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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks, the show where I dive into the stories, struggles, and sparks of inspiration behind great design.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Ray, and I'm gonna be pulling back the curtain on the creative process, but not just the work itself, but the people who make it happen.
00:00:17 [Speaker 1]
Each episode, I sit down with a different creative mind to uncover how they think and everything in between.
00:00:23 [Speaker 1]
So if you're curious about the why behind design and the stories of the people shaping our world one idea at a time, you're in the right place.
00:00:49 [Speaker 1]
Welcome back to Type Speaks.
00:00:51 [Speaker 1]
This is a new but not a new season.
00:00:53 [Speaker 1]
And I am joined once again with the wonderful Magate Baker.
00:00:56 [Speaker 2]
Hey.
00:00:57 [Speaker 2]
Thank you for having me back.
00:00:58 [Speaker 1]
Of course.
00:00:58 [Speaker 1]
I'm always happy to have you back.
00:01:00 [Speaker 1]
I was excited to hear you were coming back to Auburn so we could be in person again.
00:01:03 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:01:03 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:01:04 [Speaker 1]
And now we have fancy, better equipment and lights.
00:01:07 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:01:08 [Speaker 2]
It's very it's very sparkly in here.
00:01:10 [Speaker 1]
Very fun.
00:01:11 [Speaker 1]
Now to people who maybe didn't listen to the other episodes
00:01:14 [Speaker 2]
Which they
00:01:14 [Speaker 1]
should.
00:01:15 [Speaker 1]
You should.
00:01:16 [Speaker 1]
I mean
00:01:16 [Speaker 2]
Like, all of them.
00:01:17 [Speaker 2]
Not just mine.
00:01:18 [Speaker 2]
All of them.
00:01:18 [Speaker 2]
Thank you.
00:01:19 [Speaker 2]
Find them.
00:01:19 [Speaker 2]
Listen to them.
00:01:20 [Speaker 1]
You can listen to them on every major podcasting platform.
00:01:23 [Speaker 1]
Some of them are on YouTube, not all of them because it's hard work.
00:01:28 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:01:28 [Speaker 1]
But every podcasting platform.
00:01:30 [Speaker 1]
Sure.
00:01:31 [Speaker 1]
Not every, but probably one out there I don't know about yet.
00:01:34 [Speaker 1]
That's really okay.
00:01:35 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:01:35 [Speaker 1]
But can you give an explanation of who you are to someone?
00:01:39 [Speaker 2]
Oh, goodness.
00:01:40 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:01:40 [Speaker 2]
I'm my initial, impulse in that is to give just completely different ways Okay.
00:01:48 [Speaker 2]
Who I am and what I am.
00:01:49 [Speaker 2]
But to be to be, gracious Mhmm.
00:01:53 [Speaker 2]
I'm Magay Baker.
00:01:54 [Speaker 2]
I am a role playing game designer.
00:01:57 [Speaker 2]
And, I'm also a textile conservation specialist.
00:02:01 [Speaker 2]
I've worked in museums for sixteen years.
00:02:06 [Speaker 2]
I've been publishing role playing games with my husband, Vincent Baker, for, twenty five years, little more, more or less.
00:02:17 [Speaker 2]
Those are, like, the main things that I think are relevant for this conversation.
00:02:22 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:22 [Speaker 2]
There's other hats.
00:02:23 [Speaker 2]
They come out sometimes.
00:02:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:25 [Speaker 2]
A lot
00:02:25 [Speaker 1]
of hats.
00:02:25 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:26 [Speaker 2]
So many hats.
00:02:27 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:02:28 [Speaker 1]
So I think we should just dive into the topic Brilliant.
00:02:30 [Speaker 1]
Because we have only so much time.
00:02:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:33 [Speaker 2]
Because left on our own, we will talk for two hours.
00:02:35 [Speaker 2]
This
00:02:35 [Speaker 1]
is true.
00:02:35 [Speaker 1]
This has happened before, and you can listen to it Yes.
00:02:39 [Speaker 1]
On Weagle FM YouTube channel.
00:02:41 [Speaker 1]
The We the Weagle FM YouTube channel.
00:02:43 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:02:43 [Speaker 1]
So the topic, I've been thinking about recently is community gaming and designing those experiences, but particularly in times of turmoil.
00:02:54 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:02:54 [Speaker 1]
Because I feel we've talked about it before and maybe kind of panned it off into other topics, but Mhmm.
00:03:00 [Speaker 1]
I think when places or communities are kind of in in distress or distress, must both happen at the same time.
00:03:07 [Speaker 1]
It's often the the things in the in the community building aspects kind of get thrown to the wayside sometimes.
00:03:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:03:13 [Speaker 1]
But those things are still important.
00:03:15 [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
00:03:16 [Speaker 1]
Absolutely.
00:03:16 [Speaker 1]
Is still important.
00:03:17 [Speaker 1]
So I kinda wanted to just have an open discussion about that and what you think about that as a game designer.
00:03:22 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:03:22 [Speaker 2]
So one of the things like, you've just, basically, you've said it.
00:03:27 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:03:28 [Speaker 2]
It is so critically important in times of stress to continue as an act of resistance and an act of humanity to, find joy enough to to create art, to do all the things that make us human.
00:03:46 [Speaker 2]
Because if we go back deep into history, though that's what we have.
00:03:52 [Speaker 2]
Like, in the archaeological record, we have evidence of art and evidence of play going back Yeah.
00:03:59 [Speaker 2]
Forever.
00:04:01 [Speaker 2]
Evidence of warfare and other things and disease, of course.
00:04:04 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:04:05 [Speaker 2]
But it's what helps keep us human.
00:04:08 [Speaker 2]
And there's all kinds of things in if you get into biology of it in terms of like dopamine and, you know, oxycodone.
00:04:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:04:17 [Speaker 2]
All those things, all those brain chemicals and stuff that help reduce stress through laughing with friends, playing with friends.
00:04:25 [Speaker 2]
We also have a very long history of using games and play as a way to, scaffold resiliency
00:04:33 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:04:33 [Speaker 2]
And practice being in hard situations.
00:04:36 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:04:36 [Speaker 2]
And sometimes if your life is exploding or if you're watching your world explode, having the control that you have in a game to be like, I'm gonna be the one who's causing the explosions.
00:04:50 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna break things.
00:04:52 [Speaker 2]
You know, that's one of the the releases that gaming gives to us.
00:04:55 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:04:55 [Speaker 2]
You know, tabletop role playing game gives to us is the ability to get through your day
00:05:02 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:05:02 [Speaker 2]
Doing whatever your day is, the stress of your day.
00:05:06 [Speaker 2]
I don't care what you're doing and what your day is, it has stress.
00:05:09 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:05:10 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:05:10 [Speaker 2]
And then being able to come together with friends and being like, okay, this was my day.
00:05:15 [Speaker 2]
I just wanna hit something.
00:05:17 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:05:18 [Speaker 2]
You can do it.
00:05:19 [Speaker 2]
I wanna pretend hit something and pretend
00:05:21 [Speaker 1]
fire blast something.
00:05:22 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:05:23 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:05:23 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:05:24 [Speaker 2]
So that's one side.
00:05:25 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:05:25 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:05:26 [Speaker 2]
But if you're talking specifically to the time and looking at the crisis we are in and the ongoing trauma Mhmm.
00:05:34 [Speaker 2]
That we are all in starting in at least 2020.
00:05:39 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:05:39 [Speaker 2]
We'll be gracious about that.
00:05:41 [Speaker 2]
There are, you know, depending on depending on where you're at, some of us look years earlier
00:05:47 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:05:47 [Speaker 2]
Like four years earlier, than that.
00:05:50 [Speaker 2]
And the but the unfolding, chronic trauma of navigating that and then navigating, like, continuing fallout and difficulty, That ability to form connections around things we enjoy is really important.
00:06:09 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:06:10 [Speaker 2]
We are there's a a thing that happens with a lot of people, myself included, feeling like I'm not doing enough.
00:06:17 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:06:17 [Speaker 2]
You know, what more?
00:06:18 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, for me, that goes back to there's a famine in Africa in '19 Yeah.
00:06:24 [Speaker 2]
'78, you know.
00:06:25 [Speaker 2]
And like, what can I do about that as an eight year old?
00:06:29 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:06:29 [Speaker 2]
Sort of thing.
00:06:31 [Speaker 2]
But, now one of the things that we can do, is provide spaces for people to remember they're human.
00:06:40 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:06:41 [Speaker 2]
Provide spaces to try on different ways of engaging with each other.
00:06:46 [Speaker 2]
To be, to to press empathy and compassion in ways that trying on another role Mhmm.
00:06:54 [Speaker 2]
Does.
00:06:55 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:06:55 [Speaker 2]
You you even if you're trying on a role of, okay, I'm just gonna be the most,
00:07:00 [Speaker 1]
like, stone cold.
00:07:01 [Speaker 2]
Do we swear on this show?
00:07:03 [Speaker 1]
Not You can say an an it's a nice swear word.
00:07:06 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:07:06 [Speaker 2]
I can be the most stone cold badass person ever, and I'm just here to hit things and, like, I have no emotion.
