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The Fintech Marketing Lab is a podcast where Araminta Robertson, Managing Director at Mint Studios, explores, experiments, and breaks down how fintech marketing actually works in practice.
intro: Most FinTech brands are trying
to look younger and more casual.
Public spent the last couple of
years deliberately going the other
way, specifically more mature.
Zach Dioneda is VP of Brand Marketing
at Public and he was on the show
actually about a year ago, right
as this rebrand was running out.
So I wanted to have him back
and see how it played out.
Well, as we'll see, they stopped
competing with the other neo brokers
and started positioning public as a
serious investing platform, uh, basically
a more modern Schwab or Fidelity.
And Zach is a perfect person
to walk us through it.
Before public, he ran brand at
Fiverr through its IPO, and he came
up there on the agency side working
with accounts like State Farm.
He was also named Breakout brand
Leader back in 2023 by Ad Age.
Now, if you're not aware of public,
it's a multi-asset investing platform
with stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and
retirement accounts all in one place.
Plus an AI research layer
called Generated Assets.
They've raised over $400
billion from investors,
including Axel and Tiger Global.
In this episode, we get into why public
reposition against Schwab and Fidelity
instead of the other newer brokers, how
they build trust across a longer buyer
cycle from Soho Billboards to podcast ads.
Why they're careful with the incentives
of growth hacks that can cheapen a
brand and how they made a TV ad almost
entirely with ai, but there's still
one thing they'll never use AI for.
This was a really fun
episode, so let's get into it.
Araminta Robertson: perfect.
Well, I'd like to start off Zach by, you
know, it's so great to see you again.
It's been like almost a year
actually since we last chatted.
And public's been very busy.
You've done a lot.
So since we last caught up you did
a rebrand, new positioning, new
experience, and it's I think it's a
very interesting way that you're going
'cause it's quite different to the rest
of maybe the companies in that space.
So could you walk us through a little bit
through the thinking behind the rebrand
and kind of what is the goal and yeah.
Why have you gone through that?
Zach Dioneda: Absolutely.
First, it's a pleasure to
be on and to chat again.
And I think last time we talked, we
were actually kind of just rolling
this the early innings of rolling
out this rebrand, which was a little
bit of a moving target for us, right?
Like, I think in kind of public fashion
we move at a very high velocity, right?
Move very quick.
And for us it was more important to move
quickly and get this brand evolution
into market than, say, take a more
traditional approach where we take six
to nine months work on a rebrand behind
the scenes, unveiled it all at once.
And for us, we really wanted to
start getting it out there and
start making some step changes.
And so for us, yeah, like, what
we're trying to do is position
public as the platform for people
who take investing seriously.
Like at the end of the day,
that's what we're trying to do.
And so really we focused on is.
Creating or evolving our brand to better
align with the world class investing
platform that we've been building, right?
That's been happening over time.
The really interesting thing for us
is that we kind of have to thread
the needle between two kind of ends.
And this is the balance that we're
always trying to strike being a more
modern day investing platform, right?
On one hand you have like the
trust, sophistication, premium
seriousness of being a player in the
financial technology space, right?
And a brokerage.
But on the other hand, how do
we marry that with innovation,
technology and design, right?
And so when you look at our kind of
continuum of, the other players in the
space, us included and the competitors,
you kind of have the other set of neo
brokers, and by definition we might
be kind of included in that, right?
And everyone has pros and cons and is
further along or not as far along in
their journey but generally a little bit
more casual for one reason or another.
On the other side, you have
our legacy players, right?
That have great trust credibility.
They've been around for a really long
time, but they lack the design and the
digital first nature of these platforms.
And so we're really trying to thread
that needle between the two of those.
And one of the things that I think about
is trying to reframe our consideration set
or competitive or consideration set from
just being against those other neo-brokers
to actually moving it way up the other
side and being a, an alternative to the
Schwabs and Fidelities of the world.
One of the things that we've seen that
is often a really good shorthand, and
we've seen this in the response to
this kind of brand evolution and where
the product has gone over time is that
we see people talking about public
as a more modern Schwab or fidelity.
And I think I even said this last time,
but it's really kind of born come true in
a way, is that we have that opportunity
and people are starting to see that and
we'll continue to push down that road.
And so again, we had this world-class
investing platform from a product
standpoint, and we needed the brand to
match that and also help lead the charge.
Araminta Robertson: That's the thing that
I find so interesting is that in order
to move kind of up market a little bit,
right, you marketing that, like that's
a big job for marketing to do brand and
marketing, to do like product obviously.
