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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;06
Aaron
The age of creative AI is here, guys. It seems like a big week for that.
00;00;20;08 - 00;00;41;20
Pri
It really does. I feel like the Studio Ghibli take really, really took the internet, Instagram, all social media by storm over the past week. I mean, it's funny because it's kind of over it, like started two days ago, and I feel like it was really what, big on Wednesday. And now it's kind of dead. But it really was like, I mean, we talked about this with the JD Vance.
00;00;41;20 - 00;01;16;21
Pri
I mean, but it does feel like the Studio Ghibli thing was like this decentralized, nomadic AI behavior that even transcended the daily, this mirror of people using the tools in a creative way and a decentralized interesting way to. I enjoyed it, actually. I mean, I know, yes, I like that style a little bit, you know, whatever. It's cooked and it's exhausting not to look at it, but like it was interesting to see just everyone embrace it, even like the people who typically didn't engage with it creative eye at all were were loving it.
00;01;16;23 - 00;01;27;14
Aaron
Yeah. Thought it was interesting. Like how fast it ripped through. And then I also I just found myself really exhausted by it super fast too. It was like a weird feeling for me.
00;01;27;16 - 00;01;53;08
Derek
Yeah. I mean, like, I think so much of net society's thesis for us is around events like this where it's like I, you know, I think that all of us co-hosts here are like very plugged into the internet on an hour by hour, day by day basis. And there have been real shifts in culture and like how and how technology has informed some of, like, these cultural shifts that feel like they've been accelerating.
00;01;53;08 - 00;02;26;14
Derek
And I think, you know, remember when we were the four of us were kind of kicking the tires on like, well, what, what what is this podcast about? I think it was in large part around like, you know, some of trying to make sense. Heads of tails of, of like stuff that happens on the internet like this. And yeah, I would say like it also kind of like brings to mind a bunch of the themes around, like AI generated slop and like this flattening of culture that I think we continue to talk about, where it's just like there's this reversion to sameness and homogeneity now that we have like everyone has access to the same
00;02;26;14 - 00;02;44;17
Derek
tools, the same distributors of clothes, the same software, the same. That can be exhausting. And but also like, you know, it can be fun, although it's kind of like fleeting. And so as the whole thing was going down, it was just like, wow, this is such a great, I don't know, analogy for just like things that are happening around us.
00;02;44;17 - 00;02;46;18
Derek
I don't know if you guys want to unpack that anymore.
00;02;46;21 - 00;03;07;05
Aaron
Yeah. It's like where we are. It reminded me of when like, stability came out, right? Like it was a little like echo of when people first started playing around with some of the image generation tools that they just. I mean, the the output is just astounding. It's super cool to do it, but at the same time it like made it made all that work, like less special in some weird way.
00;03;07;05 - 00;03;14;20
Aaron
For me. Like all the, the great earlier anime work that that kind of inspired, it.
00;03;14;22 - 00;03;42;25
Chris
Had like, so much going on here, right? Like one the give me a vacation of AI slobs has been happening for a while, and so it's interesting to see that it took a couple things to get it into this, like mass critical point of morality. First, I think the new AI tool is exceptionally strong at transformations. Like you give it a picture of something, it can style, transfer and, you know, completely replace that picture in a whole new setting in context.
00;03;42;25 - 00;04;03;14
Chris
And so there's this, this technical switch that had flipped and in a way that was easier than in other tools, because you can do that elsewhere. But to be able to do it in a conversational chat, I think really lowers the bar for, you know, your casual person amusing themselves to death on the internet. And so, like, that was one part of it.
00;04;03;14 - 00;04;29;01
Chris
But then, you know, ChatGPT distribution is and, you know, orders of magnitude larger than million, observed Midjourney. Stability. You know, any of those tools where people have been listening the net for a while now. And when you mash those two together on a day where, you know, I guess we were all just in the mood to, get 2D animated.
00;04;29;07 - 00;04;31;00
Chris
You you had the magic.
00;04;31;03 - 00;04;51;01
Pri
I agree. I mean, you know, it's a little you know, it's a little. It's funny. I was just thinking about it. The output is so high quality. Like, I actually think some of these outputs are there. I think part of the reason of the reality happened is like the outputs were so strong and like even to your point on the Midjourney, you know, that happened, but it was kind of more for the like the niche tech audience.
00;04;51;01 - 00;05;28;20
Pri
Like the output here actually was accepted by the mass, which in order to like be accepted by mass, the output has to be of sufficient quality. I think it actually was really, really good, but it's a little disappointing. Is hearing like, okay, the output becomes such high quality, it becomes so ubiquitous that it becomes stale so quickly. And it is interesting just to have a little bit of like that dichotomy of like, yeah, it's good, and it's so good that it's it's boring and the esthetic is cooked, but we've exhausted it within a day because if it wasn't very good, it probably wouldn't be this beautiful moment moment online where everyone's just like trying something
00;05;28;20 - 00;06;02;29
Pri
together. Like what I thought was it kind of interesting? And I'm like less cynical about it, just like it's like this decentralized prompting or it's like all prompt together and with a different output. Like something about that, to me is like kind of special. I wouldn't be surprised if moments like that exist again, whether it be imagery, even like text based stuff, like everyone shares an image or a text of some other specific output based on their context, I could see like more movement where we have decentralized creativity emerge to these machines, and people are like sharing the outputs together through their social media distribution channels.
00;06;02;29 - 00;06;13;02
Pri
Like, I just think that piece is really cool. I don't really care about the output of it, but I think this like idea of binding people together through a prompt is like, interesting.
00;06;13;05 - 00;06;21;12
Chris
That is that is something like everyone decided, hey, we're going to Larp today, and this is, this is what we're going to do, you know. Yeah.
