. And
Lauren (13:08.213)
It's not for everybody. Yeah.
Teri (13:10.644)
Too bad.
Vanessa (13:13.164)
I mean, obviously everyone has different skin. I feel like my skin is normal to dry, so if that helps you. But I love this stuff and it goes a long way. I personally use a beauty blender to, when I put it on, some people use brushes. I've tried that, I don't like it. I prefer a beauty blender, so that's how I use my Bye Bye under eye.
Wilhelmina (13:33.631)
And it's the brand is it. Okay. And
Vanessa (13:35.328)
IT. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's IT Cosmetic. Yeah, IT. So it's IT Cosmetics. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (13:36.563)
Yeah, IT.
Teri (13:39.325)
IT.
Wilhelmina (13:41.131)
So my under eye is really dry. And so that's my thing is like finding something that's gonna cover, also not like create. Yeah. So like, okay.
Vanessa (13:49.283)
dry it out. Yeah, yeah. I feel like this is very moisturizing. And like I said, I've tried some other popular ones. Like a lot of people talk about the Tarte one. I tried a couple of theirs and it was just a waste of money for me. And people rave about it. That's why I say it depends how your, everyone's skin is different. I've not liked any of the ones that I've tried from that brand. But I've had, like I've gone through several bottles of these. that's my share. Lauren, how about you?
Lauren (13:49.673)
Dry it further, yeah.
Lauren (14:14.389)
Very cool.
So I think I'm trying to will the fall season by some of my shares. So we went to, I know we're all like sweating today. Oh my God. It's like, yes. Okay. So I know it's 79 degrees right now in Michigan, but we went to the pumpkin patch and the apple orchard on Saturday and like sweat while we were picking out pumpkins, but we still did it. so I'm sharing my simmer pot.
Vanessa (14:21.038)
We're ready. We're ready. It's like seventy-seven today. That was me last week. was like, I'm hot.
Wilhelmina (14:23.105)
It's almost 90 degrees here today, so ring it here.
Teri (14:24.67)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (14:28.641)
I'm literally wearing a tank top.
Teri (14:28.849)
huh. huh.
Teri (14:41.706)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (14:44.694)
This
Lauren (14:46.845)
Okay, so you guys see that? It's so cute. It's little. So like you can see it's like the size of my hand. Because now that we went to the apple orchard and I have far too many apples, it's a really, really cute little thing to put on your stove and then throw in like some apple slices and cinnamon sticks this time of year and it like makes your in some water and it makes your house smell amazing. And so like when I start this time of year, now I'll do like little
Teri (14:48.074)
How cute!
Vanessa (14:48.099)
Yeah.
Lauren (15:12.233)
derivations through Christmas and make it a little bit different and add in like, I don't know, rosemary and things like that. But it's from Amazon and they show it. The person that I had been following somebody on Instagram that shared it and she was doing it as gifts. So she would buy the little glass pot and then put in dried apples, cinnamon sticks.
you know, rosemary or whatever, and then like give it as like a housewarming gift or just like a hostess gift. It's a great idea. And it's not that expensive. So we'll like we'll link it but it's really pretty sitting on your stove because it's the cleat I think because it's clear. So you can actually see the like, you know, cinnamon stick in there and things like that. And it's got a little
Teri (15:41.939)
I like that.
Wilhelmina (15:44.587)
Yeah, that's a great housewarming gift.
Lauren (16:02.997)
opening at the top so it steams out so you can keep it closed. So it just like looks really pretty. And again, if we can sort of will the fall season in by our scents, because we can't do a whole lot else right now, like my mom's are dying because it's been 80 degrees. So you know, I'm trying in little ways. So I so yes, my little simmer pot to to start the fall scents on the stove.
Wilhelmina (16:17.077)
I'm so tired of like watering my summer plants.
Vanessa (16:17.144)
I didn't get any yet.
Teri (16:17.194)
I know, I know, I know, I know, like, come on, man.
Wilhelmina (16:26.891)
So do you put that on when you're hosting or are you like, you know what I feel like today? I'm put on my simmer pot. Okay.
Lauren (16:29.705)
Yeah. Both. Both. Because you know, well, something I got from HomeGood's really cheap. You can get a whole thing of cinnamon sticks, like in those aisles Vanessa was talking about. And I just keep them in my pantry. And so you just like throw in that and chop up an apple in a full pot of water. And then if you keep it on your lowest setting, it'll last for hours. And it's safe, right? And so then sometimes I'll add some more water to it if I'm just like home for the day.
Vanessa (16:41.795)
Goods.
Wilhelmina (16:50.913)
Okay.
Lauren (16:56.425)
So it's different than, you know, if you don't feel like lighting a candle or putting on a scent aroma thing or whatever, it's just like a fun, fun little thing to do and it looks pretty. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (17:05.449)
I that.
Vanessa (17:06.446)
I like that, especially because a lot of candles are made with, and then they're always talking about how you lighting them and the smell, smells good, but you're like, nothing. I think we need to have a podcast about things that we know are not good for us, but we just don't give a fuck and we're gonna do it anyway. And we're just like, no, this is, I get it. I get it. It's not good for you, but I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm gonna keep doing it anyway, or using it.
Teri (17:10.09)
Toxic.
I know, can't do anything anymore.
Lauren (17:14.409)
Yep. Yeah.
Teri (17:22.314)
Mmm, we're gonna do it anyway.
Lauren (17:23.689)
Ooh, I love that. Write that down. We could go nuts on that.
Wilhelmina (17:25.213)
I like that. I have a lot of list of that.
Teri (17:28.735)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (17:33.537)
got my Skittles that I was eating last night with my movie being like, red dye number 40, here I go.
