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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
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I think the government sees the potential for more tax revenues, you know, with the opening of online casinos. But there are lots of challenges, you know, it's a little bit a war on numbers, you know, of course, land-based casinos saying that, you know, the potential tax revenues are largely overestimated, you know, by uh the online stakeholders. um So I still think it's a question of when and not a question of if, know, anymore at least. Within industry circles, France is recognised as one of Europe's most polemical yet intriguing gambling markets. Its regulatory status divides opinion as a high-value market with strong consumer rights that continues to exclude online casino. In today's iGaming Daily podcast, we are joined by French gambling legal experts Annabel Richard and Diane Molyneux, partners of Pinset Maces and members of the International Masters of Gambling Law. The experts will dissect France's regulatory framework shaped by the competing interests of government regulators and state operators and wider political stakeholders. Welcome to the iGaming Daily Podcast brought to you by Optimu, the creator of positionless marketing and the number one player engagement solution for the iGaming and sports betting operators. So Annabel, Darren, welcome to the iGaming Daily Podcast and we're here to talk about France. How has your summer of football been? Let's just start there at that kind of point. You're asking a very difficult question, But the good thing about the World Cup is I hold both passports, the British and the French one, so I respectively finished in fourth, which is not that bad. So it's been a traumatic experience, is what you're telling us. It has been a traumatic experience, the last game between England and France, which was the longest game ever, to be honest. Not to be compared to the final last night, to be fair. But at least the cup is European, so not everything is lost. Okay, well, let's begin by... I want to present to the audiences how the makeup of modern French gambling and... As someone who follows this market, it's a bit of a paradox, right? It's one of Europe's largest markets, yet it operates under a very restrictive model, but also has strong consumer rights and laws that are quite progressive in terms of how you govern gambling. Can you tell me how France has reached this point, especially over the last five years? Well, it's an interesting point because I think, you know, France is a little bit, as you say, the French paradox. It's not the first time that this expression is used for France for many, many things. I think the issue is today, France needs to face a number of regulatory changes. There's an ongoing pressure, as you know, to regulate the online casinos. And it's one of the markets in Europe that doesn't. regulate online casino, it's been in the pipeline for very long. I think that today there's an acknowledgement that whatever the shape or form, it has to be regulated. This is also due to the fact that there is a quite a large black market which France acknowledged it needs to control. So I think the paradox here, and if we oppose two very known jurisdictions like the UK and France, because the population is more or less the same. It's interesting to see that France is now thinking about regulating differently, but also moving towards more regulation. But you know, the challenge is always more regulation and how you actually push innovation. So I think it's a little bit the reality where France is facing today is how they're going to choose, you know, which way they're going to go. And France has never seen itself, I think, as a happy gambling, you know. market. was always another paradox is, for example, the number of land-based casinos, but the reluctance of acknowledging the importance of the gambling industry in France. um land-based casinos have a significant weight in local economies in different places in France. uh But France opened online gambling to competition under the very strong pressure from the European Union. Otherwise, they considered that they did not want to create or more like it increase the power of gambling in France. want to take this to the political ranks in Paris. And how is that kind of the debate? on the future of online gambling. How is that kind of being witnessed and played out in the top ranks of French government? Is it something that they want to continue towards kind of being restrictive? And where are kind of current discussions heading towards? Well, it's twofold, basically. I think it goes back to the point of Annabelle. It's not, you know, if it's when and how they're going to do this. I think what is interesting is two sides of it. It's the lack of getting tax revenue from this loss of gaming. when you model, for example, on the UK, the market for online casino is $5 billion. It's a lot of money. Although the French market is as big as the UK, which is mainly driven by sports betting. So there's one issue about additional tax revenue. But how do you compromise this with the... the addiction issue. And as Annabel said, we have the largest number of uh brick and mortar casinos in Europe and they have very strong lobbying purpose, strong lobbying power at the highest rank. And when you look, what