00:07:14 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:07:14 [Speaker 2]
But you're still trying on what that feels like.
00:07:16 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:07:16 [Speaker 2]
And there are times when externalizing that bit allows you to be more compassionate in your in your waking life, in your regular non gaming life.
00:07:26 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:07:26 [Speaker 2]
Because you've had this other experience.
00:07:30 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, there's a whole there are whole voices out there about, like, empathy and compassion being bad words.
00:07:39 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:07:40 [Speaker 2]
And I'm like, how do you think we survive?
00:07:43 [Speaker 2]
Oh my god.
00:07:44 [Speaker 2]
You know, we get here because of empathy and compassion, and you're like paying and like even even if you wanna go sort of, benevolent self interest.
00:07:55 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:07:55 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:07:56 [Speaker 2]
The benevolent self interest we have of trying to find a way to help be part of the collective
00:08:04 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:08:04 [Speaker 2]
So that you know, I wanna help be part of the collective group Yeah.
00:08:09 [Speaker 2]
So that the collective group doesn't decide to push me out and leave me for the Jaguars.
00:08:13 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:08:13 [Speaker 2]
You're right?
00:08:14 [Speaker 2]
Like, we have a benevolent self interest
00:08:16 [Speaker 1]
in Mhmm.
00:08:17 [Speaker 1]
Being Nice.
00:08:18 [Speaker 2]
A healthy member of our community.
00:08:19 [Speaker 1]
So
00:08:22 [Speaker 2]
these are all pieces of Yeah.
00:08:26 [Speaker 2]
And then building community around that, finding ways to connect, finding ways to be like, alright.
00:08:31 [Speaker 2]
Let's play online so that nobody has to go Yeah.
00:08:33 [Speaker 2]
Endanger themselves.
00:08:34 [Speaker 1]
One of the most interesting things of course, I was in high school during 2020 Yeah.
00:08:39 [Speaker 1]
During the pandemic.
00:08:41 [Speaker 1]
And that's when I first started playing role playing games.
00:08:43 [Speaker 1]
And, of course, that was just DND because that was what I only I knew that I thought that was the only thing out there Mhmm.
00:08:48 [Speaker 1]
How naive I was.
00:08:49 [Speaker 1]
It's okay.
00:08:50 [Speaker 1]
Everybody's gotta come in somewhere.
00:08:52 [Speaker 1]
But there was I feel like this explosion of community, like like, groups of friends playing games.
00:08:59 [Speaker 1]
And that's also I'm also grouping in video games as well.
00:09:03 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:03 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:09:05 [Speaker 1]
And, like, the games with friends, like, multiplayer.
00:09:07 [Speaker 1]
But, like, these games are built for that.
00:09:09 [Speaker 1]
It's not just, like, oh, we're playing, like, cod.
00:09:12 [Speaker 1]
It's like, oh, this is a this is a game for friends.
00:09:14 [Speaker 1]
And then we also have people a lot of people getting into role playing games, tabletop role playing games, but also other, like, types of role playing games.
00:09:22 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:09:22 [Speaker 1]
And I and I almost I at least kind of came to the conclusion that it was because there was this yearning for community that I feel like was building for a long time with, like, with the invention of the Internet.
00:09:35 [Speaker 1]
And, like, we think we're connected, but we're kind of not.
00:09:37 [Speaker 1]
In phase, that really came to, like, full fruition during the pandemic where it was like, oh, like, I there is no one around me.
00:09:46 [Speaker 1]
Right.
00:09:46 [Speaker 1]
And I'm and I'm and being online isn't giving me what I need.
00:09:50 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:09:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:51 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:51 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:51 [Speaker 1]
So but I feel like that built a lot of communities even stronger during that time.
00:09:56 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:09:57 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:09:57 [Speaker 1]
I agree.
00:09:58 [Speaker 2]
I absolutely agree.
00:09:59 [Speaker 2]
I think that there's, you know, we don't realize what we have till it's gone kinda thing that happened for a lot of people when suddenly, you know, they they sort of thought they were part of a community.
00:10:09 [Speaker 2]
Thought they were like, I just don't really wanna be around people and then it was Yeah.
00:10:13 [Speaker 2]
Shut down.
00:10:14 [Speaker 2]
And you were like, oh, God.
00:10:17 [Speaker 2]
Here are my people.
00:10:18 [Speaker 2]
And that sense of being able to, find other people because we really do,
00:10:29 [Speaker 1]
you
00:10:29 [Speaker 2]
know, we're a herd mammal.
00:10:30 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:10:31 [Speaker 2]
We like to be in groups.
00:10:32 [Speaker 2]
And even if you're someone who really thrives on having alone time and like being self sufficient and can tell, which is great.
00:10:41 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:10:42 [Speaker 2]
You still we have a need.
00:10:45 [Speaker 2]
You know, there's a reason why isolation is a punishment and something we do horribly.
00:10:51 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:10:51 [Speaker 2]
You know, separate someone from their community.
00:10:56 [Speaker 2]
And so that thing that the online provides in terms of finding each other, finding people, like we see this all over, you know.
00:11:04 [Speaker 2]
If if you're like, I don't know, you're vinyl record hobbyists and you find each other and talk about that, or you're role playing, or you're photography, you're really into lighting and studio design, all these things.
00:11:15 [Speaker 2]
The Internet provides a way to connect around that.
00:11:17 [Speaker 2]
And then then there's the leap to, does that satisfy that sense of community?
00:11:23 [Speaker 2]
Or is that, you know, does it stay in a kind of parallel play place?
00:11:28 [Speaker 2]
Because I mean, I think parallel play is a very useful thing for any age.
00:11:32 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:11:33 [Speaker 1]
You know, like, oh, I use it to get I got it.
00:11:35 [Speaker 1]
That's how I got through college.
00:11:37 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:11:38 [Speaker 2]
And it gets denigrated and it gets put in this place of, you know, ear whatever, you know, a thing like, oh, you need to have somebody around to stabilize you, but that's just more crap.
00:11:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:11:51 [Speaker 2]
Everything is a spectrum, etcetera, etcetera.
00:11:53 [Speaker 2]
We'll give the appropriate caveats.
00:11:55 [Speaker 2]
But we tend to want to do what the people around us are doing, especially if we care about them and we have some, like, emotional connection.
00:12:04 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:04 [Speaker 2]
So if I'm in the house and everybody else is sitting around playing, you know, games on their phone, I'm gonna sit around playing games on their
00:12:11 [Speaker 1]
phone.
00:12:12 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:12:12 [Speaker 2]
If everyone else in the house is playing Minecraft, I'm gonna really want if everybody else is going for a walk, of course, I'm gonna go for a walk.
00:12:19 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:20 [Speaker 2]
So it's that thing where it's not, you know, if if it more cleaning happens if we're all like, hey.
00:12:26 [Speaker 2]
You know what?
00:12:26 [Speaker 2]
Let's all spend fifteen minutes cleaning.
00:12:29 [Speaker 2]
It's not mysterious.
00:12:31 [Speaker 2]
It's not something that anybody should be, like, feel weird about.
00:12:35 [Speaker 2]
We just like to be doing things collectively.
00:12:39 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:39 [Speaker 2]
If we look back historically, that's how all of life happens because you have to tend the fields.
00:12:46 [Speaker 2]
You have to harvest.
00:12:47 [Speaker 2]
You have to plant.
00:12:47 [Speaker 2]
You have to harvest.
00:12:48 [Speaker 2]
You have to deal with the livestock.
00:12:50 [Speaker 2]
You have to deal with all these things.
00:12:52 [Speaker 2]
Everything takes lots and lots of hands.
00:12:53 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:54 [Speaker 2]
And why not find things to do to entertain yourself while you're doing this tedious repetitive chore?
00:13:00 [Speaker 2]
And that's where you have games that come in.
00:13:02 [Speaker 2]
You know, and that's where you have earliest role playing games, I think, even though I don't have the
00:13:06 [Speaker 1]
proof of it yet.
00:13:07 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:13:07 [Speaker 2]
But I do know that Louisa May Alcott writes in Little Women about very early in the book, she and her sisters are doing piecework.
00:13:18 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:13:18 [Speaker 2]
It's not referenced in the book, but that is what she's writing about where they're all hemming sheets Yeah.
00:13:23 [Speaker 2]
For piecework.
00:13:25 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:13:26 [Speaker 2]
Which will be sent out as blanks and then they'd sew them and send back.
00:13:30 [Speaker 2]
And she makes up this game where each side is a continent.
00:13:35 [Speaker 2]
And the girls tell stories with each other which we only
00:13:38 [Speaker 1]
get
00:13:38 [Speaker 2]
this like two little lines about how they deal with the tedium of that work which
00:13:46 [Speaker 1]
they must do.
00:13:47 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:13:47 [Speaker 2]
How do they get through it?
00:13:48 [Speaker 2]
They're like, okay.
00:13:49 [Speaker 2]
I'm going through Africa.
00:13:51 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:13:51 [Speaker 2]
And then they play the so we have these little tantalizing bits that we know are evidence of past Mhmm.