00;06;21;14 - 00;06;25;13
Aaron
I think that I thought that was a great point. Play. Do you think though that there will be.
00;06;25;16 - 00;06;26;03
Chris
Going forward.
00;06;26;03 - 00;06;31;12
Aaron
More or less of that style? I feel like it could be less or I could see it being more.
00;06;31;15 - 00;06;43;26
Pri
Like the anime style. I don't know, I mean, who knows? Like maybe someone has a better prompt for it and then everyone's like, well, that's actually really good. And then, you know, it takes the internet by storm. Really. Again, I don't know if like, this one day has killed the esthetic.
00;06;43;29 - 00;07;02;07
Derek
Well, can I, can I unpack that last part that they are touching on. And I don't have an answer to that. It's more just like very I'm just curious, but like, I think a couple other things that are that, that I've noticed are just like how these as time has gone on, let's just call it like over the last five years as these pockets of virality open up.
00;07;02;14 - 00;07;27;00
Derek
I mean, I remember earlier in the week it was like the Saratoga water and the banana peel. These things feel like they are speedrunning virality and and decay faster than we've ever seen. And I just I think that's interesting. And I'm kind of like keeping an eye on like what that actually means. The second is, you know, and I don't know if this is true or false.
00;07;27;00 - 00;07;49;23
Derek
I'm still trying to like it's been 48 hours, so I don't really know how I feel about it yet. But like, is there a can one make the argument that like there is both positives around? Kind of like the awareness that the world now has around Studio Ghibli, while also simultaneously kind of like tempering some of like the emotional depth that those that art style had for for many for, for a long time.
00;07;49;25 - 00;08;30;16
Derek
And if the, if the I mean, if the answer is like it's both of those things, then what does that mean over time? For just like the way people resonate to ideas through visual assets, is that is that actually undergoing this massive change in front of us as a result of synthetic intelligence that just changes the behavior that we have with like with like emotional storytelling through visuals as time goes on around like these, like core identities that have whether it's anime or it's WWF or it's, you know, sports or just movies and entertainment and I don't know, I think I'm just like, I'm trying to understand what these trends that are very clearly
00;08;30;18 - 00;08;46;24
Derek
that they're showing their hands. Right? Like they're showing the cards. And, and I don't think we're able to kind of like, figure out where we're able to kind of like chart out exactly what it means. But I don't know, I just I'm, I'm left kind of baffled at some of these things. I'm curious if you guys have, you know, our wrestling with this stuff.
00;08;46;29 - 00;08;51;24
Aaron
Yeah. It's almost like the media grew and decayed like a meme coin. It's like the exactly right.
00;08;51;24 - 00;08;52;18
Derek
Like if you mean.
00;08;52;18 - 00;08;54;26
Aaron
Quantification of the of media.
00;08;54;26 - 00;08;55;08
Chris
Which.
00;08;55;08 - 00;08;56;09
Derek
You can and.
00;08;56;11 - 00;08;57;24
Aaron
You get such a good or bad thing.
00;08;57;26 - 00;09;20;16
Derek
No. Totally. And you can kind of chart this out by like Google interest, right. Like it looks like a meme coin chart, which is just like, you know, very like, aggressive, steep, kind of like, you know, Mount Everest, like climb and then a very, very steep, like falling off the cliff. Steep like climb down in, in, around ideas that would have taken years to play out in the past.
00;09;20;18 - 00;10;04;13
Chris
But they're they're not ideas, right. They're esthetics and the, the mental model I really like to apply to stuff like this is from Stuart Brand and it's it's called case Layering and Stuart Brand. Right. He was a whole art catalog back in the day. He was very kind of wired up. Literally like I think he helped, you know, Kevin Kelly, you got wired going and, you know, he's always had his hands and stuff, but he puts forth this model called case layering, talking about how different models of of systems or things move at their own speeds and that it's sort of how information gets passed down through them and they get absorbed that different,
00;10;04;17 - 00;10;40;09
Chris
different speeds serve different purposes. And so at the most outermost layer, right, you have fashion and style that moves a mile a minute. And then underneath that you have, you know, commerce. And then below that you have culture and then you have politics, and then you have, you know, like institutions, you know, like family or whatever. And then you have like the Earth, you know, ecosystems and the like, the geologic age and, you know, if you just think about that as a set of like, you know, nested circles, that that outer layer is spinning wildly fast, right?
00;10;40;09 - 00;11;05;02
Chris
Well, that core barely moves. And these things, you know, kind of from a systems perspective, serve different purposes where, you know, one is able to like kind of, you know, take on the psychosis day, hence this, this Ghibli slob fest, you know, where as you get deeper, they're more resilient and enduring and like, you know, there's needs for both of them.
00;11;05;04 - 00;11;25;08
Chris
And so, you know, just to jump back to this Ghibli, Ghibli thing, the art style isn't the best thing about Studio Ghibli, right? It's the stories. It's the sense of wonder. It's the lens of looking at the world, right? Like when I, have fond memories of Ghibli movies, it's, you know, Totoro sitting in a tree with the umbrella and the little kids.
00;11;25;08 - 00;11;43;20
Chris
Or it's the girl on the, you know, the subway over the water with no face, like, it's it's the stories themselves. I mean, the art style is great. Like, especially something like Ponyo. For someone who actually dreams of flooded oceans and massive fish everywhere, at some point it was like, oh my God, this guy's in my dreams.
00;11;43;20 - 00;12;02;04
Chris
But right. We've only taken one piece of the Ghibli magic, and, you know, the actual the heart of it that people fell in love with that was barely reflected on the timeline. And I think it's because of, like, those different layers of pace and what certain things can do.
