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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (04:06)
Well,
it's funny because you mentioned, you know, to the listener, we when you and I met, we spoke on a panel together at Indiana University and we're there on career day and it's students from the media school. And you mentioned you you bursted a balloon a bit when you were like, I used to have a bunch of entry level editor, like entry level, like scattered about like scuttling about. And now AI does all that.
Lisa Levey (04:36)
Yeah, I mean, in my business, AI is not really doing any of the editing, thank God. Like, I think there's a long way to go before AI has like the capability to handle the kind of like, you know, the making of a television show in the capacity we do. What AI has taken away has like, is kind of the menial work that like a production assistant would do, transcribing, logging, like now we have someone, you know, and they kind of are like, are just
Tom Hootman (04:49)
Mm-hmm.
Transcript sorting, yeah.
Lisa Levey (05:05)
helper with all things, know, like go looking for footage or go doing little things, but you would have, you know, many years ago needed more people like that. And now we just don't need it. So it's good and bad. mean, it makes it easier for me to do my job because like I have access to all this stuff, but it also like hurts my heart that nobody's ever getting like trained to do anything anymore. So, you know, catch 22 always.
Tom Hootman (05:31)
That's a,
it's the training component. There's the, it's the, for lack of a better term, the thing that comes to mind is like the ditch digging, right? You got to get some blisters on your hands and some calluses just rifling through transcripts. And it resonated to me when you said that, when we spoke together, because we never had AI meeting recorders. So it was always like, who's on notes? And my, I'm a shitty note taker.
Lisa Levey (05:42)
Yeah.
same.
Tom Hootman (05:58)
And there
was always someone who took really good notes. now we can take a transcript from a discovery call and from a briefing call before a pitch and drop it into Google Doc and then drop that into AI and say, the brief. And is it perfect? No, but it's fairly on point and you can search within a transcript. so many times when we meet with a prospect, in our business we meet with a prospect, we get the brief, we get account access to all of their Google meta, whatever.
Lisa Levey (06:15)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (06:25)
And then over the course of a week or two, we're building this pitch and you realize how many times we have revisionist history where we're like, no, that's not what they said. I think they said, wait, and now you kind of have a court reporter. So can go back to me like, no, they said this was the budget. This was the goal. Okay, I was wrong. You were right. Let's go.
Lisa Levey (06:33)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like all things like I see the upside in so many ways. But I will be curious sort of like what the future of, you know, content makers like who do what I do is like, you know, there used to be a very clear path up and now it's kind of been decimated a little bit. I mean, the business I'm in has changed so much in the last
you know, five, 10 years, but like the AI component thankfully is not really up to us yet. Like even though there's AI editing and stuff, like I still think it's a ways away before it really catches hopefully my spot, but who knows, you know.
Tom Hootman (07:16)
Yeah.
We're
lucky that way in that we're like through the looking glass a bit. it's just, I'm like, just got AI, it's just got to hold off for like eight more years before it takes my job.
Lisa Levey (07:30)
Hey
I just have
to roll with it. mean, I've been a freelancer my whole career. Like I've never had control over anything. And so at this point, I'm just like another hurdle in the like endless list of hurdles that I've had to deal with. So, you know, we'll see. It's like the good thing about being freelance is like, it sort of takes away your ability to be scared because you're just scared all the time. Like you're just gonna stay
constant state of fear of like, when will they work? When will this be? Will they do this? Like without job security, you're just always in that like weird state. So nothing really phases me at this point. I'm just like, okay, we'll see what happens and I'll just roll with it. And you know, I'm working on my own projects because like it's so important to evolve with content and like traditional television is changing so much. And while I do really enjoy it, like I know it will continue to be harder for me to do what I'm doing.
Tom Hootman (08:13)
Yeah.
Lisa Levey (08:31)
at the pace that I was doing it before. And so, you know, it's up to me to be able to like pivot and find ways to create content in different ways. so, you know, luckily I have a personal project that I'm doing like more for fun. But if it turns into something more financially, that's like a blessing. But since again, I'm used to never knowing when my next thing is coming, like I just am like, I'm just on the ride always.
Tom Hootman (08:55)
Yeah,
you've never been in the machine. You've been in a different machine.
Lisa Levey (08:59)
Yes, I have corporate clients, but I've never been corporate. think like my longest job was at a sports documentary company. And I think I was there like two and a half, three years, but I wasn't staff. Like I was just a permanent freelancer. Like I could have been, you know, me staying on at that company was based on them continuing to have projects for us to work on. And so it wasn't like I ever felt secure or.
or ever had health insurance or any of the benefits, like paid, I've never had paid vacation. Like I've just never had the things that go along with a regular job. People are always like, do you want one? And I'm just like, I don't, I don't even have a frame of reference for it really. So in my head, it sounds nice and comfortable, but on the other hand, it sounds like, like.
