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The Life of And podcast is for high-achieving women and working parents who are ready to stop living a life of “have to” and start designing a life they actually want. It’s a space where we talk honestly about the things we’re often afraid to admit — even to ourselves. The exhaustion. The ambition. The loneliness. The joy. The tension of wanting more without losing yourself in the process.
If you’re in the thick of it — feeling stretched, tired, hopeful, driven — this is your invitation to take a breath, get real, and find your way back to your own Life of And.
[00:00:00] Brian Kavicky: They're I am phrases. So I am smart, I have good ideas. My ideas, when challenged, means people want to know more. I am good at coming up with ideas. I am this. It's not I will, it's I am. Because the I am says, "Well, if this is how I actually am, this is what I'll do
[00:00:19] Tiffany Sauder: I'm Tiffany Sauder, entrepreneur, wife, mom, to four girls and a woman figuring it out just like you. Come on, let's go build your life of, and
[00:00:29] Tiffany Sauder: If you've ever left a meeting knowing exactly what you wanted to say, but found yourself saying nothing, then this episode is definitely one you should listen to. If you've thought to yourself, "Why am I not getting the attention I feel like I need? I'm doing so much hard work at work," this is an episode that you should listen to.
[00:00:46] Tiffany Sauder: If you've thought before, "Oh, I've asked for a price, I've said this number, but I don't actually get what I need," and you've heard that's too high, then this episode is also one that you should listen to. You are not alone. These are moments that have happened to so many of us, and I think you're gonna be surprised that the answer isn't always just be more confident.
[00:01:04] Tiffany Sauder: There are some real mechanics that we can learn to be prepared for these moments. I'm Tiffany Sauder, and this is Life Of And. And today we're digging into the questions that I hear most from women navigating the world of achievement, the ones they don't always say out loud, and what it actually takes to lead and to sell, the ones that happen in the room when nobody's watching.
[00:01:22] Tiffany Sauder: And I brought in the person I trust most. This is who I often call when I'm going through these moments, and we're gonna work through them together. Brian Kavicky has been my mentor for years. He's a sales and leadership coach at Lushin and one of my most trusted advisors. And today we're gonna work through them together.
[00:01:37] Tiffany Sauder: Welcome back to the studio, Brian.
[00:01:39] Brian Kavicky: Yep.
[00:01:39] Tiffany Sauder: Before we dive into all of these, I've curated a list of, like, eight questions or so that I've pulled from conversations from women that just, like, are in this season of needing to lead, lead themselves, sell something, lead a team, and they get frustrated with some things that I think we believe can have some maybe gender dynamics to it.
[00:02:00] Tiffany Sauder: So the, the, like, hundred-pound gorilla in the room is like, "Why, Tiffany, are you bringing in a man to have a conversation with this again?" It's because this feels super counterintuitive, and I don't wanna put you in a place or my audience to be like, "He's just mansplaining to us. Like, this is stupid." So let me tell you guys why I've done this.
[00:02:19] Tiffany Sauder: Brian's client base is, like, over 80% women. Is that correct? Yeah. And you've been doing this for over 20 years. So as it relates to data points, Brian has done a ton of this helping and coaching women and observing patterns in what and how it is that we behave and react, and oftentimes we are selling into male-dominated environments.
[00:02:41] Tiffany Sauder: And so you see this tension play out. Is that fair to say?
[00:02:45] Brian Kavicky: Yes.
[00:02:45] Tiffany Sauder: So that's number one. Number two, Brian is the one who has coached me through these moments. we started working together when I was pregnant with Ainsley. She just turned 15. So literally 15 years ago, where I am selling into industries like manufacturing and RV and industrial equipment and these, these industries where they are not used to seeing a 20-something pregnant woman waltzing into the room.
[00:03:08] Tiffany Sauder: And so I lived this tension, and you coached me through many of those moments. And I was talking to a young woman the other day who's kinda challenging me on having you on the feed so much, and she's like, "I, I just, I kinda wanna hear from women." And I'm like, "All I know to do is to share the people who have helped me make millions of dollars, generate wealth, sell business, build businesses, create opportunities for the people that I love and care about.
[00:03:32] Tiffany Sauder: The only thing I know to do is to take people who I know how to do that and share that with people who want it too, and you're that person." So that's my pitch - Okay ... on why we're here. Are you pumped?
[00:03:44] Brian Kavicky: I'm pumped.
[00:03:45] Tiffany Sauder: When I walked- Tough
[00:03:46] Brian Kavicky: topic.
[00:03:46] Tiffany Sauder: Tough topic, I know. I'm more excited than you are, I feel like. I walked into the studio today and I said, "Brian, I feel so insecure about our relationship.
[00:03:54] Tiffany Sauder: I've texted you like five times and you haven't even like thumbs'd up it." And he's like, "There was no question." I was like, " What do you mean there's no question? You could be like, 'Got it. Super. Love ya.' Anything. Any of the above would work." So, you know, we're living in the tension in our- Yes ... own professional relationship, so.
[00:04:13] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. Ready to start?
[00:04:15] Brian Kavicky: Yes.
[00:04:16] Tiffany Sauder: Are you pumped?
[00:04:17] Brian Kavicky: Yeah.