00;12;02;06 - 00;12;25;05
Derek
Yeah, I think that's interesting. I guess what. So I appreciate that viewpoint for sure. I guess the stuff that's coming up for me is just like, there is amazing remix and and networking potential that can happen around something as core to the identity of the IP. And I take I take your point that like Studio Ghibli is more than just what you're you're looking at with your eyeballs.
00;12;25;07 - 00;13;01;27
Derek
That being said, and I'm not advocating for or against this, I'm a more these are like the questions that are coming up for me. Could one make the argument that that it's similar to how like a Pepe and like the universe of Pepe was kind of like remixed and remastered in a negative connotation, that kind of set in motion these events that had a new generation of people reflecting differently about the emotional resonance of that IP, that what we may end up seeing in certain occasions is like a very similar effect where, like some of the emotional resonance that you're describing outside of the visuals, you know, that the films themself or the feeling that
00;13;01;27 - 00;13;26;26
Derek
you get after sitting with with some of the IP for long periods of time, may also similarly decay as a result of like this networking that happens in a in a new unintended direction. Just because you know, folks are supercharging its virality with IP or, IP generation and image generation and, taking kind of adding a new wrinkle to how that universe can be understood.
00;13;26;28 - 00;13;40;27
Derek
And even as I'm talking, I'm like, I don't even know if I agree with that. It's just more like, these are the things that are coming up for me. And yeah, I don't I don't know where I sit yet. It's more just, like, okay, that's interesting. I may need to think on that a bit more.
00;13;40;29 - 00;14;00;17
Chris
Yeah. I mean, I, I've given this a lot of thought, right? Because like I do long form narrative storytelling is, you know, my creative practice and there's never been a way to fit that into crypto. You know, we've seen a lot of high profile attempts. There's still some out there. And, you know, they may eventually break through, but not within market cycles.
00;14;00;17 - 00;14;26;05
Chris
And the problem is, long form storytelling takes generations or decades to gain cultural significance. Right. It's something like a good story, you know, star Wars for me as a kid, Harry Potter for a lot of other people. You carry that with you over the years and like the act of walking around with it and sharing it and revisiting it, like, helps ground it and cement it over time.
00;14;26;07 - 00;14;44;02
Chris
And so, you know, like you look at Harry Potter, like you have a whole generation of millennials, like completely with mixed feelings right now, you know, depending on their views around, you know, Rowling's, Terf, transgender nonsense. You know, where you got a lot of people being like, oh my God, I grew up and I love that thing.
00;14;44;02 - 00;15;02;15
Chris
And now, you know, its author is just so absolutely cringe. But I still love it, right? Like, you wrestle with that stuff over length of time that are far different than the speed that the internet moves at. Yeah. And how we ultimately resolve that, I don't know, like that's one of the more like fascinating things for me.
00;15;02;17 - 00;15;21;22
Aaron
I actually just tweeted this out and Jacob Horne from Zora wrote back, he made a good point, just kind of adjacent to this maybe I layered in, you know, he what he said when I asked this question like, is this like the meme quantification of culture? He's like, well, actually this is just how attention works. And like meme coins, basically like leverage that same attention.
00;15;21;22 - 00;15;39;03
Aaron
And it seems like some of this AI slop generation is doing the same thing. I do wonder if the answer to some of this is actually NFTs, right? Because they really store like memetic value in some sort of way, like American cultural value. So maybe maybe that is the solution.
00;15;39;06 - 00;15;41;17
Derek
Also, I will say like there's a whole other person.
00;15;41;18 - 00;15;46;11
Chris
Not, by the way, not to interrupt Erik. It's not. But please don't show Will.
00;15;46;17 - 00;16;12;05
Derek
So I could actually make the argument that everything that I'm just describing about this roller's the euthanasia, roller coaster cycle of of attention as it's ascribed to these ideas or objects or IP or media broadly can is also net bullish for this permanency that happens when like objects are timestamped and like especially around art and like how art evolves as a lineage.
00;16;12;05 - 00;16;38;26
Derek
I did this crummy squiggle like as soon as, the image Gen came out and I had access, I just was like, okay, let's see how powerful this thing is. And I did this thing where I like I pretended as if the chrome squiggle was alive during. So my view is like the chrome squiggle exists today in Cryptopunks and, you know, the modern art form and how people are interacting with that art and or art and algorithm algorithms and creative coding, and like, you know, pixels as a medium to make creative works.
00;16;38;29 - 00;16;58;03
Derek
All that is because of, like, the line you can draw back in time to like, you know, I started in like this little thread with, like, Impressionism and then to Post-Impressionism and then to Cubism and then to, you know, I can't remember where I went from there, surrealism, I think. And then, to, you know, minimalism and then the ABCs and blah, blah, blah.
00;16;58;03 - 00;17;14;11
Derek
So and then we get to kind of like more and more modern and contemporary forms of work, and then we get to, you know, the chrome square or the crypto punk or autographs or whatever it may be. And I look at that for, for art and like that, that euthanasia attention cycle. And I and I actually am Max.
00;17;14;11 - 00;17;41;08
Derek
Max bullish on blockchains being able to serve this really interesting role for time stamping and creating a chart, a lineage of how creative works have progressed and like creating a collectible or like a list. You know, this, this ownership profile around being able to kind of own these markers in time. From a creative perspective, I think it works very cleanly for art and and crypto art has been an a it's like, Max bullish on crypto art in the age of AI.
00;17;41;11 - 00;18;10;01
Derek
As it as these things start to kind of speed up, I think the where I go from there in terms of just like IP, you know, I could make the argument that if there was a, like a one of one that existed, a Ghibli one of one or like, you know, there was, the IP of this work or, like, these characters or whatever there was like, you know, a scarce collectible economy around these things that had been charted out, you know, over the last 20, 30 years on a immutable ledger that runs 24 seven, that will outlive all humans.