Vanessa (17:37.327)
Like my brain is fully matured, it's fine. gosh. All right, ladies, let's start our conversation. We're gonna be about celebrities with a good comeback story. We all love a good redemption arc. I think part of it has to do with our just fascination with resilience. So we'll talk a little bit about some of the people who come back, you know, after something maybe challenging has happened in their life. Sometimes people just kind of
Lauren (17:42.517)
Right, right, That's funny.
Teri (17:43.346)
It's fine.
Wilhelmina (17:45.921)
you
Vanessa (18:06.254)
fall out of favor just because whatever show they were on is no longer popular or time, age. Sometimes people, especially in Hollywood, we've talked about this on other episodes that women in particular get to a certain age and they're no longer the sexy siren. So they have less roles they can be in. Well, I shouldn't say that they can be in, but that they're hired to be in. Yeah, they're offered. So let's start our chat. Anybody think of someone off the top of your head that
Lauren (18:27.997)
offered.
Teri (18:29.962)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:35.436)
Good comeback story.
Wilhelmina (18:37.441)
I mean, I love a celebrity, anything celebrity where someone has, I mean, the scandal and then the redemption. And I had a lot of different examples, but I think the one that Rob Lowe, so Rob Lowe, feel like now, I mean, I feel like everyone loves Rob Lowe, right? Like he's in a couple of good TV shows. I feel like his sons now are, or at least one of them is doing acting as well.
Does he have his own podcast? I know he's on podcasts. I don't know if he has his own. But he got sober. I feel like he has gotten good roles. He's matured in a kind of... He's drifted. He's had a good... Appropriately, yes. But back in the 80s, and a lot of people may not even know this if they are just knowing Rob Lowe as he is today.
Lauren (19:13.045)
I don't know.
Teri (19:13.674)
Mm.
Lauren (19:23.687)
appropriate way.
Teri (19:25.0)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (19:34.869)
But when he got famous, he actually was like, because he was part of the Brat Pack and all the rest, was wrapped up in the world of drinking drugs and all the rest. And then in the late 80s, he had a sex tape scandal. So he ended up with two underage girls. Yeah. so, and I guess I was trying to read up on this. I guess they were 16, which I guess was still legal for a consent standpoint.
Lauren (19:51.093)
Eugh.
Wilhelmina (20:04.829)
And he was 24, but the problem was he recorded it. That was the issue.
Teri (20:09.382)
And he, in his book, I think it's an autobiography, my recollection, I read it a few years ago, side note, his book is fantastic. He alludes to it, but doesn't go into details. So he sort of talks around it vaguely and glosses over it.
Wilhelmina (20:12.907)
Yes. Love his book. Yes. Phenomenal. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep.
Wilhelmina (20:27.073)
Yeah, he definitely does. And so I kind of remember being like, oh, Rob Lowe is a little like, ugh. And then kind of he, yeah, a little skanky. And then he did kind of disappear for a little bit. He does.
Teri (20:34.826)
Little skanky. Mm-hmm. He's got that look too. I mean, he's a good looking guy, but he's got a little vibe to him that's a little sleazy. Yes. Yes. Distinguished. Yes.
Lauren (20:38.013)
the
Wilhelmina (20:43.029)
Especially like his eighties look is that like just, you know, I think now he does look a little bit more of like a refined older. Yes. But definitely he kind of had that. I feel like I see him in like St. Elmo's fire with his like saxophone and like, yeah. So, he's someone that I, actually took me a little bit longer to come around and I, Terry, I actually think it was his book that you recommended. And then I read it and I was like, well now.
Teri (20:53.908)
sleazy 80s look. Yeah.
Lauren (20:58.931)
Ha ha ha ha!
Vanessa (21:00.937)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (21:11.713)
I just love Rob Lowe. And then he started doing comedy and that was a big thing. So he changed his genre a little bit and I think he hit it big in like hitting with Tommy Boy being one of his first ones. And that kind of took his, yes, that took his career in a different way. And then all of a sudden the sex tape scandal was behind him.
Teri (21:16.585)
Yeah.
Teri (21:26.506)
I have.
Teri (21:30.28)
Yeah, he plays Chris Farley's brother, Chris Farley's brother. Yeah. Sep. Sep brother. Yeah.
Vanessa (21:31.286)
Yeah, so why do you think?
Lauren (21:33.607)
Yeah, or like, step or whatever. Yeah.
Vanessa (21:37.656)
So why do think people can forgive a story like that?
Lauren (21:41.909)
That's such a good question.
Teri (21:43.962)
I think people like hope and the possibility that it's never too late to change. And even when it seems that people have been way overboard or totally crossed the line and there's no coming back, when we see people come back years later or months later or whenever, I think that instills hope in other people that no matter how old you are, no matter what you go through, there's still a chance.
Wilhelmina (21:47.805)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Teri (22:12.436)
that you might have a second act or a third act. And one thing I thought about when we were prepping for today's podcast is the one-liner that us psychologists have been trained to say if we were ever to testify or be asked about a potential individual's propensity or inclination to do something again or commit a crime again. And the one-liner is the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Because true
Wilhelmina (22:38.709)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (22:40.009)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (22:42.922)
Sustaining change is really hard for people and true change is very small and incremental. And I think that most of us, whether we know that based on the research or we know that on a visceral personal level, we know change really is hard. So when we see these stories, we think, but it's possible and you never know what could come, what could happen in the future.
Wilhelmina (23:01.502)
possible.
Wilhelmina (23:06.239)
And I think, I think also the idea of like forgiveness. So these people can go, you can make mistakes, big public headline mistakes. And if you show through behaviors, if you kind of give it time, if you act accordingly, like the idea that you can be forgiven, we can be forgiven, I think it gives us all hope that
Vanessa (23:06.35)
Go ahead.
