Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Learn about the principles and practice of nonviolence as an active force for personal, social, and political change. Co-hosted with Grassroots Leadership Criminal Justice / Participatory Defense Organizer and Visions After Violence Fellow with Texas After Violence Project Robert Tyrone Lilly and Jim Crosby, the show covers current events, learning opportunities, and nonviolent direct action taking place locally. Airs 1st Thursdays of every month from 1-2 pm CT at KOOP Community Radio 91.7 FM in Austin, Texas, and streaming online at koop.org.
Get my mic hooked up just right here. Going out on a limb a little bit with this one. Start us off today. Borderline Texan. This is an original from maybe 5 years ago.
Speaker 1:Started out being a real political song. Kinda went in a different surprise direction, but I hope you like it. Well, he's a borderline Texan. That's a clinical condition. Halfway between grace and perdition, he's a borderline Texan, but he's got good sense and he sees no need or a wall or a fence.
Speaker 1:Well, he's a lover and a fighter, just wants to live free. He ain't gonna settle. That's the way it's gonna be. You got a girl named Pearl and he don't stray far, but it's torn between Pearl and his coat. I don't start.
Speaker 1:Each girl he's loved, he's freely admitted, and his family too say he ought to be committed. Now he won't turn tail and he won't take take an oath. He's from Del Rio and Acuna. Says, I'll take a little
Speaker 2:of
Speaker 1:both because he's a borderline Texan. That's a clinical condition on the border on the razor's edge. Grayson, prediction, he's a borderline Texan, but he's a pow doll. Like that hot rod Lincoln, he just won't stall. Well, he ain't too patient.
Speaker 1:Don't like the way he says tell me, mama. Must I hesitate? Hesitate? Got hesitating Charlie done boots for shoes to put some on Monday morning with the borderline blue. He, he had no love of an IV education, better off working at the Texaco station, tossed out of school, borderline cynic, no educated fool, only used to get juiced in it because he's a borderline Texan, that's a clinical condition, boys between grace and tradition.
Speaker 1:He's a borderline Texan, true to the end if you're down on the border. He's your best friend. No bad hair. Dave's got him a Stetson hat and a John Deere gimme. He says, I like it like that.
Speaker 1:He won't do nothing just to please us, says all I want is a little more faith. Lord knows in Jesus. Because he's a borderline Texan. That's a clinical condition halfway between grace and perdition. He's a borderline Texan, but but he got good sense and he sees no need for a wall or a fence.
Speaker 1:No offense. Take it, Stacy.
Speaker 3:Cha cha cha. Why not? Hey, y'all. Happy New Year.
Speaker 2:Happy New Year to you. Happy New Year.
Speaker 3:Welcome, Chaz.
Speaker 4:Thank you all for having me.
Speaker 3:You are tuned in to the 1st nonviolent awesome radio hour of 2025. The year of abundance I proclaim.
Speaker 2:I would say the Buck Rogers years.
Speaker 3:That's right. Thank you for tuning in. 91.7fmk0op.org. For For those of y'all streaming from anywhere you're at, I am your host Stacey Fraser. My pronouns are shethey.
Speaker 3:I am joined in camaraderie and love with, brothers Jim Crosby, brother Robert Tyrone Lilly, and Chaz Moore of Austin Justice Coalition. And we created this program to talk about nonviolence, King Ian nonviolence, the the will, the skills. And, Jim and I are both level 2 conflict reconciliation trainers. And this, show aligns with our commitment to being the change and being in community and using every vehicle we have available to share that word and to weave us together in community as much in, as possible. So how's everybody oh, I must say, the views expressed here are not necessarily those of the say that.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it gets you on trouble. The coop, board of directors, staff, volunteers, or underwriters.
Speaker 1:Chances you usually my youth, not you, though, or at least I try to listen closely.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Listening. Alright, Chaz. Well, why don't you introduce yourself for the few folks who may not already know your greatness.
Speaker 4:That that is so kind, Stacey. Thank you for that. I'm I'm Chaz Moore. I'm the founder, and now just the organizing director. I'm not the ED.