But you know, without marketing
doing that, you can't move to a
different, in a way kind of messaging
and, ideal customer and all that.
So I guess like at what point do
you feel like you realised maybe the
old brand wouldn't take you there?
Like at what point did you realise that
and or maybe some of the specifics that
you decided to change, like, for example,
the logo and all that and kind of some
of the main brand assets haven't changed.
It's more messaging and all that, so Yeah.
At what point did you realise that what
you had before wouldn't take you there?
And what are some of the
things that you changed?
Zach Dioneda: Yep.
Sure.
So, it's kind of helpful to
look back to the start, right?
And like when, if you rewind all
the way back, public first made our
mark as the social investing app.
When we first started we had stocks
and we had this social component.
And that helped us really kind
of carve out that first niche.
But as the landscape evolved, our
business evolved and Right, like we
just talked about building a world
class investing platform, especially
as the landscape was changing.
And so that was the first sort of
piece is as we saw the landscape
change, our business goals started to
shift a little bit, And that's where
we really started to go all in on
not just building a social platform
for investing, but building a more
modern world-class investing platform.
That's when we realised that brand or
that we needed a brand to go with that.
Now, when was that shift, right?
Like what it happened was, is that like
in order to grow that business, we had
to do the brand thing at the same time?
But it's been truly, this is a
little bit of a long-winded answer,
but this brand evolution was
really years in the making, right?
All the way back to 2022 when we really
kind of started making that shift from
a product and business standpoint.
We started adding on these
additional product offerings, right?
Going from just stocks to over the
course of years, stocks, bonds,
options, treasuries, high yield,
crypto more recently, things like
direct indexing, the generated assets,
AI-based product, and all of our
other AI tools, Helped build this
world, world-class investing platform.
And so we started this shift
over time, from 20 22, 23, 24.
And really at the end of 24 is when we
looked around and said, okay, wow, this
product, the platform is really there.
It's matching with where
we want to go as the brand.
And that was sort of the
tipping point, right?
Like we had gotten to product parody with
where we needed to get, to be able to
bring people into the fold without them
saying, oh, I wish they had that, right?
Like, I can't join public 'cause
they don't have crypto, or they
can't join public 'cause they, they
don't have access to bonds, right?
Like, we got over that hump and had
all of those elements at our disposal.
And so end of 2024 was really that
moment where we're like, okay, it's
time to put the investment, the time
and effort into making this shift.
And we unveiled it in early 2025.
Now, what I talked about briefly
is right, in a true public
fashion, we move very quickly here.
And so for us it was how do we get this
out into the world as quickly as possible
to make as big of an impact as possible?
And to be honest, like we did that, but we
broke a few things in the process, right?
Like in early part of 2025, we
had to do a lot of, building
the plane as we're flying it.
And to some extent that's okay.
And we were able to kind of put our, the
right guardrails around doing so that we
were able to make the impact by getting
it live and then really come in and kind
of tighten up things and make a bunch of
decisions that help make things roll a lot
quicker and more smoothly in the future.
Again, at the core, like we're
still delivering on our mission.
This with this brand evolution, right?
And now this brand matches up
with the product that we're,
that we are building and we're
continuing to build for the future.
And now the brand matches the
product, but can also help lead where
we want the product going as well.
Araminta Robertson: I think what I like
is that you have decided to go after
more serious investors and I think a
lot of, maybe other brands would say,
okay, we need to go for older investors.
'cause they're the ones who are
usually the ones that go after
Fidelity or Vanguard or whatever.
But you actually, in your
messaging is quite clear.
It's for gen Z who wanna be serious.
Right.
Am I right in saying that,
like you're going after
or
Zach Dioneda: I wouldn't necessarily
say that we are going after just Gen Z.
Like look, we will take
everybody, of course.
We actually skew a little bit older.
Now, I think if you go back to that
continuum I talked about, right?
Like we're gonna skew younger than
the legacy players, but we're actually
skewing a little bit older than
a lot of those other neo brokers.
And what we're finding is, things
like retention of our users, right?
Once the users are coming on board the
mindset of our core user base is more
of that, of a long-term investor, right?
There's a lot of different cohorts of
people and different individuals can
kind of go between different mindsets
and product sets even within that.
So there's a lot of flexibility in
there, but generally we see folks
that are coming to public that
have more of a long term mindset.
And so that kind of skews
us a little bit older.
And now, especially with some of the
products that we've offered and the
order, right, like kind of reinventing
bonds, For a more digital modern age
the core user group there is not Gen Z.
