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In a world that feels increasingly chaotic, uncertain, and hard to make sense of, Realms of Curiosity with Sarah and Wendy offers a different kind of conversation.
Drawing from shamanic practice, psychology, and decades of firsthand experience with non-ordinary reality, Sarah and Wendy explore the deeper forces shaping our inner and outer worlds—from intuition and consciousness to deception, transformation, and the shifting nature of truth itself.
They don’t claim to have answers. Instead, they follow curiosity into the unknown—questioning, exploring, and inviting you to do the same.
Because in times like these, curiosity might be one of the most powerful tools we have.
Welcome to Realms of Curiosity. Listen in as two friends explore the mysteries of the Universe through the lens of their otherworldly experiences.
Sarah:Hi, Wendy.
Wendy:Hey Sarah. How are you doing today?
Sarah:Well, today's an interesting day.
Wendy:It is, isn't it? It's It's been a weird week.
Sarah:Very weird week.
Wendy:Yeah. Let's see how weird this conversation will get.
Sarah:What are we talking about today?
Wendy:I wanted to ask you this question that I was thinking about yesterday. I was wondering, do you feel like anything in your life has ever been fated? Like, things that happened just seem so beautifully orchestrated.
Sarah:Like a synchronous kind
Wendy:of Yeah. Like Finn walking into the background and and then getting into the picture just oh, it oh, never mind! I brought attention to him. Hello. Oh, buddy.
Sarah:I'm not sure what's happening with him right now, but hello? Are you wanting to be a movie star?
Wendy:So do you feel like anything in your life is just that you would describe as
Sarah:Divine intervention or Yeah.
Wendy:Or how yeah. However you wanna
Sarah:or Mhmm. Whatever. Yeah. I mean, I feel that a lot and like, a lot.
Wendy:Is there a good example, like a dramatic one that you would give?
Sarah:Well, do you remember that story I told about how I discovered shamanism? And and, you know, that felt to me very
Wendy:Back in art school, you mean?
Sarah:Yeah. Like, I you know, I'm a person who who is very aware of when I'm I'm very aware of patterns. I'm very aware of things that feel like, what's that? You know? So as a result, in my life, I I'm aware of those those things that give me a sensation where I think, oh, pay attention to this.
Sarah:So I I feel like the universe is very interactive. You know? Consciousness is very interactive. There's always this relationship going on where I'm being shown things and where I where I feel things more strongly. And
Wendy:So something that gets your attention in a big way. In a big way. In as opposed to grocery shopping and seeing something on the shelf that's like, oh, that looks really good. I'm going to try that. Not that kind of attention.
Wendy:Not that kind attention. Bigger. That was, like, the lamest example ever, but there you go.
Sarah:Yeah. But no. That you're right. No no to that. And and yes to just that feeling when something comes in and you think, oh, that's that's important to pay attention to.
Sarah:Or, you know, the I mean, the question so you, in all fairness, you asked me this question yesterday. Did I ever think about this? And when you asked it to me, and then we stopped texting, and I started thinking about it, and I thought, I don't know. I don't think about it that much. And I I started to mow on it as as the day went on.
Sarah:And you told me that you asked you got this insight that we should talk about this when you were in the shower. And then I got in the bath last night, and I started thinking about this. And, like, there was so much mulling that was going on. You know? And I thought maybe it's got to do with water.
Sarah:No. I'm joking. But I you know, I part of me thinks life is completely random, and part of me thinks life is completely magical. And I do believe in both of those things, having equal power. And it's really what I pay attention to or that that gives it the magic.
Sarah:And that there's just all this am I making any sense whatsoever?
Wendy:Yeah. You are. Yeah.
Sarah:K. There's all this random stuff that is happening around us, and we pay attention to certain things. And very often, those certain things are the synchronicities or the important things that, oh, I should pay attention to this right now, or this is interesting how this worked. But there's also the so both. There is random, and there is divine intervention.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. I'm just curious about all of this. I think it's kind of fun to think about. So when you notice something out of the ordinary that seems more mat in the under the magical
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Heading Yeah. Is that sort of a random noticing, or is it a an intentional noticing?
Sarah:It's random. It's I I feel like it's my intuitive attention. You know, some intuition kicks So it's a deeper. The
Wendy:deeper, yeah. Attention.
Sarah:Yeah, the deeper attention. And there's certain physical things that happen to me when I'm supposed to pay supposed to. I maybe it wasn't supposed to. But when I'm about to pay attention, there's there's, like, a feeling I get with it. Like like, oh, that's something.
Sarah:Pay attention to that. You know?
Wendy:Okay. Yeah.
Sarah:Or there's a message that comes from somewhere.
Wendy:Well, that's what I wanted to ask. Where do you think this is coming from? Or
Sarah:I think it's coming from the big consciousness.
