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We want to talk about all things periods and how they affect our daily lives as chemists at Oxford. We would love to here your views and opinions:
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Periodically, the podcast that covers all things periods and chemistry!
Each week, over this series of six episodes, we here at the University of Oxford will be taking a deep-dive into just how periods have affected us in tutorials, exams, labs and just generally studying at undergrad. We want to talk about how periods can sometimes just get in the bloody way!
Periodically is funded by the Royal Society of Chemistry Equality and Diversity fund.
Periodically is back for season two.
We are still going to be talking
to you about all things periods and
chemistry, but this time we have a twist.
This year, we are very grateful
to welcome guests onto the
podcast from all over the UK.
In our next six episodes, our guests will
be talking to us about their experiences
with menstrual and reproductive health,
where we take a deep dive into topics
ranging from endometriosis, pregnancy
and the menopause to name a few.
Our guests represent a wide range of
experiences, and are at different points
in their career and we hope this will
shed light on the impact that menstruation
can have at all points in our lives.
We still continue our quest to find
out and talk about how menstruation can
sometimes just get in the bloody way.
This year, we'd like to thank the
RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund,
the University of Oxford Chemistry
Department, and the EPSRC funded
OxICFM CDT for supporting the podcast.
Hi, I'm Felicity.
I'm Josie.
And we are both third year chemists
at the University of Oxford.
Today, we are very excited to
be joined by Liv and Lauren from
the incredible society, SASHA,
based at the University of Leeds.
So I will let you two introduce
yourselves and tell us a bit more
about the amazing work that SASHA does.
I'm Liv and I'm the
president for SASHA Society.
Hi, I'm Lauren and I'm the
Welfare Officer for SASHA Society.
SASHA Society, or Students Against Sexual
Harassment and Assault, campaigns at the
University of Leeds for change on campus.
I study international relations, which
intersects really well with this.
SASHA Society also advocates
for the welfare of students.
I study fine art and I'm really
interested in creative activism and
how we can use art for therapeutic
means to support students.
Today we are going to be discussing
Liv and Lauren's journey with
menstrual health, specifically
conditions like endometriosis and PCOS.
Just as a warning, we will be discussing
sexual assault and body image.
So just to start with, could you
guys both talk us through your
journeys with menstrual health?
So I didn't get my period until I
turned 16, which is quite late and then
they were irregular, so maybe every
three to four months at the time I
expressed these concerns with the doctor
and I felt quite invalidated really.
All of the reasoning suggested by them
was that I was underweight and I was
told it was about eating and stress.
So I went on to the pill when I was
17 and I stayed on that for two years.
I decided to come off the pill at
university as I hadn't experienced
a regular menstruation cycle and
through this, I experienced a lot
of pain, but I wasn't bleeding
when I was experiencing that pain.
I had really painful cramping, I couldn't
walk, I was fainting and throwing up.
So that happened while I was at
work and also on public transport.
There was a lot of shame and stigma
around saying that the reason that I
felt ill and that this was happening
was because I was on my period.
So I did struggle with that quite a lot.
I felt this pain to a heightened degree
when I took the morning after pill.
The doctors said they thought
it was either pregnancy or PCOS,
which is Polycystic Ovary Syndrome.
So once I found out that I wasn't
pregnant, I started the diagnosis process.
This involved blood tests, STI tests,
internal and external vaginal scan.
That's a process that I think a lot
of people have to go through and
you have to go through this for this
diagnosis and it's quite invasive
and an uncomfortable experience and
there should definitely be a lot more
welfare implemented through this.
After this I was diagnosed with PCOS.
I didn't have any cysts
but I had other criteria.
I had irregular periods.
I also had irregular hormones
and dysmenorrhea which is
pain while menstruating.
I was told I must be on the pill
and the condition meant that I had
high risk of endometrial cancer.
I also knew people going through
the same thing that had said they'd
never been directed to do this.