[00:04:17] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. My excited face and Brian's excited face look decidedly different always. Okay. Question number one: I've been told I am too direct, and I've also been told I'm too soft, sometimes by the same person. What is actually happening and what, if anything, can I do about it?
[00:04:36] Brian Kavicky: the key to that question is sometimes by the same person So if you think about that feedback, why would the same person say you're too direct or too soft? they're not communicating what the real issue is. They're saying, "There's something about how you're communicating with me that I don't like or doesn't resonate with me," but the only words that I know how to use are direct and soft.
[00:05:02] Brian Kavicky: Mm. And they're applying that to the context. So, direct could also be clear. That person can say, "Wow, that was really direct," 'cause it was clear. Maybe they didn't like the clarity.
[00:05:14] Tiffany Sauder: Mm.
[00:05:14] Brian Kavicky: they could also say, "Well, you're too soft," because they wish you would've been more assertive, but the only word that they know how to use is soft.
[00:05:23] Brian Kavicky: Mm-hmm. Because that, that's the word that they associate with that. So when you're getting feedback from somebody, there's two ways to hear feedback. One is there's the person who's giving you the feedback for your benefit, and they're giving it to you as a gift, and they're working to make you better.
[00:05:41] Brian Kavicky: that is always, "Hey, I... This is what I need to say, but I don't know how to say it." So all the context that I just gave- Mm-hmm ... of direct and soft, if they're giving you that feedback because they're invested in helping you, they just don't know the words.
[00:05:54] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:54] Brian Kavicky: The other type of feedback is critical feedback, and it sounds like criticism.
[00:05:58] Brian Kavicky: It sounds like your critical mom or dad telling you you did a bad job or whatever those things, and that stings a little. that is not meant for you. That is meant for them, and typically when they give that feedback, it's a mirror. So when, when they say, "You're too direct," they're saying, "I'm being t-" I mean, think of that.
[00:06:18] Brian Kavicky: Mm-hmm. They're saying, "You're too direct." Well, that's pretty direct. That is a mirrored statement where they're saying, "I'm protecting myself here, but I'm gonna mirror this on you," because they got that feedback or something happened with them, or somebody saying, "You're too soft." I could just hear a guy saying that to a woman going, "You're too soft."
[00:06:36] Brian Kavicky: Well, that sounds like my dad said that to me. Mm-hmm. Like, "You're too soft. Stop crying." it's that critical feedback. That is not meant for you. That is always self-protection. So it's, it's knowing what is this person doing? Are they doing this for me, or are they doing this for themselves? Where is it coming from?
[00:06:53] Brian Kavicky: And then based on that, how do I filter it?
[00:06:55] Tiffany Sauder: So once I've discerned that, whether it's someone who is really wanting to ad- help me develop and maybe advocating for me from a career perspective and they want me to win, it's just they weren't very maybe, fluent- Yes ... in what it is that they said to me versus that who's just sort of trying to...
[00:07:12] Tiffany Sauder: It f- it feels maybe a little dismissive when someone's being critical of you or maybe very targeted. What are the ways that we can respond in those moments to defuse it, change it, seek clarity, shift someone who's being critical to, I, I don't know.
[00:07:28] Brian Kavicky: So go to the word discern. The easiest way to discern is have you o- have you observed them doing the thing they're criticizing you for.
[00:07:37] Brian Kavicky: if they're a very direct person and they're being critical of you for it, then you go, "Okay, this isn't real feedback."
[00:07:43] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:43] Tiffany Sauder: when you- So then you just let it lay?
[00:07:44] Brian Kavicky: Well, you can let it lay, or you can say the next thing, which is, what do I do? You can say, " How would I have handled that differently?"
[00:07:51] Brian Kavicky: Or, "What would it sound like if I was less direct?" Or you always, w- whenever you get feedback, you want evidence and examples for what that would've been and where it showed, show, show up. so they have to be able to say, "This is where I saw it. This is what I would've done differently. This is what it would've s- might've sounded like from you."
[00:08:11] Brian Kavicky: Something, they have to give you that to a degree. And people who are giving you real feedback, they normally know, "Here's what it, I wish it was," as they're doing that. Mm-hmm. But they won't always know to tell you that, 'cause they don't wanna tell you what to do.
[00:08:23] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:24] Brian Kavicky: They wanna say, "Hey, that was a little soft in there."
[00:08:26] Brian Kavicky: But as soon as you go, " "Well, what should I have said or what should I have done that would've made that less soft?" Mm-hmm. "Well, here's an example-" Mm-hmm ... blah, blah, blah. And then you go, "Okay, that, that's workable. I can do something with that. I appreciate that feedback." Yeah.
[00:08:39] Brian Kavicky: Excellent. And, and people that are being critical won't have an answer.
[00:08:44] Tiffany Sauder: in the solving you discern it, really. They're kind of connected.
[00:08:46] Brian Kavicky: They're kind of connected. Mm-hmm. 'Cause if, if they're like, "Well, you were really direct." "Well, what would be less direct?"
[00:08:51] Brian Kavicky: "Well, I don't know. It just felt like it." Mm-hmm. That's the kind of answer you get is, "I don't know. Just be less," like where you're like, "I can't use that." Mm-hmm. That's because the feedback was never meant for you.