00;18;10;03 - 00;18;37;12
Derek
I would, I could, I could make a very cogent argument that after this week, I would be fucking Max long on all of that stuff. Yeah. And and so anyway, I'll pause there and just say, like, I think it's less clear to me outside of fine art or like what? Fine art is, but I but part of me is just like blockchains are the perfect technology stack for capturing, I think, Aaron, what you call it like some of the attention volatility into these objects on this, on this global database.
00;18;37;12 - 00;18;38;27
Aaron
The memetic store of value.
00;18;39;03 - 00;19;06;09
Pri
I do think like it's like just running back that conversation I think we've had in Flamingo and and previously just like remember that era of 2021, 2022 when people were buying Nyan Cat and now that person that was like crying in the meme, like you had you know that Brian whatever that guy meme like you could I mean, kind of what you're suggesting is like the ability to kind of tokenize a moment through a meme that gets sold.
00;19;06;11 - 00;19;44;05
Pri
I mean, that's sort of happened. We saw glimmers of that. And I think maybe your solution to kind of having one, one of one of a specific moment in time is kind of having some sort of like, you know, scarce object that commemorated and has it on chain so that you can kind of go back to it and be like, remember that kind of collective experience we shared because things are moving so quickly and so dramatically, and culture is shifting within days, like to the point where, like Gen Alpha sees millennials start posting a meme that is taking one of their jokes and it immediately becomes cooking that cooked and dead.
00;19;44;08 - 00;19;55;11
Pri
That lifecycle is like 1 or 2 days. And so I guess I see what you're saying with like having an NFT around that and being long that. But I kind of feel like we did that. No, I mean.
00;19;55;14 - 00;20;11;29
Derek
We did it. We did it with like an N of, I don't know, three years or two years. I guess the point I'm making is like, I'm actually not charting new ground here. This exists like the whole $2 trillion asset class that is the contemporary art market with $80 billion of turnover every year. Is this in physical form?
00;20;12;06 - 00;20;36;19
Derek
It's like, you know, the the Rothko's and the, you know, the the hearse and, you know, people, you know, charting back and collecting older works, the whole museum architecture, it's all in support of this idea, which is like these physical objects marked a very specific moment in time where art was responding to its, you know, the, the, the events that were unfolding around it and also as a response to the work that came before it.
00;20;36;19 - 00;20;59;17
Derek
It's really those two things, you know, we have like, this is a this is a behavior that has existed for thousands of years, and we now have a, a huge industry to support it in physical form. I'm, I'm actually not saying anything different. I'm just saying blockchains enable that exact same behavior to exist now with digital objects for the first time, like sovereign owned digital objects that run on top of these ledgers.
00;20;59;17 - 00;21;15;15
Derek
And I think once you kind of understand that analog, it's hard not to be bullish on this tech. I think the I guess the larger point I'm making, though, is like, I get that for crypto or I'm I'm just like so long on this stuff. On in terms of on the crypto art side of that stuff, because it's such a clean analog.
00;21;15;17 - 00;21;34;18
Derek
The question I have is more around like contemporary, like media and like the Miyazaki's and the Studio Ghibli, and I think you could probably make the argument that these things follow a very similar pattern. It's just it's just I think I'm trying to extend my understanding into that realm. A bit more as like a pure collectible for a moment in time.
00;21;34;18 - 00;21;46;04
Derek
I think meme tokens are a variation of this, but I do think that NFTs and uniqueness is a is a core part of the the thesis here. So anyway, I'll, I'll let you guys a bit.
00;21;46;09 - 00;22;08;21
Aaron
Yeah. I mean these are great, great points. Dirk I thought that that was interesting. Did you guys see just related to this that, Greg Eisenberg who's I think that an amazing job, just like trying to understand what's happening with AI, just start chirping about, how Web3 was too early that like, tokens maybe useful to make sure that people who created, you know, this work get fairly compensated?
00;22;08;21 - 00;22;13;09
Aaron
I thought that was interesting, too, just to added another twist into the conversation.
00;22;13;11 - 00;22;32;13
Pri
Yeah. Where you noted, like, you know, imagine your Studio Ghibli. Maybe, maybe there's some like, some ability for them to kind of capture the attention here, definitely raise the brand awareness of Studio Ghibli. But like, what if, you know, for every one of those, it's generated some percentage? I think his argument was like some percentage went to Studio Ghibli.
00;22;32;13 - 00;22;34;20
Pri
Like that would be massive for them.
00;22;34;22 - 00;22;59;23
Chris
That would be great. But that's not how I works. Yeah, Sam is not not opening up a community IP licensing pool. You know what? He's he's not. No, he he's all about enclosing the cognitive commons and taking decision decision making away from, you know, a collective hivemind and quarantining that into the world of the machines and the capital.
00;22;59;25 - 00;23;23;06
Chris
Just to go back to Derek's thing here, it's it's a really interesting, complicated set of questions because I agree with your your thesis here. Right. Especially around the one of one stuff like I think you can very clearly, yes, trace a line and say, you know, why is Alpha Centauri kid any different than, you know, this whole lineage of contemporary artists?
00;23;23;09 - 00;23;59;04
Chris
No objections for me. The issue then is when we get we start getting down into the world of, say, the forgotten runes wizard call, right where we start. We start getting clashes between speculative value and like networked storytelling, because one overrides the other. And I'm going to go back to the whole Stewart Brand paste layering thing. I actually just pulled the chart up and it goes fashion, commerce, infrastructure, governance, culture, nature at the very bottom.
