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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley:
Hi, friends. Thanks so much for joining us for another episode of The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast, where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host, Madi Vincent. Hey, Mads.
Madi:
Hi, Kaley. Wow. We just finished a conversation with our friend and theological expert Dr. Joel Muddamalle. He's going to share about church. And we did not hold back. We asked questions about church hurt, whether you have to attend church to be a Christian, and so much more!
Kaley:
Yeah.
Madi:
I can't wait to get into it.
Kaley:
It's a good conversation.
Madi:
And as you guys are listening to our conversation with Joel, you may be wondering: What do I do with this information? And I want to remind you about a free listener guide you can download in the show notes for today's episode, titled “Now What? A Guide To Process and Apply Biblical Messages.” This free guide will help you reflect on what scripture says about the message you heard, in order to see what challenges, convicts and encourages you. And you'll learn simple ways to go deeper on research on the topic that you heard about, in order to gain a better understanding on the topic as a whole.
Kaley:
It honestly is one of my favorite resources that we have at Proverbs because you can apply it to anything that you hear or learn from us. It's great. But, guys, if you haven't already, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts. Doing so helps us reach even more listeners — and ultimately that's the goal, to help women around the world get connected to God's Word so they can know the Truth and live the Truth because it really does change everything.
All right, friends, that's enough from me and Mads. Let's go hear from our friend Joel. All right, friends, we are here with Dr. Joel Muddamalle, our Director of Theological Research. Joel, how are you?
Joel:
[Joking:] I'm doing so much better, Kales, because you are wearing a Chicago Bulls sweatshirt.
Kaley:
I wasn't going to bring it up, but I did wear it —
Joel:
I'm going to bring it up.
Kaley:
— to boost your confidence today as we approach our topic.
Joel:
My people know me, so I'm so grateful. Mads, I'm so happy you're here too.
Madi:
Joel, you're here today because Kaley and I wanted to talk to you, an expert, about some questions that we had about the Church.
Kaley:
Yeah.
Madi:
Because … Can I be honest with you for a minute, Joel?
Joel:
I hope so.
Madi:
I have gone to church my whole life. And sometimes when people ask me questions about the Church, I don't know sometimes why I do what I do. I just do it because that's what I've always done. And just working at Proverbs 31 and interacting with so many people on social media, I've realized there are so many people coming from so many different backgrounds when it comes to church. Some people are like me and have grown up in a small church. They went every Sunday, they went to youth group every Wednesday night, they've done the church thing thoroughly. And then you have other people who are maybe just starting to go to church for the first time in their adult lives. And they don't really know a whole lot about church. Like, why do we go to church? Is it biblically mandated?
Kaley:
Yeah.
Madi:
And so when
Kaley and I were talking about this podcast, I thought it was so great because I think this is going to be so helpful for everybody, no matter where you fall on the spectrum of your church attendance, and I'm so excited to be here.
Kaley:
Yeah. I'm excited to hear this conversation, too, but I think it's important, Madi and Joel, that before we even get into the questions we have, we really give Joel an opportunity to set the stage for this: What is the Church, and what's the history of the Church? Because if we were to just jump straight into getting you to answer these questions without giving a context … [Without] setting the stage and leveling the playing field, I think that we would be doing our listeners and ourselves a big disservice. And so, Joel, if you would, take a moment and just help us understand. What is the history of the Church? What foundational things do we really need to know about? And how is "the Church" different from “church”?
Joel:
Yeah.
Kaley:
So can you dive into that first for us?
Joel:
Yeah, that's so good. So I think the first thing that's super helpful is when we look at the actual words for “church” that are used in the Old Testament and the New Testament. I want to start here, and then what I want to do is I want us to see that the idea of the Church that we see in the New Testament is not novel, and it is not new. Sometimes we think, Oh, the Church just shows up in the New Testament. And if you've been, like Madi, in church for a really long time, you probably even know the passages of Scripture to go to, and you could point out the book of Acts. And we'll do that. But I want to first start by seeing some connections of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Here's the first thing with our words: In Hebrew, the words for “synagogue,” knesset, and the word for “church,” kneysiyah, are virtually synonymous. They're very similar. Now, here's where things get interesting. In Greek, in the New Testament, the word [is] ekklesia, and it means “assembly.” If you were to take a Greek word and associate it with those Hebrew terms, we're talking about the very same [thing]. So what that's showing is actually a continuity: Both “synagogue” and “church” in Hebrew and the word “church,” ekklesia, in Greek, all mean the gathered assembly. It means the gathered assembly.
And so the question is: Who does the gathering? Who brings these people together? Why do they come together? What keeps them together? And what are they supposed to do as a result of this togetherness? We're going to get into all of that. But let me start in Eden, which is our favorite place to start all conversations when it comes to theology.
Kaley:
Yes, it is.
