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We all know that choosing a college is one of the biggest investments your family will ever make, but it doesn't have to be the most stressful. Each and every episode, we pull up a virtual chair to cut through the jargon and tackle the real-world questions about admissions and finances and even the financial health and viability of colleges.
Gary D Stocker (00:01.346)
Welcome back to the Kitchen Table College Chat. Hi everybody, I'm Gary Stocker, alongside virtually with Mark DeBoer. Mark, good to see you again,
Marc DeBoer (00:09.315)
Great to see you.
Gary D Stocker (00:10.85)
You know, Mark, we've done this quite a few times now and we know that choosing a college is a monstrously big investment. And what you and I are doing on this podcast is we're offering a perspective, a different perspective, a new perspective, things for parents mostly, but for students and others to think about in the college admissions process, the college selection process, and even in the coming weeks and months, college itself. It's a perspective we have gained through our work in college and higher education.
And of course, sending our own children as I have through the college selection process. And we know from the literature, Mark, and let me kick this to you right off the bat, that we fall in love with our spouses, but sadly, we also fall in love with colleges and there's some risk with that, Mark.
Marc DeBoer (00:55.631)
First of all, that's a great analogy. I hope there's a difference though, between our spouses in college. But you know, it's interesting because I have to think of the proverbial question of what are you really falling in love with? And by that, I mean, is it the campus from a physical nature? Cause I think that's probably what the campus wants you to fall in love with. The typical collegiate environment.
You know, that list, it's historic and beautiful and it has decades, not hundreds of years of history. and it's bucolic and that, or it's the opposite. It's the city vibe and the hustle and the bustle and, and that, or are you actually falling in love with your major, the academics, the outcome, the ROI? I would think, and I have no statistics to back this up.
that most people are falling in love with the physical nature of the campus. And that's what the campus is hoping for. So I, I, I feel really, I have an internal angst with that because I don't like that. Um, because one of the things we said in our last episode, I told you, I let out one of my big secrets is how I will repaint the parking lot lines to make it look nicer for you. Uh,
Gary D Stocker (01:49.667)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (02:12.962)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc DeBoer (02:14.863)
Because there are real optics in that. So for you, Gary, know, how much should families really actually trust the gut feeling when they step on campus? And by that, mean, should they put aside that, wow, this is beautiful. This is it, insert child's name. This is it. This is the place. Or is it, hold on a second, this is beautiful, but let's
Let's remove that bias and let's hear it out first. How much should they be trusting that feeling?
Gary D Stocker (02:49.39)
Believe it or not, I just came from a breakfast with a college to-be mom and her 18 year old daughter. And they're looking at colleges throughout the southern part of the country. And we had this very conversation because I know where the college we're headed to, and I'm not going to mention it in the podcast, no need giving them any free marketing, is a financially solid one for sure. But I know from experience that when they go down there, they're going to fall in love. We fall in love with our spouse, our children as well. And it's important to note, moms and dads, boys and girls,
Marc DeBoer (02:59.907)
Okay.
Gary D Stocker (03:18.574)
that colleges market emotion. And Mark, you were just talking about that with the physical layout of the college. They market emotion. They don't market risk. They don't try and balance that. They will sell you on the physical layout, the campus, the green trees, the ivy covered walls, their majors, their talented faculty, all of which are commodities. And Mark, one of the things I shared with Yisheng Wu, who was impressive, by the way, looking at colleges was,
Marc DeBoer (03:25.497)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (03:46.264)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (03:49.582)
colleges are a commodity. They are a commodity because at the end of the day, you're getting that piece of paper that says, I have a diploma from this university, which in effect says, hey, I had the discipline and capacity to complete 120 some odd college credits with acceptable grades, and I'm done. That's the commodity. Now to get there, the trees are in different places, the grass is in different places, the buildings look different, the faculty is different, but it is the
Marc DeBoer (03:51.631)
Mmm
Gary D Stocker (04:18.67)
piece of paper, that commodity item at the end of the day, that's all colleges have. It's the same for everyone and with rare exception. Where FOMA comes from doesn't matter.