00:13:58 [Speaker 2]
Role playing games.
00:13:58 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:14:00 [Speaker 2]
Or something that was proto role playing, that really underlies your question about community and connection and the point these serves.
00:14:09 [Speaker 2]
Because to Little Women again, it's during the civil war.
00:14:12 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:14:12 [Speaker 2]
Their father is away.
00:14:14 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:14:14 [Speaker 2]
He might be dead.
00:14:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:14:16 [Speaker 2]
They might not get news of that for weeks.
00:14:18 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:14:19 [Speaker 2]
But they have to do the day to day tasks.
00:14:21 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:14:21 [Speaker 2]
And they're using these other skills and their these imaginative skills to get through it.
00:14:26 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:14:27 [Speaker 2]
That went a lot of places.
00:14:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:14:29 [Speaker 1]
I think but I think it I think it got to to the point.
00:14:32 [Speaker 1]
You mentioned earlier, and I wanted to kind of follow back to that, where, like, with role playing games, you get to put on a lot of hats, like, different things that you would never get to experience in real life, whether that be magic and dragons or just, like, being mean.
00:14:51 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:14:52 [Speaker 1]
Like, I mean that genuinely.
00:14:53 [Speaker 2]
Like I agree.
00:14:55 [Speaker 1]
I think a lot of people act out things that maybe they wouldn't want to explore, and we maybe you don't want to explore being mean in real life.
00:15:03 [Speaker 1]
But playing out different archetypes of people that Mhmm.
00:15:07 [Speaker 1]
You're too afraid to do to the day to day.
00:15:09 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:15:10 [Speaker 1]
And I I don't know if that helps build self confidence, but I probably does.
00:15:15 [Speaker 2]
I think it absolutely does.
00:15:16 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:15:17 [Speaker 2]
I think that practicing any kind of communication helps build more communication.
00:15:23 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:15:24 [Speaker 2]
And if you you know, there's also the whole thing of like fake it till you make it.
00:15:28 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:15:28 [Speaker 1]
You
00:15:28 [Speaker 2]
know?
00:15:28 [Speaker 2]
And if you practice confidence, you will gain confidence.
00:15:31 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:15:33 [Speaker 2]
If you practice good communication skills Mhmm.
00:15:37 [Speaker 2]
You get better at them.
00:15:38 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:15:38 [Speaker 2]
So it's it's very clear, and I think the science backs this up.
00:15:42 [Speaker 2]
If you look at the use of role playing games for, scaffolding those skills in elementary school and middle school
00:15:50 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:15:50 [Speaker 2]
Of practicing social interaction.
00:15:53 [Speaker 2]
Because one of the things it does is it provides a remove.
00:15:56 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:15:57 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:15:57 [Speaker 2]
If I feel awkward and uncomfortable and unsure of myself, but my character is fearless, I can practice being fearless.
00:16:10 [Speaker 2]
I can pretend that I'm fearless.
00:16:12 [Speaker 2]
If I feel as though I have no voice, but my character Mhmm.
00:16:17 [Speaker 2]
Can be someone who is not only trying to have a voice for themselves, but is trying to save the world.
00:16:26 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:26 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:16:27 [Speaker 2]
It allows me to scaffold some of that within myself.
00:16:31 [Speaker 2]
That is that's amazing.
00:16:33 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:16:33 [Speaker 2]
And the the percentage of people out there in the world who have figured out those skills first, somewhere between ten and twenty Mhmm.
00:16:46 [Speaker 2]
Playing role playing games is really significant.
00:16:49 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:16:50 [Speaker 2]
And it then that, spirals over or spreads out, ripples out to other skills.
00:16:55 [Speaker 2]
Like, how many people are now working artists who started sketching their character on their character sheet?
00:17:04 [Speaker 2]
Or right now, how many people are working in recorded, putting things out online, who started being like, oh, man.
00:17:15 [Speaker 2]
This is really funny.
00:17:16 [Speaker 2]
What if we recorded this?
00:17:17 [Speaker 2]
That would be so funny.
00:17:19 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:17:19 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:17:21 [Speaker 2]
I think it's just I think that's I I think it's one of the best things people can do.
00:17:24 [Speaker 2]
I think people should play more games.
00:17:27 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:27 [Speaker 1]
All the way through.
00:17:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:30 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:30 [Speaker 1]
That was you know, I would not just say that role playing games were the only thing to help build my confidence.
00:17:36 [Speaker 1]
But I do know that as my confidence built through college, I was playing role playing games with my friends.
00:17:41 [Speaker 1]
I was playing two D and D campaigns.
00:17:43 [Speaker 2]
It's kind of awesome to be to do something at a table Mhmm.
00:17:47 [Speaker 2]
And then have all your friends go, that was awesome.
00:17:50 [Speaker 1]
It's it rocks.
00:17:50 [Speaker 2]
Like, it it's the best, you know?
00:17:52 [Speaker 2]
And it's also fantastic when you discover things in your own imagination that you didn't know were there.
00:18:02 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:02 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:18:03 [Speaker 2]
Or you're talking along and going along, and it and suddenly you say, you're like, it's this thing.
00:18:09 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:18:09 [Speaker 1]
And you're
00:18:10 [Speaker 2]
like, woah.
00:18:11 [Speaker 2]
It's cool.
00:18:12 [Speaker 1]
Those sort of status like, when I was playing, our DM had to go to med school.
00:18:17 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:18:18 [Speaker 1]
But Love that one.
00:18:19 [Speaker 2]
D and
00:18:19 [Speaker 1]
D sometimes falls to the wayside when someone has exams every Monday Yeah.
00:18:24 [Speaker 1]
You know, on parts of the human brain.
00:18:26 [Speaker 1]
But when we were playing, every Sunday, I was like, there was a sense of satisfaction every time I left that I wouldn't have gotten that day.
00:18:35 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:18:35 [Speaker 1]
And I would have just, what, sat around on my butt, you know, twiddling my thumbs.
00:18:40 [Speaker 1]
But I instead, I every Sunday, I went to hang out with my friends.
00:18:43 [Speaker 1]
And I think of, like, winning and satisfaction every every Sunday kept me going at some points because if you're not getting that anywhere else sometimes, because life sometimes kicks you to the ground and doesn't let you back up, that keeps you keeps you up.
00:18:59 [Speaker 2]
Yep.
00:18:59 [Speaker 2]
And gives you something to look forward to.
00:19:01 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:19:01 [Speaker 2]
Like, you know, in the Baker House band right now, which is the group of young folks that play at our house every week, you know, someone had a really bad piece of news Mhmm.
00:19:12 [Speaker 2]
Last week.
00:19:13 [Speaker 2]
And there was an open question as to whether somebody gonna
00:19:17 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:19:17 [Speaker 2]
Make it.
00:19:18 [Speaker 2]
Everybody made it.
00:19:19 [Speaker 2]
It was great because it gets you through.
00:19:21 [Speaker 2]
Because community gets you through.
00:19:23 [Speaker 2]
You know, being able to exercise other pieces of your brain gets you through.
00:19:28 [Speaker 2]
None of us want to be doing the same thing Yeah.
00:19:32 [Speaker 2]
Twenty hours a day Mhmm.
00:19:34 [Speaker 2]
Every single day.
00:19:35 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:19:35 [Speaker 1]
You
00:19:35 [Speaker 2]
know, it's like, we need that change of brain focus, and all the stuff you just said about, like, doing something together.
00:19:44 [Speaker 2]
And then you feel good afterward and be like, wow.
00:19:45 [Speaker 2]
That was awesome.
00:19:46 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:19:47 [Speaker 2]
The mediocre session.
00:19:48 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:19:48 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:19:48 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't have to always be the best amazing thing.
00:19:52 [Speaker 2]
It can be like, oh, that one line, that was good.
00:19:55 [Speaker 2]
Or like, oh, next time, I'm gonna do this other thing.
00:19:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:19:58 [Speaker 2]
So, yeah, it's huge.
00:19:59 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:20:01 [Speaker 1]
This is kind of a a question.
00:20:02 [Speaker 1]
I don't I'm I need to figure out how to formulate it, so hopefully it comes out right.
00:20:05 [Speaker 1]
When we're talking about designing games now
00:20:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:09 [Speaker 1]
Like, these things used to come about quite naturally.
00:20:12 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:20:13 [Speaker 1]
Or they they still do.
00:20:14 [Speaker 1]
Like, children playing games together pretending to be Dinosaurs.
00:20:18 [Speaker 1]
Dinosaurs.
00:20:19 [Speaker 1]
Or I'm ever playing cops and robbers Mhmm.
00:20:22 [Speaker 1]
Or superheroes, because I used to consume a lot of comic books.
00:20:27 [Speaker 1]
And I would have all the powers.
00:20:29 [Speaker 1]
I was that kid.
00:20:30 [Speaker 2]
Time control is the only thing I need.
00:20:33 [Speaker 2]
Everything else is okay.
00:20:34 [Speaker 1]
But jeez, please give
00:20:35 [Speaker 2]
me time
00:20:35 [Speaker 1]
control.
00:20:37 [Speaker 1]
I always go for teleportation.
