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Tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode of Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast. Join Francine L. Shaw, the savvy CEO of Savvy Food Safety, and Matthew Regusci, compliance connoisseur and founder of Fostering Compliance, as they serve up the latest in food safety with a side of laughter.
Explore the ins and outs of food systems, responsible food practices, and food safety regulations. Stay informed about food safety awareness and the not-so-occasional food recall. Delve deep into the complexities of the food supply chain with our dynamic duo, who blend expert insights with a pinch of food safety humor. Whether you're knee-deep in the food safety industry or just passionate about what's on your plate, this podcast promises a fresh take on staying safe while eating well.
Expect candid conversations, personal anecdotes, and occasional guest appearances that spice up the discussion. Shaw and Regusci bring their combined decades of experience to the table, making each episode as informative as it is entertaining. From industry trends to must-know food safety news and regulations, they've got your back (and your lunch).
In essence, Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast is not just about imparting information; it's about fostering a culture of food safety. By shedding light on the intricacies of the food supply chain and the latest food safety news, it aims to promote awareness and encourage responsible food practices among consumers and industry professionals alike.
When it comes to food safety, knowledge is power, and a good laugh is the best seasoning. At the heart of every episode is one golden rule: Don't Eat Poop!
Santoshi: [00:00:00] And one thing which I don't feel it's a good practice in India is like when something is wrong, people don't say it out loud and they are asked to not to say, not to talk about anything and they are, they're being given some sort of bribery or gifts or something like just to... Yeah, that happens. That happens a lot in food industry in India.
Intro: Everybody's got to eat, and nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points, from the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine Elshaw and Matt Regusci for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule: don't eat poop Don't Eat Poop
Matt: Hello, hello, Francine.[00:01:00]
Francine: Hi, Matt.
Matt: And we have a special guest today. This is great. This is really fun because Francine and I haven't had very many interviews over the last, I don't know, six months? Been a while, and-
Francine: It's been a while ...
Matt: yeah. Our audience really likes the interviews, so this is perfect, 'cause I'm excited to talk with Santoshi, and we're gonna be kind of focusing on food safety culture both in the States and in the country that she's from.
And this is going to be a lot of fun, 'cause we just had the Food Safety Girl from Jamaica on right before this episode aired, so last week. It's really... I'm really liking, Francine, like having people on that can talk to what's going on globally, 'cause I think a lot of the same stuff that's happening across the world is happening in the States, and vice versa, and so this is gonna be fun.
Francine: So I'm really excited that we are having international guests. It is so exciting because we have a global audience. [00:02:00]
Matt: So Santoshi, we're gonna have you speak, but what I think is really gonna be cool is talking through the differences of food safety culture, 'cause you have a lot of experience in the States, but you also came from India.
So-
Santoshi: Yeah ...
Matt: this will be really interesting, too, to hear, like, differences, similarities, and where you see the future. You've had a long history in food safety, and so with that, tell us about yourself.
Santoshi: Good morning, everybody. It's nice for having... You know, I'm very glad to be a part of Don't Eat Poop podcast.
I've been listening to your podcast from, you know, pretty long time, and I really wanted to, you know, be on the podcast and share my insights on food safety culture. So yeah. So coming to my introduction, I'm Santoshi Moriki. I'm from India. So I have moved to y- the States in 2023. Before, I've been working into food safety and quality with the ITC AgriBusiness in India, have been [00:03:00] continued.
You know, I think I've, I worked for almost, like, 10 years over there, and then I've moved to the States to do my master's in food science and nutrition. So I did it from University of Central Oklahoma. And then while doing my master's, I was glad that I got an opportunity to be a food safety manager.
Again, my dream job with Affiliated Foods, but this time, it's warehousing and distribution, not a manufacturing unit.
Matt: Awesome. So warehousing, cold chain, very, very different than manufacturing, but some of the same overlap, right?
Santoshi: Yes
Matt: What type of products were you manufacturing?
Santoshi: In India, I used to work for the produce processing.
You get the blueberries, the strawberries, and the other produce. So we just, we used to procure the raw produce and then process it and pack it and just send it into the market. So that's what I have been dealing there. But when it comes to [00:04:00] here, it is completely different. I deal with cold chain, I deal with dry grocery products, I deal with frozen products, produce, dairy, meat, like a whole lot of all the products which we eat on a day-to-day basis.