[00:09:01] Tiffany Sauder: When you come up against a person like that that's maybe, I don't know, a, a colleague or someone who's over you who you f- discern is not really in my court and is really trying to be critical, not developing of me, do you just have to, I don't know, accept it or get out of the way?
[00:09:17] Tiffany Sauder: Like, what does that look like? 'Cause I do think some women are navigating that, where it's like, I literally feel like a ball of con- of confusion. I want to be excellent at this. I want to present myself well, but I'm getting these mixed signals from people that I don't feel like I can just vulnerably open myself up and be like, "Hey, what do you think I should do?"
[00:09:35] Tiffany Sauder: Because then they're gonna think I'm stupid too, is I think how it can feel.
[00:09:39] Brian Kavicky: But people who have that behavior are sniffing out that insecurity in that moment, and they're leveraging it because their mindset comes from a place of security. The only, the only person that gives critical feedback is someone who has low self-esteem, low self-image, is not confident.
[00:09:55] Brian Kavicky: Mm-hmm.If you have confidence and know who you are and all those things- you don't walk around being critical of people. You walk around giving them feedback or keeping your mouth shut and going, "Ah, they don't need that right now." You're not... you're in a no-harm state, but somebody that's being critical- is basically saying, "I'm going to protect myself by making you feel less, so I feel better." And so there's not a lot to do except to look at them and go, "My... I feel kind of bad for them." Like, maybe work to build their security or make them feel better about something and focus your attention on that.
[00:10:30] Brian Kavicky: But it, it does require a little check, like, oh, I got this critical feedback, and I know this person is- Mm-hmm ... not doing this in my benefit to go, " Well, I feel bad for them." Mm-hmm. 'Cause in the moment, you feel bad for yourself.
[00:10:42] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah, that's exactly right. I remember working through that, some of you, like, ' cause we...
[00:10:46] Tiffany Sauder: I was in the marketing services business, so you've spent all this time on this work, and you're like, like, "Ah," do you like it? And some people, no matter what I put in front of them- Right ... would hate it.
[00:10:56] Brian Kavicky: Yes.
[00:10:56] Tiffany Sauder: And you internalize that intellectually, personally, emotionally, and You would ask me, "Well, is it true?
[00:11:04] Tiffany Sauder: Like, is it true that the work is terrible? Is it true that it's wrong?" And I would be like, "No. Like, here's all the things I learned, and here's what I know, and h- here's what I would do." And he's like, "Well, would you spend your own money on that?" I'm like, "100%." And I would, like, go on. You're like, "Well, it's not your problem."
[00:11:18] Tiffany Sauder: I'm like, "Well, it is my problem 'cause these people won't accept it." It's like you can't make them do something they don't want to do, and the work you're t- you're saying the w- they're saying the work is bad, and you're saying the work is good, the work must be good.
[00:11:28] Brian Kavicky: I, but I remember-
[00:11:29] Tiffany Sauder: Is that wrong?
[00:11:30] Brian Kavicky: No, no, no.
[00:11:31] Brian Kavicky: I re- Is
[00:11:31] Tiffany Sauder: that the same situation?
[00:11:32] Brian Kavicky: It's the same situation, and I remember 'cause you, you came away with having to have the courage to say Honestly, I don't care what you think 'cause you're not the prospect. And that's where you got that line was from- Yeah ... those moments where you're like, "Well, I don't care what you think."
[00:11:47] Brian Kavicky: But that was a hard thing for you to say- Mm-hmm ... in that room until you're like, "Oh, well, that feedback is not feedback to, to make it right. That's feedback to make it wrong." Yeah. "And I have to, I have to come at that for what it is."
[00:11:59] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And, and also there were times when clients were incredibly gracious and incredibly patient and helped me level up and get smarter.
[00:12:07] Tiffany Sauder: So it is those things where you, like, you have to ask yourself, "But is that true? Are other people saying that? Could I defend what it is that I said or whatever?" So, okay. We'll sort of stay in this double standard world here for a minute. "I've been told I need to be more visible, but every time I try, I'm worried about coming across as self-promotional.
[00:12:25] Tiffany Sauder: How do women navigate the line between advocating for themselves and being seen as ambitious in, like, a bad way?"
[00:12:32] Brian Kavicky: ambition shows up in behavior. Self-promotion shows up in, posture and the words that you use.
[00:12:41] Tiffany Sauder: ambition shows up in your behavior. the, this whole- Mm-hmm
[00:12:45] Brian Kavicky: self-promotion shows up in your words and in your posture.
[00:12:49] Tiffany Sauder: Oh.
[00:12:50] Brian Kavicky: So people that are worried about posturing will actually accidentally posture, and that's where they start to get feedback. Like, "I need you to be more visible." And so they'll show up and they'll go, "I'll be visible. I'll talk more in a meeting.
[00:13:04] Brian Kavicky: I'll do this." But it's all what's coming out of their mouth instead of what's their behavior in that meeting. How are they showing up? Are they saying things that they're not used to? They just go, "I need to make an impression." And that shows up of, "I'm trying to control how you feel to me." And that is self-promotion.
