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The fun & fascinating stories of Supply Chain & Logistics.
Bryndis 0:03
Hi. My name is Bryndis Whitson, and you're listening to Zebras to Apples, the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. I'm here with Rajbir Bhatti, who is a professor of supply chain at Mount Royal University, and we will be talking about many different topics, and we'll just start right into it. So thank you for being here, Raj.
Rajbir 0:27
Thank you for having me, Bryndis. How are you today?
Bryndis 0:29
Really good. It's that's the thing I've loved so far about putting every 11 episodes is almost every single person, I think, every person I've interviewed has been a friend and someone that I've had you know, has a lot of passion for the industry, and that's exactly what this is all about, too, so.
Rajbir 0:50
Thank you, Bryndis, so I feel honored.
Bryndis 0:52
Mm, hmm, so tell me a little bit about your background, your career history, and what led you to Mount Royal and everything in between.
Rajbir 1:02
Okay, let's go all the way back to a small province in the North of India called Punjab. That's where the Sikh community is mostly and I was sent to a Roman Catholic school. So the first 16 years of my education was in a Roman Catholic school, just the way the education school education system in India is set up. The Catholic educational system is- they provide the best education, if you will, to date. And then I was a sports person as well. Academics has been, of course, front and center, just because my father is a retired professor of physics now he served at the university there. And my mom, she was a librarian with multiple master's degrees, one in political science, one in economics. And she finally decided to do a Masters in library and information science. So you can see the academics running there. But I was also a sports person. You know, 200 meters and 400 meters were my two best, you know, events. And I was also on the cricket team for this. In that part of the world cricket is, is, is pretty much religion, if you will. So I grew up in a very open minded society, economy, family. And then, you know, in India, as some of your listeners would know, the choices for young kids are, either you want to become a doctor or an engineer or a lawyer or something of that sort, but those limited options and everything else was, at least in those days, considered to be out of scope. So my brother, because he was a medical doctor, and I saw how hard his life was, I kind of chickened out, and I said, Okay, I don't want to get into med school, and I want to get into engineering. So my first degree was in mechanical engineering, and I'd always thought of being that mechanical engineer who would sort of work with machines, and, you know, do all the fantastic things which I never could. Then, my master's was also in mechanical engineering. In fact, that is where I found my love for supply chains. So when I went to do my PhD from the Indian Institute of Technology. You know, there's a little joke about the Indian Institutes of Technology. They say, Don't worry, if you cannot get into one of them, you still have Harvard to fall back on. Because, yeah, you know, the acceptance rate is 2% Wow. And Harvard is, I guess, nine or 10% so that little joke there, yeah, lucky enough, I could get into the PhD program. And that is around the time when this, when I sort of started dabbling with, if you will, into supply chains. Because those days early 2000s supply chain was mostly, at least in India, those days seem to be a management oriented approach to things. And the engineer that I was, you know, I was always thinking, but there must be a lot of freight movement, weight, volume, density optimization can be done. So, how about marrying the two seemingly disparate concepts of engineering and supply chain management. So my entire PhD thesis was in the area of optimizing supply chain management, supply chains, and that is where supply chains just seem to be management fields.
Bryndis 4:54
And you can actually the mechanical engineering kind of background adding into the supply chain, you can really see the systems fully in a fully different concept.
Rajbir 5:08
And that's right, you know, you remind me of systems dynamics as we used to, you know, study it those days, a concept given by Forester at MIT in the mid 70s, late 70s. He initially called it industrial dynamics, but later we realized that the concept of system dynamics can be applied to anything. So they renamed it from industrial to systems dynamics. And I had that early advantage, I must admit, that being an engineer and someone who loved numbers and data and optimization, when I looked at supply chains, I saw a huge opportunity that catapulted me, if you will, into this world supply chain.
Bryndis 5:48
It really, really, would. So, so after you got your PhD, what happened next, or what was and actually tell me, before we go, go into that, what was your thesis?
Rajbir 6:00
So my thesis was in the optimization of relationships in supplier selection. So think about it, right? We always have vendors being rated on a one to five one to nine scale. Okay, a vendor can use various KPIs. People still look at, you know, how would you rate this vendor on such and such thing? And we will say either a four or a five or a three or something like that. And my thesis to my supervisor those days was, it's a relationship. How can you discreetly quantify that on a scale? You know, either select a four or the next best option is a five, right? And between two numbers, there are infinite numbers. So can it be 4.1, 4.1.1, 4.1.1.1 and so on, so forth, right? You have infinite choices between any two numbers. My entire thesis was that this entire relationship evaluation, performance evaluation, is not discrete, and it should be treated like a fuzzy problem. So I use fuzzy logic, fuzzy sets, fuzzy mathematics to transform linguistic inputs and fuzzy modeling using multiple criteria, decision making and all of those fancy tools and those days, I mean, this was kind of new, Bryndis, in this world that people were had not sort of dabbled into this question, if you will. And the discrete models with good, bad, ugly, 12345, kind of responses versus the fuzzy models that we made, they had diametrically different results.