Marc DeBoer (04:30.275)
that's a really interesting point because if we were to have on, you and I both worked with enough professors that I think would vehemently disagree that we are not a commodity. Absolutely. You are saying blasphemy right now if we had a PhD professor here. Now, I agree with you, but we are not professors and we see it differently because if
Gary D Stocker (04:42.068)
I know, I know, I know.
Gary D Stocker (04:47.209)
I am.
Marc DeBoer (04:59.311)
higher education is a commodity, then you are saying that all colleges are the same, that you can receive a piece of paper and that paper is the same. Now there is some truth to that because if you are receiving a degree from an accredited body, then that accredited degree is the exactly the same because that's the point of the accreditation. So therefore the degree is no different. But then I guess that in theory answers the question falling in love with a campus or are you choosing a future?
that it's, you should be choosing a future and you have to really, it's, it's the student and parents job to find the differences between these campuses then, because if the outcome is exactly the same, then it's your job to do the homework and due diligence to find the differences of what happens from day one to day, you know, whatever it is, 1,200.
So, so one of the other things you also said too, you kind of said it in passing was, you know, having, having that emotional pull, during it. So let's go back now to that. Cause I found that interesting. Why, in your opinion, why do campuses feel so good during a tour? Like, like what, what's happening in that tour that we need to put parents and students on, on notice because colleges are doing what during that tour?
Gary D Stocker (06:27.042)
Well, it's an easy response. They're showing you all the good stuff.
Marc DeBoer (06:30.648)
Are you saying I'm not asking you hard questions?
Gary D Stocker (06:33.046)
Well, it's funny because when I had this breakfast with this young woman and mother this morning, I had no idea where the conversation was going to go, but was very, comfortable taking it where it went. And that's why it's, most of these questions I get even from reporters. had one yesterday on the phone. It's they're selling the same thing. They're showing you the same thing. They believe in that campus because that's where they're
Marc DeBoer (06:40.93)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (07:02.668)
livelihood comes from. And so they are sales reps. They don't get commissioned. It's important to know they don't because they can't. But they are selling what they are paid to sell. Just like, you know, before we started recording this morning, we're talking about cars. The people that sell cars are paid to sell cars. The people that do admissions to colleges tours are paid to sell colleges. Of course, they're going to show you the good stuff. That's why I'm here. That's why you're here. That's why that's why
Marc DeBoer (07:28.867)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (07:31.234)
The Kitchen Table College chat is here to give parents, students and others a perspective they would not otherwise have. And let's go back to my breakfast. You one of the many things that caught this young lady, she was impressive, I think I said that, was we talked four years versus six years and the four year graduation rate. And I talked about the opportunity cost of lost income if college, they don't talk about that. I bet through the history of mankind.
Marc DeBoer (07:46.542)
Mmm.
Marc DeBoer (07:51.778)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (07:57.678)
No college representative has ever talked about the difference between a four-year and six-year graduation rate on income. And so that's some of the value you and I provide with this podcast.
Marc DeBoer (08:04.078)
Well.
Yeah. And I think, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, I want to try and be a contrarian, because that's what, course I have to try because that's what creates engaging dialogue is all right. So colleges don't offer their ROIs, you know, in meaningful ways. They don't talk about the financial risks of four years or for six years. However, is it really their responsibility to do that? And by that, I mean, at some point in time,
Gary D Stocker (08:12.489)
come on, come on.
Marc DeBoer (08:35.902)
Every single college graduate, no matter what, will get a job. It might be a different aspect of life, whether they're going into the theater, into the arts, into software coding or the blue collar trades. You are going to go get a job. And when you interview with that employer, is it the employer's responsibility to say, Hey, our financials are, they are not good. You should not work at this company. We're actually going out of business in a year.
Or should the company say, you know what? So, our managers, they're kind of the worst. They, will work you to the bone. You'll work 60 hours a week. And I think you should second guess that application here. It's so to be that constraint. No company is doing that. No college is doing that. Nobody is doing that. So why should colleges do it if employers aren't doing it? Hey.