[00:13:21] Brian Kavicky: Now, fact is the dividing line. I am not self-promoting if I am stating fact. If I say, "I won an award," that's fact. That's not self-promotion. If I say, "I win awards all the time. I'm just an award winner," just in my mind like that, you can tell that's like self-promotion. Oh.
[00:13:39] Tiffany Sauder: I was getting uncomfortable. Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:42] Tiffany Sauder: I win awards all the time.
[00:13:44] Brian Kavicky: But, but it... That's where self-promotion is. So the, the key to getting through that is take that feedback and say, "There's something in my behavior where I am not showing up visibly." And normally it's I'm not saying things I should say, I'm not giving my opinions, I'm letting other people go first.
[00:14:02] Brian Kavicky: All that stuff's good, but when you have something to say or when you should say something or when you should be present or doing something, to step into that.
[00:14:11] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:12] Brian Kavicky: Because your behavior says more than what you're saying.
[00:14:14] Tiffany Sauder: If you get the feedback of, "I need you to be more visible in the room," or, like, maybe a boss is saying like, "I totally think you deserve this promotion, but nobody else in the building knows your name."
[00:14:24] Tiffany Sauder: Like, you know, "I need you to be more visible." What could be things that you do that are actions, not self-promotion, that are really practical, that are not just like, "Okay, I need to talk three times in a meeting because that is going to help break the ice"?
[00:14:38] Brian Kavicky: it goes back to ask that person that gave you that feedback what that exact question is.
[00:14:43] Brian Kavicky: What, what should I do so that it doesn't look like self-promotion- Mm-hmm ... but looks more like my behavior, my actions, and have that person tell you. Because when somebody's giving that feedback, they're giving that feedback from a gap. Here's what I thought you should be doing and here's what I observe. So they understand the gap.
[00:14:59] Brian Kavicky: They know what that gap is to say, "Here's what it would look like. This is what you do in this instance when I know you've been thinking X. You didn't say a word in that meeting." Mm-hmm. "You should have said this. You should have said this 'cause I know you have that in you." Like, that's actionable things.
[00:15:15] Brian Kavicky: Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, you're right. I do know that. But that person that gives the feedback or mentions that is the right person to ask that question
[00:15:21] Tiffany Sauder: to. Mm-hmm. That's great feedback. My oldest daughter is like this in that she's like, " People will notice that I got this grade," or, "People will notice that I always show up to..."
[00:15:32] Tiffany Sauder: And I'm like, "Sometimes they don't notice 'cause they're busy with their own lives and you need to, you need to say it." I mean, a silly example when we were sitting here, I won an award yesterday, Hair Flip, and I was like, "Did you know?" And you're like, "No." And I'm like, "Well, didn't you go look?" You're like, "No.
[00:15:49] Tiffany Sauder: I didn't go look." I am not actually shopping the internet, Tiffany, to see if you won an award. So I can say to you, "Did you know I won yesterday?" And that is like, "That's cool. Congratulations. That's achievement." That's not self-promotion. But me expecting you to just know it is me not l- not sort of sharing my achievement.
[00:16:08] Tiffany Sauder: Does that make sense? Right. Right. I don't really care about the award. My point is more, people who just show up in a way that is very disciplined and very consistent, I see this in my oldest daughter, she's just expecting her coaches, her teachers, admissions at colleges to b- sort of get it, like, that she just nails her delivery.
[00:16:26] Tiffany Sauder: And it's like, well, if you don't ever tell people, they're not paying attention.
[00:16:29] Brian Kavicky: Well, your, your award was a top 250 award, and I got the email that said, " Here are the 250 people." I went through the email
[00:16:41] Tiffany Sauder: of that- I'm
[00:16:41] Brian Kavicky: dying ... and I did not see your name. So, so but it makes your point that you're, you know, even though somebody knows it exists, it doesn't mean they find you in a group of one of 250.
[00:16:55] Brian Kavicky: Like, does that make sense? Yes.
[00:16:56] Tiffany Sauder: For clarity, audience, I would like you to know I did not win a one of one award.
[00:17:00] Tiffany Sauder: I think I just got de-glazed.
[00:17:06] Brian Kavicky: No, no. I, no, I think that your point, your point
[00:17:09] Tiffany Sauder: is valid. Exactly. Totally. I'm teasing.
[00:17:11] Brian Kavicky: Yeah, 'cause, 'cause to the individual- Yes ... even in a large corporation, it's the same thing. Yes. It's like, just remember you are one event in somebody's day. You are one person in a large sta- Like, there, th- not everybody is focused on you in those moments.
[00:17:26] Brian Kavicky: And, and a lot of times you don't want them to be fo- focused on you- 'cause that could be negative. but to you, it's, it feels and seems important because it is. It's just your one aspect of a day- Mm-hmm ... that's, that's it to everybody else. Mm-hmm. But this, the, the thing that I see as the biggest problem is the, is this fear of self-promotion.
[00:17:45] Brian Kavicky: Because almost nobody walks around self-promoting, and everybody is worried about self-promoting. Um, because they see a few people that take a posture and p- puff their chest and say, "I'm the greatest thing ever," and they know that that doesn't look good or makes them feel bad because it does come from an insecure place.