Bryndis 7:45
Oh, right, they would, yeah.
Rajbir 7:47
So we were convinced that human relations and, you know, quality performance, these are things that you need to look at from a different lens. And so my entire thesis was on the three PL relationship selection process, and also on the concept of four PL. Is there a four PL, who is a four PL qualified to be, you know, considered to be a four PL? And the other piece was the four PL is somebody who claims to be at a higher level in the hierarchy of things, if you will, and has the ability to integrate multiple three PLs, that an organization might have.
Bryndis 8:31
Exactly, and just before we get into a little bit more questions that are coming, sparking in my thought and a three PL, just for the two of us, are kind of fully aware where the three PL is, but not everyone is. And what is a three PL?
Rajbir 8:46
That's a good question. So a three PL is a third party logistics service, right? So initially, when the concept of outsourcing was sort of still new to the world, one of the things that was very clear to us was that there are two parties in a contractual relationship. There is the first party and the second party. Somebody who has a product or a service and somebody who needs the product or the service. Now the third party, therefore, we realized, is somebody who doesn't have to be the first or the second, but can assist the relationship between the first and the second by virtue of the fact that this party has some unique value proposition that they can bring to the conversation. Yeah. So initially it was those transportation companies. So let's say if I make widgets, I'm good at making widgets. Why should I be bothered about, you know, maintaining a fleet of trucks and moving and ensuring stuff moves from where to where, etc. So we said, okay, you know what? If there's a trucking company that has an expertise in transportation, they know how to manage weight, volume, route density, and all. So why not just outsource it to them? So they became the third party in the logistics environment. So therefore you have a 3p L, the L in that is the logistics but eventually, you know what happened. Everybody started classifying themselves as a three PL, if they were an outsourcing agent. So whether you are an accounting firm and I outsource a part of my work to you, we would still, you know, synonymously call you a three PL.
Bryndis 10:28
Right? Oh, yeah, it would be.
Rajbir 10:30
Janitorial and secretarial, anything that an organization outsources. We started calling them three, pls,
Bryndis 10:38
Huh? I didn't even... that's really kind of neat, because I never would have thought of an accounting firm or a janitorial company or anything like that as a three PL as well, but it totally is, because you're outsourcing to someone who specifically is trained in that area. Yeah. The other thing I really love, you know, about the difference in the three PLs is, the things that I would kind of showcase for some of my clients, is, when you're at a three PL, you can actually be fully specific, like be targeted for just the logistics of it. It doesn't mean, you know, and it can be any type of product, because you're the expert in housing or doing whatever in that field, as opposed to someone or another company who does products and all makes widgets and houses the widgets too.
Rajbir 11:40
Right? And think about it like this, over a period of time. There are many, many such examples, Bryndis, where the name of the company or the organization that first came up with a particular concept got stuck with or sort of started being used for the process or the service that they were providing. Think about, let's say, for example, Google now is the name of a company, or subsequently, alphabet and so and so forth. But what would it do? It would help you search. So what did, finally, eventually end up happening? The process of searching something on the internet started being called Can you Google this?
Bryndis 12:25
Yeah, it became full, it wasn't. Can you Ask ChatGPT this? Yeah?
Rajbir 12:28
Right, yeah. Similarly, chat GPT. Chat GPT is one platform. More and more people, whenever they use llms, whether Gemini or co-pilot or anything else, we just say, Let's chat. GPT it up. Yeah, so that's what happened to the three PL names as well, right? It started with the logistics firms, no doubt. But now anything we outsource, we just sometimes call it a third party relationship.
Bryndis 13:00
Okay, and then the difference between the three PL and the four PL.
Rajbir 13:05
Now the four PL, no. So going back a step three PL, because it's not a core competency. I don't want to do it myself. I'm the first or the second party. I outsource it to somebody else. And can you move these goods for me? But now we started having more and more outsourcing relationships, you know, from transportation to warehousing to distribution to custom brokers and hiring, firing, janitorial, this organization started having dozens of three PL relationships, and it became a task in itself to manage those relationships. So that is when Accenture, in 1996 around that time, they came up with the idea. Well, if you have so many three peer relationships and you don't want to get bogged down in managing all of these relationships, think of us, we are one step ahead higher on all of those three, pls. And they coined this term of a four PL, a fourth party logistics service provider. Think of a four PL as a very large three PL, yeah, and you don't have to work directly with all the three. Pls, just work with one of them, and big three PL, the so four PL, of the future. You manage all of the other relationships.
Bryndis 14:30
Okay, so you do all of the above and more.
