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The Path Uncut is a podcast for bold leaders, forward-thinkers, and changemakers who are shaping the future of their industries. Hosted by Gregory Ng, this show takes you behind the scenes with trailblazers who are redefining leadership, innovation, and impact. Each episode dives into the experiences, methodologies, and challenges of today’s most inspiring visionaries—uncovering the strategies and mindsets that drive meaningful change.
Transcript
Pilot w Don T_mixdown
00:00:07 - Donald Thompson
Every year I was learning something new and growing. So the way he treated me, the way he invested in me, the way he looked out for me, he didn't lower standard. He was a hardcore dude to work for back in those days. Like it. But. But I knew he cared about more than just the bottom line of the business. He cared about me as a leader and emerging leader. And that created retention in terms of what we.
00:00:37 - Greg Ng
Welcome to the Path Uncut. I'm Greg Ng, and this is the show where we spotlight bold leaders and forward thinkers trailblazers who are creating meaningful change in their organizations. Each episode, we dive deep into the experiences, methodologies, and impact of some of today's most inspiring change makers. It's a chance to explore their stories, learn from their successes and challenges, and gain valuable insights to help you drive change in your own world. Today. I'm thrilled to welcome Donald Thompson to the show. Donald is the CEO of Walk west and co founder of the Diversity movement. He's a serial entrepreneur, executive coach, and expert in leadership and diversity, equity and inclusion. Donald has dedicated his career to empowering leaders, creating inclusive work environments, and transforming organizations to thrive in a rapidly changing world. In our conversation, we'll explore Donald's incredible journey, his innovative approaches to leadership, and how he helps organizations embrace meaningful change. So if you're ready to learn from one of the most dynamic leaders in business today, let's get started. Donald, it's so great to have you here, my very first guest on this podcast. I really appreciate you being here. Let's get one thing out of the way first, Donald. That's the way you go. I see people calling you dt. I.
00:02:10 - Donald Thompson
It's a. It's an interesting question, Donald. Don. DT as long as you say it with a smile and I don't owe you money, I love it. Like, I'm totally good to go.
00:02:17 - Greg Ng
All right, well, Donald, we'll start with that. Let's first start with your story. So your CV is longer than most. You obviously have won a lot of awards. You've done a lot of great things. I want our listeners, our viewers, to understand a little bit more about those things. But more importantly, I want to really understand what drove you to those things. So let's start with as far back as you want to go and what made you the person that you are right now.
00:02:44 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, that's. It makes me smile because it makes me think about all the folks that sewed into my life to give me the opportunity to dream really big. And when we think about our careers and our lives, it's really difficult to out live your dream capacity, right. With what you can see and believe that you can achieve. And so my parents were born and raised in a small town in Louisiana, Bogalusa, Louisiana, a small paper mill town. And that's where I was born. I didn't grow up there, but that's where I was born and would go back during the summers and Christmas and different things. And my grandfather was a Baptist minister, football coach, different things. And one of the things I do remember him putting on me was, we've all worked and sacrificed and you're going to be the first millionaire in our family. And this was eight years old.
00:03:33 - Greg Ng
Amazing.
00:03:34 - Donald Thompson
And I remember hearing it and I remember like kind of, you know, brushing it off and different things.
00:03:39 - Greg Ng
But.
00:03:39 - Donald Thompson
But as I started to grow and working through sports and school and different things, one of the things that always drove me was not the money, but the choices that financial stability and then success gives you those choices to give where you want to give those choices to invest in different things that you want those choices to work with people that you believe not in the mission from a financial standpoint only, but in the way they treat and grow people. And so I always wanted to develop those choices. And so my sales career, when I talked to folks, started in fifth grade. And many people share this story. Selling candy in school, right? And I had a Jolly Rancher sales business in elementary school and it was so successful I almost got suspended several times.
00:04:27 - Greg Ng
Fantastic. That's when you know you're doing something.
00:04:29 - Donald Thompson
Yes, when you know you're doing something. I had one or two little employees, I had candy stashed all over the different lockers at different parts of the the facility. And I remember going into the principal's office for the second or third time. He said, we're going have to call your parents on this one. I said, okay, I get it. And he said, do you understand that what you're doing is wrong? I said, I don't. I said, there's vending machines in the cafeteria, there's vending machines in the staff lounge, and you all can sell candy and make money from it, but I can't. So no, I don't understand. And he was like, well, we're going to have to suspend you whether you understand or not, right? And I say that story to say I've always wanted to make money, be an entrepreneur. I never saw myself in a traditional way of existing, but I was also willing to do the work and risk failing to be able to do so. And so those are some of the foundational things that kind of helped pursue me. The thing that changed as I grew and went from college into the workforce is my first big job in corporate America. I was employee number seven at a small software startup here in Raleigh, North Carolina, called iCubed. And we sold technology into heavy manufacturing. So companies like Bose, companies like Lockheed Martin, companies like Boeing were clients of ours because we helped them manage all of the different computer aided design data assets that they had on a global basis. We would move them from systems to system and without getting to all that. But I understood that technology, and this was 25 years ago, was always going to be an industry that was growing. Right. And that was the bet that I made right when I went into that job. And what Grant Willard saw in me, I had no technology background, no engineering background, didn't finish college. Cause I was chasing some other entrepreneurial dreams maybe we'll get to. But Grant said, if you're willing to work, I'm willing to teach you. And nobody had said that on any interview I went to. And he said, I'm willing to teach you not just to be a sales professional, but how to run your own business one day. And so I ended up. And this. This is a critical component in my life. I had three different job offers, and grants was the lowest base salary of all the three. And 30 years ago, 10,000, $15,000 difference is a huge amount of money.
00:06:52 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:06:52 - Donald Thompson
When you got a young family, you're not doing amazing. Right. Like, you're just trying to get by. Paycheck to paycheck is a real thing. But I chose money as secondary. I chose mentorship. Excuse me, as secondary to money. And it was one of the best decisions.
00:07:08 - Greg Ng
Did you know that? Right. So obviously, when you're getting an offer and you're getting other offers and you're weighing the pros and cons, you know that. Now, mentorship is important. Was that at the forefront of your mind when you were making that decision?
00:07:26 - Donald Thompson
A little bit. And here's how I'll describe it. Son of a football coach, played football through high school. Signed a scholarship to play football. He's at Carolina University. My dad had been a wildly successful college football coach. I knew the value of taking minimal talent and maximizing it through great coaching and advice and mentorship. I knew that mattered. And so when Grant described the way that he would work with me, it sounded different because everyone else was just gonna give me a cubicle and at that time, a call list and a call sheet. Yeah, sure, right. Cause it was dialing for dollars back then. Right. That was the hustle. Printed, printed. That's exactly right. Like that's exactly right. And he was the only one talking about teaching me, growing me, training me and helping me chase a dream. Yeah, great. And so that decision was easy then. And when I look back, I'm scared of if I would have chose different because that one decision in working with Grant and getting that education allowed me to stay in the technology space for a while where I was able to do some cool things and make a little bit of money and help some other folks make some money.
00:08:32 - Greg Ng
Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the interesting things about that story. Thank you for sharing that is. Is I wonder how many other candidates over the course of his career that he gave that same offer to where people turned it down. And what I find really interesting as the idea of work, the idea of partnership. And I like to view whenever we add a teammate, you work with someone, whether it's a partner or a colleague or a direct report or your boss. Right. Or board member, it's relationship. Right. That's what you're building.
00:09:10 - Donald Thompson
Leadership is a relationship.
00:09:11 - Greg Ng
And so I guess the question that I would have is how then do organizations promote that type of hiring? Many, many people hire just for skill or they hire for just that, you know, that sweet spot of yeah, they have that skill and they are within our budget and whatever, but maybe aren't willing or capable or empowered to do any of that additional harder work.
