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Our podcast features special guests and leaders discussing the many projects, partnerships, and innovations driving hydrogen adoption — starting in the Edmonton Metro Region, and expanding outward to Alberta, Canada, and the World.
Edmonton Region Hydrogen HUB is a collaborative initiative dedicated to advancing a thriving hydrogen economy in the Edmonton Region and beyond. Bringing together municipalities, industry, and associations, the HUB focuses on building a robust hydrogen value chain through collaboration, system integration, and policy advocacy. Leveraging the region’s world-class hydrogen production facilities and strategic infrastructure, the HUB drives innovation, promotes decarbonization, and stimulates economic growth, positioning the Edmonton region as a global leader in sustainable hydrogen development.
Welcome to the hydrogen two point o podcast where Alberta's energy story evolves. Join us as we explore what's changed, what's working, and what's next from Edmonton to beyond. Here's your host, Kessia Kopecki.
Kessia:Okay. Hi. Hi, Amit. Thanks for joining. So, we're here with Amit Kumar.
Kessia:He's the professor for the faculty of engineering in the mechanical engineering department at the University of Alberta. So thank you for joining us today.
Amit:Yeah. Thank you, Kasia.
Kessia:I'd like to start just by talking first off, I I mentioned this in our first episode for anyone listening that, you know, a lot of people listening are usual suspects. They might know who we are. We're in the Edmonton region, and and you also are quite a notable creature in the Edmonton region's hydrogen ecosystem. However, for anybody listening that has not heard your name before or is unfamiliar with the work that you do, I'd love if you could just tell me a little bit about who you are, your history in the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy.
Amit:Hey. Thank you, Gesheer, and thanks for the kind introduction. Hydrogen has played a key role in how, you know, I would say the work that I have been doing and then how it has shaped, what we have done it here at University of Alberta. See, I joined University of Alberta in 02/2005, so almost twenty years ago. Time flies.
Amit:And hydrogen economy, I mean, it has picked up quite a lot. Everybody talks about hydrogen, not only here globally too. But we started working on hydrogen almost fifteen, sixteen years ago, and that was a small project that we did with Alberta in a way. At that time, we were looking at underground coal gasification. So, you know, these are unminable coals where you produce syngas underground and then bring that gas on the surface, separate hydrogen and c o two, sequestered c o two and produce hydrogen.
Amit:That was fifteen years ago. We continuously, worked on hydrogen in various ways of producing hydrogen, wind, solar, looking at what does it cost, what are the technologies available, how we can do that. And and that was like, you know, almost, you know, ten to fifteen years ago, we continuously working on, on hydrogen. And then, you know, four or five years ago, the Department of Energy, came to us in terms of looking at what are the opportunities of hydrogen for Alberta. And that led us to work on doing a comprehensive study and to help the development of Alberta hydrogen roadmap with the government announced in 2021.
Amit:And once the, hydrogen roadmap was announced, I mean, that's like three to four years ago. And I remember we talked about it couple of years ago, when the hydrogen roadmap was announced. But that has led to a lot of activity and interest here. I mean, not only in the Alberta region, but also a lot of interest at, at the university. And, you know, a lot of people and researchers are they were working on hydrogen, but a lot of focus has now gone into developing further this area of hydrogen production, utilization, transportation, storage, so on.
Amit:And so, you know, this led to development of a lot of critical mass here, at University of Alberta. And so, you know, we launched this, center for hydrogen innovation, workforce development and outreach here. And and I would love to talk about that more. But that's kind of, you know, where, you know, I see how it has come up, over the years with a lot of work. I would say almost more than a decade of work in this domain.
Amit:And now we are at, kind of one of the forefront in terms of this concerted effort in hydrogen domain in Canada and even globally, I would say.
Kessia:So it's been going on for a while here in Alberta and at the U of A, it sounds like you said about ten to fifteen years or about fifteen years ago is when you started looking at hydrogen and actually studying it and doing some dedicated research. After that, it went more and focused into Alberta's hydrogen economy and the potential with that. When you're looking at that and when especially now hindsight's 2020, what are the big trends or changes that you've seen over the last fifteen years in Alberta's hydrogen economy when it comes to, your understanding of, like, the the economy of it, the opportunity, but also the way that it aligns with your research?
