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Glory In The Mess is a podcast in which we share discoveries we have made in our journey together as an intentional Christian community with a focus on worship. The first series focuses on Practising the Presence of God, and we share our thoughts and experiences, as well as our reflections on writings by a variety of authors including Brother Lawrence, Henri Nouwen, Frank Laubach and Ronald Rolheiser. The Glory In The Mess podcast is hosted by the Presence House of Worship community. Dan Lee is asking the questions, and his conversation partners include Robin Dillamore, Helen Carr, Mirkku Ridanpaa and Claire Dillamore.
Robin: The heart posture that we
have is I want to be practicing
his presence all the time.
This is something that's going
to help me to do it more success
is to spend more time thinking
about him today than yesterday.
Helen: It's not about watching the
clock, it's about looking at Jesus.
And ultimately, it takes
the pressure right off.
It's like, just fix your eyes
on Jesus as much as you can and
put things in place to do that.
Dan: Welcome to the Glory in the Mess
podcast by Presence House of Worship.
Today, we're starting our series
on practicing the presence of
God, a phrase made popular by the
French monk, Brother Lawrence.
We're going to be exploring
together how we can grow in living
in constant fellowship with God
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
So glad that you could join us.
In the room today we have Robin Dillamore,
Helen Carr, Christy Lee, my wife doing
production, and Myself, Dan Lee, and we
also have a fifth member of our wonderful
community, Helen, do you want to share?
Helen: Oh yeah, there's a
little baby girl inside me.
She's going to come out
in about six days time.
Dan: Amazing.
How are you feeling?
Helen: I'm excited to meet her.
Yeah, little Abigail.
Dan: So yeah, why don't you guys just
introduce yourselves a little bit.
So, Helen.
Helen: I think it would be
good to start by letting people
know who we are as a group.
And so we are called Presence House
of Worship because we are a group
of Christians in Blakon in Chester.
who want to do life on life
as an expression of church.
We want to be engaged actively in a
house of worship, and we want to see
what it looks like to give our whole week
rather than a couple of hours a week to
worshipping Jesus and communing together.
And my name is Helen.
And I am part of this community and
very excited to share some thoughts
on practicing the presence of God.
Dan: Yeah, and so practicing the presence
of God has been a theme that Robin,
you've been living with quite a long time.
And some of your thinking around
this has emerged within this
community that we're a part of.
So, yeah, tell us a bit
more about how that began.
Robin: Yeah, well, I thought about it.
Years ago, when I was a young
Christian in my teens and read the
book by Brother Lawrence called The
Practice of the Presence of God and
thought that'd be a great thing to
be able to do, but didn't really see
how it could be something I could
realistically aim for in my own life.
So kind of just shelved it as a great
idea, but don't know how to get there.
And then About a couple of years ago I
read two or three different places where
people were saying this isn't just a
great idea It's something that's actually
achievable and there are men and women
of God through the the years who have
actually managed to practice the presence
of God in their daily lives and So that
got me thinking on a whole different
plane as to okay if it's achievable Then I
want to think about seriously, how can I?
go about achieving this and how can we,
as people living in community together,
go after this goal in our own lives.
So that's kind of how it started.
Helen: And when I heard Robin
talking about that, it excited me.
So I think the whole subject
itself is quite contagious.
Yeah.
As a thought.
Dan: Hmm.
So I, I'm gonna be honest.
I'm quite fresh to Brother Lawrence.
I haven't read his book, although
I've heard a lot of people talk
about him and rave about him.
So where does the phrase practicing
the presence of God come from?
Like, how does he articulate it?
Robin: Yeah, off the top of my head,
I couldn't tell you which century
Brother Lawrence lived in, but it
was France and it was medieval,
kind of, several hundred years ago.
And he was a monk who wasn't a kind
of a, in charge of the monastery
or a kind of bigwig or anything.
He was just a simple guy who washed
the dishes, but discovered that God
was there all the time, and he could
practice God's presence all the time.
The book is actually mostly not his own
writings, but it's other people wrote
down conversations they'd had with him.