So there was a lot of uncertainty
and anxiety around that.
I asked for the option to stop taking
the pill and then at this point I was
told I was overweight, so the opposite,
which is just, yeah, quite difficult
and to emphasise here, I am a weight
that I'm comfortable with and this
suggestion can be extremely triggering
for a lot of people, so there's quite a
lack of consideration of mental health.
I decided to stop taking the pill
without guidance and I experienced pain
as prior, then after three months, my
periods became regular and I came to the
conclusion I thought I'd been misdiagnosed
as I no longer had the criteria.
However, I don't want to return to
the doctors at the minute because
of the bad experience with them.
One in ten women have PCOS and
it's as common as diabetes.
However, most people who don't
menstruate don't know what it is.
Through this process, I've realized that
talking about periods breaks the stigma
around menstruation and is validating
for yourself and for other people.
Thank you so much for sharing your
experience and I'm really sorry that
you haven't got that much clarity
with your diagnosis and it is really
frustrating that it takes so long for
people to get correctly diagnosed.
Liv, what has been your
experience with menstrual health?
So I started my period at 11, which
was earlier than most of my friends.
It was really heavy and it
caused hormonal side effects
and really bad acne for a while.
So I was put on sort of the classic
medication for that and then at 13
or 14 I think I went on the pill.
But that, I think like many other women,
caused really horrible mental health
symptoms and also a gain in weight.
So then I went off it for a bit,
but obviously because of the acne
journey, decided to go back on it.
So at 16 I went on it again because of my
periods and my acne, but I stopped during
the pandemic because of a lack of access
to the pill and then in my first year
at uni, I realized that my pain was not
normal and my anxiety was at its worst
because the pandemic was sort of the
most comfortable I'd ever felt in terms
of just being able to manage the pain.
I mean, I was able to just be
at home, you know, I didn't have
to go out and deal with all the
difficulty of having a heavy period.
So then I tried three different types
of pill and I refused to go back.
But I worked up the courage to go to
the Leeds doctors and I was dismissed
as a student who needed to be healthier
and at the time I was doing everything
recommended for a healthy lifestyle
just to try and fix myself, I guess.
So I ended up going private because
I was fortunate enough to do so.
So I ended up getting a
diagnosis through that.
But I had to be really assertive
and I found that there were
massive boundaries for those who
are anxious or neurodivergent.
I think that is really the
biggest test for a lot of people.
So then I went through lots of
physical tests like blood tests,
things like that, and again
pregnancy tests similar to Lauren.
But there was no clear cure, there
was no clear outcome, there was
no clear solution to my pain.
My symptoms included brain fog, pain
elsewhere in my body, dizziness,
dehydration, chest pain, fatigue, having
a longer or a regular cycle, depression,
like I said, lots of mental health
symptoms and headaches and migraines.
I ended up going to A&E twice, which I
think the disease, like, kind of wreaks
havoc on my body, and I still say this, I
think no one believed me at the time and
even though I have people believing me
now, I still have to live with it alone.
So I re-registered at my home GP
because I thought my family name might
help me get taken more seriously.
But I was just put on the pill again,
even though I didn't want to and then I
still had lots of symptoms and issues,
But I found lots of holistic methods
that I think worked better and just
being able to take one or two days
off a month with my uni schedule was
more manageable despite sort of the
inconvenience of missing out on lessons.
I had lots of blood tests and scans that
I asked for because of my dizzy spells
and my pain outside of menstruating
and I was told by the technician
that you can't rely on picking up
endometriosis on an ultrasound because
it often presents differently now.
So the disease has sort of evolved
so then last year I was given three
options, the pill, the marina coil,
which is the hormonal coil as opposed
to the copper coil, or surgery.
But the latter I would have to
fight for and it was not recommended
for someone of my age who one
day might want to have children.
So now I kind of just have to live with it
because I'm not happy with those choices.
