Fear of Black Consciousness with Dr. Lewis Gordon

PJ is joined once again by Dr. Lewis Gordon. Together, they talk about Karl Jaspers, loving your country, and race.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, Dr. Lewis Gordon returns to discuss his most recent book, Fear of Black Consciousness. Join a fascinating conversation that covers social justice, philosophy of religion, phenomenology, parenting, James Bond, and more. 

For a deep dive into Dr. Lewis Gordon's work, check out his book: 
Fear of Black Consciousness 👉 https://amzn.to/3FSktj8

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: Is it Um, Doctor Cahndda, I'm probably saying his name wrong, uh,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, Henda Andrews,

[pj_wehry]: yeahda, Andnder Andrews, Yes, uh,

[pj_wehry]: but I saw uh, your uh, webon R with him and uh, now that I've read your book, I'm

[pj_wehry]: like. Of course, I see Fannon in the background, right.

[pj_wehry]: I like. I. I, A lot. A lot of the choices are are making sense. um,

[lewis_gordon]: excuse me, Mhm. Yeah.

[pj_wehry]: uh, y. You know, I'm not a huge fan. I don't want to do the gotcha thing. Um,

[pj_wehry]: I do want to mention the podcast that I'm a a devout Christian, not, uh, because

[pj_wehry]: I'm

[lewis_gordon]: what. what's wrong with that?

[pj_wehry]: nothing. nothing. Uh, yeah, like

[lewis_gordon]: Oh good.

[pj_wehry]: and no, No, like the reason I want to mention it is, um, just uh. what I don't

[pj_wehry]: want to do is I don't want to be disenenuous Right And so that it, and maybe it

[pj_wehry]: won't need to come up in the potcast and that would be fine. Uh, just that Yeah, I

[pj_wehry]: know, there's a critique and I think a rightful critique of many forms of

[pj_wehry]: Christianity. And so what I don't want for my listeners is they know that I'm a

[pj_wehry]: devout Christian and for that to be, uh, me hiding hiding that while I'm talking

[pj_wehry]: to you. If that makes sense,

[lewis_gordon]: that totally makes sense. You don't have to hide that.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, right, right, and I, I don't feel well. That's I. But what I didn't want is

[pj_wehry]: to follow up like you, talk about the critique of Christiandian, and maybe be like

[pj_wehry]: I'm a devout Christian and then you know like there's that whole. You know what

[pj_wehry]: I'm talking about. There's that whole apologetic

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: thing that. To be quite frank was more interesting when I was sixteen, so

[pj_wehry]: if that makes sense,

[lewis_gordon]: but also, but Christianity is a very interesting example, though, Because you

[lewis_gordon]: know, I make a

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: distinction between Constantinian

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: Christianity and

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: it, and a lot of people don't realize that that, Um, for instance, a lot of

[lewis_gordon]: people don't know the early period of Christianity. A lot of the people who

[lewis_gordon]: are very active and prosiz more female,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: and uh. and that um. Constantinian Christianity imposed a for of patriarchal

[lewis_gordon]: structure, And and, and that's one of the reason why you commissioned. I

[lewis_gordon]: forgot the name of the Libraryian in Palestine to um

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[lewis_gordon]: to assemble a canonical set of texts, which actually then pushed away the

[lewis_gordon]: women writers, and uh, but a lot of people don't know that Christianity' a far

[lewis_gordon]: more complex

[pj_wehry]: oh yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: phenomenon, and uh, and in and in the book, I also make a distinction between

[lewis_gordon]: Um, the more ancient Uh, African, um, eastern going

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: Christianity, and what happened that split the Mediterranean to create a form

[lewis_gordon]: of Northern Christianities, mediated by Aristotilianism. But, uh, as you

[lewis_gordon]: probably know, I, I was also professor of Forligion, not not only philosophy

[pj_wehry]: oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's cool.

[lewis_gordon]: and other things.

[lewis_gordon]: Oh, yeah, you. well, I've trained scholars for Phds and relision,

[pj_wehry]: every time

[lewis_gordon]: and uh, that's whyd up.

[pj_wehry]: every time I talk to you, it's like you've lived an entire past life. That like

[pj_wehry]: you, like I was also a jazz musician.

[pj_wehry]: It's really amazing.

[lewis_gordon]: No, No, The one of the funny things about what I do is, I'm a professor

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[lewis_gordon]: of many things. I've um professor school in dance, phenomenologies of

[lewis_gordon]: movement, Uh, Prof. I, I've done, trained people in from community health

[lewis_gordon]: issues. I've actually uh, um, trainent trained and advised psychologists. Uh,

[lewis_gordon]: do work in psychoanalysis. Uh, it's a broad range of things and in philosophy.

[lewis_gordon]: That's one of the reasons why I say philosophy of human

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: sciences to give it a A. A better understanding. But yeah, no, Um, So the the

[lewis_gordon]: problem is one of the. you know, one of the the things about. I like the fact

[lewis_gordon]: that we started talking about Christianity, because I remember many years ago

[lewis_gordon]: when I was teaching, I was giving Um a se a course in the Bible belt. And you

[lewis_gordon]: you figure, if you're in a Bible belt, you know, like in my book, wear big of

[lewis_gordon]: examples from

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[lewis_gordon]: films and so forth, if you're gonna be in an audience that are P. You know

[lewis_gordon]: Christians, And it's the Bible belt. I thought, let me use Biblical examples

[lewis_gordon]: so we could speak. and to my chagrin to my shock, to my horror, none of the

[lewis_gordon]: students read the Bible,

[pj_wehry]: Oh, the Biblical literacy. he is shocking for the Bible belt.

[lewis_gordon]: So so you could imagine why they the looking. That's why. To this day, even

[lewis_gordon]: even when I'm teaching philosophy classes that are not

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yes,

[lewis_gordon]: philosophy of religion, I actually

[lewis_gordon]: uh, assigned Biblical passages because they need to be Li. they need

[pj_wehry]: yeah, right,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: to be literate. they need to know. So like even my social ethics class That,

[lewis_gordon]: to be literate. they need to know. So like even my social ethics class That,

[lewis_gordon]: which is a large mega class. I assign a Genesis one in two,

[lewis_gordon]: which is a large mega class. I assign a Genesis one in two,

[pj_wehry]: hm. hm,

[lewis_gordon]: and I signed a Cororanic version, and I also assigned the

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Tanoch version, which is the You know the Hebrew. I don't like the word Hebrew

[lewis_gordon]: Bible, but the you know,

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: the the torrah and Um, and the students are. it's sucking into this day when

[lewis_gordon]: I'm in an audience of like three hundred or five hundred students.

[lewis_gordon]: many of them including the ones who are

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Muslims or the ones or are Christians, and you and the minure Jews don't know

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: these stories.

[lewis_gordon]: A. And it is the first time they'reginning to read them. So one of the things

[lewis_gordon]: I um do

[lewis_gordon]: is to to introduce them to that and to the

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: complexity of it, because

[lewis_gordon]: a lot of them

[lewis_gordon]: don't understand at this point that if they don't learn to think for

[lewis_gordon]: themselves and read

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: these things these texts, then they're going to be an. If there are

[lewis_gordon]: christians, say who go to church on a Sunday, having some

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[lewis_gordon]: preacher tell them things that are literally not in the text.

[pj_wehry]: oh, Dm, yeah, I mean, I grew up independent Fundamental Baptist and I have moved

[pj_wehry]: quite

[lewis_gordon]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: a distance since then, and uh oh, man, the amount of misinformation is

[pj_wehry]: astonishing.

[lewis_gordon]: it's astonish. You're probably just so shocked when you read We reading these

[lewis_gordon]: things. Oh, what?

[pj_wehry]: Oh yeah. oh, I mean,

[pj_wehry]: rock music kills plants, and God is a god of life, so rock music is wrong. I mean,

[pj_wehry]: that was a common

[lewis_gordon]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: argument. Um, that's one of my favorites, though, Because it just

[pj_wehry]: it's so. It's so foreign to people right like it doesn't even make sense. Um. I

[pj_wehry]: mean, that's that continual movement. Um is is part of what's led to the this

[pj_wehry]: podcast for me, Right like that, this search in philosophy and in religion, Um,

[pj_wehry]: And it's also been a big part of Uh. Why embodying different modes of knowing is

[pj_wehry]: important for me? Because literally, what started most of this was my love of

[pj_wehry]: literature

[pj_wehry]: and

[lewis_gordon]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: I, I was looking at what I was experiencing, literature and the wonder and the the

[pj_wehry]: fantastic nature of it, and I was just um.

[pj_wehry]: I. It wasn't adding up to what I was experiencing.

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, Y. and you know what else that's

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: really striking? There's this false. Th. there are a lot. There are a lot of

[lewis_gordon]: loaded questions, fallacies of false

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: dilemmas, et cetera that are imposed upon looking at the relationship of

[lewis_gordon]: philosophy to religion as an example, and it has led to. so, for instance,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: many, there are many people who study philosophy today who really think

[lewis_gordon]: they're doing some kind of science when they're doing pseudo science. And but,

[lewis_gordon]: but here's the part that's real

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: red Striking many of them make judgments around theology and philosophy and

[lewis_gordon]: not

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: theology and religion. but they have not read the text

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: themselves. so it's hilarious when I look read the works of many s avowedly

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: secular philosophers. And it's they have no idea how much religion is

[lewis_gordon]: informing

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: what they think,

[lewis_gordon]: And a a good example is if you think and say, for instance you know Leviathon

[lewis_gordon]: is is is you

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: know connected to this

[pj_wehry]: sure,

[lewis_gordon]: this meeting

[lewis_gordon]: and mo, many, uh, euro, modern Anglo political

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: philosophers

[lewis_gordon]: imagine that they're completely in their thought independent of theology.

