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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. This episode contains content about marriage and sex that might not be suitable for some younger listeners. Let's get into the episode.
Tammy Brown:Well, welcome to this episode of The Debrief with Matthew Steven Brown. And we have some really good questions today.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. You guys are you guys have outdone yourself. So thank you.
Tammy Brown:Thank you guys so much for the questions that you sent in. It's they're really fantastic. This first one comes from Sarah in Garupa Valley, California. She says this, I currently serve on the worship team. Thank you so much.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Thank you for serving.
Tammy Brown:And I've been struggling to figure out if my desire to serve more is from selfish ambition or if it's God's calling. How do I stay humble and obedient to God while wanting to grow in my gifting?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, that is a great question, Sarah. And I would just say, I think we all struggle with that. You know, I think motives Online. Motives are the most important question to ask in everything that we do as a Christian. So God doesn't just care about what we do, God cares about why we do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's one of the things that Jesus talks about, you know, so extensively. We're in Matthew six right now, and I don't know where we'll be when this comes out, But do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, right? For your Father in heaven is watching when you give. And so we don't want to just do things so that we look good or sound good or, you know, and I've struggled this, you know, like with social media, when it first came out, know, I'm an older person, you know, juggling this, so I'm not, you know, I didn't grow up with social media. You didn't, know, this is something that's been new to us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like why am I going to post this? Why am I going to say this? I think it's important that I interact in that medium, but why am I doing that? What's the purpose behind that? And so that's something that I wrestle with.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, when I write a book, why do I want to do this? I mean, Tammy and I talk about this repeatedly in my struggles. You know, she's like, Just write it to bless people. And, you know, for those of you who know the enneagram, I'm a three, right, so I wanna be successful, I wanna make a I wanna
Tammy Brown:write the number one book ever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I wanna write the number one book ever, and crush purpose driven life in the name of Jesus, you know.
Tammy Brown:Never happened.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Which is so, yeah.
Tammy Brown:Sad anyone.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I think he outsold the Bible, which I don't know that is a good thing.
Tammy Brown:Go ahead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Probably not now, because people are buying Bibles again. Praise God, way to go. Now it's incredible. You know, so I think we all have to evaluate that. And so, I mean, that's in everything, you know, with the car that we drive, the house that we live in, the money that we make, the job that we have, but especially Sarah, as a worship leader.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So think about what your job is. You are marching our church into battle. And so everyone listening is struggling with the same thing. So they're all right. Are they gonna lay down their tithe?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Are they gonna lay down that idol to worship God? Are they gonna lay down? That's You know, I think about Donna's sermon for Mother's Day. I was so convicted. You know, I actually was thinking about doing a sermon series.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I've struggled with many sins, but my, the sins that I've struggled with have changed as I've aged. And you know, I would never, you know, when she quoted Hebrews and she said, let bitterness not take root. And I went, oh, okay, this is what's going on in my life. And I've struggled with bitterness before, and then, you know, I came home and shared with you, had a really tough conversation with a couple of pastors. It didn't go well.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I totally offended them. I didn't mean to. I told Tammy, you know, I apologize, and I said, I didn't mean it at all, but I apologize. And then I was convicted by that. But I was walking away from the argument, and I think it's okay for pastors to argue, because we were arguing about things that matter, and differences of opinion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I was totally offended by them. And I was in the parking lot, and I actually, was God spoke to me, and it wasn't just, He didn't just speak, but it was like writing appeared in the sky. And it said, why do you care more about those who've offended you than the one who saved you? And I was like, woah, total conviction. So what I would say is, think of all the marriages, Sarah, so in your prayer time, they're on the rocks.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:All the guys struggling with porn addiction, all the people in love with America, everyone seeking fame, the kids with depression, people battling anxiety, the new believer, or the person that's an atheist, and all of those people, right? You know, there's over 10,000 people every week gathered for worship. There's a lot of issues going on, and you're the Navy SEAL of our church. You're going first to take the beach, and so if Satan's gotten you, Sarah, how is Jesus gonna deliver us? And so that's what I'm praying through with my message, and that's why worship is so important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's softening our hearts. You think about the Walls Of Jericho march around the city for seven days and worship God. It would, and then on the seventh day, the walls fell down. And so what I would just say is, I think this is something that you need to struggle with your whole life, and when you think you've dealt with it, I would circle back, because it probably has just grown camouflaged. And so God made me ambitious.