Tom Hootman (09:34)
love that.
Lisa Levey (09:50)
claustrophobic and trapping because I very much have the benefit of like starting a project and then finishing it and walking away from it. And so that's been my cycle for so many years that I can't imagine if it was just like, we're going to continue to go to work and keep working on something else. Like it's also like, get new teams, new people, new content. Like I'm just constantly getting the start over. So it would be interesting if I didn't have that, but who knows? You never know what's going to come.
Tom Hootman (10:14)
Yeah.
It's like a blind date that's at least like six months long, right? Like it could be great. It's amazing. You end up like on this blind date for 15 years. I was at my last role in my last company for almost 15 years. It could be horrible. And you're like stuck there looking for the next blind date.
Lisa Levey (10:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I've always been afraid of commitment, ironically, so it's probably not too surprising that I ended up in something like this. Like the minute someone says like real job to me, I'm like, you know, I clench up like, no, would I be able to get out of it if I don't like it? You know, because in my business, like too, if you don't like a job, like you could leave and it won't hinder, you know, getting another job. Really? I mean, we're all just sort of cogs in the wheel. And so even if you
Tom Hootman (10:43)
Me too.
Ew.
Ha!
Lisa Levey (11:07)
you you could like maybe not have a great experience and still potentially get hired again by that team. It just depends, you know, cause the teams are always shifting, the people running things are always shifting. So you just never know.
Tom Hootman (11:19)
Yeah, it's interesting because there's an element of like, what I love that you said is like, I just always live in fear. so when we spoke, was like to primarily the audience was students and their whole, there's a lot of fear in the room because God bless them, you know, to get into their industry now, right? With all of this change and it's moving so fast. There's an element of them, like, how do I get a job and avoid fear? And like there's,
Lisa Levey (11:34)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (11:42)
They're trying to mitigate the, the fight or flight response that they're starting to feel. And there's an element of it that is like the hard truth of like, goodness, that's never going away. Like that never ends. Like that's life. Like.
Lisa Levey (11:45)
Yes.
Yeah,
I mean, there's no such thing as job security, like in any industry, really. So, you know.
Tom Hootman (12:02)
Anyway, I like to say there's not a lot of gold watches in retirement parties nowadays.
Lisa Levey (12:06)
No, no. you know, people, students and other people are always like, you know, what's your work-life balance like? And how do you, and I'm like, I don't know, there is none. I was like, the balance is that I choose to keep doing this. Like that's the balance. Like if I wanted a, you know, a 40 hour week steady job, like I would go after that. And I have made the choice not to. So that's the balance. The balance is my autonomy and making the decision.
Tom Hootman (12:33)
Yeah, I mean, that's you gave some good hard truths and just, mean, it's funny because there were three of us and you were in the middle and they kind of always started on the end and work to you and then work to me. And you, you, I was like, I found myself turning and being like fuck, that's pretty good. That's yeah. Like preach like straight up. Like there was an element of like, no, like work, work life, what? And like job security, what? That is like, it's a good hard truth.
Lisa Levey (12:40)
Yes.
Yes. Yeah.
I mean, I wish somebody would have told me that. Like, if I think about like young me leaving Indiana University and like going to New York with zero clue, like if someone had told me what it was really going to be like, I would have never gone, you know? So it's like always difficult to be honest, but there was also just significantly less information back then anyway. I could, if I...
even if I had wanted to know what it was gonna be like, like I had no tools outside of people telling me in like a handful of photographs, like I really had no clue. So I'm kind of glad I went because I would have talked myself out of it for sure if I knew how crazy it was gonna be. But like all things in life, you just figure it out, you know?
Tom Hootman (13:41)
figured
out before we get too far in.
If your career, your path had a theme song or songs, what would it be? And I ask everyone this question because it's Mixtape Digital, right? So music is a huge part of my fabric. What would that song be and why did you choose it?
Lisa Levey (14:00)
It's, this one is really hard, like, because maybe I am a bit of a music snob, so I wanted some like cool answer, but like, couldn't think of one because I was like, my theme song is just about like, working my ass off. So I was joking that it's like Work Bitch by Britney Spears, because like, that is kind of like, it's like, the pulse is high. And it's like work, work, work, work, work, which is basically what's like my life been like, since I graduated college, like, you better work if you want.