Yeah.
Matt: Nice. Before we start talking about food safety culture and all that stuff, how would you define food safety culture?
Santoshi: So what I feel is food safety culture according to me is really about what people do when nobody is watching.
Matt: Amen.
Santoshi: So that's what I see, because on a day-to-day basis, I see... I mean, we have rules, we have all the certifications, everything well-written perfectly, rules and regulations, but I see nobody follows them.
They just do it as per their cons- you know, their own convenience. So we still have a culture in place, but, you know, what I feel is people, when you walk onto the floor, I don't see people actually doing that. They might be thinking [00:05:00] of what would happen if I report something wrong. Instead, you know, they would just be, if I report something, if I see something wrong, they don't report it.
Instead, they just think that it's not my job. That's fine. I'm just concerned about my own job, and then j- just leave it and... But, you know, what I feel is when, even when nobody's watching, what you do correctly, I mean, like how, what you do exactly, that is what I feel is food safety culture.
Francine: How do you think we can change that?
Santoshi: I feel that that should be, and we can't impose that on everybody. You can't teach them. You know, even though there are, like, hundreds of food safety annual orientation trainings, how many of our trainings, the trainings are just like how many of our trainings you give, they are, I feel they are waste of time.
It's just like, you know, even though for instance, I see on my day-to-day activities, I just walk onto the floor for an instance, and
Francine: then [00:06:00] I see the people, they take the training and they just come out.
Santoshi: And since I'm working in a warehouse, I can give you a warehouse example. So they know how to load the pallets, they know how to place the loads in, in the particular slots et al, but they all are well-trained.
But when it comes to putting that training into action, they just do it as per their convenience. They just, they just leave it wherever they want. For an instance, when the receiving team gets the load, instead of placing that particular load in the particular slot which has to be there, they just, you know, leave it.
Since, again, it's time constraints, I don't know what, what, what they do is they just leave it in some part of the warehouse and that becomes a missing pallet. And by the end of the day, there should be one or the other person who would be searching for the pallet. But what [00:07:00] happened initially was the person who was not accountable for his job.
Matt: Yeah. You've been both in manufacturing and warehousing and distribution. Where do you see, like, the biggest cultural issues or the biggest, the biggest issues with trying to manage food safety and food safety culture in manufacturing versus warehouse and distribution?
Santoshi: It is everywhere. It's not just, you know, you can't just say that the problem is more in the manufacturing side and the warehouse is not so good, but the problem is everywhere.
Right from procuring raw materials till the food reaches to the customer's plate, you know, whoever we eat to my plate, you know, it's like I see the problem is everywhere in each and every step. Because I have few of my friends working for the manufacturing, they are into food safety and quality on a day-to-day basis.
We just have our random talks of what's going on in their industry, what's going on with the [00:08:00] updates. Even they share many problems which they deal with on a day-to-day basis. So I see there's a lack of food safety culture in manufacturing and also in warehousing.
Matt: Agreed. It's just kind of different, right?
Like manufacturing- Yeah ... tends to be a little bit more strict, and warehousing and cold chain distribution, it's like things are in the package already, like what do we need to really worry about as much? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you've been around for 12 years in India and in the United States. This is kind of like a two-part question, but over the t- I mean, 12 years, we first started talking about food safety culture maybe a decade ago.
So what have you kind of seen over the decade with food safety culture and food safety in general? And then what are some of the biggest differences you see in India versus the United States?
Santoshi: I mean, like, there are few differences where I realize. So when I was working in India, we, I mean, like, we didn't [00:09:00] have traceability.
I mean, like, when it comes to the US, you have the FSMA, the traceability, the foreign supplier verification programs, and all these as the core differences which we didn't have in it, in India. All we knew was the good manufacturing practices in place, the good distribution practices in place, and just the, you know, does your facility have a good registration?
Just these things mattered, but later on I knew that there are many more beyond what the GMPs. And I also see that, you know, the enforcement. Here I see FDA, USDA, and the city health inspections, every, you know, all these happening regularly. Like, they can walk in any time to your facility to inspect. But there you don't have those.