00:20:38 [Speaker 1]
I feel like that would speed up my life
00:20:40 [Speaker 2]
a lot.
00:20:41 [Speaker 1]
But how do you go about, like, designing experiences that that give the same almost outcome that come about naturally?
00:20:49 [Speaker 1]
I don't know if that makes any sense.
00:20:51 [Speaker 2]
I think it does.
00:20:53 [Speaker 2]
Because when we when we play games as children, we start out with a very sort of, shared space, and we have to negotiate every bit.
00:21:04 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:21:05 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:21:05 [Speaker 2]
But we are not yet in a place where we want rules and constraints on that because we're forming them for ourselves, because we're also in that age.
00:21:14 [Speaker 2]
And I'm thinking here of, like, three to seven.
00:21:19 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:21:20 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:21:20 [Speaker 2]
Little kids.
00:21:21 [Speaker 2]
I'm saying right a lot.
00:21:24 [Speaker 2]
Sorry about that.
00:21:25 [Speaker 1]
Okay.
00:21:25 [Speaker 1]
It's okay.
00:21:28 [Speaker 2]
When we're in that really early stage, there's a thought still going on.
00:21:33 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:21:34 [Speaker 2]
We're creating a reality in a way.
00:21:36 [Speaker 2]
We can convince ourselves and each other, like, no, don't open that box.
00:21:40 [Speaker 2]
There's pure evil in that box.
00:21:43 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:21:43 [Speaker 2]
Because we can convince ourselves.
00:21:44 [Speaker 2]
Then we go through, beginning to lose our teeth and our brains change, and we go into this very, like, good, bad, black, white.
00:21:53 [Speaker 1]
You
00:21:53 [Speaker 2]
know, there is there is, absolutes.
00:21:56 [Speaker 2]
And we need rules.
00:21:57 [Speaker 2]
Because that's when suddenly, you know, cops and robbers, like, oh, you, I got you.
00:22:03 [Speaker 2]
No, you didn't.
00:22:03 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:22:04 [Speaker 2]
And then you have to bring in something that proves that you did or didn't.
00:22:09 [Speaker 2]
Like, now do we have, you know, do we have boffer swords?
00:22:12 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:22:13 [Speaker 2]
Do we have little suction dart guns?
00:22:15 [Speaker 1]
Do we
00:22:15 [Speaker 2]
have nerf guns?
00:22:16 [Speaker 2]
Do we have how do we know that you got me or not?
00:22:19 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:22:19 [Speaker 2]
And then there's a whole question of, if we don't have those, what do we do?
00:22:24 [Speaker 2]
That's where the need for rules comes in.
00:22:27 [Speaker 2]
Then we go through brain change again, when we go through adolescence and we can start to understand nuance and shades of gray again.
00:22:35 [Speaker 2]
But we don't often update the rules in a way.
00:22:39 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:22:39 [Speaker 1]
You
00:22:39 [Speaker 2]
know, there there's a harder thing.
00:22:41 [Speaker 2]
We want more complexity.
00:22:42 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:22:43 [Speaker 2]
And then you have Dungeons and Dragons and other role playing games.
00:22:45 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:22:46 [Speaker 2]
How do I do this?
00:22:47 [Speaker 2]
How do I negotiate a situation?
00:22:49 [Speaker 2]
How do I be diplomatic in a tense scene?
00:22:52 [Speaker 2]
How do I how do I how do I be sneaky?
00:22:56 [Speaker 2]
How do I how do I reveal a mister?
00:22:58 [Speaker 2]
Like, all these all these different things.
00:23:01 [Speaker 2]
And that is a harder, longer process.
00:23:05 [Speaker 2]
So we wind up creating the rules we need and then needing to get back to the place where we can just play games.
00:23:12 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:23:13 [Speaker 2]
I mean, like, oh, I don't really need as much of these rules.
00:23:16 [Speaker 2]
I need to understand the framework.
00:23:18 [Speaker 2]
And so that's where, as a designer Mhmm.
00:23:20 [Speaker 2]
I'm looking at the framework.
00:23:22 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:23:22 [Speaker 2]
I'm looking at, okay, if you want to play post apocalyptic badasses Mhmm.
00:23:28 [Speaker 2]
Doing amazing things and sometimes it goes catastrophically wrong, here's what I you know, here's the tech the sort of technological that's that I need.
00:23:39 [Speaker 2]
It's in the the tech Mechanical?
00:23:41 [Speaker 2]
The mechanical.
00:23:41 [Speaker 2]
It's not mechanical.
00:23:42 [Speaker 2]
It's the, technical writing of how to do the thing.
00:23:47 [Speaker 1]
Like, okay.
00:23:47 [Speaker 2]
So this is it.
00:23:48 [Speaker 2]
It.
00:23:48 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:23:48 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:23:49 [Speaker 2]
Apocalyps.
00:23:50 [Speaker 1]
Wow.
00:23:51 [Speaker 1]
Beautiful.
00:23:51 [Speaker 2]
Thank you.
00:23:52 [Speaker 2]
You can get that on You can order this from me.
00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
You this is second edition.
00:23:57 [Speaker 2]
We're we just kick started third edition.
00:23:58 [Speaker 2]
Version.
00:23:59 [Speaker 2]
That was the picture.
00:24:00 [Speaker 2]
And so that was the kick starter that just came out.
00:24:03 [Speaker 2]
Apocalypse world.
00:24:04 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:24:04 [Speaker 2]
That's what it is.
00:24:05 [Speaker 2]
You get to be exactly what I said.
00:24:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:24:08 [Speaker 2]
Post apocalyptic.
00:24:10 [Speaker 2]
This is the technical manual.
00:24:11 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:24:11 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, okay.
00:24:12 [Speaker 2]
If you wanna tell stories like this, this is the book for you.
00:24:16 [Speaker 2]
If you wanna tell stories where you are just playing little sweet
00:24:23 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:24:23 [Speaker 1]
You
00:24:23 [Speaker 2]
know, games with anybody
00:24:25 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:24:25 [Speaker 2]
Like your four year old niece or your grandfather or your, you know, friend from another place who doesn't really play role playing games.
00:24:35 [Speaker 2]
I've got eight little games here for you.
00:24:37 [Speaker 2]
Because it's the thing that role playing games now, there's so and they're so different that you really need to think of each, oops, each one as being sort of, the framework for that kind of stories.
00:24:53 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:24:53 [Speaker 2]
You can't it's so okay.
00:24:55 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:24:55 [Speaker 2]
If you to to use a sports analogy, right, which I think works here.
00:25:00 [Speaker 2]
We like sportsy.
00:25:01 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:25:02 [Speaker 2]
If you try to play football with a basketball Mhmm.
00:25:09 [Speaker 2]
You're not playing football or basketball.
00:25:11 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:25:12 [Speaker 1]
You're playing a new thing.
00:25:13 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:25:14 [Speaker 2]
Which is great.
00:25:14 [Speaker 2]
Maybe that's fun.
00:25:16 [Speaker 2]
Someone should try it.
00:25:17 [Speaker 2]
But you can't use all sports equipment to play all sports Mhmm.
00:25:23 [Speaker 2]
In the same way that you can't use all role playing games to play all role playing games.
00:25:29 [Speaker 2]
Each one is designed to do the thing.
00:25:32 [Speaker 2]
You know, where the Olympics are going on.
00:25:34 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:25:36 [Speaker 2]
Ice skating, speed skating looks like that, does that.
00:25:40 [Speaker 2]
Triathlon does that.
00:25:44 [Speaker 2]
So this that's like my simple call.
00:25:46 [Speaker 2]
Like, hey, system does matter.
00:25:48 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:25:49 [Speaker 1]
And
00:25:49 [Speaker 2]
when you're designing games, you're thinking about all these things.
00:25:51 [Speaker 2]
You're thinking about the physical object, in terms of size, layout, and Yeah.
00:25:56 [Speaker 2]
All those things, and how wide the margins are, and what's paperweight and all those things we talked about before.
00:26:01 [Speaker 2]
You're thinking about, the word choice
00:26:04 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:26:05 [Speaker 2]
Because there has to be a voice for each game.
00:26:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:26:08 [Speaker 2]
How am I conveying this to the best of my ability?
00:26:11 [Speaker 2]
You're thinking about the rules and the mechanics and everything.
00:26:13 [Speaker 2]
Like, what is the shape of the space I'm trying to create?
00:26:17 [Speaker 2]
And it's a space that you have to fill.
00:26:19 [Speaker 2]
Like, if we look at this room, this room creates a certain space.
00:26:24 [Speaker 2]
You define a certain space here by what sits on the wall, by the lighting, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
00:26:30 [Speaker 2]
If we went to a different room on campus that was the same exact footprint,
00:26:34 [Speaker 1]
it
00:26:34 [Speaker 2]
would be a different space because it was designed differently.
00:26:37 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:26:38 [Speaker 2]
That's what the same, I think.
00:26:41 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:26:41 [Speaker 1]
I might have asked this before, so apologies if anyone's double listening and hearing this.
00:26:46 [Speaker 1]
I think the most interesting thing is, like, designing a set of rules that allow for freedom Mhmm.
