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Season 4 Joyce Harper is Professor of Reproductive Science at the Institute for Women’s Health, University College London, author, public speaker, scientist and host of the podcast Why Didn’t Anyone Tell Me This? Together with expert guests and people with lived experience, this podcast offers practical tools to help you build a life of good health and happiness. www.joyceharper.com Instagram, TikTok: @profjoyceharper Facebook: Global Women Connected
Joyce (00:01.289)
Hi, everyone. We are doing a special podcast edition for International Women's Day
because all of us brilliant women on this podcast today are taking part in the big swim.
So we wanted to do a podcast about why women swim. And I'm joined today already
with Nicky, Heather and Tash. But we are also going to be joined by Jo Mosley, who's on
a bus at the moment. And she's going to be joining us very soon, which could be havoc,
but it will be fun.
So I wanted to start with letting everyone introduce themselves and telling you why they
particularly swim in our very lovely cold waters in the UK. So let's start with Nicky.
Nicky, tell us about yourself.
Nicky (00:48.802)
Hi, thank you so much for having us. I'm Nicky Chisholm. I live in Brighton with my boys
and my husband and my cat and my gorgeous camper van. I organize events, I write
blogs and I organize the big swim. But going back to your question, I think I've always
loved the water. I've got a really amazing photograph, which I can see in my head. It was
taken of me and my dad. I had a yellow canoe when I was about three years old. And I
think that's the start of my visual journey that I can see why I've always loved water. And
I'm 54, so that's like 50 years ago. And I still remember that photo and it will stay with
me forever. And my love of water has continued. And now I'm doing fun things with it.
And I'm combining all the things I love, women, adventures, sport, activities, and
putting them all together into the big swim, which is how I met you guys.
Joyce (01:42.861)
You've put all my favourite things together. Fantastic. I love it. I love it.
Nicky (01:46.382)
Yeah.
Joyce (01:49.269)
Heather, now Heather's been on my podcast before, but Heather, tell us a little bit
about yourself and water.
Heather Massey (01:58.015)
Hi, my name's Heather Massey. I work at the University of Portsmouth in the Extreme
Environments Laboratory. So we like to make people hot, cold or low in oxygen for
research purposes only. And we do rewarm people and get people normal again
afterwards. Again, fairly similar to Nicky, I had to start learning to swim because my dad
has a little had dinghy and he wanted us all to go sailing with him so it's really important
that we learn to swim and I actually preferred being in the water to on the water so again
I've been lucky enough most of my life to be close to water that's swimmable outside
and I've continued in that vein ever since.
Joyce (02:47.085)
fantastic. I love the name of your lab and I tell people they say I want to work there and
I'm really glad you heat everyone up again or cool them down whatever extreme
exposure you put them to. I love it. So Tasha, welcome and tell us a bit about yourself.
Natasha Sones (03:06.718)
Hello, so I'm Natasha Soanes. I live in Suffolk, right by the sea with my three children,
three dogs and a husband. I'm an adventures writer and author. I've just written my first
book about wild swimming. And I was drawn to the sea. So I've always swum in the sea
because I live near the coast, but I always thought it was just something you did on
holiday until I moved to a more rural location and suddenly discovered that people do it
all year round. So I joined these crazy people and now there's nothing more I love more
than chucking myself into an icy river or sea of some kind.
Joyce (03:54.948)
Brilliant. we'll ask Jo the same question once Jo arrives. I'm going to tell you why I do it.
So I'm, I think everyone knows I'm Joyce Harper, professor at UCL in reproductive
health. And I do a lot of work on women's health. And I went to a school where we only
just did our 25 meters and that was it. We didn't have very good swimming lessons but
I've just been one of these people that every time I was anywhere near water, I had to
jump in it, come rain or shine. And in more recent years, I've done it quite religiously,
tried to go swimming at least once a week. I live really far from, well, at least not really
far, but at least half an hour from water at the moment. But Nicky, I want to move to
Brighton.
Nicky (04:45.206)
You're very welcome. There's lots of sea, there's lots of fun. And I think whoever you are,
you will find your niche in Brighton, know, age, fun, adventures, activities, music. It's
really good. think you could just find, there's a lot of niches here. And I think, you know, I
love, you love the sea swimming niche. I mean, you're just be, it's tons. You'll have
plenty of opportunities. Yeah. And I'll, I'll buy you fish and chips on the pier as a starter.