Wilhelmina (23:34.411)
We're all human, we can make mistakes and people can be forgiven for them, I think is part of the hope, right?
Vanessa (23:42.733)
I was looking at kind of what makes us forgive someone versus not someone else. And so I was looking at things like attribution theory. So we are much more likely to forgive someone if whatever they've done is external. So we might say, they were using drugs because they were a childhood star and they've been through all this trauma. So you're much more likely to forgive someone who's had a background like that, experienced that because it wasn't their fault, right?
Lauren (23:48.565)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (23:52.319)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (23:58.409)
Yeah.
Vanessa (24:10.944)
versus somebody where it's an internal flaw characteristic. So somebody who's just a shitty person. You will be less likely to forgive them, right? We can all think of people like that.
Teri (24:17.951)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (24:22.792)
I also think we're quicker to forgive people who, speaking of attribution errors, who resemble us in any way. Similar background, similar SES or ethnicity, life circumstances, anything that we can, if we can find ourselves in the other, we're more likely to forgive, yeah.
Lauren (24:31.145)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (24:31.447)
For sure.
Vanessa (24:41.42)
Absolutely. And that's part of why we forgive, because we know as human beings that at some point we've made a mistake in our life, right? And you want, it makes you feel better knowing that if you did something, even if it wasn't to the same kind of level as this person, that people would forgive you and look for the positive in you. And so even if we don't do the same thing, we like that idea that people would forgive us for something that we've done.
Lauren (24:41.818)
Right, if we can relate.
Teri (24:50.622)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (25:10.388)
And especially in Hollywood, as I was saying, there's a lot of these similar stories where they got into this scene and we can think of like Christina Ricci, like so many of these actors who became very famous, very young and were around a lot of things that most people their age weren't and got into things. Drew Barrymore is another one, right? I mean, she's a great, talk about a compact story, example of.
Lauren (25:28.745)
Yeah. Yep.
Teri (25:29.289)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (25:30.475)
Yeah.
Teri (25:31.785)
Yeah.
Vanessa (25:36.34)
having been in the limelight too early and exposed to things that other people wouldn't and then that maybe that led to poor choices. And so we can kind of see that and say, okay, well, that wasn't entirely their fault because they're in these situations.
Lauren (25:52.82)
And I think the willingness to be vulnerable. When you asked about like, why are we willing to forgive? Like, it's a lot easier to forgive somebody that can like fall on the sword and be like, I messed up and here's how I messed up and here's what you write. Like, and that's true in our day to day life for sure. But definitely with people that we have, we don't know personally celebrities, but we feel like we can relate to in some way if they have that ability to recognize the vulnerability of the human experience and that they, you know,
Teri (25:57.482)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (25:57.484)
Mm-hmm, that's a good one.
Vanessa (26:05.238)
Yeah, absolutely.
Lauren (26:22.239)
they were vulnerable in whatever way. makes it so much more, number one, relatable because I think we, whether we're good at being vulnerable or not, when you see somebody express vulnerability, it's certainly relatable and we can empathize with that. But then it makes it just so much easier to forgive the person because they're not trying to say, I didn't do anything wrong. I don't know why I haven't been in the limelight all these years, right? It just makes them much more likable.
Wilhelmina (26:43.104)
Right.
Vanessa (26:43.234)
Absolutely.
Lauren (26:50.939)
and that increases our ability to forgive.
Teri (26:53.45)
And it's the accountability, like the accountability piece that you're willing, you know, the only words you should ever say when you're apologizing is, I'm sorry, hard stop. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Wilhelmina (26:53.855)
You know, yes.
Lauren (27:02.771)
Yeah, not but not.
Wilhelmina (27:02.995)
Mm-hmm. That's it. That's it.
Vanessa (27:04.066)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (27:07.649)
Well, and this summer, my husband and I watched or started to watch, should say, the Pee Wee Herman documentary. Did anyone else watch this? of someone who fell way far out of favor, right? And I was just a little bit intrigued by it. I didn't know if I needed to watch it, but I was like, he was such a presence in our child, like that.
Lauren (27:15.221)
now I heard about that. I know. Yeah.
Teri (27:15.716)
no.
Vanessa (27:15.971)
Yeah.
Lauren (27:21.78)
way.
Lauren (27:34.844)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (27:35.301)
of our childhood. I didn't ever love him. I wasn't a huge Pee-wee Herman fan, but it still was like, We started to watch it and we stopped, we went to bed, and we never went back. I think we both had a very similar reaction. It touches on this authenticity piece where he was a weird guy. Even in the interviews, he was very
Like even the people who did it said he was very closed off and he would sort of give you something, but then he'd like joke and you're like, wait, was he being authentic? Was he not being authentic? He would say, right. And it was just, it was a little off putting and strange and made sort of, it was like an ick to watching it where I was like, I feel bad that he clearly had a rough life, like especially the second half of it. And then he did die. He died.
Lauren (28:00.372)
I closed off.
Vanessa (28:08.59)
I can see in character.
Teri (28:10.58)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (28:28.553)
very soon after doing this documentary. And I think he was trying to be authentic and trying to open up, but that, that he just couldn't do it. And then that left this, yes. And I was like, nope, no redemption here for me. I mean, I just sort of was like, no, it doesn't ring true.
Teri (28:37.29)
There's something missing. Yeah.
Vanessa (28:45.262)
Yeah, I mean, think some celebrities have made a comeback and I mean, to be quite honest, I don't think they really deserve it. And I think time, I think that's another thing. I think with enough time, some things kind of just feel a little, you forget, you're just like, I guess maybe it wasn't that big a deal. right? Again, depends on what it is, know, especially if it's like shitty behavior that was like maybe specific to like their situation, like, you know, like cheating on your spouse. Like, of course that's not.