Joel:
I'm going to do this really quickly, y'all. Adam and Eve are created as viceregents, co-heirs. They are a royal couple, kings and queens, a king and queen in Eden. And God creates them with a purpose and with a destiny and with dignity, and all these things are really good. And so I want to just trace this out: When Adam and Eve, after the fall, leave and are sent out — they're banished out of Eden — their responsibility as representatives of God is not destroyed. It's not diminished. There's a consequence for their sin, but the expectation for them to go out into the world and to image God, and to image His goodness and to be representatives of the family of God, is still intact. Because remember — what's the responsibility in Eden? To take the goodness of Eden and spread it out into the ends of the earth.
And so then we can just jump to the highlight reel of Old Testament figures. In Genesis 12, you've got Abraham. And then you've got the Abrahamic covenant, Genesis 12, 15 and 17, where the idea is that God is going to pick a family, and out of that family, all the nations of the world are going to be blessed. Then you have Israel that comes into existence in the context first of Egypt and then in exile. And then as they wander the wilderness … Well, Israel, before they even become a formal nation, was a group of people who were brought together. They were held together by God, by His presence, and they had a responsibility to be a witness of God's family to the nations surrounding them. The kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament — look at 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles — they have a purpose. They form a kingdom with an intent and an aim not to be hidden but to be a visible witness of Yahweh, of God, and how kind He is to the nations.
That's why God is actually really clear in the Ten Commandments, and also in the Mosaic law, that there's a path for foreigners, for people on the outside, to actually come in to the family of God. The minor prophets, Joel and Amos and all these guys, these minor prophets, anticipated a day where the nations of the world are going to come back in to the family of God. This echoes the Abrahamic covenant.
And then we get to the very first place that we find an image, a picture, and the actual formation of the Church. So if you've got your Bibles, it's in Acts 2. And in Acts 2, we're weeks after the resurrection, in a time when Jesus had ascended into heaven and the disciples were waiting. They were waiting for the promised Holy Spirit who was going to come and empower them. And [after He comes,] all of a sudden, Peter gets up and he gives this epic speech, this epic sermon.
Now, we could go through all the details of the sermon, but I'll just give you the highlight reel of that. It is a retelling of the story of Israel. It's a retelling of the Old Testament. And then it's really interesting … I've got my Bible out here, and if you look at Acts 2, and then you take a look at the details here in verse 8, it says, "How is it that each of us can hear them" — talking about Peter and all the disciples — "in our own native language?" (CSB). And there's a list of nations: Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamians, Judaeans, Cappadocians, Pontus, Asia. (Acts 2:9-11) Well, here's an interesting thing: All of these nations are the exact list of the Table of Nations of Genesis 10, which connects us to Chapters 11 and 12, which contain the Abrahamic promise. And then it says [in Acts] they heard the gospel in their own languages, and there were converts. People came to know Jesus as a result of hearing the gospel in their own native tongues.
Well, what happens after Acts 2? All of these people — and this is important — had gathered because they were there for the festival of [Pentecost]. So they're from all the nations, they gather together, they hear the message of the gospel. After they hear it, what do they do? Do they stay in Jerusalem? Nah, they got to go back home. So think about this— that the very first time that we have the Church come together and formed, we've got people who had gathered together who represented the nations of the world. And then they took that message back to their local contexts, back to their local homes, back to their nations and their cities that they found themselves in. And then probably the linchpin verses [to answer the question,] What is the Church, and where do we have to start when we're talking about the Church in terms of how we should conceptualize and think about the Church today? … It’s in Acts 2 starting in verse 42.
It says "they," so it's these new converts, these people who have made an allegiance to Jesus the Messiah: "They devoted themselves …" (v. 42, CSB). And that word “devoted” in Greek means “to give yourself over to someone or something.” It's to give an allegiance to someone. This isn't just like, "Oh, I like Starbucks, and I'd like some coffee." This is like, "I need Starbucks." And if you're in that place, you probably need a little bit of help. That is me. [Laughs.] But this is intense. This is a deep devotion. Notice what they give themselves to: “the apostles' teaching, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer” (v. 42, CSB). So there's a list of four [things]. I know we're going to get back to this. And then it says this in verse 43: "Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and signs were being performed through the apostles" (CSB).
And then in verse 44, "Now all the believers" (it doesn't say “some,” it doesn't say “a small group,” it doesn't say “only the ones that come from this social background or economic situation or ethnic background”) “were together and held all things in common" (CSB). How? "They sold their possessions and property and distributed the proceeds to all, as any had need. Every day they devoted" — there's that word again — "themselves to meeting together in the temple and broke bread from house to house" (vv. 45-46a, CSB). So notice you have the two expressions there: You've got the temple, which gives us that Old Testament connection. And then you've got almost this image and picture of what the future is going to look like for this brand-new Church.
They break bread from house to house. They ate their food. I love these verses: "They ate their food with joyful and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people" (vv. 46b-47a, CSB). And every day, notice who does the adding: "The Lord added to their number those who were being saved" (v. 47b, CSB). This is the origin story of the Church. This is our story of the Church. This is the beauty of what it means to be the family of God.