Plus, they've included some letters
that he wrote to various people,
usually related to this subject and
what he learnt about how to just
stay in God's presence all the time.
And he was Someone who said that
he'd reached the point where really
he pretty much thought of God all
the time, whatever he was doing.
Dan: That is incredible.
That's quite a claim to make, isn't it?
Uh
Helen: huh.
Dan: And challenging.
When I hear that, I feel
quite challenged about that.
I don't know how you guys feel.
Helen: Oh yeah, it's challenging for sure.
And I think one of the things, again,
I can't remember the exact quote
because it's been several years since
I read the book, but I remember him
saying something along the lines of,
the moment he finds that he hasn't
been thinking about God, he doesn't
beat himself up, he just starts again.
And I love as well, I know we're
going to get on to talking about
Frank Lowe Buck's book, um, But
one of the things he talks about is
it's not about watching the clock.
It's about looking at Jesus.
And ultimately it takes
the pressure right off.
It's like, just fix your eyes
on Jesus as much as you can and
put things in place to do that.
It takes the pressure off.
It makes it feel less
overwhelming, I think, somehow.
Robin: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I think one of the great
things about brother Lawrence is he
communicates that his relationship
with God is something delightful.
So he loves to think about God
and thinking about God is a
source of joy and bliss to him.
And therefore it's something that
draws you in and is attractive.
It's not something that makes you think,
Ooh, I will, I could never be like
that because I'm not as holy as he is.
He comes across as a very humble, self
effacing man, a person just like us.
Dan: Wow.
And that's encouraging.
Helen: Yeah.
And one of the quotes from Frank
Laubach is, he said, this is a new
delight you are learning and it
must not be turned into a task.
And again, just to kind of like
view the whole conversation before
we even start having it really.
Yeah.
Within that lens, we're not wanting to
prescribe a task that is unachievable.
We want to invite people
into this journey of delight.
Dan: Yeah, this is something
about duty and delight.
So practicing the presence
of God, is it biblical?
Robin: Yeah, I would say it is.
I looked up a few verses in readiness.
Um, Because I don't want to be
pursuing a practice that's just
somebody's good idea, if it's not
something that's also biblical.
But actually, I think, once you start
looking for it, you find that it's a
theme that runs throughout the scriptures.
For example, one of the great
commandments, Love the Lord
your God with all your heart.
Heart, soul, mind and strength
really is about giving God your, all
your attention and actually I think
practicing his presence involves
all of those aspects of who we are.
So we can think a lot about the mind
and how we can be thinking about God
all the time which is loving God with
all your mind but actually I believe
it brings our soul and our strength
and our heart into play as well.
Um, but there are other verses
like in Psalms, I think it's Psalm
16, where David says, I've set
the Lord continually before me.
So that, to me, is David saying that
his goal, even his practice was to be
thinking about the Lord all of the time.
1 Thessalonians 5.
17 is a verse that says pray continually.
Dan: Right.
Robin: And different people interpret
continually differently, but I
actually think that where people
try and interpret it to mean it.
Surely doesn't mean all the time that's
because they just can't see how their
practice could match up to What paul is
asking us all to do or encouraging us all
to do to pray continually, but I actually
believe it's a goal that paul wants to
Encourage us to go towards because he
has learned how to do that for himself
Helen: Yeah
Robin: and
Helen: in galatians it talks about Keeping
in step with the spirit You know, you
don't want to fall behind or go ahead.
You want to keep in step You
What does that look like, if
not to be alongside Holy Spirit?
And plus, we are a temple.
We are a place where
the Holy Spirit dwells.
And so if He's always with us,
then we are always with Him.
with the presence of God.
And so how is that not
biblical to be mindful of that?
And there's another couple of
angles as well that you could take.
If you looked at the, um, the end
of Matthew 28, where Jesus commands
us to go and make disciples and then
says, I am with you always to the
end of the age, what is a disciple if
not somebody who is walking with God?
Jesus.
Yeah.
And if he's with us always, then
you can think, well, maybe he's
commanding us to walk with him always.
Robin: Yeah.
I was thinking about that earlier today.
One of the things I think about
a lot, pray this regularly, is
that I want to be Jesus disciple.