Rajbir 14:33
So somebody created another layer between the first party and the third party, and inserted themselves, although there has been a debate about, is there a real four PL? Oh, yeah. Who is a four PL? I mean, is a four PL a very large asset free three PL, or something like that? No. So that has been under debate for quite a while. So my thesis. Back to the first question. Now, who is it four PL, and how do you select a four PL, and how does the four PL relationship with the three PLS work? And how do you, as an organization, ensure that the vision that you have about quality, about delivery, about price, is shared between the four PL and the three PL. And how do you measure this? I mean, this is very subjective. So that measurement of whether we are aligned or not required some sort of modeling. So we use mathematical models to optimize and manage and quantify that entire relationship between a four PL and a three PL and the first party. So we quite have, we had a quite a, you know, fun time playing in that space. Hardcore data analytics optimization with the so-called soft stuff. And we had good success, I would say, in those early 2000s, and in the last 25 years, a lot of work in this direction has been done, and we've seen how supply chains are pretty much like organisms. You know, they breed, they think they grow, they decay. And you have to manage these relationships pretty much like you would plant a flower or a vegetable in your garden. Then you would take care of it.
Bryndis 16:29
Exactly. And some things are annuals and some things are perennials.
Rajbir 16:36
You're already in spring in Calgary.
Bryndis 16:37
Yeah, well, and that's the other thing too, that I really think is interesting is someone who is more of a person who, when it comes to KPIs or key performance indicators, has a lot more on that kind of non quantitative. I have a lot of qualitative pieces, but, and it's always that balance of you know, it's easy to quantify some things, but personals, people's feelings or emotions are harder to quantify, and they're more of a quality. And so I think that it was a really, really kind of interesting discussion.
Rajbir 17:20
I loved my time during the PhD, because I had expertise or interest, I would say, in data analytics in those days, but then using it for a very different till that time, soft skills, subjective supply chain. Wedding of the two was an interesting thing that we explored.
Bryndis 17:44
Yeah, yeah, very cool. So, yeah, where'd you go next?
Rajbir 17:48
Oh, we love the work. You know, I had successful publications and great journals published as well. Started off with a new journal where I could bring to, you know, thought leaders from multiple countries, multiple dimensions. And so we started with the International Journal of Applied Industrial Engineering from Pennsylvania. And then I also taught at the universities in India for some time, before I moved to Winnipeg and worked with the Asper School of Business in the department of supply chain management. I enjoyed my teaching there. And around the same time, you know, talking to Dr Marcy Elliot, who was the Dean of the MBA program, we realized that we don't have a concentration, if you will, in the MBA program in supply chain management. So work with the team at the Asper school to develop some new courses and teach them. I mean, if you're Winnipeg and you are at the intersection of the main trade corridors, definitely the MBA program in one of the leading universities there should have a dedicated supply chain focus. So I worked with, you know, stalwarts like Dr Barry Prentice and Arson, and I totally enjoyed my work there, before I moved to Mount Royal University here in Calgary.
Bryndis 19:19
Right before we talk about that switch, we're talking about the University of Manitoba, because there's the transport Institute.
Rajbir 19:26
That's right, yeah, that's right. So the transport Institute is an exceptional, you know, community facing, research, facing entity that they have at the University of Manitoba, and Barry has been the director of that institute for a very, very long time. I did get to work with Terry Dugout while he worked with the University of Winnipeg leading a transportation initiative for sustainable transportation solutions for the North. So the transport Institute, and, you know, my networks there, I really enjoyed working. Was an exceptional opportunity in learning, I must say. Coming from India, I had only bookish knowledge about permafrost. I knew what it is but what it does to supply chain management, and the challenges of transportation. How do you build a road on permafrost and knowing fully well that come summer, this road is going to, you know, go away, say, $400,000 that you invest in per kilometer of road, all of that is going to go away. So what are the challenges of moving goods to the north? When I learned that, you know, it was quite an experience in humility, I must say.
Bryndis 20:51
Yeah, it really would, because there is such a difference in that kind of area, right? And logistics in the north is a whole other conversation that will Yeah, because there's so much that has to be factored in the process, exactly like you were saying.
Rajbir 21:14
And Barry Prentice. Dr Barry Prentice has been an airship person. He has always spoken about the cause for airships. He sincerely believes in this. He has designed some and he works with, you know, experts around the world, as you know, in the area of airships. It was interesting to work in his team to explore how sustainability transportation issues for the North are so critical, and what type of solutions do we have? And if airships are the solution, Barry fields, they are.
Bryndis 21:48
Exactly, well and that's exactly how I got introduced to logistics in the north, other than the northern transportation conference that the Van Horne Institute we hosted in Alaska in 2011 but that was but that was September of 2011 and then in December of 2011 we hosted a conference in Seattle with Barry and yeah, in IC polar. And it is all about airships and airships to the north and but we had, it was a very wide cross section of people for that conversation. And we really like commerce. All of those pieces were very, very fascinating, so we brought them in that kind of area.
Rajbir 22:39
Absolutely Bryndis, you know, airships have a huge potential, although the velocity is slow, and if there is cargo that can wait, that doesn't require to be shipped overnight, yeah, why not? You know, so airships have a huge value proposition in the entire scheme of things, for supply chain management.