Kaley:
Wow. Because I grew up in the Church — and I'm not blaming this on my upbringing; I think it's because I never really asked the question — I always assumed that the Church was started after Acts 2. And I think that that's where our modern-day church was started. But it's interesting to hear you tie it all the way back to Eden. I think before we get into our questions, though, I do have questions about that. Why did you bring it back to Eden if the Church started in Acts 2?
Joel:
Yeah, it’s because I think one of the things that we want to be careful of is that we don't strip the story of God's people, the rich story of God's people, from their history. And so if we start our understanding of the Church in Acts 2, then we actually begin to lose ... Notice what is says they devoted themselves to: They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to the Scriptures. Well, what is the apostles' teaching in the Scriptures? It's the Old Testament. It's the Old Testament as they understood it in light of how Jesus brought a fullness to it. And we're going to look at some other passages too. Let me get there. I'm looking at my notes …
First Peter 2:9. This is what Peter says: "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood …" (CSB). Well, where does the priesthood come from? That's Old Testament language. [Peter also says] "a holy nation.” Where does that come from? Old Testament. We talked about Israel in the wilderness wandering and as a kingdom. "A people for his possession …" Well, where does the “possession” language come from? Adam and Eve were His possessions. "… So that you may proclaim the praises of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9, CSB).
If you're an Israelite and you're hearing this, and you've got a couple gentiles next to you, and they're kind of clueless … It's like if I were to say “Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman,” some of you all might be clueless. But the rest of you all know that Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were the key to winning MJ's championships. So me, as a good friend, I'm going to say, "Hey, Kales, just to let you know, Dennis Rodman was a savant. They won because he was able to get all of these rebounds. It's unbelievable." I'm filling you in on these details. So these Israelites are like, "Oh, my gentile friend, you probably don't know this, but let me just help you out. When it says 'out of darkness into marvelous light,’ yo, that's a picture of Egypt. Our people were in Egypt and we were in darkness, and there was this brilliant light, a pillar of light that actually led us out and led us through the Red Sea and led us into the wilderness and through the wilderness. And so your story as a gentile is actually wrapped up and knit into my story."
And [1 Peter 2:10] says this: "Once you were not a people …" Again, the Israelites would've understood this. Who they were in Egypt were slaves. They were not a people. Well, who makes them a people? God makes them a people and says this: “… but now you are God's people; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy" (CSB). So again, it's just one of those things that fills out our faith and forms our understanding that this is not … Like I said earlier, it's not new, it's not novel. It's not something that Peter just makes up or the followers of Jesus, the disciples, just think of: "Hey, we need a new plan here. Huh? How do we do this thing?" They're like, "Oh, wait, I can actually look at the Scriptures and I can collect all of the dots that are there. I can connect the dots because I've got Jesus, who is the One who connects everything. And now I have the responsibility to communicate this clear picture of what it means to be God's family." And it would be kind of a disaster to start with the beauty of the family and miss the tension that got us to the beauty.
Kaley:
Yeah. Well, that's super helpful because I think no matter what your background is, without this context, it can be easy to question, Well, is church important? Why should I go? And church should be something welcoming and approachable for people, especially people who are walking in who don't know anything about it. But at the same time, for those of us who do know about it, it is our responsibility to understand the context so that there is a deep “why” behind what we do.
Joel:
Yeah.
Kaley:
So thank you for setting the tone there. But this I think is a good lead-in to the next question that I have. So when I'm looking for a church, or whenever I want to consider a church, how do I know what makes a “good church,” and what does the Bible say about that? Are there safeguards to know whenever I'm making the decision to join a church?
Joel:
So I would start with this. There's a great, great book by a guy named Gavin Ortlund. Gavin wrote a book on theological triage. It's basically knowing what doctrines that we ought not compromise. This is what makes a Christian a Christian. So I kind of want to take that model and that framework and I want to apply it to church, so we can call this “church triage.”
Kaley:
That's great.
Joel:
And so I want to start again back at Acts 2 because it's like … What is it that takes a group of people (who have every reason to have everything against each other and to stay divided), forms them together as a family, and sustains them through persecution? And they use familial, intimate language. The word philadelphia in Greek is what Paul uses to describe the brothers and sisters in Christ. But it was almost exclusively used to talk about blood relatives.
Kaley:
Wow.
Joel:
I wouldn't just be like, "Oh, Kales is my philadelphia, my sister." You'd be like, "Well, Joel, you're Indian. She's white. I'm not sure how that works out." And Paul would be like, "Actually, it's the blood of Jesus."
Kaley:
That's great.