Joyce (05:11.938)
I can eat that. definitely, actually, while we're talking about Brighton, Nicky, tell us what
the big swim is. Tell us what's gonna happen in Brighton and also in the other location,
Dorset, is it? That weekend for International Women's Day. Tell us about that now.
Nicky (05:28.12)
Yes.
Nicky (05:32.75)
So yeah, the big swim was an idea I made up in the middle of the night about four years
ago. And I thought, I'm just going to make this happen and see what happens. So I set
up a Facebook event, invited loads of people and it just took off. So the first year we had
250 people, the second year we had 500 people, the third year we had a thousand
people. And this is the fourth year, but I can't double it again this year because we have
insurance parameters. But the big swim, the idea behind it was to again, to combine all
the things that I love.
So living in Brighton, swimming, women, community, and Surfers Against Sewage. So
the whole idea is it's on March the 14th, it's to celebrate International Women's Day,
which is held every year on March the 8th all across the world. And it unites women and
the many campaigns and projects across the world and highlights those. So I wanted to
bring women together for International Women's Day, raise money for Surfers Against
Sewage. So two pounds of every ticket goes Surfers Against Sewage.
The rest goes to actually running the event. And the idea is, and it has worked the last
few years, and it honestly will fill your heart with glee. And I know Tash was with me last
year. It does really fill your heart with glee. It's bonkers, it's feral, it's bright, it's sparkly,
it's fun. It's just full of women just in a really relaxed state. You're not worried about
what you look like, you're not worried about what you're wearing because it's really feral
and then people are dressed up as crabs and octopuses and seaweed. Tash always
wears a lovely garland on her head. It's just full of absolute fun. And if we could bottle
the sound of a thousand women entering the water at the same time, us four and with
Jo five, we'd be multimillionaires. if we can, Heather, if you can work out how to do that
in your university lab, we'd be millionaires.
It's a good, good, it's a really good, feeling. And people come for many reasons. They
come because they're sad, because they're happy, because it's a goal. They're stepping
out of their comfort zone. They're celebrating something. They're marking something.
They're grieving. There's many stories behind 500 Women and all their families and
friends that are there. And it's a real menagerie, but it's everyone goes home with the
same feeling. Their heart is just really full.
Nicky (07:57.89)
An initial there and you take part, it does sound a bit of nonsense. Tash, will you back
me up on that? It's got that power.
Joyce (08:05.881)
Let us know what's your view.
Natasha Sones (08:06.128)
It is amazing. So last year was my first time attending. Wasn't really sure what to expect
but from the moment that I saw all these women gathered on the beach and then we
had a little briefing from Nicky and some dance tunes and everyone was getting in the
vibe and I've never seen so many colourful costumes and wigs and sparkles and yeah
just
Just getting in the water there was a lot of screaming because it is still fairly chilly in
March but just a lot of whooping and laughter and I am already working on my swim
turban flower themed hat for this year as is Jo I believe.
Nicky (08:39.286)
Hahaha!
Nicky (08:54.21)
I would expect nothing less from you, Tash.
Natasha Sones (08:57.471)
Yeah.
Joyce (08:58.488)
I'll get on that as well. Heather, are you going to wear a hat with flowers on?
Heather Massey (09:04.801)
Great question. I do a lot of long distance swimming so I just wanted to check that the
event was for everybody to take part so people that just want to dip their toe, people
that want to do a little bit longer. I just checked that it's dip for everybody.
Nicky (09:25.388)
Yeah, everyone's welcome. Obviously it's predominantly, I mean, the idea is celebrating
International Women's Day, but we all need allies. We need support. We need family.
We need love. So it is open. The only problem you'll get is getting a ticket because they
sell out like hotcakes. It sells out every year. So that's the only sort of parameter, but
everyone is welcome. It's over 18s. if you want to bring your kids, that's entirely up to
you. That's out of my remit.
Heather Massey (09:30.707)
Absolutely.
Nicky (09:48.558)
So it is open to everybody. I mean, the beach is absolutely heaving because everyone's
there taking pictures and chatting and having a picnic and hot chocolate. But in terms
of distances, there's no distance. It's literally going in. It is March. It's not freezing, but
it's blooming chilly. So, I mean, people might stay in for, I don't know, five, 10, 15, 20
minutes. Other people just step on the side on the beach and just whoop around for
sort of 10 minutes. So I promise you, Heather, there's no long distances for you. You're
gonna have to paddle around with the best of us.