Amit:And and CE, when we talk about hydrogen, hydrogen is not neutral, but and the Edmonton region. We have been using hydrogen for more than two to three decades, would say, especially in the oil sense. We use large scale, large amounts of hydrogen, in our oil sand sector. I mean, one of the key user is using hydrogen to upgrade our bitumen. So all the upgraders that you see in Alberta, those use large amount of hydrogen.
Amit:They produce large amount of hydrogen. So in the oil sand sector, we have been using it for a long time. In the fertilizer sector, also a lot I mean, this is again several decades to fertilizer needs hydrogen. And now what has happened is that the thought process has shifted to using hydrogen in other sector. So the simplest way of understanding this is that wherever you use natural gas to produce heat and power, you can use hydrogen.
Amit:So for example, residential sector, we use natural gas for heating in our furnaces. Potentially, you can use hydrogen
Kessia:for it.
Amit:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You look at commercial sectors, same thing. You can use hydrogen for it.
Amit:We look at, industrial sector. An industrial sector, these are hard to abate sector. For example, cement sector. We use a lot of energy, lot of natural gas to produce heat. You can use hydrogen there.
Amit:You look at iron and steel, same issue. Again, you can use hydrogen to produce heat. You look at other industries wherever you use natural gas, you can use hydrogen, as an energy source. And that's kind of one of the key drivers. So now the focus is in looking at all the other demand sectors for utilization of hydrogen.
Amit:The other key aspect I would also say is that, you know, there has been a lot focus on development of renewable energy. So we have been using, you know, solar and wind to generate electricity. But the challenge with that is they are intermittent. What does that mean? Is that you don't get sun 24 a day.
Amit:You get it six hours in Edmonton, probably peak winter, six hours a day, probably in summer longer. But again, it's intermittent. Same with wind. Wind doesn't blow all the time. What hydrogen provides is a way to store that energy.
Amit:So when wind is like, you know, it's blowing. And when you don't have solar, you have wind. Potentially, you can store these energy in form of hydrogen. So you use that electricity to produce hydrogen and then, you know, through electrolysis. But the key is, again, storage of these renewable energy is another key piece.
Amit:So the thought process has shifted not only like we still use lot amount large amount of hydrogen in the refining fertilizer sector and chemical sector. But the the the most of these focus has now shifted to how can we decarbonize these, the other sector. And and and decarbonize, what I mean by that is, you know, all the natural gas that we use for producing heat and power, whenever natural gas is combusted, it produces carbon dioxide. And and the focus of global focus is on reaching net zero emission, so reduce carbon dioxide emission. And hydrogen provides a way to do that because when you burn hydrogen, you produce water.
Amit:That's it. No carbon. So, you know, that those kind of the factors had led to more interest in hydrogen and diversifying, you know, not only the use in the refining in the traditional sector, but all the other sectors.
Kessia:So is this it sounds like you're all, laying on a little bit of a the opportunity here. Right? Like, there's a there's a lot of ways that hydrogen can be used. There's lot of ways that it makes sense in Alberta, and and there's a lot of learnings that have taken place that have gotten you here. Is this kind of where the the seed has been planted for the center for hydrogen innovation?
Kessia:And can you tell me a little bit about this new center as well?
Amit:Yeah. Great. So, you know, the center now you can't solve the challenge for the hydrogen value chain or hydrogen economy by just focusing on one aspect. What I mean by that is if you look at the hydrogen value chain, you have hydrogen production, hydrogen transportation, hydrogen storage, and then hydrogen utilization. And this is what our center does.
Amit:It focuses on the whole hydrogen value chain.
Kessia:So you're you're probably able if you're focusing on the entire value chain, you have almost like a bird's eye view at this point. If you're looking at everything, even granularly take a step back, you you might be able to identify where the gaps are that or the opportunities there are in order to potentially, I guess, make this value chain more sustainable or concrete or filled out. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about what that might look like
Amit:Right. If
Kessia:you can.