And the way I define this, my kind of
working definition is, which I think
I learned from Dallas Willard, is I
want to be with you, Jesus, in order
to learn from you how to be like you.
And if I'm going to be his disciple.
All of the time.
And that really means being aware
of his presence all of the time.
Just as the twelve disciples would
have been for those three years that
they were walking with him on earth.
So for me, that is the kind of the
template which we seek to follow.
And obviously it's somewhat different
because he isn't here in physical
presence, bodily presence as a man in
front of us, but he's still with us
by his spirit in just as real a way.
Um, and we perceive his presence by faith.
So obviously I'm learning to do that.
I haven't learned how to live
like that all the time, but
that's the, that's the quest.
Dan: So one of the things I'm kind
of aware of is that in the culture
that we're in, there's a lot of
talk about mindfulness or meditation
and it can be a bit of a mixed bag.
So how would you kind of see
meditation from a Christian standpoint
and kind of thinking on the Lord?
Robin: That's a good question.
I think if I answer the second part
first, the thinking on the Lord part,
um, I think the big difference between
that and mindfulness is that when we're
thinking on the Lord, we're Entering into
a conversation with a real person who
is supernatural and very, very powerful.
Um, and so we're tapping into
all the power that comes and
all the love that comes from his
presence in our lives as well.
So it's any other kind of mindfulness,
uh, can be helpful in bringing.
a bit of serenity, a bit more
peace, or at least stillness.
I don't think the biblical shalom peace
is possible without Jesus, but it can
bring more stillness or serenity to life.
But I think when we're connecting,
because when we're thinking about
the Lord, the Bible says, draw near
to me, and I will draw near to you.
So it's a two way street that he draws.
He's always thinking about us, but
we're so we're connecting with the
one who's constantly thinking about us
and thinking good thoughts about us.
So I think But that's all going
on, so it's much more than a mental
process or mental gymnastics.
I think it's staying in the conversation,
being drawn into the fellowship of
the Father and the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the Godhead, which is mind
blowing in itself to think about.
Helen: I mean, wow, something you just
said I've never thought about before.
It makes it even more biblical to
practice the presence of God when
we're called to be like Jesus.
And when Jesus's thoughts towards
us are as numerous as the sand,
the grains of sand on the seashore.
And it's like, gosh, we, we get to
be like you in thinking about you.
As much as you're thinking
about us, whoa, I'd like to do
that, more than I currently do.
Yeah.
I had a thought this morning, which
I haven't thought about before.
And it probably springs from something
I read in Frank Laubach's book.
But when, when Jesus was on the
cross, he had us in his mind.
He was mindful of us so much so
that he said, you know, forgive
them for what they're doing.
They don't have a clue.
And he had us as the prize set before him.
And it made me think if Jesus doing that
extraordinary thing of being crucified for
the sins of the whole world could still be
practicing a mindful awareness of us, how
much more attainable should it be for us?
Who are trying to be like him, to
think about him in what is most of the
time just mundane day to day living.
Certainly we're never going to
experience anything near that.
But even if we do get pushed to the
extreme, it still doesn't even compare.
And so, it inspired me to think that
he is the person that we're following.
And if he can do it for us, how much
more should we be able to do it for him?
Dan: Wow.
Robin: Yeah, I love that.
For some reason, it made me think of
the two places in Revelation where
it talks about the believers who have
the name of the Father and the name of
the Lamb written on their foreheads.
And for me, that's, that's
another scriptural basis for
what we're talking about.
The ones who are going to be persevering
at the end when Jesus returns are those
who have his name written on their
foreheads and thinking about him all
the time is what that speaks to me of.
But, uh, but it's this
like for like thing.
He's done it for us first.
He's given his life for us first and we've
learned how to be the bride that love him
in the same kind of way that he loves us.
So we're following his
footsteps, following his example.
Yeah, the first half of
your question is about.
Biblical meditation and I think actually
that's the whole area I feel I need
to go and give more thought to because
there are a few verses in the bible
that encourage us to meditate on the
law day and night, uh psalm one joshua
one to jump to mind where yeah, this is
kind of commandment really to meditate
on God's word day and night and I,
that has to be a rich, uh, source of
being able to practice God's presence.