Wendy:You know? Yeah. So why would the big consciousness give a shit?
Sarah:Well, I don't even know if it does give a shit. Maybe it's just giving all these things all the time, and it is it is random. And maybe it's what we pay attention to. Because often when you get, like, a synchronicity of some kind, it's at a time when you're struggling with something or something important is happening or, like, oh, I fell in love with this person, and there was a random synchronicity. You know?
Sarah:Or somebody died, and I knew before the event happened. Or, you know, there's they seem to be big things where but I think in my world, it's not only big things. It's like there's a lot of small things too, just these, like like, for example, I have a mantra that I use when I'm feeling kind of not great. And I'll I'll just move out of that not great place, and I'll say, I invite the universe to surprise me in joyful ways. I like that.
Sarah:And the second you do it, it all starts to change. It immediately changes. It's like the surprises are there. It's me who's not paying attention to them. And by saying the mantra, I'm opening my eyes to the surprises.
Wendy:The magic that's already there.
Sarah:Magic that's already there. So it's random already there, but it's also magic that's already there.
Wendy:Yeah. Alright. Yeah. No. That that's it's so interesting, and it's so interesting to hear your perspectives too.
Wendy:I mean, I have thought about this some over the years because of experiences I've had that make me wonder, is there something bigger going on?
Sarah:Yeah. So what what do you think?
Wendy:I think there's something bigger going on.
Sarah:But not randomness to me?
Wendy:Well, no. I wonder too about what you're saying is if if the seeming randomness is just a lack of attention. Right. And that maybe things aren't as random as maybe they appear to be.
Wendy:I don't know. I have no idea. I mean, I haven't thought about that part as much. I think more about the big hits, the big moments where, like, something
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Really gets your attention
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And and can change the course of your life on occasions, like the big ones, the big instances.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:I think my biggest example would be meeting my favorite husband.
Sarah:It's you make it sound as like you've had 20 husbands.
Wendy:Yeah. There's so many. There's so many. But it was one of those random experiences, seemingly random experiences. I was studying martial arts, living in Phoenix.
Wendy:I had left the first marriage. There's not 20. There was only one! And was living on my own, studying martial arts. And there was gonna be a big festival in Denver where all the different schools from around the region were gonna be coming together to to learn some more material and to gather with the the grandmaster.
Wendy:This was Shaolin Kung Fu. So a bunch of us from the Phoenix school rented a van, and we drove out to Denver. And that first evening after we arrived, we dropped our our teacher off at this big park in Denver. It was beautiful. And gotta remember, I was in Phoenix, flat, brown, dry, you know, except for the mountains in the distance, and the grass people grew.
Wendy:That was the only green that didn't belong there. And, so we get to the park and we get out of the van to just to walk around and stretch our legs. Our teacher was testing from second to third degree black belt, and we weren't allowed to stay because it's top secret stuff. And I'm standing there talking with some of my buddies, hanging out, just watching, and there is this guy across the way in an all black gi with a long ponytail, his back to me. And my eye just went over to his ponytail, And he turned around, and everything fucking slowed down.
Wendy:Everything slowed down. And it was the feeling of every hair on my body rose, like I was on high alert. And I all the sound got weird around me. All the voices got muffled.
Sarah:Mhmm. And
Wendy:our eyes met for a moment, and I just remember hitting my buddy Randy next to me on the thigh and pointing in this guy's direction, the ponytail guy. And I'm like, who's that? And he said, oh, that's John Halley. You should just admire him from a distance just like my girlfriend is right now. And and it was, yeah, it was just the most dramatic moment I had ever experienced in my life.
Wendy:And so that weekend, my eyes kept meeting this guy named John Halley across the park. And the park was filled with 250 of us all in gi's Yeah. Just studying the a new form. And, eventually, we talked, me and John Halley. We talked, and I yeah.
Wendy:I, managed to find words. I drove the van back to Phoenix after the whole festival was done, and I remembered on that long drive, holy shit, that guy was in my dream
Sarah:Oh, interesting.
Wendy:About six months ago.
Sarah:Oh, interesting. Interesting. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. One thing led to another, and it ended up being this really beautiful, magical experience.
Sarah:How many years ago was that?
Wendy:That was in, 1997. So it was a long time ago.
Sarah:Long time ago. And you
Wendy:said that I mean yeah. Yeah. We're we're
Sarah:And he's still pretty spectacular looking.
Wendy:He's still he's very, very handsome. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. He's very handsome.
Sarah:I remember the first time I saw him, and I thought, oh, okay.
Wendy:Striking. Yes.
Sarah:Very striking. And and, like, energetically, a presence. You know, like
Wendy:Oh, yeah. He's got a big presence.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Big presence. Reserved. He's reserved.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. Anyway, that was like this this experience. When we parted ways, John and I, at the park at the end of that whole long martial arts weekend, he said, yeah. I'm gonna be coming out west and visiting all the schools because he was a big deal in that school system. He would teach.