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I didn't ask for that, it's how He designed me. I think there's ambition to do great things for God, and then there's ambition to be great for myself. And to ever believe, Sarah, that it's all about God, I think would be deceitful, right? And so I have to constantly say, okay, my selfishness and my sinfulness is in this. And then there's just the purity of wanting to offer something that's beautiful for the Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's in there too. So I don't think that we shouldn't strive to be excellent. I, you know, I think there's a lot of pastors out there mailing it in because they're saying it's all God. Well, if it was all God, He wouldn't call us to preach. You know, I'm preaching in such a way to want to persuade people to follow Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think the gospel is a real offer. I think you should lead us in worship like there's a real choice. Like we have a real choice. And there's really only one sin. Everything else is a sub sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's one sin, and that is we worship something else above God. Everything else falls below that. Everything in my life that sin is all a subset of the one main sin, and that is I am worshiping something above God. My sex life, my money life, my ambition, my, you know, my fear, right? All of these things fall under the first commandment, Thou shall have no other gods but by me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And oh, by the way, who is that God that you've rejected, the one that delivered you from slavery in Egypt? So, and for us as Christians, we weren't delivered from Egypt, but we were delivered from sin by Christ. And so, Sarah, I just want to say thank you so much, but I would just say there's a healthy tension between wanting to be the best, because excellence matters. You know, we want to present, when you look at the Old Testament, right, you don't deliver a deformed cow. You don't deliver a deformed lamb before the altar.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Children with deformities, and that's really hard for us in Western culture, children with deformities are not allowed to serve in the priesthood. One of my favorite verses is misshapen testicle, which one is that? It's so funny. You want to memorize a funny verse. Why is that?
Tammy Brown:All of our faces like flat.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right, so you're not allowed to dedicate someone to the Lord who has a misshapen testicle, and someone is not allowed to serve in the house of God with a misshapen testicle. Leviticus twenty-one 18. Leviticus twenty-one 18, and why is that? Because what, if a son, right, has a misshapen testicle, or his testicle is crushed, in the ancient world, what are his abilities to create a child? He's less valuable than the other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you present your best goat. You present your best child. You present your firstborn to the Lord. He gets the best. And so in a culture where the most important thing that was at stake was the next boy that was born, you're like, oh Lord, you can have my one that's, doesn't, his testicles don't work, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because his chances keeping our family name going are slim. God wants our best, and our tendency is to dedicate the deformed goat. Like when we first started sandals, and every church has gone through this, right? We're getting a new couch, and so we're gonna donate our old couch to the church. That is a sin.
Tammy Brown:I was kinda like, here he goes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a sin, and a bunch of well meaning Christians think they're serving God by giving him something they do not want. And that, I'm sorry, you can keep your couch and you're gonna also gonna go home with some words from me, because that is not the Lord. We give God our best. And so Sarah, I'm gonna preach my very best every week, but if it becomes about me, then that's sin. But if it's my best for the Lord, then that's beautiful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's it's this tension. So I wanna say thank you so much
Tammy Brown:for I love that idea of the motive like that. That's really sort of the the thermometer on this for you, Sarah, is is like, what is your motive? Is it to be seen, to be known, to pursue your own career? Yeah. Or is it truly to use the talent and gift that God's given you to steward that well?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And it is a hard thing to be on stage. Let me tell you. But if I thought about it being me every week, I would crumble under the pressure. Like if I stood on stage and I thought, like right now, we just on our last episode celebrated a hundred thousand people watch this on YouTube.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If I thought about that, that would
Tammy Brown:I'm not going to think
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:about Yeah, would really bother me. But if I think about, God, I'm going to speak for your name and for your glory so that thousands may hear, There's peace in that. There's such peace. And so I think that's why a lot of Christian leaders crumble because it's them, it's their name, it's their story, and you know? So great question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love you. I appreciate you. Can't wait to be led and worshiped by you. So
Tammy Brown:Next question. I appreciate because I've I've I've wrestled with this question myself before. Is it alright to support a previously Christian artist, singer, songwriter if their new music is no longer Christ centered? And here's some contacts they get contacts that they gave. Last year, I came back to the Lord and noticed that previously Christian artists that I used to worship Jesus to are releasing secular music now.