When we're meditating on his
word, again, it's not just
meditating on words on a page.
It's actually, we're entering into
communion with God through the process
of meditating and I never really thought.
Yeah, about how those that interacts
with this whole theme of practicing
God's presence for I feel like
I should have thought of it
Helen: And Psalm 119 is a really
good I feel like it's a good outward
expression of that because it's
littered with I think about Your
thought I meditate on your thoughts.
I meditate on your laws.
I meditate on this
Robin: Yeah, when I was a young christian,
I used to think about memorizing texts
as just something you did to be a good
christian Um, and it was almost because in
danger of becoming the kind of knowledge
that puffs up instead of love that builds
up but when if We think of it in terms of,
this is another meeting place with God.
This message, this text that I'm
learning is a place where I can go
to meet with Jesus, meet with the
Father, meet with the Holy Spirit.
Then that takes it into
a whole different realm.
And I think it's actually,
actually possible to do either.
We can just meditate on the words
and not get further than, than that.
To make sure we're learning,
memorizing the scriptures correctly.
But I actually believe that God's
intention for it is that it's
a place of meeting with him, a
place of fellowship with him.
Dan: Yeah, something active about
christian meditational biblical meditation
that we're focusing on a person I would
say like if when you look at how the
world represents Meditation it's like
putting yourself in neutral and I mean
there's dangers with that Christian
meditation is about being filled being
actively focused on the person who We
have our source of life in and our life
only makes sense in In fact, i've got
a psalm on biblical meditation, which
I wrote down Which I think just really
helps us think about this on the glorious
splendor of your majesty and on your
wondrous works I meditate Psalm 145.
That's beautiful.
Yeah, that's great.
And I what I love about that is a
Dave David or potentially David's
musicians I'm not sure who wrote
this but they've captured something
They've caught something about God
and they're not necessarily filled
with the Holy Spirit They don't have
the same access to God that we have.
So how much more?
Should this be kind of
really there for us?
Yeah,
Helen: such a good point They didn't
have access to the Holy Spirit.
In the same way, certainly, that we do.
We're filled with the Holy Spirit.
How much more should
that be accessible to us?
Dan: Yeah,
Robin: and I think Psalm 145, I've
got the right Psalm, I think he
also talks about how he declares
to God how beautiful he is.
Um, so, it's actually, there's actually
a two way conversation going on between,
I think it is David, and the Lord, where
he's meditating on God's goodness, but
then Speaking back to God just how amazing
he is and I think that's an important part
of, of this whole practice that it is a
conversation that we're actually talking
to the Lord, not just thinking about him.
Dan: So you mentioned a guy
called Frank a couple of times,
who is he and why is he helpful?
Robin: That's a good question.
It's a guy called Frank Laubach who was
an American missionary who in the year
1930 decided he'd kind of do an experiment
to see if he could think about God.
Every minute of every day, uh, and he had,
had the opportunity to do this because he
was away from his family for an extended
period of time, they weren't able to be
with him, and he was On his own, in a far
flung place somewhere in the Philippines.
So he kind of did this experiment,
seeing if he could just experience
God's presence, think about God
moment by moment through the day,
and documented his experiences in
letters that he wrote to his father.
And they've been published, or some of
them, extracts from his letters have
been published in the book, which is
called Letters by a Modern Mystic.
Frank Laubach is L A U B A C H, but I want
to just read you an excerpt because one
of the things he hits on is He answers
the question surely It's not possible to
think about God all of the time because
we have to be thinking about The things
we need to do to get on with life.
He kind of answers that question So
he starts off by saying can we have
that contact with God all the time
all the time awake fall asleep in
his arms And awaken in his presence.
Can we attain that?
Can we do his will all the time?
Can we think his thoughts all the time?
Or are there periods when business and
pleasures and crowding companions must
necessarily push God out of our thoughts?
And then he gives this standard answer
Of course, that is self evident.
If one thinks of God all the time,
he will never get anything else done.