00:26:53 [Speaker 1]
And, like, how you how you walk that that tight rope.
00:26:56 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:26:57 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:26:58 [Speaker 2]
That's a really great question.
00:27:00 [Speaker 2]
I think that the biggest thing is to be aware be aware of the space.
00:27:06 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:06 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:27:06 [Speaker 2]
I'm creating a space for things to happen.
00:27:09 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:10 [Speaker 2]
I'm not trying to fill in the whole space.
00:27:12 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:13 [Speaker 2]
If I come to a role playing game, if I'm trying to design a game and I realize that I want to be in poem or something else.
00:27:29 [Speaker 2]
I need to be writing the technical manual
00:27:33 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:27:34 [Speaker 2]
For the the the the tools for that space.
00:27:42 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:42 [Speaker 1]
You
00:27:42 [Speaker 2]
know, the technical manual for, soundboard is different than the technical manual for a microwave.
00:27:48 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:49 [Speaker 2]
I need to be writing the technical manual as clearly as possible, communicate my vision as clearly as possible, and then allow for space.
00:27:59 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:27:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:59 [Speaker 2]
So, so, yeah.
00:28:00 [Speaker 2]
It's a tightrope.
00:28:01 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:28:02 [Speaker 2]
And I I think part of it is just being aware of the tight rope.
00:28:04 [Speaker 2]
And if you're aware of the tight rope, then you're gonna do a better job
00:28:07 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:28:08 [Speaker 2]
At navigating that tight rope and making the decisions you need to make.
00:28:12 [Speaker 2]
So that when you realize you are filling in too much space, you back out of it.
00:28:16 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:28:16 [Speaker 2]
And when you realize, oh, there's a giant gap here, you fill it in.
00:28:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:28:20 [Speaker 2]
And that's why you need other people to read your drafts, and that's why you need to do rigorous play testing and things like that to find out.
00:28:27 [Speaker 2]
There's also, like, that awareness of that, the three sided triangle of, the words Mhmm.
00:28:34 [Speaker 2]
You're designing, the technical document you're designing, and the experience you're hoping to create a framework for.
00:28:45 [Speaker 2]
If you you may not know that one of those pieces is missing Yeah.
00:28:50 [Speaker 2]
Until further down the road.
00:28:51 [Speaker 2]
Like, you know, because you can have a document that goes out in the game, people play it, and it's great.
00:28:57 [Speaker 2]
And then if you haven't tested it for the technical writing, there could there's gonna be a point where you're like, wait a minute.
00:29:04 [Speaker 2]
Actually write down this rule.
00:29:05 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:05 [Speaker 2]
There is no rule here.
00:29:07 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:29:07 [Speaker 2]
I don't know what to do.
00:29:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:29:08 [Speaker 1]
And if
00:29:08 [Speaker 2]
you're not sitting here running your game for me, you know, that's a big thing.
00:29:12 [Speaker 2]
Like have other people play games.
00:29:14 [Speaker 2]
Other people are in
00:29:15 [Speaker 1]
the games.
00:29:16 [Speaker 1]
I think that's a lot of the pitfalls of games people don't wanna play is, like, the rules just don't make sense.
00:29:22 [Speaker 1]
Or they're just kind of like, this is clunky.
00:29:24 [Speaker 1]
This is not a natural feeling experience.
00:29:27 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:29:28 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:29:28 [Speaker 1]
Like, there are games that have pretty strict rules or are kind of harder that are fun to play.
00:29:33 [Speaker 1]
Sure.
00:29:33 [Speaker 1]
And and you're playing and you're like, this makes sense.
00:29:35 [Speaker 1]
Call it Cthulhu.
00:29:36 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:29:36 [Speaker 1]
Probably not the hardest one out there, but So it's funny.
00:29:39 [Speaker 1]
It's it's stricter than, like, what I am used to playing.
00:29:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:42 [Speaker 1]
But I still enjoy that experience because it all makes sense to to me as a player.
00:29:46 [Speaker 1]
Right.
00:29:47 [Speaker 1]
But some other games don't have that almost natural playing ability.
00:29:54 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:29:54 [Speaker 1]
And kinda how do you again, how do you find, like, when you're writing?
00:29:59 [Speaker 1]
Because I know there's play testing that that that will help find those things that I think every every store, everything you make will have, you know, kinks and then hiccups, some sort of hiccups.
00:30:09 [Speaker 2]
But that works.
00:30:10 [Speaker 2]
I think it works.
00:30:11 [Speaker 1]
It it does.
00:30:13 [Speaker 1]
How do you like, when you're thinking about a game, are you actively thinking about, like, those kind of the natural play of the game.
00:30:23 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:23 [Speaker 2]
And, like, where it's gonna break down.
00:30:24 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:30:24 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:30:25 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:25 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:30:26 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:27 [Speaker 2]
So in my game design, you know, Vincent and I wind up doing game design where, we play test early, like, really early.
00:30:34 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:34 [Speaker 2]
And, like, oh, I think maybe this.
00:30:35 [Speaker 2]
Let's run through this move real quick.
00:30:37 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:38 [Speaker 2]
Outside of what we might think of, like, a whole play test session.
00:30:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:41 [Speaker 2]
Like, we'll play test.
00:30:42 [Speaker 2]
Like, okay, let's just roll these dice five times and see
00:30:45 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:30:45 [Speaker 2]
Or whatever.
00:30:47 [Speaker 2]
Or any any part of little, little piece because we wanna hit all of those places where the gears grind really quickly.
00:30:54 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:56 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:30:57 [Speaker 2]
It's please, God.
00:31:00 [Speaker 2]
And then when a game breaks down somewhere, we wanna know.
00:31:03 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:31:03 [Speaker 2]
And be like, do we how do we what do we adjust here?
00:31:06 [Speaker 2]
We have games that, you know, our game in Wicked Age, which is very sort of Babylonian, Mesopotamian reincarnation Yeah.
00:31:17 [Speaker 2]
Storytelling thing.
00:31:18 [Speaker 2]
It's great.
00:31:19 [Speaker 2]
I love it.
00:31:20 [Speaker 2]
But out for a couple years and we're like, ah, it keeps hitting this hitch.
00:31:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:25 [Speaker 2]
So now it's not in print because maybe we'll get back and try to figure out what's hitching up there because it keeps catching in a way that is not satisfying.
00:31:34 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:31:35 [Speaker 2]
So, yeah.
00:31:37 [Speaker 2]
That is definitely part of the design Yeah.
00:31:40 [Speaker 2]
Work, is thinking about where is it gonna break down, Who is it gonna break down for?
00:31:47 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:31:47 [Speaker 1]
You know,
00:31:47 [Speaker 2]
is this gonna break down for everybody?
00:31:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:31:50 [Speaker 2]
Or is this gonna break down some places?
00:31:52 [Speaker 2]
And what you alluded to just now is that, like, some texts are hard to get into.
00:31:56 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:31:56 [Speaker 2]
Like, some things are just it's heavy.
00:31:59 [Speaker 2]
This is a thing that we have seen develop in the past, you know, forty years.
00:32:05 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:32:05 [Speaker 2]
Maybe a little longer.
00:32:06 [Speaker 2]
We'll call it, you know, since since the beginning, that you also have to realize when you're writing a manual for like, I love that.
00:32:15 [Speaker 2]
The Italian community, they're referred to as game manuals.
00:32:18 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:32:19 [Speaker 2]
And I love that.
00:32:19 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:32:19 [Speaker 2]
Because that's
00:32:20 [Speaker 1]
what it is, demanding for
00:32:21 [Speaker 2]
how to do a thing.
00:32:24 [Speaker 2]
And they have come you have more and more into a place where this is also something you read.
00:32:30 [Speaker 2]
It has to be pleasant to read.
00:32:32 [Speaker 2]
It has to welcome the reader in.
00:32:33 [Speaker 2]
It has to orient the reader to the text and how to move through the text in a way that they can find what they need.
00:32:40 [Speaker 2]
And that, like, goes right to your, you know, your your podcast Yeah.
00:32:46 [Speaker 2]
Title of, like, talking about, you know, the sense of how what is the style of the book?
00:32:51 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:51 [Speaker 2]
What is the format?
00:32:53 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:53 [Speaker 2]
What is the the how do things
00:32:55 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:32:56 [Speaker 2]
Do you have an index?
00:32:57 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:58 [Speaker 2]
Do you have a table of contents?
00:32:59 [Speaker 2]
Because I have seen many role playing games that have neither.
00:33:03 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, how if I don't memorize this
00:33:06 [Speaker 1]
How do I know?
00:33:07 [Speaker 2]
How do I know?
00:33:07 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:33:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:33:08 [Speaker 1]
I've had pitfalls where I've been interested in the story, but it just you read through and you're like, this is a lot.
00:33:14 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:33:14 [Speaker 1]
And I can't navigate it easily.
00:33:16 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:33:17 [Speaker 1]
And especially if you're if you're a game master.
00:33:19 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:33:20 [Speaker 1]
You gotta navigate that on the spot sometimes.
