After the Vows – Careers

In this episode of After the Vows, Joe and Karen Coffey sit down with Josh and Christy Mitchell to talk about how job transitions impact marriage. The Mitchells share stories from their 25 years together, including how they navigated frequent career changes, supported one another through coaching and business ventures, and learned to keep communication central in every transition. They emphasize the importance of serving one another, holding careers loosely, and keeping identity rooted in Christ rather than in work.

What is After the Vows?

After the Vows is a podcast about the real challenges that arise in marriage after the honeymoon phase fades. Hosted by Joe & Karen Coffey, each episode offers honest conversations about growing together through every season of marriage. New episodes drop every Thursday, offering real talk, real struggles, and real hope—whether you're newly married or decades in.

Welcome to After the Vows, a podcast from Christ Community Chapel about the challenges that show up in marriage after the honeymoon ends. I'm Joe Coffey, and together with my wife Karen, we will gather in each episode with some friends just to talk about the real issues that happened in every marriage. I hope you'll join us. Hey, uh, everybody, welcome to this week's episode of after the Vows where we are looking at different aspects of marriage that happens after the wedding. And, uh, the one we're going to talk about today is, uh, the whole job transition and how that can add kind of complexity and conflict to a marriage. And so let me introduce our guests. Uh, first, my co host and lovely wife, Karen. Hello. And then our friends, Josh and Christy Mitchell. Hello. Hello. All right, uh, let me start out by this. How long you been married? 25 years. 25 years, like yesterday. Yeah. Yep. We just. And. And we started dating on the day that we got married. So we've been together for 32. Totally. Well, you started dating that and you got married on the day. And this part of this proposal. Yeah. Same day. Yep. Oh, cool. In the building was. Cause this building was hoping to be done in July, so it was a real risk. But that's what we chose it by. So very cool. All right, so, uh, 25 is a big thing. So what are you doing for your 25th? It's a funny question. I actually, I had a work, uh, engagement on our 25th anniversary and she was a little upset by that, but a good thing. We're talking about work. Yeah, well, she was upset because how could the organization if they knew that it was your 25th? And I had to apologize because I actually made the event on that. Yeah, it's even better that I was like, o, can't you tell them at your anniversary? And he chose it. I scheduled it. That's okay. Yeah. And what's your position at your. I currently hold a position of chief communication officers at a holding company. So. Yeah, Chief communicating officer. Do you wanna try to explain that? Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty poignant with this whole thing. All. All right, good. Well, happy anniversary. Thank you. Thank you. And we did get time, just not on the anniversary. But we went away by ourselves, so it was really fun. And I dropped his phone and like. So that was fun. Okay. It's interesting. Yeah. Good start. All right, tell me, uh, one thing that you remember about your wedding day. Go ahead. Having, um, we did date quite a while before we got married, so it really felt like a huge celebration. So having everybody in the room. Um, that was alongside of our journey. And one thing that we, um, like to say is that our God used our dating relationship maybe the most in our marriage, like our whole. Just because it was a big point of ministry for us. There was a lot of conversations, a lot of questions and a lot of waiting. And so to have a lot of family members in the same room and friends that were a part of the journey and it just was like, just such a joy, joyful day. So, yeah, I think that for me it was just the expectation of what it was going to be. Uh, when we actually watched the video with our kids last night, our wedding videool, uh, that a friend put together, and he captured the rehearsal dinner and the wedding and kind of the after. Um, and I think it brought me back to the emotional of what the rehearsal dinner was. Um, even talking about all of our bridesmaids and our groomsmen and my brother was in it. Our parents were there and just to see even grandparents that are no longer with us, uh, in the room. But it was a room full of people that we really cared about and that were celebrating us at that moment. So that was impactful. I will never forget Josh's. The biggest smile you've ever seen was like, he just smiled so big that whole day. And the kids even noticed it. And the picture, like, wow, your teeth are really white, dad. Because it was a really big. So it was just a lot of joy. Good. That's great. All right, uh, we're gonna be talking about job transitions and, uh, so let's start with, uh, just either the, uh, the worst job you've ever had, the most embarrassing job moment, the, uh, uh, the weirdest job. I mean, Karen, you and I had our first job. Really? Well, we got married when we were in college. And then the summer after, we got our first summer after we got married. We got married in August, but the following summer we were offered a job. No one would believe what we're go going to tell him too, because so outrageous. We worked at a golf course and he was the greenskeeper. I was the only greenskeeper. Wow. Yep. It was like caddy shack. Yep. I was out there. L. Bill Murray. Yep. Yes. Yes. And then I had to do the snack bar and clubhouse. Little. Yeah. Uh, snack bar. And then we had a campground across the road that we were also managers of. And we had people who were staying in hearses and campers. I mean, it was nuts. We were, you know, young, fun. We were 20 when we got married. So this was. I was 21. When we had this sort of responsibility and we lived in the clubhouse. Yeah, it was wild. Yeah, it was interest. How long did that last? Oh, yeah, just, uh, June, July and August. Mhm. And back then, I mean, they paid us $1,000 each per month, which for us back in 1981. 