Tom Hootman (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Levey (14:29)
to get anything and like there's no ifs ands, buts about it. So yeah, it's not like the coolest answer, but yeah, I mean, that's basically like, imagine like your workout mix like on 20, like that's my life I feel like in music, just like, it's like jock jams, pumping and just like trying to motivate you to keep going and keep working.
Tom Hootman (14:44)
That's a great choice. No, that's a fancy. Jack Jack jams. Yeah. Damn it. Lisa, I worked at Sam Goody Music land when all the Jack
jams were coming out. So you just like tapped into like a deep nostalgic memory of mine. ⁓
Lisa Levey (14:58)
Yeah, it feels
like that and the deadlines I'm under are so crazy. Like when I'm working, it is like, go, go, go, go, go. Like it is like running a marathon. Like you have no choice but to keep going or else. So yeah, it feels like, yeah, maybe it's like Eye of the Tiger too somewhere in there, just like trying to motivate myself. Like I could do this. I can survive.
Tom Hootman (15:26)
I, ⁓ when I worked for Hanapin Marketing prior to our acquisition, I'm a huge LCD sound system fan and a huge James Murphy fan. And he has a great quote because he's a workaholic is that if I'm working, you're working and I'm always working, so you're always working. And they asked us for a quote for our bio page on the site. And that was the quote I gave. And I got vetoed because they were like, no, you.
I think maybe they just picked a different quote actually and just assigned it to me and I found out like six months later, because very clearly they were like, that doesn't speak to the culture and the work life harmony. And I was like, give the kids something real, come on.
Lisa Levey (16:05)
I know. mean, look, I wish it wasn't like that. You know, like I'm a hard worker and I take pride in it. Do I wish it was less? 100%. But, you know, it is just the way of being a freelancer and being a freelancer in there in media. Like you have to work, you have to work hard. You have deadlines. If you don't meet your deadlines, you're out. Like it is that cutthroat and you have to...
you have to get good at being fast. I sometimes think that's my best skill is just how fast I am because I've just had to be.
Tom Hootman (16:36)
You strike me as someone who you mentioned you've always been freelance and You're not someone who can like just go like you don't just get like so many weeks of paid vacation You strike me as someone who? If you do take a break is is like your moat you're like your engines kind of always on
Lisa Levey (16:47)
Yeah.
I'm pretty good at shutting down. Like, I mean, that is the kind of joy of, you know, being on a television show. It's like you get to the end. Like, it's delivered, it's out, you're done with it. And so you can turn it off so easily. And by the time you're done, you never want to think about it again. You never want to hear about it or see it or watch it. And so I am good at, like, detaching myself. But you are always like, what's next? What's next? You know? So that, like...
Tom Hootman (17:04)
Mm, true.
Lisa Levey (17:24)
For many years I was lucky in that I would get booked enough in advance that I knew like I have a month off and then I'll go to the next one like when Television was booming like I really had a nice situation where I could work nine months and then be like I'm off for two to just deal and become a human being again and have time Now it's like a little bit more stressful because I'm balancing my you know existing freelance job with the other collective which I'm developing so
I at this point in my life, I'm rarely able to shut it off because if I'm not working, like I'm working on the other thing. So that is tough. But the other thing is something that I like love doing. So I don't, I don't know. Like I still love making stuff. I've always been that way. Like I just like the process of making stuff. That's never going to stop for me. So if I'm working on something that's for me in my spare time, it doesn't feel like work. It's actually fun.
I just wish I also had another two days to do nothing on top of that. Like my weekends end up being working, but it's like fun work. So I pack it in for sure, but I don't know. Like it doesn't feel like a chore. It feels, it feels good. And I actually like doing my, you know, my paid job too. I just, you know, I wish there was like,
Tom Hootman (18:36)
Yeah.
Lisa Levey (18:44)
an extra period of time for me to just lay on the couch and do nothing, but I don't get as much of that these days.
Tom Hootman (18:51)
Same, yeah. I mean, but there's joy in it because you love it, right? And yeah, it's a story I tell everyone. People ask me a lot how I'm doing. When you start a company, they're like, how are you doing? Right? And I always tell people that my wife and I, we try to walk every day, although we live in Indiana and it's becoming harder every day. And there was a few months after we launched, she said, I've never seen you work so much. And it was just, then she kind of got, she was kind of like.
Lisa Levey (18:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (19:21)
and you're so happy about it. And it was like, well, yeah, I enjoy it. Like this is, you have control over it, which is different.
Lisa Levey (19:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, mean, getting it's like I don't have a client right now. So for that, like the other collective is me, my business partner. Like we get to decide what we're doing and it's like helping people and it's doing all these things that like not that reality TV doesn't help people, but this is like a personal thing for us and it feels good and we're connecting with people. So it's like it's work, but in that it takes up hours of the day, but it really doesn't feel like that to me.