Joel:
The blood of Jesus actually knits us together, and we are connected by blood in that sense. And so it's this rich thing. So how is that possible? Well, Acts 2, those verses that we looked at, really gives us all the details that we need. I want to go back to those four things, and those four things are super important. And they start in verse 42. It says they devoted themselves to — here's the first one — "the apostles' teaching." So this is the Scriptures. "To the fellowship," which is gathering together. "To the breaking of bread," which is the idea of communion and eating. I'm going to add a little bit in here. I think this also has in mind … fun.
Madi:
Oh, I love that.
Kaley:
Yeah.
Joel:
This has in mind joy, like what happens around dinner tables. What happens when you eat and barbecue, when you tailgate with your friends. You're building lifelong memories. See, this is one of the challenges that we have: We think of breaking bread and we instantly think about Communion, the way that we have now done Communion. There's a lot of reasons for the way that we do Communion now. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it that way. But what we have today is not the same picture of what it would've looked like in the ancient Church. For them, they're having full meals. But again, there's some pragmatics around this. It was a house [church], a family where there were 10 or 15 people.
In fact, this became an issue because then at some point in time, classism got in the way, and then only the rich people were able to eat all the good food. (1 Corinthians 11) So there are some issues that even came up with this. But then how did they handle those issues? You go back to the teaching, to the Scriptures. What do the Scriptures say? Well, there's no classism in the Kingdom of God. And so if it means that I can't eat everything I want to eat because I want to make sure my brothers and sisters have food, that sacrifice of self is actually a beautiful thing. These are the marks of what it means to be in a church, to be a part of the family of God. So the breaking of bread … and “they devoted themselves to … prayer” (Acts 2:42, CSB), to communing with God.
And so I would say those are the very first [things that] kind of make the Church, and what should you look for in a church. This is primary. This is doctrine. It's these four things. If you don't have [teaching that] Jesus is the Son of God, that He rose from the dead, that He conquered death through death … If you don't believe that God's Word is God-breathed, and it is an authority for us … If you don't believe that God is three [in one], that God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit ... If you don't have these core convictions — if the church isn't teaching these things, it doesn't believe these things — that's an indication that what you have is not a church. I'm going to say something here, and I want to be delicate, but I also feel like it's important. This is how we know the difference between a church and a cult.
Madi:
OK.
Joel:
This is how we know the difference between what is true and what is heresy. We have to just know … If somebody comes up to you and is like, "Hey, I've got this great new place and it's a great gathering of people, and we open up the Bible and we read it."
And you're like, "Oh, that's really interesting. That's awesome. Well, tell me more about it. What do you believe in?"
"We believe in this guy named Jesus."
And it's like, "Oh, that's awesome."
"And we believe that Jesus was a prophet."
And you're like, "Oof, wait a minute. Talk to me more about that."
"Well, we believe that Jesus was a son of God, but He wasn't the Son of God. And He actually didn't rise again from the dead. That's just a misunderstanding of what took place at the tomb."
You're like, "Wait a minute ..."
So notice this: You could have Communion, you could have Scriptures, you could have fellowship, you could have a lot of things that seem to check off. [It might seem like] this is the Church. And then you get to something core and crucial, like: Is Jesus the Messiah? Is He God? And if they say, "Well, He's not God," then what you have is not the Church.
And this is the tactic of the enemy. The tactic of the enemy isn't to be like ... Again, this is kind of funny, but it's like, I had this picture as a kid that the devil is in a red jumpsuit with a pitchfork. Y'all, that's not the biblical picture of the enemy. He’s an angel of light, who masquerades as light, who gives you partial truth, just enough truth to buy into the fabrication, which is the lie.
And so that's the first thing. And again, I want to say this with kindness. And this isn't something that you should just jump at and start accusing places. Take a step back and really look at what they believe. Look at their statement of faith. Ask some really good questions about this. And so that is the very first thing when you're looking for a church: Just make sure it is the Church of Jesus, of the Scriptures, of Genesis through Revelation. Not a fabrication of a representation of Jesus made in our own likeness and in our own image.
Madi:
So I just want to repeat the four things. You've got Scripture.
Joel:
Mm-hmm.
Madi:
Fellowship.
Joel:
Mm-hmm.
Madi:
Communion.
Joel:
Mm-hmm.
Madi:
And what was the fourth one?
Kaley:
Gathering.
Joel:
We've got prayer.
Madi:
Prayer.
Kaley:
Prayer.
Madi:
Prayer.
Joel:
Prayer. And prayer is vital. So just really quick … I know, you guys are always like, "Joel …" [Laughs.] But prayer in the ancient world was something people would do to beg for the attention of the gods. You would do wild and wack acts like cutting yourself. This is the Baal story. (1 Kings 18:28-29) You would do all kinds of weird stuff in order to just hope that you can catch a glimpse of the gods. That is not the picture of prayer for the believer [in Christ]. Prayer for the believer is direct access to an attentive and loving and hearing God.