Heather Massey (10:28.051)
Yeah, my artistic skills are a bit limited, so I'll see what I can muster in terms of a hat,
please don't hold me to any creative talent because I have zero.
Joyce (10:42.584)
We can make you one.
Heather Massey (10:45.449)
Yeah, I'll happily wear whatever creation is made for me. I've got a range of hats as well,
but if anybody fancies making a hat, I'm happy to wear it.
Joyce (10:57.188)
We've got a challenge there. we can. Now, Tash, the other thing that we're all going to
be involved with is something called Meet the Author. And you have just written a new
book, as you mentioned earlier, it calls Swimming Wild in South East England. So can
you tell us more about it?
Natasha Sones (10:57.768)
We can bring you something, I'm sure.
Natasha Sones (11:20.04)
Yes that's correct and at the Big Swim is my sort of unofficial launch because that's the
first time I'll have the book to sell. So the book as the title suggests is about wild
swimming in the southeast and covers 10 counties. It has over 100 places you can
swim including London, the home counties, Isle of Wight and it ranges from rivers,
lakes, Lidos, the sea as in Brighton. So Brighton is featured in the book and so is the big
swim from last year and yeah it's just got anything that you could need if you want to
know about swimming including what to wear, equipment, safety, tides, all of that stuff.
So yeah we'll be talking about the book and other things at the panel beforehand.
Joyce (12:21.016)
Yeah, that, Nicky, that's a separate ticket, isn't it, for the big swim and for our Meet the
Author panel event with all of us. So tell us about how they get tickets for that.
Nicky (12:30.75)
Absolutely. So under the big swim, we've got the big swim and we've got the panel talk.
And the idea was there is that we get together women that are doing their thing, leading
the way in writing books about adventure and women getting out in the open spaces
and inspiring other women. So that's on in the morning. So that's before the swim. So
you need to buy your tickets for that. And I think if you've got show notes, we can put
them up here. And the links in the show notes for the swim is one and the author's link
is another. So the idea is you go along to visit you guys in the morning, say hello to you,
listen to you, buy the books, then have a cup of coffee and then come and join us on the
beach. So you can sort of make a long, long, long day of it really.
Joyce (13:15.67)
It's going to be very exciting. can't wait till everyone comes to join us. Now I will be
talking about my new book, which actually is officially launching on the 20th of March
called Your Joyful Years. And I interviewed 50 thriving women over 50 who we talked
about lots of things. We talked about happiness, joy, exercise, being in nature, relaxing.
Swimming came up a lot and being near water. So there was lots of women that
relaxed.
Natasha Sones (13:27.827)
Yeah.
Joyce (13:45.796)
And we're very happy being near water, but not necessarily in it, but there were lots of
women who also loved being in it. So I can't wait to share that with women. So it's very
exciting. I'll be talking about that during the event. Now, Heather, you are doing all this
amazing research. So you've been working on the physiology of cold water swimming
for many years. So there's lots of myths around this. Can you tell us what actually
happens to our?
body when we're entering cold water.
Heather Massey (14:19.851)
Okay, yeah, so when we first get into the cold water, everybody starts that whole gasp
response. Some people might swear, they might start to, you know, they may find that
their breathing's really rapid, you get an increase in heart rate. This is all really normal
because your body, your skin temperature is going from a normal skin temperature to
something really cold very rapidly and so it's just a completely normal response to have
this change in breathing and heart rate occur as soon as you get in the water. It's
something we need to take a note of and be aware of so getting into the water really
slowly is important so when Nicky says it's just a short dip some people might put their
toes in, some people might gradually get in down at the beach at Bournemouth at
Brighton must get that right, brighten and then that's absolutely the approach we need
to be taking.
Joyce (15:25.676)
Now, Heather, this leads nicely on to safety. We really must consider safety. And you
and I are part of a group that talks about this all the time. So how can we really be sure
that people are going to be safe in cold water all the time, but also at the big swim?
Heather Massey (15:44.884)
Okay so in terms of being safe all of the time I think it's important before you go
swimming just to check that you're physically well. If you swum before that's fine but
you might have had a cold or you might have been under the weather so just check that
you're well to swim on that day. If for any reason you don't think you are maybe just get
a check up with the GP. In terms of safety for your swim
Make sure you're with other people that know what they're doing and what to expect in
the cold water if you've never swum before or dipped. And it's a good opportunity to
have, you know, if there's lifeguards on the beach, go and swim in those lifeguarded
areas.