Bryndis 23:01
Exactly one of the things that, you know, one of the people speaking was talking about at the conference, was they got a phone call saying, Is your airship ready to go? And he's like, no, sorry, not yet. And but, you know, it's almost there, but we're, we don't want to, you know, we're, we're still testing it. And they said, Oh, that's too bad, because a container ship has gone down, and the only way we can think of taking off the containers is by airship. There you go, because of the payload capacity that you would actually have to actually be able to safely, actually take everything off of there, too.
Rajbir 23:41
And think about it like this, Bryndis, the North is frozen, agreed, but melting of the snow has been happening for quite a while, right? So one day, whether it is 25 years or 50 years, we can debate on the time the snows will melt. And what is the shortest route, if you will, from Canada into China, let's say. That is, there's a huge opportunity with the let's say the port in Churchill. Yeah, Barry has been, you know, working on this for a long, long time. In certain respects, there is that angle of security as well, national security as well. That sort of kicks in with the melting of this nose. As many of your listeners would surely know, we have a cn line that goes all the way to the bar, yeah, and from and from the bar. There is an HBr line that goes to Churchill, yes, for want of you know, traffic and oblique, or for reasons related to maintenance and gradient of the railway line. That line has not been fully utilized in the last many, many, many decades. And that is another interesting conversation that we used to have when I was at Manitoba with Barry saying, well, CN has a huge set of assets, if you will, infrastructure and using the port in Churchill, with all its limitations and challenges, we agreed we can work in that direction. Churchill has the advantage of connecting us with Europe and seeing what's happening these days with the north south traffic and trade. You know, we are looking to connect ourselves to Europe, and maybe Churchill has that solution for us, which Barry has been espousing for a long, long time.
Bryndis 25:57
I think Churchill really could, and in case the lovely people at astronomic audio aren't able to kind of cut it out occasionally, you might hear my cat meowing. But that's just in case. But I think with the port of Churchill, like I remember too, when, you know, there were the really big rainstorms, and it kind of, you know, impacted a lot of the railway line. And, you know, working with people at Transport Canada, it was a really big focus for them, because they're figuring they were trying to figure out, like, how do we get the, you know, railway back working? But if we can't get the railway back working, what do we do to make sure that we get people back in, you know, get all their goods, or something like that to them, so that they're not stuck up in their remote location without access to anything before everything else freezes up.
Rajbir 27:08
You know, people are not there. We usually don't think about it like this, but it'll be interesting for your listeners audience to just grab a large cup of coffee and think about it, how people in the North get their pharmaceuticals, their their vegetables, their fruits, access to health care, especially given the fact that permafrost doesn't allow you to have permanent roads, you know, and the roads that we make winter roads, they're pretty much like Band Aid, if you will, that you apply to some greater in a road in Calgary, you know, you the band aid on a road is not going to stay. So the roads that we get to make, they don't stay, and they cannot take the type of loads, and they're not around the year, and all of those things. And the other part is there is a hidden opportunity in the port of Churchill, because if we can get our goods from Alberta to Churchill or Manitoba to Churchill, there is a huge opportunity waiting to open up for us In terms of our ability to connect to Europe. Today, our dependence on the United States is just because, well, north south trade was easy. We found that to work for us for many, many years. And thanks to the tariffs and the other things that are happening in the world these days, I think there will be a renewed, uh, interest in exploring the port of Churchill as a way to connect to Europe.
Bryndis 28:44
Definitely, I can tell that already, because the amount of conversations I've had over the last just even five weeks about that have been very substantial and lots of people are thinking about those possibilities too. So,
Rajbir 29:02
Right, yeah. So the diversity piece in our trade was kind of missing just because you know any, any system, business or otherwise, wants to go follow the path of least resistance, if you will, and we don't fault those systems for doing that. That's how nature works, but we should have been sort of cognizant of something called resilience, which we were found lacking twice in the last few years. Once during the pandemic, supply chains were designed for just in time, but they were not designed for just in case.
Bryndis 29:47
Exactly, and we really relied on just in time because we'd gone from one extreme to the other.
Rajbir 29:55
Yeah, that extreme, right? Yeah. So the entire premise of our efficient supply chains in the last 30-35 years has been built on, I know if I want goods from, say, Shanghai, coming into China, into Canada. It takes about, say, 29 days. Now that 29 can become 31,32 or 27,28 but it's always going to be in that ballpark. We never could think of a situation where we would not be able to buy or receive what we want when we'd want. And Dr Simchi Levy, he's a professor of operations at MIT, he came up with this concept in the early 2000s actually, he actually consults as well. And he designed some supply chains, resilient supply chains for Ford, using the concept of time to recover TTR time to survive TTS. He actually computed these two force supply chains to understand what happens if one node in the supply chain goes out of business for a certain number of days, which we call it a supply chain. But if I had my way, I would call it a supply Web. It's not a linear chain, right? Yeah, all the nodes that are interconnected to each other. So we started talking about this with Simchi Levy in the early 2000s about resilience in our supply chains, which the pandemic and now the Trump tariffs have forced us to think about for sure.