Speaker 4:No more of Austin Justice Coalition. Born and raised in Houston. You know, my my mom is my mom is Pam Pam Moore. She passed away when I was 7, so I was raised by my grandparents, Ella Pettit and Lee Pettit, and he passed away my freshman year in high school. So, you know, just really raised by my grandma a lot.
Speaker 4:And I I think because of her and and our really, unique closeness her birthday is actually on Monday, and mine is on Tuesday. You know, I don't know if that's serendipitous or not, but, you know, she's instilled a lot of, just do do rightness in me, and she taught me how to speak and stand up for
Speaker 1:what
Speaker 4:I believe in, you know, and I think that's been a a a pillar of who I am and, a a little bit of the pillars of, who AJC is and, you know, and briefly, you know, AJC, this is year 10. 2025 is year 10. I think that's something most people would, you know, clap and hooray about. I don't I don't know if we're gonna do big celebrations or not because we we really don't do galas and stuff like that. But, yeah, you know, and it's been interesting.
Speaker 4:And, we started AJC, because I think I I I believe I saw a need for, a community group that could be multifaceted, both in, the the people that embody the group and also the work we do. Right? We we don't we started out with just police, but now, I think we have a very broad, scope of work we do, around just abolition. Right? Like, always looking at everything with an abolitionist lens, and really a lot of this beloved community stuff.
Speaker 4:You know? I think, I I think, a a lot of the work we do now is really getting people to focus not so much on, you know, like the Trumps or the Putins, but, like, the the the evil forces that may be, you know, pushing them to do the things they do and and and showing the individuals grace, but, you know, wholeheartedly attacking the, the systems and institutions so we can get to, I think the world we all deserve. Right? Yeah. I just think we deserve to live, and and be happy and be free.
Speaker 4:So
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 1:Besides grandma, any early influences or things that that, I call you radical and that for that means for that me, that means somebody who's going for root causes, trying to make things better by getting at the roots. So what made you radical besides grandma?
Speaker 4:I I I think a couple of things. Right? I think life, you you know, I think, you know, my own involvement with the criminal legal system, like most of us. Right? Most people do not care about how jacked up, the the legal system is until it really affects you, and I didn't understand it.
Speaker 4:Right? I didn't understand it, the way I do now because I wasn't impacted by it. Right? I knew people messed up or they did bad and they had to go, you know, sit and do some time, but I didn't know the collateral consequences of being, and then more so I'm talking about, like, people that are labeled felons and things of that nature. Right?
Speaker 4:And even some, like, misdemeanor crimes, some of that stuff, life follows you for a while, but I didn't understand the collateral consequences. So I think that, that was a huge influence. And then, you you take Trayvon Martin, up until now with body cameras and just really, having the the proof, of this hunch, that you know what I mean? Like, yeah, man. Police are, like, racist.
Speaker 4:Right? But, like, now we can I can show you, and and I think that's part of it? And then also, you know, the Angela Davis has always been a really big part of my learnings. The older I get, Bill Hooks, Baldwin, Stephen Baldwin, not not Alec, and, both Malcolm and Martin but Malcolm and Martin in ways that we don't really talk about them. Right?
Speaker 4:I think a lot of people romantic, romanticize Malcolm pre Mecca, and I for some reason, we don't focus on Malcolm after Mecca. It's not enough conversation about that, Malcolm. And then also, we we also, romanticize this really passive MLK. And, you know, when you when you think about, where do we go from here and why we can't wait, you know, that that MLK is the one that we really need to study and examine, but we don't. Right?
Speaker 4:And the the you know some other folks, you know, the Shirley Chisholm's, you know, Bayard Rustin in in, like, his his his, strategy, if that's a word, Fannie Lou Hamer, Audre Lorde, like, these folks that, really had a gift to get the thoughts out of the head and put them on paper, and make it so plain to where, you know, it just really fueled my fire to, to fight for what I believe is is righteous and just so. And then and then, you know, it's it's a whole man, I just watched this documentary about, Annie Mae, Aquash, who was, indigenous woman in the American Indian Movement. First of all, I'm ashamed to say I didn't even know the American Indian Movement was like this this really awesome group, of people that, you know, they had their faults like every other movement because egos and power and status, but, Annie Mae was this woman who was just a warrior. And, you know, you know, sub, you know, subsequently, she was killed by members of her own party, and I think the FBI kinda orchestrate. I know they did because they they made her seem like a a snitch, like, you know, they kept arresting her and letting her out, so they built this, really big case of doubts, from people within the movement.