Joyce (16:28.548)
And certainly the big, yeah, sorry, Nicky, yeah, carry on.
Nicky (16:29.354)
In terms of the safety for the swim, that's something that although I made this all up in
the middle of the night, as it's grown into something brilliant, I'd always, always have
the safety. So we've got a safety team and they'll be the ones on the day. If it's too windy
or it's unsafe, they will call it off and they'll say, no, we're not going in. There's lifeguards
on the beach. There's lifeguards in the water.
There is a place we can warm up. There is first aid and there's a specialist with a cardiac
response as well. Plus it's all risk assessed and it's all insured. So I promise you it's
super, super safe. And they sort of like the safety team will hold everyone back and then
they will allow everyone in the water and everyone's watching all the time. So there is a
really big safety element to it because I just wouldn't sleep at night if it wasn't because
some people come along and they've not swum before and then they get in and it is
quite, if you haven't done it before, what can we say? It's a shock. It's a proper shocker.
So, I do say don't come and do this if you haven't done it before because like echoing
what Heather said, there is a degree of, I mean, apply some common sense, that it's
applying common sense. It's all safe and you are welcome, but you must apply
common sense. No drugs, no alcohol just come with, you know, full of fun, common
sense spirit.
Joyce (18:00.888)
Yeah, and
Heather Massey (18:01.321)
And quite a lot of people, they sometimes intend to get in the water but have just as
good an experience watching other people getting the water and staying dry
themselves. And I will frequently just go down to the beach and watch people getting in
and not get wet myself. So it's whatever you feel like on the day, if you've booked to do
for the swim but think actually it's not for me, just come down and enjoy the ambience
on the beach.
Nicky (18:27.736)
Yeah, I echo that. Thank you.
Natasha Sones (18:30.388)
Can I just interject that if for some reason the big swim is called off, the panel talk is still
going ahead.
Nicky (18:40.77)
so if the weather's bad, we will have a safety team and we will know the Friday, which is
Friday the 13th. Ooh, that's bad, isn't it? Friday the 13th. So Friday the 13th, the one,
sorry. We will have a safety briefing and if we need to call it off, there's a storm coming
through, we will know at that time. Whatever happens, the panel talk will go ahead
because it's inside. We've got 50 tickets that are on sale and it will be inside. So
whatever happens, your author talk will be going ahead on the morning. So please do
come along. But that will all be, you know, watch social media and watch your emails
and you'll know what's going on.
Joyce (20:17.444)
wanted to add about it's so important to swim our own swim so if you're normally a
dipper and then you're with some friends who want to stay in for 10 minutes just do
what you want to do it's very individual we are no pressure it's not a competition to just
stay in the water for as long as we feel comfortable but i want to introduce Jo Jo's just
arrived hi Jo hi Jo
Jo (20:45.401)
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for letting me into the conversation.
Natasha Sones (20:46.31)
and
Joyce (20:50.4)
absolutely, always a pleasure. Jo as well has been on my podcast before. Jo, just asked
a couple of questions to the others that I'll ask you now to catch up. So, Jo, just tell us a
little bit about yourself and what drew you to water? I know you're normally on it, but
you're also in it.
Jo (21:07.875)
Yes, so I'm an author. I've written three books about beautiful about paddle boarding to
our beautiful places to paddle board and one is about the mental well-being and
physical well-being of paddle boarding, how it can change our lives. I make short little
films. I'm 61. I live with and look after my dad. live by the sea. And so yeah, I've always
loved the water. used to be a diver when I was younger, kayaks and mainly now I
paddleboard and I swim at sunrise and I've also just got into a little bit of skinny dipping
under full moons.
Joyce (21:42.948)
Are you keeping your clothes on on the bright big swim?
Jo (21:45.604)
And I did my.
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I did make a film about skinny dipping last year. That's why I
mentioned it. And I've just done my first ice hole over in Norway. So that was a really
amazing experience. So I can see Nicky cheering. So yeah, I love it. I've always been
around the water and love the water. Yeah.
Natasha Sones (21:51.401)
Yeah.
Nicky (22:01.282)
Web time!