00:09:41 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, I think, you know, I like to talk about three things. Is the way that leaders think and make decisions, right. Is something going to make me money, save me money or reduce my risk. And so now when we look at organizational change in terms of how you hire and how you work with people, retention is a huge issue on the radar of most business leaders because we know the investment in time, energy, in the effect of our morale within our organization when top people, quality people decide to go in a different direction. So we're all impacted by that. So we can understand that from a value proposition retention. We also understand the value of long term employees in terms of growing and scaling the business in terms of how your clients are treated in terms of innovation, all those things. So when you talk about organizational change or managing in that way that Grant did on its face with executives, people don't seem to get it. When you link it to the impact of that change behavior, to the business value drivers that they do get and understand, they typically get on board. And one of the things that I found As I coach and talk to many executives is I simply ask a question before I start giving advice or anything. How would you like your business life to be easier? Not your goals change, but how would you like your business life to be easier? And a lot of times people would say, well, I want to break down silos within my organization. Right. I want to have people that think outside the box. Right. All the things. Right. That folks say. And then once they lay that foundation, we then can talk about some of the things that employees do stay in businesses for, which is career path.
00:11:15 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:11:16 - Donald Thompson
If you think about any size business when you talk to employees, certainly people want to be paid well, all the different things. But career path does so much to folks in terms of career navigation because it says the organization and their managers believe in them.
00:11:29 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:11:30 - Donald Thompson
If you have a career path, if you have a mentor, if you have a sponsorship process in the business, if people are giving you stretch assignments, if people are taking one thing Grant did, I remember Fred Hutchinson was, is a, is a longtime tech lawyer in town and extremely successful. And Grant said, what are you doing for lunch? I said, no, I don't have any lunch plans. He said, why don't you come with me? I'm going to meet with our, our IP attorney. I said, okay, what do I need to do that for? Like, that's not in my comp plan or whatever, but okay, you know, free lunch. You know, I'm learning this thing. So anyway, we go to lunch with Fred and I get to know Fred and after lunch he said, do you know why I did that? Do I know why I brought you? I said, no. He said, when you own your own firm, one day when you run this business, I'm going to start teaching you the back end infrastructure things that you need to be successful.
00:12:21 - Greg Ng
What a mentor.
00:12:23 - Donald Thompson
So now watch this. Here's the superpower to that, that Grant. This is like, I owe him so much. He's a great friend. We still have lunch at least once a month. When I started to succeed in selling, my phone started to ring because if you can sell, you can always. You're not going to go hungry.
00:12:41 - Greg Ng
Right?
00:12:42 - Donald Thompson
Right. But I was reticent to leave working with Grant for an extra 10, 15, $20,000 because every year I was learning something new and growing.
00:12:53 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:12:54 - Donald Thompson
So the way he treated me, the way he invested in me, the way he looked out for me, he didn't. Lower standard. He was a hardcore dude to work for back in those days. Like it. But. But I knew he cared about more than just the Bottom line of the business, he cared about me as a leader and emerging leader, and that created retention in terms of what we were doing. And so those are some of the ways when I'm talking to leaders about organizational change and why you should invest in your folks. Another thing that leaders will say a lot of times is, well, I don't want to over invest in folks and then they leave. Right.
00:13:28 - Greg Ng
Like, hear that all the time.
00:13:29 - Donald Thompson
Hear it all the time. Right. And I was like, all right. And I'm a pretty direct individual. So it's like, all right, do you want me to accept that excuse or do you want to learn why you should? Right, right. Because, like, we can do it, do it either way. And I said, really, what you're saying is you don't want people to grow outside of how it builds value for you. But if a high performer leaves and you helped them win, that is going to be reflected in your employee team. And the next person up is going to want that same opportunity. You'll be able to use that as a part of how you recruit. And so one of the things people will ask is like, tool, don't you know you succeeded in a lot of different areas? Right. Because whether it's my technology businesses or my marketing firms or the coaching segment or what we're doing at dei, I said, well, it's pretty simple. I don't know a lot of things, but I know it takes great people to succeed in anything. So I focus on finding amazing people who are experts in the area I want to go into. I don't try to be the expert. I try to find amazing people to go on that journey. And the big thing. And when we created the diversity movement a few years ago, we were talking about the DEI Avengers. And so I recruited a team of folks that were in the space of organizational change and building more equitable work environments and all the things, but we're doing it more solo. And I said, what if we all got together and changed the world?
00:14:48 - Greg Ng
Super team. Yeah.
00:14:50 - Donald Thompson
And you create a vision big enough within your organization that people can see themselves winning within the dream that you have.
00:14:58 - Greg Ng
You know, I say this often. Every business is a people business. Absolutely. You know, there are so many organizations that may say that, but they don't actually behave in those ways. But let me ask you a couple of questions about that story, because I know people are going to be cynical. Okay, so let me attack two questions, and you tell me which one you want to tackle first. I'm going to ask you to actually tackle both of them, and that is this. The first is if someone is within an organization that the owner, the operator, the CEO, the person that they are reporting to does not feel that sense of duty or duty at one end of the spectrum, the other end of the spectrum of just resolve and understanding of the value of mentoring in those ways, of leading in those ways, how does one who is within that organization react to that? The second question, like I said, I'll see which one you want to tackle first. The second question is how does that then scale? Because at some point you could have someone like a grant who does this, teaches that to you, preaches it to you, understands that, but then that works when you're 100 people. How does that work at 10,000 people?
00:16:25 - Donald Thompson
Yeah. So both amazing questions. So I'll tackle the first question first. In terms of what do you do when you don't have that right infrastructure as an organization? You don't have that right mentor? Because I think that's a big, big question. I've been very fortunate, but there have been periods in my career where I didn't have that person to go to. And so I've operated with both. So here's my thinking and here's what I did. Right. And so we'll all judge together if it's something that you all can implement. But it's simple, easy and high impact is the way I like to teach folks. Most calls don't need to be as long as they are. Most meetings are longer than they are. I recognize that early in my career. So when I was selling to an executive at a company, when I was working with a partner, I would ask this very simple question. We have a 30 minute meeting. If we handle the things on the agenda in 20 minutes, could I ask you a few questions about how you became successful? I never had someone tell me no to that.
00:17:22 - Greg Ng
People like to talk about themselves.
00:17:23 - Donald Thompson
People like to talk about themselves. So then I would make that 30 minutes, 20 minutes for the core reason we got together. And then I would have five to 10 minutes at the end with that leader and I would literally ask them some of the things that help them be successful, Some of the things that they read if they knew me pretty well, Right. If I had been working with them for a long time. Listen, from observing me, from working with me, what are some of the blind spots I need to think about as I'm growing my career?
00:17:52 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:17:52 - Donald Thompson
And what I did was I created mentorship moments with people even though I didn't have a particular mentor in that moment of Time that was working with me every week or every month. And so two things occurred. Number one, people love to talk about themselves. But number two, I got a lot of great insight.
00:18:11 - Greg Ng
Hmm. Sure.
00:18:13 - Donald Thompson
And then that person viewed me differently because they hadn't been asked something like that before with somebody that really wanted to listen and learn. And not every time, but let's just say 10 to 15% of the time that person would finish their comments and say, don, if you ever need a longer cup of coffee, love to share with you more.
00:18:34 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:18:35 - Donald Thompson
And so it created an environment where I was pulling from people, I was interacting and learning as much as I could. So that's one thing that I did. The second thing, in a more traditional way, in terms of the mentoring, is most people don't actually ask.
00:18:49 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:18:50 - Donald Thompson
So let's talk like real talk. Right. Most people expect that mentorship, great management leadership is all going to be provided per the infrastructure of the great company they're supposed to work for that how they're treated is going to be this finished product. When most people and leaders and companies are literally trying to figure it out right off strategic planning, all the things. Right. But everybody's really just trying to figure it out.