80. Yeah, 81. That was a ton of money for us. And so it was great. But yeah, it was wild. All right, so which question am I answering? Anyone most? Uh, embarrassing. Okay, I'll go. Because I'm really good at putting myself and embarrassing. Really good at laughing at myself. Um, my most recent job, besides here, I was a Division 1 lacrosse coach at the University of Akron. And just getting to that position is a story in itself, but always, you know, knew that it was God opening the door. So I took it lightly. But when I got the job, my very first day was, um, at a Christmas party. So they told me to go to the seventh floor of the stadium. You, everybody will be up. And I went up by myself. Was pretty nervous. I don't get nervous. I was pretty nervous that day. Like, it. Very overwhelmed of a pile of coaches that knew what they were doing. That, um, it was pretty high end, the food and the prizes and whatever. And it was very loud. And I was just like, oh, well, talking to myself and God going, this is gonna great. We're gonna go meet people. And this guy comes up to me and he says, uh, well, this. I don't know what I heard him say. Hey, I'm a silly man. And I didn't know how to respond. And I was like, I'm a silly girl. And he goes, no, I'm the facilities man. And I was so. And I was just like, well, I'm the new lacrosse coach. And I didn't know. And I just walked away. And it's just so funny for me to like, you go up to this, like, I'm a D1 coach. I go and I, yeah, put myself. You are a silly girl. I am a. So I just went with it. I'm like, well, I am a silly girl. And I'm the new lacrosse coach. And luckily he had a great sense of humor. But it was pretty embarrassing. But that's a good one. That's funny. You know, my career path, I feel like I've mapped it out. So I haven't had any bad jobs since we've been married. Uh, but one situation, uh, probably in the last 10 years, I had. We sponsored a golf outing and I invited one of our clients, uh, at A very large organization in Cleveland to one of our cont contactxts to come out and golf with us and thinking that he would be a golfer cause he accepted, uh, he showed up with no golf clubs and in cargo shorts. Oh, goodness, didn'and I asked him, are you planning on golfing? He's like, yeah, but he didn't have any golf clubs. So was a day that was a good day to kind of navigate client relationships with no golf clubs at a golf outing. And was he terrible? Yeah. Oh, wow, wow, wow. Uh, did you figure it out? We figured it out. We had a good time, we laughed about it, and then we were able to laugh about it after. But it was. Did he laugh about it? I think the first question I said is, where's your golf clubs? And he's like, I don't have any. I sold him five years ago and said I didn't really know where to go from there becausee we're at a golf outing. We did get them a set from the pro shop. They had an extra set, so. But least Iew had a golf well, no o. All right, Josh, you mentioned that you had a career path kind of, uh, mapped out. What are the different. Well, for both of you, uh, what are different jobs you had simultaneously, like, you name your job and then whatever your job wasuse. We're going to talk about job transition and how it works in a marriage when both of the spouses are working, and that can sometimes cause some conflict or competition even. Go ahead. Yeah, so I'm, um, classically trained as a graphic designer, so going through school in visual communication design. I always knew the dream was to go to New York City, live in a lawft apartment, ride my bike to work, carriryed up the stairs. I knew that wasn't going to necessarily happen, especially they that Christy and I were on. Um, but I knew that the career path was potentially to own my own agency at someday. So to get to that point, I had to work in a lot of different environments, whether it be small, large agencies, um, freelance, doing all those things. So those were like the stepping blocks. And I think I one of the things I took really seriously in school was a professor said, you need to, uh, reinvent yourself every two years, which means get a new job every two years. And I took that very literally. Uh, and I would almost quit my jobs to the two year mark and go do the next thing, not really knowing where it was gonna lead me. But they were always different types of jobs. So one of the first jobs was in a Web Development Agency. Wait, let me stop you there. Did you know he was gonna do this? Uh, I knew the big dream was to own, but did you know like every two years? No. Now, how did that. I'm, um. I think we'a little bit unique where that didn't really make me nervous. Like, um, I think we're both, um. Where it works is change doesn't scare us because that's when God shows up the most. So I think the risk factor, like I