Speaker 4:But, you know, I I take I I take fuel from the American Indian Movement. I take fuel from Fred Hampton. I take fuel from, you know, the Soledad Brothers and all this type of stuff, and, like, it just really, encourages me to keep doing what I'm doing. And people like you, Jim, everybody in here, you know, like, on a local level, Yeah. So many people.
Speaker 4:If I if I name all the local people, that'll be the end of the show, but, I'm I'm just really, constantly amazed by and I don't wanna say the word resilience, but that's probably what it is because I hate the fact that we have to be resilient, but, you know, like, even the the kids and women and men in Palestine, that are are are still keeping their head high, and just people. Right? Like, I'm I'm I'm people keep me going for sure.
Speaker 2:Well, I wanna say thank you, Chaz, for coming in today and being a part of this conversation with us. You know, your voice is important in this community. Your thoughts are important in this community, and your presence is important in this community. I wanna say that I even was, you may or may not recall this, but, I was before I became a resident of, Travis County, I traveled here for the purpose of being plugged into some of the radical element that that, Jim was referring to a moment ago. I think it was the student the the the Democratic's the socialist party.
Speaker 2:I think they were doing a bunch of lectures around the new Jim Crow some years ago. I don't remember the year exactly, but there was a young person, a young man that was killed and they had a they had a a rally for him at one of the parks locally. And I came in, they brought me in as a speaker from from West Texas knowing that I was doing some work there. And that's when I that's the first time I met you. I think you were speaking on the on that day.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if it was Liberation Park or Liberty Park, one of those parks on the east side. It's the one with the awning or the, Oh,
Speaker 4:your Givens. I remember
Speaker 2:Givens. Yeah. You yep. Yeah. Givens.
Speaker 2:So I I I think I even got a YouTube video that day. It was a very good day, and it just reinforced why I needed to find a community like this community, where there were people that were challenging the status quo. What I love about how you introduce yourself and what you how you responded to Jim's question was that you listed names that I didn't learn about until I went to prison. You know, our educational system is jacked. It doesn't give us access to that accurate information to get inspired, and perhaps for the very reason that you listed them, because it would inspire the reproduction of people like yourself.
Speaker 2:But before I before I I I go any further, I just wanna say, you know, you thank congratulations on 10 years for, Austin Justice Coalition. I've had some dealings with you all and not nearly enough, but, definitely as the time progresses, my hope is to change that. But as a nonprofit leader, I wanna ask you because we had I think one of the prompts we put out was to kind of reflect a little bit on this book we have called the non called the the revolution would not be funded, beyond the nonprofit industrial complex. What have been some of your struggles or your angst If they if, you know, not to put words in your mouth because there may not be any, but have you found it could many of the leaders that you, rephrase. So many of the leaders that you described, they they predate this this this formation of organizations that consider themselves, you know, legitimate legitimately structured organizations.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 2:So tell me a little bit about what your experience with that event. You know,
Speaker 4:I was just
Speaker 3:gonna let you actually think on that for reflect on that question for a minute. We're gonna take a real quick traffic break.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:And and then we'll we'll get into that response.
Speaker 5:Snap, Crackle, and Pop. Co op Radio and the Carpenter Hotel present vinyl nights with your favorite co op DJs every month at the Carpenter Hotel Coffee Bar. Bring your own vinyl to spin or enjoy the playlist curated by the co op DJs and residents that night. Happening every 2nd Wednesday of the month from 6 to 8 PM. More information at coop.org or on our socials at coopradio.
Speaker 3:Hey, y'all. This is Stacey Fraser. I am the cohost of nonviolent Austin Radio Hour on K00P91.7 FM, and thank you for streaming us all over the place, k0op.org. We are grateful for Chaz Moore, who is one of our movement leaders here in our backyard here in Austin, with Austin Justice Coalition. And right before the break, if you're just joining us, well, first, Chaz introduced, himself, his roots, his grandmother's role in raising him, and my grandma's raised me too.