00:19:13 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:19:14 - Donald Thompson
So most people don't slow down with their leader or their leadership or people that can help and support them in their organization and ask this very simple question. Right. What are some of the things that I can do that impact you as my manager, as my leader, that it will help me grow in my career, but also help and support you?
00:19:31 - Greg Ng
Yeah. It's that second part, though, that a lot of employees, a lot of people just naturally don't think about. Right.
00:19:39 - Donald Thompson
Correct.
00:19:40 - Greg Ng
Because they're in it for themselves. Right. I mean, we're talking real talk.
00:19:43 - Donald Thompson
That's right.
00:19:44 - Greg Ng
In some cases, they're worried to speak up or they don't feel empowered. The culture doesn't support them speaking up. Or when they speak up, it's purely me, me, me.
00:19:53 - Donald Thompson
That psychological. You're describing that psychological safety, which is one of the things we're focused on a lot. Our company Diversity Movement was recently acquired by a firm called Workplace options, and they're $130 million global, 21 countries. We have over 80 million lives under our care in terms of employee assistance, programming, consulting, all about, well, being at work, at scale. Right. And one of the things that we found is that leaders that create environments of psychological safety where people can speak up, where people can push back on ideas, have higher rates of productivity, higher rates of retention, higher rates of growing their Bottom line, in terms of business, when you don't have that as an employee, it doesn't mean it's not there. So let me give you an example. If there's we're in a conference area right now and there's a refrigerator and in the room that we're in, there wasn't water. So if I just assume because there wasn't water in the room that there wasn't a way for me to access the water, then I'd just be thirsty. But it so happens before we started the taping, I asked one of the team members on the earfluence team. I said, listen, would it be okay if I got some water? Blah, blah, blah, XYZ 30 seconds later there was water. But if I didn't ask the question, then I would still be thirsty. So at some point you have to take personal responsibility to figuring out how to get what you want in the environment that you're in.
00:21:22 - Greg Ng
Yes. Let me push back a little bit on that.
00:21:25 - Donald Thompson
I'm into it.
00:21:26 - Greg Ng
I get that. I feel a tremendous amount of security as CEO asking whatever I want. Yeah, yeah, right. But let's say someone is a one year out of school junior person who walks into a conference room and is asked to present to the boss's boss's boss. It's the only time they've ever interacted with them. They don't even know if they know their name and they're thirsty. That's what I would ask.
00:21:55 - Donald Thompson
That's a great, great counterpoint and someone that's great pushback. The way that I am now is the reason I became a CEO.
00:22:05 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:22:06 - Donald Thompson
Which means I took those risks earlier in my career. It's a risk tolerance, a risk taking perspective. Let's move from the water to sharing our ideas. Because that was part of the example that you gave. Sharing your ideas in a room where you might be the most junior person. Sharing ideas in a room where you might be the only one of one, might be the only woman, might be the only African. All of those things create anxiety, stress. Right. An environment where you're not sure where you stand or fit in.
00:22:41 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:22:42 - Donald Thompson
Right. So one of the, I was talking with a senior VP for people operations for an emerging tech company that, that came on as an executive coaching client and she shared some of those same sentiments. Even though her title is large, she still felt in this all male environment, a couple hundred folks in the company and you know, very few women leaders. And I said a lot of times you have to use third party credibility to get the Things done that you want. So, for example, if people are dominating the room, this, that and the other, and you have something to share. Right. One, raising your hand is still a good, powerful technique.
00:23:22 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:23:23 - Donald Thompson
Because it just slows everybody's mental model.
00:23:25 - Greg Ng
We're raising your hand or slamming your fist down on the table.
00:23:28 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, I don't prefer to slam the.
00:23:29 - Greg Ng
Fist, but that'll accomplish that too.
00:23:31 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, yeah, but the. Raise the hand and then one of the things that will occur is, is people will stop and look and at whatever voice you have. You don't have to say it in a certain way. At the next opening, I have something I'd like to add. And then you just, you just. And then you just let that sit. At the next opening, I'd like to add something. Carl, please finish your statement. John, Jeff, Livia, whoever's talking. At the next moment, I'd love an opportunity to have something I'd like to add. And then what happens typically, and I've seen this so many times, is people like, oh my gosh, Joanne, thank you. Yes, please, the floor is yours. Because a lot of times people are dominating conversation or people aren't included. Not because someone's against you, it's because they like to hear the sound of their voice.
00:24:19 - Greg Ng
Like they're not.
00:24:21 - Donald Thompson
They're not mad at you.
00:24:22 - Greg Ng
That's right.
00:24:22 - Donald Thompson
They're not trying to ISO you out. In most cases. They just are in love with their ideas.
00:24:27 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:24:28 - Donald Thompson
So you have to remind them that in order for us to have a productive ideation session, in order for us to have a strategic planning session, a problem solving session, the best idea needs to win. In order the best idea wins, we've gotta have true collaboration. But that simple statement is something that I recommend that people make and let that sit. And usually that works a lot.
00:24:47 - Greg Ng
And I think us as leaders also need to be very mindful of proactively supporting that. Let me give you an example. You know you have Google Hangouts, right. And you have the raise hand function.
00:24:59 - Donald Thompson
Yep.
00:25:00 - Greg Ng
And that is exactly that. That story. And I think that a lot of organizations now, at least from our experience of all seniority, feel more empowered to hit that hands up button. Because it is. Everyone understands the process. You understand.
00:25:16 - Donald Thompson
That's right.
00:25:17 - Greg Ng
That it's not going to mute someone. It's just going to say, hey, remember me? I got something to say.
00:25:22 - Donald Thompson
That's right.
00:25:23 - Greg Ng
But here's a perfect example. I had have a colleague who every time I would raise my hand, even if I was third in the queue, they would interrupt and go directly to.
00:25:34 - Donald Thompson
Me by virtue of your title and.
00:25:37 - Greg Ng
Role, I'm the boss. Right?
00:25:38 - Donald Thompson
Yeah.
00:25:39 - Greg Ng
And I believe that it's important for us leaders to not only just to not just say, not take the mic, but to actually not publicly. And this is what I did privately is I said, hey, I appreciate that you value what I'm going to contribute. And I also would like you to consider, to stick to the order of the cue. I was simply participating, not as boss, but as another contributor to this discussion. Do not give me preferential treatment here. And to me, I think that's an important step because it's very easy for leaders. I fall into this trap all the time to just say, yeah, well I got something to say. So this is why I got, this is what got me here. And so that's why when you bring up, I truly believe your risk taking Persona, I have that same risk taking Persona. This is how I got to where I got cool. And that's right. And there always has to be an and. Right.
00:26:40 - Donald Thompson
I think your point is so well founded. Another thing that I share with folks that are on their rise in their careers and this is a cheat code early in my career, whoever was facilitating the meeting I was going to, I would ask them before the meeting if there was anything I could help them in advance to make sure the meeting went well. Did they need another set of eyes to review the agenda? Right. Did you want your presentation looked at? And what happens is when you get to the person that's facilitating or called the meeting, you have now a different level of influence on the meeting. Because before the zoom even opens, before the face to face strategic off site, you've already had a look at the discussion points and were able to start to shape it. Right. The other thing that junior folks can do or emerging folks is if you have nice pre reads from things you've read and learned that can add to the value of the meeting.
00:27:36 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:27:36 - Donald Thompson
So now all of a sudden I'm in a meeting and the email comes out and. And Don was gracious enough to share with us something he read in Harvard Business Review about how to create a less friction between sales and marketing and organizations, if that was the topic of the meeting. So now my stature in the meeting, independent of my title grew because I was participating in trying to help it have a better outcome for all.
00:28:04 - Greg Ng
Yeah. Love it.
00:28:05 - Donald Thompson
And so that's another cheat code that I that I share with with folks.