I have a very jam packed schedule as
a third year, but I've kind of made
it by so far just by taking a few days
off a month and getting more involved
in uni work like my work with SASHA.
But yeah, I think this should be treated
as a chronic illness and it's really
not seen as that, which is unfortunate.
Thank you both so much for sharing.
Unfortunately, I think that struggle
to have your pain taken seriously
is something that I think a lot of
people will be able to relate to.
So Liv, you mentioned that you received
a diagnosis for endometriosis, which
now in the UK takes an average of 6.6
years to get, which is a long time.
So how did it feel to find
out that it was endometriosis?
And Lauren, how does it feel to be
unsure about what your condition is?
I think it was underwhelming to
have fought so hard and gone through
all that effort just to be told,
yeah, you have it, but there's not
actually much we can do to help.
So essentially I was just
told to live with it.
I think it does help to feel validated
in terms of being able to talk about it
with a diagnosis like any other condition.
But at the same time, it's kind
of like you know, knowing you have
anxiety versus it being confirmed by
a doctor and it doesn't always make
much difference to the issue itself.
I think I feel quite confused because
I'm unsure whether I might have
endometriosis and not PCOS and I'm just
putting off going back to the doctors
because of my experience with them and
not wanting to discuss this misdiagnosis.
I feel a lot better in a way because my
physical health feels better, so that's
kind of reflected my anxiety about it all.
But it does feel like I've had to sort
of navigate this by myself and make
my own decisions without a sufficient
level of medical support or advice.
I also feel that the suggestion is
often that the pain is due to personal
decisions and lifestyle choices.
For example, weight, stress, yeah,
they're the main ones that I've been
suggested as the reason for my pain
and it feels like I've been blamed
and really something that I should be
able to control when really it isn't.
Yeah, because both of you mentioned
that you got put on the pill, which
is quite, I think, a common thing
for doctors to do for conditions like
this, and you both have touched on it
a little bit, but the pill is something
we explored in Series One, so it'll be
interesting to hear a bit more about
your experiences on it and why you both
decided that you didn't want to continue.
I was put on it basically before
I'd ever had a regular period.
So I was very unhappy about the
fact that I'd never had that regular
period and so that's the main reason
I wanted to come off it because I
wanted to experience that regular
menstrual cycle to know if I could.
I was worried about infertility
and what it meant that I wasn't
menstruating because I didn't believe
the doctors that it was just down to
weight and stress that they suggested.
There was also a lot of
emotional side effects.
I had low libido and I felt
differently about my body.
I don't think it necessarily changed
my body physically, personally, but
I felt different about it and it
was just frustrating that always the
immediate response when I went to
the doctors was, Oh, just the pill
without a second thought, really.
Yeah, I think for me as well
as that, like, it's just
hard to remember to take it.
It doesn't fit in with most people's
normal life and there's lots of boundaries
and it ultimately just, it made my mental
health so bad that I would just rather
not because I think I couldn't cope with
the side effects when it ultimately did
nothing to help my physical pain anyway.
I just think it was not, it's not a
worthy cure for endometriosis or PCOS.
It's such a shame that you felt like
you haven't had that medical support,
but I was wondering, have you told
your university about your diagnosis
and have they offered you any support?
I haven't personally told anyone at
university other than just friends.
I haven't told any professors.
I haven't told the university body itself
and I think, like I said, it's a fact
of life that just a few days a month,
I'll be in bed, I'll be bed bound and
I won't be able to go to my lessons.
There are probably some lecturers
who'd be more understanding of that,
but I think in terms of welfare,
it's quite easy to hide away at
university and just sort of bedrot.
It's easy to, I think it's reflective
of a lot of universities in that sense,
but I think despite knowing support
services do exist that probably would be
helpful, I wouldn't feel that confident
in reaching out to them just because I
think my experience with the GP, I don't
feel that I'd receive effective support.