Wilhelmina (28:49.633)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (29:09.929)
Yeah.
I was just going to say in the sports world, Tiger Woods, he made a lot of stupid personal decisions. But when he started to come back, you could appreciate his athleticism and his skill as an athlete. And he really separated himself from that personal side of him. And so it's like, OK, you can root for him as the athlete. You can still say what he did in his personal life. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:13.985)
Yep.
Teri (29:15.294)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (29:20.073)
Right.
Teri (29:31.786)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (29:37.226)
Right. He can be a shitty husband, but still be a good golf player. And he didn't do anything that was, at least based on the information we have available, he didn't do anything that was overtly malicious. He had marriage problems that a lot of people. Yeah, they're both adults.
Lauren (29:50.815)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (29:53.359)
Yeah, so I people often forgive that. Like same thing with you guys want to be brought up Jude Law. He's in that show. And when you did the first thing that popped into my mind was like he turned on his wife with a nanny, but then he disappeared for a while and now he's back in the show. Right. And I was like, and you kind of like, I mean, I remembered it just because I remember that story. But I think a lot of people probably forgot about that story because it was a very isolated story that was specific to like his relationship.
Wilhelmina (29:53.729)
you
Wilhelmina (29:59.457)
Hmm... mhm...
Teri (29:59.528)
Yeah.
Lauren (29:59.702)
yeah, with the nanny.
Teri (30:03.656)
Yeah.
Lauren (30:05.855)
With the Nanny. Yep.
Teri (30:08.072)
Now he's back.
Wilhelmina (30:15.637)
I always, Jude Law and the Nanny, those two go hand in hand. But here's the thing, I like Jude Law as I'm watching him and have no interest in him as a person. So in terms of like my kind of like opening my heart to him, I'm like, nope. So there's one where I'm like, nope, I feel like he would do that in a heartbeat again, but he's a good actor and he's hot, so I'll watch you.
Vanessa (30:21.476)
Hahaha!
Lauren (30:30.132)
Yeah.
separating.
Vanessa (30:37.367)
Yeah.
Teri (30:37.62)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (30:44.437)
but I'm not gonna, I don't know. I'm not rooting for you, I don't think.
Teri (30:48.554)
Vanessa has a good one.
Vanessa (30:50.698)
Yeah, so I think I was going to say if we transition sometimes we've been talking a lot about comebacks from, you know, maybe something that we did that, you know, that the actor athlete celebrity did something that was not favorable. But sometimes, you know, celebrities have a good comeback and nothing to do with what they did. And so when I was thinking of this, I thought of Pam Anderson. And not only is she did is it a comeback? I mean, this is a reinvention of this woman. So she was well known for being on Baywatch.
Lauren (31:10.197)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (31:14.559)
Yes.
Teri (31:15.124)
Hmm.
Vanessa (31:19.566)
That's all I have to say, Baywatch. Red bathing suits, right? And she also is very well known for being in a relationship with Tommy Lee, sex tape. And she was basically Playboy. These are all words that when you thought of Payne Anderson, she was like a bombshell. She had a very, very sexualized image. The outfit she wore, her appearance, it was all very sexualized. And then she kind of
Wilhelmina (31:20.577)
Red bathing suit, blonde, big boobs. There we go.
Teri (31:21.098)
All when we were, yes. Yes.
Lauren (31:21.166)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (31:28.554)
I'm Tommy Lee.
Wilhelmina (31:37.055)
Yeah, sex symbol of like the 90s.
Teri (31:39.114)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (31:49.443)
disappeared, right? You we talked about this where, you know, she was at a certain age. Hollywood just doesn't see women as the kind of the bombshell anymore. And she has made such an amazing comeback. So she did The Last Showgirl, which rave reviews. She also did Naked Gun, The Naked Gun with Liam Neeson. And on top of doing really well in these films that are very, very different than Baywatch,
She's also, her aesthetic has changed very much. So she's basically like very minimal makeup, very different from her kind of image from back in the days of Baywatch. And so it's really nice, I think, to see someone like that have this amazing comeback where she didn't do anything wrong. mean, literally, she did nothing wrong. I mean, I guess you could say the sex tape, but again, there's a lot of scandal there. It wasn't her fault, right? Right, yes.
Teri (32:19.754)
Hmm?
Lauren (32:20.115)
Yeah.
Lauren (32:37.45)
Yeah.
Lauren (32:41.673)
Well, maybe a little overexposed, but...
Wilhelmina (32:45.715)
Literally.
Vanessa (32:47.168)
But her be able to find her niche in Hollywood now as, you know, an older woman. I think she's in her 50s. Is she in her 50s? Yeah, woman in her 50s. And basically with a I just don't give a shit attitude. Right. And, you know, people are raving about her. I know she's done some stuff on Broadway stuff. So I love her story and I love that she's made this, you know, reinvention of herself.
Lauren (32:51.625)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (32:59.082)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (33:06.942)
I do too.
Wilhelmina (33:08.629)
Yeah, and isn't she dating Liam Neeson now? I don't know, I don't know. I think they're having fun. I think they're having fun maybe laying it up.
Lauren (33:10.825)
I was going to say, do you think that's true or was that for the movie?
Teri (33:10.868)
So no, it's all a.
Vanessa (33:12.654)
I I can't tell. I mean, that's like.
Lauren (33:15.655)
It's so cute if it is. Yeah.
Teri (33:17.468)
Yeah, we're alluding to the Liam Neeson romance. I think it's all a marketing ploy, but it's cute. Yeah.