00:28:08 - Greg Ng
Yeah. So let's shift, if you don't mind, to about engagement. Okay. Just last month I posted on LinkedIn that off of another article that the policies around return to office is a single most stressful challenge I have not been able to solve for our own business. And I'll explain why.
00:28:31 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, please.
00:28:33 - Greg Ng
I firmly believe in, especially in our business, in allowing our employees to our teammates to work wherever, whenever. I'm not a clock watcher. I'm not someone who mistrusts my team. And I also see the benefits of working from home and me as well. Literally the biggest. And I draw energy from people and I like to have a real specific shift in my own mindset when I get in my car and I drive to my office and then by extension the nice re entry point of driving home before I enter back in my home. So two things can be true at the same time.
00:29:28 - Donald Thompson
That's right.
00:29:29 - Greg Ng
I believe in flexibility and I draw a lot of energy when people are around. And I see a lot of organizations you probably read as well where organizations are just making the decision to say no, you know what? Everyone come back in. And I believe that that is purely a sign of not trusting your employees with a little dose of I'm paying rent or I did a big build out and I need to justify it to investors. I'm interested to hear. I'm just stop right there.
00:29:58 - Donald Thompson
No, because it is a huge like Covid changed the way the world works. And when you have a transformational change like that, people develop a new set of habits, life and work expectations. And one of those is choice. And anytime you try to take choice away from people, you're going to get friction for that.
00:30:24 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:30:24 - Donald Thompson
Right. So here's. You know, fortunately I've talked to hundreds of leaders on this because it is a part of the work that we're doing. I believe very firmly that it is hard to mentor and grow and build team remote doesn't mean it can't be done. It's harder. I can't really recall, but it's a lot of all of the cups of coffee, the five minute conversations, the different things.
00:30:52 - Greg Ng
I call them micro interactions.
00:30:54 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, the micro interactions. A great phrase. Right. But if we're innovative, we can find a way to achieve both. Maybe not optimally, but in a way that moves us forward. For me, I think two days in the office a week and giving flexibility the same two days. And I think that's really important. If collaboration is your goal versus compliance. Compliance is your goal. You need to be in the office two days a week. Right. But if collaboration is your goal, should be the same day and people should Get a benefit for being at work.
00:31:26 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:31:26 - Donald Thompson
If they're coming into the office to sit in a cubicle by themselves, then they could do that same thing at home.
00:31:32 - Greg Ng
Absolutely.
00:31:33 - Donald Thompson
So you have to create an environment where there is a business value to folks getting together is number one. The second thing that I think is super important is you have to explain to people why you're doing what you're doing. And you mentioned a dose of the real estate impact. I think there's a big dose of that. I think there's a big dose of the fiscal expense. And I went through this. We had an office in Centennial Campus. Great facility. All the good things during COVID in our marketing business walk west. And I remember going into that business during COVID and knowing what I was paying every month. And it make literally making me sick to my stomach every month, it can.
00:32:08 - Greg Ng
Mean another two employees.
00:32:10 - Donald Thompson
Literally is another two employees.
00:32:11 - Greg Ng
Right, right.
00:32:12 - Donald Thompson
And so then if I upscale that right to someone that's got 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 employees, that's a real thing.
00:32:21 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:32:21 - Donald Thompson
The second thing that organizations are doing is they're making their office in office policies as a way to create workforce realignment without having to lay people off. Right. Because they know there'll be a certain amount of attrition there. So I do agree there's some ulterior, dangerous. People are always trying to manipulate the framework of how you win.
00:32:45 - Greg Ng
Of course.
00:32:46 - Donald Thompson
Right. And the final thing I'll say on that, and give the mic back, is that conversations with people about tricky gray area things is the best way to get as close to the bullseye as possible.
00:32:58 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:32:58 - Donald Thompson
You can't do that as a leader on everything. You can't have focus groups on everything. That's why there are decision makers in organizations. But on something in terms of that work life integration, that in office, out of office, that ability to really have people share their feelings, their views, taking surveys on those things and really understanding your workforce will allow people to opt in or out of the culture you're creating. And that's not a bad thing. And then I'm always as an employee or team members that I've talked to, hey, Don, I really don't love the two days. Like, I would rather one day or not at all. But I sure appreciate the dialogue we had about it. I sure appreciate the fact that, like, we were included in how we came to this. Ultimately, I know that you've got to make some decisions, and I might not love everything, but we at least tried to be as collaborative as possible and in certain instances, that's kind of the best you can do on gray area things. You're not going to be able to be 100% because people are going to have different rhyme and reasons why and how they want to work.
00:33:55 - Greg Ng
Yeah, it is a absolute gray area and one in which we all. It's tough stuff sitting here, survived, but I think it's really dangerous for organizations to say, great, cool, pandemic's over, back, reset. And one of the things that you brought up, which I think a lot of leaders don't consider is true. People don't like when things are taken away. And whether they agree with it or not, the idea of, if I were to say to you, hey, you know what? Different times, different ways of business, I'm giving you a $10,000 raise. And then I say, the times are back to where it was four years ago, I'm taking that $10,000 away, people would be like, wow, don't take away my salary. What are you talking about? Right. But they never really think, at least what you hear in the media, they never really think about the flexibility of working from home as being one of those things. Right?
00:34:50 - Donald Thompson
Correct.
00:34:51 - Greg Ng
We as an organization gave that flexibility because it was the right thing to do then, and I'm glad we did. And I actually don't want it to go back because it's a different world. Right. I mean, obviously our actual physical space is different, the way in which we communicate is different, but also the flexibility of who we can hire and where we can hire and where they can take vacation and are they really work? Are they working remote? And are they able to gain greater flexibility for what's working, for their lives and their family? All great. But what I think a lot of leaders forget about is that by saying, come back to the office, you're literally like taking away a raise that you gave someone three years ago, four years ago. And I roll my eyes. I totally. I wish you could see me scrolling through LinkedIn, which I do every morning. I really time box it. And between two games of chess, by the way, I'm a big Chess.com person. I play two games of chess every morning. But between those games, I check my email and I scroll LinkedIn. So if you see likes and hearts and reshares, you know, between, you know, 6:30 and 7:00am Every morning, it's because of that. But I roll my eyes so, so hard when I see people come to market and they say, well, it's because of collaboration. I agree. Collaboration, but I don't agree that that is the main factor.
00:36:17 - Donald Thompson
Yeah. I don't think most things that are complex are multi layered. And I think people are smart. And so as leaders, sometimes whether people are going to like it or not, truthful. Right. Matters. Because your respect level goes up even if they disagree.
00:36:31 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:36:32 - Donald Thompson
Right. And you know, another example that I'll use really quickly is Walk west, our marketing firm. We were one day a week and we're now looking at some space options so that we can go to two days a week.
00:36:43 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:36:44 - Donald Thompson
Because what we saw is great productivity, all the things. But there's some coaching and some collaboration elements that are missing to help us go to the next level. And so in my role as board chair, I'm like, but this is how we did it. We're gonna do the actual change in probably February. But we alerted the team at the beginning of Q4 because we wanted folks to have enough time if they have childcare things, if they just want to need to get their head around it, all the different things. Because the other thing that is tough for team members is sudden change.
00:37:20 - Greg Ng
Yeah. Whiplash.
00:37:22 - Donald Thompson
Whiplash. Right. And so you have to give people time to process things that are going to be different. And that's a really important kind of. Kind of leadership learning.
00:37:33 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:37:33 - Donald Thompson
Right. Because early in my career I was whiplash.
00:37:36 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:37:37 - Donald Thompson
Right. Like I'd read something over the weekend. All right. This is our new strategy. Like I just was a little shiny object. Yeah. You know, idea of the minute. And what I've learned over time is that is as disruptive as almost anything you can do as a leader. And so we have tried to roll that out, giving a full quarter. It's almost two quarters before we're going to do it, but it's something we're going to do and the team got behind it and understood it and. And people are either good with it or they're good enough with it. Which in that case, like, you can't.
