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TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays from 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with full episodes posted to Spotify immediately after airing.
Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” TBPN has interviewed Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. Diet TBPN delivers the best moments from each episode in under 30 minutes.
Let's bring him into the TBPN UltraDome. He's at the New York Times. Mike, how you doing?
Speaker 2:Yo. What's up?
Speaker 1:Good to see you.
Speaker 3:Great to see you. So Wait. So what's up? Yeah. So so
Speaker 1:Four day work week.
Speaker 3:Are they living in the future?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is this universal basic vacation days?
Speaker 2:It's court is incredible in that I got to sleep in till, 9AM today, which is which is great. But I made up for it because, like, literally every day this week, I've gotten up at 05:00 in the morning to get my cold ass down to the Oakland Courthouse and stand outside for two hours. So I don't know. But it's fun.
Speaker 3:How does it how does it work? Who gets priority? Is it first come, first serve? Like if some random person if some random person shows up before you
Speaker 1:They can just get it and then you're just out?
Speaker 3:Or or do you get to like show some sort of like press like how does it work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I wish I was cool enough to, like, cut. Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 3:You should get an artist pass.
Speaker 1:VIP pass. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3:No. Not VIP. Artist pass is a level
Speaker 1:of Okay. Artist pass.
Speaker 2:So there are 20 reserved seats in the front row for press, but the issue is only one person per outlet gets it, and we are doing, like, live blogging for, like, the big moments, like opening statements and for Elon. Yeah. And so myself and my colleague, Cade, came on the first the whole first week. And so so we've had him trade off. He's gotten the, like, press skip the line thing, and I've been with the other folks in the 30 unreserved seats in the back.
Speaker 3:That are watching YouTube videos.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god.
Speaker 3:Or literally Or Stripe sessions.
Speaker 2:Literally, one dude fell asleep. I was actually impressed.
Speaker 1:Fell asleep. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It seemed pretty entertaining. You didn't seem like you were falling asleep. I was keeping up on the through the live blog.
Speaker 2:You reading my nightmarish Twitter too? I it's been fun, honestly. Have you guys ever done, like, court case things or have you ever been sued or been in court?
Speaker 3:I've never been in court.
Speaker 1:I've I I went to a mock court in high school where Yeah. Everyone picks a role. I think I was Yeah.
Speaker 3:We LARPed in court.
Speaker 1:Literally LARPing. In high school. But other than that, I never
Speaker 3:I the whole this whole time, it seems it seems insane. Like, with with the with the with the recent NASA, the moon mission, I was like, this should be a livestream plus a pay per view for the key moments Yeah. For this trial. It's like we have huge budget deficits, and we have these incredible media products. Why are we not doing pay per views?
Speaker 3:Right? But But
Speaker 2:that that's the the funny thing oh, I was just gonna say that's the funny thing about, like, federal courthouse stuff. Like, there's a lot of different rules around filming and electronics. I covered some cases in DC, and I can't even bring a laptop or a phone in those courthouses. So, like, this is actually a very permissive judge just because she believes in, like, press access and stuff, and we've had there's way more access than you would normally get in federal court cases.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you you've been to these court cases before, but if I follow your Twitter, it feels like you're making a bunch of rookie mistakes. You you you you only had egg bites at 05:30AM. Your bite energy is wearing off. You forgot your butt pillow.
Speaker 1:You forgot to fill your water bottle. Like, is this amateur hour, or are you a professional? What's going on?
Speaker 2:I think I think that you you guys might know me well enough that that is kinda how I operate most of my life, like, of chaotic, but it is
Speaker 3:Focus on the important stuff.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I can file.
Speaker 2:I may be, like, bleeding and hungry, like, limping across the finish line, but we're getting I'm tweeting for you.
Speaker 3:What what is your what what is your what are some, like, high profile cases that that stand out you've covered in the past?
Speaker 2:So I got to do let's see. My first one was insanely boring but important. The Apple versus Samsung thing back in the day and like them suing for Samsung copying, like, literally everything they do. Yeah. I did Dallas actually, Zuckerberg's, like I think maybe one of his first testimonies on the stand when Zenimax was suing Meta for the Oculus acquisition.
Speaker 2:Remember that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Palmer like
Speaker 2:And I was in Dallas. That was super fun. That, I almost got kicked out of the courtroom for tweeting.