Tom Hootman (19:37)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I want to talk about the Otherhood Collective because it's it resonates with me a bit. But before we do, I want to ask and I kind of know the answer. I have an answer in mind because I had the pleasure of seeing a room that you were speaking to. You've worked across, I mean Bravo, A &E, MTV. You've produced a ton of shows. What's the one question you get from people, the show that like everyone's like wants to know about all the time?
Lisa Levey (20:20)
It's always Real Housewives. I was on Real Housewives in New Jersey for several years. I did the Housewives of DC in its early inception. And people are the most curious about that. In fact, any Bravo show I do, people are generally most curious because it's very zeitgeist. And Housewives, even if you don't watch it, you know what it is and people just want to know.
what are the women really like? That's what they want to know. And they want to know if it's real or not, which is like the question I get more than anything about what I do in general is just like, is it real or not? Which it is real, you know, like I know people want to believe that it's fake, but it's, it's not like it's just like you and I talking for 45 minutes and just taking the best parts of it and, and condensing it and making it make sense.
making it entertaining and all those things, but you know, it's real. You know, these people are real and yeah, I mean, they're interesting. Like I think they're honestly like working in this business is just a study in like human beings. Like maybe one day I could like teach a sociology class based on just observing human beings at all time. And it's incredibly fascinating. And I always say like people.
are good and bad and they're funny and boring and they're awful and nice. Like everybody is teetering all those parallels at all times and it's the same for the people on these television shows and it's like our job to get all those different like layers packaged in a nice way that people can be excited about so that they can.
Tom Hootman (21:42)
Yeah.
Lisa Levey (21:59)
one week be annoyed by them, one week be rooting for them. That's actually being a human, you know? We're never all just one thing. And people wanna know tons of inside information about these women, of which I signed a very serious NDA, so I can't say really much. they've all been lovely to work with. Like I just said, it's been great and awful and challenging and wonderful.
Tom Hootman (22:13)
Very strict NDA.
Lisa Levey (22:22)
jobs are, you know?
Tom Hootman (22:24)
Yeah, the NDA thing's funny because I, ⁓ we got a handful of episodes in and I asked my first leading question to someone who was like, ⁓ we're to have to edit this because I can't answer that. And I was like, wow, yeah. NDAs it's fascinating to me because I've obviously real housewives. You mentioned real housewives and the entire room when we were speaking was like hands in the air, like perked up. And I, I'm not a huge unscripted TV fan.
Lisa Levey (22:35)
Yeah
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (22:51)
I don't have time for TV necessarily. don't want to be one of those people, you, who works in television. But I just, don't want to be one of people, I don't watch TV, but I just don't have time. ⁓
Lisa Levey (22:54)
We need their honestly.
I mean,
I don't either, like, I work in this business, but I'm not really watching any of that in my spare time.
Tom Hootman (23:08)
Like, you know, it's the thing where like when a chef at a wonderful restaurant goes home, you'd probably a lot of them you'd be disgusted at what they eat because the last thing they want to do is get out and like get the knives back out. They're hovered over the trash can eating mac and cheese. And it's like I just don't.
Lisa Levey (23:15)
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.
Yeah. Also,
if I watch it, I'm like looking at how they did it. Like I'm just like the cogs. Yeah, like I'm like, ⁓ look at that. They did that. Like I like to see how they pulled it off more than I like watching it for entertainment sake, you know?
Tom Hootman (23:29)
judgmental.
Yeah.
Well, and another component too that you mentioned, I think you mentioned this in our conversation or maybe on the panel was that yes, it's kind of it's it is unscripted, but the sheer volume of footage that you take at like a party and then have to parse through like, there's an element of like you can make, you can almost make anyone's life more interesting because people don't realize like, you didn't just record one camera for 30 minutes, like
Lisa Levey (23:50)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (24:06)
This is to get a 30 minute or an hour long episode. There are, can't imagine the amount of footage you have to find or film to edit.
Lisa Levey (24:14)
Yeah,
it's a lot. It's a lot. like in any of these, I mean, in housewives or any ensemble shows, like these are people with real relationships that are navigating each other and like you put them in a room together, like stuff happens and yeah, and we do film a lot. And, you know, I'm the person that's like watching all that footage and, you know.
Condensing it in a way and like we go through many steps and there's checks and balances and people giving notes and you know lots of feedback and it eventually lands, you know where it's gonna land, but it's It it's a yeah, it's it's like finding the little treasures in the pile I mean, there's plenty of stuff that's boring like like any conversation like people talking about the weather or people talking about their dogs or people talking, you know
humans are humans, know, but sometimes people get in a real interesting conversation and it's our job to, find the good story, you know.