Joyce (22:08.868)
It was a brilliant movie of you doing your ice plunge. It was absolutely brilliant. So if
anyone has missed it, I will put everyone's Instagram link. So please go and watch Jo in
the most beautiful surrounding during her ice dip. So Jo, just to catch up, because I've
asked everyone a few questions. So tell us more about your, you've written three books
now about paddle boarding. So tell us more about,
Jo (22:14.843)
you
Jo (22:22.779)
Thank you.
Jo (22:35.866)
Mmm.
Joyce (22:37.7)
a little bit more about your paddle boarding.
Jo (22:41.371)
So I came to paddleboarding in 2016. I'd injured my knee and took a lesson as it was a
way to sort of healing my knee, building my core strength and I loved it. 24th of
September 2016, Derwent water changed my life and I decided about two months later,
having had one lesson that I would paddleboard from Liverpool to Leeds. So 128 miles.
And I was told it was too hard for a woman of my age. I was only 51 coming up to 52. I
know, I know. Too complex, too boring. So I put the dream away for three years. Three
years I put the dream away whilst I built up my confidence. But also in the interim, I
went to the funeral, funerals of a number of my girlfriends and only one of them had
reached 50. And I just realized really simply that life is very short, very precious. If you
have the spark of a dream, you should try and make it happen.
Nicky (23:13.422)
Oof.
Jo (23:37.819)
So in July 2019, three years after that initial sort of lesson, I became the first woman to
paddleboard coast to coast. I added an extra 34 miles on and paddleboarded 162
miles, picking up litter, fundraising. We made a film about it called Brave Enough, a
Journey Home to Joy. And then in lockdown, had a bit more time on my hands, pitched a
book to the same publishers as Natasha and wrote my first book about beautiful places
to paddleboard that went so well became a bestseller. They asked me to write another
one about beautiful places to paddleboard in the Lake District that won an award and
did so well. And then I wanted to write about the wellbeing aspects like like we talk
about swimming, but the wellbeing aspects of paddleboarding. So physical, emotional,
mental, social, everything that we talk about in swimming, but obviously on a
paddleboard and having a different perspective. And so yeah, that was my third book.
So yeah, steaming along in my 60s now. Or maybe I'll have a rest now having just come
back from cross-country skiing. But yeah, yeah, I just like being outdoors and doing
things. I'm not like the most accomplished adventurer, but I just love doing something
every day to make me feel good.
Joyce (24:56.484)
think you're a hugely accomplished adventurer. Absolutely in awe of what you've been
doing. It's brilliant. But you mentioned there about being outside. I think for many
women especially, that freedom of being outside, think the beautiful effects of the cold
water that Heather's told us about, but also the sisterhood of being in our community of
swimmers. So I'd like to ask each of us.
Jo (24:59.035)
You
Jo (25:05.79)
thank you. Yeah.
Jo (25:16.794)
Mm.
Jo (25:21.071)
Mmm.
Joyce (25:26.34)
What do you think about the sisterhood of those women who cold water swim and
those that are going to join us at the big swim?
Joyce (25:38.264)
Nicky go first.
Jo (25:40.644)
No.
Nicky (25:41.204)
I have always absolutely loved the power of women together. You can feel it. can
physically feel it. I ran a networking group for years and some women have come in,
she's really nervous, never been to it before and give her a few meetings and you'd
watch them blossom like a flower. And I think that's always the same thing. Women are
really good at nurturing and enabling and elevating, supporting other women. And I
think...
I think that's what the sisterhood is all about. And if you're in the sisterhood, I also think
there's a power in your voices. I always feel like you're stronger together. And I totally
get that. And I really, I can feel it in my heart. I just think it's so much power. And often
you're fighting all sorts of other nonsense, but when there's like us five together, you you
can achieve a lot more. Your reach is wider, your resources are wider, your contacts are
wider, your opportunities. So why wouldn't you do that? You embrace the sisterhood.
You've got to give you you've got to give and then, you know, what's the expression,
what goes around comes around. So I think it's really important. And I also think the
sisterhood gives you an opportunity for that, that playfulness and that fun. Like I like to
let you have fun and be silly. As an adult, you don't always have that opportunity to be
fun and be silly. And I quite like that sort of side of it. So, yeah, totally up for the
sisterhood.
Jo (26:49.275)
Mm.
Jo (26:59.067)
Mmm.