Speaker 1:Woah.
Speaker 2:And then I did the DC FTC meta one, and I almost got kicked out of the courtroom again. Actually, I did get kicked out of the courtroom for wearing the meta Ray Bans. These are not it. Interesting. But I wore the meta Ray.
Speaker 2:And then they started put I was I was fucking super stupid for doing it. But then they started putting signs up saying, do not wear these glasses in car.
Speaker 3:But you weren't you you were just using them as glasses or you're being sneaky and you're recording?
Speaker 2:No. I was like, look. I can't record. I won't record. I was trying to play by the rules, and, like, they were they are my prescription glasses.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But the
Speaker 2:bailiff the bailiff was like
Speaker 3:It's too much it's too high risk for them. Because you could just because you could have, like, turned off the the light or whatever Yeah. Something like that.
Speaker 1:Talk about the the the fans. Are there really Elon Musk fans in the courtroom? Like, what what motivates someone to go and watch that live? Is this their UFC front row ticket? Like, why are they there?
Speaker 2:So you guys would have fun. Like, it actually is a lot of court cases are boring
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To people who don't care about this stuff. Right? Like, you and I may be super into like, the FTC trial was super fun for me because it's like, oh my god. Mark Zuckerberg emailing Sheryl Sandberg and talking about PATH. Like, this is incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, like, the average person has no idea what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. But this is like a a circus.
Speaker 2:There are people who genuinely love Elon or are genuinely worried about the end of the world happening. And I think it's a really good thing that there's public access to these courts. Like, I think, like, the average person can come in and show up, and that's what I think after the the buzz of Twitter and, like, people seeing that this is a event, we got a much longer lines and, like, folks who are local. Like, just like I know a PM in tech from Meta that came. I know, like, a guy from Box made it in.
Speaker 2:Just if you get a seat if you get there early enough, then you can get a seat, and you can just hang out. It's like and I think it's really great. I think it's great that people are, yeah, are there for it. You know? It shouldn't just be me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. What about the what about the jury? Does the jury seem excited and and honored to have the opportunity to be to be a part of of a case like this, or are they are they nodding off? It'd be it'd be so funny. It'd be, like, so out of just, like, off the Internet.
Speaker 1:To make selection, you can't be super
Speaker 3:biased. You're
Speaker 2:probably not a PO. Like,
Speaker 3:Sam this guy Sam and Greg and this guy who makes cars, and I don't even know what they're talking. A bunch of a whole bunch of mumbo jumbo. Like, there's gotta be one person on the jury that was just so not tapped in that that they're just confused. I
Speaker 2:think jury selection was super interesting for that. I can't say it's actually interesting. I can't say too much about the jury right now because, like, there's all these rules about
Speaker 1:Oh, sure.
Speaker 2:Like, some random person could go up to them if you identify them or try to alter it. Something like that. Yeah. Totally. But I will say, like, during jury selection on Monday, it is an incredible slice of life, and you get, like, how familiar or unfamiliar people are with the tech industry despite being here.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, some folks are like, I have no what you're talk I have idea what you're talking about. I don't know what AI is. I don't know what AGI stands for. So it really it really play and voir dire and jury selection is so important for cases like this.
Speaker 2:Just it makes the dynamic of the facts don't necessarily always matter, but the vibe can really matter, which I think is a benefit for Elon, honestly.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Were they were they trying to weed out they're trying to weed out people that are a little bit too excited about the case. Right? You want the people that are like in order to have a a but but then talk I I didn't understand why why is the jury just, giving, an advisory decision? What is the history of, like why do you why do you have a jury when the judge is ultimately gonna make the final call?
Speaker 3:It it feels like just kind of putting on like a show because like theoretically the judge could just sit through a bunch of depositions and make a call. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sure. No. I I think so I do think they want more often than not want a jury of these CEOs and companies peers to be the deciding factor in what they feel like is good for a civil claim. Like that, I think is fairly standard. But to your point, the judge can throw out their verdict, which is like is and judges, I don't think, tend to want to do that because, like, they want to have reliance on this is the public.