00;23;59;07 - 00;24;25;07
Chris
And so at that very top, like outer spinning band of the circle that's moving really, really fast. You have fashion and commerce in contention with each other, and then you got to jump a couple layers down until you get to the speed at which culture moves. And, you know, like we have to start getting into like really complex, like analysis of like behaviors and prioritization and what makes people do what.
00;24;25;07 - 00;24;43;19
Chris
But, you know, the issue is like they're attracted to a fashion, but but then, you know, their decisions are going to be overridden by commerce. And so, like, you could you could be in love with the wizards. Right. And you could have discovered the wizards. Let's just say they had to have these for at some point in time.
00;24;43;19 - 00;25;05;26
Chris
And it was $4,000. And you decided to take the plunge and you spent two grand on a wizard. Well, the story of the wizards, it's taking time to develop. Right. And they're actually shipping very well. You know, they've got a game out there like of all the decentralized Disney projects. You know, they're the one of the few that have like consistently followed through and built and built upon the world.
00;25;05;29 - 00;25;38;26
Chris
Meanwhile, you know, the the collection itself is at the whims of the larger market and it has shipped the bed and so like that, that like disjunction between the two seats is created this issue. And so I don't know what the solution is, but part of it is, is uncoupling speculation from things that move at much slower paces or finding better fits, because if you want a one on one like you know something, it has a pulse on the piano collection, I don't I have no idea what it is he's trading at.
00;25;38;28 - 00;26;13;22
Chris
When I look at his work, I'm like, is he continuing to evolve as an artist? Is he continuing to make great work? Is he continuing to find acceptance, you know, as he releases things because like, you know, I don't I don't have a time horizon for, you know, what Flamingo should do with our One of wands? That's very, very different than, you know, if you hopped in on something that was flirting around with both the centralized IT building internal internet capital formation, and then, you know, we were speculating as traders upon those two things.
00;26;13;22 - 00;26;19;06
Chris
That's an entirely different set of like logic and thinking. And it just gets mucky.
00;26;19;08 - 00;26;41;10
Derek
Yeah, I think these are great examples. And like good, good stewards of like both sides of the argument here. And I think I agree with you. Like I feel very clear on certain parts or like certain creative works that you know, not to to beat a dead horse here, but like the, the networked objects, they're fine art. They're, you know, a few external dependencies.
00;26;41;10 - 00;26;58;29
Derek
There isn't like a lever for, you know, productivity to extend out of them. There's no revenues you get by holding the objects, like things that look more like art. The runes is a great example because like, you know, I, I, I get the desire to want to participate and to own these objects and to be a part of those networks.
00;26;59;01 - 00;27;26;29
Derek
There is something about their productivity that I and like this gets and to use like kind of language that I like to use their dependencies that I think knows or at least temper some of the like the kind of like the security one would have, like they would in, you know, real estate that remains unchanged or gold that remains unchanged, or Bitcoin, their remains unchanged or cryptopunks or a squiggle or glyph that remains unchanged, that allows a market to kind of like, you know, vacillate in terms of like how it it can price it.
00;27;26;29 - 00;28;05;11
Derek
And I think that confusion element that like uncertain leads to it exhibiting less of like a store of value or a wealth preserving marker, but I still think can be incredibly valuable, done correctly. And so, yeah, anyway, we're, we're I think we're off the path here, but but I, I, I guess maybe zooming out. I like that we don't really have clear answers for this, and I like that the Ghibli fication of that we saw this week is kind of like bringing thing, pulling all of these conversations up into kind of like the mainstream, such that like, you know, blockchains are being revisited for their provenance behaviors by folks like Greg Eisenberg and people
00;28;05;11 - 00;28;30;19
Derek
are talking about, you know, do we, you know, are is are are these things good or bad for, you know, studio creators who have been building and working on intellectual property for decades? Should IP even exists in the same way in the future? And art, should we be protecting it in the same way that we have historically? Knowing that these lines are now getting blurred around training data and and outputs, and the UGC benefits of these networks that are forming in real time.
00;28;30;19 - 00;28;37;15
Derek
So yeah, I yeah. Anyway, I just like I think it's cool and also a lot of the thesis around why we started this podcast. So like riff on it.
00;28;37;20 - 00;29;02;29
Aaron
Yeah. That was interesting. Even like Call Simone, like somebody wrote something talking about the the IP and sharing it. And then he wrote back and said, like I IP is a boomer concept, which I thought was a little bit sharp, but it's kind of cool. Yeah, it's like true. But at the same time, like as we go deeper into like this, it like age of AI, it just feels like IP, maybe one of the few moats like you do need some breathing room to like develop a concept.
00;29;02;29 - 00;29;26;21
Aaron
Right. So, you know, I think for, for creative media and maybe it maybe lessening. And it does raise this question like how do you monetize it? Maybe that's why, you know, Greg and all these other other folks are thinking about tokens or and I imagine soon like NFTs too, related to it. But I just thought that was also interesting that we're reevaluating again, like what IP means.
00;29;26;28 - 00;29;30;10
Pri
Like that conversation kicked up at the beginning of like the NFT, you know.
00;29;31;07 - 00;29;31;21
Pri
When all these.
00;29;31;21 - 00;29;32;23
Derek
I was just about to say that, too.
00;29;32;29 - 00;29;55;17
Pri
I feel like that that it's interesting to me that AI is kind of running that conversation back because it actually the reason I think I was like immediately like, yeah, IP is a different concept because between AI and crypto, that conversation of like where creators should be paid, how much they should be good, you know, whether or not the current IP structure is even compensating them fairly, which you kind of had in the digital art side of things.
00;29;55;17 - 00;30;04;10
Pri
And now with this, it's like, how do you even protect IP? Like there's going to be a news, there has to be a new structure in place. I don't know what that is, but it feels like.