Speaker 3:And I, Peggy Jo and Ivy Jean are right here, and they inform me for being in this room right now. So shout out to grandma's. Brother Rob was segueing us into a book and a conversation that so we all now have some knowledge of and exposure, and it it really changed the trajectory of my walking through. I did 20 years, you know, in philanthropy in the nonprofit industrial complex, and this was a foundational book for me.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:So,
Speaker 2:for the revolution I will admit, yeah, I will admit that I have not read it in its entirety. I've done piecemeal, but it's the book is entitled, the revolution will not be funded beyond the non profit industrial complex, with a new preface and a forward. So this is a new addition of it. And I was asking, Chaz to just kind of with 10 years celebration for this organization and its, Austin Justice Coalition and its existence in this community, striving to make social change a reality. I asked him, you know, what has been that what has what has that journey been like, especially considering that many of the icons he's drawn strength from
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Predate the nonprofit model. What are your highlights, lows, struggles, whatever we wanna share about that?
Speaker 4:You know, I think, the that that book is very, I'm, I think dangerous, if you are in a nonprofit space, because it it it it causes just, like, existential crisis, if if you if you read it, and you internalize a lot of the information. And I think for for me, you know, I the I've I've always wondered after reading the book, like, is is movement nonprofit work, even a a real thing. Right? Like, because I I think a lot of times and I I'll say for me, the the reason we decided to go that route is because people like to give money to things that they deem legitimate. Right?
Speaker 4:So having a c three status legitimizes you, in the society and rural where people deem things legitimate if they have certain stamps. Right? And so I I I think that's one part of it, and I I think that's something that, hopefully, people, question and challenge as we move ahead because we know that I think non profit is like, you know, AJC, Grassroots, many other groups are going to be under a microscope over the next at least the next 4 years. And I think that's gonna have an effect on how we in in c three movement space move and and operate. But then also too, I I think my biggest angst with c three stuff is that, I've I've literally watched it, kinda dictate how we move.
Speaker 4:Right? And not not we, AJC, but we collectively. You know, I I I've seen organizations that claim to be abolitionists and claim to be, you know, forward thinking, but, you know, when it comes to election season and, you know, now the foundations are funding election work, all this stuff goes out the window. Right? And I'm not saying that these two things can't be true, but, like, it's these it's these really hard, nonsmooth transitional periods all because of, like, funding cycles.
Speaker 4:Right? And then also too. Right? And and and I I think the movement needs to have these more honest conversations. I think that, a lot of folks that considers that considers themselves movement folks, also wouldn't be in the movement, if if if a check wasn't coming with it.
Speaker 4:Right? C threes allow you to get money, get funding so you can pay people, and there's this huge discourse around, you know, people in the movement need to be paid, which I'm not disagreeing with, but, you know, again, to your point, Rob, like, when I'm talking about all these greats that we all like and we all love and we got them on posters at the rallies and and the marches, they, you know, they wasn't getting no check on the 1st 15th. You know, like, I it it's a it's a a story that Malcolm X died with, like, $300 in his pocket. And he's one of our most, like, famous, well known movement thinkers and leaders. Right?
Speaker 4:So it it's a it's a very weird waltz. Right? It's it's it's this because people do need to eat. People that do movement work do deserve, some level of stability because it it's also very hard to, like, work a a 9 to 5 at a job that 9 times out of 10 is not going to let you or like the things that you are saying that is, against the status quo, and then find time after 5 o'clock to do movement work. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4:So so it's just like it it's it's almost become this necessary evil, especially now to where, you know, like you know, I think my grandma bought her house for, like, $27,000. The idea of me buying a house seems so crazy, because of the work I I know I'm supposed to do, that doesn't come with the price tag of, like, Techborough downtown. So, like, how do I you know? It it's it's it's it's always very interesting. Right?
Speaker 4:And then we also know that, and, again, I think we've been almost too pure in in our politics because, internally, because, like, man, we turned down so much money. We we don't take money. Like, we don't take city grants. We don't take federal grants. We we don't do stuff like we don't take stuff from, like I don't think we've taken money from Facebook, Google, Amazon, and the all these people approach us, especially in 2020.