Vanessa (33:18.304)
Yeah. I would love if they did. I would love if they did. Yeah, I don't know that it's true, but I would have loved it because his story, my goodness, his story with his wife, Natasha Richardson, that story is so sad to me. But it's like he has two boys, she has two boys. Their kids are about the same age. They're like young adults. I was like, I would love it if they were. But yeah, I wasn't convinced that they were.
Teri (33:29.267)
I know.
Wilhelmina (33:29.279)
I know his story is one.
Lauren (33:33.158)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ahem.
Teri (33:44.53)
I was for about a week and then I saw, I forgot what I saw. I saw something where I thought, this seems ployish.
Vanessa (33:51.481)
Well, now it's like this PR thing. I was like, what is with this PR news of like, you're in a movie with somebody and we're gonna, we're gonna sort of make it seem like we're together.
Lauren (33:51.507)
There's been a lot of those relationships.
Teri (33:53.31)
It was over the top. Yeah.
Lauren (33:56.469)
Hmm.
Teri (34:01.074)
It's so smart and Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper did it so well. They perfected it. mean, they and I think people that's and people used to do it long ago was very orchestrated in old Hollywood. And for what was that movie? The with with Lady Gaga. Star is Born. Yes. And they yes. And I think that revitalized that marketing strategy. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (34:05.558)
pitch perfect.
Lauren (34:06.505)
They did it the best.
Lauren (34:19.157)
shall I? Yeah.
Wilhelmina (34:19.883)
Star is born? Star is born, star is born. Shallows the song.
Vanessa (34:23.029)
such a good movie.
Lauren (34:29.418)
the idea.
Wilhelmina (34:30.112)
Yes.
Teri (34:31.612)
of concocting a romance between stars.
Vanessa (34:32.398)
But it's like they're not even, I think before in Hollywood, they would actually date each other. that was part, but they're not even dating. They're just going to these, yes, when they're, these photo apps. so they're not, so you're like, think, yeah, I mean, it's definitely working. It's definitely working. It's definitely working. Any other?
Teri (34:38.313)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (34:42.827)
They're playing up their chemistry together and they're like, we're just gonna go all out. Yeah.
Teri (34:48.298)
Why not take it all the way to the bank? It's working. Yes.
Lauren (34:50.143)
But it's working. That's the thing. We're talking about it. Like it's working. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (34:55.691)
Then you wanna watch the movie to see if they have good chemistry on the, know, well, if you hadn't seen the movie, you'd watch the movie to be like, ooh, do they have good chemistry? Like, what is this like? Yeah, sells tickets.
Vanessa (34:59.48)
Yeah.
Vanessa (35:04.206)
It's like, and it's an extension of the movie. Any other good comeback stories?
Lauren (35:12.789)
So I was thinking about, well, a couple, like the two people in Hollywood that kind of have similar sort of, I don't know, arcs in terms of how they came back, Lindsay Lohan and Robert Downey Jr. I mean, similar, you know, lots of drugs and all of that kind of stuff when they were growing up as younger stars, whatever, different kinds of things as to why they retreated from the spotlight. But when I was, I was,
Wilhelmina (35:25.055)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (35:25.502)
Yes.
Vanessa (35:25.678)
Let's get on.
Teri (35:28.66)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (35:36.564)
doing a little prep for today and reading about their stories and why they're kind of viewed similarly in terms of their path. And it's because they didn't come back and throw themselves in our faces. They came back in small supporting roles. Like she came back, her role was actually more of a primary role, but in a Christmas movie on Netflix. So like very niche, right? And he came back in a supporting role. my gosh, I forget what they said it was before he got Tony Stark.
Teri (35:49.129)
No.
Vanessa (35:56.174)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Teri (35:56.435)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (36:04.389)
and the Iron Man and whatever, he was in a couple of smaller supporting roles. I'll have to look it up. But in how that worked well for them, because then it was like, you're like seeing them just a little bit, and they're maybe doing an interview with the bigger star of the movie just a little bit, and they're not like throwing themselves in your face, and you're reminded that you really like the talent of this person. And then they can kind of roll with it and go into like these bigger projects. Kind of smart.
Vanessa (36:31.426)
Yeah, absolutely. I think people really like stories like Lindsay Lohan, because while she did have some, I think for her the bigger issue is that a lot of childhood stars don't do well into their adult, right, like their careers kind of end at some point for various reasons. And she's kind of come out on the other end looking lovely, you know, and just kind of, yeah, like it's kind of a low key comeback where like she's back, but she's not, it's not like too much, yeah.
Teri (36:31.487)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:40.149)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (36:41.821)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Teri (36:45.311)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:51.796)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (36:56.788)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (36:58.901)
Well, wanted to actually, Lauren, when you said you were bringing up Lindsay Lohan, I actually wanted to throw out the question that part of Lindsay Lohan's comeback absolutely involves whatever plastic surgery she did, which no, but no, I think this is something she looks, and here's the thing, like she did not look great. Like she had gone down this path of like tons, yeah, tons of plastic surgery.
Lauren (37:03.914)
Yeah.
Vanessa (37:14.796)
Yes. Yeah. I ain't gonna lie.
Lauren (37:15.061)
Yeah, it does. No, I know she looks really good. Yeah
Teri (37:18.41)
She looks good. Yeah, she looks really good.
Lauren (37:25.077)
She looked a little rough.
Vanessa (37:26.316)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (37:26.442)
Yeah, drugs.