Speaker 2:The public should have a say in what goes or whatever, but the judge can do that. I will say also she is responsible for if they're if Elon or sorry. If OpenAI is found liable, judge decides on remedies, damages, and things like that. So she still has an active role in that regard and in steering the case. But I really do think that full courts often prefer or often appreciate a peer a jury of your peers making some of these decisions.
Speaker 2:So I don't think it's gonna be, like, completely disregarded is what I would say.
Speaker 3:Yeah. How has judge Rogers done so far in your view? Just reading reading the live blog, she seemingly has, like, zingers and, like, pretty pretty, like, good, like, one liners the time. I'm just, like, kind of imagining what it's like in there because, obviously, I'm just reading text. But she's had, like, seemingly, like, some pretty good comedic timing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. She's so funny. She's, like, real like, as you might imagine, there's, like, a number of different types of judges and how they handle their court or whatever. And she just takes no BS from anyone, including the lawyers. And, like, when they try to, like, tap dance or break the rules or whatever, she's like, no.
Speaker 2:Shut up. Or, like, get back on track or no. No. No. Actually, the best part or the most insane part so one woman in the overflow room who is just as not just.
Speaker 2:It was a civilian going to attend and watch it, started recording, which is, again, against the rules, if not the law in a federal courthouse. So the judge brings her in, and in front of a room of, like, a 100 people just, like, dresses her down, yells at her saying, did you not see any of these signs? What are you doing? I will kick you out. I will it was like, I I would have, like, peed my pants and
Speaker 3:started crying
Speaker 2:if she had done that to me. It was deeply, deeply intense.
Speaker 1:It's it's teacher, you know, berating a student. Yeah. Class is in session. Class is in session here.
Speaker 2:It was brutal.
Speaker 1:How how how do you how have you been processing Elon's positioning? It feels like the two the two stories that I've heard him sort of telling are, one, about his commitment to technology, humanity, saving the world through, you know, Tesla and the electrification of the internal combustion engine and SpaceX making, you know, humanity multiplanetary. And then and that's like a very high level, high concept pitch. And then he also sort of brings it down and starts beating this drum on like, you can't steal a charity. You can't steal a charity.
Speaker 1:Is that the correct framing that he's trying to go, like, high and low there? How much have he's been beating each of these drums, and how useful is that?
Speaker 2:Oh, so I I totally agree that's the framing, and I think this really goes to the point of a lot of these trials are pageantry is the wrong word, but let's say theater in that you are this is a jury trial, and it's a different thing than just convincing a judge who I would say is much more attuned to the facts and merit of the case Yep. And, like, hammering in on the evidence and, like, something that may be boring to you or me or whatever or the jury is gonna be more important to a judge. Elon, I think, from day one has leaned into the persona of Elon and just from him being on the stand and saying, I care about humanity. I mean, he he says he does whatever he does or doesn't, but, like, just leaning into this, like, I'm a world changing entrepreneur, and this stuff is existential, and I'm the one who has cared about it. And, like, that may work on a jury.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, there are people who still love him, and, you know, OpenAI is really hammering the facts of what they feel are the are their side of the case and saying, Elon has known about Elon has never been in the dark. He quit in a huff. He he's made it very clear he hasn't been there. He's trying to sue now, or he's trying to file this claim now because he's catching up, because he's behind as an x AI competitor.
Speaker 2:But, like, again, this is all stuff that maybe it doesn't play. Like, this is why jury trials are so risky for companies a lot of the time. You know? It's really it's fun for me. It's probably not fun for for everyone in there, but it's fun to see it play out, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:How did the distillation comments come up?
Speaker 2:That was, like, that was the news of the day yesterday. You guys obviously were Which
Speaker 3:you broke you you you broke it. Right?
Speaker 2:I think I did. Yeah. I think it was one of those things where I was like, holy shit. This is news. And I think, like, folks, like, started figuring it out, but I was like, gotta put it on Twitter.
Speaker 2:And so the point so Bill Sabbat is lead counsel for OpenAI. He was sort of talking about the the point was made in the context of they wanna hammer home. Elon is creating a competitive product. And, also, he keeps stressing that this is doom world ending technology, but at the same time, he's he's he's ripping off the toss and using the technology to improve his own technology in an explicitly for profit company. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the the point is, like, hammering him as a hypocrite. And I think look. Like, I think Elon has history in his businesses. It would not be controversial to say to to, like, say one thing and do the other, and I think he sees it as, like, rules of engagement. That's the game in the, you know, no holds capitalism land.