I love how Exodus talks about how God ... This isn't just the picture of God of the New Testament. This is God as God. When the people of Israel were crying out (I think this is Exodus 4, might be Chapter 3), Scripture says that God saw their pain, God heard them, and God was going to act on behalf of them. This is a God who is attentive. He did not create the world and bounce, like, "Good luck, y'all, I'm going to come back later." He’s a God who loves and is part of [His people]. And so that's why prayer is an important part of it. It's direct access to the One we love. It's communion with them, with Him.
Madi:
Yeah. I love all these things that you're saying, Joel. And my question now is, as you look at what we've created to be the modern Church, what does the Bible say about church attendance, and what does my involvement have to be? To be a Christian, do I need to volunteer in kids' ministry? Do I need to be up on the stage singing? Nobody wants me to sing … [laughs.] But is that what's required of me? I understand this big-picture concept of what you're saying about the Church, but as we get into what is the Church now, in the modern day, what does my involvement have to look like, and what is it biblically mandated from?
Joel:
OK, so you just said something that I think is super interesting. You made a joke. You're like, "For me to sing, nobody wants me to sing," right?
Madi:
Yeah.
Joel:
Well, where does that come from? Why would you say that?
Madi:
The Lord did not gift me with the voice of an angel? I don't know.
Joel:
So you're getting to my point. Isn't it so fascinating that we've attached a type of excellence or a prerequisite of excellence to this type of singing? So here's the question. You're in Ethiopia and you're the only representative of Jesus in this area. And there are these people who gather around, like, "Hey, we love Jesus too." And it's like, "You're the one, Mads. You’ve got to sing." Do you not sing?
Madi:
I sing. Not well, not on tune.
Kaley:
You make a joyful noise unto the Lord?
Madi:
I make a joyful noise to the Lord.
Joel:
And I'm not saying, “Don't have excellence.” That's not what I'm saying. But I'm just saying: Isn't it interesting that even in the way that that question was framed, we even had this idea that, Well, the ones who sing are the ones who are good at singing. They’ve got to look this way. They’ve got to act this way. They’ve got to do this. And so this gets into that church triage that I want to get into a little bit here.
You've got the first [tier of triage], which is primary doctrine. You've got the second one, which consists of open-handed convictions, usually in terms of doctrine. And then you've got the third, tertiary, which are preferences associated with our comfort. I'll get back to that. But to your question, I think gathering is a really important question today. What do we do with this? I'm going to always try to frame some stuff. Often we want the Bible to give us policies: A + B = C. It would just make life so much easier.
Madi:
I would love that.
Joel:
You would love that, right? And the biblical authors, directed by the divine hand of God, refused to do that for us. Almost the majority of Scripture is not that.
Madi:
It's maddening.
Joel:
It's maddening, right? But I want us to see that is for our good, not something that is meant to make us mad. And here's why. Because if A + B = C all the time, it would leave no room for culture, context, growth, history. We would just be robotic in that sense. Instead, what we have, more often than not, are principles. And these principles have to be applied through wisdom, through the witness of the Church, through the historic past. It's like, Madi, you've been at theology study days, and so have you, Kaley. You want to know how to panic [me]? Come up and be like, "Joel, I think I found something brand-new in Scripture." I'll be like, “Woah …” New theology is typically heresy. So we want to be aware of that.
Now, I want to look at a passage, Hebrews 10:24-25, and I'm going to give you the principle here. Don't try to come at me with, "Joel, what are you trying to say?" I'm going to tell you exactly what the Scriptures say. Hebrews 10:24-25: "And let us consider one another in order to" — notice the word —"provoke love and good works ..." That feels a little bit like Acts 2, doesn't it? [Verse 25:]"not neglecting to gather together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day approaching" (CSB, emphasis added). That word “gathering together” is actually a Greek word that's actually a super rare word. It's basically “synagogue,” a type of word that is used for “synagogue.” And it's also used [in the context of] an end-times kind of future gathering when God's people gather together. But here why it's being used — again, it's to connect the Old Testament to the New Testament reality. But it's also this … And this is where I'm going to, I guess, put myself out there a little bit. It has in mind embodied people. It has in mind people who are physically together.
And here's what the author of Hebrews is cautioning. He says, "Some have got into the habit of not doing this." So that’s the reason why he's saying, “Don't forget to gather together.” And the gathering is not disembodied — it's not by telephone, it's not a group Zoom call, but the gathering is body to body, flesh to flesh. It's in a room together. Why is this so important? Because some people have stopped doing that. Notice what the author of Hebrews doesn't do. He doesn't say “once a week.” He doesn't say “for three hours each time that you gather.” He gives us this principle.
And here's what the principle is: The principle is that it is good for the people of God to gather together physically, to remember Jesus, to study the Scriptures, to pray, to eat together, to laugh together, to do all those things. Because — and this is why that word here in Hebrews is so important — this is a foretaste of what we will experience when Eden comes back, when we are in the new heavens, the new earth. The new heavens and the new earth are not disembodied. That means there's physicality to it. It is a return to an Edenic-like state, an Eden-like presence.