There's gonna be some folks in that
Gen Z group that discover them and
are like, oh wow, this is pretty cool.
I can add this to my portfolio,
but generally we're gonna skew a
little bit older than just Gen Z.
And so I'd say our core user
base, our core audience is still
kind of that millennial audience.
Again, it's gonna be a little bit
older than some of those other neo
broker competitors, but it's gonna be
younger than the more legacy players.
And that's where we're really
starting to find our sweet spot.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
And of course, as time goes
on, those Gen Z are become
older and have more money and,
Zach Dioneda: and we graduate
people along the spectrum.
Of course, abso
Araminta Robertson: And you're investing
with an earlier audience on purpose,
so that then in 10 years, when they
have more money, of course they're
gonna already stick with public.
Right.
Zach Dioneda: Absolutely.
And I think one of the things that
we have talked a lot about especially
earlier stages of this sort of brand
evolution, was maintaining or promoting
a aspirational approach, right?
Like if we position public as a brand
only for beginners, we're not gonna get
people that are already further along.
Now, if we can turn that dial a little bit
and position and show, people examples,
experiences in our brand and product
language that are a little bit more
further along or are more aspirational,
we'll get those people that wanna reach
up, that want to graduate there and that
see themselves there in the future as
well as the people that are already there.
So it gives us a little bit
more flexibility actually.
Now, on the other side, by not being
directly a Gen Z brand, there are times
where we might be a little bit more
conservative than some of our competitors.
And so that's always a balance
that we're trying to strike.
But as you said, as time goes
on, people continue to grow.
There's new people every
day that turn 18, right?
And there is no demographic rule
on who we want to acquire or
who we will bring into the fold.
It's just where we've sort of settled
in, again, along that kind of competitive
set is where we're kind of netting out.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, but this is what I mean, like maybe
a few years ago you were focused on the
beginner kind of, audience, and now it's
definitely more mature and more advanced.
And could you share some
specifics of how, from a marketing
perspective that has changed?
So, for example, I saw an ad of
yours in a morning brew video.
I'm a big fan.
So, maybe some examples of like
where now you place your ads or
where you've now the kind of, well
obviously the messaging has changed.
That's a great example.
The ads have the messaging
within the ads have changed.
Like what are some ways that you've,
just, a little bit that marketing or
those messages.
Zach Dioneda: a absolutely.
So I think there's a lot of different
avenues we can go down here 'cause things
have evolved over the past couple years.
But I think one thing that's interesting
is, for a, growth stage company, right?
Like we will always do some level of
paid acquisition marketing, right?
And I lead up the brand team and
creative team and I work very closely
with the acquisition team here.
And we believe that we can do really
great acquisition driving creative that
still leads the brand and we can do
brand that still acquires customers.
So generally that all
works really, really well.
But over time, if that dial is turning
a little bit we might lose a little
bit of that direct response or a little
bit of the channel specific context
of that creative in favour of a little
bit more brand halo effect over time.
And then things like our TV advertising
now, we're gonna start to dial up
the production quality a little bit.
Maybe the quantity comes down a
little bit and we're spending a
little bit more time on each ad.
AI has coming into the picture
this year and the end of last
year and really kind of throwing
a bunch of curve balls in there.
But last year we launched a new video
or TV campaign with real public users.
It was testimonial driven in
nature, which is a very direct
response marketing tactic.
But what we really worked on is
shooting that in the most beautiful
aesthetic way that still brings all
of this brand evolution to life.
And I feel that it worked really well.
And when we're working with our
teams, we see how it works from an
acquisition standpoint, but also
still drives brand at the same time.
And then really just thinking about
the context in which ads appear, right?
I think we talked about this last
time, but one of the things that we
think about when we buy out of home
advertising for instance, is again,
the context in which they appear.
So if we're buying a billboard, we
really try to limit those to those
A level neighbourhood and locations.
We'd rather focus on the
quality of a quantity there.
Now, again, I'm a marketing guy, so
like, of course we think about and
frequency and we're gonna add in
some taxi tops to mix in with those.
But if we're buying a big billboard,
like we'd prefer it to be in Soho, Like
where there's people that are coming in
from different walks of life, but that
might be a little bit more influential
in their day-to-day life, right?
Because that's the area where they're
spent hanging out and it's this
different sort of buzz and electricity
happening in those neighbourhoods.
So those are a few things
that we think about.
And I can go down any one of
those if you want to talk more.
Araminta Robertson: Well, I think
it interlinks nicely with what I
was gonna talk about now, which is
more like trust because this is kind
of what we wanna talk about, right?
