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Welcome to Let’s Build with Armada, the podcast where Washington homeowners learn how to remodel with clarity, strategy, and confidence—on a schedule that follows real projects, not a rigid calendar.
I’m Charlie Carter from Armada Design & Build. After years of working across the greater Seattle area, I’ve learned that successful remodeling isn’t about luck. It’s about planning, transparent conversations, and understanding how every decision—from windows to insurance to material selections—affects long-term value.
In each episode, I sit down with experts to answer the questions homeowners genuinely care about:
- Why your PNW windows cry every winter
- Financing options that actually make sense in 2026
- How to not get burned by a cheap insurance quote
- What adds value in Seattle… and what just burns cash
- How to plan a DADU without turning your backyard into a 2-year construction zone
Whether you’re preparing for a kitchen or bathroom remodel, planning a full-home upgrade, or exploring a backyard DADU for equity or rental income, this podcast gives you the clarity you need to move forward confidently.
Listen here, watch more real projects on our YouTube channel, and visit us when you’re ready to build with confidence.
And don’t forget to follow the show—so you never miss an episode that could save you time, money, and stress.
Visit the Armada Design Center in Bellevue when you’re ready to start planning your own home transformation!
📍 15600 NE 8th St. Suite O2, Bellevue, WA 98008
📞 425-587-8286
🌐 https://armadabuild.com/?utm_source=transistor
Hey, welcome back to Let's Build with Armada. I'm Charlie with Armada Design and Build based in Belleview, Washington. And we are doing another podcast today and I've got Blake Rainey with me here from Belmont Cabinets. We'll talk about that in a little bit, but first I just want to talk about how much the kitchen is really the heart of the home and the cabinets are the foundation of any great kitchen as everyone pretty much can attest. So today we've got Blake from Belmont and we're going to talk about everything that you need to know about kitchen cabinets. But it's not just the kitchen anymore, right? We'll talk about that. It's bathrooms, of course. There's home offices, libraries, laundry rooms, mud rooms. So, the cabinets are everywhere in every home, even closet systems. So, we'll get into that. We're going to cut through the marketing and focus on what actually matters when you're investing. And these are an investment. These are not giveaway type items. And what's important when you're picking cabinets or the things that you should think about. There are many of them and we're going to really dive into it. So, I'm really excited about this one. Cabinets is one of my favorite things as Blakewell knows. So, thank you for being here, Blake. I appreciate it. Oh, by the way, before we dive in, hit like, subscribe, comment down below, let us know what we're doing. If you have a topic that you'd like us to talk about, oh, hey, let us know on that. We'll do that maybe next time. So, let's get into it. So, Blake Rainey, Belmont Cabinets. Belmont is been in business for 35 years. They build and distribute frameless, which we'll talk a little bit about that, European style cabinets and distribute to the western United States, Alaska, Hawaii. Um, how far east do you go? Sort of generally. Yeah, if you could draw kind of an imaginary line up from the state of Texas, so there's not really a line, but it's, you know, mid America. We used to distribute to the east coast, but we just couldn't service it well enough because we didn't have teams of people over there. Built here, we go mid America. All right. Sumar, Washington, which is a south suburb of Seattle, right near Mount Reneer. Many of you know where that is. They have 335,000 square feet of manufacturing. They employ 380 people, which is a lot for a privately held business. Right. That's right. And Mr. Steve Bell started this company in his garage, the American dream story. Um, and he's handed off leadership to his two sons, Casey and Tyler. How long ago has that been? Uh, that's been I mean, that's been a while. That's been probably 12 to 15 years. Okay, so that's been a minute. All right, so they're not brand new running the show. And then Belmont is the largest Okay, listen to this. Belmont is the largest family-owned frameless cabinet manufacturer in the US. Really kind of one of a kind. Blake has been with Belmont on two different occasions uh in the early 2000s from O2 to08 and then they lured him back in 2022 and he's still there. Uh Blake's married, got three kids, and likes to do the outdoor thing. And I know he loves to cook, so that's convenient that he's really into cabinets. So, all right, let's dive in. Blake. Um, I guess one of the first questions that I would want to talk about is or just ask you kind of just off the top kind of quick fire is what separates a good cabinet from a great cabinet or you know kind of obviously you can say there's 10 tiers or five tiers or three tiers, you know, good, better, best, but what would be the hallmarks of cabinet construction that you would sort of talk about? probably only two or three things that will delineate a what we'd call a kind of a mediocre or a lower price point product in a higherend manufactured cabinet. Now, let's keep in mind that there's kind of the outlier of really high-end craftsman who can build cabinets into your kitchen space. You know, they show up raw materials, very furniture finished, beautiful stuff. That's that's true custom. But anytime you're manufacturing a cabinet to in a facility, you're looking at not only just the materials that you're using to build it, but is it constructed in a way that's durable while it ships and is being installed. So there's there's a lifespan of your cabinet before it's your kitchen cabinet. So we look at that, right? We want to see a cabinet that's built rigid and sturdy. So it's it installs well and it it you know moves through a factory well. But then the other thing that you as the homeowner or as the end user going to think about that's going to separate a good cabinet line from a great cabinet line is the finish and the fixtures in the cabinet. So the finish and the fixtures meaning are the hinges and the drawer boxes and drawer guides going to last the lifetime of your cabinet and is the finish on the face the door and drawers going to withstand the wear and tear that you're going to use. And because there's there's painted product out there and people say, "Hey, it's beautiful. It's white paint." Yeah, but if you wipe it with a damp cloth, part of the paint will come off. So, it's like you kind of really want to look at what you're having assembled in the factory, right? Is it going to last in your kitchen? Okay. So, let's extend that just a little bit. And this is one um when I'm working with clients, which I do on almost a daily basis, one of the classic questions, right? the the age-old question is plywood or particle board or MDF or furniture board I think is now kind of the sort of politically correct term to replace particle board is it not right it is so that's always one of them and then I'll like my answer which ties a little bit into your answer about kind of how they're separated is when people are talking about that difference and is it worth it because plywood is typically more than the non- plywood variant whatever that be called particle board, furniture board, whatever. And I tell people is that look, these