Wendy:Mhmm. And he said, I just wanna come visit all the schools and I wanna surf down the coast of California. Mhmm. And I'm gonna be driving back through Phoenix and I'm like, oh, maybe I can show you around. It just came out of my mouth.
Wendy:I hadn't even said more than 75 words to him all weekend. And he's like, alright. And so that's July, and the months went by like molasses, and all I could think about was this guy. And I kept thinking about why am I thinking about this guy so much. I mean, other than he was extremely handsome and extremely talented as a martial artist.
Wendy:I mean, he had a gaggle of women following him around all weekend. There were and he was oblivious to it. But, anyway, he showed up at our school in November, and that was it.
Sarah:Interesting. And
Wendy:it turned out we both had had a similar reaction. He was like, I had to come here to find out to look into what why I had this reaction when I met you back in July.
Sarah:So what do you think that is? That
Wendy:Well, I knew him. If that's the thing that I it felt familiar. Like, I had an instant comfort with this guy that didn't make sense for someone who's really not always comfortable in social situations, especially when I first meet someone.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And so I had a high degree of comfort with him. And there's a familiarity that I can't really describe. So it felt familiar. I dreamed of him before I met him, like, six months or so before. So it it got my attention.
Sarah:Mhmm. For sure.
Wendy:Yeah. That's to me a big one. And my the whole course of my life changed as a result of him turning around in that park.
Sarah:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:But it sounds so dramatic when I say it out loud. Right? But that's just that's an example of of that. But I've had other ones too that are similar, and it just makes me wonder about this idea of things being faded. Are we supposed to have certain experiences at certain points of our lives in order to to to change course or to give us the opportunity to change course?
Sarah:But are we supposed to have those experiences? Like, that's the part I I question. Like, I I don't feel as though anything specific is is preordained. Like, I have I I do feel that there is I am not sure. I'm not sure about about that.
Sarah:I mean, I've had those experiences too. I have very similar experience with who became my husband. Mhmm. Looking at him and knowing him, like, right away. And same for him.
Sarah:He looked across the street at me and felt like, uh-oh. You know?
Wendy:And he was right. And he
Sarah:was right. And I was right. And, you know, the rest is history. But and we are not together now, but, certainly, the things I learned in life, I'm very grateful to that.
Wendy:Exactly. So it not that every so that particular instance that I shared had a happy ending, but not every single one does.
Sarah:No.
Wendy:And and is that part of the point? Is that we're supposed to and I'm using the word supposed to, I guess, maybe that or the words. Maybe that's strong language. Maybe we're invited to. Because my conclusion because I've looked into this a little bit shamanically and whether I perceived it correctly or not is another story, but is that our lives do seem to be beautifully orchestrated in this way, at least at pivotal points that could be big opportunities for evolutionary leaps Yes.
Wendy:For our human selves. Exactly. And it seems to be the case what we were talking about a couple episodes ago, the higher mind or the higher self is the one who's orchestrating, is the part of us that's orchestrating, so our higher consciousness is. Because there's no time there, perhaps there's a blueprint for the ideal trajectory of the life to meet certain evolutionary goals.
Sarah:But that would imply that there's no free will.
Wendy:Not necessarily because you still your humanness has choice. You well, can either take yourself up on that opportunity or not.
Sarah:Well, that yeah. That's
Wendy:John John may not have gone maybe he he would have driven right through Phoenix. Right? Or or and I would have just been pining for him.
Sarah:Drowned surfing off
Wendy:the cliff. Right now. Yeah. Yeah. Or he could have drowned.
Wendy:Yep. God. No. I mean No. I'm just thinking Sarah.
Sarah:Well, no. But it's true.
Wendy:I'm just kidding. Yeah. No. No. That I was I was kidding.
Wendy:But, yeah, it was so magical, and it got my attention in such a way that it was hard to ignore.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Because Yeah.
Wendy:Really, seriously, pay attention to this. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. And I think we get those I like the word invitation. I think there is an aspect of the the mystical realms that give us invitations all the time. And sometimes we turn away from them, and sometimes we don't. Excuse me.
Sarah:But the more we're paying attention, the more we're allowing our intuitive self to be just paying attention, I think the more of those experiences we have.
Wendy:And I wonder if it's like a collaboration too between your human self and your spirit self, your higher mind or whatever you wanna call it. Where Yeah. I think. Because if I mean, if you're really there's different drives that we have. Right?
Wendy:There's there's a drive from what you would call the ego mind or your ego in general, and then there's the drive from your heart
Sarah:Mhmm.