[00:18:04] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:05] Brian Kavicky: But really don't worry about it as long as you're talking factually.
[00:18:09] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah. That, that is a, a really powerful discernment because if I think about the people who annoy me because they're so self-promotional, it is the inflation of-
[00:18:18] Brian Kavicky: Yeah ...
[00:18:18] Tiffany Sauder: facts that you're like, "Bro, that's not, that's not true.
[00:18:23] Tiffany Sauder: That's not true. That's not true." Right. And you know that, and so you're just getting annoyed ' cause you're like- '
[00:18:27] Brian Kavicky: Cause
[00:18:27] Tiffany Sauder: they're telling- But it is the fact friction that is pissing you off. Yeah. That's so interesting. I've never been able to articulate that before, so very helpful. Thank you.
[00:18:38] Tiffany Sauder: I wanna take a quick moment to thank my partners at Share Your Genius. For the past four years, they have been an incredible part of my journey. Behind the Microphone, Share Your Genius is a content and podcast production agency that helps leaders and brands bring their message to life.
[00:18:52] Tiffany Sauder: So, whether you're trying to find your voice, develop a content strategy, or get your leader behind a microphone, they're gonna help you make it simple, strategic and impactful.
[00:19:00] Tiffany Sauder: This is kind of double standard, but also kind of credit.
[00:19:02] Tiffany Sauder: This is, I said something in a meeting, nobody said anything, and then a man said it 90 seconds later, and the room is now suddenly paying attention. So what's my move? How do I step into that moment?
[00:19:16] Brian Kavicky: so there's two scenarios. There's one is that the group listens to the men, not the women. That is a real thing, and it will sometimes occur.
[00:19:25] Brian Kavicky: what I have found that is true more often is that the way that it was said, regardless of the person, was different than what had happened. So when you put an idea out there, it's like a little thought bubble, what you're doing is you're stimulating everybody else's brain to put the rest of those pieces together.
[00:19:44] Brian Kavicky: And, the smarter of a person you are, the harder it is for you to articulate what's going through your head. So very smart people see this more often than not because they're thinking blah, blah, blah, all these different thoughts, and then they say, "Here's what I think we should do." And they put it out there, and they have all those pieces at that moment, but the rest of the room has not caught up.
[00:20:08] Brian Kavicky: So then somebody else who catches up puts some more of their thoughts into that and says, "Oh, y- and if we do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we can make this work." And they even may position it as an original idea, but they said it just different enough- Mm-hmm ... that the rest of the room caught up, and they're like, "Oh, that makes sense."
[00:20:27] Brian Kavicky: It's not like everybody didn't hear or ignored, it's just they didn't have all those pieces. Mm-hmm. So it's to acknowledge when that happens of like, oh, they got credit for that. It's to go, "Okay, I didn't articulate my whole thought. I didn't get it all out. There were pieces missing," and to just reprocess, like what did they say differently?
[00:20:47] Brian Kavicky: Because it's rarely verbatim word for word- Mm-hmm ... that made the room hear that differently.
[00:20:52] Tiffany Sauder: So I wanna dig into two pieces of that. If it is a culture of credit, meaning like, "We're so grateful, you know, Jim had this idea three years ago, or we'd never be where we are," and you're like, "Dude, like I, I said that."
[00:21:05] Tiffany Sauder: If it is a culture of credit, is there an elegant way to be like, "I had this idea too," or like, do you just need to let it go? Like, is there any way to sort of step into that in a way that doesn't make you seem like a total
[00:21:23] Brian Kavicky: Is there an elegant way? No. Should you say something? Yes. guess the easiest way is to say, "Didn't I say the same thing?"
[00:21:31] Brian Kavicky: Or, "Didn't I come up with the idea?" Or, "Wasn't, when I brought this up in the meeting, wasn't that the exact same thing?" Is to position it as a question instead-
[00:21:40] Tiffany Sauder: Mm ...
[00:21:41] Brian Kavicky: so that you have, like, this vulnerable stance, like, "Am I missing something?" Like, "
[00:21:45] Tiffany Sauder: Am I crazy? Didn't I just say that?" "Am I crazy? Didn't I just say that?"
[00:21:47] Brian Kavicky: Yeah. You know, that, that's the easiest way.
[00:21:50] Tiffany Sauder: Uh-huh.
[00:21:50] Brian Kavicky: But remember, if there's a culture of credit, everybody's scrambling for that credit.
[00:21:55] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:55] Brian Kavicky: So it doesn't always mean that people are gonna go, " Yeah, you did." That sometimes they're gonna say, "Oh, no, I, I thought of this before you." Mm-hmm. "I just didn't say anything."
[00:22:04] Brian Kavicky: Like, there will be people that do that to you. Mm-hmm. So it's... No. There-
[00:22:07] Tiffany Sauder: I like the sort of the diffusing of like, "Am I, am I crazy?"
[00:22:11] Brian Kavicky: Yeah. "
[00:22:11] Tiffany Sauder: Uh, is there an echo in here?" If you have the sort of wherewithal in that moment to say it like that.
[00:22:16] Brian Kavicky: Yeah, I have observed people who have, who have done the opposite, where they've, they've...