Amit:Yeah. So, you know, so if you think about and I I'd like to talk a little bit about when I talked about the the center. So those four vertical pillars. So we have researchers who are working on hydrogen production, hydrogen transportation, storage, utilization. And where we are trying to develop technologies which could make a hydrogen much more attractive.
Amit:And and, you know, trying to address challenges which are there in each of these vertical pillars. So, you know, we look at different types of hydrogen production technologies. So you maintain. So currently, hydrogen is produced from steam methane reforming traditional process. But we are looking at what are the new processes of using methane to produce hydrogen.
Amit:So for example, methane paralysis, where we basically heat natural gas, produce hydrogen but also produce solid carbon, not CO2, but solid carbon. And then solid carbon could be used for different purposes. We also have, you know, lot of researchers working on how do we produce hydrogen from renewable sources. So for example, using solar energy to produce hydrogen by splitting water. We have researchers who are working on using municipal solid waste and biomass to produce hydrogen.
Amit:So again, a whole spectrum of new and advanced technology to produce hydrogen. You look at transportation and storage. That's one of the biggest challenge in terms of hydrogen. See, the current existing natural gas pipelines, you can blend up to 15 to 20% of hydrogen by volume, but you can't go beyond that. The challenge is in terms of issues of transportation.
Amit:There is embittlement in the pipe. So what we are trying to do, sorry, are you still there?
Kessia:I was just I am just curious about sorry. You piqued my interest.
Amit:Okay. Go ahead. With
Kessia:the with the blending, why only 15 to 20%? And when you mentioned that there's there's challenges around that, I'm just really curious if you can just tell me a little bit more about
Amit:Yeah. So what happens to that yeah. Hydrogen when you increase the volume, the percentage of hydrogen, in the the pipeline with the natural gas pipeline, there is embrittlement. There is cracking in the pipeline. And and that is one of the key challenges that, you know, in using the existing infrastructure.
Amit:Some could be refurbished, but the the the challenge is in terms of developing these large scale hydrogen pathway. So you could have hydrogen pipeline. You could have materials where we just build a pipeline which is specifically for hydrogen, but those are expensive. And then the other way that you could address those challenges is in terms of converting it to forms which could be transported. So for example, liquid organic hydrogen carrier, you add chemicals to hydrogen, you produce a a a a carrier fluid which is similar to crude oil.
Amit:So you can then transport it by crude oil pipelines. You could probably and then there's a lot of talk about forming, ammonia from hydrogen transporting ammonia by rail, which we are already doing on a commercial scale because we do a lot of fertilizer transportation, and probably methanol. So, you know, the challenge of hydrogen transportation, so not pipeline, existing infrastructure pipeline, the issue is in terms of, you know, how much you can blend. But then the solution for this is in terms of either you do 100% hydrogen pipeline or you form some chemical carriers which can then take hydrogen, from one place to another, and then you separate hydrogen from that in terms of LOHC or ammonia and then use it. And so those are kind of, you know, some of the ways that we could do this and the challenge of handling hydrogen and transporting hydrogen from one place to another place.
Kessia:Thanks for letting me go down that rabbit hole with you.
Amit:No problem.
Kessia:Okay. So I guess when we're looking at this Center for Hydrogen and Innovation, and workforce development as well. So are you doing research at this center for workforce development, or is it more that you're developing the workforce at the center?
Amit:Okay. Very good question. And I would say, both. More, I would say, is focused on training the workforce for the hydrogen economy. And it's not that this is new to us as I said.
Amit:So we have been working on hydrogen for more than decades, more than a decade. And, you know, so people are being trained. The focus now is more on developing the dedicated certificate programs, dedicated training programs, dedicated advanced degree in hydrogen. And that's where our focus is in terms of the workforce development for the hydrogen economy. And this is across workforce for across the value chain.
Kessia:Would that be across Alberta's value chain, or or is a lot of this workforce, knowledge that you have and work that you're doing, would it be almost blueprint across Canada or the world, or is there a level that might be applicable to the rest of the world or the rest of the workforce in the energy economy?
Amit:And this is for the global workforce. I mean, is not only for Alberta. The training that we provide and the the these courses are applicable anywhere. A hydrogen molecule is a hydrogen molecule. Whether you use it in Alberta or in Europe or in Asia is the same.