Wendy:Like a a passion that feels maybe it sounds ridiculous or whatever, but you really wanna this is important to you. Where your ego mind might be doing it because it wants to it wants to get fluffed up or it wants it wants acknowledgment or recognition or to be famous or wealthy or whatever.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:Status. Yeah. So two different like, we're talking about the three souls concept a couple times ago too. They each have their own independent goals. And so the ego, the mental soul, it just wants to plan shit out.
Wendy:It just wants to to understand and figure things out, so it gets caught in that place. And then the the body soul is trying really hard to, keep you safe. Mhmm. And then there's the spirit soul, the higher mind that will go with whatever. Just just but it also might have some wishes for your experience that you prepared ahead of time that you may or may not take yourself up on?
Sarah:Yeah. I think that's absolutely true. Okay. And I think so when I said that I I think those invitations are are there all the time, and it's it's we who are not necessarily in our higher self or connected to our higher self. Sometimes we get really caught in the swampy ego areas.
Sarah:Right? And then we're not paying attention so much to those other realms that are inviting us. Because we're
Wendy:It would be impossible, I would think, because there's
Sarah:be impossible.
Wendy:Because it creates all that noise inside of you. You can't even
Sarah:the noise.
Wendy:Pick up that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Can't hear it or notice it.
Sarah:Yeah. And and that's funny. As I as I age, I'm aging, and the world is is in this very chaotic place. And I find I'm just so uninterested in it. I really am.
Sarah:You know? Like, I I pay attention, and I look at my phone, and I do all the things that humans are supposed to be doing, and I listen to what is happening. But there's, like, part of me that's just become completely, like, okay. There's that now. And I'm over here doing this instead of being over there doing that.
Sarah:You know? So I think there is a choice that we have of What do you
Wendy:think that's suggesting that that desire to just kind of I don't know if withdraw is the right word. Or
Sarah:I think I'm more in connection with my higher self.
Wendy:Okay.
Sarah:I feel like like that's it's it's like a constant interaction that's going on. So, yes, the world is also random, but I'm feeling a and I think, you know, am I gonna die soon? Is that what's happening here? You know? Like, I feel like I'm moving out of something and into something else in a in a deeper way as I age.
Sarah:And maybe that's normal. I I don't know. Maybe people do
Wendy:Well, maybe it's normal for someone who spends a lot of time with one foot in this physical world and another foot in this Yeah. Non ordinary world.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. And I I think, oh my gosh. I mean, talk about a beautiful unfolding in my life. When when I chose to move to Los Angeles, I mean, yes, I had been studying shamanism and very involved for many, many years.
Sarah:But what I didn't realize that moving here, would have so many clients that I would spend most of my day in an altered state of consciousness. Like, what what a gift. You know? So that was not happening in Vermont? No.
Sarah:I didn't have as many people. I didn't have people who were who were operating. I mean, people in Los Angeles are very you know, they're very creative. There's there's a lot of interesting people here. And those that would choose to come to me to work with are obviously in certain areas of interest.
Wendy:You know? I gotcha. Okay. So it was kind of like a perfect fit. Perfect.
Wendy:So was it because of the culture, was it because it was you in the place you needed to be? Both. Because would every shamanic practitioner who goes out there be having the same experience as you, or is it specific to you?
Sarah:I think it's specific to me.
Wendy:Right. Yeah. So to me, that would be part of this beautiful orchestration. I like the idea whether it's bullshit or not, but I like the idea that there are these touch points in life. Man, I have this here here's a trippy story that just popped into my head.
Wendy:I told somebody about it recently. I don't think I talked about it with you in this venue. So I talked about my Mustang, my '67 Mustang, which I loved Yes. All my heart. Yeah.
Wendy:So I had moved to Denver, had my Mustang, and I was driving down this road. It was called it's called Spear Road, and there's I can't remember. Two or three lanes all going in one direction. There's a waterway, and then there's two or three lanes the other direction. And there's these little bridges that cross the waterway that connects the two lanes and then also can lead you into Downtown Denver.
Wendy:I'm driving in my Mustang to work, and up ahead is a red light at one of these bridges that cross over. I'm waiting to turn left at the next light, the next bridge. So up ahead, the light is red. I'm I'm pretty far back. The light turns green.
Wendy:There's a car in my lane, a truck, a pickup, it's like a small Toyota. See his brake lights on, and I'm getting closer and closer, and I I'm going at a pretty decent clip, and the guy didn't move. And so all of a sudden, I'm and Mustangs are not known for especially the vintage ones are are not known for their great brakes and their great steering. They're not known for either of those things Or they're great suspension. None of that is good.
Wendy:I slam on the brakes. Next thing I know, I am in the proper lane on the bridge at that at that light where the truck was looking at the red light. I don't know how I got from almost hitting that truck to that lane. I'm I'm missing time. I don't know what happened.
Wendy:All of a sudden, I'm because it was not gonna be good.