Speaker 2:But, like, that is how it came up and that they didn't go super deep into it, but they wanted to make the point. He's using OpenAI's tech. He's breaking the toss, and he's partly distilling it. And I wanna say also that Elon went out of his way to say everyone kinda does this. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It's like an open secret in the industry, which I think is, like, also kinda true, but that doesn't make it. There's, like it's it's fraught, I guess, is what I would say.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's a there's obviously a continuum there, which is why he tried to hammer that it was, like, partly, imagine most car companies have taken a rival car for a spin. Have they taken the car apart? You know, there's a line there and there are laws, but that's a separate issue, of course.
Speaker 3:Has has anything come up with a jury around prediction markets? Because I was thinking we've now seen insider trading across every possible prediction market. Right? From, you
Speaker 2:know, I'm That's sure from like
Speaker 1:very interesting.
Speaker 3:You know, even even the Maduro thing was was was Insider trading. Interesting because a lot of people were like, oh, he's just betting on himself. But then, I saw that. I was like, hey, that's sending a signal to the entire world that an attack could be happening, which puts your entire team at risk. Right?
Speaker 3:So like Yeah. Very, very clearly, like, US military personnel should not be able to trade against our own military's actions ever. Right? And that that they need to come down really hard on that.
Speaker 1:Are you just trading this? Are you just trading on this crazy?
Speaker 2:Are you are you gonna retire off
Speaker 3:the list of the The reason the reason that the jury thing is is is bad is it creates a potentially an incentive for the jury to basically work together and say like, hey, like, we all have to be here for like a month. Like, we could at least make some money on it. And then you only need to get like four you only need to get like four or five of these The people that
Speaker 1:is saying monetize jury duty.
Speaker 2:Oh my god.
Speaker 3:No. But but but like, it seems like very important that this does not happen. Right? Because Totally. Because there's very like, they they tried to select a jury that just doesn't care about the AI race.
Speaker 3:They don't care about this or that. And But if they are self interested in some capacity, they could be like, well, my my decision is not is not even really legally binding. It's just advisory. Like, I may as well, you know, I don't know. Right?
Speaker 2:No. I I think that's a great point and like something that I imagine like court systems aren't even prepared for fully yet because like
Speaker 3:Well, there hasn't been a big there hasn't been a big trial. Like, there's been, I'm sure, some like epic Apple stuff that was slightly big, but but nothing where nothing nothing anything at this scale with this much even just this much volume already from people that are generally interested in in Mhmm. In the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And like I think the other thing you should know is like they're not sequestered. Like they show up kind of, like, before
Speaker 1:With anyone else.
Speaker 2:Right before they yeah. Like, they literally, like, we see them walking in and that the marshals there's, a ton of, like, US marshals there. They're like, is anyone a juror in this line? The juror gets to go in. So and at the end of every day, the judge is like goes back over the rules saying, do not discuss this case with anyone.
Speaker 2:Do not watch it on TV. Do not look at it on your phone, which is like a verbal command. Yeah. Right? Don't go on
Speaker 3:your phone.
Speaker 2:Your phone. Just don't. Exactly.
Speaker 3:Hey. Don't use the most addictive thing that has ever been created in human history. Don't use the thing that you use for six hours a day.
Speaker 1:That you probably turn your lights on and adjust your thermostat.
Speaker 2:Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's that's a it's something I had not thought of, Jordy, but it's a really good like, when does that come up at some point? You know? I'm like, that's very worried.
Speaker 2:Not not just every day, but just ever.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It seem it seems like something that that that the court should be paying attention to heading into a decision from from the jury. Yeah. How much is the history between OpenAI's counsel, Bill, who represented he represented Twitter when Elon was trying to get out of the the the the Twitter buyout. And ultimately, it feels like the X slash Twitter acquisition has worked out pretty well for Elon.
Speaker 3:He's made a number a number of plays. So hard to hard to imagine him like, you know, deeply regretting buying it even though at the time he was happy to get out until Bill said, no. We're we're doing this.