00:33:21 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:33:22 [Speaker 1]
If it's not oh my god.
00:33:24 [Speaker 1]
I almost said easy, but there's a word for it.
00:33:26 [Speaker 1]
Intuitive?
00:33:27 [Speaker 1]
Intuitive.
00:33:28 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:33:28 [Speaker 1]
I should know that.
00:33:29 [Speaker 1]
Intuitive design.
00:33:30 [Speaker 1]
We talk about that, when developing apps and websites.
00:33:33 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:33:33 [Speaker 1]
Because if it's not intuitive, no one's gonna use it.
00:33:36 [Speaker 1]
Someone's gonna click off of your your site or your app.
00:33:39 [Speaker 1]
I think that's the very same with with games.
00:33:41 [Speaker 1]
If it's, like, if I'm stressing finding, like, a monster or a villain I have to get the stats of Yeah.
00:33:49 [Speaker 1]
I'm not gonna wanna even play the rest of the game.
00:33:51 [Speaker 1]
Right.
00:33:51 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:33:51 [Speaker 1]
Right.
00:33:51 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:33:52 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:33:52 [Speaker 2]
And that thing about it being intuitive design, like, we have to remember we're all human.
00:33:56 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:33:56 [Speaker 2]
And everybody who's gonna interact with anything is also human.
00:33:59 [Speaker 1]
Uh-huh.
00:34:00 [Speaker 2]
So I think it's great that you bring in apps, because I have been thinking a little bit through all of this also of, like, video games.
00:34:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:34:08 [Speaker 2]
And what to our early your earlier question, video games that video games that are co op versus video video games that are solo.
00:34:15 [Speaker 2]
What is fun about each?
00:34:17 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:34:17 [Speaker 2]
And what is the user interface that makes things easy or hard?
00:34:22 [Speaker 2]
Not easy or hard in that kind of talk about things that make, accessible, approachable so that more people engage with them.
00:34:28 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:34:29 [Speaker 2]
Or challenging off putting so that fewer people would engage engage with them.
00:34:33 [Speaker 2]
Or, and here's the real magic, challenging so that people will engage with them.
00:34:38 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:34:39 [Speaker 2]
That is a hard, beautiful place to hit of making it so that people want to keep trying to
00:34:48 [Speaker 1]
make
00:34:48 [Speaker 2]
that puzzle, like Roblox.
00:34:50 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:34:50 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:34:51 [Speaker 2]
My goodness.
00:34:52 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:34:52 [Speaker 2]
I don't have time for that.
00:34:54 [Speaker 2]
But Yeah.
00:34:55 [Speaker 2]
I I appreciate them a lot.
00:34:57 [Speaker 1]
Not my cup of tea, but Yeah.
00:34:59 [Speaker 1]
But, yeah, we talking about video games, a lot of the most common, like I think I mentioned this before.
00:35:06 [Speaker 1]
The only the only name I know that that is called friend slop games, but that seems very derogatory, and I don't wanna use that word.
00:35:12 [Speaker 2]
There's a lot of of slop going on these days, and I'm like, do you really mean that?
00:35:16 [Speaker 2]
I don't know if you really mean
00:35:17 [Speaker 1]
that.
00:35:17 [Speaker 1]
Some things I would consider Yeah.
00:35:19 [Speaker 1]
Slop like.
00:35:20 [Speaker 1]
But some of these some of these games
00:35:23 [Speaker 2]
The new design brief, slop like.
00:35:26 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:35:27 [Speaker 1]
I don't think anyone ever aims for that, but it sometimes tends to end up that way.
00:35:31 [Speaker 1]
But with these games that are multiplayer up to what?
00:35:34 [Speaker 1]
Like, five plus players sometimes.
00:35:36 [Speaker 1]
I'm thinking about the games that I play with my friends, Lethal Company and Repo Mhmm.
00:35:40 [Speaker 1]
That you kind of there isn't a final goal.
00:35:44 [Speaker 1]
There there there are games that when you play them, if you don't know, you're collecting things and you're trying to get as much money as you can.
00:35:49 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:49 [Speaker 1]
But if you die, you die.
00:35:50 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:35:50 [Speaker 1]
If you fail, you fail, and you go back to level one.
00:35:52 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:52 [Speaker 1]
But there's not an end level you're supposed to get to.
00:35:54 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:55 [Speaker 1]
And I originally thought that I wouldn't enjoy that because I like achievements.
00:35:58 [Speaker 1]
Sure.
00:35:58 [Speaker 1]
I like seeing the little ding at the bottom of my window.
00:36:01 [Speaker 1]
But when I'm playing with my friends, we just wanna get to the goal Yeah.
00:36:05 [Speaker 1]
Fail and then get higher.
00:36:06 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:36:06 [Speaker 1]
And multiple times, even if there isn't an end goal, it's just the fact that we're all working together for a very simple thing.
00:36:13 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:36:14 [Speaker 1]
It's simple.
00:36:15 [Speaker 1]
The controls are pretty easy to learn, and it's I don't have to use a lot of my I have to use my brain.
00:36:20 [Speaker 1]
But sometimes in other multiplayer games, it's like, I have to really think through this.
00:36:25 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:36:26 [Speaker 1]
And I don't wanna do that sometimes.
00:36:27 [Speaker 2]
Totally.
00:36:28 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:36:28 [Speaker 2]
And there's, like, one of the things you like, in what you just said, that, like, the the communal element Mhmm.
00:36:35 [Speaker 2]
Of playing something together.
00:36:36 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:36:36 [Speaker 2]
This is gonna be fun Mhmm.
00:36:37 [Speaker 2]
And challenging.
00:36:38 [Speaker 2]
We're all gonna die, but it's gonna be fine.
00:36:40 [Speaker 1]
We're gonna try again.
00:36:40 [Speaker 1]
We're gonna
00:36:41 [Speaker 2]
do it together.
00:36:41 [Speaker 2]
Like, hunt showdown is getting a lot of play in ours.
00:36:44 [Speaker 2]
And, like, in our household these days.
00:36:46 [Speaker 2]
And when a round of hunt showdown starts, there's like a two chants that happen.
00:36:52 [Speaker 2]
And one is, we will win this.
00:36:53 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:36:54 [Speaker 2]
Like, rarely.
00:36:57 [Speaker 2]
But but, you know, you gotta love the energy.
00:36:59 [Speaker 2]
And the other is, who dies first?
00:37:01 [Speaker 2]
And then Yeah.
00:37:01 [Speaker 2]
The people playing pick which among them, it's like, oh, I die first.
00:37:06 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:37:06 [Speaker 2]
Like, okay.
00:37:07 [Speaker 2]
Because it's it is the communal effort.
00:37:11 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:37:11 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:37:11 [Speaker 2]
And that reinforces communal effort in every other area.
00:37:16 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:37:16 [Speaker 2]
If you have anything porting the idea that we work together to do hard things Mhmm.
00:37:21 [Speaker 2]
Or we work together to get through hard things, or we work together to solve puzzles and figure out peak is another one.
00:37:29 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:37:29 [Speaker 2]
How are we gonna get there?
00:37:30 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:37:30 [Speaker 2]
You know, if we practice scaffolding that through games, it, it is usable across into other aspects of our life.
00:37:41 [Speaker 2]
Like, alright.
00:37:42 [Speaker 2]
We have figured out how to deal with resource management and peak Mhmm.
00:37:46 [Speaker 2]
And find the solution.
00:37:48 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:37:49 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we can figure out some resource management in our town and to help there be more food for people who need it because, boy, I really needed that candy bar.
00:37:58 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:37:59 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's they're they're not separate.
00:38:01 [Speaker 2]
We're we we don't need to separate out games, whether it's role playing games or, video games or sports Mhmm.
00:38:11 [Speaker 2]
Or playground games or whatever.
00:38:13 [Speaker 2]
We don't need to separate these out from our the rest of our lives.
00:38:17 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:38:17 [Speaker 2]
They're part of our lives.
00:38:19 [Speaker 2]
They everything helps who we are, who our communities are, how we navigate terrible times
00:38:25 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:38:26 [Speaker 2]
And whether we are going to be in a workably healthy
00:38:36 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:38:36 [Speaker 2]
Mental space Mhmm.
00:38:38 [Speaker 2]
On the other side of whatever the crisis is.
00:38:40 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:38:40 [Speaker 2]
Because we all wanna get there, and we want as many people around us to be there too.
00:38:46 [Speaker 2]
It is in our beneficial self interest to have a a healthy sustainable Yeah.
00:38:52 [Speaker 2]
Community.
00:38:53 [Speaker 2]
Because if one of us breaks a leg
00:38:55 [Speaker 1]
Uh-huh.
00:38:56 [Speaker 2]
We need someone who's gonna help us.
00:38:58 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:38:58 [Speaker 2]
And that's just, like, if you go back in the archaeological record, that's one of the earliest signs of a healthy Yeah.
00:39:04 [Speaker 2]
Community is someone who has a healed femur.
00:39:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:09 [Speaker 2]
Because you cannot take care of yourself if you break your femur.
00:39:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:13 [Speaker 2]
You have to have someone help you.