You know, you have only a scheduled audit maybe, like, once a year or not even, sometimes not even... Nobody turns up to inspect the [00:10:00] facility even in a year. It would be just a government agency, and that might be, like, sometimes once a year or else once in two years. So I see... I mean, it's not like defaming something but the culture there, but I see that has to improve a lot.
I see there should be a lot of improvement because I see a lot of food. Even though I'm here, even though I'm present physically here, I still look up on the food safety issues going on in India too because I have friends over there too working with Nestle and other companies, so I keep talking to them.
But I see a lot of difference in, you know, mainly the audits, the, what you say, processes which they follow. So yeah, this is the difference.
Matt: Yeah.
Francine: Their audits and inspections are scheduled
Santoshi: over there? They are scheduled, but not regularly. Here we have it, like we have [00:11:00] scheduled audits once a year annually or six months, once in six months, and we have unscheduled audits too.
People just walk into the facility and they have the right to just walk. But there, that, that thing is not there. Like, nobody walks into your facility anytime, and they are just scheduled an inspection once a year. Some facilities don't even schedule an inspection once a year. They just do, like, based on their own convenience.
When everything is good, then they call for an inspection or else no
Matt: Right. So it's more third party in India, right? Like more-
Santoshi: Yes ...
Matt: SQFBRC, IFS type stuff over there, right?
Santoshi: Yes. And one thing which I don't feel it's a good practice in India is, like, when something is wrong, people don't say it out loud, and they are asked to not to say, not to talk about anything, and they are, they've been given some sort of bribery [00:12:00] or gifts or something, like just to...
Yeah, that happens. That happens a lot in food industry in India. So even the inspectors are like, they just don't talk anything. So that is what, like, I feel, but here it is, like, completely different.
Francine: I was gonna ask about that, but yes.
Matt: Yeah. You had a long career over India before the United States, so with- in India, though, have you seen...
Like, I always think of things as it takes time, right? And if there are baby steps that are happening along the way, then everybody kind of grows to that next level over and over and over again. Are you kind of seeing that happening? And are consumers more interested in food safety now in India?
Santoshi: Okay. So initially when I started my career as a food safety supervisor with ITC Agro, so I faced a lot of challenges.
So whenever I see there's something wrong or when an employee [00:13:00] is not following a process as per what he is supposed to do it, I mean, I, uh, even though I report it, they just don't take any action. They didn't, and they used to just say that, "Oh, that's fine. We'll handle it later." Or they used to ship the product which is of not approved by the quality, but say that, "We'll take it, you know, we'll look at it later if there is any consequence."
So that attitude of looking at it later when something happens, that was the one which I didn't feel it was good, but I raised my concern, I raised my voice. But again, you know, since in India it is still there that, you know, in the food industries, the woman population, woman w- employee us are, we are very less when compared to the men.
They say that always the management or the hierarchy is always men. And whatever we say as a woman, I faced, like this, I [00:14:00] faced a lot of challenges being that, you know, I was just taken as, I don't say I was taken granted, but I was just like, even though I raise my concern or if I put forth a solution for anything, I was just, you know, not considered because I'm a woman.
So such things happened with me, but I'm grateful for the position where I'm right now, and here I am the one who takes decisions and people follow. So-
Matt: Welcome to America Right, right. But that, that- Right ... but it depends too. It depends on the culture of the company, 'cause there's still-
Francine: Yes ...
Matt: some-
Francine: Yes, it's culture
Matt: 'cause I've heard the same
Francine: thing happen here in the State. It still happens here sometimes as well. It, it, I will tell you, not quite as frequently, but it does sometimes still happen here as well too. So I am connected with somebody on LinkedIn in India, a man, who is working somewhere where he's trying to implement food safety changes, and [00:15:00] he's running into some roadblocks because, you know.
Santoshi: Oh. Yeah.
Francine: Yes,
Santoshi: yes.
Francine: So
Santoshi: similar- And like- It's what
Francine: you're saying ...
Santoshi: I, yeah, I mean, like, we write our ideas, we submit proposals to the management. By the end of the day, they land up in the dustbin. That's where we feel bad.