Wilhelmina (37:28.831)
Like all of that, like I remember watching that Christmas movie and this was before she had whatever surgery. And I actually was like, I don't know if I can watch it. It's just uncomfortable to watch like all of, like she just, and I actually always liked Lindsay Lohan. I love the parent trap. I thought she actually was a pretty talented actress. But all of that plastic surgery is just like, it's just, and then my friend told me to watch her other Christmas movie that came out like, was it last Christmas or the Christmas before? And I watched it, I'm like,
Lauren (37:34.229)
Yes.
Lauren (37:38.655)
Like uncomfortable. Yeah.
Teri (37:46.847)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (37:47.156)
Yeah!
Wilhelmina (37:58.517)
What did she do to her face? It's like all undone. Like whatever she did, I'm like, she undid it all. And I think that is part of hers is that she literally erased some of what was the issue. Like, I don't know.
Lauren (37:59.872)
I know. Looks really good.
Vanessa (38:00.175)
Thank
Teri (38:04.372)
She found some good people.
Teri (38:08.734)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (38:12.851)
Yeah.
Teri (38:13.706)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (38:18.402)
Yeah, don't think I saw her in between, because I never watched that movie. So I don't think I saw her in between. But that's interesting that you say that she was overdid it and now. I mean, I think that's.
Lauren (38:18.645)
But if you-
Lauren (38:28.053)
Well, but in general, just sounds like they're healthier too. Like, I mean, she took a different like route to look healthier, but like sometimes when these people come, come back, they really have truly taken care of themselves in a way that again, if we go back to sort of the beginning of the conversation and just be like having empathy and relating, like it feels really good to watch somebody overcome something and accomplish a goal because it makes you feel like you could do that in whatever your, you know, world is.
Wilhelmina (38:33.055)
out.
Teri (38:33.502)
Yes.
She doesn't look drugged out.
Vanessa (38:38.605)
Yeah.
Teri (38:55.401)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (38:55.925)
And so yeah, there is this sense of, yeah, she looks healthier now how she got there, but like there were things that she had to do to get herself back into that kind of position. And so maybe that's a little bit of a part of it.
Vanessa (39:10.018)
I watched some, I don't know if it was a video clip, but she was getting ready to do something. And so they were just interviewing her while she was getting ready. And she spent the whole time talking about being a mom, like they were interviewing her and it was just kind of sweet to, and again, who knows, maybe it wasn't real, but it seemed real. And she was just talking about, she was a mom, she was talking about her son and how that's changed her. And I think there's something about that whole story for her that she got married to this guy who's not, I mean, he's wealthy, right? But like, he's not, I mean, I don't know who he was, but right, you never heard of this guy before.
Lauren (39:19.273)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I think so, yeah.
Lauren (39:35.56)
Yeah.
But she also doesn't live here anymore. She like lives over where India or wherever he's from. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:40.917)
Mm-mm.
Vanessa (39:42.227)
And she has a son. Yeah, and she has a son. So she's got this, yeah, it's like a good story because she's, you know, she's done some of the things that, you know, the normal things that normal people do, right? Get married, have a kid. And, you know, here she is being interviewed and she's spending most of her time talking about her son. So it was just kind of a cute, yeah, story.
Teri (39:43.476)
Hmm.
Teri (40:00.84)
I also think there's a difference between individuals whose downfall is related to drugs and alcohol versus not. So I think, yeah, I do. think that people, those of us who've known, most of us have people who have either stopped drinking or stopped if they were, if they had alcohol use disorder or if someone had stopped using drugs, they, their physical appearance improves so dramatically, so quickly that they look healthier. And I also think that
Wilhelmina (40:08.449)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I agree.
Lauren (40:08.597)
That's a good point.
Lauren (40:23.775)
Yeah, that's true. Yep.
Teri (40:28.688)
drug, some type of drug use or alcoholism impacts, usually we can reach out and think of somebody we've known personally, whether it's a family member, a friend, a neighbor, a childhood friend, someone you still follow on Facebook that you went to high school with or something we that touches everybody's lives either very directly or at least at a distance. And I think when we can see people get sober and abstain and overcome that, that feels
Lauren (40:34.921)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (40:35.563)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (40:35.576)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (40:52.566)
Yeah.
Teri (40:55.402)
really good and maybe gives you hope for people in your life who might have those similar struggles or that you might be aware of that. So I do think there seems to be a difference when there is character flaws or true pathologies like pedophilia, like if someone's a pedophile versus they got into drugs. Yes. Yes. Right. Like, did he ever come back? I hope not.
Wilhelmina (40:59.648)
Right.
Vanessa (41:09.102)
That's one of those kind of that I was saying earlier, like that's a like an intrinsic personal flaw that you're like, there's no forgiving that.
Lauren (41:14.506)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (41:19.167)
No. No. No. There's no redemption arc for that.
Lauren (41:19.505)
No. No. No, we're not forgiving that. No. Or what about when things have been done to you? Those are some of the best, like, you guys remember Monica Sellis and she got stabbed on the tennis court? Or Nancy Kerrigan? those, like, then were like really rooting for their redemption. Like this was like, this came out of nowhere. Talk about external factors.
Vanessa (41:19.916)
I cannot imagine, like that's one of those things where I feel like there's no way, there's no redemption arc. I mean, yeah.
Wilhelmina (41:29.793)
Mmm.
Teri (41:33.61)
Yes, she got stabbed. Yes. Yes.
Wilhelmina (41:37.889)
No.
Lauren (41:46.326)
like and they were injured doing the thing that they love and they were famous for. I think everybody can get behind that like sort of redemption art and that happens you know unfortunately in the world of sports celebrity. But those are like those are like really fun ones to root for that I don't think anybody would question you rooting for those kinds of people.
Vanessa (41:53.027)
Yeah.