started, um, on Young Life staff and he was full time graphic design. And then I was a teacher and so we were. And then I was a coach. And so we had so many transitions that just. Each time though it wasn't a transition that neither one of us knew about. Lots of communication in it, but I think I was never, I was never anxious. I never felt like, okay, you need to be in the Same job for 36 years'm'I get that. Not that I believe that you leave every two years, especially with me coming up on my two year anniversary here, but I do get the. You don't want to get stagnant and you want to, you want to lean in and you want to trust the next move and trust God and in big ways. So I, uh, was never nervous about it. I believe that our careers simultaneously complemnted each other though. So they were calculated risks. So if I was changing a job, she had something that was secured, um, whether it be health insurance or income. That's true. So all of our transitions where we were communicating back and forth, is this the right time to make a change? A calculated risk? So we complemented each other in our careers. Right. And that is one of the important, I think things we should emphasize is that. And we've done it almost every episode, it seems like communication is what's the key thing and for you guys to both. So you weren't making like decisions in a vacuum and coming home one day and just saying, hey, evidently today was the day and I'm looking for a job. So you'd be thinking about it and then talking about it and everything. So. Well, let's say when you were on staff at Young Life and you were doing what then? I was in an agency, one of my first jobs at that point. Um, and it was local so it was easier. But we were also doing ministry together. She was on staff and I was doing volunteer ministry. So many of our careers also we worked, we were supportive of each other. That's what I was gonna ask, like, how did you support each Other, uh, throughout the different things. We had a neat conversation yesterday about this in preparation. But I feel like, um, work, we are the same people or we try really hard to be the same people everywhere we go. So if Im on the sidelines of lacrosse field, its still Christie, if Im at the dinner table with my kids, if Im with Josh, if hes at ipso, if hes at his new job, like its just life. And I feel like as my partner and I his, like you're just doing life together. So we always tried to make work not separate. And it took a lot of communication because you had a whole day and you come home and you sometime just don't feel like explaining everything that happened at work. Like, there's no how is your day Fins. Like it had to be, you know, we tried really hard to touch base, even a couple times. Many of my assistants would crack up at how many times we did touch base or share stories and, and I didn't want it ever for his, you know, work to be his work and for my work to be my work. We just saw the whole thing as life and ministry. So now Karen, with, uh, the two of us, we started out where, uh, we changed a few things for like the first eight years of our marriage where I was decided I want to be a missionary. And it was like, uh, that was the wrong, I did it the wrong way where I was just saying, hey, I went on my first mission trip for six weeks and came home and said, we're moving to Bolivia. That was a shock. Yeah, yeah. And then I, she said, I don't want. Did you tell him I was pregnant when you came back? And yeah, it was a six week mission trip. She was seven months pregnant when I left. Oh gosh, eight and a half months pregnant with our second when I came back. And that was back when, when I left, I might have called home twice in six weeks. You didn't have any communication. And then I come home and I say, we're moving to Bolivia. And she said, I don't want to go. And I said, this is my response. Well, you do what you want to do. I'm going toa do what God wants me to do. Huh. Wow. Now that is if you're listening and you have ever said that thinking that that's the wrong thing. I want to talk to my dad afterwards. Because she didn't respond well and I was complaining to my dad and just going, I don't know what's wrong with her. My dad was going, joe, you're an idiot. Go home, apologize, you know. So, uh, but after going to Bolivia, coming back, bouncing to North Carolina, then we end up here. And now we've've been at this church for 35 years. So during those transitions, how do you feel? Like, what was it like for you? Yeah, I think, um, transitions are hard for me. I like solid, secure expectations. Um, I like knowing what, um, kind of where my role is. And in a lot of these situations you're talking about, my role was a little fluid. You know, we had the kids. I think both of us, if we're looking at, we were on the same page because we both, both wanted to serve God. And we wanted our lives to be, um, to matter and to impact people. And I think we did that well together. I would say I'm the one who would kind of drag my feet if he would say, hey, you know, every two years. That would be hard to have to adjust to every two years. So, um, I guess I would say I was in your court, I wanted to be with you, but I sometimes would drag my feet a little bit. Well, yeah, that was understandable. I mean, you were sane. Now with the two of you, like, I'm, um, particularly interested because I grew up with an athletic background and coaching seems like it's time consuming. It'not. It's, um, something a lot of