00;30;04;13 - 00;30;05;14
Aaron
It is tokens free.
00;30;05;14 - 00;30;07;14
Pri
Yeah, I mean it's tokens maybe, but and.
00;30;07;14 - 00;30;30;25
Aaron
That's that's the through line through all this like whether it's NFTs, whether it's, you know, meme tokens like that is how you're going to monetize this, like hyper fast moving media, which gets commoditized, you know, grows really fast, decays really fast. I just think that is the solution to all this. I do feel bad for the, you know, the the studio that created this, right.
00;30;30;25 - 00;30;51;10
Aaron
Like that's why I was asking these questions a bit about like, is their esthetic now more or less valuable? Like I'd argue it probably is a little less valuable after this happened. Okay. I think that what made them special and their their differentiation just kind of eroded a little bit. No.
00;30;51;12 - 00;30;53;14
Chris
No, I'm taking the other side. Yeah.
00;30;53;14 - 00;30;54;16
Derek
This is interesting.
00;30;54;18 - 00;30;55;19
Chris
You go Derrick.
00;30;55;22 - 00;30;57;12
Derek
No no no I think this I think this is.
00;30;57;12 - 00;30;58;17
Aaron
What this is the question.
00;30;58;17 - 00;31;17;25
Derek
Part of it. Yeah. This is a question like it's so funny to me. And like as I was talking I was like, yeah, that is right. We did have we did speedrun this conversation previously. And I remember I was on this podcast three years ago with like, Carly Riley and DC investor and a couple other like some an IP attorney, someone who worked for Disney and it was about CCL.
00;31;17;26 - 00;31;38;08
Derek
It was like when like the huge CCL kerfuffle was coming up and I made this argument on this podcast, I'll link to it in the show notes if folks are interested that like if you look at someone like X copy and the right click and save as guy completely CCL people can remix and commercialize it in any direction, and the power of that object has only grown more and more as time has gone on.
00;31;38;11 - 00;32;03;00
Derek
And if if the the the business model of how the artists A creates value is evolved to support that type of networking. Because X copy can make art, PR can make new art. People can consume those new objects. As he creates them. They could be one of ones that could be networked. But this idea that there's been this creative network that has evolved on top brings value back to that type of object.
00;32;03;03 - 00;32;24;05
Derek
I think where I think I'm like, we've seen enough here where like there are viable ways to play this idea of hyper networking and scarce collectible. Now, the Studio Ghibli question is different to me because like as I mentioned, it's not fine art, but I will say like I would more, far more people know about Ghibli and that studio in that work today than they did last week.
00;32;24;07 - 00;33;01;01
Derek
And if Studio Ghibli leans into a creative medium that allows them to capture that value, create a new type of business model or the previous Studio Ghibli had already had this business model in place, which is around hyper scarcity. And and this, you know, this economy of collecting. I would argue that, like, what happened, what transpired this that transpired this past week was actually max bullish for Studio Ghibli and their their mission of creating like, these very emotional resonance storytelling and only ways that they can to kind of Chris's point earlier, I could also make the you know, the argument that, like, there's this flattening of culture that's happening that like, people are going to
00;33;01;01 - 00;33;21;21
Derek
take this IP and totally crush it, and that will outweigh any work that Studio Ghibli will be able to do in the future. I'm just I think I'm less impressed with that argument. The more I kind of talk about it and talk through it. I do believe like, and I think, you know, I'm kind of circling around back on this, that like the, the business models of the future are really pairing these two ideas together.
00;33;21;21 - 00;33;37;15
Derek
Hyper networking around an idea or a concept and the ability to have economic exposure to it through a very scarce collectible on this 24 seven global database that anyone can view in real time. But yeah, Chris, maybe jump in there and you can kind of refine some of those thoughts.
00;33;37;18 - 00;34;05;15
Chris
Right? So I view this through a lens of evergreen businesses. There are certain businesses that their model doesn't age. There's always a fresh cohort of people looking, looking to embrace it. And the I have this mindset because during the dotcom collapse, I landed at a place called Wedding channel.com that was a one stop portal for like wedding planning, buying, know Seattle, yada yada.
00;34;05;18 - 00;34;26;24
Chris
And every single year we had a fresh set of brides coming in. Those brides walked through the same exact lifecycle and like my job was to figure out that life cycle, figure out what they needed when and, you know, like tell our product people and our business people, you know, all of these touchpoints and how how brides are interacting with them in Nickelodeon.
00;34;26;29 - 00;35;00;06
Chris
Right? Nick Junior is another great example of an evergreen business. Every year there's a new batch of three year olds who need to see baby animals using teamwork to help other baby animals. It never ages and Ghibli like it's an evergreen business, right? It's about young people coming to terms with the world, you know, getting the courage to, explore, to conquer their fears, to, you know, just, like, hit these sort of timeless, universal things that people are constantly in need of, reassurance or models for.
00;35;00;09 - 00;35;19;12
Chris
And so, like we're viewing, you know, this give this occasion from like our front tier technology whipsaw market mindset when in fact like their core model and what they do is completely different. And like, yes, it will have to come to terms with it because, you know, look what happens when they don't, right? The internet takes them over.
00;35;19;12 - 00;35;43;21
Chris
But that doesn't like really impact like how they're structured and what they do and what their, their core values are. Right. Like it's sort of like this. They looked outside their window and they're like, oh my God, what is this storm going on? You know? And then it passes. Meanwhile, you know, they take years to develop these films and to ship them and that care and that love and that craft is what got them there to begin with.
00;35;43;21 - 00;35;56;18
Chris
And so, yeah, like, these things are always going to change over time. But who Ghibli is and what they're about and why they exist in the world, that's almost eternal from my point of view.