[00:22:24] Brian Kavicky: Don't ever address it from a, "I'm hurt because," because that shuts everybody else down. Mm. And I've, I've observed people c- go at that from that stance. Like, "Hey, I said this first. I'm a little hurt that I'm not getting credit." Or like-
[00:22:37] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm ...
[00:22:37] Brian Kavicky: you're a victim then. Nobody re- rewards the victim- Mm ... when that happens, and so be super careful about assigning harm to something that was most likely unintentional.
[00:22:48] Tiffany Sauder: So what about the other side of it, where you are in a room where it just the culture of the company or the team or the leadership has a bias towards men Is that an unclimbable hill? what does it look like in that world? Because it is real. it's so not relevant in my world that I sit in and lead in, but I talk to women that experience this so much more acutely than I would imagine exists in the year 2026.
[00:23:17] Brian Kavicky: And I see it in two different places. I see it with women with men, and I see it with women who work closely with women, where it's a heavily dominated female room. Mm-hmm. Almost the same thing. It's... Because it all comes from this place of, like, smart people with good ideas are not plentiful. And so when you're giving an idea and somebody else is in the room who isn't an idea person, they would love to take credit for that and to do that.
[00:23:43] Brian Kavicky: And it comes from a place of insecurity. so if it happens with men, you're going to have to do the uncomfortable s- thing and say, "Wait, hold on a second. I think I just said the same thing. Why did you all cheer when he said it and you didn't say a word when I said it?" Mm-hmm. You have to drop that bomb in the room, and you have to have the courage to do that.
[00:24:03] Brian Kavicky: Because if it is being done purposefully, the only way to get through it is to call it out and to name that behavior- so that it can't be done anymore.
[00:24:13] Brian Kavicky: but that isn't, like, what somebody wants to do all the time is, like- Mm-hmm ... assert themselves.
[00:24:17] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:18] Brian Kavicky: They don't go, "Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna bring it up."
[00:24:19] Brian Kavicky: But that is what fixes it long term, is to bring it up and make people aware.
[00:24:24] Tiffany Sauder: Do you do it in the room, or do you- Yeah ... maybe pull... You do it in the room?
[00:24:26] Brian Kavicky: In the moment- Okay ... is the best time.
[00:24:28] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. And then women and women, same thing?
[00:24:31] Brian Kavicky: yeah, 'cause it'll happen over position, and the s- the same thing will happen- Mm-hmm
[00:24:36] Brian Kavicky: where, somebody who's in a lower position will have a great idea, and the person in the higher position will take that idea and diminish that. Because women can be super competitive with one another, and that's where the insecurity- Mm-hmm ... comes from, is we're competing.
[00:24:51] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:52] Brian Kavicky: Uh, so it's, it's a different starting place, but it shows up in the same behavior.
[00:24:56] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm. okay, this question is kind of in this idea of finding your voice, so this is a good, I think, next one. "I freeze when someone challenges me in a meeting. I know what I want to say, but it doesn't come out. How do I build that muscle before I need it?"
[00:25:10] Brian Kavicky: that comes to courage. Like, I know what I wanna s- so you're in, you're in a fight or flight, and that's the moment where you're like, "I am being challenged," which means you're emotionally triggered- Mm-hmm ... and that says, "I'm either gonna fight or I'm gonna flight," and you're choosing flight out of that.
[00:25:26] Brian Kavicky: We... Sometimes you're not even choosing it. The only way to change that muscle is to pre-decide. So you have to go into that room and say, "If I am challenged, this is what I'm going to do. If this happens," and make those decisions ahead of time so that your brain in those moments when you're approaching that flight mode of I'm shutting down, say, "No, I'm gonna say this."
[00:25:47] Brian Kavicky: And if you pre-decided, it's easier because you, you usually know when that's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. If you're emotionally triggered, it's either I'm ambushed, which is a safety problem, or I'm shocked because I didn't expect to be challenged. so just getting yourself conditioned of if I'm challenged, and not all those meetings you would be, this is what I'm going to do, this is how I'm going to deal with it, 'cause it's usually a pattern.
[00:26:10] Tiffany Sauder: Totally. So can you give us some phrases or words to be like, if I were to rehearse in my car by myself what I'm gonna say if someone challenges me, are there some phrases that we can have kind of at the ready?
[00:26:21] Brian Kavicky: Yeah, they're I am phrases. So I am smart. I have good ideas. My ideas, when challenged, means people want to know more.
[00:26:31] Brian Kavicky: I am good at coming up with ideas. I am this. It's not I will, it's I am. Because the I am says, "Well, if this is how I actually am, this is what I'll do."
[00:26:41] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:42] Brian Kavicky: So either saying those over or journaling them of this is, this is who I am changes that response 'cause it's your subconscious. Your subconscious needs to know respond differently if this happens.
[00:26:54] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah, you helped me a lot with that, and this was a huge part of my development in my career because I wanted to be prepared and perfect and polished and important. And so anytime something came at me that challenged this perfect veneer that I was trying to create, I internally turn- turned into like a wild animal.
[00:27:17] Tiffany Sauder: It's like my brain shut off and I was like, "Ah!" I... This whole room is discarded because they weren't giving me the feedback that I wanted. And you taught me to be like, "I'm good on my feet." Like I'm, I'm a high quick start. I'm gonna be able to answer the question they have. I'm smart, and I'm gonna be able to recall what it is that I've learned about this.