00:39:15 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:16 [Speaker 2]
And that's when we when we see that in the in the archaeological record, we're like, Mhmm.
00:39:23 [Speaker 2]
Great.
00:39:23 [Speaker 2]
Healed he healed major injuries.
00:39:25 [Speaker 2]
Good sign of a healthy community.
00:39:28 [Speaker 1]
And all when I'm hurt, I also play games.
00:39:30 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:39:30 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:39:31 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:39:31 [Speaker 2]
But on two sides, two places.
00:39:33 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:39:33 [Speaker 2]
Because when we are hurt, if you are physically less able Mhmm.
00:39:37 [Speaker 2]
And you're like, okay, I've gotta lay in bed Mhmm.
00:39:39 [Speaker 2]
For three weeks Yeah.
00:39:41 [Speaker 2]
Or however long.
00:39:43 [Speaker 2]
Games as well helps your brain from
00:39:45 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:39:45 [Speaker 2]
Like chewing on itself.
00:39:47 [Speaker 2]
And when we are hurting emotionally
00:39:50 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:39:50 [Speaker 2]
And we can play a game that helps us be in a different emotional space
00:39:55 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:39:55 [Speaker 2]
Helps relieve that pain and pressure.
00:39:58 [Speaker 2]
And we can, remind ourselves on, like, a deep brain feedback loop way that the pain in the moment is not the entirety of our existence.
00:40:09 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:10 [Speaker 2]
Because when we are in pain, emotional, mental, spiritual, physical, when we are in pain, it is easy to get stuck in that place where this is the entirety of my life.
00:40:20 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:20 [Speaker 2]
This is all there is.
00:40:21 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:22 [Speaker 2]
Because we're dealing with the now.
00:40:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:24 [Speaker 2]
And it takes a little bit of brain space to go, this is a moment of my life.
00:40:29 [Speaker 2]
This now is hard.
00:40:31 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:32 [Speaker 2]
And, like, this now is really hard.
00:40:33 [Speaker 2]
Out there in the world, it's a hard now.
00:40:36 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:39 [Speaker 2]
But many of us remember before 2020.
00:40:45 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:47 [Speaker 2]
Like, a lot of us remember before 1990.
00:40:51 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:40:52 [Speaker 2]
You know, we remember a before.
00:40:54 [Speaker 2]
Some of us remember before 1970.
00:40:58 [Speaker 2]
Like, some of them can look back in history from a lived experience and go, this this is the comparison.
00:41:05 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we we have that onus on us if if we have lived longer to carry that forward and help everybody remember it.
00:41:14 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:41:15 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:41:15 [Speaker 2]
You were born in 2004.
00:41:18 [Speaker 2]
'4.
00:41:19 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:41:19 [Speaker 1]
2004, baby.
00:41:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:41:21 [Speaker 2]
So I have I'm gonna about to be 55.
00:41:25 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:41:25 [Speaker 2]
I have a an ethical option Mhmm.
00:41:31 [Speaker 2]
To remember for you and your entire cadre Mhmm.
00:41:38 [Speaker 2]
What what it was like Mhmm.
00:41:40 [Speaker 2]
In the nineties or the eighties or the seventies.
00:41:42 [Speaker 2]
I have an obligation.
00:41:44 [Speaker 2]
Even though, like, I was a little tiny child Mhmm.
00:41:48 [Speaker 2]
In the, civil rights era.
00:41:51 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:41:51 [Speaker 2]
Like, I was, what, 18 old when Roe v Wade was passed.
00:41:56 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:41:57 [Speaker 2]
I have to remember that for you because it it's been taken.
00:42:02 [Speaker 2]
But I have to remember that it got there, that we did that.
00:42:05 [Speaker 2]
I have to remember 2015, passing the right to marry.
00:42:08 [Speaker 2]
I have to remember that for you because of the need to have a broader community than your own experience.
00:42:15 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:42:16 [Speaker 2]
And that is part of what games do.
00:42:18 [Speaker 2]
It builds on that.
00:42:20 [Speaker 2]
Like, if I play a whole bunch of different games, I have a whole bunch of different experience.
00:42:25 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:42:25 [Speaker 2]
If I have a whole bunch of different experiences, my in my lived experience as a person
00:42:30 [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
00:42:30 [Speaker 2]
I can bring that to my games.
00:42:31 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:42:31 [Speaker 2]
And I can bring that to my game design.
00:42:33 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:42:34 [Speaker 2]
And so I feel like this question, these wonderful questions about games and community and games as agency of community, it's so intermeshed Mhmm.
00:42:43 [Speaker 2]
For me, that I feel like we're we're examining different facets of it.
00:42:48 [Speaker 2]
It's really nice.
00:42:50 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:42:51 [Speaker 2]
I had a question.
00:42:52 [Speaker 2]
Oh my goodness.
00:42:53 [Speaker 2]
And then it fell.
00:43:00 [Speaker 1]
Go for it.
00:43:00 [Speaker 1]
Cut this out because I can't oh my goodness.
00:43:03 [Speaker 2]
That's okay.
00:43:03 [Speaker 1]
I had it, and then I looked down, and then it it went away.
00:43:05 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:43:06 [Speaker 2]
Well, we can try to back up your mind.
00:43:09 [Speaker 2]
Is it the dream where you're standing on a period pyramid in sun god robes, and there's thousands of naked people screaming and throwing at you?
00:43:15 [Speaker 1]
I don't think that one
00:43:16 [Speaker 2]
Why am I the only one who
00:43:17 [Speaker 1]
has that?
00:43:18 [Speaker 1]
Had weird dreams recently, and I don't know what to feel about that, personally.
00:43:22 [Speaker 1]
I did have one that I thought was really prophetic, but I couldn't understand what it was Mhmm.
00:43:27 [Speaker 1]
Recently, where there was rattlesnakes in my yard, and there was a black panther at my door that wouldn't let me out into the yard to go kill the rattlesnakes.
00:43:35 [Speaker 1]
And that felt very important to me.
00:43:37 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:43:37 [Speaker 1]
But I haven't examined it fully yet.
00:43:39 [Speaker 2]
Was it a sick ass panther?
00:43:40 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:43:41 [Speaker 1]
It was, like, really cool.
00:43:42 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:42 [Speaker 1]
It was, like, it was, like, one of those, like, really crouched and,
00:43:45 [Speaker 2]
like Yep.
00:43:45 [Speaker 2]
Yep.
00:43:45 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:43:45 [Speaker 1]
That's that's the one.
00:43:46 [Speaker 2]
That is why it has that name.
00:43:49 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:49 [Speaker 2]
It is iconic.
00:43:50 [Speaker 2]
Anyway, yes.
00:43:52 [Speaker 2]
How's your question, Anne, going?
00:43:53 [Speaker 2]
Get your
00:43:54 [Speaker 1]
I don't know if that even helped me explaining my dreams, but I think I can find another question, though.
00:43:58 [Speaker 1]
But I think, actually, with dreams Yeah.
00:44:02 [Speaker 1]
I think games can allow people to experience dreams coming to fruition Yes.
00:44:09 [Speaker 1]
In a way that sometimes life doesn't let us.
00:44:12 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:44:12 [Speaker 2]
Absolutely.
00:44:13 [Speaker 1]
Because when, like, the boots on our neck and we can't I feel like we can't do anything.
00:44:18 [Speaker 1]
Like, we're just in a job or in school or so many different things, we feel like we can't accomplish Yep.
00:44:24 [Speaker 1]
Something really meaningful.
00:44:26 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:44:26 [Speaker 1]
And I feel like with with especially with tabletop role playing games, a lot of a lot of the stories are pretty life and death worldwide.
00:44:34 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:44:35 [Speaker 1]
At least ours are.
00:44:36 [Speaker 1]
It's like a city has been it's been a good destroyed.
00:44:39 [Speaker 1]
Or you have to bring it back or you have to do this or that or you get this sense of, like, overarching accomplishment of humanity Yeah.
00:44:47 [Speaker 1]
That we do not get on a day to day that I think people crave, especially in times of stress.
00:44:53 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:44:53 [Speaker 1]
And I think it helps us stay hopeful Yeah.
00:44:56 [Speaker 1]
When perhaps otherwise we wouldn't be.
00:44:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:44:59 [Speaker 2]
There's a really interesting thing there.
00:45:00 [Speaker 2]
I think there's three points.
00:45:02 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna try to remember all of them.
00:45:03 [Speaker 2]
One is definitely games as wish fulfillment is true.
00:45:06 [Speaker 2]
Like, pretending to be have superpowers
00:45:08 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:45:08 [Speaker 2]
And save the world.
00:45:09 [Speaker 1]
That's awesome.
00:45:10 [Speaker 2]
You know, we love that.
00:45:12 [Speaker 2]
Games as, like, I want to be able to solve puzzles.
00:45:16 [Speaker 2]
I wanna be able to solve hard things in my real life, but I can't.
00:45:20 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:45:20 [Speaker 2]
So please, experience solving the Yeah.
00:45:24 [Speaker 2]
The hard thing.
00:45:26 [Speaker 2]
There's also the piece about oh, see, my turn.