Amit:The hydrogen production system is the same. So the training that we're gonna provide to them and these, people, they would be, basically equipped with doing their work anywhere. We train people in different areas, and they are working globally, in different companies globally, in in industries everywhere.
Kessia:But looking at the University of Alberta's leadership in energy and especially engineering, is the University of Alberta positioned to be a leader in workforce development and research for hydrogen? Where do you see it standing globally amongst other research institutions?
Amit:I would say see, if you look at University of Alberta, we are one of the top producer and outputs. We produce, like, you know, one of the top producer in energy domain globally, not only in Alberta, not only in Canada, but globally. Our output in energy research and energy training has been, you know, over the decades, one of the top outputs, output producers we are. And it's like, you know, hydrogen we are talking about now, although we have been doing research, but we have done this in other domain. You look at the oil sector, oil and gas sector.
Amit:You know, University of Alberta has contributed so much to producing the workforce and training people to work in the industry, and these are working globally. So, you know, for for for us, it's not only Alberta or Canada. And and with the type of training that we have, a training environment that we have, we are training we will be training for global workforce. Now I'll talk a little bit about in terms of, you know, if you look at our center, this is unique because you have such a large critical mass. And we are not working in isolation.
Amit:So more than 60 researchers, and this we are just talking about 60 professors who are working in this domain, but they will have their research and research teams working on various aspects of So, you know, you might find, you know, people globally are working on different aspects of hydrogen, but a concerted effort in terms of the whole hydrogen value chain and on a such a large scale, you won't find anywhere. This is one of its kind here. And the expertise that we have.
Kessia:For sure. So when you're thinking of the potential because it sounds like when you're talking about the center, I can hear it in your voice. It's a very, very exciting and optimistic chapter that the U of A is entering with this center. So when we're looking at the work that's happening with this center before it opened, now and into the future, what's the potential that you're looking to achieve? What's the outcome at the at the end of the day?
Kessia:Even if you're thinking, like, do you have concrete ideas of what you're trying to answer by, say, a twelve month twelve month mark or a five year mark or twenty year mark? Those are just kind of examples of how you might wanna answer that, but feel free to take it wherever you wherever it makes sense.
Amit:Yeah. So see, our vision for the center is basically we say that this center is aimed at bringing the stakeholders from academia, government and community and industry together to develop and advance innovative technologies. I mean, to support policy development, to develop workforce in the hydrogen economy. And, I would say that, you know, our focus is looking at all of these aspects of this. So in terms of the technology developments, a lot of collaboration with industry already going on in terms of developing the, technology in hydrogen, domain and especially along the hydrogen value chain.
Amit:And you think about this. I mean, we have we have been working now with the companies who are in hydrogen production domain, hydrogen transportation storage domain, hydrogen utilization domain. Some of these, projects are already at advanced scale. And so the focus is on moving a lot of these technology, developing and moving these lot these technologies from lab to commercial scale in collaboration with industry and the government. I I would say also is in terms of a lot of focus for also, for us is in terms of looking at also policy development contributing to the policy development.
Amit:So, and then the other pillars that I talked about already in terms of workforce development and outreach. I would say that we have announced this center a few months ago. Our aim is to now, move this and have a large consortium of industry involved in the center. We are working with several industry, but more a larger consortium of industry. And then look at particular challenges which could advance the hydrogen economy not only here in Alberta, but globally.
Amit:And and that's kind of one of the key aspects. The second thing I would say is that, you know, workforce development is key. You know, over the last three to four years, if you get, like, you know, if you talk to the industry, talk to the various stakeholders in this domain, there is a need to train workforce. There's a need to train workforce in this domain. So our focus is now also on developing a lot of these short courses, certificate programs, where we want to train the workforce, upscale some of these, existing, workforce.
Amit:But also, you know, which would be in a little bit longer domain in terms of developing some advanced degrees in hydros. And then the other major thing which has come up in last three to four years, if you think about, is public outreach. That is another key aspect where we wanna focus on because the public has questions in terms of, oh, is it safe to have a hydrogen pipeline going through our community? Is it safe to have a hydrogen tank in our house?