cabinets are going to be moved two or three times. They're going to be made, they're going to be shipped, they're going to be installed, screwed to the floor in the wall, and then never touched again. Right? So, if I was making a box and I was putting things heavy in it, and I was taking it in and out of my truck every single day, then plywood would unquestionably be what I would use. But because this isn't how those are being used, maybe particle board, MDF, furniture board is a reasonable solution for a long-term practicality to save maybe as much as 20%. So talk about that a little bit if you would please. Yeah. Yeah, that it is one of my favorite questions because we get that a lot. You're right. Especially the people working through the sales cycle with the homeowner or the builder, they want to say, I want plywood or I want I want solid wood. We hear that term sometimes, too. And it's and we I think in the in the industry, we have permission, Charlie, you and I to say we're the experts. So, let us unpack that what you're asking for because not first of all, I want to say not all plywood is the same. Like you you've got a lot of plywood out there that people like, well, this cabinet's made of plywood, so it must be better. That's not true. Uh Belmont uses a really high-end plywood product that we offer, which is why it's 19% of an upcharge to pay for the plywood upgrade than the your standard particle. So, but but let's talk first about particle board because it like you said it is thermal infused industrial-grade furniture board. What thermal infused industrial grade furniture board means is when they when we're engineering that in woodworking in general is us as people trying to manipulate wood, right? So, when we're taking all that wood material, pressing it, thermal infusing that melamine coat on the top, we're actually not just making something that is worth putting into your cabinetry, but it's more sustainable. It's more rigid. It's also more predictable dimensionally. And I'll talk about how plywood is not in a second. But that means we can get it really true to size. We can engineer it and manufacture with it really, you know, consistently. And I'll just say this about particle board. The owners of our company recently redid kitchens all particle board in their homes. We believe that it is the superior product. It's not inferior to what we're offering in plywood. We only offer plywood because there's a demand for it. Right. Meaning, if we had our if we had our, you know, preference, we would just say we're going to build all of your product out of that. Like you said, if you're going to carry the cabinets up three flights of stairs, plywood is going to be a better option cuz it's lighter weight. But to talk about plywood for just a quick second, one is plywood in general of any quality or grade is still sheets of real wood. It's a peeled piece of a tree. So wood, yeah, it's veneers of wood pied together. So it wants to be a tree again. meaning it will drink and absorb liquid through those pores of, you know, its whole lifespan. So, people will ask, "Well, don't you want plywood because of any sort of moisture or water damage sort of uh situations?" First, if you have a pipe burst in your kitchen and you're not home, you've got bigger problems in your cabinet case construction. I mean, everything's going to get damaged from water, right? But plywood, we do when we ship product to Hawaii, we uh we usually offer or encourage people to use particle or sorry, plywood, pardon me, not because of where it's going to end up in Hawaii, but it when it's being shipped in that container, it's a non-controlled environment. So, yes, plywood will withstand kind of the that environment a little better. It won't sort of uh sponge up or kind of manip, you know, it won't change its shape as much as particle board could. So, that is that is true. Two things about plywood to be aware of. one, although you're you're getting a nice product with it with Belmont, even the highest end plywood, if you have a shelf in your wall cabinet that's over 21 in, that shelf will eventually sag. So, part of the normal using, you know, user experience with your cabinets is plywood shelf you're going to have to unload every once in a while, flip over so it kind of settles back into its shape. That doesn't happen with particle board. Particle board won't do the sag. It won't sag. Okay. Another thing is people will ask about, well, I want it to I want it to be plywood cuz I want it to be stronger. And that's another thing we hear, the the test on the like the load that plywood and particle board can both take, whether it's the sheer strength of a screw that goes into the back to hold it into a into the stud and in the wall or it's just the adjacent panels and pieces and those cable ends. All of that is tested far beyond what you could put in a cabinet. I mean, we're talking like three 330 pound test versus 350 pound test, but nobody's putting 330 pounds of something in their cabinet. So, oh, you'd be surprised the kitchens I've seen. I guess that's true. It could happen, but I'm kind I'm kind of dragging that one on. So, sorry if I'm if I'm going on and on, but that Well, that's okay. Let's just let's just back up just one second. Right. So, now I remember I worked with a cabinet company. I won't say the name years ago. It was Canadian. Not that that really matters. Um, and their whole shtick was that they used seven layer marine grade plywood. Yeah. Okay. And it's like so the number of layers of veneer on plywood cuz some is like five, right? Or seven or nine even. I think there's nine layer plywood out there. And so that I'm sure that has some impact on it. And and the plywood is those veneers and the grains are offset 90° right on each layer as they're stacked up. That's right. Pressed and glued together. Yeah. Everything. And then the the particle board or the furniture board that is fine pieces of wood different than like an OSB because OSB is that strandy stuff, right? So these are more particulate. Yeah. And then it's essentially glued together. What's the resin? Is that like an epoxy based resin? Uh it's Well, it varies, but no, it's not it's typically not going to be a two-part epoxy. It's going to it's going to be more of a bonding agent. So um I actually I don't know if I'm totally equipped to know that. Yeah, but I will say that when you when you do that, like you're saying, you lay those plies up. Again, we're manipulating wood so it gets stronger. So, yeah, more plies for those of us who are kind of new to that concept. More plies would typically mean higher quality because you're you're now increasing the strength because you're doing more and more plies. Like you go to Ply, you can go to Home Depot and you can look at, you know, oh, this plywood is less expensive. Just count the plies. This one's more expensive. There's going to be more layers, right? And one of the things I kind of alluded to a minute ago is what also happens when you do that is there's now some room for error. So in plywood you dimensionally when we're kind of stacking those plies together, our supplier is you might have a sheet of plywood that could be off by a millimeter which is like about a 32nd of an inch. But if you have two gable ends on a cabinet now you have close to a 16th of an inch. Well if you take four of those cabinets and make an island in your kitchen now you could be off by a quart of an inch. So if you bought a back panel and that back panel now is missing a quart of an inch that you thought was going to be there, you're