Matt: And
Santoshi: was that- We do a lot
Matt: of hard work ... was that the same in the beginning of your career and at the end of it in India?
Santoshi: Yes, it was almost the same for 10 years, and the hierarchy of you getting promoted or you... It, it's not based on what knowledge you have, how much skill you possess, but it's based on the seniority. If you are for so and so years working in the company, if you're like for long period of time, then you get the position first.
It's not based on how much skill you have, but that's what I liked in, so I thought I have to, you know, I would love to be in food industry, in food safety, but not, India is not the place is what I thought, even though I love my country. I'm not [00:16:00] saying something bad about it, but- No,
Francine: no, I understand ...
Santoshi: yeah, that particular industry doesn't work well, so I thought I have to up-skill my knowledge, and I have chosen to do master's.
So after I came to do my master's and then I thought I have, I mean, while doing my master's itself I've got an opportunity and yeah, touch wood, everything is going very good till now.
Francine: Well, the government standards are very different too, so- Yes ... that was not in your favor. Yes. Yeah. So anyway. So what are some of the craziest things you've ever seen within your career?
Santoshi: Some of the craziest things within my career is like, yeah, there are many bad things which I've seen too. So, okay, it's just like, you know, people just not doing their job, like when they receive a product, [00:17:00] in particular, not any place, but when they receive a product, people just don't check because they're lazy sometimes.
Sometime- yeah, that happens mainly. They're lazy. They just blindly scan it. Some people on the phone scanning the, you know, texting somebody, scanning the product, not even looking at it, just passing it, saying it's good to go. Yeah, all this happen. I see that daily with my eyes, like not, I mean, I've seen it.
I've seen many instances where I- w- I've caught that person, explain things, when again, took back to the training and again, but again, it's the same.
Matt: Do you have incidences where there are people that just get it, and they are doing it every day, and then there are people that don't get it, like food safety expectations, food safety culture, and how do you manage that?
Santoshi: Like everybody, and then like what I feel is everybody get it, but they act as if they don't get it [00:18:00] sometimes. When, as per their convenience, everybody get it. But again, they say like, and then- They do it as per the convenience is what I feel. They just wanted that work to be completed on, for that time, but they ready to face the consequences later.
So they are al- always in a rush. I mean, when it comes to quality, they don't worry about quality, they are always worried about quantity. Like, how many, always behind the numbers. Like, how many did we do? How many did we do? But when it comes to quality, there is no quality. And there is, that is where there is always a fight between quality and operations wherever you go.
Irrespective of the country, operations team and quality are neck to neck because we stop everything. Whenever we find something wrong, we stop it, and they just don't want to do [00:19:00] stop it. They just wanna rush it. Sometimes they don't even involve quality people to inspect, and they do our inspections too and send it-
Matt: Yeah
Santoshi: for dispatch.
Matt: Right. And that's the disconnect everywhere, and I mean, I've, I've seen it through my whole entire career, right? And it's so hard because... And that's probably the hardest right there.
Francine: Yeah. '
Matt: Cause one is the goal is volume, right? Like, the goal is- Yes ... hitting all your contracts and the volume.
Yes. And then the other side of the goal is, yes, but we also want good quality, and that is a constant debate. And regardless of how good your food safety culture is, that is still going to be a constant debate. And how that happens is the biggest thing I think the industry needs to solve, and that could be just a better explanation of what the product is, right?
Like, because, okay, so if you're, in your previous, you're manufacturing produce, right? The produce comes in is the produce that comes in, right? [00:20:00] Yes. If your goal is to have a certain amount of contracts with A grade, a certain amount of contracts with B grade, a certain amount of contracts with C grade, and all you have is a bunch of B+, right?
Santoshi: Yes. Yes.
Matt: How are you going to get those A contracts filled? And so then you have to, like, th- then it's like, okay, well, how then do we have that where procurement and sales are on board to have conversations with the clients as well? Listen, like, due to everything that's happened, weather, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we can't get enough A grade, so we're gonna be- Yes
sending you B+ grade. How do you wanna handle that? Yes. Because also, if you're only receiving B grade, probably your competitors are only getting B grade, because they're all getting from the... You all have your growers, but everybody's growing in the same region, and if something goes wrong with the crop, it kind of affects a lot of people, right?