00:38:09 - Greg Ng
That's all you can ask for.
00:38:09 - Donald Thompson
That's gotta be the win.
00:38:10 - Greg Ng
You know, we, as an organization, I always remind our leaders the number one true north for us is transparency and empathy. It's gotta be both. It can't be in these cases or in these cases, you can't be afraid to say the things that are true. But you're worried about how it's gonna land. Because if they're already true, they need to land at some point. And for that exact reason, I.
00:38:39 - Donald Thompson
That's awesome.
00:38:39 - Greg Ng
Hopefully my team agrees with this and sees this. You know, I make mistakes. I'LL be the first to say, I make mistakes. I'm trying to make the best decisions for what's in front of me. And the only way to do that is to be transparent and empathetic to people who are not the same as me. And by that I mean, you know, we're big proponents of the disc personality profile. I have 0s. It's not even 1%, is literally 0% stability. Okay. And why? Why? Because every day can be different for me, and that draws energy. And I have to be aware that that is not the same for others. And isn't that beautiful, the diversity of thought and the way people are built to learn from those mistakes? But if you're not careful, you're a bull in the China shop, right?
00:39:29 - Donald Thompson
It is. It's bull in a China shop. And it is the. You're creating barriers to productivity that you don't even know you're doing.
00:39:39 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:39:39 - Donald Thompson
And that's one of the things that is tough as a leader is. And I think about the new year, and I love the new year because it just gives a chance to flip the script. Right. It's just such a large mental change. Right. It's, you know, we're in 2025. I get another chance to have a great year. Right. It's a good thing. And one of the things that I think is important as we think about from our team members and being better leaders, is what is our personal responsibility as leaders? To bring the best out in them. That's something that stays with me pretty regular. And so I do try to improve not just the communication, but the explanation in the communication of what we're doing, why it matters, and what their role is in that change, that opportunity. And that is a leadership maturity.
00:40:27 - Greg Ng
Yeah, sure.
00:40:27 - Donald Thompson
Right. Because we all have this thing of, well, you can read my mind, you know, my intent is good, you know. No, we don't. We need to hear that perspective. We need to hear how you. You thought about it. And I've gotten a lot further, faster by slowing down to be a better communicator internally.
00:40:44 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:40:44 - Donald Thompson
Doesn't mean I've got it nailed. So anybody that's hearing the sound of my voice, I'm a work in progress. But I'm better than I was 10 years ago, nine years ago, five years ago in last week.
00:40:53 - Greg Ng
You have a bigger data set.
00:40:54 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, Right.
00:40:55 - Greg Ng
I mean, a lot of times you hear people, they don't even have to be leaders. You hear people that say, yeah, I don't make mistakes. I go with my gut. I Make my own luck, whatever. My intuition is gold. Guess what? They just don't realize it yet, right? Everyone makes mistakes, but how you own those mistakes are really important. The reason why I brought up the return to office is that when you started in the business, around the same time I started in the business, the Internet wasn't the Internet, right? Mobile phones were not mobile phones. I get that. Technology, great. I mean, what a time to be alive right now, right? But policies have to change and evolve as well. And so when we're talking about real organizational transformation, when we're talking about getting everyone's head facing the same direction, alignment. One of my sons is a rower. So I use a lot of rowing analogies and it's a great analogy because look, if one rower is not in sync, guess what, you lose the race, right? Rhythm is important, but alignment is also important. And so I guess the question I would have for you is policies change, right? And they have to change, I like to say, set our policies in plaster because they need to have some foundation, they have to have some stabilizing structure, but they cannot be in concrete.
00:42:20 - Donald Thompson
That's right.
00:42:20 - Greg Ng
Because once they're in concrete, people are like, well, I don't know, it's just the way it's always been done, like whatever, right? How though can organizations stay aligned, true to their core values, Pivoting, evolving with the times, not making jumps to reaction based on just like what is like the hot topic of the week and then changing the entire ship and then changing it maybe too far or changing it, not enough. How does an organization stay grounded in making the decisions that are right now, but scaling it and launching it in a way that actually sticks, Right. And that actually sees the benefit of that, of that policy.
00:43:07 - Donald Thompson
I won't name drop, but I do some coaching work with a global retailer and if I said the name, folks would know it pretty well. And I work with their America's leadership team and just really proud of the work we've done there. But one of the things that is important is when you have a global organization, when you have a large business or small business, internal communication is really a powerful skill set. Because left to folks own devices and imagination, people start with the negative intent of any change. And so that means that when you are chasing a new line of business, when you are making a new strategic hire, when an employee that doesn't meet the values of the business is let go from the organization, any change you have to over communicate in order for your narrative to stick. And I think a lot of Times we spend so much money on brand external, we under invest on brand internal and the ability to continue that communication path. And I use my, I'll use a marriage analogy, right. And my wife and I are different. Obviously that's a good thing in many ways. But I need to constantly or consistently not constantly. I need to consistently reaffirm how I feel about my wife Jackie. Consistently, that is just to have a successful relationship, marriage, partnership, all the things that we do have to consistently reaffirm that. I need that affirmation less frequently, but I need it of course. Right. And because I want to have a successful, enduring, long term, fun, exciting, all the things relationship, I'm investing in that communication growth. Now when I look inside a business and all the different people, personalities, backgrounds, educations, fears and concerns, it seems like a lot of work to have to try to do that for all the different folks. Yeah, but that doesn't mean don't try. It doesn't mean don't look at the email that you send to your team and use the same tools and techniques to manage how many opens you have. As if you're sending an email and a marketing campaign to try to sell somebody something.
00:45:36 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:45:37 - Donald Thompson
To create that same kind of focus, intentionality and making sure that your thoughts about the team, the environment, what people need to do to get valued and grow. Giving recognition in a specific way. Here's an internal common thing. We'll talk to leaders like you need to give more recognition. Leaders like yeah, great, right. And they check it off and move. I give recognition spot bonus. Right?
00:45:59 - Greg Ng
Right.
00:46:00 - Donald Thompson
When what is really important is specific recognition. So that individual is proud of what they did to grow your newsletter from 0 to 25,000 subscribers, but also the rest of the organization know what types of things garner recognition. Promotion. So you're recognizing and you're teaching and training in the same conversation, but that is the depth of internal communication. So to your question specifically, how do organizations think about that ebb and flow of change and how to manage that one? You cannot manage it, but you can lead it.
00:46:35 - Greg Ng
Okay.
00:46:36 - Donald Thompson
And by leading it, you have to be that voice of your values, your mission, your objectives. And you have to be not only consistent, but you have to say it so much that your team can read your mind in advance because they've heard it so many times of what you as a leader value what we're going to do for our clients and how much we care and how we demonstrate that care for our team. Just like we know that it takes seven to 17 marketing touches before somebody buys your product, it's going to take seven to 17 touches before people understand the change you're making internally.
00:47:09 - Greg Ng
So when someone, though, says, I'm not trying to just deliberately poke holes, but I'm a little cynical about that because there's so many organizations that will say that.
00:47:21 - Donald Thompson
Well, before you get to that, I'm going to interrupt just for a minute. Most people are cynical about things they haven't tried.
00:47:27 - Greg Ng
Fair. That's fair.
00:47:31 - Donald Thompson
I talk to executives all the time. I said, you're giving me pushback on something you haven't tried. You're giving me pushback on something you've not seen work. You're giving me pushback on something you don't see.
00:47:38 - Greg Ng
I think it's the second. I think it's the second is why I want to get to this.
00:47:42 - Donald Thompson
That was just, you know.
00:47:43 - Greg Ng
No, no, no, it's true. No, no. I think I'm cynical because I haven't seen it done well. And so I always hear leaders say, yeah, makes total sense. Definitely. I understand the steps, but what I rarely see is that they actually follow through. So why do you think that is?