Yeah, with that idea that it's easy to
bedrot as well, I don't think there's
really very much clear signposting about
where you'd go to access that support.
They do have some access to free
sanitary products, but it should be
way more accessible and there isn't a
society like yours, at the University
of Leeds, which there should be.
So anyone from Uni of Leeds
listening should start one.
Yeah and I feel like I've just
never reached out to anyone to
discuss at the university, how
it has impacted my education.
The honest truth is that it does
feel quite embarrassing and it really
shouldn't, but it's, we need to
just keep having conversations like
these to break that societal shame
and so we can talk about it and we
feel like it's a valid reason to be
ill and to be sick because it is.
Do you feel that the stigma surrounding
your conditions and periods in
general have affected you in any way?
Yeah, I think it's definitely
affected me a lot, actually.
When I was diagnosed, I didn't really
understand what PCOS, Polycystic Ovary
Syndrome, a lot of even friends and
family who menstruated didn't know what
it was and I was asked whether I wanted
children and although I thought maybe
I did, I was 19, you know, I didn't
want to be thinking about that then, it
was very anxiety provoking and I felt
sad, even just at the idea that this
element of choice had been taken away
and I didn't even know whether it had.
I was also told that I couldn't do
fertility tests and I wasn't told whether
this meant that I was infertile, so I
just felt very in the dark about it all.
A lot of my shame also stemmed from
this and kept me from talking about
it because it felt very personal and
I didn't really want to tell people
that I had this condition when I
didn't even know much about it myself.
I definitely didn't feel defined
by the idea of infertility, but the
societal perceptions of womanhood
definitely influenced that humiliation
I felt and then that not communicating
about it, which made it worse.
I then only found out after the diagnosis
that PCOS did not mean that it was
most likely I wouldn't be able to have
children, but I had to find that all out
myself and even then, the research into
it, it just doesn't feel very definitive.
I feel very fortunate now that
I'm ovulating regularly, so
it's not a concern as much.
But I think through this whole process,
I've just learned that if there was
better education in the first place,
I would never have had experienced
such great anxiety about that and
thinking that was a great concern.
I feel grateful that I'm no longer
experiencing this anxiety to that level,
however I feel a lot of anger actually at
the doctors, at the system, at the lack
of medical research into menstruation,
as well as the lack of emotional support.
It's also upsetting because I
know that this experience is
not rare and many menstruating
people have had similar stories.
I have also had very heavy and intense
periods so it feels through that it's
just better off hiding yourself away
for the risk of the embarrassment
of leaking and people seeing.
I also feel quite anxious about period
sex because when I was having very long
and heavy periods, being on your period
is seen as quite dirty by people who don't
menstruate and then that perception can be
taken on by people who do menstruate too.
I think in secondary school I was very
ashamed and no one really talked about
it and that was kind of the main reason
why I was ashamed because it was very
secretive even amongst my friends.
But whereas now at uni I've been forced
almost not to be embarrassed because
inevitably having like endometriosis,
having heavy periods anyway, you're going
to leak, like that is just a fact and in
the gym, at uni, like hanging out with
friends, periods can be so unpredictable
and so heavy sometimes and so the shame
really was about the period rather than
the experience of having endometriosis
and like Lauren, I think I had a lot of
anger towards the system and the lack of
research that there is on these diseases.
But I think joining societies, especially
SASHA, has been really beneficial to my
own discourse surrounding menstruation
and obviously being on this podcast with
you guys and being in just supportive
communities that take these things
seriously and they believe that it's not
an excuse because the pain is real and so
I'm finally not ashamed to talk about it.
So Liv, you mentioned how the
pain of your periods often gets
in the way of your everyday life.
Do you feel that because of
this, or for other reasons,
endometriosis has had an impact on
your relationship with your body?
Yeah, initially I had major resentment
for my body and the pain that I was in.
I wondered why I couldn't be normal
and especially in first year where I
was hiding away a lot, I didn't get
to have the university experience
that a lot of students want to
have, especially in first year.