sort of on the job site scratching your head. And there's some tolerance for that in the plywood world, right? And that's that's very true that we order these cabinets. Oh, we need a run of, you know, 10 ft and we got a bunch of cabinets there that it is a known fact that we refer to it as the cabinets grow. That we're supposed to have 120 inches of cabinets and Blake's not wrong. and we get them all screwed together and there's no gaps and it's 120 and 316 or some amount bigger than what it's supposed to be according to the book. It's like why do they grow? All right, so that's on on the plywood. I guess one last thing on that. So why is the plywood then more than like in the cabinet when you buy and you make that 19% up charge? So what why is that more? Is the plywood just more expensive? Yeah. Oh yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. The simplest answer is at at Belmont anyhow, we're not upcharging plywood for any other reason that it costs us more. It cost us more cost. That's right. It's just straight material cost into you, correct, as a company, and so you have a higher cost for that. Okay. And that's generally true, Charlie, of why you're going to get a cheaper plywood somewhere else is they're just using less expensive plywood, too. It's not like they've built in the cost into other things. So yeah, that's that's the simplest answer, but it but it is it's it's a matter of where we get it from, what our suppliers are doing to make it. And all right, so the hardware, like now, you mentioned that hardware before. So really the hardware is the hinges. Yeah. And the drawer guides, right? I mean, that's really kind of what it comes down to is the hinges and drawer guides. Now that I'm aware of, no cabinet company makes their hardware. They buy that from hardware companies. And there's lots of people out there from high-end expensive names you would know to names you don't. Yeah. Right. So, how does that fit? Is it sort of the same answer like depending on the quality of the plywood you buy, depending on the quality of the hardware you buy? Yeah, it yes, it does matter for sure and it will and kind of the education point here for the listener and the viewer is that you're not going to notice the subtle difference in quality in a showroom typically, right? You will notice it in a month, 6 months, a year that the less expensive, lower quality product is going to wear and tear faster. So, how would someone going to look at cabinets be like they could ask the cabinet place like what kind of hardware do you use and they say brand X? Yeah. Like how am I going to know that's a level four hardware, that's a level seven hardware. How where where is that information available? Who gets to decide that? Yeah. Well, for the easiest answer is your design expert at the Armada Design Studio is going to know you. You know, you want to trust the design expert. That's why they're here. That's why I mean just like in any professional it's why you pay a realer to buy a house with you because they're the pro. You pay a kitchen and bath designer to walk through that with you because they're the pro and they know. You can you know also the worldwide web is helpful. You know you can search that stuff and see which one gets kind of better ratings but sometimes reviews and ratings are really hard to understand. You know it's not just a matter of oh Bloom gets a four star and Sichi gets 3.9. It's more of a what where where where am I seeing this product in kitchen and bath designs and do I like the way it looks and feels? Now, do you guys do use different manufacturers for because I know you have different types like you can pick this drawer. I refer to it as the good guy drawer and you know the pretty good drawer. So, are there different manufacturers that you're using for different uh say different types of drawer guides or hinges or things? Yeah. Yeah, we use So, we basically when it comes down to it, we use Celichi and Bloom. Those are the two products we use in the in the Belmont cabinet systems. We also use Celichi which has a really high-end door hinge and Bloom has a more recognizable name. They do a good job of advertising and marketing their product in the States. Celichi is a we're the largest importer of the Cichi door hinge and the drawer guides here in the US and we really really believe in that product. The door hinge actually has a little bit more adjustability and some patents that the Bloomhing doesn't. But both products are really good. I mean shameless tariff issue for you guys. It's it's imported. Well, it hasn't been because it's an Italian product and it's getting a little bit of a tariff, but it's going to, you know, the stuff that we use comes from parts of the world that have a high-end kind of engineering and design quality, but also they're manufacturers that have practices in place to care for their employees and they have, you know, environmental stewardship that really matters. So, that's why it costs more to make things in that part of the world. You're making it the right way. That's right. Okay. Artho, just just kind of the I think obligatory question. Are there any American manufacturers for that kind of stuff or at the level that that Belmont requires? Not that I know of. No. Okay. No. Both Celichi and Bloom come from or imported products and they're they're really really good quality. You're going to see Bloom places and you're you know if people are promoting Bloom in their cabinets, you can pretty much trust that it's a good product. There's also a DTC product that comes in a lot of lower-end kind of face frame what I would call builder grade cabinet lines. And this stuff will operate smoothly when you're checking it out in a showroom. Two things you can do in a showroom, too. Look for drawers and door drawers particularly that have stuff in them. I think that's kind of a something we don't think about when we're shopping cabinets. It's like, "Oh, this drawer is smooth." Look for a showroom like Armada that has stuff in the drawer cuz you're going to have stuff in your drawer. We got some drawers out. We got some drawers out here that have 70 lbs of tile in them. I promise you. So, come on down and check it out and see how that thing operates. That's right. Now, what about um Acuride? is that a that's another name I know. I don't know much about them, you know, in terms of like who's where, but that's one that I hear or have heard over the years. Yeah. Acuide. And then there I mean there's also hardware companies like Hayla and there's other ones that make what um like inserts into cabinets. So like pull out utensil holders or you know in the blind corner or in the square corner cabinet, you know those little lazy susans. So we do use a broad variety of sort of inc cabinet accessory suppliers. Um, and we've, yeah, we've used some stuff from Acuride and they make a good product as well. Yeah. The the in cabinet stuff that he's talking about, the the pull out trash bins, the drawer organizers, uh, particularly things like when you're going around a corner in a lazy Susan or the blind corner cabinet. That's a complicated one. Come in, I can show you one. Um, uh, pantry cabinets. There's some complicated pantry cabinet stuff, but those are the type of things that take the cabinet functionality to the next level in my opinion. Super important is that that not only once I get the layout and I like the way it looks, now what's in the cabinets and how cool and effective and userfriendly are those things. So, that's a big important part that we'll probably get there.