Gary D Stocker (09:29.578)
All right, Dr. Contrary, and you failed your, you have failed your role.
Marc DeBoer (09:33.684)
You said I asked you an easy question last time, so I had to ratchet it up a little bit.
Gary D Stocker (09:38.216)
You have filled your role as a contrarian very well and all the time, probably every podcast and every show that I do, every interview that I do, I talk about colleges spin things. the second, the next follow up is they're more than welcome to do that. For the reasons you just said, because they are there, they're being paid to sell that college. There's nothing wrong with that. Spin it any way you want. But again, that's why I have this business.
Marc DeBoer (09:47.031)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (09:53.72)
Sure. Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (10:06.467)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (10:06.7)
That's why you and I are doing this podcast because you need the anti-spending or we are, you and I are kind of the quality control mechanism for higher education spin. We are independent. We don't make any money from the podcast. We share our perspective. We provide guidance. And this is the opportunity for parents to say, Hmm, I hadn't thought of that falling in love concept. I hadn't thought of four years versus six years. That's the role you and I play.
You and I stumbled upon each other on through social media. This is not, you know, some long-term friendship where we decided to do a podcast together. We stumbled on each other. We talked about it. We saw an opportunity. And this is, I don't know, Mark, if it's being too courageous to say this or not, but we are providing a public service.
Marc DeBoer (10:37.122)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (10:53.474)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I agree. I do agree with that. And I think the reality is no company, neither college is ultimately going to show the cards in their sleeves. They're not going to release the dirty information because the end of the day, everybody in every aspect of their life and every job is selling something. and I agree with you. We have no intention here. We're not selling anything. We're giving information. It's companies.
You know, any company, could be the local HVAC guy coming to your house. They are not coming just to fix your air conditioner. They're coming to fix it and upsell you on something. And it's the same with colleges. There is an upsell. There is, hey, this is the best. It's your job to be the diligent consumer to say, hold on a second. So then on that thought process, I know you have no data for this, but what does your gut say? How often...
How frequently do you think families in the position of choosing colleges are choosing that college based on a feeling versus data? How many of you say, are they're going in and saying, yeah, this is, we asked our questions. We have enough information. We are good. Got feeling versus data. What's your percentage?
Gary D Stocker (12:13.07)
really, really, really high percentage, 90 plus percent on falling in love because that's what the culture suggests. That's what your peers do. You know, this young woman that was with her mother this morning, she a couple of times referenced her friends and some were choosing colleges that she shared the names with me. I said, they're in trouble. One she is focusing on, they're going to the tour today, not in trouble. One of the few that's financially strong.
Marc DeBoer (12:15.341)
Wow!
Yes. Yes.
Gary D Stocker (12:42.752)
So yeah, and that's, had a guy tell me many years ago that Gary, you're creating a new market and that new market is getting data in front of parents about college selection. And when you create a new market, it either takes a lot of money or a lot of time. And my perspective, it's going to take a lot of time. That's why I like doing these kinds of podcasts. It's part of the process to change the culture to the extent one guy, two guys can in the middle of America about the college selection process, as you've heard me say.
Marc DeBoer (12:48.845)
Hmm.
Marc DeBoer (12:57.644)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (13:12.686)
There are too many colleges. Some need to and will go away. It's just a function of time.
Marc DeBoer (13:18.635)
Yeah, yeah, no, it will. That's the natural course of life. It happens in the corporate world. There's always &A and that's how ultimately the structure of our of America society is built on capitalism. Whether we like it or not, whether we disagree or not, we are on capitalism where the strong survive. And that's the same for colleges. So now let's get into a question where where I think you do have data and I'll ask it different and then reframe it for our listeners.
Gary D Stocker (13:32.556)
Right?
Gary D Stocker (13:36.386)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (13:47.254)
You know, where, where, where where the, where you find out the student has loved the camera, they chose the campus. How many times did you think after the student has chosen a campus, how many times does it turn out to be the wrong decision for that student? So now I'll reframe that question. When we look at now for the data people, we look at the freshmen to sophomore year rate. That's called the persistence rate. Persistence measures year over year. Retention measures longer, maybe four years.