But then he adds, So I thought, too,
until now, but I'm changing my view.
We can keep two things in mind at once.
Indeed, we cannot keep one thing
in mind more than half a second.
Mind is a flowing something.
Like a river, I guess he means.
Mind is a flowing something.
It oscillates.
Concentration is merely the
continuous return to the same
problem from a million angles.
We do not think of one thing.
We always think of the relationship
of at least two things.
And more often, three
or more, simultaneously.
So my problem is this, can I bring
God back in my mind flow every few
seconds, so that God shall always
be in my mind as an after image.
Shall always be one of the elements
in every concept and every percept.
I choose to make the rest of my life an
experiment in answering this question.
So he turned it into what he called
a game, he called it the game with
minutes, and his goal was that in every
minute he would at least spend one
second thinking about God and therefore
God's kind of, the image of God,
thoughts about God would be there as a
kind of afterthought all of the time.
So that's how he defines success.
To think of god even just for a second
each minute Which I found very helpful
Helen: And I found very overwhelming
at first um until I read the book
and realized he was He was wanting
to encourage people on that journey
of delight rather than Making
people look at the clock, just
encouraging people to look at Jesus.
And any success can be measured
by, have you done it more
today than you did yesterday?
Dan: Yeah.
Wow.
So he sort of kind of gamified practicing
God's presence, which is good fun.
While you're speaking, I was
reminded, there's a game.
Um, when you think about
the game, you lose the game.
Robin: Yes.
Dan: But in this game, you win
the game, if you think about.
Robin: Yes.
Helen: And if you are Robin, you just
won the game, because that game can be
used as a means of thinking about Jesus.
Robin: Yeah, but I, I like what Helen
said, because Frank Laerbach, like
Brother Lawrence, Communicate what
they're doing in terms of delight.
It's something they're doing
because they want to do it.
If I think we're not going to get onto the
starting blocks in this whole quest, if
it feels like something that is a duty,
come back to what you're saying earlier.
Um, the whole idea is.
The heart posture that we have
is, I want to be practicing
his presence all the time.
This is something that's going
to help me to do it more.
And again, like Helen said, success
is to spend more time thinking
about him today than yesterday.
Dan: Can you maybe talk a bit about a
good way of understanding discipline?
Because I imagine people listen to this,
maybe have had bad experiences with
this word or being part of communities
and cultures where there has been
heavy burdens being put on people.
Um, so how would you frame
discipline in kind of a light
of practicing God's presence?
Robin: Yeah, I think you're right
that for some people, the very word
discipline can have negative connotations.
For example, in a corporate setting.
You have disciplinary procedures,
which is usually the procedures, which
could lead to somebody being asked
to leave the company, given that P45.
Um, and so for some of us,
discipline is not the best word.
And so sometimes I talk about spiritual
practices rather than spiritual
disciplines, but the idea is the same.
And I, I think the best
analogy I can think of is an
athlete when an athlete does.
Exercises, it's in order to
prepare themselves for something
that they can't currently do.
I once heard someone ask a room full of
people who could run a marathon tomorrow.
Um, and about one or two people put
their hand up and there were 300
in the room, something like that.
But then they said, how many of you, if
you went into a period of training for
four months, could then run a marathon?
And not every hand went up.
naturally, but a lot more hands went
up, and I think it's helpful to see
spiritual disciplines or spiritual
practices as things we do to enable
us to achieve something that we can't
achieve by sheer willpower, which in
our hearts we want to do, and which we
can do through a process of training.
Helen: That is such a good point.
Dan: Yeah, yeah, I think if I was in
that room and the question was put
to me, right, who can run a marathon
tomorrow, I'd be like, oh my word.
But yeah, kind of breaking it down and
saying, actually, there's things in place
that can help you get to that point.
It's really helpful to hear.
Have you got any thoughts on discipline?
Helen: Well, I was just reminded of
another quote by Frank Labak, where
he says, You have probably hitherto
thought of God for only a few seconds
or minutes a week, and he was out of
your mind for the rest of the time.
Now you are attempting, like Brother
Lawrence, to have God in mind each
minute you are awake, or insert the
amount of time that you are attaining.