what is sort of a typical Belmont and then industry as far as you know like what's a what's the warranty or the guarantee or something like that on cabinets typically and then paired with that is like what should someone expect for the life of a cabinet? How long is this are these things going to last? Yeah. Well, it's first these are it's fine home furnishings. We like to use that phrase, right? We're building home furniture. Think about your cabinetry as furniture because yes, it will withstand the normal wear and tear of use, but also you have to take good care of it. Just like anything that you're going to purchase, you have to keep it clean. You have to maintain it. If things look like they need adjustments, then adjust them, you know, so they operate properly. But you could expect, you know, when you have when you have a professional installer or a carpenter or contractor finish your kitchen, everything should be ready to use when you move into your home. And you can expect a Belmont product and we we we have four different product lines from a you know they're all designed at different price points but a lot of those are different price points because of the offerings and the finishes but the hardware is pretty consistent as far as the quality and the longevity of that throughout all of Belmont's product lines. And I know there's a lot of other local manufacturers that would say the same thing like you should expect our product to last you the duration of your kitchen which could be 12 to 18 years you know that's what we would say like a kitchen that's how long it kind of lasts. Now certainly some of the we've seen Belmont product last even longer than that. Um you know that people who are comfortable with their home live a pretty simple and quiet life and their kitchen doesn't get a lot of wear and tear. It'll last you know 20 25. I would guarantee you there are cabinets that Belmont sold 35 years ago right when you started that or people are cooking in them tonight. Yeah, you're probably right. Now if if Steve's watching, he would probably say, you know, don't tell those people he made him because he had a lot to learn the beginning of his of his manufacturing time in the garage. But he was out there. I would imagine he was proud of his work. We're continue to be proud of our work, but we would also um point out that there is a limited lifetime warranty on some of this stuff. Belmont has a certain culture and um and a lot of our competitors do as well where we would say we want to make sure your kitchen is to your heart's content. So, we will follow up on any sort of warranty or any sort of issue that you're having. But some of those things we look at and say, "Yeah, the door hinge failed." Like it it's a hardware product and it's been there for 12 or 15 years and it's not going to last forever. Um, but we will help kind of get things in and and figure out how to make sure your kitchen lasts a long time. Okay. Um, what would you say is maybe the one cabinet feature that's worth the upgrade? Oh, that's a really good question. Um, your drawer box and your drawer guides. Yeah. At the end of the day, you there's a, you know, there's affordable options for the the two things that are going to impact the cost of your kitchen the most are the number of drawers in your kitchen and the door style, right? So, you can value engineer things by adding or eliminating drawers, and finding a door style that fits your budget. Those are I mean, there's lots that goes into building a cabinet, designing the kitchen, installing it, but those are the two that are going to impact it the most. So, if you want to pick if you want to say where can I upgrade, get the get the high-end drawer guide. You'll be glad you did. spend the money on the drawer and the drawer guide, drawer hardware essentially. Yeah. Um there is is one of the places that is going to have that long-term impact, use life of the thing, etc. Yeah. Over plywood or particle board. That's right. 100%. Okay. Um and then what would you actually Sorry to interrupt. I would if you if I made a list of things I would suggest you'd upgrade on, plywood probably wouldn't even make the list. That's just where I stand on that. any other things if you would. All right. Well, there you go. You heard it from the boss. Um, what is the this is one of the, you know, kind of silly thing, but what is the single biggest or the most common mistake people make in kitchen design or planning? You know, there's fashion and function, right? You want your kitchen to be a signature of your style. You know, if you're a lot of people don't go through this sales cycle, but maybe once or twice in their life, right? the end user, they're not buying a kitchen the same way they do a car or shoes or even homes. We move in and out of homes more frequently than we do buy our own kitchen, right? So, so think about that. You want the style and the design to represent you and and and what you're going to do in the kitchen, but also the function of the kitchen. So, I think what I I don't know if I'd necessarily call it a mistake, but I think I find that people get to the end of the design process and then start wondering, okay, where am I going to put my stuff and how am I going to operate in this kitchen? They're more thinking about numbers and dimensions and you know what appliance fits and what's not. Think about your kitchen and what you like to do in the kitchen. So make your favorite meal. You make lasagna. Do you make your own noodles? Oh, so you roll it out. Where are you going to roll out the noodles for your lasagna? Where you going to put the pin, the rolling pin? Does it fit in that drawer? No, you need a bigger drawer there. So think about the actual function of your kitchen, not just the style as you're going through that design process. I completely agree with that. And um I talk about our people with our people here all the time and we talk about kitchens and the details as project consultants when we're working with people that I even back it up one step further that when I start talking about a kitchen design and layout I am totally on board with form follows function, right? which means form is the part of of how it looks and the style of it and form follows function meaning that it's got to work right first. It needs to be efficient for you both in how you work and how you store things right. That's really kind of the function of the kitchen where I'm working with stuff and then where I put it when I'm not working with it. Yeah. So form follows function. So I'm always talking about how it lays out and how I'm going to work in it and use it as the number one thing. But backing up from that, before I can start really thinking about laying out a kitchen with people is that I want to talk about appliances. Yeah. Right. Because if I'm trying to design a kitchen and we haven't had the discussion of what am I designing around or what am I incorporating into the design, right? And the very first one that I always start with is the cooking because it's got the most variables. Right. Right. Is it one or two ovens? Okay. You answer that question. And if you say two, all right. Well, there's three or four ways you can achieve two ovens. Yeah. Right. You can go with some big double range unit. You can go with a single range and a wall oven. You can go double wall oven with a cooktop. Right. And then you say cooktop. How big a cooktop? 36, 42, 48, mile and a half, you know. So you and then and then the second thing once you settle that is the second thing I want to talk about is refrigeration because it has the second most in my opinion second most variables. Yeah, right. Big giant combo unit. Now everybody's doing the separate fridge freezer. We doing an underounter thing, you know, where are we putting that? And then the ne everybody's got a microwave, right? Okay. So, we need a microwave. Everybody's got a dishwasher. Some with two. Yeah, sometimes we do two dishwashers. And then are there any specialty appliances? Are you doing a built-in coffee maker or steam oven or warming drawer or I don't know, you know, uh the ice machine? Ice machine. That's one. uh trash compactor don't do those much anymore. They used to be big. Um or the built-in mixer thing, like you said, if you're a big uh you use a mixer a lot, they make cabinet that you can mount that thing to, swing it up, you don't have to lug it in and out of somewhere. Yeah. Um so, I always want to talk about the appliances early on to know whom I'm going to incorporate, right? And one of the things that I talk about there is that with my clients is that if you're on the fence between say a 48 inch refrigerator and a 42in refrigerator or you know like I I don't know if I want to do a 48 in uh range or a 36-in range is I always say in the beginning plan for and design around the