00:48:05 - Donald Thompson
We are creatures of habit. So let's just talk people. Not leaders. Emerging leaders. We're just. We're all creatures of habit. And new habits are difficult.
00:48:14 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:48:15 - Donald Thompson
And most of us shy away from things that are new and difficult. So what we have to do to get leaders to try new approaches to communication. And I'll use this global retailer because the CEO is hard charging as they come. I was hired to be a part of the consulting team because of my personality.
00:48:34 - Greg Ng
Got it.
00:48:35 - Donald Thompson
To deal with the strength of this leader.
00:48:36 - Greg Ng
Got it.
00:48:37 - Donald Thompson
Of all. Like, they interviewed coaches and consultants all over the country. And I said, why'd y'all pick me? Like, I'm glad that you did. But, like, they're like, oh, yeah, we. We kind of read up on you. And you. We think. We don't think you'll be in.
00:48:49 - Greg Ng
You're just what we need.
00:48:50 - Donald Thompson
You're just what we need. Right. And so. But here's the answer to the question. But we all respond to positive feedback. So let me use a leadership behavior where the leader will come into the meeting and start to talk and make statements. And we all know that if a leader comes in the room and says how they want to see a project go, the rest of the meeting is an echo chamber of how to make that idea that the leader had work. There's very little pushback after that. Right. So what we want to teach leaders to change is Ask more questions than you make statements.
00:49:23 - Greg Ng
Okay.
00:49:24 - Donald Thompson
The more questions you ask, the more you pull ideas from your team. Does a couple of things. Number one, if I ask you a question and sincerely want to know what you think I am sharing with you, that I value you, number one. Number two, I'm giving the rest of the room license to share their views. And third, I'm getting smarter because my team is usually closer to the problem than I am or the opportunity. And so now I play my wife. I'm like, I'm 1 out of 10 with Jackie and Scrabble. Like, this is my numbers. Like, I literally like percentage than I have. She's a content creator, wordsmith. It's just bad. And I still want to take this medicine. Right. But one of the things in the game of Scrabble is triple word score. And so what I just described to you about executive behavior in meetings and asking more questions than making statements is triple word score. You're giving people recognition that I value you by asking them a question in front of their peers. Two, you're given green light for broader collaboration for other people to do it. And three, you're learning because your organization and your team members are usually closer to the challenge or problem or opportunity. And then by the time you get done with that meeting and have facilitated a really true dialogue, you can now make the best decision for the business.
00:50:45 - Greg Ng
Yep.
00:50:45 - Donald Thompson
And so those are some of the ways that I help people with why they should change because I give them the value ads in specific ways they can understand quickly.
00:50:57 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:50:58 - Donald Thompson
And then I simply say, what is it going to hurt to try?
00:51:02 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:51:02 - Donald Thompson
And then let's talk about it in a couple weeks and see how it's going.
00:51:04 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:51:05 - Donald Thompson
And that's, and that's how I have that conversation. Because most people are not skeptical to be mean spirited.
00:51:14 - Greg Ng
Right.
00:51:14 - Donald Thompson
They're skeptical because they don't understand how what you said can be implemented and they don't believe they'll see the results from the change. If you believe you're going to see the results from the change, then doing the hard thing is easier. But if you have a tough thing to change and it's outside of the core of the way you work and different things, why should I go through all this effort. Right. If things aren't going to actually change? So business leaders understand the word pilots. Right. If you're going to buy a million dollars worth of software, then you buy $50,000 worth of software and you test it in one small group before you do that. Right. People understand the Concept of a trial membership to a club. So I just remind the executives that anything that we're talking about is to test and adjust.
00:52:02 - Greg Ng
Set in plaster.
00:52:04 - Donald Thompson
Set in plaster.
00:52:04 - Greg Ng
Right, right. Like an mvp. It's the whole idea of an mvp.
00:52:07 - Donald Thompson
That's exactly right.
00:52:08 - Greg Ng
So, I mean, we see all the time. I love that you. What you said about the not believing is where we see a lot of headwinds. When we work with organizations, we typically get hired by the person, the catalyst, the person who is dreaming big, behaving in ways where exceeding goals are exceeded, and running up against the reality that they have maxed their ability to do what they need to do. Because what's holding them back is all the other departments that they have to play with. Right? And almost always to a T. When they ask what should they do? And we give them the answer, we know it's the answer. The response is, you know, I just don't believe I can move mountains there. I know I can move mountains here because it's my mountain. Right. What do you believe is the right way? Like, do you have to go all the way to the top down? Is there a way to start it here and land and expand it?
00:53:17 - Donald Thompson
That's such a good question. And let me rephrase the question before I attempt to give a perspective on it. Right. It's really about how do you navigate, right. The internal politics and silos in the organization to get things done right? And it's difficult, but when you learn how to do it right, you really elevate your career opportunities. And one of the things that I had to learn early in my career and this helped being in sales, when I would have an initial conversation with a potential prospect, that's the time where we're getting to know each other and seeing at a high level. Right. Can they have a business value from anything I'm selling? Right. Like, that's the first. Like that's just the first basic thing we're trying to figure out. The answer is yes. Even before I start asking things around budget and different things, I asked the question of how are things decided in your organization? Why is a business professional a sales professional? Do I want to be doing so WS proposals, research, if I don't even know how decisions are made in the organization? So I asked my contact that, right? And then we have a conversation about the silos and the. The personalities and the favoritism and the different things. And I just let them talk. And then I say, listen, just. Just pretend for a minute you're you. You Want what I'm selling. Let's just pretend for a minute what would be our next step together? Right. To start navigating this and that person thoughtfully will. They'll, they'll sit back and think, we should have Carl and Susie in the next meeting we're having. Right?
00:54:49 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:54:50 - Donald Thompson
And I'll be like, okay, well, why? And it was like, well, Carl, he's two or three levels below me, but he's working on the special projects team for the CEO.
00:54:59 - Greg Ng
Great signal.
00:55:00 - Donald Thompson
Right, Susie? Right. Runs the budget process. Right. And even though they're not senior folks, they know what's baked in, what's movable, what's not. And if we have a conversation with myself, Susie and Carl, we'll know if we've got something we can move forward or not, at least at a high level. And we're like, oh, man, great. Well, how would I, like, pull that meeting together? Right? No, no, I'll do that. This seems so what I'm.
00:55:25 - Greg Ng
You're high fiving yourself when you hear that statement. Right?
00:55:28 - Donald Thompson
Absolutely right.
00:55:29 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:55:29 - Donald Thompson
And all I'm trying to do with my champion in the account that I'm starting with is not waste either of our time on a sales process which doesn't have the chance for a positive outcome. And I'm reminding that person because if you just say, who's the decision maker? Well, I'll make that decision. It's in my budget. That's an ego question. People are always gonna lie.
00:55:51 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:55:51 - Donald Thompson
This is like, nobody's gonna say, I don't have any power, I can't spend any money. Nobody says that. Everybody is always like, no, no, it rests with me. But if you ask, how are things done in the organization? What are some of the political landmines I need to think about?
00:56:07 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
00:56:07 - Donald Thompson
Now all of a sudden you can get that second meeting with the right people, you start mapping the organization. And that works for an external person, provider consultant that's trying to sell into the organization. Also works when you're trying to make organizational change bottom up throughout the organization.
00:56:24 - Greg Ng
I'd like to actually talk about goals.
00:56:25 - Donald Thompson
Yeah, sure.
00:56:26 - Greg Ng
Goal alignment in particular. I think it's really easy. I think every organization knows. Although again, let me just say my perspective on it is that I think that a lot of managers feel that reviews, goals, individual goals, team goals are just busy work, annoying, frustrating. Do you see that?
00:56:52 - Donald Thompson
I'm kind of in that camp in some ways.