is interesting when you compare with other countries, a lot of the leading online operators are actually domestic. operators because when you look in the three first one, have FDG, have PMU and then you have BetClick. So it's a market that you don't have actually the regulation has pushed, you know, let's say incumbent or at least historic operators as opposed to other market where you have, you know, a very big concentration with the usual suspects such as Bet365 or Flutero and others. But I find that kind of intriguing because at least these are home market brands and isn't kind of, you know, the purpose of the market to kind of be modeled towards that. Isn't that better than having international brands or brands that actually hire and employ in France and are connected to the consumer? Annabelle. Yeah, think, you know, um it's the result of a history, you know, as Dan was mentioning, two of the biggest operators that she mentioned are actually holding monopolies. know, FDJ and PMU are both holding monopolies, both uh online and land based. um So online only for FDJ. So, of course, it gives them a very specific, you know, place on the market and uh a relationship with French players that other brands have tried to establish. And honestly, some of the international operators have very, very nice market shares now on the French market. But, you know, because they are not able to pair, you know, a land-based offer with an online offer, maybe it gives them a slight disadvantage. Of course, if we were to legalize online casino, my personal opinion is that bits would significantly potentially uh affect who's the biggest operator on the French market. And I'm not entirely sure whether it's FDJ or PMU would keep the lead. They could, particularly FDJ, depending on the model that is chosen. um But um it's not absolutely certain in my opinion. Just adding another layer, it all goes back to antitrust and monopoly, how far you can actually strengthen the monopoly. In every industry starting by telecom or other, the fact that you have a physical point of sale presence, that was the case with France Telecom, or it's the case with FDG or PMU, which you know there's a number of. the cafes and bars that actually allow for um the host's betting is giving you an incredible advantage into reaching people in the furthest place of France. again, is regulation, it actually, as you say, push domestic champions or it should actually open to more competition and welcome more international players? It's all about the offering for the consumer at the end of the day. there is no um very strong support from a legislative perspective to the opening of uh competition for online casinos, where you have very strong political support with the local uh elected members of parliament uh for land-based casinos who are still considering that the opening of online casinos would be extremely negative for their... sustainability. Can you break that down for me? I who are kind of the stakeholders in this debate on the future of French online gambling? You know, in terms of, yes, everyone's talking about the regulation of online casino, but also who kind of oversees the competitive makeup of French gambling and also kind of the consumer rights interests. Who's shaping this debate? Well, you have a number of stakeholders. You do have the trade union of the brick and mortar casino, which is, know, the casino groups in France are quite independent. we can go back on the acquisition of Joab at Bani-Jay, which is an interesting one, by the way. um But, you know, from the Partouche and the Barrière and others, you have a lot of independent casinos. The regulation in France to actually have a casino, had to be a place where it was a touristic purpose. was tourmalism and spas and everything. And that explains why in small cities you have casinos and the coverage is quite wide. So one angle. is, as Annabel said, is the local constituency making her their voice about being not only a place of employment for the local people, but also a place of entertainment. Because now, not that we say we go for all integrated casino, but the latest standards for casino, it's a place where you have a restaurant, where you have also the possibility to come with your wife and kids. And sometimes it does a purpose as a place of entertainment. So you have the local constituents and the workforce. Then you have obviously the brick and mortar land-based casinos that I is hoping for. Eventually if the market opened, they will have an exclusivity on what we for certain times saying they have invested a lot in getting the contracts. And then you have the online operators. it's an, obviously all the gambling addiction association and others, which, you know, it's proven that online casino is very addictive. So you have all those issues coming together, together with the need for more revenue. And this is where the debate is going. I don't know whether Annabel, you have anything to add? No, I think that's absolutely correct. And that goes back to what we're saying. Local elected members of parliament tend to be extremely supportive and protective about this source of both revenues and um you know, life basically uh in their local jurisdictions. And that plays a very, very uh important part in the political debate around the opening of online casinos, you know, and honestly, that's why it has never been seriously