Bryndis 31:39
Fully, but that's a whole other concept, just as the light bulb kind of goes on, because everything really, in a way, well, everything has a supply chain, but when you put it all together, it does become a web because when you look at like the components of any like a computer, a phone and whatever, because everything has their own supply chain, but then they all feed together. It does become a web, too.
Rajbir 32:05
Think about it like this, the jacket that we were wearing. I mean, where did the buttons come from? Where did the zip come from? Where did it all come from? All of those products sometimes have to travel to a brand new country where everything gets assembled or stitched or whatever. There are six or seven countries actually. The other day, I was looking at the supply chain for some seemingly simple products, and relies on about eight to nine countries that are involved, sometimes more, in getting that product together. And it's not a linear flow. No, there are products, sub assemblies, assemblies coming from various countries, and one of them is missing. The entire product is stalled. Think about semiconductors for your cars. You know, 70% of our semiconductors we never realized were being manufactured in one country in the east. Well, why? There are certain reasons for good quality and, of course, low cost. But then semiconductors, we never thought that they could stall the manufacturing of an entire car. Yeah. So supply chains are now being fully understood. If I can say that safely, they were not fully understood in the last 30,35, 40 years. And we could argue about why or why not. But you see things only when you come to the bridge. And the first time we hit the bridge was in 2020.
Bryndis 33:41
Yeah, exactly. And that was definitely the one like that moment. It really made us fully aware of that resiliency. And then, where would you say the other you said there were two. So where would you say the other resilience?
Rajbir 33:55
The other one is January 2025, then you know a friend, a neighbor in the south of Canada decided suddenly to say, it's all going to be about me and myself here in and after I shall dictate, we will not go by established norms of global trade. WTO is practically finished, done and dusted. Tariffs were imposed, left, right and center in the morning, you would have one number in the afternoon, which would go to another number of percentage by the evening, it would be a totally different use bite. So there is chaos, there is confusion, there is uncertainty, which is all things that supply chains don't like.
Bryndis 34:43
Not exactly, and it's like it's for those of us in Canada, but it's also, you know, around the world that are feeling that right.
Rajbir 34:53
And supply chains, you know, I usually talk to my students, sometimes about global supply chains, and I said, There is no such thing as global supply chains. Supply chains are global. You don't have to have, you don't have to have an adjective, you know, preceding the word supply chain. So it's a very well oiled system, interconnected entities around the world that have over decades of experience in collaborative work, realized that not any economy in the world will have all the right ingredients for a successful supply chain. So why don't we all come together and share our expertise. You know, after the Second World War, this is what we learned, that we have to work together for success. So global supply chains, you know, I would say, let's not have the world global preceding supply chain prefix to supply chain, supply chains are global. You tinker with one aspect of it. On this side of the world, the ripple effect goes all the way and back.
Bryndis
Right? Fully. It's like and it's all interconnected in ways that we know, in ways that we don't know.
Rajbir
Well, the more you know, the more you know that you don't know.
Bryndis 36:22
Right, fully. And it's all, all of those pieces too, that kind of combine into the holes. So, when you got there, when did you get to Mount Royal?
Rajbir 36:35
2016 you know, I was looking to get closer to family. My brother's been here for quite a while, and I saw an opportunity here, coming from the University of Manitoba with, you know, large classroom sizes, 80s and 90s and whatever, the Mount Royal model was kind of new for me in Bryndis, and my friend, late, Dr. Brian Fleming-
Bryndis 37:04
Late, great, yeah.
Rajbir 37:06
Fantastic supply chain professional, fantastic human being. I was so kind of mesmerized, if you will. When I met him, he was so passionate about not only supply chains, but this program of supply chain management at the Mount Royal University, and he convinced me to move from a traditional r1 university focused on research and whatever, to an undergrad focused, you know, teaching focused Institute, and I'm so grateful that I, you know, listen to his advice, because in a smaller classroom, you can work with the students directly and see the change happening there. You know them.
Bryndis 37:53
You can see the light bulb moments.
Rajbir 37:55
That's right, you know. And you also know their strengths and opportunities as students, as human beings. So you can work with them on a one to one basis, rather than, you know, just deliver a dry lecture to a classroom of, say, 80 or 90 students. Those students are, sometimes I feel pretty much like a brick in the wall, human beings to the instructor. But the Mount Royal model is so unique, and I just love it, and I'm so grateful to Brian, to, you know, convince me to come to MRU, and here I am, almost, what, 11 years, 10?
Bryndis 38:31
Yeah, exactly. Well, it's kind of neat just in small world moments to realize that when I was working with Barry, Prentice, you were also working with Barry, but we didn't know each other, then, yeah.