Speaker 4:Right? But it's just like and then but then we also don't we don't do the fundraising thing because the people that love us and support us are working class people, and it it feels icky to us to ask you, every day at 12 o'clock. Oh, we count on you to, you know, keep us going just like these are working class people. A lot of them are are are either older or parents with kids, and, like, it it doesn't make sense for them to fund the work either. So, you know, I think over the years and, especially now, we we've always kinda just really struggled with with the c three thing and always question, like, is this what we need to be doing?
Speaker 4:But, yeah, man. It it's just a it it's one of those things. You know? It's just one of those things.
Speaker 2:If I could, chime back in before I transition or pass it on to someone else. Thank you again for your transparency. When I think about there there's another book that that is not in front of me. It's called collective courage by, Gordon Nimbard. She's a woman.
Speaker 2:Her name is Gordon, though. And she's a professor, and she's collected these historical markers of survival for people of, African descent who, after slavery, used the cooperative process to immediately meet their needs. And I I I bring that up because that's something I've struggled with as a person who's justice impacted. I I sat in prison and studied the nonprofits because coming from a gang bang background, I was trying to find a way to still maintain solidarity with members of my community that didn't that didn't allow us to be criminalized. Right?
Speaker 2:But here now, we're on the verge of nonprofit organizations, as you said, using the term microscope. We're being scrutinized even more, critically in this new era. Right? So I think it's a time for us to think creatively outside of the box, and I bring up the idea of the the the cooperative model because I remember reading the story of what's her name, you name you think you named him up. That wasn't Fannie Lou Hemm.
Speaker 2:It was Ella Baker. Ella Baker went all around the country, had even members, you know, common folk put pennies in a pool. And she basically funded the NAACP and then some of its cutting edge work. I mean, if it wasn't for her leadership, the organization probably wouldn't have existed in the way it now exists today or at least historically and had the impact that it did, but it was through pennies. She literally was having people donate pennies.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I just point that out just to say that in my mind today, I'm I'm struggling
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because, like you said, on one hand, I think, you know, like anybody, I wanna I wanna I wanna write to live and exist and eat, but at what cost? Yeah. You know?
Speaker 4:And and you know, man, I think, I I'm absolutely with you, but you know, but and, also, I I think the the one of the only ways that can work is that, because this still has to be in alignment. Right? Like, like, we are staunchly abolitionists at this point. Like, you know, me and my team believe in what we believe in, and it is what it is. Right?
Speaker 2:And if would you clarify that? Because they've heard me talk about and some of the audience has heard me speak to abolition, but Oh, yeah. Give me your I just idea.
Speaker 4:My my my perspective of abolition is that, there can be another world where, we still hold people accountable for because we know humans are gonna mess up. Right? Like, humans are gonna cause harm, but we believe that there there's a better way to hold people accountable than to put them in jails or prisons, away from their family and loved ones and community. We don't believe that, any person with a badge and a gun is ever gonna, equal to any amount of safety. That's never been historically true.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. And we also believe that there is a a version, of this society where people can just live and exist to where you know? I mean, I'm so far into it because I can't rep every time I pay rent, I'm just like, you know, like, what I I shouldn't have to pay rent to, like, have shelter. You know what I mean? Like, you know, people's if you're hungry and if you need a place to stay, especially in in America, like, this really wealthy country, we should have systems in set up in place to where, people can just live and be.
Speaker 4:Right? And, to me, abolition is about how can we get to a a a a rural society where everybody can have the things they need and live and be and and feel safe, because what we have presented to us. Right? Like, prime example, New Year's, morning, right, with the what they call them a terrorist attack. Right?
Speaker 4:Like, you know, let's just I I'm doing air quotes because y'all can't see it, but,
Speaker 1:I see it.
Speaker 4:But, you know, I think, you you know, like, that place was crowded with police. It was police all over the place. Matter of fact, the dude drove past police before he drove down the street and did what he did. Right? So, like, this idea that, police keep us safe is, like, a prime example of what we talk about in abolition.