00:56:54 - Greg Ng
Yeah. But we all agree that goals need to happen. Organizations need to set sights on things that they need to achieve. But I believe that a lot of times by the time it trickles all the way down, that it is just a. Yeah. You say you want a raise or you say you want a promotion. Well, cool. Do these five things right and you just kind of whip them out of thin air and it really doesn't roll up to real change in the business. So let's just for a minute, just table that. Let's just say, yeah, cool, we agree with that. And there are organizations that are in the position they're in because they set the right goals and they align their teams. What do you believe are the differences between organizations that are again, rowing in the same direction and those who aren't? What is that from your perspective? What are the things holding organizations back from that type of alignment?
00:57:55 - Donald Thompson
If I have to, let's just use an analogy. If I have to walk a mile, the amount of energy I'm going to have to exert if I walk a mile, if it is 70 degrees so it's not too cold or too hot, it's nice out, got some nice shoes on, dressed for exercise. Walking a mile is not that big a deal.
00:58:15 - Greg Ng
Sure.
00:58:16 - Donald Thompson
Right. Most, most people can walk a mile independent of how long it takes you. Most people can get it done, get it done, Right. So now let's use that same, let's walk a mile and let's say I've got a small little pebble in my shoe, which, which eliminates the quality of the shoe. Right. So it doesn't matter how much I spent on the shoe, if I have a little pebble in the shoe, I'm not going to be as able to walk as far, as fast as comfortably. Let's think about the weather changing. Now. It's raining a little bit, It's a little bit cold. Now let's say I've got a 50 pound backpack on, 30 pound backpack. These factors have decreased my ability to get from point A to B quickly, efficiently. It's less fun. Right. The pebble in my shoe is not going to ruin my life. But for that mile, there is no fun in that. There's pain with every step. And so what happens in organizations is you can win through brute force. I did that as a CEO of my first software company. I was not an amazing leader, but I worked hard and I worked a.
00:59:21 - Greg Ng
Lot and got it done.
00:59:21 - Donald Thompson
And got it done. And then I had a business coach that said, don, how successful would you be if you had a stronger interpersonal dynamic with more people on your team? How strong would you be if your retention Numbers were better. And so I started to now think about the same mile I had walked in building, growing and exiting a software company. And I became very concerned that my energy was being wasted. Even though I accomplished that one goal, how much more could I have done? And so when I think about companies that are good at not just setting goals, but aligning those goals with roles and responsibilities with each of the team members in the organization, so there is a connective tissue to the goals and objectives in the organization while they're having more fun.
01:00:12 - Greg Ng
Sure.
01:00:13 - Donald Thompson
More retention. People that are dealing with your clients are creating more happy clients, partners and customers.
01:00:21 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
01:00:22 - Donald Thompson
So the difference between organizations that have that fluidity that that aligned frequency with their team members is now you're building something for the long term. You're building something that can be dominant and enduring for a long time. And people are having more fun while meeting financial goals and constraints. We're not talking about lowering standards, we're not talking about Kumbaya. We're talking about people being well while they're working.
01:00:49 - Greg Ng
But when you're going through the transformation, when you're seeing someone that in an organization that knows maybe it's an organization that must change to stay in business, you're not going to be able to maintain that same level. So how do you. You don't have the luxury to say, you know what, like it or don't like it. You need to progress with your existing team.
01:01:17 - Donald Thompson
How this is a great. I do and I appreciate the question. People can do hard things with people that they believe in and goals that they're a part of setting. So that means if you've got to go through layoffs, if you've got to pivot your business, and I've had some successes and LinkedIn and my CV like you talked about and all the beautiful things, it's because I don't share all my failures on LinkedIn.
01:01:46 - Greg Ng
Is that what social media is for?
01:01:47 - Donald Thompson
You know, social media is about how awesome I am. Right. Like, but some of the highest performing content are the dumb things I've done in my career.
01:01:54 - Greg Ng
Of course.
01:01:54 - Donald Thompson
Right. But put that aside. When you have to go through tough things with people, but they know that on the other side is a team win, group win, individual win.
01:02:06 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
01:02:07 - Donald Thompson
People will embrace the hard thing. People are resilient. People don't lack emotional toughness. By and large. What they react to and overreact to is being pushed to do something more extra different by someone they don't think believes in them and is for them.
01:02:25 - Greg Ng
And that is A big, big challenge. Because a lot. Let's use an organization that has a marketing org and a it org. Okay. Almost all organizations we see often the CTO's goal and the CMO school and the CDO Chief Digital Officer's goal are not aligned. And in every case they're hitting their own goals and doing great. Right. But real transformation can't happen until all three of them are in lockstep.
01:03:01 - Donald Thompson
Yep.
01:03:02 - Greg Ng
I'm going to ask the question that I hope I don't understand the answer to, but I think I do. Is there any way to do that without going to the boss of all three of them?
01:03:11 - Donald Thompson
No. And, and it's like it, it's, it sucks to say out loud.
01:03:17 - Greg Ng
You just can't right it.
01:03:18 - Donald Thompson
It. There's just too many examples of people being able. And, and here's the thing. In one organization I worked with, I was talking to their senior VP of their global HR operations and I said, I need to ask you a question. Working with the one group, I said, how does the well being organizational health xyz. Because if the board, the CEO I'm working for, if the board doesn't care about these things, then I'm just doing checkbox work.
01:03:53 - Greg Ng
Oh yeah.
01:03:53 - Donald Thompson
Because CEOs are only concerned with the people that can hire them, fire them, give them their bonus. Like this is the. Like that's the reality of it. And the HR leader gave me very clear good advice and I gave them four or five different things I had seen. The board cares about this and this and the other three they do not. And so we were able to focus with that organization on the two things that they did care about, develop momentum. The next year we got buy in on the third and we're still waiting on the fourth and fifth. But to answer your question, power and hierarchy matter and we cannot eliminate that. Right. And so that means that when you have three executives that are fighting over the same piece of pie, fighting over the same level of recognition, fighting over budgets, couple things occur. Sometimes the CEOs and leaders do that thinking they're trying to get the best out of people. They kind of pit people against each other. The leader has to decide, and that's corporate like oh yeah, the CEO has to decide if unity, cohesion and silo breaking really matters.
01:05:08 - Greg Ng
Right.
01:05:09 - Donald Thompson
And the conversations that I have with business leaders, and I'm thinking of three or four out of the hundreds of companies I've worked with three or four, I mean, legit, high octane, high personality, like, I mean, and that's where I'm pulling some of these conversations from in order to get them to change, which a couple of them we've gotten them to change in certain degrees. It was by aligning the people opportunities with them looking better to their board.
01:05:42 - Greg Ng
Sure.
01:05:43 - Donald Thompson
So I had to get into all right, how do you compensate your leaders? Is there anything in there around collaboration? No. Can we change that? They couldn't change their structure, but in three of the examples I'm thinking in my mind they added bonuses to collaboration, group activity, team goals, different things. So they didn't change their whole structure because of my great. But they changed enough to where they got the attention of a handful of leaders. And the second thing is the CEO's behavior. And here's across the board if you're having a problem with the CTO and you're the CMO and the leader only talks to each of you individually, they're hearing about the same problems through a different lens every time and no solution. I like the construct of small 15 to 20 minute huddles and the leader pulling everybody together. Looks like we're not moving in the great direction. Like to hear from both of you and I want to leave this meeting with an action plan to get it better.
01:06:40 - Greg Ng
And the fun fact with that is if that leader is pulling each person individually, whether they think they're saying it the same way, they're not. And whether the recipient thinks they're interpreting it the same way, they're not. And so even with a huddle, I could say the same words to a group of people and they're all going to take slightly different perspectives, right?
01:07:02 - Donald Thompson
Yep.
01:07:02 - Greg Ng
They're going to place themselves within that interpretation. Right. So even at a great perfect scenario, it's still not pure.