00:45:37 [Speaker 2]
It fell out.
00:45:37 [Speaker 2]
I had a three
00:45:38 [Speaker 1]
I had
00:45:38 [Speaker 2]
a third thing.
00:45:39 [Speaker 1]
It just goes you look down and it goes away.
00:45:40 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:45:40 [Speaker 2]
It does.
00:45:41 [Speaker 2]
So, like, the piece of having a having a dream, of saving the world.
00:45:52 [Speaker 2]
Reality like, that's something that we don't we don't get to do.
00:45:55 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:45:55 [Speaker 2]
Nobody gets to do that.
00:45:56 [Speaker 2]
Like, Jonas Salk maybe got to do that.
00:46:00 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:46:00 [Speaker 2]
And now we are having people try to undo the the importance of vaccines.
00:46:05 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:46:08 [Speaker 2]
So one of the things that role playing games let us do is have those superhuman experiences that we're actually never going to have.
00:46:19 [Speaker 2]
And then we have to figure out how to move from that magical thinking space, fingers from childhood of like, what if I was the chosen one?
00:46:28 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:46:29 [Speaker 2]
What if I could do it all?
00:46:31 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:46:32 [Speaker 2]
And resolve within ourselves over and over our own simple mortality.
00:46:39 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:46:39 [Speaker 2]
That the truth is when we get hurt, we get hurt.
00:46:44 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:46:44 [Speaker 2]
It's not just a hit hit box Yeah.
00:46:46 [Speaker 2]
Check.
00:46:47 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:46:47 [Speaker 2]
It's it's like like, right now, I am dealing with some really horrible Mhmm.
00:46:53 [Speaker 2]
Trigger thumb thing where I don't have full use of my thumb.
00:46:56 [Speaker 2]
That sucks.
00:46:58 [Speaker 2]
So one of the things that we have to do with real quick You
00:47:01 [Speaker 1]
can't just long rest.
00:47:03 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:47:03 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:47:03 [Speaker 2]
I can't dang.
00:47:04 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:47:05 [Speaker 2]
I can't fast travel.
00:47:07 [Speaker 2]
Why?
00:47:07 [Speaker 2]
I can't double jump.
00:47:08 [Speaker 2]
What the most basic thing.
00:47:10 [Speaker 2]
I wanna double jump.
00:47:11 [Speaker 2]
Actually double jump.
00:47:13 [Speaker 2]
But that sort of thing where we have to reconcile ourselves with our humanity and the limits of our humanity, allow I like, the goal, I hope, is to play is to play so that we have that wish fulfillment Mhmm.
00:47:30 [Speaker 2]
In a way and we that helps us scaffold things we can do and do like, have access to, like, community building or, oh, I have more confidence now.
00:47:39 [Speaker 2]
Or, oh, I figured out a thing.
00:47:40 [Speaker 2]
Or, oh, man.
00:47:41 [Speaker 2]
I really did a deep dive because I really needed to know
00:47:45 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:47:45 [Speaker 2]
For my, you know, character.
00:47:47 [Speaker 2]
I really needed to know a thing.
00:47:48 [Speaker 2]
And now I discovered, oh, I I actually really like this.
00:47:51 [Speaker 2]
And now I have a new hobby.
00:47:52 [Speaker 2]
And now I have new whatever whatever, you know, on and on down the road.
00:47:55 [Speaker 2]
But that piece of how do we reconcile that this is our one life?
00:48:02 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:48:03 [Speaker 2]
You know, we don't have do overs.
00:48:06 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:48:06 [Speaker 2]
You know, how do we reconcile that?
00:48:08 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:48:08 [Speaker 2]
In role playing games.
00:48:10 [Speaker 2]
How do we reconcile that in our world?
00:48:11 [Speaker 2]
And, like, modeling, practicing what we want to do with our lives and thinking about role playing games is amazing.
00:48:19 [Speaker 2]
And there's a piece there that's important, which is we don't have to do everything.
00:48:24 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:48:25 [Speaker 2]
I feel like from my lifetime, in role playing games, but also in other media, movies, books
00:48:31 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:48:32 [Speaker 2]
Especially, and role playing and role playing games, but also like video games.
00:48:35 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:48:38 [Speaker 2]
The consistent narrative, especially for teenagers of you're the one who's gonna save the
00:48:43 [Speaker 1]
world.
00:48:43 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:48:44 [Speaker 2]
I feel like this is, on some ways, a desperate plea from older generations.
00:48:49 [Speaker 2]
Like, please, will you save the world?
00:48:50 [Speaker 2]
Because we have screwed up.
00:48:52 [Speaker 2]
But, you know, then you go through my generation where we lost so many people in AIDS.
00:48:56 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:48:57 [Speaker 2]
We lost an entire, you know, whatever.
00:48:59 [Speaker 2]
There's a whole bunch of missing people in that.
00:49:03 [Speaker 2]
That the idea that we have to save the world can itself become really a huge pressure.
00:49:11 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:49:11 [Speaker 2]
And I think now looking around in the actual world and seeing people suffering Mhmm.
00:49:16 [Speaker 2]
Seeing pain, seeing atrocity, seeing, if you look around the world, there is, it is some hard times.
00:49:25 [Speaker 2]
My hope is that role playing games can also help us remember that if we are, if we are making positive investments in our tiny communities, if we make a space where people feel safe, if we make a space where like, oh, you can come to our house and you know you're gonna, you know, come on over, We're gonna not judge you for being a goofy little freak.
00:49:51 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:49:51 [Speaker 2]
You know, we're gonna be like, yes, please.
00:49:53 [Speaker 2]
Please, can all the goofy little freaks come over and be their goofy little freak selves.
00:49:58 [Speaker 2]
That that's huge.
00:49:59 [Speaker 2]
That's powerful.
00:50:00 [Speaker 2]
And it reminds us, I think, that we have we have to go back and forth in the lens of, like, being a role playing character with incredible whatever your role playing is, and then remembering you're also human.
00:50:10 [Speaker 2]
And it's just, like, all the stuff that you said about leaving your group after a game, that too is valuable.
00:50:17 [Speaker 2]
That
00:50:18 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:50:18 [Speaker 2]
That's the important work.
00:50:19 [Speaker 2]
Like, you know what?
00:50:20 [Speaker 2]
If we've made the day easier, if we if if we as people, not me as a game designer, not me as, like, we for Vincent and I, but if if we individually as people Mhmm.
00:50:31 [Speaker 2]
Have made the day easier Mhmm.
00:50:34 [Speaker 2]
For someone around us, that is part of the work.
00:50:38 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:50:38 [Speaker 2]
We don't all have to be doing all the superhero work.
00:50:41 [Speaker 2]
We need to also like, if you're on the front lines at something intense, you have to also know there's so many people in the background.
00:50:49 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:50:49 [Speaker 2]
There are people who are like, oh, I can't do that.
00:50:53 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:50:53 [Speaker 2]
But I I'll have a pot of of soup when you get home and you're cold from being out there doing the thing.
00:50:58 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:50:59 [Speaker 2]
And I think that that is a way to think about role playing games and community where maybe the role playing that you do is the front lines part.
00:51:10 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:51:10 [Speaker 2]
And then when you come back to your other self, you're like, oh, and also we did this little behind the scenes where we all feel a little more able to go into our week, and we have something to look forward to through hard moments in our week.
00:51:22 [Speaker 1]
Mhmm.
00:51:23 [Speaker 2]
And we have a discord where during the week, we're like, oh, check out this goofy thing.
00:51:28 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:28 [Speaker 2]
Man, we're totally beat.
00:51:30 [Speaker 2]
You wanna just play Jackbox in character?
00:51:32 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:34 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:51:34 [Speaker 2]
We have all these things.
00:51:36 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:51:37 [Speaker 1]
That's exactly what I wanted to
00:51:39 [Speaker 2]
hear.
00:51:41 [Speaker 2]
Awesome.
00:51:42 [Speaker 2]
Go ahead to deliver it.
00:51:43 [Speaker 1]
But thank you so much for coming back and being on this again.
00:51:46 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:51:46 [Speaker 1]
Thank you.
00:51:48 [Speaker 1]
I'm if you're listening, I'm pointing at the Thank you so much.
00:51:51 [Speaker 1]
Thank you for listening.
00:51:52 [Speaker 1]
This has been go
00:51:52 [Speaker 2]
listen to all of them.
00:51:54 [Speaker 1]
You can
00:51:54 [Speaker 2]
go talk without me.
00:51:56 [Speaker 1]
This is TypeSpeaks, of course, undetermined episode number, but we'll figure it out after this.
00:52:01 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:52:01 [Speaker 1]
Again, thank you
00:52:02 [Speaker 2]
so much for being here.
00:52:04 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:52:05 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to Type Speaks.
00:52:07 [Speaker 1]
Hope you had a good time because I sure did.
00:52:09 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:52:12 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry.
00:52:13 [Speaker 1]
You can check us out in other places.
00:52:14 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen back to some old ones.
00:52:19 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typesneaks pod.
00:52:21 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:52:24 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:52:25 [Speaker 1]
I've been Ray.