Building trust in B2C.
And the thing is that what you're doing
here as you're, becoming a serious,
targeting or working with more serious
investors, trust becomes even more
important because serious people
wanna feel like the platform that
they're using is trustworthy, right?
I think what you're saying is
quality over quantity is it
also helps with trust, right?
If I see an ad and the production
quality is super high, I'm thinking
if they're willing to put so much
energy, money, resources into an ad,
chances are they are gonna do that
with the product as well, right?
So it's like high quality marketing
is a proxy for a high quality product.
So are there any things you've
had to change there as well from a
marketing perspective or anything
that you've started doing more that
also helps with that trust building?
Or for example, any growth tactics
that you have had to say, no, we
can't do that because now we have
a different messaging and we're
focused on more serious investors.
Like anything there
Zach Dioneda: Yeah I think there's a
few things that we can talk about back
to out of home for a quick second,
which again, it's like, it's one of
the smallest pieces of our media mix.
But I think it's interesting when you
talk about it being a proxy, because
again, that context, and so not just
being in soho, but one of the reasons
why we want to be in places like that
is instead of our billboard showing up
in places where you're used to seeing
brands that you've never heard of
before, we wanna show up on the same
placement where people are used to seeing
Apple or a high fashion brand, right?
And then all of a sudden public comms
and you're like, oh, I've been seeing
these blue chip companies here.
Even if the context is a little
bit different and you, it
starts to become that proxy.
So, absolutely.
We were talking a little bit
about acquisition and how
sometimes over time we've kind
of turned that dial up on brand.
One of the things that has happened
is as we've continued to go up
market, is that the consideration
time gets longer and longer, right?
People are not going to convert
to public or typically not gonna
convert to public just because they
see one paid Instagram ad, right?
You have that more traditional media
mix that we need to hit people at
different points in the funnel.
Each one of those needs to work together
to build that trust, And so that's
one of the things that we look at.
All the time is how do we build
trust all the way down the funnel.
And so our media mix is
constantly changing, right?
Due to a variety of reasons.
But you will see public doing some
more of that traditional marketing,
like we are on podcasts, podcast ads.
Again, the context in
which you hear public.
We want people to hear public on their
way to work on a podcast that they trust.
And then when they get to the
office and they put some markets
news on in the background, we want
them to see one of our very high
quality TV ads that they've seen.
And then once they're into the fold,
we're gonna hit them with on digital,
with a message that can go a little bit
wider or more variety of creative because
we have more targeting capabilities.
But it's still going to be all about
executing on trust at different points.
In terms of like, what are things that we
have gone away from, would say like, not
that we used to do it but one thing that
we're always careful about is incentives.
And, being careful to use those in
the right instances and use them to
promote the right behaviours, if we're
offering a match on IRA contributions
like that is, arguably one of the most
serious products out there, right?
These are people that are
saving for their retirement.
We can bring them into the fold.
It's a super sticky product.
I think that's a very
appropriate way to have a match.
But the way that we're gonna talk
about it is going to be pretty
serious, pretty sophisticated.
But beyond that, we'll be very careful
with the way that we use incentives.
'cause again, like if you use too many
incentives, like it's not very public.
It, you said it, not me, right?
We'll be careful with the
way that we use those.
So that's one thing that
we've been thinking about.
And then just generally, like with trust,
we've talked, you and I have talked a lot
about this, but again, it's like paramount
with every single thing that we do.
Like we are asking people to trust
public with their life savings.
And again, as we move up market,
like not only are we asking people
to trust us, but sometimes there's
people that already have brokerages.
they are with a brokerage that they
already have some degree of trust in.
We want them to move over to public.
We're in a switching game at this
point, or maybe they have a point.
We want them to come and try out public.
That trust has to be there at every stage.
And so that is the thing that we
are looking through at every point
from a product to a marketing
to brand perspective, et cetera.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
it's so fascinating.
wanna talk about ai, but before that,
I wanted to ask like, you as a company
and also as a marketing team, have
to be so in touch with Gen Z, who are
gonna be eventually the generation
with the most amount of money.
how do you find that this generation
trust their signals are different.
What does credibility look like to Gen Z?
Or maybe do you measure
it in a different way?
What do you find is a little bit
different about this generation
that you have to be very aware of?
Because obviously these are
your, one of your core audiences.
Zach Dioneda: Yeah, one of the things
that we try to do at the end of the day
is right, like, if public is built for
people who take investing seriously we
want to, as much as possible, seek those
people out and speak directly to them.