And so- Yes ... so then it's like, okay, how do we maintain food safety culture, make sure that we have the volume going, and make sure that the clients are [00:21:00] also understanding what they're receiving so they're not kicking it back? That whole entire connection, I think, is the hardest thing to implement. And once that's done, then all of a sudden then you're way more trusted by your clients- Yes
and, and the growers- Yes ... and everybody.
Santoshi: Yes.
Matt: But that's hard, and that will always be hard, particularly when you're dealing with produce.
Santoshi: Yes.
Matt: Yeah.
Santoshi: It is.
Matt: CPG products, a little different, right? Like, they can pick and choose ingredients and whatever they're doing, blah, blah, blah, but produce, produce is hard.
Santoshi: It is hard, yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Santoshi: And the other craziest thing which I see, the paperwork. When it comes to paperwork, I see all pretty, pretty numbers over there with no issues anywhere. I don't trust that. I don't trust that. And, yeah, the temperatures are very good as per what they have to be, but I don't see any temperature reading which is out of range, and I don't see any corrective [00:22:00] actions mentioned.
Like, wow, how perfectly is this, like, your facility is so perfect. I see these when I go for audits. I do my internal audits, and I see all perfect. And sometimes I do even see, like, 36, 36, 36, 36, 35, 35, 35. Like, how do you... Like, the other person, I don't even understand, like, will the person even not think, like, how the auditor would think?
Like, how come it is, like, so perfect? The paperwork is like, I feel like they just sit and they just randomly write the numbers. Well, they did
Matt: I tell this story all the time. Yeah. Like, when I was helping companies and consulting companies for auditing and stuff, and I'd go in and I would be looking and helping them figure out what's going on and stuff, and I'm like, "Okay, so seriously, this same person that filled out this log worked three shifts a day for the last- Yes
365 days?" Like, you didn't think, like, if you're gonna manufacture the log, like, pencil whip this [00:23:00] completely, you didn't think to maybe use a different pen, put a couple coffee stains- Yes ... on the paper, make this look believable? Wrinkle
Francine: it up a little bit, something. Something. Like, we are not- Yes ... idiots.
Santoshi: And sometimes they forget to, you know, they print the same year's papers for the next year, too, and they forget to make sure to change the year over there.
Matt: Not only do we have the logs for this year, but we have the logs for next year, too. Do we have to have the audit- Yeah. Yes ... do next year's audit at the same time? Yes.
Francine: And we're gonna be extra diligent and print them for the following year as well. We talk about this all the time, 'cause we've both seen it, and it's like you've worked three shifts for the last 30 days And not a day off.
Come on. Come on. Not one coffee stain, not one wrinkle, not one bend. No
Santoshi: And you know what the, one of the most craziest thing is recently, I mean, like I've read it somewhere, and one of my [00:24:00] friends also said this, so with the technology, the AI in progress, so whenever there's no document when the auditor is in, in your office, whenever there is no document, they just make up that document in seconds.
Just give the instructions to AI, get the document, sign it, and give it.
Matt: Oh, we need this SOP? Hold on a second. We can get you this SOP. Oh, you need a log- Yeah ... attached to this SOP? No problem. Yes. Just give me a minute. Come
Santoshi: on. Yeah, just give me a minute. And this is why
Francine: they don't wanna move away from paper.
Matt: Yeah.
Santoshi: Many food facilities, they are still, you know... That's the reason I feel they don't want to move, move on with the paper. They just wanna stick with the paper even though we ask them to, you know. I've seen many people approaching, uh, for digital, you know, for being digital, recording everything digitally, but no, they just wanna stick with the paperwork.
Matt: Well, with great thing, things are recorded [00:25:00] digitally, right? It's timestamped. So- Yes. Uh-huh ... that is really nice about moving to digital, and even when you're... It depends, like, right? Like, if it's... Y- you could have it internal software that is, you know, using SharePoint or Google Docs, and the same thing. When, when it's up there, you can go see, like, when was it originally uploaded and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But-
Santoshi: Yeah ...