[lewis_gordon]: Okay, so so what they do in

[lewis_gordon]: to to

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: maintain this is often mistranslate. If it's in another language,

[lewis_gordon]: what is clearly a theological or religious concept,

[lewis_gordon]: K, in order to make it fit, so here, so I give you two

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: examples. The first, the first example is let's start with in English,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Right, because this is Ra, not a term. If you look at a lot of political

[lewis_gordon]: philosophical arguments and how let's pick somebody like say John ralls,

[lewis_gordon]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: either, because he is the most famous American and your Anglo political

[lewis_gordon]: philosopher,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: right, Ah, the late John Rolls,

[lewis_gordon]: If you look at his argument in a theory of justice,

[lewis_gordon]: he argues that justice has to be in the deep structure of the society.

[lewis_gordon]: Okay, And then he draws out the principles from those deep structures,

[lewis_gordon]: and then he ▁ultimately, then argues This is how you make the society just in

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, hm,

[lewis_gordon]: relation to

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: those principles.

[lewis_gordon]: those principles.

[lewis_gordon]: Okay, so that doesn't seem religious at all. Okay,

[pj_wehry]: I, I'm curious where you're going to the spy. Have some suspicions. Go ahead,

[lewis_gordon]: that's clearly

[lewis_gordon]: theossy.

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: If you think about the classic

[lewis_gordon]: theodysian argument,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Right,

[lewis_gordon]: God is intrinsically

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: good,

[lewis_gordon]: So evil is that which contradicts God. Injustice. Those things right,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: theod dequ, God's justice. So what you have to do is draw out God's

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: justice and eliminate the contradictions.

[pj_wehry]: yeah. Right, headsight, Yeah, and it's that embedding in the. Um. Kind of. I think

[pj_wehry]: you mentioned this with Cararl Jaspers in your book which pro listeners. That's

[pj_wehry]: today. we're here to talk about fear of black consciousness, which was a

[pj_wehry]: tremendous read. Um, really, In many ways my favorite type of philosophy. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: enjoyable to read, and uh, very challenging. Uh, provoked a lot of thoughts. So

[pj_wehry]: thank you. I appreciate the work you put into

[lewis_gordon]: Oh, thank you.

[pj_wehry]: this. Um, but

[pj_wehry]: um,

[pj_wehry]: sorry, I got caught up in that. the. Uh, oh, you talked about Carl Jaspers, And

[pj_wehry]: and how you know? Atheists might be uncomfortable with this discussion. But the

[pj_wehry]: fact that we have to be responsible beyond ourselves like there's that. that

[pj_wehry]: correlation of like you have to base it in something, and that, as human beings

[pj_wehry]: were too small in many ways to to not have that responsibility outside ourselves.

[pj_wehry]: If that makes sense,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, yeah, we are when we talk about yspers. Uh, you know, Um, I talk about

[lewis_gordon]: the, for instance, his four characterizations of

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility,

[lewis_gordon]: But but but very quickly before I go to ospers, The the second

[pj_wehry]: oh yes, absolutely

[lewis_gordon]: example I is going to use was what was Aristotle? If you look at a lot of

[lewis_gordon]: Anglo translations, because it's done by philosophers of Aristotle. When they

[lewis_gordon]: talk about his ethics, they will talk about you,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Donia. And, and it's often translated

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: as happiness,

[lewis_gordon]: which is absolutely ridiculous.

[pj_wehry]: Is it blessedness?

[lewis_gordon]: but

[lewis_gordon]: that's a better translation.

[pj_wehry]: Yes, it, guess it's Um. it. It's similar to Uh. The be atatitudes right, isn't it?

[pj_wehry]: It's the same word.

[lewis_gordon]: correct.

[lewis_gordon]: And so if you think about it, a lot of Aristotle would suddenly make sense

[lewis_gordon]: Because there are times when you look at a person who has developed

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: good character.

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: All the virtues you look at the person you say, man, you're

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: blessed.

[lewis_gordon]: But, but because they want to issue religious

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: terminology, but you don't say, Wow, you got all

[pj_wehry]: you're happy.

[lewis_gordon]: the virtues. You're happy

[lewis_gordon]: because that that

[pj_wehry]: No, it really doesn't.

[lewis_gordon]: makes no sense, because their times, virtue is not about being happy, Is about

[lewis_gordon]: understanding there times. it's correct. Actually, not to be happy, but to be

[lewis_gordon]: sad. There are times where it's it's proper to be outraged. There are times

[pj_wehry]: H. right.

[lewis_gordon]: where it's proper to be quite concerned about the plight of our planet

[lewis_gordon]: and humankind. That is what a good person is, and it's also some. And then

[lewis_gordon]: there are people who have criticized Aristotle about talking about the

[lewis_gordon]: importance of being born and raised by loving good

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: families. They're like. That's unfair. What if you don't have that? But that's

[lewis_gordon]: the whole point. if you have it. you're blessed.

[pj_wehry]: you're bless us. Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: You know. so so you know? So these are things you notice in the book. I'm not

[lewis_gordon]: afraid of the

[lewis_gordon]: religious language. I actually interrogate them.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, I noted that

[lewis_gordon]: And and so

[lewis_gordon]: yeah, that's that. So if you go

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[lewis_gordon]: to yspers, one of the yspers was very similar. I, you could tell in this book.

[lewis_gordon]: This is not um, a a epistemologically, um, a partate or segregated book, And I

[lewis_gordon]: don't reduce reality and thought to good guys, bad guys. Uh, it's it's It's

[lewis_gordon]: about what humanity's struggling to understand our condition. Ha has

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: to offer, and one of the beautiful things about. Yes, you could probably tell

[lewis_gordon]: He's a person I have high regard for because you know he was a. He was a

[lewis_gordon]: Protestant German,

[lewis_gordon]: Um, who was married to a Jewish German.

[lewis_gordon]: Uh, he studied psychiatry. He, W. he wrote one of the greatest psychiatry

[lewis_gordon]: books ever. Uh. His book at psychophology was influential for more than

[pj_wehry]: Wow, I didn't realize that.

[lewis_gordon]: a century. He, um,

[lewis_gordon]: oh, yeah, he was a physician and any but he loved philosophy, And when he

[lewis_gordon]: decided because in a German system I it, that book was the habilit tasion,

[lewis_gordon]: which meant he could be a professor of medicine, he decided he's going to

[lewis_gordon]: write a book on philosophy,

[lewis_gordon]: and

[lewis_gordon]: the the professional philosophers ridiculed him.

[lewis_gordon]: Like. What are you doing? You're moving in our turf. There're even graduate

[lewis_gordon]: students who go to classes and say this man doesn't know what he's talking

[lewis_gordon]: about, but yspers. You know, he's a psychiatrist. He pays attention, but he

[lewis_gordon]: wrote and he writes a three volume Taxx, called Get This philosophy.

[lewis_gordon]: What are classics? said

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: philosophy right. It's like base, as the hip hop people would say, and becomes

[lewis_gordon]: a mega big professor of philosophy right again against his critics. But the

[lewis_gordon]: thing about yspers is he also respected

[lewis_gordon]: Uh, religious ideas,

[lewis_gordon]: and one of the things that Ysper's

[pj_wehry]: h, mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: um does because you know there' are certain terms that don't work in

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: the German language.

[lewis_gordon]: the German language.

[lewis_gordon]: It's very, because existence is is a Latin term. Y, You're a German at an

[lewis_gordon]: existence in being Are not the same thing in Germany.

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[lewis_gordon]: Say ▁zine, So he had to use an neogism existens with a ▁z to capture to talk

[lewis_gordon]: about human beingcause. You've heard me talk before that a human beings,

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: not a thing. A human being stands out is an activity. So when he saw a human

[lewis_gordon]: beings to

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: existences, so along the way, but yspers. Of course, he's a very

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: courageous man because when as things are happening, Nazi Germany, Uh, he, he

[lewis_gordon]: refused not to teach Jewish students, and Agy continued to Jewish students.

[lewis_gordon]: Anybody

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: else who would come to work with him?

[lewis_gordon]: He stood up to the Nazis. He was being a taced. was just that he's such a

[lewis_gordon]: famous philosopher. They were trying to

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: look good. not taking mind

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: and killing him. But he and his wife had made a decision because it really did

[lewis_gordon]: look like Germany's going to win the war. At one point lot people

[pj_wehry]: yeah.

[lewis_gordon]: don't realize this, Um that they picked a date because he was a physician

[lewis_gordon]: where he and his wife were going to commit suicide in Germany in

[pj_wehry]: oh, wow,

[lewis_gordon]: Berlin, But it's just it's just that the Allies marched in a a few days before

[lewis_gordon]: and it changed everything,

[lewis_gordon]: And so, but, but he was adamantly against the idea of

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: fleeing. He wanted to actually take the position. He had a certain view about

[lewis_gordon]: the obligations

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: to your country if you actually

[lewis_gordon]: love

[pj_wehry]: right

[lewis_gordon]: it,

[lewis_gordon]: and so

[lewis_gordon]: yspers

[lewis_gordon]: after the war. Uhcause, people like Heideer look pretty bad, which is really

[lewis_gordon]: terrible. The way are in the U. S. Academy. They just vaalrize.

[pj_wehry]: know,

[lewis_gordon]: Eiger I. there was a smuck. He was an absolute schmuk and he was a coward, but

[lewis_gordon]: um, but if we look at Yspers, whom they pretty much have written

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: out of literature, whom I consider a far better philosopher. Far more. not

[lewis_gordon]: just idmire him as a

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: courageous human being, but his creativity is breath. Uh, but yspers, Um,

[lewis_gordon]: basically said, look, ah, y, y, give these lectures because he was entrusted

[lewis_gordon]: to rebuild the

[pj_wehry]: hm

[lewis_gordon]: German university.