discussed so far is because, you know, it's still the majority in at least the parliament, you know, I think the government sees the potential for more tax revenues, you know, with the opening of online casinos. But there are lots of challenges, you know, it's a little bit a war on numbers, you know, of course, land-based casinos saying that, you know, the potential tax revenues are largely overestimated, you know, by uh the online stakeholders. um So I still think it's a question of when and not a question of if, you know, anymore, at least. um But it's going to take some time and let's be clear, nothing's going to happen before the next presidential elections in France. No serious debates around that. It's uh not really possible in the current political environment. uh also, again, there's no uh vision of this question being a priority at the moment. Annabelle, I'm going to return to you because you said a lot of kind of intriguing stuff, but I think is this debate really about can the French government kind of control that kind of change in consumerism towards online and still protect kind of localized interests? Is that kind of the paradox of French gambling? It is the paradox of French gambling. Honestly, don't think France is the only place where it's a paradox or a difficulty. It's this transition to a more and more digital world. I if we go from gambling to gaming, I'm sure you also saw the announcement from PlayStation. They're abandoning the physical support and going full online. when you see the number of criticism or comments or concerns that this announcement is uh generating, you understand that this digital transition goes way beyond the gambling sector. So in terms of specifically online casinos, I personally believe that... uh the experience in other countries, which uh some of them like UK, you know, have accepted online casinos for a very long time. But we see some jurisdiction like Switzerland or Belgium, where it's more recent, you know, and we can see that despite what land based casinos are saying, the opening of online did not kill, you know, the land based uh ecosystem, basically. um So it's a question of finding the right balance between protecting uh legitimate interests and trying not to kill local economies on which a number of smaller towns and cities are relying heavily, but still moving to a um more state of the... not state of the art, but state of the market, which is the reality in all other EU jurisdiction at the moment, acknowledging that whether it's about gambling or not gambling, you cannot exclude digital anymore. And again, going back to uh illegal market, acknowledging that whether you do have legal online casino offer, French players are playing online casino at the moment. And that by refusing to regulate, France is... uh abandoning them in a way because you know not providing them a safe environment for you know their games whatever they are. So Annabelle Diane there's a lot to kind of balance out in the first half we're just going to take a quick break and when we return we're going to look towards kind of the regulatory vision and what is that play for France's gambling future. Learn how OptiMove's positionless marketing is changing how iGaming teams operate. Discover how operators are using OptiMove's positionless marketing platform to launch personalized CRM campaigns, dynamically change casino lobbies and bet slips and create engaging game-wide experiences. Learn more at OptiMove.com. And welcome back to this iGaming Daily podcast special on the French market. And joining me are Annabel Ricard and Diane Moulinier from Now, we're going to return back to the subject of France's regulatory future, but I want to kind of look back at the role of the Autorité nationale des Jeux, ANJ. And has it achieved its objective of unifying French gambling? Diane? Beautiful pronunciation, Ted. Yeah. So I think ANJ has changed a lot over the past year as you know, it's quite an old authority and it has moved forward. think they were ready to take some quite innovative challenge with the Jonum law, was quite of a sandbox law, really interesting. So in terms of unifying, I think we have a regulator which is quite close to the market, I mean, obviously heavily regulated. I think where we have is the idea that regulation means also some control. And so we have a lot of control over the ads, over the data and everything, and the compliance burden is quite heavy on the regulator. And some of our clients are saying that it's the toughest license to get. and that includes the US market. And it's heavily technically regulated as well. I mean, it's not only the process, the email, the brands, but the backbone. And France was the first on the forefront with the Frontale and the Volt, which has been now copied in other European jurisdictions. So I think, as Annabel said, from a law that was very driven by the Ministry of Defense, but not only Ministry of Home Affairs, and it was heavily regulated. I think France has a quite unique regulation model, but that hasn't impeded growth because the market has grown very differently than other markets, mainly on sports. But the latest numbers in 2025, and we're still looking at 2026, which is a little bit biased with the World Cup, but 2025, we didn't have the Olympics, neither big sports event. Actually, the number increased 3%. So the position of ANJ is actually to say