Matt: like, if you're using third-party software, even the SOPs- Mm-hmm ... when the SOPs are logged or put into the system is timestamped. Every log that is done is logged as timestamped. So that is nice because then, um- Yeah ... as, like, a food safety supervisor like yourself, you can kind of have, like, real-time analytics as you're going through that and seeing, "Where am I seeing issues?"
and blah, blah, blah, blah. So paper is nice, but paper can, is easily just pencil-whipped too. Yeah.
Francine: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Santoshi: I mean, like, I can just sit here and write anything I want for what I haven't done yesterday too. I can just make sure I was there for [00:26:00] y- Just do it from home Uh, yeah, before the audit, just sit down and make all the papers and that's what I see a lot of people doing.
Matt: So what do you see the future of food safety culture? Like, what are things that you are in- you're looking to implement? Like you said, like, the company you work for is great, and so, like, as you're kind of seeing what's going on now and where you see the future is, like, what type of things are you guys looking to implement for food safety culture?
Santoshi: So I am trying to work more around the recall. Since I am in warehouse and distribution, my focus is more on the recalls, which I get on a day-to-day basis. So I have been deal, I deal with a lot of recalls from... So I handle more than thousand suppliers here. It's a big warehouse. So every now and then I see suppliers, you know, recalling some of the other products.
So I was like, once I sat down and I was thinking that, okay, recall is when [00:27:00] there is a food safety culture failure. Recall is stage where there is, the failure is already done. But what we can do before that occurrence of the failure, what can one do to prevent that failure? So I was just looking, you know, I've written few papers and a few re- written few articles too with the food safety tech, and I've been talking with many industry experts on how we can implement those in the manufacturing facilities too.
I know, you know what, they have their own processes, procedures, and everything in place, but nobody follows that really. For an instance, when you receive the product, the QA or the QC should be there along with the receiving team to look at the quality of the product and accept it or reject it based on how it is.
But that doesn't happen all the time. The paperwork is also filled up by some other person [00:28:00] who is, the authorized person doesn't fill up the paperwork. It's been filled up by some other person who doesn't even know what, who, you know. So that's the first step where I feel like, so there are many other steps like that, and each and every pro- you know, when it, when you just get down there, many things which are happening like these So I feel that I have to, you know, I'm trying to talk to everybody around and trying to figure out something from my end.
And I have also done one thing where from what I can do for my company is, so since I deal with thousands of suppliers, so in order to mitigate the risk of the recalls, I have classified them into different tiers, like high-risk suppliers, medium-risk suppliers, and low-risk suppliers. And then based on the compliance documentation, I keep my m- high focus on the high-risk suppliers, the ready-to-eat foods, the [00:29:00] produce, and all.
So I make sure they have all the documentation in place. Whenever there any, you know, any of the documentation is expiring or anything, I immediately alert them. And if I don't, I give them some grace period and then, like 30 days. If I don't get the proper documentation by that time, then I am like, I clearly let them know that we are not doing any business with them unless and until we have the document in place.
So, and the medium l- risk suppliers too comes the next, and the low risk are the ones which are non-food products, like the paper, toilet paper, and all that stuff. So this is how I segregated my suppliers, and it is easy for me to have a view of what everybody are doing. And when the recent cyclospora recall we had, I alerted my team, my produce, our directors, my management team.
We have gone through all of our suppliers and filtered them, like who all supply us [00:30:00] lettuce. And we made sure we reached out to them asking about if they are affected by that, and we also checked our inventory here. So just to make sure that the food we supply to our customers and our stores is safe.
Yeah, so s- we just, uh, so from my end, I and my team, I have a great team, so we all work together. So this is what I'm trying to do.
Matt: That is a great example. That is, and that is- It is. And when you're looking at recalls, obviously there's a whole lot of different reason why recalls are, are happen, right? Yeah.
But are you putting recalls and rejections all at the same category? Or like if you reject a product for quality, that's not really a recall, right? That's a rejection.
Santoshi: No.
Matt: So you're talking about- Yeah, that's a rejection ... your, your suppliers calling you up and being like, "Hey, you need to pull this stuff off of your shelf."