00;35;56;21 - 00;36;09;21
Aaron
I think what I took from that is like, it really going to depend on how the IP creator, what what they do with it though, right? Because you could see some folks not reacting well to this and it does kind of decay their their existing franchise. Right.
00;36;09;24 - 00;36;10;26
Chris
You mean chill guy.
00;36;10;28 - 00;36;38;14
Pri
Yeah. But they're going to their existing franchise will decay if they don't fully even come to terms with the fact that the world is changing. Things are like the way I look at it is like crypto. A lot of crypto behavior is downstream of what everyone else will adapt over time. So when you see people like speedrunning, you know, Studio Ghibli and all of that, and it feels like it's one day and cookie after day, that's very similar to the memetic behavior of meme coins.
00;36;38;14 - 00;37;00;11
Pri
Even like some of these NFT collections, like every chart is like up and then down, and then there's like a shorter and shorter time frame of meme tokens. Like, that's the way things are going to go. Like the attention spans are shorter and shorter, unless there's like some insane shift of human behavior, which could happen. Everyone decides that's not the way they want, you know, the internet to look, which I am very skeptical.
00;37;00;11 - 00;37;24;16
Pri
Will happen. You're going to have to adapt to this kind of new model, which makes you feel like you want to get enough attention on it, but then monetize it in a scarce way. To Derek's point, like, I just I think that that's that's it. It's like you want a million prints all over the world of the Mona Lisa, but you want one scarce object in the loop that everyone just piles in a room to see.
00;37;24;18 - 00;37;33;18
Pri
I just think that that's going to how it's going to be, how it is. So like, Chris, I understand your point, but that's just like, not that's just like being scared of the reality that we live in.
00;37;33;21 - 00;38;01;25
Chris
No, no, no, not at all. Going to push back on that. Right. Like you're you're saying this one thing applies to everything. And I'm saying yes, it implies in some cases, in other cases, the things operate a completely different time frame, like part of think about like the way we think about AI, where AI is running a million miles a minute and it's this whipsaw, oh my God, how can any of these things survive when ChatGPT is going to read wedding them?
00;38;01;27 - 00;38;28;06
Chris
Meanwhile, Microsoft is reactivating Three Mile Island Nuclear Power Plant, right? To like secure energy for data centers to be able to, you know, run all these server farms that operate in a completely different set of like, time frames needs planning like and so I think it's we have this bifurcation where some, some, some things are going to run away faster and faster than ever.
00;38;28;06 - 00;38;55;21
Chris
And because they, they exist at this layer where we're and using ourselves to death and we need fresh fodder every single day, we can maybe overemphasize them, but in the background, there's other stuff. Can't work at that pace. You can't you can't build data centers, you can't plan next generations of chips at internet time. You need to do that in, you know, ten, 20 year time frames like so we'll have both these things.
00;38;55;23 - 00;38;57;20
Pri
That's a good point. Fair enough.
00;38;57;22 - 00;39;09;15
Aaron
Did they open it? AI to kick this off with their announcement related to it. Is this just like oh, like a big synapse? Yeah, that we're like just unpacking, which was all kind of like a planned PR event of some sort.
00;39;09;17 - 00;39;35;09
Pri
I was actually thinking that that would be the next phase of marketing, whether or not they did it or not. But like if you're a smart company, planting these kind of like global prompt phenomena is, is actually a really clever way to get viral marketing. So if you, you know, I'm making it up, but like let's say you're PepsiCo and you have you just acquired a lollipop and, you know, you can somehow get everyone to design their face on a lollipop thing.
00;39;35;09 - 00;39;55;02
Pri
And it is compelling enough. And like everyone on the internet does it. I feel like that would be huge. Like, if you're clever enough to do that, I think it's very hard to do that. But like, to me that would be I like TikTok marketing. It's like the really clever TikTok marketers can, like, get a song or whatever through a bunch of TikToks, and it's like all kind of done via Psyop.
00;39;55;02 - 00;39;59;12
Pri
Like, I kind of think the same thing will be done with like prompting, like prompt marketing.
00;39;59;14 - 00;40;19;27
Chris
There's there's a class of people who do this, you know, a lot of creatives, you know, authors, stylistics, cetera, etc. like their bread and butter is brand work. They just don't advertise that. They do it because it's not cool for their cred. I mean, within our space, right? No one really knows what slums does or or who songs is.
00;40;19;27 - 00;40;34;22
Chris
But you don't think like someone like slums could could be out there pushing, pushing these sort of levers, making things like this happen certainly has the skill set for it, and it's certainly been practicing it in public for the last couple of years.
00;40;34;24 - 00;40;39;16
Aaron
We live in interesting times, guys. Interesting times indeed we do.
00;40;39;18 - 00;41;15;10
Pri
You know, what's funny is Louis has a collaboration with Studio Ghibli and like, you're seeing some momentum around like, even the fashion goods around the way people are searching the Studio Ghibli like collaboration items, like the bags and the scarves and stuff. The Studio Ghibli scarves like, it's interesting to me that that like, has like second or third for effects to Studio Ghibli like, and these fashion brands who've done collaborations with them, like that's also a thing that's kind of happening underneath this, like ChatGPT meme, which is just like, I don't know, it's it's not it's just interesting to me that that's happening.
00;41;15;13 - 00;41;19;27
Pri
Like, people are going on eBay and, and realreal and stuff and looking for that.
00;41;19;29 - 00;41;27;15
Chris
So are you saying like, I should rummage through my house on, like, all the old Ghibli merch the kids have aged out of and get it on eBay and Poshmark?
00;41;27;17 - 00;41;29;03
Pri
Honestly, possibly.