And so in that sense, it's like, What should we do? I think we should try to figure out how best we can honor this principle while still keeping in mind the social situation that we're in, the things that are placed upon us that we can't do, but also being very careful that we don't allow that to then become the new standard. And then we get into this Hebrews situation where the author is here is like, "Listen, y'all have not gathered together for a real long time ... and in fact, that has become your norm. Not gathering is your norm." And what he's saying here is, "Nah, you should gather together and do all these things together." So again — principle, not a policy.
Madi:
I really like what you're saying.
Kaley:
Me too.
Madi:
To give some context of my life, my mom passed away from breast cancer eight years ago. And before she passed away, she was sick for a very long time, six years doing chemo, in and out of the hospital, things like that. And I love this principle because in that period of our life, attending church in the traditional way was not possible. It wasn't safe for my mom to go to church on a Sunday morning in a large crowd. It wasn't possible for her to be able to stand during worship because she didn't feel good.
And I think what you're saying is freeing in a sense because church doesn't have to look like that Sunday-morning kind of “check that off your list.” What you're saying is there's this principle of embodiment. And so when my mom was so sick and wasn't able to attend a traditional church service, we were still very actively part of the Church because there was an embodiment of fellow church members coming to our house and bringing us dinner, people coming to our home and praying over my mom, and people filling up an iPod with worship songs that she could put in her ears during chemotherapy.
And I think what you're saying is so awesome because these principles that the Bible lays out for us apply to us in all these different seasons of our lives. They can be molded and changed to let the Church move with us in these different circumstances that we go into. And I think if you are able and in a season where it makes sense for you to be able to go to church every Sunday morning at 9 a.m., and then every Sunday morning at 10 a.m. you serve in the children's ministry, that is 100% what you should do and you can do. But if that isn't where you are at right now, I think that what you're teaching, Joel, opens up this world of what the Church body looks like for me. And it kind of gets me fired up. I'm ready to go run a marathon!
And I also love, as you explain how this connects to the Old Testament, how it makes me feel connected to God in a [new] way. I don't know if I ever really have thought of church in that way. This is something that God designed from the beginning of time, not just in Acts 2. And when I participate in God's design, I'm participating in what He envisioned for the world.
I don't know if that's heresy or anything. [Laughs.]
Joel:
No, that's so good.
Madi:
But I just think that what you're saying is a very new outlook of church. And I think for a lot of people listening, it's going to change how they even view going to church on Sunday morning, because it's not just something they have to do to check off their list, but it's this thing that we get to participate in, God's design. And that's so awesome.
Joel:
And just really quick on that, I think, about your mom, Mads … You and I have talked often about this. But you guys were part of a local church. You were members of a local church. There's that faithfulness of year over year being there. And then you had this circumstance, this situation that's totally outside of your control. One of the things about the church that I think is so important is that the Church is an outpost of the real presence and power of the Kingdom of God on earth today. So your mom, when she was in chemo, and as your friends would come and visit and as she would be worshiping … It was actually an expansion of the Church, of the Kingdom, in a multifaceted way that is unimaginable. The Church traveled with her.
I think that is so, so important for us to just consider and to think through and to just say, "God is kind to give us breathing room to navigate this." And here's the other thing I want to say: There is room, and there is grace, for us to make mistakes along the way. And you might be listening, like, "Oh my gosh, I've done this thing [..." That's OK. There is room for you to navigate this and for you to trust the Holy Spirit to guide you in what this next season of life ought to look like. And so the last thing that we would want you to feel is shame, but rather [we want you to feel] this deep sense of hope, like you said, ready to run this marathon. So thanks for sharing that.
Madi:
I do have follow-up questions.
Joel:
Yes.
Madi:
OK. Well, one question would be, if a person is listening today and they are a Christian, they believe in Jesus, and they do not attend a church, does that still make them Christian?
Joel:
Oh, you're throwing out the hard ones.
Madi:
Sorry.
Joel:
I would want to ask a lot of questions about it. And I would want to leave room for if there is something that took place, something traumatic, in their life that has caused them to ... I have got some friends where if they walk into a church building, they actually (it’s like a “the body keeps the score” type of thing) have a traumatic experience, and they're trying to heal through that. Is there real, legitimate wounding there? I want to ask those questions because I think, again, there's room for those types of people.
Now, if this is like, "Yeah, I really like watching football on Sunday morning …" or "It's just not a priority in my life to attend church or to be a part of a church, but I'm a Christian …" Here's how I would liken it. Every metaphor, every imagery, falls apart at some level, so just hear me with grace as I say this: That would be like me saying to my wife, Britt, "Babe, I love you. I just love being married to you, but I think I'm going to buy an apartment down the street and live there."
Kaley:
That would be interesting.
Joel:
Right. And it'd be like, Wait a minute ...
Kaley:
Like, you say you're committed, but you're not living out your commitment, is that what you're saying?