Tammy Brown:Also, the artists will openly admit that they walked away from God and are following other beliefs. With that being said, the cancel culture would say, well, since they no longer walk with God, we shouldn't support previous works because they still make a profit. In the forefront of my mind, the worship songs still resonate and glorify Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So the question is, should I support their old stuff? Is that what
Tammy Brown:Yeah. If they used to be Christian, but now they're not, and openly not Christian, like saying, I don't believe in God anymore, is it okay to still support them? Still listen to their old music?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man. So that's a tough one. I think as we engage in all media in its forms, radio, podcasts, music, I have a hard time supporting anything that is anti Jesus, that's attacking Jesus, that's defaming Jesus, that's ridiculing Jesus. However, a lot of my TikTok feed is former Christians who've deconstructed their faith, and I follow them and listen to them, not because I want to give them a follower, but I want to be aware as your pastor of their arguments, of what they're saying, so that I'm in touch with what all kinds of people in our church might be exposed to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I just think that I need to have an awareness of what people are saying who are against what I'm saying is true. Now I don't want to support them. I don't want to, you know. So you see what I'm saying? So I want to be aware, but my faith is at a place where I'm not going to lose my faith because some PhD or former celebrity or current celebrity has deconstructed their faith and is now woke.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't mean that in terms of liberal, but you know, they're like, they're awakened to this new version of this. And I specifically follow a worship leader who is horrible to Christians and to Christian thinking, and mocks what we believe, and makes fun of what we believe. I've even actually thought about having her as a guest on the show. And two reasons. One, want to know what she thinks, but the other reason is I pray for her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I just think, oh God, she says some things that doesn't offend me. It actually breaks my heart for her, and I just think, oh Lord, this person's genuinely lost. Because Hebrews chapter 10 says people that are like that, who were once saved, who have tasted of the Holy Spirit, who then reject it and go their way, the question is, can they be brought back? And my interpretation of the text is probably not. That scares me for her, because I want her to come back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So would I support someone who was a Christian artist? Would I go to their concert and they've changed? Would I buy their new stuff? Absolutely not. Would I listen to their old stuff if it ministered to me?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Probably.
Tammy Brown:That's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say, I I don't know that we ever wanna say cancel culture needs to be any part of our decision making, first of all, or the idea of Can
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:we stop there? So cancel culture is me making a social media post saying, I'm I'm against this person and I want all of you to join me in canceling them.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that's one thing. I think it's another thing for you to discern the holy spirit, and he says, this is not for you anymore.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's something that the Holy Spirit has spoken to you, and I think that that's not cancel culture, that's obedience. If I lead
Tammy Brown:this
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a certain man
Tammy Brown:in obedience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. But if I lead
Tammy Brown:this
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:charge for everyone else to do what God has told me to do, I think that that's that's wrong.
Tammy Brown:Well, and I think in this case, it seems like well, how I'm reading this is that she's feeling like cancel culture's telling her she can't do that even though the previous music still resonates to her and brings her closer to God. But like, she it seems like she's saying can't based on what cancel culture is telling her to do. Oh. And that's what I'm saying is I I don't think cancel culture should be dictating your
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:decisions at I'm a fan of cancel culture on the left or the right. I think both forms are cancer to our society. It's an area where Christians have conformed to the image of this world. We have become, we have immersed ourselves in cancel culture. At first it was something that the left did, but I see it on the right now as well.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think that Jesus is not afraid of any opinion. So when we think about what the scripture says, can you look this verse up for me? But take every idea and make it submit to Christ, I think it's Colossians. Take every thought captive. So when we were kids, we all thought that was like lust.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It has nothing to do with lust. It's every ideology, every thought. Two Corinthians ten:five. Oh, sorry, there we go. Not Colossians, two Corinthians ten:five.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the idea is that we are not afraid of any opinion, any ideology, any philosophy, any ism, right? All the isms, but we look at it because we stand on the truth. The church the place where the manifold wisdom of God is dispensed, and it is truth. And we're not afraid of that, and we don't have to block that out. You know, I think about when Jesus takes the disciples and he says, Who do you say that I am?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You and I have been to the And he says the gates of hell will not prevail against it. He actually takes the disciples to the gates of hell. And if got kids in the car, press pause, listen to this later. So press pause. But at this temple, priests of the worship of Dan, it was this whole tribe, they would have sex with goats.