And as you said, there can be people
that are serious about investing
that have the intent to be serious.
Even if they're more novice,
even if they're younger,
they can still be serious.
And so we wanna seek those
people out and we wanna stand
up and say like, we are for you.
And we want to send a bunch of
signals that the people, and when
we're talking Gen Z, those people are
usually a little bit more nascent,
right, in their investing journey,
just by virtue of their ages.
But we still want them to see
themselves in public, we show up on
a variety of different platforms.
TikTok is still a good example
of a platform that we show up in
that skews a little bit younger.
There are pieces of creative that we
will develop that can work both on
TV and in TikTok, but then there are
times that we're developing creative
that is more TikTok or vertical
scroll, thumb stopping focused, right?
And we will continue to do that over time.
One of the other things that we see
is, especially younger audiences but
not exclusively are very much online.
One of the things that we're trying
to do and put a big focus on is
how can public show up on the
internet in a way that is authentic?
And so a couple good examples.
Steven Sykes, our COO is very
active in Reddit, in the sub Reddit.
It's been pretty incredible to
see the community on Reddit, which
again, not just Gen Z, but that
it skews up or varies up and down.
But you see folks on these
sub Reddits start to police or
help and encourage each other.
You will see people say, Hey, you
have a question, Steven, the COO,
he's always in the subreddits.
Watch out for him.
And you start to see this
interaction and these conversations
that play out in real time.
And these, even though they are
maybe small in the people that
are actually engaging in the
comments, But it goes from there.
'cause there's a lot of people that
go on to Reddit that don't actually
comment, but they're reading.
And then that person talks to
somebody else like, oh, you can
actually talk to somebody from public.
That's pretty cool.
They're coming on here and
answering my questions directly.
And so Reddit is one example, but
we have folks on our team that
are very active across platforms,
especially digital social platforms
to try to show that there are people
here at public that are available.
We're listening.
We want to engage directly
with you in an authentic way.
And it's not gonna ever be
authentic by saying we're authentic.
You have to actually do it.
And we're starting to see that
really bear some fruit right now.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah, I love that.
So what I'm hearing is like what
Gen Z really care about is, they
will take a company seriously
that is very active online.
I don't think a Gen Z would seek out
a company, if they're like, there's
nothing online, they would find
out like, no, I don't trust them.
And also what you're saying
is like access to experts.
So if they can, cause I don't
think that's true for maybe
someone who's older, right?
Like who didn't grow up with the
internet, they maybe care more about
a physical perspective or something.
Something like that.
Whereas Gen Z would be more like, I wanna
be able to talk to the people I'm giving
my money to and I wanna be able to see
them on social, on TikTok, on Reddit.
And I wanna be able to see, and
I want good quality as well,
and, but it has to be authentic.
So it's that kind of weird like balance.
So it's like these are the things you
need to keep in mind if you're a B2C,
FinTech focusing on this generation.
You need to be good at these things,
right.
Zach Dioneda: And one of the areas that
I've, that I find fascinating is, and
again, I think it ties directly into
this idea of authenticity that I see
really speaks well with, or resonates
with younger audiences as they've
grown up in this completely digital age
where as opposed to, you know, a more
millennial audience where we started less
digital and has evolved over time, but
there's just been this deluge of content
and digital advertising out for them.
And so they've have spent their entire
lives already picking out what's real,
what's not and how to identify that.
And so I think that authenticity
is really key there.
Now, what's really interesting in
this, in the marketing space is
this idea of UGC advertising, right?
And creating ads that feel like content,
that don't feel like ads, but at some
point is there just so much shit out
there that it's all just fake UGC content?
And then at what point and to your point
about slop, you can't go on Twitter
without reading about how some company
has created a system to have 10 versions
of a AI avatar create 10 versions
of a different product hook, right?
It's like, what is real, what is not real?
And so the opportunities where we
can show up in a real and authentic
space, I think have potential
to really have outsized returns.
And so again, like if we are, we're still
relatively small in terms of numbers
of our team, but we want to throw our
time resources, throw our weight against
things that have those outsized returns
and where we can show up authentically.
And whether that's a TV ad, which
is obviously different from somebody
like Steven going on and talking, we
want it to represent our brand and
our product in a very authentic way.
Araminta Robertson: Well, this is a good
segue to talk about AI because I think
you're doing really interesting things,
not just in the market, like in the,
both the product and the marketing space.
And I think there's two
questions I have here.