Hmm. When I, I think that's wonderful, Nick. sorry. No, no, sorry. I just, if it's okay, just
think that's wonderful, Nicky. When I moved here this time last year, so I lived with my
dad. I look up to my 92 year old dad. But when I lived here, my heart was broken and end
of a relationship. And I've always swum and dipped here. But I put a message on a
WhatsApp group that they swim a little bit further down the coast. And then I got
another little message saying,
Joyce (27:03.118)
Heather, Jo, go on.
Jo (27:31.065)
we don't use the WhatsApp group, but would you like to swim with us? And it's some
really local women and they're just so lovely. And our WhatsApp messages sometimes
just are crazy. But yesterday they were skinny dipping at full moon. I was in London and
honestly, it's just the joy of it in the sea. they sort of will just say that one of them put a
video up and said, I can't not what I can't watch this without giggling and just that
loveliness when.
Everybody's dealing, as you say, Nicky, with difficult situations and we've all got
demands and life and we can share it in the sea knowing it won't go anywhere else and
people are very open to sharing difficult situations. But then in a minute later, we can be
talking about, you know, our boobs rolling around us when you know what I mean sort
of getting into a swimsuit or we don't normally talk about our boobs but you know what
mean you're getting into a swimsuit or you're getting out of the swimsuit or you're
walking back to the cottage with just your you know I've got a red change robe and I just
take my swimsuit off and walk back and I'm walking naked and nobody knows and
you're just giggling it's all that kind of joy and very naturalness this is making me sound
like I take my clothes all the time which is so not true but
It's just that joy and sense of spirit that you had when you were younger that you lost
because life got too serious. And we've all still got the seriousness, but we can find that
joy just supporting each other and being there for each other and just sharing things in
the sea that in another setting might take you a long time to get to know that person. I
think there's a very it's like a shortcut, isn't it? A deep shortcut into conversations that
you wouldn't have otherwise.
Sorry, I will be dressed on the day, you worry.
Joyce (29:19.428)
was going to say, I will assure everyone that Jo will be dressed all day. And Jo was one of
the women I interviewed for my book as well, because you can see the joy flowing out of
her. But also, can I just say, when you skinny dip, your boobs are fantastic. They float,
don't they? They're up here.
Jo (29:23.867)
Of course I will! Of course I will.
Jo (29:31.739)
Mmm.
you
Natasha Sones (29:39.742)
They do.
Jo (29:40.763)
But yes, I don't really notice to be honest. I think as it is in the North Sea I'm in and out
very quickly or a waterfall and it's very very cold but next time I will look. Thank you.
Joyce (29:57.112)
Heather, do you want to tell us about community and sisterhood of swimmers?
Heather Massey (30:02.259)
Yeah, I mean, I can only echo a lot of what Nicky and Jo have already said and my
friendship group, my community, we, you're right, you shortcut a lot of experiences and
a lot of coming togetherness very quickly by just going into the cold water. And through
that, we've faced some pretty big challenges, both personal challenges and challenges
that we've put upon ourselves.
Jo (30:18.587)
Mmm.
Jo (30:25.627)
Mmm.
Jo (30:30.947)
Hmm.
Heather Massey (30:31.295)
So things like swimming the English Channel, swimming around Jersey, we've become a
real family. We often refer to each other as an extended family or each other's
mistresses or wives and things like that, just because we're together so often and doing
things together that we've just realized that we've got a lot more in common than we
have different. And the people that I might never have met had I not been dipping in cold
water.
It really is a unique community and we've dragged in other halves, we've dragged in the
children, we've dragged in mums and dads. you know, although we're a sisterhood,
we're now just part of one big extended family, which is absolutely great.
Joyce (31:22.456)
Lovely. And Tash, sisterhood, community.
Jo (31:23.705)
That's wonderful.
Natasha Sones (31:31.608)
So I've always thought there's something magical about being outdoors with just
women. I'm part of a group called the Adventure Queens and lots of people are drawn
to the events that they hold just because with women you can be more supported, can
be... there's not the ego and the competition that you sometimes get with men and
yeah, I love swimming.
I swim with the blue tits which is for men and women but it's mainly women and I've
made some of my best friends through that group. We swim together all the time. I've
told deep dark secrets in the water because I know that they'll be held there and as with
Jo, I love skinny dipping in the moonlight. It's one of my favourite things to do. We just
get in the water take our costumes off in the water and then in a really strange way put
them back on in the water. yeah the boobs floating around is a thing and when the big
moon is shining I can expose a little bit too much. But it's all just women and we're all
just women together and yeah there's something magical about it.
