#19 - Divorce

What is Age Differently?

This podcast is focused on challenges that are routinely encountered by men aged 50 - 70, but
not often discussed. Although targeted to them, this is also applicable to older / younger men
who are looking for ways to age differently, as well as the women that are involved in their lives.
Stress, relationships, male friendships, diet, mindfulness, aging with vitality and dying are just
some of the many topics that are covered. A rotating series of guest speakers join the podcast
to provide insights and wisdom relating to other relevant topics such as EMF radiation,
emotional intelligence, mindfulness and hair health.

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Unknown
Background music

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Darius
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Age Differently. I'm Darius Naigamwalla, and I'm here with my friend and collaborator Peter Calin. Peter, how are you today?

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Peter
I'm doing great. How are you, Darius?

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Darius
I'm wonderful. It's nice. Peter's up from, Miami today, and he's brought the. It's December when we're recording this. And last week, the temperatures in the 20s. Peter shows up the temperatures in the 60s. That's what.

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Peter
I do. That's just what I do.

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Darius
Bring smiles and sunshine and warmth everywhere he goes. And, we're going to need it for today's conversation. We're going to talk about something that, affects 55% of men over the course of their lifetime, that being divorce and, you know, we don't live our lives with temerity to a new word for those out there. I just learned it means fear.

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Darius
It's a lot better way of saying it. I'm going to lead off with a little bit of, a light hearted observation. And, you know, when I ask you a question, you know why divorces are so expensive?

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Peter
I don't devise. You want to tell me.

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Darius
Because they're worth it. That's an old joke from Willie Nelson. So we're going to be talking about divorce. It's, it all. All kidding aside, it's a very challenging, painful subject. We're going to talk about the decision to divorce when, you know, it's time to walk out the door. The emotional and practical challenges that men face, dealing with your significant other for years to come after, if you have children.

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Darius
And then finally, how to really rediscover yourself and create your life. So before we jump in, we'll talk. I'm divorced. I've been divorced now for over 15 years. Peter, you're also divorced?

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Peter
Yeah, I've been divorced and remarried, but I've been divorced for, 40 years, I would say. Yeah. And, we both had different experiences with it. We did. And before, I, I continue sharing my experience. I just want to comment on, on the introductory, comments you made because, divorce is also very much, a situation that requires, that is a choice of how much damage and chaos is inflicted.

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Peter
So I want to kind of highlight that, let our audience consider that perhaps how much chaos, how much damage, how much emotional, disruption may be something that is more within as men, our control than we give ourselves credit for. Yeah.

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Darius
A couple of thoughts. One, I'll temper that with you can't control what happens. And the chaos, the damage isn't always initiated by the man, but you can choose how you want to respond to that. And the second thing I'll say is that when you choose to divorce, or at least when I did, it was an incredibly, incredibly difficult, painful decision to make.

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Darius
Because in a lot of ways, when you're divorcing, it's like you are losing somebody and there's a lot of grief that comes up with that process. So you have to recognize that those emotions that you're feeling, they're normal. This is a very, very weighty decision that you make. And you can't make it lightly. I can share that.

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Darius
There was a moment in my marriage, in my marriage had been struggling for a while. There was a moment of absolute clarity when, a line was crossed and I knew that's it. This is it's over, and it's time to proceed down that path now. So I would say for anybody who's out there struggling with this one, talk to people.

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Darius
Right. Don't do it. I didn't go into a cocoon and try and figure it all out yourself, because it doesn't work to be aware of what it is you're feeling. Three obviously go to counseling, do all those things to try and put it back together because you love this person at one point in time. And then when you make the decision, recognize this is a very weighty decision that you're making.

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Darius
So reflect on it. Think about it, meditate on an exercise or whatever you need to do until you come to that place deep within you that you know this is the right decision, not only for you, but for everybody else that is involved your significant other kids, the families you got to get to that point, or at least I needed to get to that point where it wasn't just the right decision for me, it was the right decision for everybody.

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Peter
Thanks for sharing all of that, Darius. You and I have had very different experiences with divorce, and so, I interject one viewpoint, you interject a different one. And, both of us are right, and both of us could be wrong, depending on the individual situation. Right. So thanks for sharing that. I'll talk a little bit about my marriage and my divorce.