[lewis_gordon]: Okay, and he says there's a problem, of course, because the German univers is

[lewis_gordon]: dominate by naciism, the

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: right, national Socialism,

[lewis_gordon]: and Uh, and as he was so, he gave a series of lectures And that's what

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: I was talking about, Where he was saying. Look okay. Look,

[lewis_gordon]: first of all,

[lewis_gordon]: Germany is a vanquished country

[lewis_gordon]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: and be given the behavior of Germany in World War Two and the events leading

[lewis_gordon]: up to it.

[lewis_gordon]: there is a serious issue that the people of Germany faced, which is the people

[lewis_gordon]: who have defeated them at the moment,

[lewis_gordon]: has to assess that society in the basis of its

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: behavior.

[lewis_gordon]: This is something to people in the United States

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: face as well, right, because you know, W. you know if if we behave in a way

[lewis_gordon]: that if we were vanquished and people looked at our record,

[lewis_gordon]: have we behaved in a way that would make those people say we deserve

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: mercy,

[lewis_gordon]: That's the question. He was. deal. That's a serious question to talk ere

[pj_wehry]: Oh yes, especially at that time. Yeah, it makes so much more sense in context.

[lewis_gordon]: country

[lewis_gordon]: at that time.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: So that's what it was And so he says. Well, to understand it, you need to

[lewis_gordon]: understand a kind of responsibilities people bear in a society.

[lewis_gordon]: And so he started with the first one with metaphysical

[pj_wehry]: H.

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility. And that's the. that's the most radically personal. That is

[lewis_gordon]: the responsibility you have in your relationship to God, or if you earn a

[lewis_gordon]: society where your religion is not God save you'.

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: it's Buddhism, right, ah, or ▁zen, Buddhism. You're real, your responsibility

[lewis_gordon]: to

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: the sacred.

[lewis_gordon]: Okay, but that's ▁ultimately about you, and that relationship then is another

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility,

[lewis_gordon]: the responsibility you have to your fellow human being, which is moral

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility. but it's still pretty much about how you act. O. Okay, it's

[lewis_gordon]: just that, instead of thinking about the absolute relationship to reality,

[lewis_gordon]: it's about your fellow human being,

[lewis_gordon]: and then there's a third, which is the obligations you have to law to to the

[lewis_gordon]: legal system,

[lewis_gordon]: So you may not think you may think certain laws are really stupid, but you'll

[lewis_gordon]: follow them as

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[lewis_gordon]: a good citizen. And then there's some that you may say are

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: wrong, And that's where you have civil disobedience.

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: You defy them. You know that's where you're inn. The Martin Luther King, that

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[lewis_gordon]: category you know of of being a good human being requires being disobedient to

[pj_wehry]: would you say that that third one? Uh, that civil disobi should stem from the

[lewis_gordon]: the law. K.

[pj_wehry]: first two responsibilities, Right. We don't just break the law because we don't

[pj_wehry]: like something, but because it interferes with those first two responsibilities,

[pj_wehry]: Is that a a good way to think about it? Go ahead,

[lewis_gordon]: Well, this is where well it's getting further. He's

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: getting more. There's more because you see the thing about Yosper's and one

[lewis_gordon]: things I love about him. He's not a

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: reductionistic thinker. You know, some people say it's this

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: versus that, but you notice already we'reing

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: three categories so it's not that simple and you know every human being is

[lewis_gordon]: going to manifest each of em. So then he

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: gets to the fourth, and the fourth is rather

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[lewis_gordon]: interesting. The fourth he says, is political responsibility,

[lewis_gordon]: you see, and political responsibility,

[lewis_gordon]: he argues,

[lewis_gordon]: is um, a responsibility

[lewis_gordon]: that at an entire society bears

[lewis_gordon]: by virtue of its membership in that society

[lewis_gordon]: right, Everybody in that

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: society bears the reason

[lewis_gordon]: for that one. Excuse me, The reason for that one is because of the situation

[lewis_gordon]: they were in

[lewis_gordon]: when you commit

[pj_wehry]: H,

[lewis_gordon]: harms

[lewis_gordon]: as a society.

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: The entire society's responsible. You can't say well, I didn't vote for him. I

[lewis_gordon]: didn't do it. You know, I mean wheth the Allies and all of them were there.

[pj_wehry]: right, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: It was Germany under

[pj_wehry]: right

[lewis_gordon]: trial.

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: That was his point. So yes, in relation to your question,

[lewis_gordon]: all of these come into play.

[lewis_gordon]: You see all of them come into play. But the thing about it is that political

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility Yspers points out

[lewis_gordon]: is a situation in which

[lewis_gordon]: um

[lewis_gordon]: the um. Because the entire society is held

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: responsible, Say, for instance, the United States

[lewis_gordon]: is is held accountable and vanquished and is being held accountable for for

[lewis_gordon]: lots of damages done to

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: the rest of the world, right justice, says an example.

[lewis_gordon]: It means that's that. Say, the United States has to pay a sum. Let's us use

[lewis_gordon]: it. in that sense

[lewis_gordon]: at the end of the day. Where is that money going to come from?

[pj_wehry]: it's got to come from the taxpayers right.

[lewis_gordon]: for

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: correct? And that's the point implicit in living in a society is an obligation

[lewis_gordon]: to take on

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[lewis_gordon]: its debts. And here's a point. It's irrelevant if you are a legal citizen,

[pj_wehry]: interesting,

[lewis_gordon]: a permanent resident.

[lewis_gordon]: Even if you're an undocumented worker,

[lewis_gordon]: you're in that society. Your labor and whatever taxes or resources brought

[lewis_gordon]: from it

[lewis_gordon]: are going to be drawn upon. And that's why, Um,

[lewis_gordon]: and so yoperurs basically says.

[lewis_gordon]: This is why a country has an obligation

[lewis_gordon]: to ask itself. Not only is it doing the right thing, but is it doing it in

[lewis_gordon]: such a way that if others

[lewis_gordon]: were to be judging

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: that country

[lewis_gordon]: that they could say they tried their best and they deserve

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: mercy,

[lewis_gordon]: And that's a complicated issue. And this is, you could probably guess where I

[lewis_gordon]: was going with this. Because it it it it, It gets into the stupid argument

[lewis_gordon]: people always bring up when we talk about reparations in the United States.

[lewis_gordon]: They think it's like about individual white people getting up and giving money

[lewis_gordon]: to individual black people. It's it's the stupidest caricature of the whole

[lewis_gordon]: thing, because first of all, black people pay taxes, Native Americans play

[lewis_gordon]: taxes, pay taxes,

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: you know what I mean, and it's not just the taxes. Lots of other things. it's

[lewis_gordon]: about the citizens. it's about the people of a society taking on

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility for

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: its debts, And that's what Yspers

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: was saying. That's when you now come

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: political, the you can go in a courtroom to deal with civil suits. An

[lewis_gordon]: individual who's in with

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: another individual. you could have a. A. A cop may pull you over. say you know

[lewis_gordon]: if it's a non racist situation and say, Look, you are breaking a speed limit.

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Here is your ticket. If you, you can contest it and go to court. That's still

[lewis_gordon]: an

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: individual.

[lewis_gordon]: But if systematically, one is going to have a whole system with sundown laws

[lewis_gordon]: and ways of blocking people's movement and their their tax buddies, be used

[lewis_gordon]: against them and everybody to create a society of in E, To

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: fix that

[lewis_gordon]: everybody is

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: responsible and that's a crucial element. Everybody is

[lewis_gordon]: responsible for it when it's a political

[pj_wehry]: and I think

[pj_wehry]: yes and I, I think it's just to go alongside. There is a passage where you talk

[lewis_gordon]: responsibilityt.

[pj_wehry]: about Um, this idea of getting moral and political guilt confused, which I think

[pj_wehry]: you make earlier on in the book, And then you. You kind of fulfil that in your

[pj_wehry]: discussion of Yspers,

[pj_wehry]: Yes, and I, D, and I found that S

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: very helpful. Um, y, and you do that at several key points in the book and I, I

[pj_wehry]: found it

[pj_wehry]: uh, so, uh, illuminating. and it' just really helpful too. Uh, When you talked

[pj_wehry]: about how people won't talk, they only talk about race and bad faith. Because I've

[pj_wehry]: tried to have conversations about race and eventually there's just this weird it.

[pj_wehry]: Somehow, it always veers off course and I can't figure out why, And and a lot of

[pj_wehry]: it comes down to that people aren't willing to talk about the actual concepts

[pj_wehry]: themselves. Um, one that. I also was really helpful for me, was your analysis of

[pj_wehry]: white privilege and the way that white privilege has been used as a blanket term

[pj_wehry]: to cover really two very different kinds of things, neither of which we would call

[pj_wehry]: privileges right. And that's rights and

[lewis_gordon]: yep.

[pj_wehry]: license. And that was so helpful because I have found that kind of covering in

[pj_wehry]: discussion where it's like. Well, I'm confused because they're like. Oh, it's

[pj_wehry]: white privilege to have, So you know, have food, shelter and safety, and I'm like

[pj_wehry]: it doesn't feel like. You know what

[lewis_gordon]: oh yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I mean Like doesn't feel that you know you're like, uh, I mean in talking in terms

[pj_wehry]: of like, um, not being harassed by the police. for instance, like you know safety

[pj_wehry]: from, and like, it doesn't feel like a privilege. Right that? That feels like

[pj_wehry]: something you

[lewis_gordon]: that's

[pj_wehry]: should have. like I should be all right.