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if you ever, you know that old Greek sex god, he's half goat, half man, he runs around? Pan. Pan, yes. So the Temple Of Pan, thank you very much. The Temple Of Pan is there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that whole idea of half God, half goat, so they would have sex with goats to produce this dude, and they worship Pan. And Jesus takes him there, and he says, who do you say that I am? So right, so what we do as Christian culture is we separate ourselves from all of that, and we say, I've got to protect myself. Jesus takes his disciples into the heart of paganism to the gates of hell, to where priests are having sex with goats, and he says, who do you say that I am? And Peter says, thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Jesus says, you didn't come up with that on your own. My father has told you that. And so, right, and then he says, and I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church. And they're standing on the rock that leads to the gates of hell. Boom.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I know some of are like, I've never heard that. Remember when I wrote an article on this for LifeWay magazine, it got kicked, or LifeWay Publishing, it got kicked back like three times. It had to go to their editor in chief of all theological review, and they're like, Yeah, Matt's right. I was like, I told you so. Because we had been there, and I'd been there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, right, so there's this idea that I need to divorce myself from everything that might argue against Christ, or put itself against Christ, but Jesus took his disciples right there. So like, right, I think we need to protect our kids from things, absolutely, but we need to slowly, like Jesus did, expose them to ideas so that when they go to college the first time they hear a professor say, that's all made up in a myth, they don't lose their faith because we've never taught, we never talked to them about anything. So I know, man, this question went way
Tammy Brown:out Yeah, it's so good though.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's what I would say is I think that we need to be aware that it's okay for people to have opinions that are contrary to us because Jesus did that with his disciples.
Tammy Brown:Well, and the idea she says in here, people like would to say, if you support someone who's was a Christian and isn't now, I I just can't help but think of how many other areas we do that. The food we buy, the entertainment, the places we go. There's so many things we're supporting. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I just don't know that that's the issue.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. You know? And when I think of cancel culture, I just what I think of is I mean, think about the cancel culture that that the cancel culture mobs that we've seen Sure. Even five years ago that now it's like, oh, it's okay if we like that again. Like, you're seeing that come full circle where it's like, oh, it's okay to be about this again or not hate this person again.
Tammy Brown:I mean, it's just so crazy. So I just always think discernment, time with God, scripture has to be the guide. It cannot be cancel culture. If you're feeling convicted about it, then don't support it anymore.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And what I would say is so much of being Christian on social media is not about being Christian at all, it's virtue signaling. So I make this statement, and therefore I'm good. And I can tell every one of our listeners, there are Christians in the Inland Empire that talk a big game. But when we go to raise money for San Bernardino community, we go to raise money for these actual things that they talk about and send virtue signals, they don't show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They don't show. And, you know, and so you just gotta understand that what you see online is just not true. Yeah. And people that are doing that, back to Sarah's question, what they really want is they want to be praised by you, which Jesus says- They're
Tammy Brown:looking for platform.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is a real problem. So, so much of that, like we feel good because we've said something online, you know, and in our culture, right, the last five years, like silence is violence, and I saw one in Chicago. I was just in Chicago last week, and I'd never seen it before, but it was like, passivity is, have you guys heard it? Passivity is, I can't remember, it rhymes, but I can't remember it. But it's this whole idea, if you're not constantly agreeing with the narrative online to the left or to the right, or with your group, then somehow you're evil.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so like we all scramble to, and it's just like, okay. You know, I just have seen how fake a lot of that is, and it's just, we end up following people who got really loud mouths, but they don't actually do anything. Or they're really good at marketing, And that's how you get a following on social media. It's not because you have integrity, it's because you're really good at marketing, and you've figured out a niche, and you've been blessed. It doesn't mean you're Christian at all.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:So Or you're doing what you're saying to I mean, that's that's a whole another topic. But
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:Okay. Let's go to this next question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Great question. I got fired up.
Tammy Brown:Thank you. I mean, I it's a good conversation though.
Scott Schutte:It's We
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:gotta give shout out though to our team. Came up with pan.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. So Good job, Tyler. Good job. Okay. This final question for this episode is from Michelle in Yucaipa here in California.
Tammy Brown:It says, found out about little Jesus I love this question. These are all over our office and it's making me crazy. I don't know. Okay. It says, I found about out about all these little Jesus figurines that are about two inches tall and people leave in various places.