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Peter
I've been married twice. The angel that I married first time. And and I'll explain why she's an angel. I was 17, 18 at the time, and we had, my, oldest son was, was born three months before, and, I didn't know it then, but I should have known that marriage wasn't really for me and the obligations of responsibilities I wasn't ready for.

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Peter
Top of.

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Darius
That age of 18. Peter, that's a lot of weight to put on your shoulders. I mean, those are broad, good looking shoulders. Well, that's a lot of weight on any 18 year old. Yeah.

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Peter
And so I did try for a number of years, to keep the marriage together, even though it just was very difficult for me, through undergraduate and graduate school. And then at some moment, I just realized I couldn't do it anymore. I was quite blessed. And this may sound obtuse and kind of strange to the audience as they hear this.

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Peter
I've had taken a class in child psychology in my undergraduate coursework. And then in law school, I took a class on family law. And so when it came time to, disintegrate my marriage, to divorce my first wife, my focus wasn't on my ego. It wasn't on myself. But somehow I was directed on whatever we did should be done in the best interests of the children.

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Peter
And my first wife, her name is Ethel. She kind of agreed with it. So we as amicably as could thank you possibly be done in that difficult environment. Separated and then worked for years to just do our best and again, in divorce situations, when it comes to children, when it comes to relationships, you're just doing your best.

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Peter
There's no perfect solution. There's no perfect balance, you know, and things are going to be chaotic, disruptive, emotionally draining and taxing. Like you said, the the range of emotions that you experience, whether you're the initiator or not. It's just it's ridiculous, to be honest with you. And I suffered it. The guilt, the shame. As a father and, but kind of the,

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Peter
The outcome that validates the approach we took. And again, this work for me may not work for others or for you. Is that, Ethel is the godmother of, one of my daughters, my second wife, and she's remained involved and engaged in the family. My sisters consider her sisters today, even though we're not married. So something worked, and I believe the focus on the children can make a huge difference rather than just focusing on me or, you know, focusing on the relationship.

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Peter
Even though the relationship was the initiator. I understand that that's what brought the family and the the, the relationship together into marriage. If you're divorcing, that's not the focus that I believe serves you best.

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Darius
You know, let's talk about divorce. If you're making the decision to divorce, it doesn't happen overnight. It's an extended.

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Peter
Process.

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Darius
It is typically is going to take you 12 to 18 months. You are going to go through, filing. Will you file with the court. You're going to go through mediation, where hopefully you can get to a settlement without having to go to a trial. When you each present your facts to a judge who then decides what needs to be done.

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Darius
And every one of those steps is time consuming, it's expensive. But most importantly, it is. Or it can be emotionally disruptive because the entire process you're sorting through the dissolution of assets, you're sorting through custody, and you're supporting through the finances. And now it's wonderful, Peter, to hear that you're able to have an amicable one. You know, there's a whole community and court system set up and a whole industry with lawyers because you're an anomaly and an anomaly in this situation.

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Peter
I realize that.

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Darius
And most and it takes the other thing I'll say is it takes both parties to approach it with that level of maturity to be able to do so. Yeah. Referring to Ethel as an angel makes a lot of sense for those of our listeners that are in that spot. You know, you guys can move on and listen to another episode for the rest of you that are going through this, or who have been through this and had a different experience than the one that Peter had, that is more in alignment with the the courts and unfortunately, heightened emotions and unproductive conversations.

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Darius
We want to talk through how to potentially engage productively with your ex, how to focus on yourself and how to really rebuild your life. Because if you are making this decision to divorce, you are going to have to rebuild your life. Yeah, so let's talk about Peter. You mentioned this.

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Peter
Earlier is before we do just one other thing I need to mention, because it was the approach I took. There is another way that divorce can happen, and it includes a contract, the separation agreement, that prenup. Well, not a prenup in some states. And state of New York, I believe there's, a separation agreement that the parties can sign.

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Peter
And then after a period of time, just go file a divorce. Yeah.

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Darius
Understood. So let's talk about the emotional impact of divorce and the emotions that can come up. You said about two minutes ago the emotions were ridiculous. And when I look back on my divorce, the emotions ran the gamut. There was a ton of sadness that this is done. There was regret. What could I have done better? There was shame, right?

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Darius
I failed at this marriage that was so important to me. There was anger. There was resentment for some of the behaviors that I was seeing that I never would have expected. And how I dealt with that was I found productive outlets for those emotions to be released. I started taking guitar lessons and, learned to play guitar now.