times. Some. I remember reading that basketball coaches, ah, struggle because they don't sleep well. Because there are too many games and they don't sleep well after a loss and they don't sleep well after a win. And so when you were in your coaching career, uh, Josh, how did you support her? How did that complicate things? Because the hours are different. The uh, ups and downs have to be different. So, I mean, at some point I thought I loved lacrosse more than her at some points. Cause so how we shared that is I've always been her volunteer in every team that she's ever coached. So from the high school level all the way up to Division 1 level, I've always been on the sidelines helping her in some way. Not because I add value, but it's just because that we share the responsibility in our careers. Now. How would you do? I mean, that's why you had to change every two years. Cause you weren't showing up at your job. Yeah. Well, I hope you're getting to the. It got hard though. It did get. So, yeah, I would say towards the latter part of it, in her last, um, coaching career, it got more difficult because it was at a different level. Um, the expectations were different from the capision. One is travels different. Everything travels different. The other thing too is that we've always um, we've always seen her coaching as an opportunity for our family to be together as well. So we actually from a recruiting standpoint those were vacations for us. So her job allowed us to vacation to different places with our family. Um, and when it got difficult was the point where the kids were too old. Um, I was getting pulled different directions also and it became her thing only and was a. And that was in the last five years. But I would also say when you were talking yesterday, you did not paint this my coaching years as a good thing for exactly what you just said. Me not being able to turn my brain off and you don't realize the emotional drain of balancing 42 adolescent females emotions and then coming home and trying to be a mom and a wife. Like I don't think I ever really. I thought I turned it off. Um, but in conversations we've. Well and I had to realize that a lot of it's selfishness. Selfishness of wanting her as my wife. But she's already emotionally drained. Sure from the team, from our kids even uh, not and as a bad thing. But so a lot of the strain on even our relationship was stemmed a lot of from selfishness of what I wanted and not realizing, oh, she just doesn't care about me. Yeah, well, I mean that'be good. We'll dig into that a little bit more. But I think it's amazing though the way that you looked at it, um, like taking family vacations and blending that in with her work and uh, that's a great way to support each other, uh, coaching. I think um, I'm glad you were a coach just because that is such a um, a time a mind consuming thing. Like I think they've being a player, uh, you go home after practice and you're done. Like I don't remember thinking, uh, what's gonna be like. I didn't have to worry about what practice wasnna look like the next day. I didn't have to worry about who we were playing or anything. I was told all that. The coach goes home and has to figure all that out. I just think, oh man. So yeah, I think the best coaches would probably need to be single. Well, it's funny, I mean even going to the different um recruiting events, Christy always viewed it as an opportunity for our relationship, for our family's relationship and even the other coaches. So other coaches, many uh, of them dreaded the recruiting trips where and Think Christie would show up and they'd be like, why? Why do you like this so much? And they're like, well, my family's right there. Right? Um. And they're like, oh, I left my family for a week or I'm going on two weeks without seeing them. She's like, why? But so she always viewed, like, even a career in the field, that's really daunting and demanding as an opportunity for our family. Okay, so when did it get hard? How did it get hard? How did you resolve the difficulty? Uh, it snuck up on me because it was actually to back up even more. I only went into college coaching because he wanted to start a business. And I, um, had an opportunity to coach a Division 2. I didn't necessarily want to. I've tried to hang up the whistle so many times, and God just opened up a door that I couldn't deny. And so even getting into college coaching, I wasn't actually seeking it. I love relationships. I love lacrosse. He needed insurance so that he could start his new business. So that's how he even got into college coaching. And then it just kept building and building. And when I got to Akron, which was a great. Which, by the way, we'd stop there too, just because that's another good thing. Just to point out is that your transition was a way of you doing your part for the family. When he says, we need health insurance 100% and you're saying, okay, I will mean that's part of every episode too, where we always talk about communication, always talk about finding ways to serve each other, uh, instead of being selfish in, you know, the big thing about any kind of job transition is it's got toa be a way to serve the good of the entire family. So, okay, so you take the job. So that's how I did not. I genuinely did not want to be full time anything. Well, it was far away also. I mean, there was risk in her actually even doing that. It was. I mean, I had little kids. If I wanted to go see a recruit, I had to get a babysitter for four hours