So can we look at the first year to second year persistence rate and then based on that rate, can we then make a conclusion that say, all right, if the average persistence rate of a freshman is 75%, does that therefore mean 25 % of students made the wrong decision and they probably made that decision on loving the campus and they came on and said, uh-oh.
Gary D Stocker (14:42.467)
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a leap of logic to go that the retention rate means they chose the wrong campus. But you ask for a number. And since I look at that all the time, my threshold is 70, 70%. If that retention rate is below 70%, then that college is either misrepresenting itself or the students have chosen that college mistakenly or during the course of being at that college, they found a better option.
Marc DeBoer (14:45.663)
What does that data say?
Marc DeBoer (15:06.157)
Mmm.
Marc DeBoer (15:10.732)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (15:14.444)
guess you could look at all three as possibilities for that. But if your retention is below 70%, the market is speaking for whatever reasons, the market is speaking. Now, on the other hand, if your retention is above 90%, something like that, then you're doing something right. And others should be mimicking what you're doing. But it could be as simple as something you're doing right, is you have enough sections. You have sections offered at the right time of day. You're graduating people in four years, not six years. It could be things as simple as that.
Marc DeBoer (15:27.777)
Mmm, yep.
Marc DeBoer (15:39.522)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now two follow-up questions. Number one, there are two types of colleges in America, for-profit and non-profit. The overwhelming majority of colleges in America are non-profit. But then within the non-profit bucket, there are two types of college, public and private. Can you give me those numbers or give, not me, give our listeners?
What are the persistence rates for first-year students of private versus public? Is there a difference? Should there be a difference?
Gary D Stocker (16:16.342)
I haven't noticed any statistically significant difference. Now, to be fair, to be fair, should drill down on that for another time. But to be fair, as I look at the numbers, I don't separate between public and private. And they're consistently either good or not good along those lines. But you mentioned about types of colleges. There's also types of students.
Marc DeBoer (16:19.959)
Okay, so then it's good. yeah, yes.
Marc DeBoer (16:35.031)
Ha
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (16:41.614)
And there's two types of students. And you and I have talked about this before, and these topics will come up again and again. There are students like you were back in your day and me back in my day. We were going to college come hell or high water. It would build into us for whatever reason. We're going to be successful for whatever reason. My spouse, my children, many of my relatives have had a fabulous experience for college. They were just predetermined. That was just built in. Family culture, whatever the case may be. The second type of college student is not that.
Marc DeBoer (16:43.053)
Okay.
Marc DeBoer (16:57.452)
Yes.
Marc DeBoer (17:08.876)
Mmm.
Gary D Stocker (17:09.9)
they are being sold to that following in love approach we're talking about. The colleges are selling to the folks who are less academically prepared, less socially prepared, less financially prepared. And they're doing the beauty of the campus in part, but in part, they're also selling, hey, everybody else has a college degree, you need one too. And that's where the big issue I have. These are the folks who go to college for a year, leave for whatever reason.
Marc DeBoer (17:18.594)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (17:29.739)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (17:38.979)
are stuck with the debt. And that's the way I look at colleges, not public or private, but the type of student that goes to colleges.
Marc DeBoer (17:46.047)
Hmm. That's a really, I mean, that is a topic for a whole nother episode because you're absolutely right. I firmly believe that college is not for everybody and that is okay. You do not need to go to college to be successful. There are plenty paths in life. That doesn't mean college is bad. Not at all. It just means if you're going to go to college, please go to college with intention. Don't go there to find yourself.
Gary D Stocker (17:50.818)
Yeah, yeah.
Gary D Stocker (18:06.797)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (18:15.286)
That's a very, very expensive proposition. So, so with that kind of going back to our, greater theme of the kitchen, the proverbial kitchen table, and here we are sitting at it. When your child says, you know, mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, I just love that place. I love the tour. I just, I know that's the place.
What should parents, how should parents be handling that? What should they be saying? How should they be challenging back? What should they do?