Sarah:Right. So what do you think happened?
Wendy:It had to be some kind of divine intervention. That's the only thing I could think of because nothing else makes sense. I have no recollection. There were no tire marks from me breaking. I didn't hit anybody.
Wendy:I didn't hit the bridge. I don't know how the hell that happened. All I know is that my heart was in my throat, and I got two hands on the steering wheel, and I'm looking at the red light. And I'm like, how did I get here?
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:It's crazy.
Sarah:Yeah. Well, it's pretty interesting. I mean Yeah. How how did you get there?
Wendy:I don't know. It was like a time warp. I hit a I don't know.
Sarah:Are are there time warps? Yeah. I'm I thought there's so much we don't understand. Yeah. There's so much we don't understand.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:But, I mean, I guess that that was not my day. Right. To for a fatality or a really bad accident or whatever.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You had to live to make this podcast.
Wendy:Yes. I did. Yeah. Yeah. It's trippy.
Wendy:Right? But but it makes me wonder if we were more spiritually advanced, would things be random at all? Would would we be able to tap into the magic Yeah. Like, all the time?
Sarah:I believe so. I do think so. I I do. I mean, I could be wrong, but it feels it feels that way. You know?
Sarah:Yeah. Because even as we're sitting here doing this podcast, I feel very connected to the magic. Like, I can feel the magic listening to us. Like, I could I feel like those weird balloons that went off before in our like, I feel like the that was a pretty weird thing that happened.
Wendy:Yeah. So so balloons, you held up two fingers Yes. Because you're before we started recording,
Sarah:you
Wendy:held up two fingers because my eye I was having I'm having vision issues. Yeah. And you said, how many fingers am I holding up? Yeah. And then you held two fingers up, and then all these balloons, these, animated balloons
Sarah:Went up.
Wendy:Just because of that motion.
Sarah:And it's never happened before.
Wendy:Yeah. And you kept doing it. You kept repeating it, and it was freaking hilarious.
Sarah:It's hilarious.
Wendy:And and and So that was magic, a little taste of magic.
Sarah:I think so. You know, you how do you interpret that? Okay. A glitch in the thing. It never happened before.
Sarah:It'll never happen again. But that's pretty weird.
Wendy:It's like we could have recorded it. That would have been hilarious and a good example of what you're talking about.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, even even how I fell to shamanism. You know? I mean, I've been searching for for what nourished me my whole life.
Sarah:And and then when that fell to me and it and it was pretty complicated and involved, like, okay, I have to sign up for a master's degree in art therapy, and I have to take this intro course. And then I have to but before that, I have to do a whole fine arts degree because I want to do art therapy. Like, it involved a lot of stuff.
Wendy:But you didn't know that as you were getting involved in all these things, were just following
Sarah:I thought I was gonna be an art therapist,
Wendy:and
Sarah:I was following that. Then and then I read a paragraph in a book, and my brain blows up. Right. Exactly. Holy fuck.
Sarah:What's that? And I and I, like, jump at off the cliff, and I've never looked back. And it was like, this is what I came here to do. Like, I know that. I feel that.
Sarah:Like, this weird little strange brain I have that experiences the world in the way that I experience it is perfectly designed for for this. Yeah. You know? And I don't know. Is that
Wendy:It doesn't seem random to me.
Sarah:Oh.
Wendy:You can certainly look through that lens and justify it as well, of course, it's random. It's just a a a coincidence.
Sarah:Yeah. You took a course. So what? Why is that so special?
Wendy:Yeah. But the thing that's not coincidental is is the strong reaction.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's
Wendy:it's it's we don't get those strong reactions with everything. Yeah. And the feeling that comes up, the hair raising, the
Sarah:Yeah. It's like my feeling was the same as your feeling when you looked at John.
Wendy:Yeah. It yeah. And I've had another it's Yeah. Something important is happening. It's that's the feeling.
Wendy:Something important. And the same thing happened when I got connected with shamanism. I was reading Hank's book, and I was doing something very uncharacteristic. I was writing Hank an email. I looked up his website and found a contact page and was just telling him how much in this email, how much I really enjoyed the book and some cool synchronicities that I noticed.
Wendy:And as I'm writing this email, lovely John, who's in the back of the house, comes into the front of the house where I am and says, oh, hey. You need to take the week of your birthday off from work because I am going to treat you to a week of training with Hank Wesselman. And so I'm like, Hank, guess what? I'm gonna and then I get to the training, and Hank stands up, takes his glasses off, like, within ten minutes, takes his glasses off to approach the altar in the middle of the room. It's nighttime.
Wendy:There's, like, 30 people in the room. He's got his aloha shirt on, takes his glasses off, and then I'm like, shit. That's the guy in my dream. Oh, I had this dream. Yeah.