[lewis_gordon]: that's correct. In fact, yeah, people who pick up the Bu didn't see that one

[lewis_gordon]: coming right. And

[lewis_gordon]: this is there is a way that black authors look like to get stereotyped. But

[lewis_gordon]: but a lot. but the truth is there a lot of black authors and

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: white authors who are invested in that problematic

[pj_wehry]: h.

[lewis_gordon]: concept. But yeah, the the bottom line, the issue isn't that white people have

[lewis_gordon]: those things. The issue is that we have a. A. a system

[lewis_gordon]: of Um. The distribution of resources that blocks a lot of other people from

[lewis_gordon]: having what every human

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: being should have, every human being should have access education, health care

[lewis_gordon]: goods, you know, um, safety, you know, uh, uh, fairness on the legal systems,

[lewis_gordon]: the list is

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: long, but these are things that everyone should have, But to tell, it's

[lewis_gordon]: bizarre to tell you. I mean, what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to

[lewis_gordon]: be feel, Can you? should you really tell a a, a white person you shouldn't

[lewis_gordon]: have

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: that? I mean, that makes no sense. The other thing, too, is it slides into a

[lewis_gordon]: perverse morralism, because if you think about it, it just comes down to

[lewis_gordon]: saying Okay for the white person to acknowledge the white privilege. Okay,

[lewis_gordon]: then the person says Okay, I'm I'm I'm a bad white person. I have a a white

[lewis_gordon]: privilege and then they go home to a society that stays

[pj_wehry]: yes, yes,

[lewis_gordon]: intact. No change

[lewis_gordon]: that that doesn't resolve. So my criticis,

[pj_wehry]: and get to feel morally superior.

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, because at least I'm

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[lewis_gordon]: not like other whites now Now. The So I, I find that

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[lewis_gordon]: despicable. Uh, what I? what? I? what I? I. I hold no punches on that

[pj_wehry]: No, you don't.

[lewis_gordon]: in a book, but um,

[lewis_gordon]: but but one of the things, there's several things I do point out that we

[lewis_gordon]: should bear. Mind you see, this is there. There are people who wanna so

[lewis_gordon]: individualize a political

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[lewis_gordon]: issue that it creates a kind of narcissm like their God's individual. You

[lewis_gordon]: could handle it, which is one of the reasons when we talk about racism. there

[lewis_gordon]: are many people who take it

[pj_wehry]: H.

[lewis_gordon]: personally

[lewis_gordon]: because you know it's just like if you're talking about sexism, you and I are

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: males.

[lewis_gordon]: Uh, they' they're We have seen males who are not interested in the problem of

[lewis_gordon]: sexism. They just want women to say they're not a

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: sexist male. That that's

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: narcism The right. Well, so we need. It's something where we do what a

[lewis_gordon]: political issue had on, and to do that we need to have the way yspers talked

[lewis_gordon]: about, but many others that we need to have something where people can

[lewis_gordon]: collaboratively do something. Now If we pick the license example, The prompt.

[lewis_gordon]: The difference between a license or privilege. This sentence makes no sense. I

[lewis_gordon]: have the privilege of murdering you.

[lewis_gordon]: That makes no sense. I have the privilege of stealing from you from

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: raping to rape you, You know

[pj_wehry]: yeah, I.

[lewis_gordon]: makes no sense

[pj_wehry]: yeah. it's It's an incredibly perverse abuse of the word

[lewis_gordon]: correct. However,

[lewis_gordon]: um, I was speakingj just about a few hours ago in an on a radio program with a

[lewis_gordon]: where the host I was in the U. K. So this reference was easy to to spot. You

[lewis_gordon]: know. it is possible to have a license to do

[pj_wehry]: Mhm, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: those things.

[lewis_gordon]: Uh, the iconic example is James Wand, The license to kill. Now, it means when

[lewis_gordon]: we think about it. If we look about, look at the way and again. In the book, I

[lewis_gordon]: make a distinction between white supremacy and

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: antili racism. But but let's just pi. white supremacy. White's supremacy

[lewis_gordon]: basically says, if

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: you are white, you can do whatever you want to people who are not white.

[lewis_gordon]: And and get away with it,

[lewis_gordon]: That's

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: a license and it, and in fact we notice, because there are you could easily

[lewis_gordon]: look at the documentary history of

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: ▁lynchings. The people who did it pose for the pictures they send post guards.

[pj_wehry]: right that way in the in the newspaper, right,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, they advertise it at. And so Th. It's very easy to go find out who did

[lewis_gordon]: it Who committed those

[pj_wehry]: H.

[lewis_gordon]: horrific acts of murder and they're fine.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: They're right. That's a license now. Some

[pj_wehry]: A, they, more than fine. they're celebrated right. That's the point of putting in

[pj_wehry]: the newspaper right,

[lewis_gordon]: they celebrate it.

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, now here's the thing that I I often bring up sometimes when I teach I

[lewis_gordon]: students. what would you do if I you were given a Licene to kill? You can kill

[lewis_gordon]: anybody you want, and you'll never be punished.

[lewis_gordon]: What would you do

[pj_wehry]: I mean, I,

[lewis_gordon]: and it's very interest? No, go ahead now, go ahead, go ahead,

[pj_wehry]: you wouldn't want. you wouldn't like it. I mean, why would I want to kill anyone

[pj_wehry]: Right? like,

[lewis_gordon]: ah, P. but you see, P. ▁j,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: this is the point. you're speaking now as an ethical person. An

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: ethical person would say, Wait a minute. wait a minute. Even though there are

[lewis_gordon]: people I may not

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: like.

[lewis_gordon]: I don't think any one should have this license.

[lewis_gordon]: You know, If we think about, for instance,

[lewis_gordon]: and and in a way, a kind of dog whistle, when Donald Trump was running for

[lewis_gordon]: President, was when he boasted he could shoot someone in the head and time

[lewis_gordon]: square and get away with it.

[lewis_gordon]: That's a coldde whistle to people who want license. It's announcement to join

[lewis_gordon]: him to for a a reclamation

[pj_wehry]: hm, Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: of license. Now now here's the thing.

[lewis_gordon]: if you take a position, nobody should have the license, but it was given to

[lewis_gordon]: you without you

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: asking for it.

[lewis_gordon]: That's different from if somebody says you have a privilege, and the reason

[lewis_gordon]: it's different

[lewis_gordon]: is because this is something you can get rid of and maintain your

[pj_wehry]: H,

[lewis_gordon]: humanity.

[lewis_gordon]: And here's how

[lewis_gordon]: you can say you know what. I'm going to collaborate with the people who don't

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: have the license and organize with other people who think nobody should have

[lewis_gordon]: this license, and to and to get rid of a world in which such having such a

[lewis_gordon]: licene as possible. In other words, you can do political

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: work. What? what's the point of saying? We want to do something about racism

[lewis_gordon]: if people can't work together to get rid of it.

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: But in the in that other model

[lewis_gordon]: you get defined in such a way There's nothing you can do than get rid of you,

[pj_wehry]: right, right, right, Yeah, which is Yes. Yeah, go ahead,

[lewis_gordon]: so so donene up. So that's the thing. I mean, you know. I mean

[lewis_gordon]: it's different. You want to enjoy a feminist struggle as a male. Nars is to

[lewis_gordon]: say you're a good male. That's that's that's a waste of time. But but it's

[lewis_gordon]: different if you say, look,

[lewis_gordon]: I don't want women to be discriminated, said Oh, my daughter, my mother, my

[lewis_gordon]: sister, and I also think the idea of constructing me by virtue of my, my, my

[lewis_gordon]: anatomy as su to women is a profound injustice to the humanity of them,

[lewis_gordon]: and to me because it constructs me as superior to them. So I want to fight

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm, Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: against sexism. You don't have to thank me, you don't have to say. I'm better

[lewis_gordon]: than other people. I'm joining in a struggle to make sure people are treated

[lewis_gordon]: with equal dignity and respect

[lewis_gordon]: that you can do,

[pj_wehry]: right, right and

[lewis_gordon]: And that's the point. not sorry. Goe Pj.

[pj_wehry]: yes, yeah, no, no, um, you know it's really interesting, Um, because when it

[pj_wehry]: becomes super individualized,

[pj_wehry]: uh, uh, and this does get valrized in Hollywood. I've talked to. I had Doctor

[pj_wehry]: Woodley on from the new school, Um, and we were talking about um. Uh, she

[pj_wehry]: mentioned how racism as like something mean people when mean people do mean things

[pj_wehry]: to other people Right And it's

[pj_wehry]: how do you? How do you stop that right? It's like you. You have to go out and hunt

[pj_wehry]: down the racist, and in a lot of ways that's kind of what people. and and it, The

[pj_wehry]: weird thing is it creates, Um

[pj_wehry]: it. it. And the uh, you know, there's this problematic thing where we often

[pj_wehry]: remember mass murderers more than they're victims because they're They're more

[pj_wehry]: interesting, right because we've become obsessed with that like. I mean, you look

[pj_wehry]: at all the shows about serial killers and it's almost the same thing with racist,

[pj_wehry]: where it's like we become infatuated with people who really should not be listened

[pj_wehry]: to. And uh, there is that. Um. You know, Fuko talks about that double spiral of

[pj_wehry]: the more you investigate something, even if that person is something you're

[pj_wehry]: investigating. That it, it pushes back into you

[pj_wehry]: if that makes sense,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, the sure. the thing that many people miss. Okay, If you want to dominate

[lewis_gordon]: a people, and the way you want to do, it is to be using tanks and guns and all

[lewis_gordon]: that all the time. that's a lot of resources.