Tom Hootman (25:14)
Yeah, I mean, when we're in discovery calls with clients or prospects, we see the same thing. You don't know. Sometimes you're like, tell me what you don't like about what's going on. And you get one. That's all you say. And for 30 minutes or 45 minutes, they run. And other times, you know immediately what you're dealing with. And you're like, OK. And I always we bring like, I don't know shit about shit, but I bring a subject matter expert with me because you don't know if it's going to go high level. I wish that we were.
wish we were more aggressive or like vague words or if it's going to be like a very account specific, here's what I don't like about my Google ads. In which case I hand it to the person who's the expert because you just people are people and you just don't know until you meet someone which direction they are going to go in or if they had a bad day, it's early, it's late, they run into another meeting, they're distracted. And sometimes you come out of these calls and the transcript sucks from AI and you're like, okay.
Lisa Levey (25:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (26:11)
We need to build a pitch on this, folks. Like, what?
Lisa Levey (26:13)
Yeah. Yeah. mean, it's, it's the producers, like my job and the other producers, like we, we have no judgment on the people who are, who are screening and who are editing. Like our job is to have no judgment. Like the minute we make our own opinions about anyone, is the minute we can't tell a good story, like it's always our job to be objective and to like see the forest through the trees. And you know, I think that's made me like,
a very patient and empathetic person. And in my real life, I think like it's easier to have conversations because I can't make snap judgments. Like you can't, of course you want to sometimes, you know, but then you find moments where they're like honest and beautiful and vulnerable. And you're like, that's right. Like this is a full human being who's like living life.
So it doesn't matter what I think, you know, it matters who they are. So yeah, we just do our best and you know, I'm lucky. Like I've done so many different shows. So it's like some are sillier than others. Some are more serious. Like, but people are people, you know, and I just like people. So I just, I just go with it. You know, I don't, yeah, I really don't have an opinion about anyone who's on who I'm, who I'm editing. I'm just there to like,
Tom Hootman (27:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa Levey (27:31)
find the story. Like it's, kind of easy to separate. The longer you do it, the easier it is to separate yourself and your own thoughts from all of it, you know.
Tom Hootman (27:39)
Yeah, you're like a doctor in that way. Doctors are numb to it, numb to it, exactly like a doctor. Because you're in there, you're gonna get examined for something and you're like, okay, here we go. And they're like, just shut up and take your shirt off, who cares, right? Like I see this, I'm gonna see this 48 times today. The last, it's just like, you're numb to it after a while.
Lisa Levey (27:42)
yeah, just like a doctor. Saving lives.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah,
it's also just not helpful to live life that way, like making snap judgments. So I am grateful that doing what I've done has taught me to really like think more about like who that person really is, not just like take them at face value, you know? No, no, no. I mean, I still do it, but I just take a beat, you know?
Tom Hootman (28:17)
Stop it, you make me feel like a bad person. I'm gonna keep fucking with you.
So everyone, so we talked about how everyone asks about Real Housewives and everyone wants to know, like you probably get.
Lisa Levey (28:28)
Mm.
Tom Hootman (28:32)
Everyone in any career gets the same five questions all the time. I'm going to give you an opportunity. What's the what's like your greatest hit that you're most proud of in your career that no one asks you about? Like just the thing that you're like, fuck, I fucking nailed that.
Lisa Levey (28:35)
Okay.
It's so hard. I think like the body of the work is what's really challenging is like no one acknowledges the work that goes into making it. They just like judge the product, which I think is probably all things in life. So like. know, I'm like I can't think of one thing or show that I'm most proud of. Like I'm just so proud as a whole for like the whole the process.
Like the process of making these things is so hard and I know what it's like for the teams and for me and like all the people like putting in so much blood sweat and tears to make this thing. When it's done, everyone's like, ooh, what are these people like? what, you know, it's all just like shiny and like a, like a little pet and everyone's so excited about the finished product. And no one ever asked me like about how hard it is to get, to get it there.
People often ask me like what's your favorite show that you've ever done? But like there is no such thing because sometimes like the content is the thing I love the most but it might have been the worst show I ever worked on because the team or the client or whatever the case like there are things like in terms of what I'm maybe there are shows where the finished product I'm like, I guess I'm more proud of that because it came out good but like I don't know you can't even really judge it that way because
I don't have control over any of that. Like we're all just part of the process. And so yes, everyone always wants to know like about the show. No one wants to know about how the show gets made. And I'm very proud about how the shows get made. I'm proud of everybody who puts everything into it. Cause it really is incredibly hard. Like it is a really hard job and it's a lot of hours and sacrifice and it's, it is like.