Like, first of all, tell us a bit
about the new launch that you had
recently on generated assets, but also
just on that topic of like, how do
you as an organisation use AI in your
marketing in a way that doesn't cheapen
the brand that is not, super risky?
Because people will be like, is this
even real and actually does make you
more efficient, but in a way that
still is, continuing to build that like
trust and your messaging in general.
Zach Dioneda: Sure.
You tell me where do you wanna start?
Do you want me to start on the
product side or the marketing
because like while of course they're
tied, they are quite different.
I think there are two
kind of conversations
Araminta Robertson: That's true.
I think let's set the scene with a product
because it's quite an interesting, I
think it's innovative and there's a lot
of interesting things there, and then
we can tie it into marketing maybe.
Zach Dioneda: Absolutely.
I think that's great.
One of the cool things about public is
that we were very early in integrating
AI directly into our product.
So as early 2023, we launched our
first AI product called Alpha was
a research assistant that was built
directly into the product, right?
Like this idea of being on any stock
page, you swipe down, you could have
a natural language conversation.
What we've seen over time is a lot
of companies and across sectors
have added some sort of LLM chatbot.
But what we've done is gone from
there and gone into how do we
build an AI intelligence layer
directly into the product, right?
So you're getting proactive news,
information, insights, alerts that
are specific and tailored to your
portfolio before you ever know
that you even need them, right?
And so the product has evolved
over time and I think we're doing a
really good job leading the charge
at building this AI native platform.
What you're referring to in terms of our
most recent launch is back in November
of this past year we put out kind of
our AI keynote our sort of thesis on
ai at this point and kind of broke
out our world of AI into three sort
of spaces, which is this idea of like
research, kind of what we launched first.
This idea of creation
which is generate assets.
I'll come back to this in this idea
of action agents, which we'll talk
about as well, with generated assets.
We launched a product.
There are ETFs for many different sectors
out there and ETFs have been great
products for people, but we had this idea,
right, that other people, or you might
have an idea of an index or a, a financial
instrument that you could create.
So this idea that you can create
an investible index out of any
idea that you might have, right?
And so like.
I think early on in the time that we
were developing this generated assets
product, there was a viral Twitter
post where somebody was saying, oh, I
wish I could make an ETF based on CEOs
who could bench press over 200 pounds,
because that would show that the c the
CEOs right, exercise their discipline.
Thus they show more discipline
in their jobs, right?
And they created that, that
went viral with this product.
You can do that sort of thematic thing.
You can also go a lot deeper.
And you are working with our
ai, LLM, right, to create those
criteria in which to create the
actual index that you're creating.
And it does it in seconds, right?
Which is, there are entire firms
out there that create ETFs over
time, and you can use our AI tool
to build that nearly instantly.
It's really incredible.
Encourage you to play around with it.
It's a lot of fun.
We actually just on Tuesday
launched a pretty big update,
which is called the Discovery Hub.
So you can actually see the
thousands of different generated
assets that have been created.
They're immediately back tested, right?
You can see how they would've performed
against the s and p, which is super cool.
You can go in, you can edit them,
you, if you have your own idea you
can make that, you can share it
with friends and go from there.
Really cool.
So even more developments
to come on that front.
And then we preview the idea of agents,
this idea of action taking action
through agents where it sort of shifts
from, placing an order on your laptop
or your mobile device, for a certain
stock to starting to express intent.
And you can work with an AI agent
to execute prompts on your behalf.
We have a lot more to come out with that
in the near future, but we previewed it
in that, that keynote from late November.
And we're really excited
to get this one live.
So a lot more to come there.
That's the
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
That's crazy.
You've been busy.
Zach Dioneda: Sure
Araminta Robertson: It hasn't
been a calm time.
And also, I mean, this is kind of a segue
to the marketing question, which is, as
you've got all these product launches
going, how is the marketing team kind of
working with the product team on that?
Are you part of the, do you help
shape the product narrative beforehand
and then translate it after?
Like, where do you step in
to help with those launches?
Zach Dioneda: it's a great question.
Generally from inception now the product
team, right, is really leading the charge
when it comes to product roadmap, but the
management team is obviously involved.
We have a very lean team and we
work incredibly collaboratively and
incredibly iteratively at the org.
And there's not a lot of red tape.
And so it's very easy for me to go
directly to our head of product, our
Yannick, our other co-founder, co
CEO, who leads up product, right?
Like his office is mere feet away
from me and I have access to him.
And that's just kind of indicative of
the way in which our teams operate.
Jake, who leads up our acquisition
team lifecycle, sits under him,
lifecycle directly tied to product.