Wendy:I had this dream where I was in a workshop setting, and there were two people, a man and a woman. And the man was Hank. I just didn't know what he looked like.
Sarah:Right.
Wendy:And the woman looked like Nan Moss Yeah. First because I had met her Yeah. Like, so my dream mind, but it was probably into Hank's wife, Jill.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:But, yeah, this dream is crazy. Right? Hank comes up to me in the dream, and he does this Vulcan pinch on my traps.
Sarah:Uh-huh.
Wendy:The next thing I know is that he is vomiting, vomiting into my mouth, and I just know in the dream that I need to swallow it all. I just need to swallow it all. Woah. And I and I knew what he was vomiting was this gray substance with dead bugs in it, like I was a baby bird. And then my whole raven thing kicked in with, yeah.
Wendy:It became it became a thing. And yeah. So it's Yeah. Very, very potent. It was one of those, what I would call a big dream.
Wendy:It really stayed with me. It was like, what the hell was that? And I didn't understand it at the time, but then as my training went on and the the raven stuff kicked in Yeah. And and then just how Hague helped me make sense of all my visionary experiences Mhmm. That I'd had prior to and helped me, yeah, helped me have a a really interesting frame for this world, our reality, our experience.
Wendy:Yeah. Yeah. It was very powerful. That was another one of those, this is important.
Sarah:This is important. And and those things are very they're very energizing. They're very they're very fun. They're like
Wendy:And they're addicting.
Sarah:They're yeah.
Wendy:You want more and more of I do. I want more and more of those. Yeah.
Sarah:That's why I say I don't really care anymore what's going on there. You know? I I wanna be connected to the magic. I wanna be I wanna be feeling those feelings. I want I wanna have those dreams.
Sarah:I you know?
Wendy:So how do we do that and be here at the same time living in this world that is chaotic and challenging right now? What do you think?
Sarah:I think you have to keep the the chatter down. You know? You have to be very selective about what you're connecting with in in the chaos.
Wendy:You know? And You're talking about not engaging with
Sarah:bad things are happening all the time. You're gonna die of hunter virus. You know, it's all another another, like
Wendy:Crisis of the day.
Sarah:Yeah. Crisis of the day. It's theater. It's like, yeah, avoid the theater as much as possible, I think, is Right. That's my feeling about it.
Sarah:And you can, you know, you can know what's going on in the world, but but just don't be, like, just plugged into the theater the whole time. Like, plug into the magic, the trees, the No.
Wendy:It's not very helpful to be plugged into all of this stuff because it just creates more noise, I think, internally.
Sarah:Noise, and you feel like shit. So what's the point? Yeah. Yeah. Armageddon's coming.
Sarah:It's coming. It's not like I can change that, or maybe I can, but I haven't thought of that yet. I
Wendy:think I think we're all kind of collectively dreaming this together. And it's a reflection of our internal worlds is my thought. Right? But if I choose to the day.
Sarah:If I choose to think differently
Wendy:Yeah. You can change the course of the dream. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, who knows what kind of ripple effect that could have?
Wendy:Exactly. If somebody else thinks that's a good idea, then maybe Yeah. More will join in.
Sarah:I don't choose to be in the world of magic, I am changing something Mhmm. In that. You know? And I am happier for it. Yeah.
Sarah:Speaking.
Wendy:I like what you said about I think you were kind of insinuating that sort of discipline piece to the internal part, like, your internal world. Not just what you're choosing to focus on externally, but what you're choosing to focus internally. Is that kind of what you're talking about a little while ago?
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:Because that's where you'll I guess well, that's where you can hear the intuitions. They're not gonna be outside of you except in these these moments where these big synchronistic things happen to sort of shake you.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a there's a I don't know where this came from, some Buddhist exercise or maybe not, maybe something totally different. I don't know. It goes back a long ways.
Sarah:But when you go for a walk, don't use language when referring to what you're experiencing. Oh, don't narrate it? Don't narrate it, but feel it instead. I find that a really good way to connect with with the magic.
Wendy:Like That's a great that's a great suggestion.
Sarah:Isn't it? Oh, wonderful. And people who are depressed or struggling with certain kinds of anxiety and and that sort of thing, it's really helpful because you're just going like a whoop into, like, a whole different place in yourself. And if you're if you're not like, oh, yeah. There's traffic.
Sarah:Oh, look at that person. That person looks dangerous. Oh, the trees are dying. Oh, you're not, like, allowing the narrative, but but even more so, you're not even allowing that that's a tree, you know, like a tree. You're just, like, having
Wendy:sort of distances yourself from it.
Sarah:Is that
Wendy:what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense.
Sarah:Yeah. And and I find that allows the intuition and the magic to be more open to receiving what's what's coming through.