Speaker 4:It's just like and then also, it it's taking it a step further to question how could or what levels of love could we have given that individual in any in any individual that causes harm to make them not wanna do that. Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:I think abolition really is just the presence of, like, really deep grace, love, and community. Because I think once you have that, right, like, if we could get a glimpse of a beloved community, it is literally the only thing you need. Like, if we can if we can somehow convince people that our greatest resource is one another, like, all this other stuff doesn't matter. And I think once we understand that all these things that have been, really colonized, like, family structures. Right?
Speaker 4:Like, your family is not only the bloodline that you have. Your family is your neighbor that you talk to every day. It's the teacher that's teaching your child every day. Right? It's the person it it's the old lady at Walmart when you go in and she, you know, checks your receipt.
Speaker 4:It's all that stuff is all you need, but we we we we we have been bamboozled into thinking that as long as I have a certain amount of money in my bank account or I have the newest Tesla truck or whatever, then I'm succeeding in life. But, again, like, all of everything we need in life comes from each other.
Speaker 3:And with deep grace, love, and community, we're gonna take one quick break. We'll be right back. Hey, mister Fontaine. Tell me what's going on.
Speaker 4:I'm going down to If you enjoy the musical diversity of the great state of Louisiana, then tune in every Wednesday from 9 to 11 AM for Fadeau Do with your host, Tom Mankey, where you will hear the sounds of Cajun, zydeco blues, swamp pop, New Orleans Brass Band, and New Orleans R and B. Hope you can make it because we always let the Bon Ton rule out.
Speaker 3:Greetings, y'all. You are tuned in to nonviolent Austin Radio Hour here on 91.7 FM here in Austin and k0op.org, streaming everywhere. I'm your co host, Stacey Fraser, brothers Jim Crosby, brother Robert Tyrone Lilly, and Blessings. Chaz Moore, and we are whoo. We are halfway through the show, and, we set some of the groundwork for well, first, we I have deep honor, respect, and gratitude for 10 years of Austin Justice Coalition existing and being out here.
Speaker 3:I left Austin for 20 years and, when I came back in 2021, my first, assignment for myself was to find out who was doing racial justice organizing work here because that's who I wanted to be in community with. And AJC was the first organization I I found and and started meeting community. And so thank you for that, Chaz, and the role you've played in making that happen.
Speaker 4:Just just try my best. And, you know, I think we've only gotten better. Right? I I don't think there's no end to the work that needs to be done, but, I I think because of people like JP who is, now in California and Suki and, you know, I I think we've really grown to a place of just doing what we believe in. Right?
Speaker 4:And, like, people like Lochni, who who's very radical, and some other folks. Right? And, again, people like Jim that has always come and brought, like, the nonviolent perspective and, you know, the teachings of of of, pastor Barber. You know, I think that has all really formed this really, again, staunch, ideology that we have. It's just like all these systems don't work.
Speaker 4:We know they don't work. But again, we can we can build and transfigure new modes of being and new modes of living, if we just believe in that. Right? And, you know, like, people like, Mary Elizabeth, who's been around, I think, since the beginning. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it's just it's been really awesome to see us grow to where we are, and I'm excited to see where we go, in the future because, you know, I have every intention of, stepping I don't wanna say back or down, but, you know, I I'm I'm looking for some some young leadership to to be the person that can be the spokesperson for AJC and be like the the their own version of who Chaz has been for AJC over the last 10 years because, I think that's important. Right? I don't I don't wanna be the person that's, you know, 30 years in agency is just me. Right? I want I wanna see the the the next, even more radical iterations of AJC and and see how these young folks can, you know, just just blow the lid off this thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. If we look at our movement, you know, elders, you know, the charismatic individual leader doesn't sustain itself and, you know, the movement work will continue as long as we're, you know, humans trying to accomplish something together in society. And so, you know, kudos to you for having that awareness of sustaining the movement and finding, you know, other people, to carry it on together. You know, Jim and I, Jim started non founded Nonviolent Austin in 2019?
Speaker 1:18.