They're working hand in hand every day
and you see that really come to life
in the way that these things roll out.
There are different times where
something might be a little bit
further along from a product standpoint
before a brand comes in but generally
there's very little that is precious.
And we often jump in pretty early.
One of the interesting things about
having a co-founder co CEO sort of
set up is that if life is a little bit
more leading the charge on all things
marketing and Yannick is leading the
charge on all things product, they are
working together hand in hand at all
times, and it facilitates this nice
little feedback loop at all times.
and so again, like I just
kind of long-winded way to say
that, yes, we're very involved.
It varies product by product,
launch by launch, right?
There are some that are smaller updates
and we're trying to get those out as
quickly as possible, and we might be
making some product or some copy adjust
adjustments to make sure that they align.
Now something like our upcoming agentic
launch or with this launch of agents
that we've been previewing this is deep
marketing and marketing and product is
working hand in hand in the way that
we are naming the product, the way that
we're talking about the product within
the product, and how does that align with
everything that we're doing externally.
So again, it varies by timing
and size of the project.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah,
there's no, no time to rest.
It just keeps going.
And, well, so this ties into
then, within the marketing org.
how are you finding ways to use
AI to maybe keep up with that?
I imagine that like, you need a bit
of that, but also just in general,
as we, we discussed earlier, like
to ensure that the content you're
creating, 'cause you're you're producing
so much content across the podcast,
the website, everything newsletter.
How do you create those workflows with
AI while ensuring that it's like high
quality, keeps that trust, all of that.
Zach Dioneda: I think one of the
really cool things with AI part of our
marketing stack is that for a while
we kind of thought about AI sort of a
force multiplier when it comes to time,
resources, and, if we need to get some SEM
search terms, can I do that via chat GPT?
Absolutely.
And so how can we use it as a force
multiplier, but with all of the
developments and like I am deep in like
design, ai, FinTech, Twitter, like that's
what I, my is in my feed every day.
And like, I mean, there are memes about
all of the AI design tools and vibe
coding tools and like, it's impossible
for anyone to keep up right now.
But if we kind of strip some of
those things away from a principle
standpoint, what we've been really
trying to think about is AI not
just as a force multiplier, but as
a creative multiplier and how can AI
allow us to do things that we might
not have otherwise been able to do.
We released a ad that's running
on TV right now internally,
we're calling it voicemail.
And it's literally a father leaving
a voicemail to his daughter Whose
daughter moves to a new city, new job.
And at the end of the day, they
are talking about our IRA product.
We built every aspect
of this TV ad using ai.
So it is a sort of mixed media
of still images as well as video.
And one of the unlocks that
we had was this idea of
creating character consistency.
And if, again, if you're deep
into this AI Twitter, like I am,
this character consistency was a
big unlock for a lot of people.
But what we were able to do is
create an ad with one character
where she stays consistent
throughout the course of the ad.
Call it 20 different still photography
clips, 10 different video clips, and that
character stays consistent, which allows
us to create a, something that feels real.
Then there's a lot of little pieces
that we brought to it that were test
and learn in terms of how do we make
this feel lived in authentic real,
that tips and tricks that we learned.
And now the interesting
thing, right, is that.
At the end of the day, it allowed us
to create this concept where if we
would've produced this traditionally,
we would've had to hire a production
company, go out and shoot something,
or rely just on stock photographs.
Searching through stock
photographs is no joke, right?
That takes time and effort.
But we were actually able to,
through some really smart prompting
and trial and error, right?
Get to a place where we
had this incredible output.
Now, the import or the human piece
is still absolutely critical, right?
You need the idea at the start.
You're not just prompting something
and spitting out a TV ad, right?
We're building this.
It's a puzzle that we
have to put together.
We have to test and learn, train
the models on different elements,
put it all together, and then when
it comes out, there's still a human
piece of the video editing, right?
In this instance, the video
editing to tell that story.
So it's taking these elements that
were created via prompt by AI and
putting together in a narrative that
makes sense and bringing them to life.
So there's still a human aspect.
Now, the music was created by ai,
the sound effects ai, the voiceover
by ai, but there's still a human
that kind of brings it all together.
Really exciting.
We have a lot more of that to come.
We have another TV spot that is
going to go live in the coming days.
That is all AI generated.
And again, back to the context that
we spoke about at the beginning.
We would never use ai, to fake a
founder talking about public as a
testimonial, but for something that
is creative and does not matter if
it was done by ai, we will take that.
And if it can help us better
communicate an idea or help us even
further an idea, we are all for it.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
Wow, that's amazing.