Gary D Stocker (18:50.988)
Well, we love our children beyond measurable amounts. And so we want to do for them almost anything that they want, even when they're 18 years old and maybe their brain is not fully functioning yet. We want to really give our children what they want. And I guess I'm going to draw an analogy on this. again, Mark, you and I talked about this before we started recording. the analogy is going to be with houses. And as you know, saw ball, saw them bought a house.
Marc DeBoer (19:13.259)
Yes.
Okay.
Gary D Stocker (19:21.12)
my wife and I, and part of that process is getting a housing inspector on both ends to make sure that what we fell in love with for the house that we bought is going to be sturdy enough to be there in four years or 10 years or 20 years, however long we live there. And it's the same thing for colleges. If for parents, their child wants a university, they've fallen in love. That's the first commitment. The second commitment is to get that equivalent of a housing inspector
Marc DeBoer (19:25.621)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (19:50.87)
Mmm
Gary D Stocker (19:50.936)
and we'll call it a college inspector. That's probably not the best term. And it's not even a person, it's the data. Because as you know, we do sell things. I do sell things on this podcast, or at I promote them. And that is the college viability transparency tool. And that's a tool that parents will, it kind of serves the role as being a college inspector to let you know if that college is canceling courses or programs. If they have low enrollment majors, if your child's looking at journalism,
Marc DeBoer (19:54.892)
Yeah
Gary D Stocker (20:19.894)
and falling in love with the college and they have five journalism majors graduate per year, that ain't good. That's not good. That's a high risk program for being cut. So you want to engage a college inspector, for lack of a better word. You want to use tools like the ones I've created to look deep into that house, to make sure there's no water under the floorboards or mold behind my wall or cracks in the driveway or the HVAC is ready to fall apart.
Marc DeBoer (20:29.279)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (20:48.034)
You want that equivalent inspection so you know when your child goes to this university, they are going to be taken care of or not.
Marc DeBoer (20:56.758)
Well, so my first thought is maybe, maybe our listeners can chime in, you know, comments or thoughts, but maybe we should rename ourselves the college inspectors. We might have a new podcast title. Maybe we can come with badges. We can make hats. It could be really cool. but, but to, you know, to continue on then. What, what do you, well, let's, let me, I was going to ask one question, but I want to go back.
Gary D Stocker (21:07.182)
You
Marc DeBoer (21:25.162)
then relative to your tools, and I agree, you if we have our inspection tools, our toolkit, our ba ba ba ba ba, our stuff, who is the person then that is responsible for this then? Is it the parent, guardian, you know, uncle, grandma, parent, that should they be doing it? Is it their responsibility and therefore removing that from the student? Or ultimately, should the student be taking it on? Because then the question is, who's the person ultimately signing the dotted line?
Gary D Stocker (21:38.562)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (21:54.399)
Is it the student, the parent or guardian? Who should be doing it? Should the student be absolved from this and say, mom and dad, they're doing it. I'm good. They say it's good. Let's go. Or should the student have some, some skin in the game?
Gary D Stocker (22:09.772)
You know, I'm going, it's going to be purely personal opinion. To answer your question, whoever pays the mortgage or the rent makes the decision.
Marc DeBoer (22:16.331)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (22:22.996)
Ooh, okay. mean, I think that's 99 % the parent or guardian then. Yeah. See, I would, as the contrarian, I would say it differently. I think it is our job. I mean, you're right. I do agree with you. Yes, you're right. However, the contrarian in me says, if we are to be good parents, and I may get a lot of flack for this,
Gary D Stocker (22:29.388)
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Marc DeBoer (22:50.492)
If we are to be good parents, part of our job, part of our responsibility is to teach financial responsibility and stewardship. You, the student, are taking on this debt. You are the one who is receiving the product and or service. You need to learn responsibility. It is our job as parents to teach responsibility. That does not mean the parent can't or shouldn't sign for it and do the due diligence. However,
Aren't we doing a disservice to our children by removing that ability for them to say, Hey, you need to do your due diligence. Because then when they graduate and they go to buy their first time house using your house analogy, will they even know they need an inspector? Why? I didn't need an inspector for college. Like I just, I just went, I just showed up. What are you telling me? I need an inspector to look at plumbing. What are you talking about? So, whereas.