Such drastic change in habit requires
a real effort at the beginning.
And he later says, It follows the
well known laws of habit forming.
You just have to start somewhere
and then keep trying that thing
until you achieve it better than
you were achieving it before.
And it's useful to have ideas from
people as to how you might do that.
For example, one of Frank's ideas
was have images of, of Christ around.
the place or have something visual that
you fix your attention on in the physical
sense that then reminds you of Jesus.
Robin: Yeah.
One of the, what gets called a spiritual
discipline, um, which I find very helpful
is they call it silence and solitude.
When I say they, I mean, people who
write books, people like John Ortberg
or Dallas Willard will list various
different spiritual practices and One
that commonly gets listed is silence and
solitude, which is something I started
to do before I realized it was a thing.
Um, but I just called it
time with God with no agenda.
It was actually when I was going
through a transition in my life
and stopped working five days a
week on my accountancy practice.
In the time that I was created,
I would eke out some time
just to sit and be with God.
Not to pray about anything
specific, but just to kind of
cultivate my relationship with him.
In the early days, I did a lot of
falling asleep, to be honest, but,
uh, but I've had some catching
up to do on having been overtired
from the previous season in life.
Um, and pretty sure the
Lord was fine with that.
It was what I needed.
Um, But in that time of learning just
to be comfortable in his presence,
I, I think I changed, my relationship
with him changed in such a way that
I've probably found this whole idea of
pursuing the practice of his presence
all the time much more attainable than
I would have done if I hadn't ever
learned how to spend time with him.
Just being with him in quiet, our
minds can't always make sense of
the link between a practice and
how it changes us in our lives.
Maybe this one's more easy one to see the
link because as we learn to spend time
just being aware of his presence that
can overflow into the rest of our day.
Um, but depending on our, I mean, for
me, it was easy to do that because I was
working four days a week instead of five.
And so I'd suddenly created extra time.
I think we all need to I should
have a conversation with the Lord if
it's something you want to pursue.
Okay, so how can I create space?
How can I create time to be with you?
Jesus used to get up early and go off into
the hills to spend time with the Father.
So he, even though he had a very
busy life, it seems, I Managed to
carve out time by getting up early
to be with, be with his father.
But I think God will have creative
solutions for all of us if we ask him.
Dan: Yeah.
Helen, is that something
that you practice?
Silence and solitude.
You've got, you know, a small girl who
demands a lot of your time and attention.
Family to look after.
So what does that look like for you?
Helen: That's a good question.
I think it's different in
different seasons for sure.
I know that I've had a couple of
occasions in the past, which didn't
just impact me for the rest of that day,
but have impacted me up to this day.
There was one time where my charismatic
Catholic friend took me to this place in
central London, which is busy and loud.
And these beautiful
nuns just came and sat.
Before what they perceived to
be the presence of, of God.
And they took it in turns
and they did it on rotation.
And you were just invited to
sit in that space with them.
And I remember sitting there
thinking, I'm not sure I'm going to
cope very well with this silence.
And then before long, I realized that
the silence Whilst externally silent, was
certainly not internally silent, and there
was a shift from being chaotic distraction
noises in my head, that drew my attention
away from Jesus, to a story, an adventure.
That Jesus took me on, in my
mind, in that place of silence.
And I don't know how long I sat there
whilst It was silent from the outside,
from the inside it was glorious.
He was taking me places, he was talking
to me about things, and so I know the
impact that those moments can have,
and to be honest with you, I'm looking
forward to this next season, even though
I'm going to have two little children
and because I know I'm going to be
doing the night watch essentially with a
newborn, feeding every couple of hours.
So through the night, most
of the world is silent.
And so you have an opportunity just
to sit and give him attention in
that silence and stillness because
you can't really move around very
much when you're feeding a baby.
And so I think there are
times there are moments.
When I can make excuses that
I don't have time or capacity.
But ultimately, if I can make time and
capacity to sit and watch a TV program,
I can certainly make time and space
to have some time sitting in silence
and solitude and stillness with Jesus.