[00:27:37] Tiffany Sauder: I may not have the answer, but I can always find one. Like, it became this pillow that almost developed underneath myself mentally of like, there's a soft landing always. But when it was, "I've got to be perfect, I've got to be polished, I've got to be prepared, I've got to be, you know, like a presentation princess," that is an impossibility to uphold.
[00:28:02] Tiffany Sauder: And so, of course it was challenged any time I was sort of trying to waltz that version of me on stage. '
[00:28:07] Brian Kavicky: Cause you can hear the difference, I am versus I gotta. Yes. I gotta means I'm working towards, I am means I'm already there.
[00:28:13] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah. It's very interesting. I can even feel my body change internally as I tell those two stories about those two people, like what it feels like to live inside of it.
[00:28:22] Tiffany Sauder: It's very, very, very interesting. is it the same muscle? So the question I asked was I freeze when someone challenges me. there is a certain pers- I don't know, I'll say it as personality or style where they just, they're not as high a quick start, they're more of a processor, and they're not like the go first person.
[00:28:41] Tiffany Sauder: And so, like maybe the conversation has been the, the time limit for it has sort of been exercised and then they were getting ready to say something, but we've sort of moved on. And it's like, "Oh, I didn't get a chance to say something," that happens over and over again. how can they know when to have the confidence to know how to assert themselves into a conversation that too often is dominated by people like me, where I'm like, "I'm a high quick start.
[00:29:08] Tiffany Sauder: I've always got something to say," and like, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, here we go." but someone who is not as high of one and is more of a processor and not as comfortable inserting themselves into an environment like that, how can they build that muscle?
[00:29:21] Brian Kavicky: I think the first step is if you miss your window, go back to that person that challenged you one-on-one and say, "I've been thinking about your challenge.
[00:29:28] Brian Kavicky: Here's what I have to say now."
[00:29:29] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:30] Brian Kavicky: So that you start to learn that if, if I go back, I, I have... I make progress. Mm-hmm.
[00:29:37] Tiffany Sauder: I,
[00:29:37] Brian Kavicky: we end the discussion. We have, we continue. and then I think that over time will help with speed. 'Cause I've, I've found that people almost always know what they should say. Like they go, "Okay, this is what I should do."
[00:29:53] Brian Kavicky: Unless it's like destructive, like the, um... It's just that they hold back in that moment to go, "There's a consequence to this." It's not really a freeze, it's a, there's a consequence. I have to be careful with the consequence despite what I'm thinking or feeling or what's going through my head. But most of the time your gut about where things are at is correct.
[00:30:16] Brian Kavicky: Mm.And people over-index to a consequence to, to a lot. They're like, "I have to be careful with this person. I have to do this."
[00:30:23] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:24] Brian Kavicky: You have to be less careful than you think you do.
[00:30:26] Tiffany Sauder: What about this version of it? I'm in a meeting, I'm making a point. In mid-sentence I start second-guessing myself. My voice changes.
[00:30:34] Tiffany Sauder: I can hear it happening. My brain kind of goes blank and I can't stop it. What's actually going on there?
[00:30:39] Brian Kavicky: You're second-guessing yourself. So There is, um, an intellectual side of I understand, and there is a practical side of I can apply it. And a lot of times that issue happens where people understand something intellectually, but as they're verbalizing it, as they're talking through it, they're going, "Wait a second, there's some gaps here," or, "I hadn't thought of this," or, "The room is reacting differently than I should," blah, blah, blah.
[00:31:08] Brian Kavicky: And it causes this self-doubt to creep in because the thought wasn't fully processed.
[00:31:13] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:14] Brian Kavicky: In those moments, the fix is universal, is to out loud say, "Wait a second, I'm starting to second-guess myself," or, "I can't tell by the look on your faces I'm not saying this right," or, "You know, maybe I haven't put all the points together here.
[00:31:26] Brian Kavicky: Maybe I should think about this more." Just say that out loud. Mm-hmm. Because putting yourself in a place of vulnerability that's legit in that moment- causes the room to rescue you out of it. They're like, "No, no, you were making sense," or, "Keep going. I think I got it," or, "No, that was good," or, "Yeah, why don't you come back when you, when you put it all together?"
[00:31:46] Brian Kavicky: you're going to be okay with that, but it's that fear of if I'm vulnerable in this moment, that's a sign of weakness. Vulnerability only strong people can execute. So it's not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength.
[00:31:59] Tiffany Sauder: I, I mean, literally if this is the only three minutes anybody listens to in this episode, th- that is...
[00:32:05] Tiffany Sauder: it is such a powerful grounding 'cause it does release your brain. I've gotten places where I'm like, I just said the same phrase over and, like four times, and I, my brain is just distracted with the fact that I'm like now counting prepositional phrases and I'm just like lo- like I've just lost it in my head.
[00:32:21] Tiffany Sauder: And when you can just say, "Oh my word, I I'm repeating myself. Let me reorient," it lets your brain free itself back to like the present and to truth, and you're not like holding this little lie almost in your head where it's like, I know this thing and the audience doesn't. It's weird how it creates this disconnect.