Tammy Brown:I don't believe that those who distribute the little Jesus figurines worship them. But I think we are not to create any image of God according to Exodus 24 through six. Does that apply to the little Jesus figurines? I hope so. These things
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So actually, one of my good friends gave me one of these, and she knows who she is. So I didn't know what it was, but she put it in my hand on Sunday at church, and I just was like, I didn't know what to do with it. So you know, and again, I don't want, I think it's cute. I wish I would have come up with the idea, we would have paid for our church buildings.
Tammy Brown:That's so Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Christians, like we love so again, how have we conformed to the image of this world? Americans are consumers. Mhmm. We buy crap. That's just what we do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, right, simple enough So we all wanna buy crap, so to be more like Jesus, we buy Christian crap. So that makes you Christian, right?
Tammy Brown:I'm This is getting so real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not buying Satan's crap, I'm buying the Lord Jesus' crap. And, you know, and I get it. I mean, we wanna support things that are Christian, and there are some clothing companies that I'm just like, okay, they've gone, you know, they've gone so evil, I just, I can't wear that. And now we live in a day and age where I think you can be more, there's a whole lot more options with branding than when you and I were kids, you know? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When we were kids, you had to buy what the store had. Now you can, you know, have some dude in India hand stitch your outfit. So what I would say is, I don't understand the motive, but could God use that? Sure, absolutely. If you gave it to somebody and said, hey, I just want this to be a reminder that Jesus died for you and He loves for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Could God use that? Sure, God uses all kinds of things, but should we jump on the latest bandwagons? Remember the WWJD bracelets, right? And and ultimately, when something becomes so popular, it becomes a joke. So that's that's what happens
Tammy Brown:kind of question seems like it's leaning towards, like, that it's meant to be the actual image of God. Right. Is that anti the scripture?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No. So in context Now like,
Tammy Brown:do we know Jesus? Because these little guys write in Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know. So in context of Exodus chapter 20, there is to be no image of God specifically in the Ark of the Covenant, right? The only thing that's in there is the commandments, and a couple other things. Think Aaron's staff, and what am I forgetting? There's three things in there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Aaron's staff, the 10 commandments, and there's one other thing that's in there. I think it's in Hebrews. You wanna look it up? They'll look it up. In the temple, there's to be not in hope I
Tammy Brown:before they look it up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But you know, specifically, the idea over and over again is that God is the image is he's invisible. He's the invisible God. What is it? It's a jar of manna from Yeah. A jar of manna.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There we go. Thank you. So and if you don't know what manna is, it's the bread that God supernaturally manifested on the ground every morning for the Israelites to gather, so that they didn't starve to death when they were in the desert. So those three things are in there, and I think we only know that those three things are in there from? Hebrews nine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Hebrews nine. You know, so those are the three things that are in there, but we just have to be so careful. So here's the thing is, is if you're praying to that little thing.
Tammy Brown:The Jesus figurine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Jesus smurf, right? And no one's old enough to remember what smurfs are. So if you think that's Jesus, and you're praying to that thing, then yes, it's a violation of the first commandment. Or which one is the, thou shall not make any graven image? I think it's the second commandment of the 10 commandments.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, are we praying to it? Are we looking to it? You know, but a lot of Christians do the same thing with a cross. Like they'll have the cross in their hand, or they'll have Catholics have the rosary. There's all kinds of things, you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't want to be anti all of that. And so this was a huge debate in like the fourth century, and they're called icons. Evangelicals called them idols, but the early church decided that it was okay to have imagery in the church to focus our attention while we're praying. That was the issue. Now, if you're not Catholic or Orthodox, you're gonna disagree and say that's an idol, or that's idol worship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the whole idea of saints, praying to the saints, came out of this idea that I'm going think about this person who did well, and that's going to inspire me to do well, and I think the evangelical tradition is better. We don't, I think we can honor those people and appreciate them, but we can go straight to Jesus. And I think that that's so important to just do that. So I think if you're praying to that, or if you think there's power in that, that's a problem for us as Christians. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But the early church has paintings of Jesus, pictures of Jesus. Know? So so it's a tough thing. Go ahead. Ask him for
Tammy Brown:a friend. Yeah. Friend might be me, but is it a sin if you put little Jesus figurines in the trash? Are you throwing away God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. Yeah. You throw them away.
Tammy Brown:Okay. Good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So Yeah. Had one in my truck.
Tammy Brown:This asking back for friend. Had one
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:in my truck because my friend gave it to me, and I wasn't sure what to do with it. Right? Because you kinda you're like, am I throwing Jesus in the trash? No. It that's the problem.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you think that's Jesus, then that's a problem.