Speaker 2:I you know what's funny? He is I I can't underscore enough how different the tenor chain I mean, look. It's like it's opposing counsel, so it's always gonna be different. But Elon went from, like, I'm a entrepreneur sort of like Rosalie explaining to you what I think the future should look like and, like, very concerned for the future of the human race to, like, openly antagonistic to Sabbat's questioning. And, like and the the thing that I'm very curious how this plays with the jury is, like, Elon was very he's like, I'm a literal guy.
Speaker 2:Like, the questions they're asking me are, like, too complicated or, like, they're not yes or no questions, which is, like, fair, like, as a grievance, but also the thing he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about understanding is that that's just lawyers. Like, that's the whole point of a cross examination is to ask these questions as as reductively as possible to to get as type of answer they're looking for, and his job or his, you know, pretrial sort of discussions with his own lawyers is to know how to navigate those essentially while also telling the the truth. So I don't know. They're they just don't like each other, or at least Elon doesn't like Sabbat, and you can very it's very clear that he's just, like, mad at that. And whenever Elon gets sassy, I would hear, like, clearly people who are fans of of Musk, like, laughing behind me or being like, yeah.
Speaker 2:You got him. Like, blah. It's just it's very it's very funny. It's, like, kind of a it's different than the usual vibe is what I'd say.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting.
Speaker 3:Outlook, what's going on Monday? What's the outlook
Speaker 1:for this week? This week was the Elon side for the most part. Are we gonna flip to, Sam and Greg and and some other OpenAI folks, or is there an intermediate step? Like, do you do you have a clear view of what the next couple weeks look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's a little rough because we we have witness lists in full that they presented and are in evidence, but they you don't really learn who's coming until, like, very soon that week. It's actually a giant pain in the ass for me and for reporters who are trying to schedule. But, like so we Jared Burchall
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Who's, like, must family office guy just finished testifying. We're gonna get this guy Stuart Russell That's today. Us. No. That was yesterday.
Speaker 2:Was
Speaker 1:yesterday. Right. And and you said Bertrand was very dry. Like, was that intentional? It feels like that does not work in favor of, like, swinging a jury.
Speaker 1:Was that more for the judge? Like, what was the goal of that of that testimony?
Speaker 2:I think it was to really just sort of show how Musk was trying to set up this, like like, structure things as a non nonprofit and, like, hammer home. Like, he's always wanted it to be a nonprofit, and he's not sort of like so it was it was I believe it was Musk's witness who OpenAI then cross examined, and OpenAI used the occasion to show an email that had, like, a proposed equity structure structure Yeah. For Musk. And so, like, they both kinda used him differently, but I think, like, Birchall's, like, a essentially an accountant books guy, like, behind the scenes. So I think it was, like, here's a peek behind the curtain.
Speaker 2:Here's how they were dealing with the finances. Here's how Mhmm. Musk was like, this is only a charity, and then OpenAI's lawyers were like, actually, check this shit out. So I but I think, like, I don't I honestly don't know. They also struck some of his testimony because this is a little complicated, but if you remember last year, OpenAI or Musk made a bid with Ari Emanuel and some other companies
Speaker 1:buy the whole company.
Speaker 2:And that opened the door or that sort of complicates things from Musk's side because there might be some of those discussions around that bid admitted into evidence, and that may not be good from us because if there's, like, weird compromising emails in there. So, like, it's gotten complicated. But next week, we're getting Stuart Russell, safety researcher. We got Greg Brockman. Maybe Sam Altman, maybe not.
Speaker 2:It's four days a week in court only, so we may not have time, but I gotta be ready. I'll be there most of the time, but I'll be there for Sam for sure, and then I don't know.
Speaker 3:Sorry. Rewinding a second. Did did they bid did they bid on the PBC, like, the for profit arm?
Speaker 1:Yeah. That was the
Speaker 2:It was the yeah. And they they wanted to just sort of I I don't actually know what their plans were afterwards, but, like, it was, like, trying to take over the asset those assets, basically, and then, you know, morph it into what they I I mean and they knew that it wasn't gonna get accepted as a bid, basically, but it was like and then Birchall sorry. Birchall in court was saying this was us trying to sort of establish a pricing mechanism to, like, value the actual entity itself, and that was gonna help them somehow. I actually am not quite sure how that would help them somehow, but someone in the chat is probably smarter than me on that. But, like, it was them trying to sort of take that over.