that it's a market which is now getting more more independent on the big events, which is very different from some other models. So I think the landscape for the regulator is to see how he's going to address the online casino, but also how he's going to deal with some European regulation, but also the move that we have seen in the UK or in Australia about banning social media. you know, all the issue around advertisement that we also have in the UK, which we have to certain extent in Italy, is the position about, you know, advertisement and control and addiction. And I think, you know, the harmonization was not complete in France. Let's not forget that, you know, in 2020, when we moved from Argel, you know, the previous regulator to ANJ, yes, the regulators powers were increased in order to cover the monopolies the casinos, land-based only of course, and online operators, but not on all topics. So for example, when you talk about land-based casinos, ANJ is overseeing only the questions related to identification and support for um problem gamblers. anything related to addiction is covered by ANJ, but you still have the police des jeux, the gambling police. which is overseeing the acquisition of equipment and their maintenance, etc. and delivering all kinds of agreements and licenses in relation to casino uh equipment. So it's harmonized only to a certain extent. ANJ does not have uh full control on the entire industry yet. Notably, if there was an opening of online casino, it might be the opportunity to definitely have ANJ overseeing all regulatory issues on the market. But that's not the case today. So it's a it's a ganic authority that's undergoing a period transition now with the new. I think a new chair is taking taking governance this month. What would your advice be? Last month. Yeah, that's right. uh What would your advice be to the new leadership of the ANJ? I'm not sure we are in a position to give advice. What is interesting is that the new president of ANJ has some experience in the gambling industry. In previous positions, already had to get interested and more uh understanding how the market works in France. So that's a first, you know, because all presidents that we had in the past um had potential knowledge, you know, in the sports sector or as the head of big regulators in France, but not necessarily uh of the gambling sector itself. So that's interesting to note that this time, you know, the government chose someone with actual uh market experience, you know, in gambling. um In terms of advice, I said, I wouldn't say I'm in a position to give any advice. What I would like the new president to consider is keep the uh vision from the past president, because I think the market grew in terms of sophistication and uh being more professional, more structured, more mature. And that was in part due to the regulator stepping up, you know, also to the challenges that the sector is meeting. But maybe my request would be to be um supporting, you know, the necessary evolution of the sector, including, in my opinion, addressing the question of the opening of online casinos. I'm sure, Diane, you may have other advices. I'm going to be a bit provocative. um I think the... The profile of the new president is, as Annabel said, pretty unusual from the one that we had before. And obviously, he's coming from a monopoly. what um I would, it's not that I have any recommendation, but I think it's really important for the market to thrive in the industry to thrive, that he's going to be the regulator of all gaming and gambling operators and that he actually Because having worked in historic um incumbents or domestic operators in a certain way um is a very different way of new entrants. I think what I wish is that we continue having this interaction, this dialogue, which foster innovation, but also um the relationship with the past regulators were very good. And it's also about bringing the point of view of some new entrants and in trying to make France a competitive market? But okay if we rewind back to kind of two weeks ago and there's been this acquisition by Banjai Banjai Gaming part of this massive you know Euronex Corporation Banjai Entertainment biggest production firm in Europe one of the world biggest in the world multi-billion dollar company acquires Joa uh Joa's municipal casinos Does this kind of move the dial and does the kind of ANJ recognize that the competitive makeup of French gambling is changing and therefore, you know, the regulations and laws need to kind of reflect that? I think coming from a different angle, think the acquisition uh means that today, whether it's, you know, I lead on a sector and the sector is sports and entertainment. It does cover gaming, it's cover entertainment, cover sports. There's a huge convergence between sports, entertainment and gaming. And when you see the acquisition then, you know, this group how it has leaded into the world of hospitality, has leaded into the world of entertainment and everything. Clients are looking, and when I say clients and players and gaming for experience, and I think, know, I'll go back to the very point of whether it says something on the regulation of online casinos, but I think more largely when you see Bernard Arnault buying high rocks for one billion, which is basically, as you know, uh a pretty drastic sports event, it's all about the co-branding and making some