Vanessa (42:06.188)
or the spouse who got cheated on. So one of the ones that I had mentioned earlier, and I think we've seen this a bunch of times. So Shania Twain, lost her voice about 15 years ago. And like literally around the same time, she found out that her husband and her best friend were cheating. Like her husband was cheating with her, with the best friend. And you know, we, and she's now, she made a recovery with her voice. She's been, she's had some Las Vegas residencies. She ended up finding love actually with the best friend's husband, which is interesting.
Lauren (42:08.371)
Yeah. yes.
Lauren (42:34.575)
Which is crazy. Swip swap. A little little swap. It's worked though. I think they're all still together.
Teri (42:35.518)
Like they.
Vanessa (42:35.79)
Yeah, that's interesting. But I could see. Yeah, no, they are. I mean, she has described her marriage with her second husband as a very healthy relationship. And I could see you were both hurt by these people you cared for. They obviously knew each other. It was like her best friend's husband. There's like a bonding component to it. Like, I still think it's weird, but I can see.
Wilhelmina (42:38.785)
Let's just swap. Let's just do a swap. Shall we?
Lauren (42:50.453)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (42:55.125)
Bonding, yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:00.159)
Not, honestly, not the only story I've heard of like.
Teri (43:04.714)
Greg Norman. Greg Norman and his ex-wife, swapped. The golfer who's probably like 80 right now, but they swapped.
Lauren (43:04.757)
It's a little trauma bonding.
Vanessa (43:05.794)
Yes, there is someone else and I couldn't think of it. like, there's some other celebrity that this happened.
Vanessa (43:13.038)
Oh, wait, who's the news people, the two news people who? Yes, yes. And then the husband and the wife. Yes, yes. Yes. Oh, that I don't know. Even the other, the cheated on. Right, but the spouses, but those spouses.
Lauren (43:16.574)
TJ Holmes and Amy Roback. Yes. And then Andrew Shue. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:17.237)
Yes!
Wilhelmina (43:23.113)
Yes, and her shoe, yeah.
Teri (43:24.074)
Are they all still together?
Lauren (43:25.789)
Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
Teri (43:30.708)
Okay, good luck.
Lauren (43:32.051)
Well, TJ Holmes and Amy Robach are definitely together. They have a podcast together.
Wilhelmina (43:33.683)
Fuck.
Teri (43:34.804)
I mean, like establishing a relationship under the premise of infidelity. It's a great solid way to start your relationship.
Wilhelmina (43:39.189)
Based on that, right? Why do you always think I'm cheating? Well, I mean.
Lauren (43:45.446)
Ha!
Vanessa (43:45.454)
Although, know, so thinking of speaking of cheating and so do you guys remember Leanne Rimes and I cannot think of her. Are you okay?
Teri (43:55.804)
Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Sibyrin.
Lauren (43:55.967)
Ceiling's falling. We're good, we're good. my god.
Vanessa (43:58.159)
I said, yes, so that they were the cheaters. well, they were that. Yeah, yeah, he was cheating.
Lauren (44:03.337)
Yeah.
Teri (44:04.084)
He was a cheater, right? Every time I see her, I look at LeAnn Rimes, I'm like, she was?
Lauren (44:10.131)
No, she was married too. Yeah. Yeah. She was married to, I mean, I believe they met because he was a backup dancer. And the reason he's from Michigan. There's a reason I know who this person is, but yeah, she was married at the same time too.
Wilhelmina (44:11.615)
No, yes.
Vanessa (44:12.706)
I can't remember if she was, he was definitely married to the Real Housewives lady.
Teri (44:14.44)
He was definitely married. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:18.155)
Yes!
Vanessa (44:29.164)
Yeah, so then, but they're still together. So that's, so that's why I say sometimes.
Teri (44:31.358)
They are, but when I see them, think bad karma, you all are doomed. It's a matter of time. That dude is going to cheat on you.
Lauren (44:31.605)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (44:36.44)
Well, she, so it's interesting. So here's a not great redemption. So she was on, so she was on the Masked Singer. Have any of you watched that show? Okay, so she was on the Masked Singer. Her voice is amazing and the show is cool because you don't see them the whole time. So she sang the whole season. Her voice is amazing. I mean, she was so good, LeAnn Rimes. So she wins the season. So she wins the season and
Wilhelmina (44:40.083)
No redemption from Terry.
Teri (44:41.866)
It might take 35 years, but it's going to happen.
Lauren (44:45.951)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (44:59.028)
This is Leanne Rimes, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she is talented.
Lauren (45:00.948)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (45:05.046)
A lot of times when I've seen, know, the reason why I like that show is because there's actually a lot of people who, you know, have lost popularity and more singers who go through the show. And a lot of times they come out the other end, they win, and now they're super popular again. Like Vanessa Hudgens was on there. I mean, some big names have been on the show. And so she comes out the other end. And I remember being like, where did she disappear to? And then I remembered, the story. And she hasn't done anything since. So even though she has this beautiful, amazing voice, she
Wilhelmina (45:24.907)
Hmm.
Teri (45:32.01)
He's holding her down. He won't let her.
Vanessa (45:33.967)
I just, think people, I don't know, but I think people just can't, like there are certain situations where people just cannot forget what done. Yeah, like I wonder if that's what it is. Cause I'm like, her voice is, it's, I forgot how amazing her voice was and she was singing songs from different genres. So it wasn't just country. And I was like, man, that voice is amazing. When they unmasked her and I was like, that's Liam Rimes. was like, why isn't she doing anything? And then I was like, oh, well.
Teri (45:38.334)
He's got to be the star. Yeah. I'm not a fan of him. Yeah.
Lauren (45:41.375)
she's potentially not marketable. Something.
is incredible.
Wilhelmina (45:50.165)
Yeah, it's really good.