Joyce (32:52.9)
Fantastic. Now we're just going to finish off now. We didn't want to make a really long
podcast. We could talk forever. You know what women are like. But Heather, I wanted
to ask you about a bit of your research. you're doing, you've been doing a long time now.
You've been doing a brilliant study about looking at, specifically about depression and
cold water swimming. And I know that you can't tell us too much about the data yet.
Every time I see you, I'm trying to prize a bit more about you, but can you tell us a little
bit about the study that you're doing?
Heather Massey (33:24.065)
Yeah, sure. Thanks very much, Joy. Yeah, myself and my colleague Hannah Denton,
who lives in Brighton, have been working with Sussex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust
on a clinical trial, looking to see if a swimming course could be used as an intervention
for people living with symptoms of depression. And we've been working in this area for
around 10 years to get to the point of doing a clinical trial.
So lots of people have, you know, they've got lots of anecdotal experience, lots of
experiences of people who've said they've had, you know, a transformation from their
aquatic activity in cold water, being outside. you know, GPs can't really prescribe
outdoor swimming in any way, shape or form without having really robust and rigorous
evidence and that's what we're trying to support and provide is something that we can
start to hang our hat on a little bit. We're not trying to medicalise outdoor swimming at
all, but, we recognise that there is a place for people needing medications or therapies
for their symptoms, but there's also a place for other activities. So that's outdoor
swimming, being outside, walking, whatever you enjoy doing could be useful or could
be helpful for your symptoms of depression. And so we're starting to look into this. So it
was a call from the research arm of the NHS and we thought, well, go big or go home
basically. And we're two years into a two and a bit year study. So I don't have any
information I can give you other than the fact that we are on tenterhooks about the
findings.
Obviously we were hoping to find that it's clinically effective and cost effective because
that might pave the way for GP surgeries to ask swimming coaches to take groups into
the water to support them with their mental health. yeah, we've been big advocates for
a long time of outdoor swimming, but doing it safely and doing it to support people.
Heather Massey (35:48.757)
as Nicky was saying, to re-re-find play and that's really what our swim sessions are all
about when we when we have people with symptoms of depression going into the
water. It's a safe enjoyment of water and that's hopefully what we'll we'll find some
interesting findings towards the end of this year. Yeah fingers crossed.
Joyce (36:09.358)
can't wait. can't wait. And Heather and I were involved in a study because I'd heard so
many women that I swim with tell me that they felt the swimming helped their
menstrual and menopause symptoms. And again, as Heather said, it may be the
community, it may be being outside, it may be the exercise, it may be the cold water,
but we wanted to just ask them how they felt. We did ask them which of those they felt
were the most important.
if they felt that this activity helped their menstrual menopause symptoms. So all that
work's been published, but I will be talking about that a bit more at Meet the Author. But
I just wanted to ask everybody now how they... I'll say at the end of my podcast, I always
ask everyone what makes them happy and where is their happy place? And to all of you,
it doesn't need to be water at all. It could be anything. So...
Nicky, let me start with you. Nicky, what makes you happy and where's your happy
place?
Nicky (37:13.326)
Obviously it goes without saying because I'll get told off if you don't say the family. We
have to say the family, but I love my boys. But actually just me being on my own. I really
like being in really cold places. Like Jo, I've just come back from a trip in very cold
Sweden. I really like pushing myself in a cold place and it's like minus 15. I've got a flask
of tea in my bag and I've got a digesters in my pocket. I'm, whatever I'm doing, like cross
country skiing and I'm just thinking, Nicky, this is so good.
Natasha Sones (37:15.116)
So thank
Nicky (37:43.438)
I'm so proud of you. I just love it. I just love it. And I could feel myself like tingling from
the inside out. So it's always somewhere cold. It's always somewhere remote. It's got to
have an element of challenge in it. And I just think, I'm just so happy. could literally, my
head would pop off if it could.
Joyce (38:01.764)
I love that. Tasha, tell us.
Natasha Sones (38:07.982)
I love being on a beach or in the forest. Like Nicky, I love extremes so for me it has to be
like really hot or really cold. I love the snow and yeah being with my family and friends
but also being on my own.