01:07:11 - Donald Thompson
And it is tough for me to say because I believe in collaboration and all the different things, but some of these things we're talking about are the leaders responsibility to determine what they will reward and what they will accept. And I'll give an example. When I was in the software business, heavy and this was great. It wasn't great at the moment, this was great. So I had one of my senior folks that was hitting their numbers and just they were a star performer but they were pretty aggressive with their teammates in their language and the way they approach some things and xyz and so I had. Our HR leader was telling me of this latest flare up and I was like we're going to need to do something about that. And she said, and I will never forget this, she said this is your responsibility. And you're at fault. And I said, one, excuse me, two, I didn't say it. Three, I didn't do it. And then here's what she said. And the reason I loved this is because at least it meant I created the environment where people could speak truth to me as they got to know me. Here's what she said. She said, you endorse what you tolerate and as long as you're tolerating this behavior, don't. Then this problem sits with you. And I had to eat that, own that. And to this day, I don't like talking about that because it was because as a leader, I don't like things to be my fault. I want to grow, I want to change, I want to get the good, all this stuff right. But when she said that to me, I said, number one, I don't like a word you're saying right now. But number two, thank you. And number three, you're right, took your medicine. Number one, I don't like anything you just told me.
01:09:04 - Greg Ng
Right.
01:09:04 - Donald Thompson
Number two, thank you for sharing it with me. And number three, you are right. Because just because somebody shares something with me, even and it's their truth, I don't have to agree with it. People aren't always right, of course, but she was three for three. And I had to make some change with my relationship, my expectations with that leader. We addressed it, we fixed it. But a lot of times leaders look into the organization and they need to look into the mirror. And I will tell you this other thing after that meeting and those that worked with me years ago will remember that if I went to some little five dime store, maybe it was a big lots or something, and I bought me a little personal mirror and I stuck that thing to the door. And so whenever I was going to go out into the organization and talk to the team or do different things, I looked at that mirror first every single time. So that as I was talking to folks about things that we need to improve, do better, I also in that same conversation asked, what am I missing? What can I do? How can I grow?
01:10:00 - Greg Ng
Great.
01:10:01 - Donald Thompson
And it was one of the, one of the bigger impact conversations from somebody on my team that I'll. That I'll never forget. And I'm trying to do better to this day on taking that responsibility where I need to and grow.
01:10:13 - Greg Ng
I love that story. Thank you for sharing that, Donald. It's great to have you here.
01:10:16 - Donald Thompson
It's been great.
01:10:17 - Greg Ng
I'm gonna leave you with one more question. Yeah. You talked about Jolly Ranchers.
01:10:20 - Donald Thompson
Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:21 - Greg Ng
So you know, I gotta go back and let's close it with this. The first is I'm a big, big pink lemonade Jolly Rancher.
01:10:27 - Donald Thompson
Oh, nice, nice, nice.
01:10:29 - Greg Ng
But I like the sticks. Do you remember the big sticks?
01:10:32 - Donald Thompson
I do.
01:10:32 - Greg Ng
Not the small ones, because this was your first business.
01:10:35 - Donald Thompson
Yeah.
01:10:36 - Greg Ng
I'm curious if you still remember what did the economics look like?
01:10:40 - Donald Thompson
I absolutely do.
01:10:41 - Greg Ng
I thought you would.
01:10:41 - Donald Thompson
No, no, I absolutely do.
01:10:43 - Greg Ng
How much per unit? What were you selling for?
01:10:45 - Donald Thompson
This is how long ago this was. Is. I was buying them when I first started from Woolworths. I was living in Pennsylvania. I was living in Bethel Park.
01:10:53 - Greg Ng
Okay, Right.
01:10:54 - Donald Thompson
And so Woolworths was a. Was a. Like a CVS at the time. And they. A variety store. So you could buy them in a bag. And maybe the bag was like 2 bucks and it had, I don't know, whatever, 20 cents. A. Sure. A piece of candy was. And so then I was selling them initially for 50 cents. This little piece of candy. I was selling them for 50 cents. So I was still making double the money. And then as I started selling more and more, I said, mom, I want to go to the grocery store with you. And in Bethel park, it was A and P, Right. And so I would go to the grocery store with her, because at the grocery store, I could buy Jolly Ranchers by the pound.
01:11:29 - Greg Ng
Buy in bulk.
01:11:30 - Donald Thompson
I could buy them by the pound. And so I just need to make enough money so I could buy inventory and start buying by the pound. So I went into the A and P and I started buying Jolly Ranchers by the pound, pound. And my mom, I would be like, mom, can I get the keys? I want to go run and put something in the car. So while she was shopping, I would go buy my Jolly Ranchers, go pay for them and put them in the car where she wouldn't see how much candy I was buying. And 3 cents is what I remember. And then I was still selling them at this crazy price. And then obviously other people came into the market, of course. Right. Because they saw me making money and they were like, we'll sell you this candy for. For 25 cents. I was like, yeah, I got you, sucker. I went to Dime and I was still making triple the money. Right. And for my good customers, I could go a nickel and still run you out of business. And all you got is Jolly Ranchers. And when you can't sell them, I'll buy them from you. Right. Or whatever. But those were some of the economics entrepreneurial mindset. But making that transition to buying it by the pound and selling them. And I still smile to this day.
01:12:30 - Greg Ng
Do you still eat them?
01:12:31 - Donald Thompson
Not as much, but I. But I do from time to time. And I didn't eat them that much then.
01:12:36 - Greg Ng
Yeah, I just picked a product at.
01:12:38 - Donald Thompson
The market and now I sound like a drug dealer in elementary school. Don't get high on your own supply. But I didn't. I didn't do a lot with the Jolly Ranchers, but it was fun and it set the seed of having my own money, my own choices. And that's really one of the drivers of my story. Not money for more cars, bigger house, big. But, you know, I'll tell this last story about my. My middle daughter, Sierra. And I remember her, she was a junior in high school and we were living in Durham at the time. And she said, dad, do I have a college fund? And she was starting to think about college and applications as I said, no. I said, you don't have a college fund. I don't have a college fund. She said, well, how am I going to pay for college? And I said, well, I said, do you know the times where I'm not able to get to every single game you play in and different things? And she said, yeah. She said, you're trying to make money for the family. And she understood that. I said, well, we've been blessed and fortunate and we've worked hard to where I don't need a college fund. I just have a checkbook. And so everything you need for the next four years of college is sitting in our checking account. And all you have to do is make good grades, stay out of trouble, show up. Right. And you're not going to graduate with any debt. And she said, she just. I remember the biggest. She just hugged me because she was starting to talk to some of her friends that were in a good situation.
01:13:56 - Greg Ng
Yeah.
01:13:57 - Donald Thompson
But some of her friends had no idea how their family were going to be able to send them to school or loans or work. And she understood that. And so she was starting to ask those questions. And for me, when I think about my personal story and money and choices is for those moments.
01:14:14 - Greg Ng
Makes it worth it. Right?
01:14:15 - Donald Thompson
That's what. What makes it worth it. And certainly, you know, have a nice car and all the things like that. But it's not for any of that that moves me. It's for the people in your circle that you're meant to protect and provide for, that you can do it at a level that you desire, whatever that level is for you and your family. So, anyway, thanks for Donovan appreciate it.
01:14:32 - Greg Ng
Thank you for joining.
01:14:33 - Donald Thompson
You're welcome.
01:14:39 - Greg Ng
And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Path Uncut. A huge thank you to Donald Thompson for sharing his incredible journey and insights into leadership, innovation and creating inclusive workplaces. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe, rate and leave a review. It helps other change makers find the show. And if there's someone you'd love to hear from or a topic you'd like us to explore, let us know. I'm Greg Ng. Thanks for tuning in. And remember, the path to meaningful change starts with bold ideas and courageous leadership. See you next time on the Path. Unknown.