product association and some partnership. There's not a single sports event or entertainment, including in gaming, which is not about a partnership, whether it's ambassador, whether it's sponsorship. And you have to look at different way now because there's more and more regulation about what you can display on jerseys and everything. So I think... For me, this acquisition is a diversification which is following the trend of the industry to diversify itself. You and I, three years ago, we never thought that Bernardo would buy a high rocks because his portfolio was only luxury products. That's number one. Number two, obviously, there's all those discussions about having an opening of the gaming that will go through land-based casino. And if you are into the land-based casino and you own this, you'll be in a very good position to negotiate agreements with any international uh investors or sponsors or anything because you might be on the paths of being legal. So I think it's also... an idea that if the market moves in the right direction, you are in a very good position to negotiate those sponsorship and those product placements and the ambassador's agreements because you'll have everything of every world. So I'm going to end today's podcast on a point of reflection. So the 2020s are really being kind of French gambling is kind of most transformed the decade. But how does this end? How do you see French gambling? by 2030, what's going to move it forward? What subjects do think it's going to progress on? Is it going to be or is it just pointing toward kind of a deeper protectionism of its terms of play? No, I think the market will evolve in a way to, as I say, know, the online. As you know, I think it's definitely going to go on players protection, but because this is not only France, it's Europe or generally, but not only Europe is Australia. So it's really about the, you know, leading on innovation, opening the market, but keeping this tradition. And I think France will be pretty. um know, stringent on that. And I think we've seen, you know, recently we haven't spoke about, but you know, the role of the platform, the social media, the use by underage and you know, how gaming is used on certain platform, including worldwide platform and how this is going to shift the dial, you know, because if you have a general ban on, you know, social media access below 16, below 18, it's going to change completely the way you make revenue. And this is where Benny Jay has an interesting, you know, outlook into how things are going to go. So for me, it's going to go towards some new laws, but also some restrictions. But France is not only the only one in this game. Anyway, France is pushed by Europe. So for me, it's going into the same direction. And this is what we see with the UK. They opened up and now they're looking into being more stringent, more regulation. And they even have a new football regulator, which France had for the last 40 years. Annabel, please take us out. Your final thoughts. Well, I totally agree with what Diane said, of course. Again, concerning France specifically, I sincerely hope that by 2030, know, online casinos will be opened to competition, you know, with a healthy regulation that allows true competitions, know, new entrants, not only huge players because I think uh the market will have an interest in having all kinds of players, the big ones, but also the smaller, maybe more local ones. uh I think we are moving, but this time not only in France, as Diane was saying, uh different roles uh in terms of fight against addiction and uh problem at risk uh gambling. um notably through uh additional regulation around marketing. mean, generally, um digital marketing, advertising is changing significantly. I think, yes, the role of the platforms, the algorithms, we hear about them a lot, not only about gambling, but this is going to play a role. mean, this transition will be technology driven. AI is going to play a significant role. in my opinion, in driving more engagement from players, you know, and therefore giving a different role to marketing. know, when you see the role of AI today in shaping, for example, the odds, you know, or the way, you know, the different types of sports betting are structured, you know, in terms of offers and that type of things. Definitely by 2030, technology is going to be even more than it is now, a significant point. I think as always, the European regulator will not be able to prevent itself from trying to give some rules around the way it could be done. And notably making sure that miners, excessive gamblers, But generally consumers are well protected, know, and France tend to be at the forefront of this type of regulation. So this is not going to change. But again, it's not going to be, in my opinion, French specific. France might be slightly stricter than other regulatory uh regimes, but it will not be the only one, you know, implementing this new type of vision. So, Annabelle, that it seems like. The French Gamma Chapter is still very much open. But thanks for joining us today. You've been absolutely fantastic. Ted, you have to join us at the conference of IMG in Paris because we'll have fresh tour from AJ and we have some CEOs of the leading French gaming companies. you know, they're going to be an update in definitely in September. is my town. Absolutely great. Thanks for tuning in today. you