Joel:
Yeah. I say, “I love being with you.” I say, "I love you." Part of my love is that we do things together, that we eat food together, that all the hard things and the good things are all together. But then I look at you and I go, "But, yeah, I'm good. I'm going to go to a different place out of my own decision." Well, I've got some friends in my life, and some of y'all are them, who would be like, "No, that's wack. You cannot say out of your mouth that you love Britt and then buy an apartment, live in an apartment, in a different part of town just because you don't want to be next to her, be around her. There's something wrong there."
So again, metaphor and imagery that I'm using here as an example, to bring a point out, [shows that] God's “Plan A” for the family of God is the local church. It is to experience the fullness of the family in relationship with each other. So if that's the case, we’ve got to navigate through what it is that is creating this resentment or this resistance to wanting to be a part of the Church. Because what we just can't get away from is that God's desire is for our sanctification, for our accountability, for our growth in Christ's likeness. All of Paul's letters in the New Testament are communications to local churches. It's these gatherings of believers.
And Paul is helping them grow in their sanctification, grow in their love for Jesus in light of real life situations. The letter to the church in Philippi … People were losing it. They were in relational turmoil. Well, Paul's writing to those situations. So I would say, yeah, church is super, super important, and if my position is just flippantly, "Yeah, I could do without it," then I would just ask: Well, do we really have a full grasp of what the Church actually is?
Kaley:
Yeah.
Madi:
Yeah. Do you have a piece of encouragement or a word for someone who's experienced deep church wounding? And what you would suggest they do next?
Joel:
Yeah, I would just say I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. You should have never experienced that. That is not how God designed the Church. The leaders that you experienced hurt from — that was sin. And I would just want to let them know there's hope. There's hope that we experience today in an imperfect way, and there is a future hope that we will experience in fullness. And the time that it takes to process through your hurt — not to go around it, not to bypass it, but to work through your hurt — is worthy work. And, yeah, that's what I would say. If it takes time, it takes time.
But I would lovingly, lovingly say, there are safe places. There are safe churches. There are places where you can be seen and you can be heard and you can be taken care of, where you find evidence of this Acts 2 reality. And like our friend Jim Cress on the Therapy & Theology podcast always says, in order to build back trust, it takes time plus believable behavior. I think the same is true for church. Give yourself the grace and the space to let that time plus the believable behavior present itself to you. I would just, again, urge you toward praying and asking the Lord to give you an openness of heart so that you can work in that way. But first and foremost, I would just say I'm so sorry.
Kaley:
Yeah. That's so good, Joel. I have one last question that I want to ask you. In thinking of the modern Church as we experience it today and going back and looking at the principles of the Church, what do you think right now is something that the Church isn't addressing enough or isn't talking about enough that we should consider?
Joel:
Yeah, this is such a good question. One of the things that I find so fascinating about the ancient Church is that the Church was unified in its diversity. So in Acts 2, and these churches in Philippi and Corinth and Galatia and Ephesus … These are multiethnic, multigenerational, socioeconomically diverse places. And it's the presence of all of these people who have everything going against them but who love each other, who would give their lives for each other, who would do this Acts 2 kind of giving to each other as they have need. So I would just want to say, again, from the principle standpoint, “OK, what are those things that have to be mapped over to our modern day that we might be missing a bit?” And I'm not saying everybody's missing it, but just maybe it's not in the forefront. And one of those things for me is churches, and even ministries, I guess we can say, that have a hyperawareness of those folks who are in the disabled community or [who live with] mental health kind of things.
I had the opportunity the last couple years to be the camp pastor for my friends Jay and Katherine Wolf. They have a ministry called Hope Heals. Katherine suffered a catastrophic stroke right after she had gotten married and had her first child. And it's interesting that she says, "The question for us is not if we're disabled but when disability will be a reality for us." It's just a reality for us. I think of Bruce Willis right now, in terms of ... I mean, he's suffering a severe form of dementia, and he's found himself in the disabled community in that way. I mean, we are seeing this all over the place. So with that, I would say one of the marks of the Church is: How do we love? How do we care? These are full image bearers of God. The image of God is fully present.
And I would say this: Being at camp, being with these folks who have disabilities, either physical or mental, all these things, I went there to give them the hope of the gospel. No, they gave me the hope of the gospel. Being in community with them, they had something to teach me. And so the language sometimes in that community is [to call people without disabilities] “able-bodied.” Today I'm able-bodied. Tomorrow I may not be able-bodied. I played basketball last night. I'm feeling that lack of able-bodied-ness coming upon me very quickly. [Laughs.] And I say it kind of jokingly, but that is also true. I don't know what's going to happen. And so it's like, as the Church, are we creating systems, putting effort and emphasis in seeing who is fully in our community and saying, "You are valued. You are treasured. You are loved."?