larger of the two things you're thinking about. Sure. Because if then you decide to go with the smaller one, no big deal, right? You just get six more inches of countertop, you get six more inches of adjacent cabinetry, everything's great. But if you go the other way, I've found often that if I if you're vacasillating between 36 and 42, and then I design around at 36 and then you say, "No, we want to go with the 42-in fridge." Then you think I stole your first kid because you lost countertop, you lost cabinetry, or whatever the case may be. So, I always if we're not sure, we'll plan for the bigger one and see where we land kind of thing. So, I start with the appliances first. And I don't need to know what brand or you know who just how big like what what's the count and how big are the things we're trying to incorporate and what's important to you. And what's important to you? Yeah. And then how do you use it, right? And I think drawers are the king. Um, you know, it used to be years ago when I was a kid, it would like you might have one drawer, the double doors with two fixed shelves or, you know, one adjustable shelf kind of thing. Yeah. Then the evolution was adding rollout shelves to the door cabinets. Yeah. Right. Right. And then people figured out pretty quickly that rollout shelves are annoying behind two doors. Yeah. Right. And then that's when like just tons of drawers came into play. And the only downside I would say to that is that there is the benefit of a rollout shelf that you can adjust where the upper rollout shelf goes. The bottom one's always at the bottom of the cabinet. You're not moving the Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then you could like raise or lower a little bit the one in the middle. But once you pick drawer sizes, you're that's big. You're not adjusting those. So is that sound right from a sort of evolution of the functionality component? Yeah, that's absolutely right. And there's Yeah. And there's more. I mean, there's more out there. There's there there's kind of endless options of what you can put in that cabinet there. We offer what what we call a PCAR system. PC A. And it's just an adjustable adjustable roll out system for uh tall pantry cabinets. And that's when we find those roll out trays to be most, you know, useful or attractive to the user because those tall pantry cabinets, you're not going to put actual drawers at that height, you know, your shoulder level. But you open a door and now you've got these nice pins that you can move any old time, you know, depending on the height of your cereal box. And now you have a drawer where you can roll out and see what's back there. You know, that can be forgotten. That's that's totally key. uh agree is that most rollout pantries that I've seen in the world come like with four rollouts as a standard. Yeah. And I always recommend adding a fifth. Yeah. Because four to me is a little bit of remnant of when there were just shelves because when you have a shelf that you can't roll out, you need more air between them so that you can see further into the back of the cabinet. That's right. But when I have a roll out shelf, I can compact those and use up more of the air because I roll that tray or drawer out to me and now I can see everything on it. Yeah. So, I don't need that air in between. Right. So, I always recommend adding the fifth unless they know they're putting lots of giant things that need a lot of space in between. Yeah. I think the fifth extra tray or rollout shelf is a is really important and get a lot of benefit. Totally agree. Okay. What would you say is a storage solution that you wish more people knew about? We offer um a product called the servo drive system. It's an electrical powered like uh recycle center or trash can. So, you can kind of nudge it with your knee. It pulls out. But I think a lot of people will see that. They'll see it in showrooms. They'll kind of know about it. It's a product they're looking for. One I I think that well I guess there's two that come to mind is one there's a lot of things you can do in the corner of a kitchen. Y and I've and I've kind of gone back and forth over the years in in our business of like oh is you know do you want a what we call a square corner you know so the bfolding doors open up so you can see everything and I'm like actually you a blind corner you know they call it where you know you kind of forget about that you know bunt baking pan that you have that's back there for 100 years but if you if you kind of use the space wisely or if you know the things that you only need at Christmas and Thanksgiving and that's where they are then a blind corner cabinet does allow you a lot of space so thinking of storage solutions that I think more people would consider cost of and to think about would be incinet like hardware apply you know these mechanisms that allow you to maximize the space of a blind corner cabinet. So these like pull out things that kind of move together because if you get the right product that you know a more and it'll cost you a little bit more but you pay for it it's going to last a long time and it's going to make the user ability user ability is that a word the usability thank you of that cabinet space a lot more accessible and a lot more efficient. More efficient more functional right I've always said that turning a corner in a kitchen is a very hard thing to do efficiently. Yeah. you know, when you go around the corner, it gets tough to be efficient with the space. Um, so that's that's one thing. My favorite thing that I think people overlook a lot is a tray divider. Yeah, I think that's super important. And when I say tray divider, what I mean is vertical storage. They can be wood partitions or metal bar kind of things that stand up so that you can put baking sheets and cutting boards and, you know, thin things stacked in there vertically. my favorite place to put them because typically you want them in a 24-in deep or a full depth cabinet. Base cabinets are standard 24, which we call a base. Those are the ones that sit on the floor with a countertop. Wall cabinets. Wall cabinets obviously they typically are 12, some are going to 15 more commonly now a little bit. And then a tall cabinet, kind of the three varieties, base, tall, and wall. Tall cabinets are generally referred to they're the full height like pantry or oven cabinet. And normally in my mind, if I just say a tall, I'm imagining one that's 24 in deep. Correct. And if I was going to think about a shallow tall, cuz I could make it any depth I wanted. But if you and I were talking and I said tall and I didn't put a modifier on it, I would assume you're thinking 24 in deep as I would be. But if it was not 24, I would put a modifier on it. And I would say a shallow tall and I think like less than so in the upper section of a tall cabinet that's 24 in deep. Mainly the two places are above a double oven or microwave oven kind of thing and above the refrigerator, right? Is where I like to put tray dividers all the way across. And that's where I can put all my baking sheets, cookie sheets, pans, things like that. I think that's one of the things people miss out on the most. Yeah. because laying those in a drawer is just is just horrible. So unusable to me, right? The other thing too that came to mind on that question is we we offer particularly a cap uh system called the Rego door system. So it's like a biffold like large panel door pocket system. So the doors swide open, slide into a pocket. Is that like what I might refer to old school flipper door? Well, it would be. So, we offer what what our catalog we call an espresso cabinet that has those flipper doors that kind of pock in. This is like a think of it thinking of tall cabinets. This is why I came to mind when you said that is like now you can open up a space into what would be maybe a washer and dryer or a wet bar or a desk or an entertainment center. But when you close it, you're matching the same finish of your cabinetry. Okay? And so I want to point that out because it's something that sometimes people overlook because typically in that design space, washer and dryer that has to fit into, you know, maybe in a more urban environment where there's limited square footage or space, they have a washer and dryer near or in their kitchen area and then you frame that in. So you have to frame it in and then sheetrocket paint it and put a door on it. Whereas you could put this rego system around it and you get more of a again furniture finished look to match your kitchen or it's if it's off the kitchen for an entertainment center, you can close it so it looks pristine, clean, hide it. But it's it's a it's a system that that comes at a cost. Everything valuable comes at a cost, but it certainly is something to consider when you have a space that you want to finish that way.