Speaker 2:And I think OpenAI said publicly at the time, this is like a stalling tactic. They're trying to, like, slow us down while also using this in court in this concurrent lawsuit later, basically. So it's all, like, really messy, and I think even Musk's side took a risk there if those emails get into discovery, but it's unclear to me if that's gonna happen. If we if they are, then we may see them next week. Do you
Speaker 3:Why would why would that that kind of discovery process around that bid be coming up now when everyone involved was well aware that it had happened quite a long time ago?
Speaker 2:So I think because of a line of questioning with Birchall yesterday about the bid that like, if that happens on the stand and, again, like, a lawyer gut check me here because I'm a stupid tech reporter. Mhmm. But if that happens on the stand, then it gives an entry point for open eyes lawyers to be like, okay. Well, we need to, you know, now admit basically, the judge said to Musk's side, you open this line of questioning. Now it's fair game to go into this, and then you can start calling new evidence in around that, like, to open up discovery.
Speaker 2:It's like really, like, strategy and, like, you have to be careful in your strategy when you're asking certain questions in court. I've been learning a lot about it. So maybe it's a strategic misstep by Tobaroff, Elon Floyer, but it's not quite clear yet.
Speaker 1:Do you have a idea of the purpose of the AI safety researchers testifying what the goal is there? Like, does that align with one particular side? Like, if there's more nonprofits, like, you still probably wind up with Anthropic, DeepMind, x AI. Like, it it like, having one, like, you know, more focused nonprofit going on for a long time doesn't necessarily lead me to, like, oh, then we wouldn't be in an AI race. Like, it's not a clear solve for me, but I imagine that there's that one side is trying to position this as important.
Speaker 1:But do you have any predictions for what that goal is?
Speaker 2:Totally. So this is Musk's witness, and your point is well made, which is like, okay. If even if you kneecap one, like, good luck on literally everyone else. Yeah. And, like, there's been a lot of time spent Elon talking smack about Larry Page and how he, like, doesn't trust him anymore.
Speaker 2:That's actually been really fun to hear. But the the point I believe is this is actually a point of contention. So the judge does not the judge prohibited, like, going too far into, like, doomerism into the world stuff. And she's like, look. That's kind of a sideshow distraction.
Speaker 2:Like, extinction humanity stuff is not the point of this case. Yeah. But must side call this guy because they want someone. And this is my my understanding is that Stewart is, very aligned with the idea that AI is super dangerous and gonna harm us all. And so if you get this guy in there How does that to make that point.
Speaker 3:How does that not like, if this guy's gonna come on and say that AI, like, the the most insane, like, doomer point of view, which I think is everyone's gonna have their own Sure. Opinion around this debate. Sure. It's worth completely worthy of of having and and talking about. But but how does Elon square that with, like, I'm trying to build the biggest cluster possible and, you know, distill on the rest of the industry's model and, you know, create tens of of gigawatts of space compute and, like, how how does that how does that like, can't this kind of witness potentially backfire in some capacity?
Speaker 2:No. I mean, you're you're you're exactly right in that squaring that circle is pretty hard and, like, exactly what OpenAI is the only camera in this.
Speaker 3:I should be I I I should be trusted with the, you know, all powerful
Speaker 1:We're gonna be in the Terminator situation
Speaker 2:no matter what.
Speaker 1:Do you want me in charge of the Terminators? Not some other guy, not some nonprofit, not some
Speaker 3:Well, well positioned. Shareholders.
Speaker 2:Is he
Speaker 3:is basically making he's he's he's pivoting Tesla production to Terminators. The Terminators, basically. Stop this.
Speaker 2:Great. No. I I and can I just make one last point is that I think he he misunderstood the Terminator because, like, we still survive and we fight back in that world? Do you do you remember this?
Speaker 1:I've been saying this. People haven't seen the movie. Jordy actually hasn't seen the Terminator. But in all of these
Speaker 2:movies kidding me, dude?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Five movies. In in in all of these movies, like, it completely leaves out that there is a problem, and then humanity overcomes it. And so it's like, if there is a terminator scenario, like, I just wanna know that you're on my side as the resistance fighting back. And, like,
Speaker 2:whether it's John Connor here. Yeah. Or John Connor.