00;41;29;05 - 00;41;32;20
Chris
Or is it already too late? I need it to be 36 hours ago.
00;41;32;27 - 00;41;50;13
Pri
I know it might be too late, but there's still people searching. I was like Danny Loftus yesterday and she was screenshotting like a lot of that actually. I was in an event yesterday. Someone was wearing the Studio Ghibli collaborative purse, which then kicked off this conversation, and then everyone went on eBay and Realreal to try to find that collab merch.
00;41;50;13 - 00;42;09;00
Pri
And I was like, wow, that's such an interesting phenomena that this, like prompt turned into people wanting to buy a logo, a collaborative like the like, Ghibli collaborative like bags and scarves and stuff. It's just like funny kind of thing that you see. Memes just transcend so many different mediums, man.
00;42;09;02 - 00;42;21;00
Chris
You know, free. If if we were living in your, your network state with a fashion, manufacturing already built in, I mean, your lines would have been going crazy yesterday.
00;42;21;02 - 00;42;34;23
Pri
Dude. Can you. That's what I want to do is just, like, 3D print, like mimetic fashion. Immediately. I think this meme hits like, we just immediately partnership with major brand and start creating custom merch like Day of.
00;42;34;23 - 00;42;35;24
Chris
It's no longer.
00;42;35;26 - 00;42;38;17
Aaron
It's no longer fast fashion. It's meme fashion.
00;42;38;19 - 00;42;43;15
Pri
Meme fashion. Exactly. From fast fashion to meme fashion. I'm gonna tweet that your drones.
00;42;43;15 - 00;42;52;01
Chris
Our eyes are like defending your homeland. Or they're dropping their dropshipping memetic fast fashion every morning so people can, be with it.
00;42;52;04 - 00;43;14;10
Aaron
Yeah, it sounds great on that. Just on the manufacturing side, I did have an interesting conversation with somebody this week who is noting that just the cost related to, like, developing low cost hardware devices is just drop, like precipitously in the past couple of years. So more data points to support, you know, like this, more localized manufacturing, Chris.
00;43;14;12 - 00;43;28;01
Aaron
Like, you can create like, you know, a thousand item runs like super, super cheap, cheaply, you know, like, design them, manufacture them, assemble them. Like the costs are just falling rapidly.
00;43;28;04 - 00;43;49;09
Chris
I gotta say, I'm kind of glad that that's happening now and not in 2010 when I was at like the height of my hubris, because when I back in the day, when I saw was what was coming out of Shenzhen and how they were like starting to transform that whole consumer electronics, you know, workflow, I, I got the edge and I do not need a Waterloo of hardware.
00;43;49;12 - 00;43;56;05
Chris
But to all the kids these days, you can do it faster, cheaper with less risk. God bless them. Get out there. And
00;43;56;08 - 00;44;14;23
Aaron
Or at least test the market, right. Like, I don't think it it it I don't think that it solves the challenge of like mass production of these objects and items in electronics, but at least you can, you know, create a couple thousand people want them and then scale it up, which I think is part of the challenge. You have to deal with customs.
00;44;14;23 - 00;44;38;12
Aaron
You don't have to deal with all these headaches and challenges. I think that that's like a big chasm for lots of these projects and companies to go through just such a big cycle to like, manufacture something, to stick it in the hands of people. And it just feels like you can shorten that initial stage considerably. And by doing that, open up like new products, services make them AI enabled.
00;44;38;12 - 00;44;39;28
Aaron
Like all that, all that jazz.
00;44;40;01 - 00;44;48;05
Chris
I really have to say, I'm picturing you right now with a thousand weak thumbed robots going door to door Jersey, trying to sell them.
00;44;48;07 - 00;44;51;16
Aaron
Just like robots with chopsticks for for fingers.
00;44;51;19 - 00;45;11;20
Pri
Listening to this podcast with like, Travis Kalanick, who's doing the Cloud Kitchen stuff and his view, he said that in 100 years that like, no one would be cooking, it would all be like printed or immediately delivered to you, which is like fascinating to me as well. Like kind of sad, but also kind of sweet.
00;45;11;22 - 00;45;30;18
Chris
Yeah, I can see it. I mean, the trend trend lines are going that way that being said, like sometimes I just need to work with my hands, you know, like there is, there's a mental switching that happens right when you have a sharp knife in your hand and like, you know, your focus totally changes and it's very therapeutic.
00;45;30;22 - 00;45;36;29
Aaron
It's cathartic. Yeah, I, I think I think we want you to use your opposable thumbs. Chris.
00;45;37;02 - 00;45;58;11
Pri
Man used to go to war, and now they, from Studio Ghibli on on ChatGPT. That's how we're, Well, welcome to Net Society. It's me, Chris, Derek and Aaron. Today we're a podcast series exploring the world of digital art. Crypto I detect are you bringing you deep insights, fresh perspectives, and hitting on some themes that are explored in some of the deals.
00;45;58;13 - 00;46;12;28
Pri
Which NFL wild and fun conversations. Just a quick disclaimer though. These thoughts are our own and not of the not so that of our employer. So welcome. So I was a little late on the intro, as usual. I'm sorry about that.
00;46;13;05 - 00;46;24;12
Derek
I thought this was a good start today, guys. Like, I feel like this is like the the banner topic for our banner podcasts, and I feel like we did we did adjust justice. Gone through, run and run into the merits.
00;46;24;14 - 00;46;27;03
Aaron
All right, guys, should we call it all right? Yeah.
00;46;27;05 - 00;46;28;10
Chris
You guys have a good.
00;46;28;10 - 00;46;29;10
Aaron
We can get. Yo.
00;46;29;12 - 00;46;47;26
Chris
All right to hit.