Quickly, what would you say is the sort of number one cabinet trend places that it's going that you're excited about seeing in, you know, right now and coming up? Stuff that you may know that you guys got cooking up in the lab that's not even out there for for public consumption yet? Like what what would you say is out there? Lighting. Lighting. Yeah. and our our inc cabinet lighting um offerings that have that are new to our catalog are pretty simple but there to us because there's a whole world to lighting that is really exciting in in the cabinet world. Now lighting is a part of any design build. So you're going to put lighting in a home. Um, but the inc cabinet and under cabinet lighting for cabinetry is now really affordable and accessible. And we're offering panels and pieces that you can like hide these LED strips in. And uh you can put lighting underneath your toe kick in the in the bathroom with the motion sensors, which is just brilliant because then you don't have to turn the bright light on when you get up in the middle of the night. Uh, but it also can accent and really change the the the tone of your kitchen because all this lighting comes with different brightness and different warmth settings. So, lighting is the is the quickest. So, lighting in the C like when I and I see this in certain places and I haven't really done it because it's been complicated to do to this point. It's a retrofit thing for the most part. But in certain applications I've seen where you open a drawer and a light comes on in the drawer. Yeah. Like up at the top of the drawer. And you guys are incorporating that now. So it's coming from you with the lighting and we don't have to put it in at the job site. Correct. Now to your point of what's coming soon that kind of so in in cabinet drawer lighting not yet from Belmont but coming soon. But that's kind of the industry that's in the industry. It's definitely happening and we're we're just making sure we engineer it correctly before we offer it. But it's definitely happening in uh c like wall cabinets or tall cabinets. You know switches where when you open it lights up the cabinet, you close it, it goes out. See everything better in there. or even ones that you can, you know, control from your phone that, you know, even if you have a glass door cabinet and there's some lighting in there, you can say, you know, you can set it up with different um uh uh, you know, programmed settings, too. And then you can even tell Google or Alexa, hey, every night at 6:00, change it to this lighting setting. So, you know, you just know it's time for a cocktail because the lights in your cab. That's right. Cooking setting, cleaning setting. That's right. Right. You know, chill drink setting. Okay. I like that. Super fun stuff. The lighting's cool. So that that I I get that one. All right. So let's dive in here really quick um to one thing. So we talked about the box construction, right? And then solid wood. People say solid wood. Nobody makes a cabinet that if I want a cherry cabinet, the sides of the cabinets are solid cherry. That's not a thing that I'm aware of. Right. Correct. It's not a thing. That would be maybe plywood with a cherry veneer. That's right. Right. Okay. Now, the front of cabinets or the drawers and the doors, that can be solid cherry, solid walnut where they take little pieces, they glue them up, they make a panel, they shape it to whatever style of the door and drawer is that you want. And so that's been that way for a long time, right? where we're doing these solid and even years ago I'm getting old is that when we were do when painted cabinets started becoming really popular in the '9s maybe is when we started seeing a lot of painted cabinets is that we were most cabinet companies would require that you paint like you have to buy a maple door and then paint it because it was the most stable substrate to be painted. Now that's evolved into HDF and sort of not solid wood, you know, a more stable product to paint. But what I see a lot now is laminate and uh veneered doors where you're not having to get a full thickness walnut door that's then shaped into something. You get a walnut veneer. Yeah. Right. Or whatever specy kind of thing. So laminates and veneers. Talk about that a little bit and sort of what's going on there. Paint is paint. We've kind of covered that. But let's talk about that laminate veneer situation. Yeah. We many years ago we had in our offerings that solid wood door, you know, and like you said, when you when you do that, it's just like making a butcher block or a table. And you still do, right? Well, no, we don't offer it anymore. We don't have any solid wood door offerings. Pardon me. Not solid wood slab doors. Slab are panel doors. Yeah. Five piece style and rail doors, shaker style. Yes, lots of solid wood doors for sure. But that solid wood panel door was so hard to kind of keep stable. You know, wood always wants to be a tree again. So, one of those pieces used to be a bent piece of wood and it's going to keep trying to bend back. So, we won't do that to you. We would rather give you the beauty of a wood veneer. And so, we offer in um most of our wood species, we offer a random plank veneer. So, the way those flitches of that actual peeled wood, so it's a 16th of an inch thick laid up onto a particle board substrate. It's going to still have that kind of flipped look. So it looks like or similar to a laidup solid block panel door, right? But then you get in now Belmont offers because we are, you know, we may manufacture and sell exclusively a European style cabinet, frameless cabinet. Most everything in the whole process is a panel. The box is built of panels. The door and drawer fronts are panels. So we really think that we excel in that flat panel look and we have a lot of offerings in that look. So, we have like 60 different laminates you can choose from. Okay. And some of these higherend laminets are coming, you know, from our, you know, Italian and German suppliers that it is the it is the only thing they do and they do it really, really well. So, we have ones that mimic the look of wood. We have a couple that mimic the look of walnut and beach that are almost identical to a natural finished wood. Very hard to tell the difference. And then we have other ones that are made from a recycled wood product that have kind of a wood little texture to it, but they come in more fun colors and grain patterns. So, you've got a lot of different things you can do style-wise. But, I think it's important for the shopper today, the person looking for a kitchen that laminate isn't what it was 15, 20 years ago. It it was it's true. 20 years ago, your laminate product was your inferior, you know, lower price point, not good quality stuff. Mostly used for countertops. mostly used for countertops and like you know doctor's offices dentist because they just wanted you know it was easy to replace it was easy to clean and it was inexpensive. Now you've got these laminates that you know that with the edge banding systems that we use to finish the door. They're pretty much impervious to heat and moisture you know at least the heat and moisture that you have in a home. So they're going to last a long long time. They don't change in color or tone. Any real wood natural product will change color and tone over some others. some more than others, but you know, you've got you. So, it's predictable look. It's really easy to keep clean, and you can go into a showroom and say, "I like this. This is exactly what it's going to look like in my home." Whereas, the beauty of some of these like rift white oak like we have in this room, is