Speaker 1:Hopefully. I mean, I I would say yeah. It's don't know. I don't wanna get into the the the full Uticuski thing, but, like, like, it is reasonable to be to to to to sort of steel man that, like, if it is bad right now, it's not. It sucks.
Speaker 3:Chad says I have to watch Terminator. I've gotta watch Terminator tonight.
Speaker 1:You gotta watch Terminator.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I already saw this Twitter. Terminator two is coming back into IMAX pretty soon. Like, you can go see it in the theater, so you have to go see it, Jordy. Like, it's it's required viewing.
Speaker 3:Let's go together. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm down. I'm down.
Speaker 3:Do you do you have any I would say that so far the trial is less. I mean, it it's hard for the trial to go very viral because there's no audio video and it's just like live blogging. And you can imagine you can imagine some of these scenes like just the stuff that you're typing. I'm like, if that was on video, that gets like 50,000,000 views in like Oh, man. You know, in a few hours on on on x, you know Yeah.
Speaker 3:Across a bunch of these different aggregator accounts. But 100%. Part is is maybe part of the like my my feeling is like it's just so it's just so like, I feel like the entire tech industry is like, it's just kind of depressing to see to see these groups like fighting in this way when we have so much bigger prob like we have so many bigger problems as an industry. Right? The big problem being like public perception of AI is like already so bad.
Speaker 3:Like people, you know, don't don't like, you know No
Speaker 1:matter who wins, we all lose or something like that. There's some very negative stuff and
Speaker 2:I mean, that so I totally agree. I do think actually everyone not everyone, but, like, many in the AI industry have started realizing, oh, we have like, not everyone loves us. Like, this is a perception problem in a lot of way, which, like, to me is funny because, like, I I not that I'm smart, but I feel like I've known that for a little while. And but it's the the the issue is the the industry is coming around to that or at least certain folks are and know that they wanna change that perception. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But this case has been in the system for, like, years now and sort of, like, actually happening at a time where they wouldn't want it to necessarily happen if they're trying to change it. So the timing just sucks, honestly, for for folks who don't like that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's so many different, like, little tidbits, and I don't know if they're gonna be exact quotes, but you can just imagine plenty of things that are gonna happen on the stand winding up on a Bernie Sanders
Speaker 2:postcard and being like, stop it. Paul's AI. Right?
Speaker 1:Oh my god. It gets, like, you know, it's always, like, give the tech people enough rope to hang themselves, and, like, there's lot of rope going out the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. It's totally you gotta one of y'all both of y'all should just show up to the courtroom at some point and, like, experience it because, I mean, you have an actual day job, but it's, like, literally
Speaker 3:Figure
Speaker 2:it it's really interesting and, like, an experience.
Speaker 1:So you you can't record video. You can't record audio. But is there a world where you have, like, of your own stenographers there taking a perfect transcript? Would that be possible with enough resources?
Speaker 2:And then we could do a table reading the show.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm thinking is that is that you could use voice cloning. I don't know if you noticed this. Tyler, what was it? Grok launched voice cloning today or something? Yep.
Speaker 1:Which is why is that controversial again? Well, for, like I mean, we we've had this technology for, like, five years,
Speaker 2:and then
Speaker 1:no one released it because, like, you don't want people to make deep fakes of other people's voices. Okay. Yeah. Because it's, like, textbook. Like, I could It's like, oh,
Speaker 3:it's like, I I I call you John. I need I need I need, like, I need $500. Okay. Can you just give me your credit card
Speaker 1:for a sec? So, obviously, there's a bunch of risky uses of that. The good use is the comedic table read in the voice of Sam Waldman, in the voice of Greg Brockman, in the voice of Eli Fox that we can all enjoy.
Speaker 3:I was thinking more of, like, doing, like,
Speaker 1:Judge, touching TMJ's.
Speaker 3:End of the day. Yeah. There's like we do a play here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's probably best. A bunch of different actors. Full makeup, full costumes.
Speaker 2:So You know, there are transcription services Okay. And even like
Speaker 3:You could do you could be Mike Isaac by like Oh,
Speaker 1:He needs someone playing you for sure.
Speaker 3:No. No. No. It's like a it's a it's a cameo.
Speaker 1:He's playing so good. And then you gotta go full Nathan Field.
Speaker 3:And the whole the whole time just crashing out like, I forgot my lunch. I forgot to fill up my water.