[pj_wehry]: know it is. Yes,

[lewis_gordon]: But

[lewis_gordon]: if you

[lewis_gordon]: can create a whole web of beliefs that make them police themselves, they make

[lewis_gordon]: them believe their inferior

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: inferior, and make people who would have otherwise fought and joined them in a

[lewis_gordon]: struggle against their their demanization, believe they are superior.

[lewis_gordon]: What you? If you do it enough you can make you do something

[lewis_gordon]: Uh. with the effect of making the ongoing mechanism of deminization

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: ordinary, See the mistakes people make, and this is part of the problem. They

[lewis_gordon]: want to focus on these fabulous and

[lewis_gordon]: outrageous cases, but they don't realize that racism is mundane. You have to.

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: You have to make it reach a point almost like the way a fish is in water.

[lewis_gordon]: and I have to remind people that, Um, if we're talk about racists, not racism.

[lewis_gordon]: Many most racists

[lewis_gordon]: are nice people.

[pj_wehry]: right, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: In fact, most racs in some cases don't even know they racist. It's when they

[lewis_gordon]: encounter a situation

[lewis_gordon]: that makes them realize they want to maintain a system of the exclusion that

[lewis_gordon]: they begin to, and they, they don't want to be

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[lewis_gordon]: called racist.

[lewis_gordon]: called racist.

[lewis_gordon]: But they are actively involved in the maintenance of racism, And you know it's

[lewis_gordon]: funny when you think about it, you know. I remember. When I was a kid, I used

[lewis_gordon]: to watch the Andy Griffith show

[lewis_gordon]: and Mayberry looks so nice, doesn't it?

[lewis_gordon]: And it's in the South and the uh, you know the Shere, Everybody's goofy and

[pj_wehry]: y,

[lewis_gordon]: Andy and Opi

[lewis_gordon]: and I thought you know it looks so nice.

[lewis_gordon]: But if I showed up

[lewis_gordon]: and I and I began to realize Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: at when when when people like me are not around, these are very nice people.

[lewis_gordon]: They treat each other well,

[lewis_gordon]: and and in cases the condition if I am around is that I must somehow function

[lewis_gordon]: as an exception to their beliefs about black people in general,

[lewis_gordon]: which is the maintenance of that system. So I have to be around in a way that

[lewis_gordon]: says I won't change anything.

[lewis_gordon]: So this is an example of wanting permitting people to come in as long as they

[lewis_gordon]: don't change the game. But what if the game is

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[lewis_gordon]: the problem

[lewis_gordon]: you see, and I often put it this way? You know.

[lewis_gordon]: My issue is not that dairy, moral people or

[lewis_gordon]: racist individuals in the world.

[lewis_gordon]: My issue is that we've organized a world that puts a a lot of power behind

[lewis_gordon]: them.

[lewis_gordon]: If we disepower

[lewis_gordon]: that system. If we change things around,

[lewis_gordon]: then we're freed up to work on better relationships

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: with each other.

[lewis_gordon]: Now De, the people are the moralists For them. That's insufficient.

[lewis_gordon]: They're more obsessed that racist people exist, and they want to, as you said,

[lewis_gordon]: root them out and find them. Now. The point of the matter is Yo.

[lewis_gordon]: they're not powerful any morere.

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: They'rerrelevant There are a lot of people who could hate me as long as they.

[lewis_gordon]: they don't have guns and stuff are coming from me and trying to destroy me.

[lewis_gordon]: Um, they' have a right to live. They're human beings and one of the things we

[lewis_gordon]: have to have

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: room with, and this might tap into something. It's It's not exclusively

[lewis_gordon]: Christian, but it does tap into something.

[lewis_gordon]: Ah, that my guesses it connected to something you are love in Christianity.

[lewis_gordon]: and that, first of all, the first ems is that every human being is equal in

[lewis_gordon]: the eyes of God.

[lewis_gordon]: The second premise, though, which is a rather interesting one,

[lewis_gordon]: is that

[lewis_gordon]: you must let go of your ego

[lewis_gordon]: and enable

[lewis_gordon]: to to to create a situation

[lewis_gordon]: right. And it it, It's a complex one, because because God is the biggest

[pj_wehry]: right, hm,

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[lewis_gordon]: right, so you got a leg off your ego.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: I haveve got you have let go of your ego,

[lewis_gordon]: and to in doing so create a condition

[lewis_gordon]: in which other people can have possibility.

[pj_wehry]: hm

[lewis_gordon]: Now a moment you say the word possibility

[lewis_gordon]: right, It's not that people would at the end of the day change,

[lewis_gordon]: but there has to be faith in people's capacity to change.

[lewis_gordon]: But how could people exemplify that if we don't create the opportunities

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: you see? So so so the thing about it then

[lewis_gordon]: is that

[lewis_gordon]: even though

[lewis_gordon]: um, the mundane world may be built upon exclusion,

[lewis_gordon]: it's going to be very important

[lewis_gordon]: for us to create opportunities to bring an understanding of that in exclusion

[lewis_gordon]: to bear, and to bring with it

[lewis_gordon]: uh resources and mechanisms so people could work together to create a

[lewis_gordon]: healthier society

[lewis_gordon]: and I could give a a short example of this, Uh, a very

[pj_wehry]: Sure,

[lewis_gordon]: mundane one, right, but it's a rather striking one. I was speaking with um,

[lewis_gordon]: uh, in another interview the other day with with somebody who was Um in

[lewis_gordon]: Indiana,

[lewis_gordon]: And there was a time when I, I. I taught uh briefly in Indiana.

[pj_wehry]: right. you mentioned in the book Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah and um.

[lewis_gordon]: but what I did mention, Uh w in the. but it was this this story.

[lewis_gordon]: Um, see there parts. It's to today. it's more difficult because everybody has

[lewis_gordon]: smart phones and access to the Internet. But the time I'm talking about fewer

[lewis_gordon]: people add access to the Internet. It was such a big deal. In fact, when he

[lewis_gordon]: became a professorcause. You got this thing called an email. You know it was

[lewis_gordon]: such a big deal, but most people didn't have that, and in some places

[lewis_gordon]: especially if they're very very strict. in, in some

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: cases biblical, there's not even television. There's

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: not so right so that you can have certain farm areas where there are people

[lewis_gordon]: who are legally designated white

[lewis_gordon]: who never ever has never seen a non white person

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: ever.

[lewis_gordon]: And in that world all they hear about

[lewis_gordon]: are negative

[lewis_gordon]: statements on what those people are, The the non white people. Now, what's

[lewis_gordon]: rather interesting? After a certain while, they do learn about the word racism

[lewis_gordon]: and racist? Now what's interesting in a lot of those people in' world? A lot

[lewis_gordon]: of these young people yet convinced that they are racist Because in that

[pj_wehry]: yeah, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: context I think racism is right.

[lewis_gordon]: that ▁ultimate, because think about it. If black people are really all these

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: things, they hear

[lewis_gordon]: things, they hear

[lewis_gordon]: what's wrong with Be ercist.

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: So so then what happens is they go to a public university.

[lewis_gordon]: There's suddenly in a place where there black students working around. They

[lewis_gordon]: may even come to a classroom with as a black

[lewis_gordon]: professor.

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Now they've walked into that environment completely convinced. Erasist. You

[lewis_gordon]: got it. now, What I, what I experienced was that there's some when they saw

[lewis_gordon]: that a black professor got up and walked

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: out the classroom.

[lewis_gordon]: But there were others who stayed

[lewis_gordon]: and after a while we taught we got to know each other.

[lewis_gordon]: The a conversation as follows inevitably happens, you know Professor Gordon.

[lewis_gordon]: this is the first time I, this is the first. I'm a freshman. It's the first

[lewis_gordon]: time I've ever even been around black people,

[lewis_gordon]: and if I could tell you the things that I thought black people were,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: but then I, so are they expect you to meet these

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: monsters and they said, But instead they walked into a place where they were

[lewis_gordon]: like, Uh, they're human beings here

[lewis_gordon]: and then they're like Some this. There's a disconnction going on. I'm not

[lewis_gordon]: supposed to ▁. like you. I'm not supposed. I'm not a lot of. I'm

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: not supposed to, and you're supposed to be this way in that way, but none of

[lewis_gordon]: that

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: is there. What's going on and then they. So you see where I'm going with this.

[lewis_gordon]: There's some people who are raised racist, but discover they're not

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: racist. Not through a project of not being racist, but' their realization that

[lewis_gordon]: they

[lewis_gordon]: lack the capacity to block access to seeing a black person or a Native

[lewis_gordon]: American as

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[lewis_gordon]: a human being, and those people end up going through a kind of cosmic shift

[lewis_gordon]: and how they see the world and do things, And some of those students, for

[lewis_gordon]: instance, I said, you know you need to see more of the world. I wrote letters

[lewis_gordon]: for them to travel,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: orbroad,

[lewis_gordon]: all kinds of other things, Some of them write me to this day. I'm talking

[lewis_gordon]: about, you know, gone up

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: thirty years ago. so, but my, but by my point is, it's

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: not everybody

[lewis_gordon]: right. Some people did

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: leave the room,

[lewis_gordon]: but the point is that

[lewis_gordon]: when it comes to this in their

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: world,

[lewis_gordon]: they grew up with people who in every other aspect of life were're nice. In

[lewis_gordon]: many places that are racist. They're people who check on their neighbors. May

[lewis_gordon]: or come over and say, bring them, um, a piece of cake, or they go to churches

[lewis_gordon]: together, or you know they do. They may, if if there's a tornado go through a

[lewis_gordon]: lot of

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: tornadoes in Indiana. They, they join in and help them

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: build up the barn or fix the houses or those tornadoes that hit Kentucky. Yet

[lewis_gordon]: there are a lot of

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: racist people there, but a lot of them were sit working together, trying to

[lewis_gordon]: rebuild communities. You see, what I'm getting at the humanity of the people

[lewis_gordon]: can be such that we have to deal with a system that makes it ordinary for them

[lewis_gordon]: fit to fail to connect with that common humanity. And that's that's where the

[lewis_gordon]: political work and the individualized moral work come in. Because if I is a

[lewis_gordon]: professor, take the position that any white student who comes into my

[lewis_gordon]: classroom must not be addressed as a human

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm, hm,

[lewis_gordon]: being as a student. That's a. That's an

[lewis_gordon]: unethical professor. I

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: shouldn't be teaching. I have to see every student who comes into my classroom

[lewis_gordon]: as a possibility,

[lewis_gordon]: not as an epistemological closure.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, absolutely, um,

[pj_wehry]: man, I, I, just it's always such a joy to talk to you and there's so much there.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, you know you you mentioned and I think it's come up a couple of times when you

[pj_wehry]: talk about the system.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, is there other there? other terms that could be used for it? Something that

[pj_wehry]: seems to come up a lot. Are the narratives in place with the system? Could we

[pj_wehry]: even? would a synonym be a web of narratives, Because it seems like the majority

[pj_wehry]: of it is that you know you talk about that web of beliefs, but it's almost a

[pj_wehry]: thicker description of it than that where it's like this whole. How the way that

[pj_wehry]: it works. Does that make sense? Am I tracking with you?