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Darius
Oh, Eddie Van Halen, but I can play, I started taking martial arts again. I ended up getting a black belt in kung fu, so I wanted to exercise both the creativity as well as get the emotions out of the body. And I found a therapist to talk to as I was going through this, because the whole journey is a whole process.

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Darius
It's so foreign. It is just something that you don't expect, you don't see and you have. You're in a totally different world and it's it's overwhelming. Yeah.

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Peter
Hopefully for our audience, if they experience it, it's just once in their lifetime. But it's still very overwhelming, daunting and, unexpected challenge.

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Darius
It is. And it's interesting because I remember I was at the gym and there was a neighbor that five doors down I said hello to, said hello to him, and he looked at me and he looked away without saying a word. Explain shun to me why? Well, he wouldn't talk to me, so I don't know why. So all I could say to him as I walked by was, hey, walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me.

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Darius
So that's why I go back to the whole foreign unknown situation and why it's so important. Again, talk to I had my therapist, John. I still talk to John. Wonderful guy. Talk to your friend. Reconnect with your friend. Take that emotion that's getting stuck in the body and really said, if you're a runner, you're run. If you're a weightlifter, you lift weights.

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Darius
If you're not physically active, you go for a walk. You do something. If you're a singer, you sing, you do something to release those energies so that they don't get trapped in you. You don't want that chronic stress trapped in you.

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Peter
Energies and emotions. Are you saying ignore the emotion? Or what do you do with the emotional aspect of it?

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Darius
Feel the emotion and release the emotion.

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Peter
And then engage in one of these other activities.

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Darius
To release the emotion, right? So if you're a singer, you sing, right? If you've got all that pent up energy, you find a way to to sit with it. But to healthily release, use it. Yeah, right. Because there's other options you can do. You know this as well. So you can choose to numb, you can choose to distract.

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Darius
You can choose to addict.

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Peter
Well they're all distractions. And I think that's the focus that I'd like to highlight. Which distraction best serves you. And we're talking about, you know, exercise and and and it could be, board games, something that directs your energy in a more positive way as opposed to something which is trying to numb the emotion. We're not talking about numbing the emotion or ignoring the, you.

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Darius
Know, you got to feel that emotion now, because the interesting thing is, once you get through the process of divorce, if you have if you don't have children, you're done. You can separate and choose how you want to be in each other's lives. If you have children, you're going to be in each other's lives. One way or another.

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Darius
Now the frequency will go down after they leave high school because you won't see them as frequent, but you'll still see them at weddings. You'll still see them for grandchild, and they will still be in your life in one way, shape or form. So one of the things that I've always tried to do as I've co-parenting is never to engage or to walk away before things got heated and to never, ever disparage my ex in front of my children.

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Darius
I don't think that's a lot to do. I don't want to put them in the middle of any situation. It's always focus on building that relationship with your kids and doing everything you can to prevent that tension, any hostility, anything from coming through.

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Peter
Again, I, I'd like to highlight this, that for me was such a powerful anchor. If you do things in the best interests of your children, then your own selfish interests can't override. You know, whatever you're feeling, towards your spouse will override. I should say whatever you're feeling towards your ex spouse or towards your relationship.

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Darius
Will be overridden by the kids. Yeah, I get it. And that's why we turn the other cheek. That's why we rise above it. I think it's also important to note from a financial perspective, when you choose to get divorced, it has a major impact on your financial situation. I have a good friend.

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Peter
And yes, it does.

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Darius
This individual is living with their partner unhappily, because they do not want to move out and initiate the financial separation of assets because of the expense as well as the cost moving forward. So that is something when you go back to making that decision, it's a factor that needs to be factored in and then it will need to be factored in moving forward as well, because the standard of living that you may have experienced as a married couple doesn't necessarily continue.

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Darius
No.

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Peter
No. It's like, doubling your expenses. Right.

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Peter
On the same income.

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Darius
Yeah. And a lot of ways. So let's talk about we've been through okay. Divorce can be challenging. It can be rough. And I made the joke earlier tongue in cheek about their expense. So because they're worth it. Let's talk about how you and I got divorced and then embarked on a journey to.

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Peter
Grow.