Wendy:I wonder if we're getting extremely noisy. I wonder if the volume of the internal noise is so loud to make it so obnoxious that we can't help but want to quiet it. Maybe.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Because that's what's happening to me. It's
Wendy:like Yeah. It's annoying as fuck. Yeah. Exactly. Oh my gosh.
Sarah:That's a that's a really good point. Kind of an optimistic perspective, and and I like that. You know? And and I think that's, you know, the philosophers and psychologists and who have who have had the debate about whether it's just random.
Wendy:Mhmm.
Sarah:The answer is always in our in our own voice, in our own perspective. Like, the thing happens, but how do you view it? You know? How do you how do you accept that that thing? And I find that really helpful.
Sarah:If you don't necessarily accept it the way the news and everybody is telling you to accept it. You find your own way to accept it or your own and do you
Wendy:know There's choice there. There's a choice where you point your focus Yeah. Well, your relationship to the thing. Yeah. Get to decide.
Sarah:Yeah. And some really bad random shit happens. You know? People's children die. Stuff happens that's so horrific.
Sarah:And what are the what are the narratives that you find or the or the the sensations that you find to deal with those things? Yeah. It's really tricky.
Wendy:Yeah. No. Tricky is a word I end up using a lot.
Sarah:Yeah. Me too.
Wendy:About a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I buy into the idea that some things are faded, but whether or not we follow through, our human selves follow through with it or or take ourselves up on the invitation is is a choice of sorts. Yeah.
Wendy:Although, maybe it doesn't always feel like a choice, the big ones. But then that's different than classic determinism where Yeah. Where people feel like everything is predetermined. Yeah. That that the school of thought where everything is predetermined and there's, like, causal predetermination, which is like the universe is just governed by cause and effect, and it's rooted in classic physics, the Newtonian physics.
Wendy:So that that's like there's no randomness at all. Or there's the biological genetic determinism that you're just a victim of your biology and your genetics
Sarah:Right.
Wendy:So you can't help it. Right. So there's there's no, I guess, responsibility in that world. And yeah. Is there any growth?
Wendy:Or there's the psychological unconscious part of us that is dictating. And I do think that that is a part of that that there is some truth to that our our unconscious is a lot of times steering us in certain directions Mhmm. Like our belief systems, our wounds
Sarah:Oh, for
Wendy:sure. That that can be kind of deterministic.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:But I guess what we're talking about today is more spiritual determinism. But it's maybe it's not maybe determinism isn't isn't the right word, but orchestration. I keep coming back to that word, spiritual orchestration. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:And I I yeah. I I mean, it would be interesting to do a survey to see how many people feel like they've had those kinds of really magical moments that changed the course of their lives in some way, whether it's meeting someone or being turned on to a new way of thinking or a new way of being in the world.
Sarah:So why don't you and I conduct our own little surveys? You can ask your people, your clients, your whoever, and I will do it too, and we can report back on it.
Wendy:Sounds good.
Sarah:I had experiences when I was doing the three year program with the Foundation for Shamanic Studies, experiences within those exercises, journeys that that we were doing where something so big happened that there was no longer any doubt in my mind about the spiritual realms. You know?
Wendy:Right. Exactly.
Sarah:Like, it it would be impossible for me to deny what just happened in in the realm of magic and spirituality, etcetera.
Wendy:So your ego had to take a back seat?
Sarah:Yeah. My ego was like,
Wendy:what? Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:Are you
Wendy:kidding me? Not possible. Not possible. I don't understand this. Yeah.
Wendy:Exactly. Yeah. No. I love that shit. That when that happens, and that's what keeps someone on a path like this, right, is you have an experience like that, and it's like, alright.
Wendy:I'm out. I can't I there's there's no way I could have made that up or have known that or or if there's
Sarah:what was going on in this room? You know? One of the experiences I had was we were going to be meeting the spirits, and everything was made. The room was completely pitch black. It was covered in black, like, pitch pitch pitch black.
Sarah:The candle was blown out. And Nan and David, who are our teachers of the three year program, they started drumming really, really, really fast, like crazy ludicrous speed fast. Okay. So you're sitting in pitch darkness, like nothing, no light, and you're inviting the spirits to show you. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be like I I don't this doesn't happen well for me.
Sarah:Like, I don't ever get these things happening. You know? And the room was filled with motion, just like lights shooting across and and things shooting and, like, touching my hair and not like it was, like, physically interacting with my body. I was, like, ducking from these fast, fast moving beams of light. It was so incredible.
Wendy:And it That sounds cool as hell. Wow.
Sarah:That was the that was truly the coolest experience I've ever had in terms of the supernatural. You know?
Wendy:Yeah. That's a good one.
Sarah:And it went on and on. And just, like, I I was and I had to start relaxing with it and just allowing it and and not not being, like, thrown off by it. You know? And it was it was it was so great. And then we did it another time about six weeks later, and I was so excited.