Gary D Stocker (23:43.832)
You know.
Marc DeBoer (23:44.628)
The parent comes in and says, no, no, no, you had a college inspector. You need a house inspector using your analogy.
Gary D Stocker (23:51.96)
You know, you talked about hats a minute ago in the college inspectors. think I've got an idea for another hat. It's called the, and the hat would have on the top of it, college contrarian.
Marc DeBoer (24:01.855)
yes, yes! Everyone likes a good alliterative phrase. Alliteration is a beautiful thing.
Gary D Stocker (24:06.838)
And you know, the parents can of course serve the role as contrarian for their children to the extent they're comfortable. But maybe the role people like you and I feel are that contrarian piece for parents. And I've shared this and this is kind of how we market the podcast. We are contrarians. We provide a perspective that almost no other parent has. We bring in that financial health piece. We take a look at what colleges try and market and say, hey,
Marc DeBoer (24:13.727)
Yes.
Marc DeBoer (24:22.271)
Yeah. Yep.
Gary D Stocker (24:33.496)
Here's what their thought process is. Here's what they're doing. Here's ways to think about it. You and I are really both contrarians. And so we'll need two kind of hats, two hats, one that says college contrarian and the other that says college inspector.
Marc DeBoer (24:35.691)
Sure.
Marc DeBoer (24:45.803)
I mean, maybe we are the college contrarians. That is also a great podcast name. I mean, we're just flowing with it today. But so the question I wanted to ask you before, before I deviated on who's responsible is that, okay, but they're also very similar. What would you say to a parent or guardian whose child is emotionally locked in on one's school? Just, know, Jim John Joe University is, you know, that's the one. I don't care what you say.
Gary D Stocker (24:50.38)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (25:16.011)
But Johnny, that school costs $80,000 a year. I don't care. I know that's a school. It's the best outcomes. It's the best major, but Johnny, it costs 85,000 and we don't have that money. What do you say to the parent whose kid is emotionally locked in?
Gary D Stocker (25:33.366)
You know, probably the toughest contrarian question you've asked today, which means I don't look forward to your questions in the future because it's a tough one. And it goes, I don't know that I can answer that. It's a parent child decision making process. Some parents will yield to that. Some will look at the objective nature of the finances. And even the mom that I talked to today, she has already inherited her family's estate, modest though it may be. And she's filled out the FAFSA.
Marc DeBoer (25:39.263)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (25:46.133)
Sure. Sure.
Marc DeBoer (25:53.237)
Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (25:59.487)
Sure. Yep.
Gary D Stocker (26:01.632)
And I said, whatever kind of college discount slash scholarship one and same you get from this college you were looking at, don't let them take the value of whatever that estate was from your parents and claim that as claim that as income to help pay for college, because that's your retirement. And you and I are the ones that sit here and say to parents, this is some perspective. you may again, we love our children. There's no way around that. And we want the best for them. But, you know, you can look at me and I know this is just an audio only podcast.
Marc DeBoer (26:16.393)
Yes. Yes.
Gary D Stocker (26:30.126)
But if you looked at me, you'd see I'm a lot older than Mark. And, you know, my stage of life, I'm OK because we have prepared for this stage of life. We're OK financially because we prepared for this. And for our children, luckily, we didn't have to sell a proverbial farm and future assets, future value, future finances to get them through college. But I know just from my experience and reading and research that too many other parents do that. And most of that, Mark, to change the topic a little bit.
Marc DeBoer (26:38.282)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (26:59.744)
is that parent plus loan? And I told this woman, this mom, I said, under no circumstances should you choose a college that requires you to take out a parent plus loan. And she loves her daughter as much as you and I love our children.
Marc DeBoer (26:59.797)
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Marc DeBoer (27:09.716)
Yes.