Tammy Brown:Well, when I'm walking around our Sandals office throwing him away, I have felt a little guilt, but also I'm like, who is putting these everywhere? It's making me crazy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A very well meaning Christian, I'm sure. Yes. So so, you know, and
Tammy Brown:get Everyone loves but me, but I'm mama here. I'm the mama bear, and I want the house clean.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, and yeah. So I mean, this is just one of those things that I think you can get really excited on either way. And so my friend Mark Driscoll, you know, he's the first one to really articulate this language, and I think it's really important. There are closed hand issues, and there are open hand issues. So closed hand issues are the things that we hold to and we're willing to die for.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're called convictions, and you should have very few of those. Those are the things that you'll die for. That's the hill that you'll die on. Little figurines of Jesus would be in my open hand. So what I would say is, yeah, I'm not into it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's weird. I don't get it. But if that helps you in your walk with Jesus, or that helps you evangelize, or share Christ's love, right, at the end of the day, if it saves one person, I mean, you know, I think
Tammy Brown:Or if it's a comfort.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Or a reminder that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. He's always walking. Jesus is with you. You know, I I I think that's fine. But is it a direct violation for me of the 10 commandments?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would say no, because I don't think anybody thinks that's the real Jesus. That's my take on it. So Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:Okay. Well, this is a great a great question. Speaking of little tiny two inch figurine of Jesus, what about touchdown Jesus? That's in our our studio for the last ten years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. If you don't know
Tammy Brown:Does everyone know Touchdown Jesus?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Just Touchdown Jesus.
Tammy Brown:Meet Touchdown Jesus, everyone.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So this was given to me when I was in Israel by a sculptor in the West Bank, a Palestinian, who is a Christian, and he sculpted this of Jesus, and it's him victorious and risen from the dead, and it has, you know, breaking the curse of Adam on his chest, and he made this for me. And so I've joked about it, you know, this is touchdown Jesus. Do I think this is Jesus? No. Matter of fact, in this question, and if you guys didn't remind me, was completely have forgotten about him.
Tammy Brown:Can you imagine if we put those everywhere too? Yeah. Three feet tall Touchdown Jesus' everywhere. That
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that's why I say, I can't I can't believe I didn't even think of it, and he's right behind me. And I used to joke in the early days of the debrief, Jesus says it's good. And so we call him Touchdown Jesus, because if you watch Notre Dame games, there's a Jesus in the end zone, and he's called Touchdown Jesus. And so even at like the school that I'm attending, so it's an evangelical Protestant school, it's called Biola, they have a, what do you call it, a graduate program school called Talbot, but they have a, what, 80 foot Jesus painted on the side of the wall? But nobody I don't think anybody thinks that's him, so that's where I would say creatively, I think that that's fine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, it is offensive, you know, culturally when he looks more white to people who are African American or people of a darker hue. So we gotta be careful like that. You know, like the Mormon Jesus, he's a surfer with the blonde hair. He looks like you, my New Zealand friend. So, you know, that can be offensive to people because Jesus is, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's the God of all races and all ethnicities. So we gotta be careful with that. But this was a gift to me and it was presented
Tammy Brown:Now he's part of us, he's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:behind me Yeah, he's part of us, and so for a lot of people, you had no idea he's behind me every single week, but that was a gift to me and that thing was like $2,500. So and he's carved out of olive tree wood in the West Bank. So I mean
Tammy Brown:And we're we're getting ready to move our location for the debrief for the studio. And when the team was asking me, we're like, we got it's gotta have touchdown. Yeah. Touchdown. He's he's part of the team now.
Tammy Brown:He's part of the team. Well, these are such good questions. Thank you. And I just can't help but think to the person that's listening right now is, I know you have a question. You have some question about something that you're wrestling with in your life spiritually or relationally.
Tammy Brown:Something about that you've read in the bible that quite doesn't make sense to you. You're wondering the context. Like, this is what we wanna talk about. So you have a question. I know you do.
Tammy Brown:So take a few minutes when you're done driving or working or taking care of kids or school or whatever you're doing. Take a few minutes and write that question into sandalschurch.com/thedebrief. And we'll get to those questions because I can tell you that Matt spends so much time technically on his day off to do the work for you, to do the research for you, and to bring the best that he can to be able to address those questions. So I know you have a question in your heart, send it into us and we'll get to it next time on this show. Until then, see you later.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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