you're going to find the natural variations in color tones and grain patterns. And if if you have an interest in things being more consistent, consider a laminate. Right? So, let's just be clear. So, veneer, when one says veneer, that is a peeled, thin, skinny piece of real wood, right? that's then glued up onto the substrate or the particle board. Yeah. Block or blank that you then put the the veneer on. And laminate is essentially, if I'm if I'm not mistaken, laminate is hy like it's a bunch of layers of paper that are pressed together and glued up real hard, right? And then that's what you get like tink tink tink. Like this table is made out of laminate, right? And then they put the color on the top of it, the top layer, and and it's durable, but it's not real wood kind of thing. It's not a piece of wood like a veneer. So that's the difference is a laminate is a manufactured something or another, not plastic, right? Cuz it's really paper. Um with a lot of glue and resin infused in it, right? Well, yes. And we have we have both, you know, some of those. So let's call it cuz it's true. There's these terms are we want to make sure we're using the right terms. Words are important. Like a So you could say to someone, I laminated things up. And that's just the term just means you're laying things together. That's the verb of laminating, right? And then there's the noun. This is a piece of laminate. That's right. And so some of the laminates that we offered or that we offer, engineered materials, some of them are a plastic material. It's it's kind of rolled out in huge sheets. It's made as one. So there now is laminate that's crossed over into not being the old school kind of the paper pressed variant, right? And like some of those ones that I say that are made from a wood material, those are recycled wood products. So there that's that gets you some stewardship points, too. Environmental stewardship points because it's made of a really sustainable material. And then that stuff, they're going to take the wood material, color it, smash it together, make sure it looks like it, these grain patterns, and then they're going to cut that and roll it out into sheets, and then lay it up on the substrate, too. So, there's lots of different ways that they make these different laminates that we offer. But all of them are engineered materials to be a sustainable, rigid, durable, but they're all trying to mimic a different look or finish.
Let's talk about the the classic work triangle. Okay. Okay. Like the everyone's heard like the work triangle. I I honestly am not a huge believer in the work triangle personally in terms of how to lay out a kitchen because the three points of the triangle are the cooking, the refrigeration, and the sink. Yeah. Right. And I think that that leaves out to me one of the most important parts is where am I standing when I'm prepping? when I'm not at I think it flows and then how many cooks are in the kitchens that talk about that a little bit in terms of the functionality should people worry about the triangle or you know give me just a little bit on that. Yeah. And a lot of that, a lot, thank you. That's a good question. And a lot of this is just going to be um maybe not opinion, but just sort of experience, you know, like from my experience, I think that parts of that triangle concept are more important than others. I think when you're at the when you're at the sink, that's when you're going to be loading the dishwasher. So, your dishwasher should be close to your sink. Your installer or your contractor is also going to say, "Well, yeah, I got to get water to the dishwasher, too, so it's going to be near the sink." So, like, okay, that one seems pretty clear and obvious. I think one of the things just to dive in on that for to interrupt is that I always ask when I'm talking about locating the dishwasher if there's an option. Sometimes you don't have an option like it's got to go here, but if there's an option, I would ask who the person that does the loading and unloading of the dishwasher, mainly the loading, are you right-handed or left-handed? And there's that to consider as well, right? Because if I'm left-handed and the dishwasher is on my right hand side, I'm typically reaching across my body with my left hand to put the thing in the dishwasher. So for that person, if there's an option, it might be a lot better and efficient to put that dishwasher on the lefth hand side. Yeah, I agree. I always ask that question. And you want to be near in that same scenario, you want to be near the your recycle cabinet or we or trash cabinet. We use the word recycle center, but your trash cabinet, you know, needs to be nearby as well. But I'm with you. Refrigeration, it doesn't need to be in the triangle. I mean, first of all, some homes that have a lot of young people coming and going, running through the kitchen, grabbing a Capri Sun, getting the milk to make cereal, they want that kind of outside of the space of where they're cooking and prepping on the edge. They don't have to come all the way in. That's right. So, it doesn't necessarily need to be near your cooking or prep surface cuz you you you want to get access to your refrigerator. It's kind of a low frequency spot. You go there kind of one time, at least a lot of people, get all the stuff out. Yeah. Right. And then I'm going to work with it over here and I don't have to go back there 12 times. I'm going to the cook top a lot. I'm going to the sink a lot. I'm going to my ovens less frequently because you typically put something in it's in for an hour or 20 and then you might check it a couple times. But cook top prep and sink for me are really the top three, you know, and then dishwasher. And when I hear people talk about designing space where they're going to prep and cook food, it sometimes they're thinking of the equipment that you're cooking with. And I would suggest that tools and towels are more important. So, you know, if your pot is actually on the other side of your kitchen, it's actually not a problem because you're only using you're only moving the pot once. You know, get it over to the sink. Now, it's there. But if you're cooking or in the middle of prepping food and you need access to your tools and your towels and you don't have a drawer near your cooktop, you you messed up this. Okay. So, let me I'll a little insight here. So, my cooktop, we have a long straight kind of run with a big island. And the top drawer to the left of my cooktop Yeah. is all utensils. Oh, yeah. spoons and tongs and all that stuff. The top drawer to the right, towels. Tools and towels, man. And then the drawer, the second drawer down below the utensils is all spices. Yeah, there you go. It's all spices right there. All right. So, like that. And I totally with you that those are those those are super high frequency. Okay, let's talk about this really really quick and then this will be the last thing we'll wrap it up. Sounds good. So, we kind of touched on this earlier. um is you mentioned the super high-end uber custom made in a small shop type of thing, right? And I always have thought about this or tried to explain it to people is that cabinets are on a continuum, right? And at one far end of that continuum is what I refer to as a straight stock cabinet. You can walk into a big box store right now and get a cabinet off the shelf. Yeah. Right. And that would be the most basic sort of stock cabinet on the planet. And then at the far far other end is the super high-end custom, very custom, made typically in a very small place, probably like what Steve started with back in the day in our little shop. Very, very