Dan: Yeah, I think your point
about being in different seasons
of life, like, it's a good one.
It's good to kind of take
stock and be like, where am I?
What can I do?
And how, where can I actually
kind of make room for this?
And, um, I would say personally,
that would be the way I meet with
God is kind of just sat down.
Still and it does take a bit of time.
I'll be honest to kind of like still
my thoughts I was just thinking about
this morning I've got this and this and
this to do and I'm gonna meet with this
client and call this podcast And so
there's so much kind of running through
your head but to get to that point where
and again circling back to what we were
saying earlier is I think robin you
probably wrote this in in the article
that you wrote on practicing the presence.
It's not so much being quiet But stilling
your heart, which is still an active
thing because it's focused on Jesus.
Like, that's the way that it happens.
And, um, so yeah, it seems like
quite an important part of actually
encountering Jesus on a daily basis.
Helen: Can I add a practical tip that I
learnt when I was at the International
House of Prayer in Kansas City?
One of the things they said was,
When you're practicing silence, it's
okay to have a notepad and a pen.
And if you get a thought that
comes into your head, Oh, I
need to remember to bloody blah.
Oh, I must not forget to bloody blah.
Rather than just trying to ignore
those thoughts, just write them down.
And then you know that they're parked
because our brains are very cleverly
wired to keep reminding you of things.
That it doesn't think you're
going to remember if you don't
write them down or do the thing.
And so just to write it down and then
not let that thought worry you anymore.
And so it's okay to write things down
to stop you from being distracted
then for the rest of that time.
Dan: That's good.
That's great tip.
Probably something I need to adopt.
Robin: If I think back to When I was a
younger Christian, when I started work,
for example, at the age of 21, I guess
I was, um, having become a Christian at
14, so I would say I was still immature
at that stage in my walk with God.
I was a very anxious person back
then, and, um, I started a job.
I felt like being thrown in the deep end.
Suddenly, having been at college where
most of my fellowship was with other
Christians, spent most of my time
eating with other Christians and so
on, suddenly I was thrown into this
environment where I was surrounded
by people who didn't know Jesus.
And I did a lot of driving as well.
I was doing auditing.
I was working for a
large accountancy firm.
We got sent to different places.
I'd be driving around in
our little mini metro.
And I worried all the time at that point.
And I'd be worrying about.
way of how close my feet were
to the bumper, and if I had a
collision, that would be painful.
This sort of thing, these sorts
of thoughts would be pretty much
bombarding my mind to begin with.
And I learned to deal with those
by turning them into prayer.
It says, doesn't it, I think it's
the message version of Philippians
where it says, be anxious for nothing.
The message translates, don't worry, pray.
Um, but that was, The only way I
knew how to respond to these worries
that were assailing my thought
anxiety is about making phone calls.
I hated picking up the phone and
making phone calls to people, but
I had to do that a lot in my job.
So I had to learn to get
through that pain barrier.
And so I, I think I did a lot of
praying in those years because I
needed God and I knew I needed him.
And I knew I couldn't
get through without him.
Um, I actually think I used to get
up early in the morning to pray
because I didn't think I could get
through the day without praying.
So, At that point, my relationship
with the Lord wasn't so much fueled
by delight as by, I really need you.
And so I'm getting get up to spend time
with you because, because I need you.
And at some point, I mean, I
still aware on a daily basis that
I need, I have my need for him.
But at some point, this understanding
that there was a delight aspect.
To my friendship with him, got
headed into the mix as well.
But I kind of want to share that
to encourage people that you don't
have to, it's not all about thinking
saintly thoughts and just feeling
full of peace and tranquility and
living on a mountaintop because the
reality of life is not like that.
But God wants us to learn to turn
every concern, every thing that
we're dealing with into a prayer.
And I think that's realistic for
everybody, especially when we
realize that he's on our side
and he wants us to succeed.
And he's for us.
Dan: Yeah, that's super helpful, Robin.
You mentioned friendship with Jesus.
I wonder if you guys could just reflect
in terms of your journey of this so far.
Like, how, how has it kind of
impacted your friendship with Jesus?