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Darius
And reiterate and reinvent ourselves to really, really become the the first step or another step towards the people that we are today. So let's talk about the importance of reinventing or finding yourself after the divorce.

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Peter
Well, this goes back to a topic that we reiterated a couple of times, and that are baselines for both of us. And that's just the the persona of constantly wanting to learn, and continuously developing personally and growing personally. And so it doesn't really. And so if this is a baseline, for all endeavors of our lives, let's, let's assume that for a second.

00;20;23;09 - 00;20;40;29
Peter
And that's what we're inviting the audience to take a look at. Then, whether it's divorce or any other aspect of our lives, any other episode in our lives, post divorce, you reinvent yourself. You you you you redefine.

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Darius
How did you reinvent yourself? What did you do coming out of your divorce?

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Peter
Well, the first thing I did was, figure out what I found joy in. And, outside of just relationships and things I did was like, I started doing, triathlons, for instance. Something that would challenge me physically. I obviously dated, and tried to figure out if I were to get married again because I still had my boys, remember, what kind of woman would be a suitable mother to my my two boys and a suitable companion that I would want to live my entire life with.

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Peter
That was years after I had been divorced. I didn't immediately start looking to for a marriage or relationship. And then, just in terms of things that I had not given as much, 100% focus, my work career, my personal development, you know, because remember, before it was diluted with, yeah, caring for my wife and my children and figuring out what they needed prior to or as much as I needed something.

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Peter
And once I was divorced, I realized, well, and I knew this was what the reason why I needed to be divorced. I needed to discover freedom. You know, at 18, you don't really have a sense of yourself and freedom.

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Darius
Well, I'll say, Peter, I mean, I got married when I was 32, and when I got divorced, the first question I had to ask myself is, who am I? Because I had lost myself. And you raised a point about finding things that bring you joy. Like who am I? What do I enjoy, and how do I want to create the next chapter of my life?

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Darius
And for you as triathlons? For me it was martial arts. Right. For you it was yoga and meditation. For me, it was picking up a guitar and putting a band together and starting to explore that side of myself. And yeah, dating is an entirely separate episode, but after you've gotten divorced, you're going to start dating after a period of.

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Peter
Likely like you are.

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Darius
It does for me. I took a I took a period of time off because again, those questions who am I? What do I like? What do I want to do with this next chapter of my life? I needed some time to think through those questions and not be distracted.

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Peter
So you pause before you. When you were dating, I did.

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Darius
I paused, and I knew I was going to start dating because I remember, clear as a bell, I woke up one day and I thought, I'm so happy right now. Yes, this has been challenging, but I've got a path forward. I'm in a really good spot. I like being single and then little hammer in the back of my head said, oh, you're done.

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Darius
You're going to meet somebody now. And sure enough, within a week, because I had gotten to the point where I liked being by myself, I was quite comfortable with the band and martial arts and going to the gym and work career. In the relationship I was building with my son's birth, I pause for me was essential.

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Peter
Would you recommend it for our audience?

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Darius
I would recommend that people do what they need to do to get through it.

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Peter
You knew that was a leading.

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Darius
Question, and if they absolutely if they if they need to get out and they want to start dating earlier, go ahead. If they need that time, that pause, take that time, take that pause to get to know yourself again.

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Peter
We're not we're not, urging or trying to define for you what's best for you. We're just looking at and exploring options. We took and see if there's one little gem that you take away from it.

00;24;47;00 - 00;25;28;18
Darius
One little nugget. That's all we ask. The other thing that I'll talk about is how I reengage with my network, after I got separated. So over time in my marriage, I my relationships with my close network I had allowed to slowly dissipate and disintegrate would be a better word. There were close friends of mine that I hadn't talked to in 15 years, and so for a period of 3 to 5 years, that became an enormous focus in my life.

00;25;28;21 - 00;25;49;00
Darius
Pulling back those relationships, pulling back those key individuals that that I loved and that I had had either fallings out with or just no effort. And I put that back together with, the only word I can use this ferocity, because I really focused on reengaging that network.

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Peter
And in retrospect, how did that benefit you?

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Darius
Retrospect? It was probably one of the smartest things I've ever done in my life, because now I have, a wonderful support network when I'm going through something or when I need a sounding board or when they're going through something. It's a community. And the community stretches all the way from California to Canada down to Florida, and one of the newer members of my network is sitting across from me all the way over to Europe.