because it took me almost an hour to get there, spendt an hour with recruit, like, so there was a lot of balancing. Um, but being the head coach, you could at least make your schedule, you know, where it kind of does work. But I had Saturdays and Sundays a lot, just because then he could be home with the kids. So it wasn't that I wanted to work Sundays, but it was then I could take a day, you know, from Monday to Friday Where I didn't have to get the kids to be around someone else. So. But I did love it at the same time and had great opportunities and great travel and when I got the opportunity of Akron, that opened so many doors that I mean by no mistake was God's hand as well. Um, so I just. Towards the end though, when you say how did I know? I mean, it was. Anybody close to me knew that it was. I was, I was getting empty. Like I was so full go and still full weekends and trying to balance, you know, still wanting family to never feel it. Um, but trying to build a program, a brand new program and recruit kids from all over the country. Like there was. It got, it got very emotional too because again, like I said, it's 42 adolescent girls and um, also division one expectations andils and all the things. I just felt I, uh, was going to talk to him one day and I was like scared to say, I think I'm done. Because who walks away from a division I coaching job? And before I even said it, he said, it's time to hang up the whistle. And I was like. Because I was like, I need to talk to you. And didn't even say what it was, but he felt it like it was, um. The kids were old, they had their own schedules. It started being mom'schedule versus everybody else's schedule. He said he did volunteer and he did. But then the more he got, you know, a higher role in his jobs, the harder it was. So. And when we were younger, it was great, easy, we could do it. But then it just started being. I, uh, had to choose whether, you know, I said what I loved about our jobs is that our life was our jobs. But it started feeling like my life was different than his life and the kids life. So that's when we. Josh, what were the signs that you saw, uh, when it didn't become part of our rhythms? So I think both of our careers, it was integrated into our rhythms of our family. And when it became Christie's thing or Josh's thing, um, for long periods of time, like obviously that happensaily a day or two a week. But when you go a week, when we don't see Christie or long weekends, um, and we can't travel with her, like those were the signs that we were not drifting apart relationship, but time. Like in the time commitments because it was easier for the kids because they were older, they could be self sufficient. So it was easier to be away. But we were recognizing that it was. But I didn't want to miss their games. But I think it's always a mistaken. People think that, uh, you can have quality time without quantity time, because most of the time you need quantity in order to create quality. So I think it's hard to go, oh, hey, we have an hour. Let. Let's really connect, right? So you can't always schedule that. So you saw those that happening. You were feeling that happening. Um, was it a sacrifice? I mean, yeah. What. How did you. I mean, we were walking away when we decided and we had some friends pray around us. And again, everybody that knew me, there's like a core of six to eight that knew that, you know, before I told anybody that this was what we were going to do, um, we were sacrificing a Division 1 position that many people dream about pay. Because I was about to say, well, this is going to cut off what I make. And we were only going to have to run by what you make. Kids, um, were going to private school that we didnt want to walk away from. We were nervous about that as well. Um, they would have got full tuition at the University of Akron as well if I stayed there full time. So it was a, it was a big choice of finance. Cannot be number one right now. Who I'm created to be in what we want our family to end up being like, had to be first. So we knew, but we also, you know, were in. It was scary and it was like, I, you know, that's when you cling the most, pray the most. I was so scared to make that step. But it's also when you see God show up the most. So. But part of the thing, I mean, we've talked about it on, uh, uh, other episodes too, is that couples need to try to figure out what their values are. Right. Uh, and then make decisions based on what the values are not, uh, on something that is not, uh, as big a priority. So finances seem like a huge thing, but then if that's not contributing to the highest value, then you have to go, okay, well, then we will sacrifice other things to maintain the highest value. So, guys did a great job of trying to talk through that. Obviously you asked the question also the signs. And it wasn't just an emotional sign or times. There was physical signs with Christie so that we don't need to get all into that. But, um, I mean, the writing was on the wall, right? It wasn't just one little thing or a couple little things. There were some major things that were affecting her physically, mentally, all of that. So now in that process, how did you decide, both of you decide that it was her job that was doing that and not that you should try to make an adjustment with your jobuse. I know that that could be a problem with couples where they'll say, I, but I love my job. And just because my job is super stressful, it just means I need more