Yes, yes. And I agree. And you know, also unrelated, but I agree with it though on a different topic relative to loans. I also am a firm believer in, most colleges, if not all colleges have it, of work study and the work study program that you should have a job during college. Like no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You should have a job because you are partaking in this financial burden. And I don't care if you've got the million dollar scholarship, you will learn a lot more.
from having a job on campus, you will have a better story when you have that first interview with your employer of how you juggled a job on campus. And maybe you had a little bit of a lower GPA, a 3.1 or a 3.2. But look at all the things I was juggling successfully, as opposed to the student who had the 3.9 GPA, but juggled nothing. You are not as interesting as a person. Of course you got a 3.9. You did nothing else but sit in the library and study. Good for you. Great. That's easy.
It's so, so, so yeah. So I also see we are coming close to our time. So I will ask you the, the last question then it, and it kind of goes back to the beginning are, and the answer is it's our families, not should families, our families choosing a campus or are they choosing a future? And what are they actually doing? What do you feel? Do you feel they're choosing campus or do you feel they're choosing a future?
Gary D Stocker (28:35.502)
Well, those are two separate questions and they're choosing a future. No question. They're choosing a future. There's no way around it. The immediacy is they're choosing the whatever set of green trees and green grass and ivy covered buildings that they select, but they're choosing a future really not just for the child or children. But if you think about they're choosing a future for themselves, because if those children choose a major and become financially successful, that's much less of a burden on the parents.
Marc DeBoer (28:38.355)
Yeah, Yep.
Marc DeBoer (28:46.219)
Yep.
Marc DeBoer (28:55.477)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (29:03.176)
as they age and are trying to gather their resources for the stage of life I'm at, which having the resources to be able to live comfortably while not engaged in full time work for somebody else. And so really, there's two futures at stake, the child's and the parents. And what do they choose? What was the second question, Mark?
Marc DeBoer (29:19.413)
Well, it's basically, they, again, the topic of our podcast was falling in love with a campus or choosing a future. Do we feel families are choosing a campus or do we feel they are choosing a future? And yeah, and I agree. I wholeheartedly agree. I think they should be choosing a future, but they are choosing a campus.
Gary D Stocker (29:31.5)
choosing a campus. Sadly.
Gary D Stocker (29:41.614)
Culture eats change for lunch. Yeah, culture eats change for lunch. And to get past that, the culture is built in. It takes time. It takes persistence. It takes what you and I are doing, and probably many, many others saying the same thing. And so we have looked at today's topic was falling in love with the college. most, I'm sure I did that back in the day. I'm guessing you did back in the day. It's tough, but the market is changing.
The financial health of colleges change and we talk about the tour to the campus. Colleges will show you all that green stuff, but they're not going to show you the green stuff behind the scenes that they don't have. They're not going to talk about their financial instability. And we can't blame them for that. That's no business would normally do that. That's why I'm here to a lesser extent, Mark, that's why you're here. Moms, dads, grandpas and grandpas, grandpas and grandmas, aunts and uncles. This is a different higher education world. And the financial capacity of a college to provide your student or students
with a high quality or even reasonable quality college education is dependent on their financial health. And there are hundreds of both public and private colleges not in a position to do that. And I say that from research and data and constant work in this field, Mark. I'll let you do the rap.
Marc DeBoer (30:55.914)
That's it. agree. hope the takeaway for the parents and I hope the takeaway for the students is that it's a shared burden between both that you must do your due diligence that colleges, some colleges have over 200 years of experience of perfecting their sales technique and their sales pitch for why they are the best. They know what they're doing. They're very good at it. It's take off the rose colored glasses, see it for what it is. Do your due diligence.
Ask the hard questions, do not be afraid to challenge back and get the information you need to make the right decision.
Gary D Stocker (31:33.76)
Yep. So Mark, always a pleasure. So for Mark DeBoer, I'm Gary Stocker with yet another episode of Kitchen Table College Chat. We'll be back next week with another topic. And as always, if you have questions, comments, concerns, pushback, if you want to be contrarian, drop me an email to gary at college viability dot com. That's gary at college viability dot com. We'll be glad to have your questions, comments, concerns or whatever on the show. Until next week. We'll talk then.