high-end custom. And then on the spectrum in between is where most cabinet manufacturers find themselves. And it's like then semicustom as you move into this and as you get closer to the custom end like Belmont the 1900 line is getting pretty close because that they'll do just about anything that you ask if they feel like they can warrant it. I mean that's the only time you guys have ever said no. It's like no we're not going to make an 8ft tall door because it's going to work and bend right like yeah no but if I come up with some crazy stuff which I have they're like yeah okay we'll make that right. So that's kind of that spectrum, right? So the the long run there and then the one thing and you touched on this as well and I just want you to sort of add on or anything with that is that people feel like, oh, I need custom cabinets. I need this small custom cabinet shop. Yeah. And the thing I worry about there for people is because a lot of people can build set up a shop. I could do it in my garage. I'm pretty handy. I could make a really really nice box. Yeah. Okay. I can buy doors if I want to, but I could even make doors. Yeah. But what I cannot do is I can't finish it. Yeah, I was gonna say I can't put the finish on it. Like I mean, you're like the Belmont paint and finish facility is I'm sure millions of dollars investment. Yeah. Right. And so small custom shop guy doesn't have that. He's like with a spray gun and like you know some tarps hanging around. Yeah. So, kind of give me a little on that that whole spectrum bit and and what you think there. There are a couple advantages and this has been a great conversation. Again, thanks for having me and I'm I hope a lot of it's been just cabinetry and kitchen and design perspective, but I will I will I will boast a little bit about Belmont on this question because one of the two of the main advantages you get from a manufactured cabinet system and like you said, it is highly customizable, but it does have its limitations. like you said, we some of the cabinets we can't build for people are just because we can't literally get that down the line in our factory. You know, it's too big or we we don't want people to lift that cabinet you're trying to make. You know, you have to do it in two pieces. So, there there are some limitations there, but one, we're we're producing cabinets in a system that's highly predictable as well. One, our our lead times and our ship dates we can hit and whereas in a custom shop, if something goes wrong, it's going to really change the timeline for building your cabinetry. And then the second one is like you said, I think it's the more important is the finish systems that we offer. We have three flatline finish machines that run our top coat and a couple of our different paint finishes. They they create a type of finish that you can't get unless you have a multi-million dollar flat panel flat finish line system because the way the product is laid down onto the panels and then it's dried and cured through a contained environment, it comes out really, really durable and really, really beautiful. And also Belmont has access to more and more materials because we're making more and more cabinets. We're going to build about 550 cabinets today in um in the 1600 1900 line. And because we're moving that much product, we can offer any color from Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, and Ferro and Ball. And if you have a custom shop that's going to take a while for them to die cast and find the right product and test it and going, we can move that into our production system really quickly because of the capacity that we have. I mean, this is I've been to the factory. It's pretty amazing facility down there. I actually kind of think it's cool that we have such a company local and you know like yeah they're ours. They're local you know kind of thing. It's just 400 employees familyowned. I just good people overall and really want to do a good job. So that kind of makes me a little proud. Um, but it's almost like an automotive and I've never like I don't know anything about what the paint booth at, you know, Mercedes factory is, but I', you know, it's the same kind of thing, right, that you guys have. I've seen it. It's a giant deal. It looks very expensive and the beautiful things. Now, that would be negated a little bit by what we were talking about in terms of the laminates and some of that stuff because they don't have to go through that finish process. Correct. Right. So then, so then if I'm doing super high-end custom guy, but it's a laminate deal, then the sort of finish argument is really not a thing so much anymore. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, anything else that you think that we should talk about really quick that you want to say to the people that I hope are finding this informative and learning a little bit about cabinets? Like one last thing, sort of your parting shot on cabinets. Yeah, we uh we we take a lot of pride in our work, but you know, when you buy a Belmont product, you do contribute to a community of people with that. We think we're making the world a little bit better of a place because of how we treat our employees and the people we work with. So, we're thankful for the business, thankful for Armada to promote the product. And I would just say that it's when it comes to shopping for your kitchen, it's definitely a buy once mentality. That's my encouragement. I mean, you need a pair of running shoes and you're like, I'm going to burn through running shoes like and it's not a big deal to you. Get something on sale, find the cheapest product, what you know, I mean, that's something you can shop for. But when it comes to buying a kitchen for yourself, buy once, buy the right drawer, pay for the right product, get the right insert, pay for the right design, come here to meet with a design expert, and take the time to get it done well because you'll be thankful you did and think it through. And think that's what how am I going to function in this kitchen? Where am I putting this stuff? How do I really want to work? Like, you know, and I tell people like, let's think this, think about this. This is your thing. Let's dial it in for you. Yeah. You know, and make it the way you want. So, thank you, Blake. I really appreciate it. Maybe we'll do a part two. Let's do it. You know, whatever. So, hey, just um cabinets are a big deal. They're a great investment or a big investment, but they have such an impact on your daily life. If you cook, I mean, we cook, so if you're if you don't cook and you go out, okay, maybe not so much. But somebody else might buy that house one day and a well-laidout kitchen is a big investment in that regard, even if you're not using it. So, they should be beautiful. They should be functional, and they should be built to last for decades. If you're planning a kitchen remodel, come visit us in the showroom here. We've got Belmont cabinets. We have Belmont cabinet, like whole kitchens that you can see, tons of door styles. Come into the showroom. We'll show you the differences. We'll show you other lines, too. We're not, we have other things and like compare and contrast and find what's right for you. They're all good lines. Um, but find the one that's right for you, what fits your lifestyle, what fits your budget. Thank you for watching today. Hopefully, it was informative and that you got something out of this. Don't forget to like, subscribe, comment down below, and let us know other topics. We talked about that. Let's build with Armada the podcast. We're here. We're back. And we'll see you in the next one. Thank you. Thank you.