help. Right. So, I mean, if we wanna get into a lot of the details of. So this is where we complimenentd each other. Um, ah, I was a partner in my own business. Um, we actually, just prior to that, we sold the business. So that allowed freedom and what we were doing and what she was doing at the same time. So again, there's a compliment of saying, hey, she could actually end her career what she's doing and we'd be okay. Right. Um, so there wasn't anything from me pulling in my career a different direction that was more demanding. And there was a compliment in that. It's another calculated risk. Like, we knew it was gonna be a risk, but it was an okay time for it to be a risk. So it was almost like a gift for it. And there's. I can't say we've never put our identity in our careers, but we try not to do that. Um, and that was probably one of the hardest things, I think, watching Christy go through, because I would never say that her identity was in her career, but I mean, if I'm honest, I would like saying, hey, my wife's a division I coach. Like, that's a pretty cool thing to say. Um, and we were giving up on that, but that we identified that that's not why she was doing it. And what a great conversation for our family, for our kids who were all teenagers and mom was a Division 1 coach. And they even, like, nobody argued. They were like, glad that I was stepping away from it. But also that communication of what do people call you now? Like, because you. You've been coach forever. Like, what, uh, like what do you. So that was. That'easy. They call you silly girl. Silly girl. So great. Willick that Very true. And will stick. So. But that communication to our kids of like, that is not like, I'NOT a coach. Dad is not a marketer. He's not a designer. We are followers of Jesus, and this is the move that is going to make that best for our family. Yeah, that'I. Uh, mean, that's a huge. That can't be overstated. That, uh, what helps with any marriage and transition is to make sure that your identity is not in what you do, which is always the struggle. I go back to, you know, the reason that the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments, I think, is that God was trying to teach a group of slaves, it's not what you do, it's who you are. It's not what you do. It's, you know, it's so you take a day, don't do any work. Right. And that's trying to teach identity. So, uh, as we close it out, what's, uh, advice that you'd give a couple starting out that would say, yeah, we're both going to have careers and this is what we want. How would you tell them to try to navigate what's coming since you guys are now 25 years into navigating those waters? Yeah. I mean, one thing I want to identify is I know that Christian and I's relationship is different than a lot of relationships. We've known each other for so long and in our careers we've been fans of each other. But if I wasn big right there, and if I wasnna give advice to anyone is be a raving fan of your spouse and what they're doing and be a part of it. Um, don't separate from that. So any career that I've had or any career that Chrissy's had, we've both been fans of that and been a part of it. Not separate, like, this is your job. This is my job. But being really excited about each of those positions and investing. Like, she's invested in all of my careers and I've invested in the things that she's been doing. So that'd be my advice, is invest in each other's careers. Um, and Christie said it before, we don't look at work as a segment of our life or a separate, like, work life balance. It seems like if you say work life balance, work is different than life. It's all one thing. Right. Um, so be complimentary of that for each other. Good. Yeah. I would say the identity, um, that we were just talking about, but that comes with holding. If you said the young married that are mapping out their next 25 years is to hold it loosely and hold it open. Because if you have your, you know, we never ended up in New York and, um, which I thought was going to be Colorado, not New York, but we never ended up there. But just to. The more you hold like this, like, you know, you're going to be guided in some crazy adventures, but you've got to make sure that it's not so tight that you're holding ono that future. So. And a big part of that for is just identity. Like to know that your identity is not in this plan that I have in my mind, but it's who I am in Christ. And then how is he going to use that in the workplace? Great. Thanks so much for, uh, joining us for this discussion of transitions and jobs and all of that. You guys did great. So thanks for having us. Thanks. Thanks for joining us for this episode of After the Vows. If this hit close to home and you want to know what your next step could be, your next step could be just a conversation. We always think that it's good for you to connect with somebody who might have a little more experience, a little more insight. Uh, so we've set up marriage coaches, and there's no curriculum or anything, but. And there's no long term commitment. It could be just one meeting. Could be a couple of meetings. Uh, but you can sign up for that. Uh, that would be great. Another possibilities if you want to grow spiritually or through, uh, your marriage, there are other episodes of this podcast or other podcasts that you can access through our YouTube channel or a church app, but, uh, you're welcome to access all of those. Uh, but we're so glad you joined us for this episode.