Tom Hootman (30:15)
Mm-hm.
Yeah
Lisa Levey (30:38)
once you get it, you feel so good. You're like, we figured it out and we got it, it worked. And then sometimes like the clients change it and you don't like it or something happens or things get cut for time. So it's like, I never judge the finished product. Like I the process and I'm really proud of the process. Like I can't think of, yeah, people ask me all the time, what's your favorite? And it's like, I definitely don't have a favorite show that I've ever done.
Tom Hootman (30:42)
Yeah.
You can't, yeah.
I don't have a favorite client. People always ask me who's the most difficult client. There's a huge difference there because we've had clients that we start working with and it's flamed out immediately. We just had the wrong expectations throughout the process and there was just no clarity. Those are impossible clients, but they tend to flame out quick and they're gone. Some of the hardest clients are the clients that I've enjoyed the work the most on.
but they've been demanding and difficult and they're not personable. It's all business to them. And it sucks because you're like, want to build this relationship, but at the same time, they're all work and you can work with them for years. So like, are they demanding? Are they difficult? Yeah. But would I trade them for one of the ones that flames out? Fuck no, absolutely not.
Lisa Levey (31:31)
Yeah, always.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, I'm just proud of I'm always proud of the work like when these shows end, you're just like I did it. Because it is it's incredibly high pressure. It's incredibly stressful. It's long hours. It's you know, you're responsible for a lot. You're you're telling story like there's so much that goes into it. And so I just feel like proud that I've
gotten to do all of it. They all made it. I guess some never do. I've done things that we started and they went away, the client pulled out or whatever. if you can start it and finish it, you always feel really proud, regardless of how it turns out, ironically.
Tom Hootman (32:13)
I want that.
That's wonderful.
I love that. I want to talk, I want to pivot to the Otherhood Collective. Tell me about, tell me about your, I don't want to call it a side project, but your business, right? Because you do have, you have a two prong approach to your career, right? You've been a producer, but then the Otherhood Collective is like a huge part of your life. So tell me about it.
Lisa Levey (32:39)
Yes, yes, it is a business, yes.
Yeah, I mean, very long story short, you know, I, my husband and I wanted kids and we tried for many, many, years and I had quite a long infertility battle and, you know, inevitably it didn't work. And I was like, where are all the people who like, it didn't work for, because there wasn't, it's like, there was, there was resources for all this stuff, but not in a way that
was like helpful. was very much like people who like knew they didn't want kids who were like, we're child free. And then it was like people who couldn't have kids. And it was kind of like branded in this sort of like way that I was having a hard time connecting to. And it just felt very like black and white. And I was like, there's nothing about my experience that's black and white. Like it has been a ride and a roller coaster of like everything. And so.
you know, and I'm a documentary nerd and I was like looking for stories and I would go on all these like Reddit doom scrolls and I was like reading blurbs and things people said, but I was like, this just like, isn't enough. Like I was like, I just want to know more about like how people landed where they got to regardless of the end result. And I had a friend of 20 plus years who also didn't have kids and I knew that she had
issues and we had talked about it a little bit off and on but we were very like in our way of just like joking about it or putting it aside like it was something that was very private and I was between shows and she was between jobs and we were like maybe there's something here that we could do.
And so I was like, let's just go for it. Like, I think there's good stories to tell here. Let's like, give it a shot. And we interviewed a couple people, her and I interviewed each other and it was very clear immediately, like that there was something special to just like telling these stories in a way that was like a little bit more substantial and less like comments, you know, on a post. But I also was very aware that people don't watch anything for more than like five minutes.
Tom Hootman (34:47)
And let us know in below.
you
Thank ⁓
Lisa Levey (34:56)
So like
people kept saying, make a documentary. I was like, I don't actually think that's the way. Like, I think it's better if we can just sort of like tell stories in a way that people can take in and watch in the way that people watch things. And so we made a conscious decision to, you know, try to keep these five minutes or less. And the idea was like, you can go to our YouTube page and doom scroll videos of people talking about their experiences, you know?
Tom Hootman (35:09)
It takes some time and it comes to some things.
Yeah, I mean, I think that.
Lisa Levey (35:25)
Satiate that same box because it's like people don't want to really participate in the conversation, but they want to hear, you know.