Helen: I don't think you can be
friends with somebody that you
don't have a relationship with.
And I don't think you can have a
relationship with someone that you
don't talk to and hang out with.
And so I, I almost think it kind of It's
almost the reverse, really, because I
have a friendship with him, it's impacted
my ability to remember that he's there.
And the more I remember that he's there,
then it strengthens our friendship.
And I, one of my disciplines is every
morning, almost without fail, just asking
him, what would you say to me today?
And just having him tell me
something that I can then think
about for the rest of the day.
Just makes the world of difference
because my friend has told me
what today is going to look like.
Like he told me today was
going to look like more sitting
down than it did yesterday.
And for me, very real, that's very
helpful when you're 38 weeks pregnant,
um, sitting down, it's great.
And so I think the two go
so closely hand in hand.
I didn't know how I would separate
them to practice his presence
and to be friends with him, I
think is one and the same thing.
It's a strengthening thing.
Robin: Yeah.
If I can come at it from the opposite
direction, I think What I've discovered
is the times when I'm least good at
practicing his presence are the times
when some little thought has slipped
into my mind that has caused there to
be distance between me and, me and him.
Um, basically I've believed a
lie about my relationship with
him or about how he thinks.
About me and if it was obvious
as recognizing here's a lie.
I'm gonna believe it That would be easy,
but they slip in and you find yourself
believing things without realizing that
you've done it And only later you think
oh, I've allowed distance to creep into
my relationship with God What happened?
How did what thought came along that I
believed or didn't kick out that cause
that distance to appear and so I So
I think practicing his presence does
go hand in hand with staying in that
recognition that I'm his friend and
that he's my friend, that he's for me.
And that's why the enemy loves to lobby in
a thought that causes us to question that
or to doubt his goodness, or in my case
it's not so much doubting his goodness,
I never doubt his goodness, I tend to
doubt my own goodness, my own worthiness.
And so something that makes me believe
that I'm somehow unworthy of his
friendship, that will cause me to.
Pull back.
And so I think that's what Song of Songs
is talking about when it says catch the
little foxes It's these little little
thoughts that slip in that try and
get in the way of our intimacy I think
that's a reality for anybody who seeks
to pursue this quest in earnest is we're
going to find out things about ourselves
And things about how the enemy tries
to trick us or trip us up We sometimes
may need to get help from others to
work out how to deal with those things
Dan: Well, I don't know you guys
I'm Looking forward to the other
discussions that we have coming up in
the podcast series about this and what
it means to pursue Jesus and intimacy.
Robin, give us a flavor of
some of the kind of things you
think will be on the horizon.
Robin: Yeah, I think what we're
planning for the next one,
there's a guy called Henri Nouwen.
I always want to say his name in
a French way, but I think it's
pronounced in an American way.
But he's a guy who's written
about this as well from the
perspective of praying at all times.
So he, his launching point
was 1 Thessalonians 5.
17, where Paul writes to pray continually.
Um, and he has some very interesting.
Thoughts about this, but in other
episodes, we're thinking of looking at how
we can divide the day into Segments and
focus on how to practice God's presence
more in one segment or another Look more
of what it means to love him with all
of our heart soul mind and strength and
how that concept Interacts with the idea
of practicing the presence of God, but
also what it means for us as a community
to Practice his presence because the New
Testament was never into individuals or
hardly ever And even when it was written
to individuals it was for the purpose
of them serving church as well The New
Testament was written to communities.
And so we tend to think in the West very
Individualistically, but it'd be great
to explore together what it Actually
looks like where we can go on to quest
together to be people who are living in
his presence abiding in that's another
verse Actually John 15 where Jesus said
abide in me and I will abide in you.
That's another verse that talks all
about Practicing his presence and again
pretty sure Jesus said that to all the
disciples not just to one That is a
corporate abiding that we're going after
So that's kind of some of the thoughts
that we have for future, future episodes.
Sounds awesome.
Dan: Looking forward to it.
Helen: It's
Dan: exciting.
Well, that's it for today's podcast.
Let us know what you think.
Thanks for joining.
Bye.
Robin: Peace.