I was with Jennie Allen and the IF:Gathering team just a couple weeks ago, and I taught a workshop for them. And Jennie and the team are close friends with us here at Proverbs 31 Ministries. We love them. And I was just blown away because I was teaching my workshop, and behind these two doors was an ASL translation committee, a team that was live translating, in American Sign Language, my workshop. Then they had a whole different room that had Spanish translation and Portuguese translation and all that kind of stuff. And you go, Well, why? Well, it's because you're welcome. You are a part. Your hurt is our hurt. Your inability to get the gospel is our inability to get the gospel. And so why wouldn't we want to put in practices and policies and methods [of accommodation] in how we do church? Katherine talks often about just church platforms, church stages — many of them are not even ADA compliant. I think it's ADA, right? Is that the right terminology?
Kaley:
I think so.
Joel:
Just the ramp ... She'll say getting her wheelchair on the stage can sometimes be really, really difficult. And so it's stuff like that. And I think it's a massive part of our community that God loves, that God cherishes. The banquet feast in Luke, I think it's Chapter 14 or 17, is all about these folks, these types of people who are welcome into the feast, into the banquet feast. And so if God would welcome them, why wouldn't we want to welcome them?
Kaley:
Yeah. I think a lot of times about one day, the day when I get to heaven. I want to live in such a way now where I'm so acquainted with what it's going to be like that I look forward to it. And if I'm not experiencing that gathering today in a way that is representative of all different kinds of people doing this in a community that reflects Jesus now, why would I be excited about it one day? Does that make sense?
Joel:
That's so good, Kales. And I would just even add that we will be in community with each other in the new heavens and the new earth, so what we do now matters.
Kaley:
It's an imperfect reflection of what a perfect heaven is going to be.
Joel:
Absolutely. And I think it is wild that the resurrected Jesus bears the marks of the cross on His physical, resurrected body. Katherine and I talked about this. Is she going to have a wheelchair, or is she not going to have a wheelchair? And I was thinking about this theologically, and I go, “You know what? Every ounce of our suffering and our pain and our hurt … Paul talks about it producing an ‘eternal weight of glory’ (2 Corinthians 4:17, CSB). These are things that are forming us as people.” And so it's like, Katherine, who's in that wheelchair and is who she is today … She was formed, in a way, through that suffering. And that is not going to be obliterated in the new heavens and the new earth. It's going to be glorified and celebrated, and she'll be fully whole. How would that make sense? I don't know.
Kaley:
I know. It's wild.
Joel:
But it is a sanctifying thing for you and me. For me to be in community, in relationship, with other people who don't look like me, act like me, talk like me, is important. I remember when Britt and I first got married, and we had some friends, and I had just gotten my first real job. All my friends were still poor college kids, and we'd be like, "Hey, let's go out to dinner." And Britt and I were like, "Yeah, let's go to a steakhouse." And they're like, "Uhh, hey, maybe we'll meet you afterward for dessert." And I remember thinking, Man, I did not even take into consideration the situation of my friends, who I love. And so it is a good and holy and sanctifying thing for me to be thoughtful and to say, "Hey, let's do dinner at my house." Or, "I'll make steaks for everybody." Or, "Let's find a spot." These are things that would not have taken place if I was not in a relationship with different people of different types. And this is part of the Church. That's why we value these things inside of the local church.
Kaley:
So good. Madi, I feel like if there is one topic to really get Joel on and just keep going and going, it would be —
Madi:
The Church.
Kaley:
The Church would be it. Right, Joel?
Joel:
Yeah. I didn't think about until now. I'm, like, really passionate about this.
Kaley:
You're very passionate about the Church.
Joel:
I could keep going.
Madi:
I feel passionate about it too.
Kaley:
I feel passionate about it. I also feel sometimes, whenever I leave a conversation like this, I'm like, OK, what do I do with this? Because we learned a lot about Acts 2, and then we went to Eden, and we talked about disability, and we talk about what happens if I've been hurt. OK. Deep breaths. And then I remember we have this really cool resource at Proverbs 31 that's free. It's called “Now What?” How fitting is that? It's called “Now What? A Guide To Process and Apply Biblical Messages.” And our team put this together a couple years ago because we realized sometimes we have conversations like this at Proverbs, where you're like, "Oh, that was awesome. OK, what do I do with this information, and how do I figure out how it applies to my life?" And so we've linked to this free resource for you in the show notes so that you can download and process this podcast episode on your own. It's great.
Madi:
Yeah, I think that's awesome. And guys, make sure you connect with Joel on Instagram. Every Tuesday he does a Q&A called “Theology Tuesdays.” Maybe if there's a question about the Church that you had as we had this discussion, you could leave it there. And maybe we can get him on and do a part two of this conversation. I would love that.
Kaley:
Yeah. Same-sies. Also, please don't forget to rate the show and leave us a written review on Apple Podcasts if this information has been helpful to you. We love hearing from you guys, and your reviews also help us reach more women with biblical solutions as they grow in their faith.
Well, friends, that's all for today. Thanks for joining us, Joel, and thanks for joining us, Madi, and thanks for listening, friends. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.