Lauren (45:58.729)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:01.099)
Do remember Coyote Ugly, the movie Coyote Ugly? I think it's Leanne Rimes who does a lot of the singing like, yes, yes, yes, which by the way was such a good soundtrack.
Lauren (46:01.664)
Well, I loved that movie.
Teri (46:03.049)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (46:03.318)
Yes. I love that movie.
Lauren (46:06.591)
Her entire, the entire soundtrack is her. Such a good soundtrack.
Teri (46:09.588)
Wow.
Vanessa (46:09.613)
Yes. Oh, yeah. Paper. I guess paper. I know. wish they had a... I was like...
Wilhelmina (46:13.761)
Do you guys remember my Coyote Ugly themed Batch Rock party? like... Yeah. Not themed, but we went to like whatever, not themed, like, yeah, I was like, by the way, let me clarify.
Teri (46:16.714)
I remember, I remember the beginning. I remember part of it. Yeah.
Vanessa (46:17.742)
We did, yeah. Oh yes. I remember the beginning.
Lauren (46:18.319)
yeah, yeah. We went to a coyote bug ugly bar.
Teri (46:25.867)
theme.
Vanessa (46:28.078)
i remember the beginning i know it started i don't remember the ending i remember there was a feather boa crown
Teri (46:29.588)
I remember the beginning. I know how it started. Yeah.
Lauren (46:31.817)
Ha ha ha.
Wilhelmina (46:35.105)
There was, I said, I said, all I want is this and I wanted a boa and I was like, I want a boa for my bachelorette party. It was huge. Huge. Yes. Not like I would be doing that today. You know, one person that I had on there was Winona Ryder. And this was like a, so she of course, huge in eighties, nineties. And then,
Lauren (46:37.054)
Lotta boas.
Vanessa (46:38.126)
Thanks
Teri (46:42.548)
Coyote Ugly was very big around that time when you got married. Yes, there was a time period. had a moment. Right, right.
Lauren (46:45.331)
I was gonna say there was a time period for it, yes.
Vanessa (46:45.74)
Yes. Yeah, well, there was the bar. Yeah.
Lauren (46:52.533)
HNNNN
Lauren (46:58.197)
Mmm.
Vanessa (46:58.698)
that's a good one.
Wilhelmina (47:05.161)
I don't know if you guys remember this, but she got caught like shoplifting. And I think hers, right.
Lauren (47:07.091)
Yeah. Shoplifting. Yeah, from like Nords...Saxx or something. Yeah.
Teri (47:07.786)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And not something small, too, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (47:09.319)
that's right. Yes. Yes.
Wilhelmina (47:15.519)
is something small. And I was thinking about what you said, Terry, where there were no drugs and alcohol involved. Like, this was not something where she's like, I was coked out of my head and da-da-da. But we also know, I mean, theft like that is really common. I see it all the time in my practice. These sort of the little, like, you just pick something up at a store and yep, mink. And yet I think the backlash for her was like, you are a celebrity.
Lauren (47:16.541)
Little.
Wilhelmina (47:45.227)
who has so much money, you could buy anything and here you are stealing. And she really fell out of favor for a lot of people with that. Like that was a big hit to her. But then she had her comeback with Stranger Things. And then I think that really has like kind of put her back on the map. And then of course she was in Beetlejuice, the new Beetlejuice, yeah. But I think a lot of people kind of let that go.
Vanessa (47:46.648)
Yeah.
Teri (47:46.9)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (47:54.099)
Yes.
Lauren (48:00.822)
Tiny little roll. Yeah.
Vanessa (48:09.4)
The new one.
Lauren (48:09.823)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (48:15.188)
after that.
Vanessa (48:16.046)
Yeah, because then I think again, we talked about like in the grand scheme of things, it was kind of like in the time. Yeah, like, okay, that was weird. It's almost like, well, that's weird. Why would you write you? So which is very different than some of the things you talked about, like people doing like Diddy, right? Like that is not one of those things that you will forget or, you know, let go.
Wilhelmina (48:18.847)
The time, the time. Yeah.
Lauren (48:20.521)
This is forgivable.
Teri (48:21.962)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (48:31.028)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (48:32.255)
harm to others.
Wilhelmina (48:33.43)
Yes.
Teri (48:35.978)
All
Wilhelmina (48:37.333)
I do, yeah, I think there are certain people, stories, acts that are probably under the list of like impossible, maybe I don't wanna say impossible, but very hard. Yes, very hard to come back from. I think Diddy is a very good example. I think anytime it's some sort of like something against children or underage people, I think that's a big one.
Vanessa (48:49.77)
Not likely.
Lauren (48:49.777)
improbable
Teri (49:02.419)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (49:04.947)
And I think when it doesn't involve drugs or alcohol and it's something egregious where you're like, well, if you weren't, if that's not what caused this then, but I do think that in general, when you look at all of the things done by singers, athletes, actors and actresses, there's a lot of really bad stuff that's gone on and we tend to forgive a lot of it.
Vanessa (49:31.736)
I think patterns is another one. I think when you see a pattern of something that's like has happened multiple times, it also makes it harder to forgive. So when you have some of these people like, you know, like a ditty where it's like, there's a pattern here, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (49:38.761)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (49:41.259)
Charlie Sheen.
Teri (49:42.844)
Right, right. Well, fool me once, know, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me for sticking around and, you know, and putting up.
Lauren (49:43.189)
Ha!
Vanessa (49:48.781)
Yeah. Any last minute thoughts? That was a good talk, ladies. All right. Well, thank you for joining us today. Please join us next time on The Shrinkdown.
Lauren (49:49.013)
Yeah.
Teri (49:55.284)
Yeah, thank you.
Lauren (49:55.519)
Yeah.