Tom Hootman (35:33)
Yeah,
there's an element of the video component. I've doom scrolled Reddit on a million different topics and it kind of turns into the web MD of like whatever you're going through, whether it's like a remodeling project or it's a personal struggle or it's loss and grief. They have all different variables of doom scrolling. I'm like, yeah, this sucks. You're fucked. Right? Like this is bad. And you kind of get into that doom scrolling mentality. But what I love about what you do is the
the video component of for something that personal, there's a connection that comes from video that you don't get. And you mentioned it in a comment or someone's a post on a subreddit that it becomes impersonal when it's a post. short form video is perfect in my opinion, because it's a way to hear a story, connect with someone. But also you're right. Like it allows people to move to the next story.
without getting into like an hour and a half of video doom scrolling.
Lisa Levey (36:35)
Yeah,
and it was like so important us that it just wasn't so niche because that was like the thing that had turned me off so much is that we were all like, kids or no kids. And I come from a blended family. Like I wasn't raised by, you know, like my biological father. And I just was like, there are so many different ways that family looks like. And it's so weird that we're just sort of like putting you in two boxes. so, and I, didn't want to alienate.
people to be like, that's a space for people without kids because then we're just sort of like contributing to what's already going on, which is that people making tons of assumptions about people who don't have kids and like why and who they are just like people are doing that with moms. And so we just were like, we need to create a space where like all these kinds of topics of other around family are represented. And we've had mothers and stepmothers and
you know, women who have kids who just have different like thoughts about how they came to it. Women who don't want them, who haven't been able to have them. Like we've had men too. you know, it's, I mean, I feel incredibly lucky to get to like meet all these people and hear their stories. And everybody always says like, ⁓ I don't have a good story, but it's like, we all have a story. And it's like the thing I wanted so badly when I was struggling. And I just feel really lucky that
people have like a resource now for it. And we have big dreams for like more content and collaborations and things. And yeah, so far it's been going really well. And like the overwhelming thing is that people say it's like helpful, which is like all we could ask for, you know? Yeah.
Tom Hootman (38:11)
That's all that matters. That's
all that matters. And I mean, I think that you're right. Like, everyone has a story. And it's interesting because I've had friends who have wanted to start a family, I've firsthand, like, very good friends of mine, seen that struggle. Like, and then that arc of, like, investment and just, doing everything they can, and it's expensive as hell.
Lisa Levey (38:28)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (38:36)
and then coming to a place where they're at now. And then there's, it's a very personal topic. My wife and I don't have kids, but by choice. And it's always, I remember when we first got married and didn't, no one shut up for 10 years about like, it's become a colloquialism and a conversation starter that's uncouth in my opinion. When are we gonna have our grandchild? like it's shit like that. That is, ⁓
Lisa Levey (38:55)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (39:02)
I was never, I'm not easily offended, right? And I'm not offended by it, but also like I'm dark humor, but like, I just want to shut them down because like, this is not for us. And it puts people in this unique position where this is family, right? It's like family asks, if family, people pry and they don't realize they're prying, which is unfortunate for them because they're just trying to make conversation, but it's family does it.
Lisa Levey (39:13)
Yeah.
Mm.
Tom Hootman (39:29)
the attendant at the post office does it, like, it's it becomes the weather, I think because of the, the script that like we're kind of ingrained with about like a path in life, that there are so many non traditional paths to take. And you have to be cognizant of that and respect that.
Lisa Levey (39:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think like one of the best things that's come out of this is, you know, people who haven't really thought about like what my life is like or what other people's lives are like in that way are like, wow, I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know that when you're the person who always like has to stay late at work because you don't have kids, like how unfair that is. Or I didn't know like that.
friendships can like dissolve because like they can't find a way to communicate about these things or that families can say things or do things that are hurtful. You know, it's like, it's just, it's just like whether you have kids or not and the how and the when and all this stuff around it is so important. And it's like a bummer that it's become so kind of niche and that like, it's just like, do you or don't you?
Tom Hootman (40:30)
and
Lisa Levey (40:41)
Like if someone wanted me to explain like how I ended up not having kids like in a paragraph, like I couldn't do it. You know, it's just, were so many things that went into it and there's still so many things that we're navigating now that we don't have kids that I wouldn't have known. And people have said like, well now I'm going to approach someone at work differently or I'm going to approach my friend differently. You know, even my in-laws said like, I didn't know, you know, stuff like that have been said to you. And I'm like, yeah, it's, it's hard.
Tom Hootman (40:54)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Levey (41:11)
And it's also hard being a mother or a parent or being a step-parent or adoptive parent. Like it's all hard and we all should just give each other a little bit more space, like understand each other, but that's kind of not the world we live in. so having a place where people can just like watch it, I think that's ideal, you know? it's, yeah, it's like, we're very lucky that people have all said.
I've no one's ever asked me that before. Like the one thing everybody says when I interview them is no one's ever asked me that before. Which is like heartbreaking, but true. And you know, my business partner, Sarah and I, when we interviewed each other, like we had not talked about any of that and we're like best friends. It just, it's just not an easy topic to navigate, you know.