Speaker 1:I had a banana. I had a banana.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. Okay. Can I just say there is an attorney there that looks exactly like Nathan Fielder that I'm like, almost like
Speaker 1:Are you sure it's Nathan Fielder? Looks like Nathan Fielder. Okay.
Speaker 2:I every time I see him, I'm like, is this, like, a bit? Like, I'm am I gonna be on TV in some way? It's very intense. I mean, you gotta ask him next year.
Speaker 1:I mean, Elon Musk has the funniest outcome's the most likely, and that might be
Speaker 2:Yeah. Seriously.
Speaker 1:What what is the what is the funniest outcome? The funniest outcome is, like, Elon wins and the penalty is, like, is, like, $50 or something. Yeah. Like, that it's like it's like, Elon, like, you win. Here's here's a $150.
Speaker 1:Enjoy.
Speaker 2:Oh god.
Speaker 1:Just the most like inconsequential fine for the AI industry which is flush with cash at all times.
Speaker 2:Well, I
Speaker 3:find that like Good. Fine like, there's so many any anytime a company in tech gets that just gets fined or not every time, but often it's like
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's a fine for ants.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Like, they they they did something that was bad. They generated a 100,000,000 of revenue, and the fine is, like, $1,500,000. Yeah. It's like, did that
Speaker 1:I think the current meta YouTube lawsuit was like, maybe a $10,000,000 settlement. Of course, was like Oh, wow. Knock on of potential for cloud
Speaker 3:that for one individual.
Speaker 1:That was one individual. But still, it was like, you you have this like landmark case, this big build, and then you're like, oh, how how how damaging is it gonna be? It's gonna be, like, five minutes of revenue.
Speaker 2:But The stock actually in Meta earnings is is far I mean, there was a lot of shit that took the stock down. But, like, I think one of them was them saying, like, this might have a material impact on like, these cases, like, may have a material impact in the future if it opens the door. So, like, yeah, I agree. Like, it's always remedies are always, like it can be existential from a financial point of view, but also just from a guess what? This is about to become your whole fucking life for the next ten years or whatever, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. We talked to a a a law professor who, said, like, the question is, does social media exist in the future? Like, this is an existential moment. I'm not sure that we're quite there, but it is it is there's definitely a risk, and you need to consider that if you're an investor.
Speaker 1:Totally. Anyway Totally. What's the game plan for next week? What's going in? Are you doing trail mix?
Speaker 1:Are you doing protein bars? I want you fueled up, ready to go.
Speaker 2:Camelback? Blogging. Yeah. Yeah. You
Speaker 3:should be able to do, like, a sponsored camelback. You know? Did
Speaker 2:you ever watch jury do the show jury? Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
Speaker 2:I I wanna be the guy with, like, the chair pants Yep. And the, like, the water thing attached to my back. And, like, I need I'm gonna this is blogging. This is back in my blogging all things digital blog days, man. This is this is it.
Speaker 1:So I will be this weekend.
Speaker 2:More prepared.
Speaker 1:This weekend. That's right. You should go sit in a chair for eight hours straight.
Speaker 2:Are you Just like Are
Speaker 3:you gonna do all four days? Are you doing all four days?
Speaker 2:I think we're gonna switch off a little more. I I apologize. I will not be my, like, disastrous falling apart self every day of the week, just maybe two days of the week. So Kate you should follow Kate Metz, my other colleague who's there. Although he he is much more put together and does not tweet like a person off their meds like I do, so it'll be a different vibe each day, but I I will be there next week.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Last question. Is this book material? Is it does it rise to that quality, this drama?
Speaker 2:I feel like the someone's gotta
Speaker 3:write I would I would write a book on your coverage of this trial.
Speaker 2:Yes. That's what I wanna read. This the my podcast. Would do a podcast about it.
Speaker 3:I would do a podcast about it, and then someone would make a book about the podcast about the book. Yes. Yes. Covering This
Speaker 1:is the guy's covering. We'll create a content Ouroboros here.
Speaker 2:I'm stressing. We'll just keep it going someday. I don't know. We'll see.
Speaker 1:Anyway, thank you so much
Speaker 3:for taking time come out. Good to see you, Mike.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thanks for the update.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:Have a good one, guys. I'll see you soon. Bye.