Rajbir 38:43
It's a small world. Yeah, exactly both of us. You know, it seems got to work with Barry. That was, you know, an experience in learning and humility, and I got the same experience. And, you know, honor to work with Dr Brian Fleming. And I'm sure you've also worked with Brian.
Bryndis 39:02
Very much so, Brian was so passionate about supply chains, but he was also really passionate about students. And I think the true legacy with Brian is, you know, I've had conversations with multiple students that like former students who were just, you know, still, you know, talk about how much he really just cared about everyone. And I think that entire legacy of compassion and interest in getting more people passionate about the industry is what brings a lot of the rest of us forward too.
Rajbir 39:52
Absolutely, and whoever sort of you know came in contact with Brian has the same sort of back thoughts about how much he cared for students for the MRU supply chain program, and not only that. I mean, of course, generally, as well, he cared about his colleagues, and everybody kind of loved him, no end. So he was a huge role model for many of those students that you mentioned. So he brought me here. I'm lucky to have, you know, very large shoes to fill in, but I'm trying Exactly. He was a size 13.
Bryndis 40:35
Yes, yeah, well, and I guess that's, you know, part of the piece, because I know you've seen the program at Mount Royal evolve and continue to evolve and add in a lot more different labs and different spaces, which is great to see.
Rajbir 40:57
Thank you for reminding me of that. That's another aspect of the supply chain program that we've been fortunate enough to have seen supporting the CN supply chain lab analytics lab was one of the first things that Brian envisioned, and he led the charge To ensure that we had a supply chain data analytics lab. I would not hesitate to say this was probably the first ever in at least in Western Canada, but maybe Canada in an undergrad supply chain program where we had a dedicated supply chain analytics lab. And kudos to Cn for supporting this early on. I mean, those were the days when data analytics was not really a big, big thing as it is today. So we set up the CN supply chain analytics lab under Brian's leadership then and then thereafter, you know, we continue to grow as a program, and we recently set up the bison supply chain innovator initiative. Bison donated about quarter million dollars to invest in experiential learning for supply chain students at MRU, where they literally work as Director of Logistics or Director of Operations, or whatever other roles they work with those leaders at Bison while enrolled in a full time university course Capstone. So the students don't have to go there, they're directors and managers and VPs two VPS, you know, Jamie Burkett and his team, they support the entire thing. So Doug Romanuc, my good friend and you know, Senior Vice President with bison. Doug is now Senior VP with Mexico. Bison, Mexico. Oh, wow, yeah, I sometimes feel jealous he gets to sit in Cancun and enjoy the warm weather. We are freezing here, but so we could set up that bison initiative. Another one that we could set up was in partnership with the large EPC company that we all know floor. They're leading the charge for the LNG pipeline project. So they have what is called the Graduate University scholarship program. But it is only as the name applies for graduate programs and supply chain management. So the Mount Royal University supply chain program was one of the first ones, and probably is the only one so far which is an undergrad program, and they support it. So there is 50,000 US dollars made available each year for supporting students' experiential learning. So all in all, you know, the program has been growing. We have hired a brand new team of full time faculty colleagues, so the program's growing, yeah?
Bryndis 44:10
No, and that's exactly, really neat in one of those kinds of extra pieces that are really good to, you know, bring students in and bring other people into the entire area.
Rajbir 44:28
Think about it like this. Bryndis, is that the entire concept of education? Is it a parchment, or is it knowledge that we want people to memorize and regurgitate? Or is it an experience we want to give them before they hit the job market? So Brian and I, and my colleagues, you know, in the program Dr Denise changer and all the wonderful colleagues that I get to work with at MRU, we have always agreed on the value proposition for a university to be a place where you experience, you learn, you make mistakes, you know it's a safe and inclusive environment where you learn by doing things, not by memorizing things. And I understand that a university has a different mandate, and which is very different from what an a vocational Institute would have, so working with industry partners, you know, like bison or cn or TC energy, and we got a very strong Partnership Council that we meet three times a year just to reassess where we are where we are going. What can we do differently? So our industry partners are really invested in us, and they support the constant tradition or refreshment. I don't know what's the word we should use to keep it fresh, you know? And that's the value proposition our students bring, because they are really connected to the industry. They've seen it all, if you will. They've done it in a safe environment. They've made those decisions, if you will, at university, so they have a better view of what supply chains are. And that is probably the reason, I'm sure, why industry loves those students because they can ask the So What questions, as Brian would always say, you know, if your students can ask the so what question you are a successful professor? Yes, and I totally agree with him always. You know, if we create with him, what do you want your students to be? Do you want them to be clones of yourselves? No, we want them to stay original and share the passion to ask the right questions and make a meaningful difference to whichever organization they go to join. So it's a win, win, win. I guess. You know, industry gets the right talent pipelines. They are invested early on with universities. I mean, all of these organizations that work with us, they work very closely, up to almost the second year, if you will, of the program, guest lectures, live data sets, and real life business problems. So students are literally working on real props in a way every single day in a classroom.