And then you're like, "Okay," and then, "Who else has this product?" Yes. "And what other products could be affected that is on the shelves that I haven't received a phone [00:31:00] call yet from? Maybe I should make that-" Yeah. "... phone call and see-" Yeah. "... is this also affected?" So that's great, 'cause you're now taking it from reactive, which you have to, supplier calls you, you have to react to it, and then proactive, what other things might this be affecting?
And let's go make sure that that's, that that's taken care of as well.
Santoshi: Yeah
Matt: That's-
Santoshi: So- ...
Matt: beautiful
Santoshi: Yeah, I've got all this, like I've- since I've been working around with many industry experts, I also take my little guidance from Frank Yiannas, the former commissioner. Yeah, so I go to him for any advice I need whenever I have any pr- issues.
Mainly I've been dealing with this traceability stuff, so I ge- I go to him and he give me little advices. So yeah, based on that, any issue I have, I just ask him or ask any FDA directly. I reach out to them because they are the ones who make the rules. And as per that, I make sure tomorrow nobody should come and question me and say that, "You are [00:32:00] doing something wrong."
So I am just having all my documentation in place. I make sure whatever I get the information, I also let my management know that this is what is happening and we have to do this in this way.
Matt: I love that. I- This is
Francine: where I got my advice.
Matt: I love that. I love that, and I love this world too, that you could just call Frank Yiannas and he'll talk to you about something.
Like, that is so the food safety world, and it's great, and I don't think that there's enough of this, like, happening, and where people are realizing that there are resources, that you don't have to do this alone. And-
Santoshi: Yeah ...
Matt: that is so great. And when you say, like, you're preparing too, you're prep- you're basically talking about preparing for FSMA 204, right?
Santoshi: Yes.
Matt: Yes.
Santoshi: Yes.
Matt: Yeah. So the traceability law that's coming up and, you know, that basically Frank Yiannas-
Santoshi: 2028, yeah ...
Matt: helped write, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Francine: The food safety world is, is so small, and people don't realize how small it is [00:33:00] relatively speaking. I know that I didn't. And people are genuinely willing to help
Santoshi: Yes.
Many, I mean, like whoever I reach out to, I mean, I feel like, I mean, earlier when I was in India, I didn't have much access to everybody where I can talk to some expert and get an advice. But after coming in here and started working here, and, you know, I, through LinkedIn I reach out to many other people, and everybody are very good and very, you know, highly expertised people.
They are always ready to help me any time they want, you know? It's like any time I reach out through a message, they just get back to me, and I'm very happy for that. Yeah.
Matt: Okay. So I just have to ask this question because last week I was blindsided about, uh, Food Safety Women. Are you part of Food Safety Women?
Santoshi: Yes, Women in Food Safety.
Matt: Of course you are.
Santoshi: Yeah. Of course you are. Women in Food Safety.
Matt: Women in Food Safety. Yeah. Sorry, Women in Food Safety. Is there a [00:34:00] branch in India, Francine? You might know this, or- No ... Santosh.
Santoshi: No. No. Ah. No.
Matt: It sounds like there needs to be a branch- No ... in India. I'm just saying.
Santoshi: Yes.
Melanie? I wanted to... I, I actually got a thought, and I thought I'll speak to Melody, yeah, Melody about it, and yeah, maybe I'll speak to her in future. Or else I'm going to the Food Safety Consortium. There I'm presenting my work on the risk-based supplier, so maybe I'll speak to her there.
Matt: Oh, great. Oh,
Santoshi: nice.
We'll be there.
Matt: We'll be there. We'll see you there.
Santoshi: Oh, wow. Then I'll, yes, we'll see you there.
Matt: Perfect. Yeah, Food Safety Consortium, that is a great place to network, which is probably where- Yes ... like, 'cause Frank Yiannis is usually there, right? I know he's at a lot of different conferences, but yeah, it's great to meet a whole bunch of people there, so yeah.
Are there conferences like that in India, like food safety type conferences in India?
Santoshi: Yes, they are there, but again, when I was there, since I was just a food safety supervisor, again, [00:35:00] it's only the manager, director, those level, I mean, that level of people would go and attend, but we were not ev- I didn't even know such conferences were there until and unless I came in here.
Matt: Ah.
Santoshi: Yeah.