Tom Hootman (41:46)
That's amazing.
Yeah.
It's not at all. And you had mentioned it's Thanksgiving week. you had mentioned, we talked about this before we recording, my wife is the oldest and I'm the youngest and all of our siblings have kids. And there is an element of, and I get it, like I don't blame anyone. It's hard not to get frustrated, but also you mentioned about work. Like you don't have kids, you can work late. There's an element of like, you kind of start to feel a bit like you're always, that people treat you like you.
you have total flexibility. And I would feel this, and it started with Thanksgiving holiday because we, she's from two hours north and I'm from three and a half hours, she's from two hours south and I'm from three and a half hours north. And they would try to split us up. Are you coming home for Thanksgiving? And it's like hilarious because I, like I haven't, that's not my home. I haven't lived there in 30 years. But also there's an element of like, well, you can, you don't have kids. What's so, just get up here. And that's what made us decide like,
I mean, it's very, Thanksgiving is our favorite holiday. It wasn't, we're not a food family, right? But it's like, we board up the windows, we barricade the door, and like, we don't talk to anybody for two and a half days. And it's an element of like, this is my family. And whether it's just my wife and I and Orson and Olive, the dogs, or whether it's one child, or whether it's just friends and family, or friendsgiving, like this is my family.
Lisa Levey (43:08)
But yeah.
Tom Hootman (43:23)
And it's what you make it versus the traditional meaning sometimes.
Lisa Levey (43:28)
Yeah, I mean, I'm learning more and more. Like, I always kind of didn't think there was such thing as traditional, but now I'm learning even more and more. Like, no, like even the most on paper traditional is not traditional in any way. And yeah, I'm really excited to keep telling these stories. Like my partner, Sarah is sort of like the marketing genius and I'm the one who's, you know, has all the content ideas and like, and I think.
Tom Hootman (43:37)
No.
production genius.
Lisa Levey (43:55)
Yeah, it's been it's been awesome. You know, it's like if Who knows what will come but like to be able to tell these like stories of people I don't know. It's just so gratifying like I wish it You know could be the thing I'm doing full-time and hopefully, you know will be but yeah like even if nothing came out of it except somebody feeling like a little bit more seen than they were before like I'll take it because I would have loved that so yeah, it's exciting and
The best part is it's like just getting people to speak about something that they're just like, so many people have been like, well here's my thing. And I'm like, whoa, I didn't even know. And what a shame that we never talked about it, you know? And my husband too, like he had such a different experience being a man and it's been good. Like we're trying to get more men involved because I feel even it's even more difficult for him in a lot of ways. I think cause like, it's just not something that's ever.
discussed at all between him and his friends, you know, and that breaks my heart for a different set of reasons, you know. So yeah, it's just, at some point we gotta just start opening up a little bit more. And if I can facilitate some of that for people, I'll keep doing it.
Tom Hootman (45:06)
You are, and I love it. Thank you very much. Where can people find you? Otherhood Collective?
Lisa Levey (45:08)
Whoa, thank you for sharing. yeah,
otherhoodcollective.com is our website. We're on YouTube at Otherhood Collective. We're on TikTok, Instagram, all the things, LinkedIn, all at the Otherhood Collective. So it's like, yeah, check it out. mean, it's like, it is a nice little doom scroll. I don't like calling it a doom scroll because it's not, it's not negative like that, but I don't know if you got a couple, my friend.
was on the train the other day and she's like, I just watched like five and I just felt like better about life. And she's a mom with two kids, has a completely different experience. And she's like, I felt so seen in all of that too. And I was like, love it, that's great. So yeah, people can take a peek and see if anything resonates with them.
Tom Hootman (45:52)
That's wonderful. Lisa, thank you for making time for me today. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful to meet you on the panel. It was fantastic talking today, this morning. Earliest podcast recording I've ever had.
Lisa Levey (45:57)
Cheers!
my God, thank you so much. I do have like to go to my regular job. So it's hard for me to squeeze in time during the day, but it was, I always welcome getting to talk to fellow Hoosiers and you know, it's like that day is so special when I get to meet everybody and yeah, it's like, it's so lovely. Yes, yes. Hopefully I can just keep, keep going that we can keep scaring the shit out of kids. No, I just.
Tom Hootman (46:19)
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing you again next year that day. Awesome.
Keep scaring the shit out of kids. If I could just
keep scaring the shit out of kids, job well done. Thanks, Lisa. I appreciate you.
Lisa Levey (46:31)
Yes.
No problem. Thank you.