Joyce (38:30.744)
Jo, I know you do a lot about joy, a lot about joy in all of your Instagram posts. You've
done that for many, many years. So tell us what makes you happy and where's your
happy place.
Jo (38:40.837)
Mmm.
I would say, I mean, I really love being at home. I love being like living with my dad,
looking after my dad. I love it when my boys visit, when my sister visits, when my nieces
and the rest of the family come. And then I love it when I then say, I'm just going for a
swim or I'm just going for a paddle. And I think like Nicky, I always think, you know,
there's this real emphasis that we have to live the best version of ourselves. And I find
that quite onerous. But when I'm in the water, it's my favourite version of myself. It's, it's
one where I'm just very absorbed in the moment or cross country skiing, like Nicky said,
and it's that favourite version, which is, I'm feeling brave, but but also excited and
curious and proud of myself. Because I think in your 50s and 60s, there's very little sort
of When you're younger, you have accomplishments, don't you, that you can say, I'm
proud of this. But in your 50s and 60s, unless you do projects that you can then say, I'm
proud of myself for, they're not as, people aren't looking to give you praise that much, I
don't think, at this age. And so when I'm out doing things like the cross-country skiing,
like paddle boarding, like dipping, I feel a sense of pride in myself. I just feel I'm proud of
the person that I'm becoming and the obstacles that I've gone through to be here. And
just joyful and a little bit messy and just very much a sense of confidence in who I am,
which I don't always have, but somehow being in nature gives me that confidence and
an opportunity to contribute with beach cleans or just supporting other people. So it
just offers so much, doesn't it, to become the person.
Jo (40:34.619)
But maybe you were when you were eight, nine or 10 and got buried in life. then think in
your 50s and 60s, you can rediscover her and just, like you say, be playful and joyful and
try and do the things today to look after me at 80, which is only 19 years away, which is
terrifying. Yeah, that's terrifying, isn't it?
Joyce (40:58.02)
Don't think about it, don't think about it. We're having fun, we're having fun. Heather,
what makes you happy? Where's your happy place?
Jo (41:00.516)
Hahaha!
Yeah.
Heather Massey (41:08.609)
I suppose for me, it sounds so simple, I spend a lot of time indoors. We work, we're
always indoors, just being outside for five minutes, looking at the sky, looking at the
green, hearing nature. I just want to bottle that so that it makes the indoor part of my
life.
manageable, doable and you just cherish the moments you get to be outside in nature
with people or on your own.
Joyce (41:49.454)
I'll do mine. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. I'll do that. So this year, I've got two words
for the year. One of them is embrace, which has several different meanings. But one of
them is sisterhood. That's why I was bringing it up earlier as well. And for me, this year,
it's listening, listening to women of all ages and trying to make sure that we can support
each other to have good health.
Jo (42:04.442)
Mm.
Joyce (42:18.248)
and happiness in our lives. So I think it's so important. us people that swim, I think we're
at a big advantage anyway. Not everyone wants to get in the water. They're not all crazy
like us. whatever makes a woman happy and healthy, really looking after their health, I
think is really important. So that's what this year for me, that's going to be my happy
place when I'm with some sisters and we're just
Jo (42:32.955)
Yes.
Joyce (42:48.184)
being happy. So I'm going to let the final word go to Nicky because she's the boss. So
Nicky, else? Anything else you want to say about our wonderful Meet the Authors at our
panel event and the big swim in Brighton?
Nicky (42:57.109)
Ooooo!
Nicky (43:08.322)
think come along and meet all the women on the beach. You can be part of something
that's very special that you will walk away with and you'll feel it in your heart and you'll
feel it in your bones and it will really, really lift your spirit. Come along to the authors
panel and be inspired. And I...
Jo (43:38.395)
Brilliant.
Joyce (43:39.32)
fantastic and please please come and say hello to us I hope I hope everyone else
agrees on the panel please come and say hello I'd love everyone to I know it's not
everyone's thing but you can take a selfie with me for sure have a hug I'm a hugger not
everyone's a hugger check first but you can come and hug me and take my photo if you
don't want to hug check check first but we hope to see you on Saturday the 14th of
March in Brighton. And thank you for our wonderful panel. We're coming on today and
I'm just so looking forward to, I'm gonna be in Brighton for the whole weekend for a
wonderful weekend in Brighton. Thank you all very much.
Natasha Sones (44:26.766)
Thank you