In adulthood, it's impacted my routine,
my training at the gym, which is key for
mental health, like that really helps
my overall health and well being and
then sometimes it also just prevents
me from getting out, getting sunlight,
getting fresh air and interacting
with people, going to my studies,
like I've said, which obviously hurts
long term, it's like a kind of never
ending cycle, even when I'm not on my
period, I'm having pain during my cycle.
So it's all very difficult to balance and
I think in recent years it's, though I
don't have shame about my periods, it's
impacted my self esteem in terms of weight
gain, mental health and rather than the
stigma and the shame about the condition.
I feel shame about the impact
that's had on me as an individual
and the side effects that people
don't know are related to that.
But I think since I've realized
how many people actually live with
this pain, I sort of feel a sense
of community and comfort from that.
Thank you both so much for
sharing these experiences.
I'm sure so many other people can relate
and these conversations are so important.
What would you like to see in the future
for people dealing with these conditions?
Part of what we do at SASHA is aim to
educate as early as possible in open
conversation, to raise awareness and
prevent instances happening through
building supported communities that will
campaign against rape culture and I think
this model is important in any issue
it's important in a supportive welfare
context and for example what Periodically
does in distributing information about
the conditions and detailing real
experiences, I think that resonates with
a lot of people and it's also useful
in terms of campaigning for a cure or
just for prevention and alleviation
of symptoms for a lot of women so that
we can have some semblance of peace in
our lives again would be really nice.
Nevertheless, I hope that people
will listen to this and if
they do resonate that they just
don't feel so alone, like I did.
It would have helped me a lot to build a
community earlier on and to also absorb
more facts about these conditions.
Yeah, I agree.
I think there should be so much
more welfare as well implemented
through the process of diagnosis
of PCOS and endometriosis.
For example, the internal vaginal
scan is something which can be
extremely triggering and there
should be a more trauma informed
approach to these medical procedures.
I also think that we need to break
the stigma, you know, there's
so much awkwardness around it.
This reflects the work
we do with SASHA Society.
We're just trying to break
the stigma about these issues
which are not discussed.
I say to everyone now, like, I'm on my
period just because I'm trying to break
that kind of lack of talking about it
and not everybody has to do that, but
I'm just kind of like over it now, tell
them that's why I'm feeling ill and
then that's on a personal level, but
on a political level, I think there
needs to be much more medical research.
There's a shocking lack of it because
it's a problem dealing with menstruation.
So only 50% ish of people have these
issues and I think with this increased
awareness and understanding, there will be
more support for individuals on a personal
level with their struggle with these
conditions, for example, endometriosis
and PCOS and there will be a much greater
societal understanding of what these
conditions are, which will mean that
experience such as pain is no longer
invalidated and we together can then break
that societal shame around menstruation.
Thank you so much, Liv and Lauren,
for coming down to talk to us today.
There's evidently a lot of work to be done
in society towards helping those who live
with these conditions, both with finding
an effective treatment to alleviate
pain, but also a shift in how society
views the severity of these conditions.
I think what you guys were saying
about building a community is so
important, so hopefully this episode
is a step in the right direction to
help validate people's experiences and
let them know that they're not alone.
Thank you so much for listening.
In particular, a huge thank you to Liv and
Lauren for being such fantastic guests.
We have learnt so much from you, and I'm
sure our wonderful listeners have too.
We hope you've enjoyed our discussion
around PCOS and endometriosis.
If you're interested in learning more
about SASHA's work, then visit their
Instagram @SASHA_UOL and to find out
more about the podcast you can find us
at www.periodicallyoxchem.wixsite.com
or follow us on social
media @periodically_ox.
Tune in next week for our next episode.
Again we'd like to thank the RSC
Inclusion and Diversity Fund, the
University of Oxford Chemistry
Department and the EPSRC funded
OxICFM CDT for supporting the podcast.