[lewis_gordon]: Sure,

[lewis_gordon]: well, the thing to remember is you could probably guess as you read the book.

[lewis_gordon]: One of the things I con consistently do is to challenge what I call singular

[lewis_gordon]: readings of

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: human phenomena that it's both end. There are many

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: things at once, so for instance, uh, what a system is

[lewis_gordon]: is a repeated,

[lewis_gordon]: a form of repeated practice that in its repetition develops

[lewis_gordon]: intelligibility. It begins to make sense. It's how people interpret the world.

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: Another way of interpreted that. interpreting that is in structuralism, where

[lewis_gordon]: they say a structure is a rule that enables other rules that enable things to

[lewis_gordon]: function. You see.

[lewis_gordon]: So once we understand that, even though that's a more abstract technical way

[lewis_gordon]: of putting it, that includes narratives and other things as well, now the

[lewis_gordon]: thing about it is

[lewis_gordon]: in ordinary logic. so to speak, you are able to look at something as logical

[lewis_gordon]: because it has an order and it's

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: well formed. The technical term is well formed, formula. in ordinary language

[lewis_gordon]: a complete sentence Right.

[lewis_gordon]: The problem, of course, is that a human being is not really a being. it's not

[lewis_gordon]: really a complete sentence. A human being, in a present particable sense, is

[lewis_gordon]: an ongoing activity,

[lewis_gordon]: which means that human created phenomena

[lewis_gordon]: have subsets of completeness. But the overall thing is open.

[lewis_gordon]: Why that is important

[lewis_gordon]: is because

[lewis_gordon]: when we forget that it's human beings that create Hu, create the

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: systems we live in.

[lewis_gordon]: We ontologze, we make them fixed and permanent, when they actually depend on

[lewis_gordon]: us to function,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: which means we can do them in a different way,

[pj_wehry]: right. right, which is all about opening Ear Book is is a political act because

[pj_wehry]: it's opening a possibility.

[lewis_gordon]: Correct. In fact, when a description I add of students is, I don't see

[lewis_gordon]: students

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: as things.

[lewis_gordon]: I see students as communicative opportunities,

[lewis_gordon]: And that is ongoing, or the way I usually say to students I work with. I

[lewis_gordon]: always. every class I teach I ask open with a question. What is a professor

[lewis_gordon]: and is? likewise, this professor Asenus, What's a professor? said they, and

[lewis_gordon]: they almost all always give an example of a of a

[lewis_gordon]: obnoxious dictator or Moses with the tablet,

[lewis_gordon]: And I say Well, you ask him what a student is and you know they say somebody

[lewis_gordon]: wants to learn. I said Well, you know the way I understand myself as a

[lewis_gordon]: professor is someone who fell in love with

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[lewis_gordon]: learning and never stopped. In other words, a lifelong student, and as an

[lewis_gordon]: advanced student, because I've been doing it a long time, I could tell you as

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: an advanced student every time I meet a new student, that new student is

[lewis_gordon]: bringing experiences I

[lewis_gordon]: may not have had, which means that that student may have a different

[lewis_gordon]: orientation or angle on what I'm studying, which means every semester I've

[lewis_gordon]: taught, I've learned something from a

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: student, so my students realize. Oh, wait a minute. they're

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: active. They're not to be passive. And then together I said, So the classroom

[lewis_gordon]: is a co learning experience and we work together. Now. Why do we? what what

[lewis_gordon]: happens there?

[lewis_gordon]: It means they can be critical. We can learn together. and it means the subject

[lewis_gordon]: is open, and in fact, I even extend that to an existential concept. I mean

[lewis_gordon]: understanding of reading my Sts. over. Shocked when I said nobody's ever read

[lewis_gordon]: a philosophy book. In fact, nobody's ever read a book. and you're like, What

[lewis_gordon]: are you talking about? I said No, it, you are reading it. You're in an ongoing

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[lewis_gordon]: relationship with it, even even short children's books. The things you read

[lewis_gordon]: when you are six

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: seven years old. If you picked them up to day, you're like Ha. I didn't notice

[lewis_gordon]: that,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: right this. This reading makes you see new things, and I said,

[pj_wehry]: Never mind when you learn different versions of the fairy tales you read as a kid.

[pj_wehry]: I remember reading. I read the complete

[lewis_gordon]: Oh yeah.

[pj_wehry]: Grims fairy tales and then you go back and watch like

[lewis_gordon]: oh

[pj_wehry]: the old Disney, and you' like

[pj_wehry]: That's not what that means.

[lewis_gordon]: yeah. yeah. in in in in in the first

[pj_wehry]: Oh yeah.

[lewis_gordon]: edition. ah, uh, The the, The, The ▁queen was Snow White's biological mother.

[lewis_gordon]: That freaked out audiences. So the grime brothers rerote it to say the

[lewis_gordon]: biological mother died, and the ▁queen is the stepmother.

[pj_wehry]: oh,

[pj_wehry]: bem.

[lewis_gordon]: But but yeah, but but but my point is that openness you see, learning

[lewis_gordon]: is a communicative practice in which in which we learned together,

[lewis_gordon]: That's the thing. And and we should be sufficiently sufficiently secure

[lewis_gordon]: about our humanity to be open for that ongoing practice. And it's not that

[lewis_gordon]: they are not things that we know. we know the H. two O is water,

[lewis_gordon]: but we also know that things that look like water are not necessarily H to O.

[pj_wehry]: this is true. Yes, and someone's experience of water who grew up on the coastline

[pj_wehry]: is very different from someone's experience of H. O, who grew up in the Midwest,

[pj_wehry]: and even in the Midwest, someone who grew up in Indiana, versus someone who grew

[pj_wehry]: up in Wisconsin, near the Great Lakes. I mean all very

[lewis_gordon]: Sure,

[pj_wehry]: different experiences of H two O.

[lewis_gordon]: yeah, I, and and e, and even more, even when we think about oceans,

[lewis_gordon]: I remember the first time I saw the Pacific Ocean. It bugged me out.

[lewis_gordon]: but because look when I was a child he went to the beach. It's all the

[lewis_gordon]: Atlantic Ocean and everybody Atlantic ocean people. The ocean goes out like

[lewis_gordon]: that. It go. It almost goes down. and

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: there is the sun. And even when I went in into the midws in Chicago, and

[lewis_gordon]: places saw the Great Lakes,

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: it was similar. You know,

[lewis_gordon]: if you go to

[lewis_gordon]: Washington State, Oregon, California knows it's weird, but the the Pacific

[lewis_gordon]: Ocean goes up,

[lewis_gordon]: and then it goes over

[pj_wehry]: h,

[lewis_gordon]: to the horizon and I was like this is weird

[lewis_gordon]: and there are all

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: kinds of things. It's cloor and so forth, an out. And then at at that moment I

[lewis_gordon]: began to realize Yo. They're Pacific Ocean people and their Atlantic Ocean

[lewis_gordon]: people,

[lewis_gordon]: and I, you know, and then there. and and I remember too when I was in in in in

[lewis_gordon]: in af in a Ggon across Africa. there's the Atlantic part of Africa, and then

[lewis_gordon]: there's the Indian Ocean, part of Africa. The Indian Ocean is

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[lewis_gordon]: so different, but again these are things. Yeah, Yeah, there's salt and is

[lewis_gordon]: water, Anda blah, blah blah. It's far more complicated than we realize. And

[lewis_gordon]: but even when we study stuff in astronomy, if you look at Eurpa or Titan, and

[lewis_gordon]: so forth, there are places out there where it looks like an ocean in, you

[lewis_gordon]: know, beneath the ice in certain places, But that's methane. A, and a lot of

[lewis_gordon]: us don't realize, And there are things in physics a lot of us don't realize

[lewis_gordon]: 'cause we see ourselves as solid, but you know, relative to something that is

[lewis_gordon]: much colder than us, we're a gas. we're

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: gaseous and something even colder. We're just light. We're just

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: energy and there are people that just don't understand it. And then there are

[lewis_gordon]: other simple things. a simple philosophical exercise on perspective. The way I

[lewis_gordon]: usually teach what the

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: body is

[lewis_gordon]: is to say you know a body is basically a location through which you're able to

[lewis_gordon]: say the word there,

[lewis_gordon]: here and there. It's a Sp. temple coordinate. Now the way you live, it is

[lewis_gordon]: different. We see ourselves as fully bodied, so when I go what I do is, I

[lewis_gordon]: often put a dot, just a little dot with a marker on the on the

[pj_wehry]: mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: whiteboard. Okay, these days is mostly whiteboard In the pat of was blackbard.