Bryndis 47:26
Oh, completely. So if you were, you know, and you've recently, kind of taken the teaching that you've done for students and recently started on LinkedIn and a few other kinds of areas doing supply chain or supply unchained correct. And so if you were to kind of teach someone in Canada or overseas or somewhere around the world, of you know things of what's happening over the last it's been a ever evolving, very quick five months of 2025, and so if you were to kind of give a few pieces of advice, what would they be?
Rajbir 48:15
Excellent, that's a good question. Thank you for asking that. You know, I'll go into the genesis of this supply unchained publication that I started on LinkedIn. So I reached out to CBC and to some of the other established partners to share some of my thoughts. But then I realized none of them, or most of them, don't publish op-eds any longer, and I was searching for a platform to say, how do I communicate my thoughts to senior managers, younger managers, students, just passionate supply chain professionals. So I started this newsletter, if you will, called Supply Unchained on LinkedIn, and this is where I share some of my thoughts about where we are going. For instance, you know, tariffs are affecting all of us, as citizens, as professionals. So all the things that you should know at least in a simple, meaningful, understandable, bite size piece, that, you know, approach. So I share those thoughts on Supply Unchained, my newsletter, and in one of them, I'm sure, I think I must have shared this with you sometimes over coffee or something. I talk about, you know, why the uncertainty? Why can, let's say hypothetically, the Trump administration not say, All right, here's the deal. We're going to impose, say, x percent of tariffs on whatever the products and the countries, and be done with it. Why the constant movement in the goal post? Why are we constantly changing one the law of Expression could be that they are not sure of what they're doing, but I don't think so. And my understanding has been that, you know, they're doing it on purpose. And there are two concepts that I introduce in one of my articles there. One is called the brinkmanship. Brinkmanship was a concept given by Thomas Schilling. He was a famous economist, and he says brinkmanship is the art of pushing negotiation right to the edge of disaster to extract maximum concessions. And I sincerely believe there is a little bit of brinkmanship that is currently being done. Trump's strategy leans heavily on this brinkmanship, you know, yeah, to give the signal that I'm willing to go to any extent if you don't listen to me, kind of a thing. In that sense, the belief is that people will concede more territory than they would otherwise in a balanced negotiation across the table, and this is one approach that I thought, you know, the other one is, we all have heard about Nixon's madman theory. You know, during the Cold War diplomacy, he used this, and he actually shared this with one of his office staff, who then later went on to write his memoirs. And he said, Nixon said, I'm going to call this the madman theory, and I'm going to ask you guys to communicate to the adversaries that Nixon's a mad cap and he has his hand on the nuclear buttons, so therefore, if you agree, it is safe for everybody. So there is a little bit of a madman theory and brinkmanship that is being employed in this constant, you know, chaos. How do negotiations work? Negotiations work so that I understand your position, and you understand my position, and we try to find common ground. Now the aspect of chaos robs you from understanding what am I looking for, and how can you prepare your negotiation strategy to come negotiate with me. So chaos, actually, some economists believe is a better solution than structured negotiations, so that the adversaries are not sure of what strategy should they design to meet your expectations, and they are all constantly moving the goal post, and in that chaos, people will come up with a less than optimum strategy for negotiation and lose more ground to you just because they were not prepared. So these are the types of, you know, approaches that I've been trying to explain on why we are where we are, and why see this, you know, a different number in the morning, different number in the evening, and so on and so forth. It's, it's, I guess it's a part of strategy, and I've been trying to articulate this, help it, you know, disseminate my analysis of the other piece around the supply chains that I had been espousing the cause for in the last few weeks through my LinkedIn channel says we've had enough of north south trade, not to say we should not continue to negotiate, we should explore Europe and Asia as well. And there is so much more diversity and stability and resilience that comes to our supply chains, just because we will decide to stand on our two legs. You cannot stand on one leg forever.
Bryndis 53:55
Fully and making sure that you know we've got, and now, instead of a one or an or two legged stool, maybe we've got a four legged stool.
Rajbir 54:07
There you go. Yeah, yeah, that capability is all that businesses need. Supply chains are needed, and chaos works to nobody's benefit. So so far for the last 100 years, let's say hypothetically, things have been working nice for us in Canada, just because the southern neighbor never said what they did. Initially. We, all of us, I'm sure, were surprised. We thought this is a joke. It's being said in light of rain. We will not see those things happen, but then once they've happened, we know Trump might go in four years, but Trumpism might not go, and this approach to dealing with friends and neighbors and trade partners and allies might stay so we should act fast. Us as a country, not as provinces and whatever. And we should have a unified approach. Think of what is resilience for us and create new opportunities for trade wherever possible in the world. And Europe is hungry for energy. Europe is hungry for products. You know, there's so much that we can do. Currently, we have the CETA agreement with them, utilizing it.
Bryndis 55:29
Right, we haven't, you know, fully utilized it. I mean, there's some good examples of spots where we're starting to but the more we can fully utilize this CETA, the better for sure.