Kessia:Or vehicle on the road that's operating in City Of Edmonton has two buses, I think. Exactly.
Amit:Exactly.
Kessia:And and even, even having pipes or blending into your home. Right? There's That's right. That's right. Realistic or not realistic.
Kessia:There's, there's valid perceptions about safety that that if you don't know and if you're not educated on it and not given the right information, it could seem scary just like everything new and changing can be a little bit threatening. Right? So Yeah. That's right. I'm happy I'm so I guess the reason why I chimed in here is because my for anybody that's listening and doesn't know this, my full time job is storytelling.
Kessia:And I I really liked hearing that part of your work is also addressing that aspect of helping people understand what hydrogen is and its role, not just the science behind it, not just the how do we get it on the roads, how do we get it in the pipes, how do we get industries collaborating, but also how do we make sure that people understand the impact of hydrogen, what it does for our workforce, our industry, our technology, and ultimately our environment. Sounds like this this, this center that you're doing is really important work, and, and I love that it's catching every facet of the value chain just as you were saying. It's it's impressive.
Amit:Yeah. That's right. And and that's kind of, you know, has been the thought process since we started discussing and and contemplated that we need this kind of center which focuses on the whole value chain and answering some of the key question for the, you know, stakeholders, public, and then also the government and industries. So and and that has been our effort. So, you know, it's timely, and and we are very excited about this initiative.
Amit:And this is also an open call to, you know, the industry and the other governments who want to partner with us. Who
Kessia:want Actually, yeah, I was gonna ask you as well, like, what kinds of partnerships with this with this center exist, and what kinds of partnerships are you looking for, really? Like, is there something that's top of mind of the work that you're trying to do immediately that you you need somebody specific in industry or government? Or what's what does that look like?
Amit:Yeah. So for us, you know, as we have launched the center, we do have some existing relationship, but we'd like to expand that relationship further. So this is a kind of, you know, we are looking at the all the stakeholders. So with industry in collaboration in in terms of the technology development in terms of addressing some of their challenges in the hydrogen value chain, we would love to have those partnership. We I mean, of Alberta has, been a, I would say, a leader in having industrial partnership, a lot of applied research that we do.
Amit:And and so, you know, we work with the industry quite a lot in lot of different domain. So I'd love to have more partnership, with the industry, in this domain. And along the hydrogen value chain, we could address any question that they have. In terms of, the other stakeholders, government and all, we also want to focus on being a think tank for the government. In terms of if the government has any question or any challenge, that they would like to be addressed or get some thoughts on, we'd like to help them out too and provide some input.
Amit:So work as a think tank. These think tanks exist in other domain around the world. Here we wanna work as a think tank for both federal government, provincial government and municipal government and and address some of these questions. And then partnership with any other organization and agencies who think that there are issues in terms of, they would like to, get address or, want to find a solution on on the hydrogen value chain, we'd love to have partnership with them.
Kessia:Awesome. Well, I hope that with some of these partnerships and opportunities emerging in the future that the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub can help you with that. Yes. That's definitely one of our big roles and what we hope to do. And, I think that might conclude our interview for now or this this episode, our second episode of the series.
Kessia:So thank you, Amit, so much for joining today. Is there anything else you just you want to leave us with?
Amit:No. I I I'd just like to thank for this opportunity. Thank you for this opportunity and, giving us an opportunity to talk about what we are doing. We're really excited about this new initiative at University of Alberta and and, I'm also very excited about the scale of the people involved in in this initiative. So we could probably, you know, have the capability to address a lot of challenges in the hydrogen value chain.
Amit:So thank you. Thanks a lot.
Kessia:Thanks, Amit. We're really excited about the work that you're doing too, and I hope that I'll get to come see a tour sometime soon Yes. As well.
Amit:Thanks a lot. Bye.
Kessia:That's it for today's episode of hydrogen two point o. If you are looking to learn more about the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy, learn more about the Edmonton region hydrogen hub, or get in touch with us, you can visit hydrogen.ca or send us an email at hello@hydrogen.ca. Also, feel free to follow us on LinkedIn, the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub, to stay up to date on all the news and all the activities happening in our hydrogen economy.