Sarah:Like, all this stuff was gonna happen again, and nothing happened.
Wendy:For anybody or just you?
Sarah:For me.
Wendy:I don't really know
Sarah:what happened to other people.
Wendy:Yeah. Sometimes that beginner's mind Yeah. You don't have any expectations. So it's like you're wide open and all kinds of cool stuff can happen. Yeah.
Wendy:But the moment you have an expectation, oh, this is gonna be cool. Yeah. I know it's gonna happen. Yeah. Well You get nothing.
Sarah:You get nothing. And I think it was a great thing because it really showed me that, you know, the nature of the gift is the nature of the gift.
Wendy:And Yeah.
Sarah:You can't demand it a second time.
Wendy:And we we we can get in our own way.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot of lessons in in that.
Wendy:Oh, man.
Sarah:Anyway, that was that was one of the most
Wendy:That's yeah. I'm glad you shared that. That's a really cool experience. Yeah. I've never had anything like that happen.
Sarah:Yeah. It was too much. But well, not to be forgotten, you know, like some of your dreams. Those things are not to be forgotten.
Wendy:They're very They're so personal and so intimate that maybe someone listening to it might be like, yeah. Right. Whatever. Or you're you're embellishing or you're exaggerating. Yeah.
Wendy:But, I mean, it's so intimate. No one can take those experiences away from you. You were there. You knew it. Yeah.
Wendy:And you're changed as a result of it.
Sarah:Like as a result. I can still remember the feeling of my hair flipping up. You know? I like, it it's like it happened yesterday, and this is thirty years ago.
Wendy:Oh, yeah. Leaves a mark.
Sarah:Leaves a mark. Anyway, I don't know if we've answered the questions
Wendy:about Well, no. I don't know if we're supposed to answer the question. I was just kinda curious where your head was at with all of this with that kind of question.
Sarah:Well, I liked the question because it really made me sit in it. You know? Like, what do I think? Like, you know, there's so many things to evaluate in in terms of what do I think. And it was it was great just like sitting in the bathtub last night, and and I started getting deeper and deeper into the thoughts of what I do think.
Sarah:And I thought, oh, yeah. I do have opinions on this because I wasn't sure if I did.
Wendy:This is the shit I love talking about. Right? I Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't know, but it does leave me wondering how much I'm missing out on because I'm getting in my own way.
Sarah:Well, yeah, all of us. Right?
Wendy:Yeah. Yeah. But I'm speaking for myself. And that makes that's kind of encouraging and a little bit of a challenge to myself. Like, alright.
Sarah:How can I how can I step aside? So try the mantra to help you step aside. I invite the universe to surprise me in joyful ways. Just just, like, periodically allow that and see what happens.
Wendy:I will report back if I remember because my postmenopausal brain is really not great at remembering things. So now we have two things Yeah. To remember.
Sarah:Yeah. Got it? And I'll do it too with some level of recommitment to it and just sort of see
Wendy:Where it goes.
Sarah:Okay. Put back on that too.
Wendy:Alright. We
Sarah:have two pieces of homework now. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. The first time I came up with the mantra, it was I invite the universe to surprise me.
Sarah:And then I thought Yeah.
Wendy:You gotta be careful with that one. Not dangerous. I I like that you added the word joy.
Sarah:Joy joyful ways. Not not
Wendy:so Actually, now you're reminding me of a slight synchronicity. Like, this morning, I woke up from a dream where, a hummingbird landed on my nose. Oh. It was, like, right Great. Yeah.
Wendy:It was still for a moment, and it would just landed on my nose, and it looked so huge because it was so close to my eyeballs. Oh,
Sarah:yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:And and I thought, joy. Right? The first
Sarah:That's what they bring.
Wendy:When I I woke up from that, I was like, alright. I got visited up close and personal by joy.
Sarah:Yeah. And I remember in the in the animal, what's it called, the book of Speaks? Animal Speaks.
Wendy:Yeah. Or Animal Speaks. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah. Animal Speaks. The hummingbird, if it comes into your life, it's to enjoy the sweetness of life. I remember that.
Wendy:Well, that's not a bad message.
Sarah:No. Enjoy anyone. Yeah. The sweetness of life, and I invite the universe to surprise me in joyful ways. I mean, can't can't be bad.
Wendy:Right? That seems like a pretty good
Sarah:Pretty good do it.
Wendy:Good thing to keep like, I should keep that on repeat in my brain parts. Yeah.
Sarah:Let's both do it. Let's and then we can tell each other what happened in in our lives.
Wendy:Okay. Alright. Well, thanks for going down this road with me
Sarah:Thank you.
Wendy:Today.
Sarah:Thank you for thinking this one up. I I did enjoy it. All right, honey.
Wendy:All right. I will see you next time.
Sarah:Yep. Bye.
Wendy:Bye.