I think I, I dunno if I saw that ad.
I saw another, and I don't know if
that one was generated by a, but I'm
gonna watch that one that you mentioned
because I'm curious to see if I can
tell, how much do you think it saved you?
Maybe in, in hours or just
a multiple of whatever?
Like what did, do you think it saved you?
Zach Dioneda: hey look, you can find
production companies at various levels
to go out and shoot something for you.
So on the low end, could have
been a hundred thousand dollars,
it could have been more.
And the interesting thing is I shared it
with a lot of people and I used to work in
ad agencies and still have a lot of love
for ad agencies, but things are changing.
And a lot of people were very impressed
with the ad and kind of like a Oh wow.
Yeah.
Like things are changing.
But it also, even if we were to have
created that entirely internally,
it would've been at least two to
three days of shooting and prep
of that work, multiple people.
And instead we could kind of do
the entire thing with three people.
It still took hours, days even.
Like realistically, it took probably
two and a half weeks kind of end
to end not working on it 100%.
But because of the way that is structured,
you're able to also work on other things.
Where in a traditional production,
you're kind of like, okay, idea script,
pre-planning, pre-production, and you
have one or two people that are all in on
pre-production and then production, like,
you gotta go actually film the thing.
And now it's allowing us to kind of
condense that process, move even quicker.
And in this instance, actually
help bolster the creative idea.
Whereas, if we wanted to do this before,
we would've been confined to what
we could find via stock photography.
Instead, we could create something
that better fit the idea.
Araminta Robertson: Yeah.
That's amazing.
And also, this is just
the beginning, right?
I imagine each new ad you create
will take less and less time
as you tweak and improve the
processes, so, wow, that's amazing.
I love that.
So I wanna end on one last question
because this has been really interesting.
you and your team are very in
touch with how your target audience
thinks, especially now that you're
targeting more serious investors.
What is your favourite way to stay in
touch with how those serious investors
think and feel, worry, all those things?
You mentioned Twitter a few
times, so I wonder if that's your.
Zach Dioneda: Yeah.
Yeah.
think that's pretty accurate.
Like, one of the things that we've
always talked about is like, how
are we the company that has the
most direct line to our customers?
And that happens in a variety
of different ways and some
more than my team than others.
But like our product team takes very
regular calls with users and prospective
users to get feedback on the product.
People shake bugs into the
app and we look into 'em.
People respond on Reddit.
Like I said, Steven, our COO is
deep into Reddit, giving almost
CX level support at times.
And, he'll escalate things and he'll
take things offline, of course.
But we see that, and then that,
beyond that, we see that on Twitter.
We like to get out there.
One of the things that we have
also done is put a big focus
on creating like real organic
relationships with influential people.
And I say that specifically influential
people, not just influencers, but
people that are a little bit more
influential among their groups.
So maybe smaller audience
sizes or more longer tail.
But how do we create organic
relationships with them?
And that's really like a hand to hand,
man to man or woman to woman, right?
In this instance, Julia on my
team leads up this idea, and
she is on calls every day.
She's taking people out to coffee, she's
meeting people IRL whether it's in real
life at a coffee shop or a lunch, or
we're hosting a dinner, or it's over
Zoom, but she's actually meeting people.
And that extends into the broader team.
We host roughly once a month or once
every month we're hosting a dinner
to bring new creators or creator
like folks into the fold, meet them.
There's no ask, right?
We're not doing deep
demos at these dinners.
We are bringing people in to get to
know them, hear what they think speak
to them on their terms and in their
words and find out what they need, what
they want, how they see the landscape.
And it directly impacts how we market the
product as well as the features and tools
that are being built within the product.
Araminta Robertson: Nice.
Amazing.
Well, this has been fascinating.
Thanks so much, Zach, for your time.
I think it's really refreshing to see
a company that's doing real kind of
AI innovation, not just slapping AI
and saying, yeah, let's, we've got a
chat bot.
I think this, yeah, the
generated asset sounds.
It's really cool.
I can't wait to test it out.
So thanks so much for jumping on.
I really appreciate it.
Zach Dioneda: Absolutely.
And being on the lookout.
In the next couple weeks, we
have a few big announcements
we're very excited about.
Araminta Robertson: Excited to see it.
Thank you.
Zach Dioneda: It's been a pleasure.
outro: Thanks for listening.
You can find show notes and
information about guests@www.mint
copywriting studios.com/podcast.
And finally, huge thanks to orama
TV for producing this podcast.
Thanks for listening, and
see you at the next episode.