[lewis_gordon]: So I put a with a chalked dot right,

[lewis_gordon]: and I said, You ever wonder if a dot had a point of view how we would

[lewis_gordon]: experience it? Imagine it, and of course the dot's point of view would be as a

[lewis_gordon]: full body like I am one big dot

[lewis_gordon]: you see, And we don't realize that If you imagine if they you see a friend,

[lewis_gordon]: you say by in a fringe steps in a helicopter, you're both fully embdied, but

[lewis_gordon]: as that helicopter begins to rise, you get smaller and smaller and smaller,

[lewis_gordon]: and before you name, see your. Hands waving, 'cause you're just a dot,

[lewis_gordon]: and from the as so, what you think is just a

[pj_wehry]: H.

[lewis_gordon]: fixed object is a whole living reality and the people, and when you look up at

[lewis_gordon]: them, that little dot that's going away, That helicopter. You think it is like

[lewis_gordon]: a little frozen dot, but is a whole life going on in there And this is the

[lewis_gordon]: thing we' missing when we, when we try to deal with communication into

[lewis_gordon]: subjectivity, embodiment and all of that that there is. from a relational

[lewis_gordon]: perspective. A lot going on

[lewis_gordon]: in lived reality

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, and I love that and I think that's why I connect so much with Uh. The way

[pj_wehry]: one your philosophical emphasis, and the way you do philosophy is, I think one of

[pj_wehry]: the biggest strokes we have as human beings, at least uh, from my own experience

[pj_wehry]: is that we don't realize the fullness and richness uh, of everyone else's internal

[pj_wehry]: experience right, like we, we look at other people and we see them as this, like,

[pj_wehry]: com, uh, complex shape, uh, constellation of things that we know about them, and

[pj_wehry]: these identities that we kind of try to box in, and it's like they are

[pj_wehry]: experiencing life in the same way that you are. I mean even to take the the dumb.

[pj_wehry]: uh, sorry. not that. not that you're the dot is dumb. You're not your example's

[pj_wehry]: not dumb. but the yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: could be could be

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: a brilliant dot Could be a brilliant dot.

[pj_wehry]: but the uh. to take the Dod example that like, if you were actually a dot, Like

[pj_wehry]: what to us, as we think of as a circle. No, it would. It would be very important

[pj_wehry]: to the dot, All the little granual differentiations we, when you do like, I mean,

[pj_wehry]: they would probably organize themselves depending on F. They were slightly square

[pj_wehry]: and we wouldn't be able to tell the difference right. Like if you had a series of

[pj_wehry]: dots. Um, and so it's just really. um,

[pj_wehry]: yeah, I. I. I really appreciate that. Uh, I have a question and this might be

[pj_wehry]: because I have a proof copy, but I have to. I have to ask us for my own curiosity,

[pj_wehry]: because I almost never get to ask these kind of questions on page ninety three.

[pj_wehry]: Um, I laughed about this for ten minutes and it's because I enjoy the ambiguity of

[pj_wehry]: this. Um,

[lewis_gordon]: This is the the final

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: copy. By the way, we' talking about copies, I mean they'll be listening, but

[lewis_gordon]: this is the Penguig

[lewis_gordon]: Warundabout British copy. But some people would, some people say, I have to

[pj_wehry]: Oh, that's cool.

[lewis_gordon]: give a shot out to the artist. Her name is Sim

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: Abbe, who did that one and I I love both copies because they S

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: so much and then so and then this is the U. S. copy. Bynock him a Korean

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: American artist and she Ss. so much because it's

[pj_wehry]: right.

[lewis_gordon]: ambiguous right is the Black rising or slipping? You know,

[lewis_gordon]: But anyway you were saying Page ninety three.

[pj_wehry]: yes, you say. uh, even an otherwise good bloke such as the actor Lem Nison. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: infamously confessed to when to kill random black men. Um.

[pj_wehry]: I, why did you use the word bloqu?

[lewis_gordon]: Oh, pretty

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: straightforward because you know I' I'm a global dude. I've been all over the

[lewis_gordon]: place. I have a family in

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: the U. K. and I'm also of Scottish and Irish ancestry

[pj_wehry]: okay, yeah, I wondered. Yeah.

[lewis_gordon]: And so I did it

[pj_wehry]: Okay

[lewis_gordon]: on purpose to. Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: to connect to deli of Nsan. It was. the word choice

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: was so unexpected for me that I like I, and I couldn't tell if that was view being

[pj_wehry]: Um. it. there is a lot of ambigu possible ambiguity there. Uh, if you were being

[pj_wehry]: sarcastic with the good bloke, or if you actually meet, you actually think of him

[pj_wehry]: as a good bloke, but be and I go ahead.

[lewis_gordon]: otherwise I used to love the At Leam Nsen. That so disappointed me when that

[pj_wehry]: Oh yeah for sure, and that, I mean, and rightfully so I.

[lewis_gordon]: happened, you know.

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: the.

[pj_wehry]: but I, I think it's be. I. I would have read it as you just being disappointed.

[pj_wehry]: Otherwise, you know, if you'd put an otherwise good guy like Leam, Nson, but when

[pj_wehry]: you put bloke I, it set my mind into like several different paths of like. Is he

[pj_wehry]: being sarcastic like he's not really a good bloke at all? I mean, obviously not

[pj_wehry]: like that, but I, I got a real kick out of that, so I not often I get to ask an

[pj_wehry]: author

[pj_wehry]: about those little, uh, those little details. So I enjoyed that. Um,

[lewis_gordon]: yeah, yeah, that. and it also doess. Yeah, it's just more for fun also in

[lewis_gordon]: reading and writing and there ways in which we can talk about communities. but

[lewis_gordon]: also one of the things is, Um

[lewis_gordon]: to to point out, this is to bring out the point about

[lewis_gordon]: environments. We can have environments that bring out the worst in us, and

[lewis_gordon]: environments that bring out the best in us. And you could tell my everything,

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: every all of my work. because I'm a really committed person to the

[lewis_gordon]: concept of freedom is is people's capacity for growth or for change. And I

[lewis_gordon]: think we're in deep trouble. Whereing as when we reach a point where Um,

[lewis_gordon]: we don't commit ourselves to creating conditions for change.

[pj_wehry]: right. Well, that's what. the's the way people

[lewis_gordon]: You know.

[pj_wehry]: always will' always be like that right at.

[pj_wehry]: such's a dangerous sentiment,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: it really is it really. And and when people are afraid of truth, you see. a

[lewis_gordon]: lot of people think truth is fixed, but truth is also revealing the capacity

[lewis_gordon]: for change.

[lewis_gordon]: you know. Um, you know it it. It's really terrible this effort that's being

[lewis_gordon]: done in this country right now to suppress truth, the idea, A, and, and to use

[lewis_gordon]: the arm the the argument about

[lewis_gordon]: discomfort.

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: But the fact to the matter is Um,

[lewis_gordon]: you know at and some levels certain people don't want their children to to

[lewis_gordon]: know that

[lewis_gordon]: Um. they were not at their best in certain periods of this country's history,

[lewis_gordon]: very recent periods. But I think the best thing you could teach your children

[lewis_gordon]: is not to hide the truth from them, but to say you know what. In revealing the

[lewis_gordon]: truth to you, I'm demonstrating to you my commitment to change those things

[lewis_gordon]: were wrong,

[lewis_gordon]: and

[lewis_gordon]: I would like us together as a family

[lewis_gordon]: to learn how to build change.

[lewis_gordon]: Because you see if you keep bllyd to your children, some point they are going

[lewis_gordon]: to have to like those farm kids in Indiana. Talk about, go to college so forth

[lewis_gordon]: and

[lewis_gordon]: they' be quite disappointed because the message that's being given in that

[lewis_gordon]: suppression

[lewis_gordon]: is the mistaking view that people cannot do otherwise,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: And and that message in one's actions is to say to one's children I cannot

[lewis_gordon]: change. We cannot

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: change.

[lewis_gordon]: But if one acknowledges having done things that

[lewis_gordon]: today one regrets

[lewis_gordon]: and say,

[lewis_gordon]: I would like us to work together to build things of which we can be proud.

[lewis_gordon]: I think that's the best gift you can give as parent to your children.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah, my. probably my favorite part of being a parent is having my chil. My

[pj_wehry]: kids surprise me right like

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, I love it

[pj_wehry]: that. That possibility is, I mean, even, and I that that love comes through. Uh,

[pj_wehry]: is your son's name is it? Elijah? Yes, what do you talk about like his different

[pj_wehry]: comedic action throughout the book. You know I like, and I' love that you know.

[pj_wehry]: Um, uh, My oldest is a little bit of a clown and my youngest is just a clear

[pj_wehry]: warrior. You know like he'. He's so. it surprises me with how aggressive he is And

[pj_wehry]: it's just and I'm constantly. as much as I even characterize like that. I'm just

[pj_wehry]: constantly surprised like I, we. We start to think of someone this way, and the

[pj_wehry]: amazing thing about kids is they haven't learned yet

[pj_wehry]: to to put themselves in the boxes we give them, and my probably my biggest

[pj_wehry]: challenge is the parent is to uh, avoid those boxes as much as I can. right, like

[pj_wehry]: we. we want to enforce. You know certain, uh ways of thinking, and then you, you

[pj_wehry]: start to look and see what they can become And it's it's really, uh, amazing and I

[pj_wehry]: think that's that really speaks to what you talked about. Um, I had to think

[pj_wehry]: through this uh phrase a little bit to understand what you' getting at to act from

[pj_wehry]: commitment, Uh, defies imitation.