[00:32:39] Brian Kavicky: Yeah.
[00:32:40] Tiffany Sauder: It's crazy. Love it. We talked last episode about pricing and money conversations. I wanna talk about money conversations as it relates to personally, and then, uh, we'll wrap this thing up. So I'm great at, uh, I hear this, "I'm great at negotiating for my clients or for my company, but the moment it's for me, a raise, a title, or a budget that I need, I kind of fall apart.
[00:33:02] Tiffany Sauder: Why is it different, and how do I close that gap?"
[00:33:05] Brian Kavicky: So the, I think it was like 15 years ago, I did a keynote for an organization called Mentoring Women's Network, and the thing that they sh- had me talk about was the glass ceiling and this exact phenomenon. And what's very strange about it is that the glass ceiling is real, that there is a disparity between incomes between men and women.
[00:33:29] Brian Kavicky: but when they study the cause, it's a single behavior, is that men don't accept the first offer, women do.
[00:33:39] Tiffany Sauder: Mm.
[00:33:40] Brian Kavicky: And if women would just go, "Ooh, that's a lot lower than what I thought it would be," or, "I'm not sure I'm okay with that," or did anything to say it should be more, they would get it.
[00:33:50] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:51] Brian Kavicky: So what happens is these organizations are set up to say, "Well, we're gonna give them this first offer and see what they do," but they're not correlating it to a man's gonna ask for more, a woman's not.
[00:34:01] Brian Kavicky: They're just responding to the moment.
[00:34:02] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:03] Brian Kavicky: So the fix to this is just say, ask for more. There is no negative consequence to asking for more at all.
[00:34:12] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:13] Brian Kavicky: I had to work on this with my son's girlfriend. She got a brand new job offer, and she came to me and she said they offered me less than I'm making right now."
[00:34:24] Brian Kavicky: And I said, "Okay. Well, what do you want to do?" She's like, "Well, can I get more?" I was like, "Oh yeah, you can get more. Here's what we got to do. first thing I need to know is will you take this offer? So if, if they don't give you more money, will you take it?" She's like, "Oh, I'll take it. I want this job really bad."
[00:34:40] Brian Kavicky: I said, "Okay, then you're good." Mm-hmm. "So now you just be honest with them and you say, 'This is less than I was expecting. Here's my W-2 of what I was making. This is a paid downgrade. I don't know the, if you knew that, but could I have more money?'" And they went, "Oh my gosh. We're so sorry. Of course you can."
[00:35:02] Brian Kavicky: They fixed it. They gave her a raise in 60 days on top of that. They, they did everything. They bent over backwards to g- because to them it was an error-
[00:35:10] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm ...
[00:35:11] Brian Kavicky: where they just said, "Well, this is where we started people in the past," but they never had that conversation with her. Mm-hmm. And so now she's happy in her job making the good money.
[00:35:19] Brian Kavicky: But she went, "Is there something I can do? Am I..." She even asked me, "Am I allowed to push back?" Mm-hmm. I'm like, "Yes."
[00:35:26] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:26] Brian Kavicky: Because the worst case scenario is you take the offer that they gave you. There is zero risk in asking- Mm-hmm ... for more money, 'cause the worst thing you get is no.
[00:35:35] Tiffany Sauder: But even if she would've said, "I'm not willing to take the job for the pri- for the salary they've offered," she was employed, right?
[00:35:42] Brian Kavicky: Yeah, she had a job.
[00:35:43] Tiffany Sauder: So really in both cases she couldn't lose, so to speak. Right. Yeah.
[00:35:48] Brian Kavicky: And in most cases where you're negotiating- Mm-hmm ... for something, you have more pow- Like, the most uncomfortable conversation for somebody is the other person who's controlling the money.
[00:35:58] Tiffany Sauder: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:59] Brian Kavicky: Like, if you're... Like, those of you who are running companies, you know that your employees, when they ask for more money, put you in a tough spot because there's consequences- Mm-hmm
[00:36:08] Brian Kavicky: behind that conversation. Mm-hmm. So being in that seat of I'm asking for more, you have way more power than you think- Mm-hmm ... because whatever they say has a consequence.
[00:36:18] Tiffany Sauder: Brian, this is exactly why I keep coming back to you. You have a way of naming the thing that's sitting in the room that nobody knows how to actually put words to.
[00:36:26] Tiffany Sauder: The women who are the best at this didn't get lucky with confidence. They got specific. They practiced the exact words for the exact moment, and they stopped waiting to feel ready and started building the muscle before the moment came. That's what agency looks like in practice, not waiting for the room to change, but deciding that you know how to move in it.
[00:36:49] Tiffany Sauder: If today's conversation stirred something in you, if you recognized yourself in any of these questions, I want you to pick one, just one moment from today and try it this week. Try it in your car. Try it in a real room with real stakes. That's how the muscle gets built. Brian's information is in show notes.
[00:37:08] Tiffany Sauder: If you wanna go deeper with him directly, I promise you it's worth the hour. I'm Tiffany Sauder, and thank you for joining us this week. This is your reminder to keep building your life of and. And if you loved this episode, please share it with a friend. It is the fastest way that we grow the show. We'll see you next week.