Matt: You know, I think that is probably what happens in the States as well. We need to get more junior food safety people at food safety conferences to network and stuff and get... Because I see that a lot too. It tends to be like the vice presidents- Yes.
Santoshi: Yeah ... the
Matt: directors, et cetera, that are there. I mean, Francine and I have been to food safety conferences where we've seen people who've just started their career, year one.
Yes. I absolutely love that.
Francine: Yeah.
Matt: But it, yeah, it tends to be more that.
Francine: So that is part of the objective of Women in Food Safety is to bring in more younger females, but not just females, clearly men as well, but it is younger females.
Santoshi: Yes. Like right from the university, once they get out of [00:36:00] the university- Mm-hmm
once they start their career. It's just like a woman helping another woman, helping in networking in their career growth. Yes. It's a very wonderful organization. I, I feel I'm, I'm, you know, very glad to be a part of that.
Matt: Man, it has grown so much too. Now I've just gotta get to the point where I just assume if you're a woman and we're talking to you in food safety, that you're in Women in Food Safety.
Santoshi: Yeah.
Matt: If not, you should be. If not, you should be. It's a, it's a great group.
Santoshi: You should be. Yes,
Francine: yes.
Santoshi: Everybody should be, yeah. I mean, like I have a team of five people here, so along with me joining the Women in Food Safety, I have also made my other two girls, they also... I ma- I made them join too.
Francine: They
Santoshi: also keep- Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt: You make that sound like, like, like you have to join.
Santoshi: Yes. Okay, so almost like that.
Francine: In fact- I think I'm gonna wanna talk to you ...
Santoshi: so see, you [00:37:00] got new friends, you have new people over here you can join, you can talk to them. So it's just like another networking site. You always have Facebook, Instagram, and all this, so just have this too, and talk to people and work.
Yeah.
Matt: I love it. I love it. Okay. So I think we're gonna be ending this now, but this was such a great conversation, and would love to kinda connect with you again. But before we go, is there anything else you wanna say?
Santoshi: I am thankful for this opportunity, you know, for Francine and you, and you for giving me this opportunity to talk and share my insights on what I deal as a food safety expert in my field.
So I am actually very... I, I just say I'm grateful for this opportunity, and thank you.
Matt: Francine and I say this often, it's like I think our podcast is kinda like therapy for food safety people. Yes. Um, I think it wasn't where if we were going, we would like- You know- ... we want to have a food [00:38:00] safety podcast for, like, consumers to be able to like listen.
But the more and more, like, we talk to people, they're like, "Oh my gosh, it's so great to hear that other people have gone through this." 'Cause, like, food safety people are kinda siloed in their own little world, right? And like you were saying, like you really didn't have anybody else to really talk to when you first started.
Santoshi: Yes.
Matt: Which is awesome that you've stuck with it for this long too. And I, what I find is the people that we talk to have gone through a, a long history of like, kinda like anybody who starts now is starting from a very different position than it was like 12 years ago, 20 years ago, right? Like, it was a trog in the United States even for food safety people.
But now it's, the world is, like, everybody's kind of realizing this is the new normal now. And so like the war stories from 12 years ago to now, and you're like, "I'm thinking about the future. I got all these things I'm doing. I'm-
Santoshi: Yes ...
Matt: I forced well every girl that's in, in my team- Yes, in my
Santoshi: company to join
to join
Matt: women- Yes ... in food safety, and now we can talk about [00:39:00] stuff." And it's, it's... Yeah, so if you're feeling siloed, and you feel, and you're listening to this show, and you think you're the only one dealing with whatever you're dealing with, that's not the case. It's not the case at all, so.
Santoshi: And you know what?
This podcast has become my day, you know, part of my life. It's funny, but, you know, I also listen to the podcast when I'm working out in the gym. I just put my AirPods and I just I even listen to it. Yeah, I have done that, too. So it's been part of my daily life now. So whenever there's a new episode, I keep listening to it.
Awesome. I keep listening to what the other person would say, what are their thoughts, and all, yeah.
Matt: Great.
Santoshi: Well, that is, that
Francine: is great. We're thrilled that it's grown like it has, so.
Matt: Yeah.
Francine: Yeah.
Santoshi: Thank you.
Matt: All right. Well, Satoshi, don't eat poop