[pj_wehry]: and

[lewis_gordon]: correct. That's

[pj_wehry]: that that idea I don't want my kids to be like me, and that to love is to open up

[pj_wehry]: the possibilities of a completely different but hopefully better world.

[lewis_gordon]: well said, well said, and in fact I have I have four children, two boys, two

[lewis_gordon]: girls. the boys are book ends and I gotta tell you, I'm constantly

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: learning from my children, but you know they are also these wonderful moments

[lewis_gordon]: because I bring up different diff. I bring them up in different ways in the

[lewis_gordon]: book. You know, for instance, my oldlest son is rare is the one where I bring

[lewis_gordon]: up with the

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: policeman example. But uh, but the um,

[lewis_gordon]: but the. But there are these moments where we surprise our kids And this is

[lewis_gordon]: what I mean. There are times because my children are all adults. Now they're

[lewis_gordon]: not kids any more. They're you know, they're in their twenties and thirties,

[lewis_gordon]: and um the moments when they visit

[lewis_gordon]: and they discover that it was something they introduced me to,

[lewis_gordon]: and and that I love it and

[pj_wehry]: yes, yes,

[lewis_gordon]: I'm doing it and I've corrected my language on the basis of what they taught

[lewis_gordon]: me. They're like. Oh wow, Dad does

[lewis_gordon]: that. I didn't expect that

[pj_wehry]: da changes. Yes,

[lewis_gordon]: and I realized that's yeah, it's not only what they teach, but when they, what

[lewis_gordon]: happens to our children when they see our capacity to change

[pj_wehry]: H,

[lewis_gordon]: and learn.

[lewis_gordon]: And and you know, because I mean, you know, Um,

[lewis_gordon]: I was born in the sixties, and you know the sixties. And but you know, and and

[lewis_gordon]: I was an adolescent in the seventies and the seventies was wild, but the

[lewis_gordon]: seventy, but the seventies. the Noman

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Cllacher. It's not like what we have. They're things that we saw, but we had

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: no language for which

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: just didn't and these generations are developing language for those things. I

[lewis_gordon]: mean you know, for instance, even when we say words like

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: Tnd today in the seventies, you transsexual or

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: transvestite, but there's this more complicated insight in the term just

[lewis_gordon]: saying

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: trance that connects to things like disciplines, and uh, and the openness of

[lewis_gordon]: relations that people can have. And at first when I just kept hearing Trnds, I

[lewis_gordon]: thought that was weird, but then as I looked through it and thought through

[lewis_gordon]: it, I thought you know it

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: makes sense, So I went and bought a whole bunch of books, started studying and

[lewis_gordon]: then I, and then it in front of me. They're trans students and we're working

[lewis_gordon]: and we're learning and I, and and I'm introduced to a world where where

[lewis_gordon]: it informs me, it makes me grow as a human being and the relationships are

[lewis_gordon]: enriching. And so you know, Wh, when uh, you know, M one, one of my children

[lewis_gordon]: publicly identifies as ▁queer. Um, you know, say, and we're talking at at at a

[lewis_gordon]: moment you know says wow,

[lewis_gordon]: wow, Dad, you know, I, I had no idea, but you know 'cause it's

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: an adult now and this, And and because she you know, didn't see me as Um

[pj_wehry]: hm, yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: as a phhobic

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: or anything like that. It is. Just instead, it was more trying to say there's

[lewis_gordon]: this

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[lewis_gordon]: whole language and I wonder how that would be if Dad thought

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: about that, but then discovering Dad

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[lewis_gordon]: did think about it, learn and thank her for that and other people as well. And

[lewis_gordon]: did think about it, learn and thank her for that and other people as well. And

[lewis_gordon]: that's point, and there are many other things you know. It's not just about

[lewis_gordon]: that's point, and there are many other things you know. It's not just about

[lewis_gordon]: those cons. There are many things that we could learn you know from our from

[lewis_gordon]: those cons. There are many things that we could learn you know from our from

[lewis_gordon]: our from our children, But the thing is

[lewis_gordon]: our from our children, But the thing is

[lewis_gordon]: we have to be secure

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: enough

[lewis_gordon]: for our Ch. To to in front of our children, reveal that we're not all knowing

[lewis_gordon]: we're not gods. It's funny. It's what I was talking about today. class. I was

[lewis_gordon]: teaching some

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: on de Bovoir and she opens a book. Um, you know, Um,

[lewis_gordon]: you know, uh po. you know. The book translated, as you know, for an ethics

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: of ambiguity, and she opens up with saying, You know children are in a world

[lewis_gordon]: where parents are gods, because they believe we

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: always have it right.

[lewis_gordon]: and there's a point at which

[lewis_gordon]: even when they daydream they hope one day to be those gods. But the reason

[lewis_gordon]: adolescence is so tumultuous is because they are realizing their parents are

[lewis_gordon]: not gods. their parents are human beings, and oh my God, they realize where

[lewis_gordon]: they were younger. They had a kind of security in the belief that their

[pj_wehry]: right, Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: parents

[pj_wehry]: right,

[lewis_gordon]: were gods, because they believe their parents

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: could protect them. But then when they realize their parents are not gods,

[lewis_gordon]: such just human beings, like everybody else means your parents can't really

[lewis_gordon]: protect you any more they could try. But they, you now face the same

[lewis_gordon]: limitations as your parents. and for it makes it tumultuous because you're

[lewis_gordon]: struggling to deal with that

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: responsibility. And and so there's this moment

[lewis_gordon]: in which what of discovery

[lewis_gordon]: right that that, what a secure parent would say is I never was a God. It's

[lewis_gordon]: just that I was responsible to do my best to take care of you and protect you.

[lewis_gordon]: And sometimes I failed. Sometimes I succeed. but at the end of the day your

[lewis_gordon]: ability, your ability to live in the world as

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: a good human being brings me

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: joy.

[pj_wehry]: as always, so good. I if I could just ask you to uh, kind of wrap up here. I want

[pj_wehry]: to be respectful of your time. Um,

[pj_wehry]: obviously, people, I think they should read your book, but uh, let's say after

[pj_wehry]: they read your book, What three books? Uh? would you uh recommend to dig deeper

[pj_wehry]: into Uh, this kind of topic, this idea of political commitment and the opening up

[pj_wehry]: of possibility.

[lewis_gordon]: Well, one, because it's the sevenenttieth anniversary of the book is Fraance

[lewis_gordon]: Fernand's Blackskin White Mass,

[pj_wehry]: Ohs, that that's why it was

[lewis_gordon]: Another one.

[pj_wehry]: on sale. I mean, not that that's why I bought it, but maybe it was

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, there's a book. There's a book I came across that, Um it that it's very

[lewis_gordon]: insightful. It's by a woman by the name of Uh, Gilianquani

[lewis_gordon]: and um. it's called Living while black.

[lewis_gordon]: She is a therapist and she just gets it a point and says some really really

[lewis_gordon]: extraordinary things

[lewis_gordon]: and I. I. I. I do think that's a a beautiful book to read.

[lewis_gordon]: And there is

[lewis_gordon]: a book by the a woman by the name of Nathalli E Tok. It's called Black

[lewis_gordon]: Melancholia. It's a mixture of port and writing, but she she, she delves.

[pj_wehry]: Hm. Hm,

[lewis_gordon]: She's an a Cameroonian woman who delves. actually. Both of these women are

[lewis_gordon]: connected to Cameroon, but they're really beautiful

[lewis_gordon]: explorations. and um,

[lewis_gordon]: uh, a Toky's book has a concept called four slash giving,

[lewis_gordon]: And it's a really insightful thing to to tap into. Uh, And I wrote the forward

[lewis_gordon]: to

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[lewis_gordon]: the English edition because I fell in love with the book. I read it in French

[lewis_gordon]: before and what it is is, you know, A, when people have harmed people in a

[lewis_gordon]: society that's based on contracts, they don't actually want to be forgiven.

[lewis_gordon]: Because if you forgive them, they think they owe you. they don't wa to owe

[lewis_gordon]: anybody anything. So, but she wanted to create a concept of a different kind

[lewis_gordon]: of giving where there's a way to move on without a sense of

[lewis_gordon]: ongoing debt.

[pj_wehry]: H,

[lewis_gordon]: And I leave it at that.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[lewis_gordon]: Fb. should read her book to see to see it.

[pj_wehry]: and that's black melancholia,

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, yeah, no, no, it, it. It's it's It's yeah. y it. No, No, it's not black

[lewis_gordon]: melancholia. I say blame. I said the name wrong. I'm sorry about that. It's

[lewis_gordon]: called melancholia Afriicana,

[pj_wehry]: Oh, awesome, thank you.

[lewis_gordon]: Yeah, melancholy Afriicana, Sorry,

[lewis_gordon]: I said the title wrong, but melancholy Afriana,

[pj_wehry]: No, absolutely. Um,

[pj_wehry]: oh,

[pj_wehry]: uh, Doctor Gordon, absolute pleasure, Um, and to our listeners, if you enjoy the

[pj_wehry]: depth, Uh conversation, if you learn something, Um, which I can't see how you

[pj_wehry]: couldn't have, Uh, please like share and subscribe so someone else can to uh,

[pj_wehry]: appreciate it,

[lewis_gordon]: thank you appreciated. P. ▁j, and

[lewis_gordon]: excuse me for the cough, but to everybody out there, as I said before,

[lewis_gordon]: Be

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[lewis_gordon]: safe. healthy. Ah, I wish you love, and I know times are difficult, but do

[lewis_gordon]: find joy. You need to remember your humanity.