00;26;18;08 - 00;26;52;06
Darius
So it's I can't stress enough. And we have a whole podcast on the importance of male relationships. And if you haven't listened to it and you're going through a divorce, please listen to that episode so that you can get some best practices on how to reengage with the people who know who you are, right? Not that surface veneer that you put on on a day to day basis, but the the guy that you grew up in did probably some questionable things that know who you are and that love you and that accept you for that.

00;26;52;06 - 00;26;55;27
Peter
And that's the big one. Except they accept you.

00;26;55;29 - 00;27;16;17
Darius
They accept you. So once you go through the divorce and you're building your new life, Peter, what kind of advice would you have for somebody that is, you know, going through the process almost out of the process based on what you went through?

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Peter
Again, it's it seems my experience is very different from most, so I would just say just from a, a more aware perspective, do what you did, which is, Re anchor yourself.

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Darius
That's an excellent term.

00;27;41;14 - 00;27;45;07
Peter
To what worked for you in the past and see if it will work for you today.

00;27;45;08 - 00;28;11;25
Darius
But think about that, because I never thought about that until you said it. That's what I did when I was lost because I was lost. I re anchored myself physically through martial arts in the gym. I re anchored myself creatively through the the band and through music. I re anchored myself professionally. I focused on my career. I re anchored myself emotionally with my friends and my family.

00;28;11;25 - 00;28;22;12
Darius
Yeah. And I re anchored myself spiritually. I started surfing and anybody who surfs. Carlton, we're talking to you and thank you again for the feedback. It's a spiritual experience. That was exactly it.

00;28;22;14 - 00;28;45;01
Peter
Yeah. Notice how it's at all levels of your being, which is some of our focus or is our intended focus in a lot of these podcasts, if we're not just talking to the head or, or the body or the heart, but the spirit, the soul is also involved. And that is what I hope we impress upon our audience.

00;28;45;03 - 00;28;46;17
Peter
That's the whole of the being.

00;28;46;19 - 00;29;19;08
Darius
That's the whole. So our call to action coming out of this episode, I think we just kind of came up with it. If you are considering it, obviously approach it very cautiously, checking in with your head, your heart and your soul before making any rash decisions. And if you are in the process of going through it, find your anchors and re anchor yourself.

00;29;19;10 - 00;29;20;01
Peter
One more thing.

00;29;20;06 - 00;29;21;03
Darius
Please.

00;29;21;05 - 00;29;53;13
Peter
Yeah I again, I just I think this sometimes helps in those chaotic and disturbing moments of of a divorce, remembering that the children have a priority and it's not it's not just you. And even though it would seem everything the Genesis of it comes from you and the relationship, now you have these innocent beings who are going to suffer this.

00;29;53;15 - 00;29;57;02
Peter
How do you control that damage? A bit? It's, I think, good focus.

00;29;57;02 - 00;30;08;07
Darius
You know how I try and do that, Peter, is I remind myself that at one point in time, I thought I wanted to spend the rest of my life with my ex partner. So there's there's love there, and there always will be love there.

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Peter
I'm glad you mentioned that. Yeah.

00;30;09;14 - 00;30;27;02
Darius
And then number two, I always look at my ex wife as a great teacher. I've learned so much about myself through my relationship with her, and I appreciate that. Yeah. Good. So do you have any words on this one or are or are you going to go directly to a wrap up?

00;30;27;05 - 00;30;30;26
Peter
I don't believe oh yes I do.

00;30;31;02 - 00;30;36;27
Darius
Oh he always has words. All right. Some words from Peter to conclude this episode.

00;30;37;00 - 00;30;54;03
Peter
So let the river flow. As the waters do without a preference. Love. Embraces.

00;30;54;06 - 00;31;15;11
Peter
The life, the living in the garden of hearts. Let no judgment reside. For in love's sanctuary all differences subside.

00;31;15;13 - 00;31;29;14
Darius
Beautiful. Thank you Peter. Thank you everyone. Again feedback questions comments age differently.com. Appreciate you guys listening. And if this was helpful subscribe or forwarded on to somebody else in your network who would benefit.

00;31;29;14 - 00;31;30;16
Darius
Thank you again Peter.

00;31;30;19 - 00;31;32;24
Peter
My pleasure. Always a pleasure.