Rajbir 55:45
And newer relationships could also evolve with Asia. You know, Asia is a huge consumer of a whole lot of products if we start manufacturing something. Now, the question with manufacturing usually comes back to well, the labor costs are high. Agreed, labor costs are high. But can we re skill retrain people to work on jobs that require automation, and then use automation to be the tool that helps us get established in manufacturing? So there's a whole lot of open space to explore in. You know, robotics, automation in manufacturing, that Canada can explore and get into sky's the limit. I mean, we don't have to worry about cost. There are so many other ways to bring down costs. And if you're not producing anything, why would the world need you? Right? So, what do we produce currently? Let's say hypothetically. You know, oil and gas energy products are an exceptional blessing that we have in Alberta in but other than that, think about the manufacturing sector. What do we produce? We consume everything. We don't produce as much.
Bryndis 57:03
Yeah, and, and what we do produce, we don't always effectively get it to other markets too.
Rajbir 57:12
That's right. And the only market that we sent our products to was the southern neighbor who would do some value added, you know, additions to that product, and sell it to the market in Europe at a higher price. Why can we not do that? The supply chain design, per se in itself, is going through us, yeah, evolution, if you will. And this is the time, you know, we should be on top of the wave to make the most of it.
Bryndis 57:45
Definitely for sure. You know, if you were to look at your career and all of the various kinds of areas that you've been involved in, if you were giving advice to someone who was entering the industry, which you probably do every day, considering you're a professor. But what advice would you give?
Rajbir 58:06
You're right. I give advice every day. I don't know how many of them listen or hear, hearing and listening are two different things, but definitely, you know, I would say, don't hesitate to make mistakes. Mistakes, each mistake that we make, it doesn't define us, for sure, but it takes us one step closer to success. Each failure takes you closer to success. If you see success, that is because the person who is successful today that you are emulating, or you know, has gone through a series of failures, has gone through multiple setbacks. And this is one part that I think the younger, younger generation needs to know, it's okay to be not okay. It's okay to fail. It's okay to not make it the first time, yeah, second time or the third time, keep going.
Bryndis 59:03
Good is better than perfect.
Rajbir 59:05
Absolutely, you know, I think it was Aristotle or somebody. I forget who the person was who said that perfect is the enemy of good. So try to be perfect. Keep doing things one step at a time, keep moving. Don't judge yourselves. And failure is okay, because this generation, I realize sometimes they think failure is the end of it all, and I'm no good. There's nobody on the planet who has not failed and failed multiple times. So this is one, and this ties into my philosophy of resilience. You have to believe in yourselves and keep going. So I think you know. And the other part there is a YouTube video I encourage all your listeners to go look for called Connecting the Dots by Steve Jobs, you know, whatever little scale you find you can gain in life. Keep gaining those skills, they will add up one day, just like the little dots in Steve Jobs' life that he, you know, mentions in that video. I don't want to take away the the fun part from your listeners by explaining what he says,
Bryndis 1:00:24
But it's so true. All of those dots lead into moments like even what we're having right now.
Rajbir 1:00:30
Absolutely, you know, there is no linear journey to success. There is no right or wrong definition of success. The journey itself is a success. So grab those opportunities as they come. Whenever they come, raise your hand, show up, stand and reach out to say, Can I do this? Why not me? You know, and learn and help people be passionate about what you're trying to do, and don't do it because you have to do something for a living, kind of a thing, and all those things will eventually transform into something very, very powerful and meaningful, not only for you, but for everybody around you. So I think that's one thing I would leave with youngsters today to say, don't hesitate to fail. Failure takes you one step closer and be kind to yourselves.
Bryndis 1:01:33
That's exactly it. And, you know, I think this is just the start of, I think there's more than few conversations that we can get into kind of in the future, but this is, I think it was a really good start and a really good way for people to learn a little bit more about how we can be resilient, not only as well within our supply chains, but also within ourselves.
Rajbir 1:02:01
There is a supply chain in all of us as well, from one point to another in our life and journeys. Totally think of that supply chain. Yeah?
Bryndis 1:02:12
Exactly. And in a way, I still love, I really love the fact that maybe it's not just a chain, but it's also a web.
Rajbir 1:02:22
A web we are all connected to each other just the way the vendors and whatever in the physical world of supply chain are connected
Bryndis 1:02:35
Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate it.
Rajbir 1:02:37
Thank you Bryndis, it's always a pleasure meeting you and talking to you and thank you for inviting me to this podcast.
Bryndis 1:02:43
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to this Zebras to Apples podcast episode. I hope you enjoyed the showcase of the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. If you liked this episode, I would love it if you could give it a rating and review. For more information about this topic, you can go to zebrastoapples.com or follow Zebras to Apples on the social media platform of your choosing, whether that's Instagram, Facebook, TwitterX, Blue Sky or LinkedIn. You can support the show on Patreon. Also check out the show notes below. Please join me again for another episode of Zebras to Apples. Have a wonderful day.