Speaker 3:18. And, you know, I came in joined, you know, midstream and then, you know, along with brother Rob and many, many others, we have a, you know, nonhierarchical archical Unfunded. Yeah. Well, we now here's the thing. Going back to insight and weaving this, you know, fabric, this cloth, as long as we are here Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It would be self destructive and and and and self implosion to not use where we're at in this moment in time and those tools at our disposal and while we're building the alternative. Because this is not working and we learned this on our last trip to Selma is institutionalized organizationalizing and institutionalizing The movement is the next level of kinky and nonviolence training and organizing. And so as long as the 501c3 nonprofit status exists as a tax incentive for wealthy people to give Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Then we
Speaker 3:let's use it while we're finding the alternative, and let's find a fit we have a fiscal sponsor.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And so we raise money Yep. To fuel our activities Yep. Through a fiscal sponsorship.
Speaker 2:Alright. Did you wanna say something, Jim? I didn't wanna cut your thoughts.
Speaker 1:Go ahead and do that first, and I've got a a couple of questions for Chad. Let him riff.
Speaker 2:Well, and my thoughts might change take us in a slightly different direction, but, I'll take a risk. Alright? So I I have another struggle that I I I find myself dealing with, and it is I'm an organizer, and I work primarily to organize people who are justice impacted. And what that means for those that are listening today, those that have have had experiences with systems, particularly carceral or criminal justice systems. I hesitate to use the word justice because it implies that there's some kind of balance and fairness.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And and and then oftentimes for black people, African American people, that does not exist in these systems. That said, systems can be be it can go beyond criminal justice systems. It can also relate to the family court. Right?
Speaker 2:It could relate to, the bail system. I mean, the the the list goes on. Right? Educational systems. But systems, right, in general, when these when we look closely at these systems, they have negative outcomes for black people, poor people, and people, quote, unquote, had identified as of color on a graded scale.
Speaker 2:Right? The darker you are, the the the the more dire and and bleak your your outcomes are. With that said, here I am supposedly with the responsibility of organizing this population. And what I find is that when I when I come in contact with them, many of these people are their lives are being held by a a a slim thread.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They they don't really have sustenance. Housing is, you know, tenuous. And, you know, so, yes, I believe in social change. Mhmm. But when I'm dealing with somebody who is in need of immediate support, I wrestle with the idea of how much of what I'm doing needs to be reconfigured around, service.
Speaker 4:But see, like, this and and this is also like a a a big struggle I have too because, a lot of c three movement work, and this is no dig at anybody. Right? But it's charity. Right? Like, if if I'm cutting you a check to help you with bills and food and meet that immediate need, that that that is important, and that can be an organizing tool.
Speaker 4:Right? Because you're building relationships with these people. But if if if we have a whole program just for that, and we call it service, it's really charity. And I I think the reason that, like, we don't get too much funding is because, like, it's it's really hard to, both talk about how you wanna change systems, and then you like, one of 3 letters I hate when they are used together in movement work and nonprofit work is KPI. I hate when people say key performance indicator to me.
Speaker 4:It blows my mind. Right? Like, you know, and I I I I get it, but I don't like it, and I don't quite understand it. But if we're if we're doing system change work that we know is gonna take time, same thing with organizing. Right?
Speaker 4:Like, which is why, you know, a a lot of the work that needs to be done can't be funded because it takes too long, and funders want to funders want you to succeed so they can show off what they did. Right? Oh, we funded that group that did this thing, but they're not giving you money to, like, build relationships with these people. Like, organizing is never funded. They fund projects and campaigns.
Speaker 4:Right? Like, we need x amount of people to show up at city hall to get this result on this thing. Right? But what you're talking about is essential because, or it it it's essential because it spots it it spotlights a problem, I think, within the c three movement space for sure because, like, yes. Because I I would probably argue that that person that is, hanging on a thread is is a really key example of how these systems don't work, but it's also hard for that person to hear that, because they're hanging on a thread.
Speaker 4:Right? So how can I help you, and how can I use your life experience right now to show you how this is all played out from a myriad of systems that don't work?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:But a lot of times, like, we have a lot of organizations, here in Austin too. Right? Like, they're just they they want to use that person as a success story for somebody we helped, but there's no system change.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Right? And a lot of organizations, whether they wanna admit it or not, and I'll do it for y'all, is, like, prime example, Anthony Jackson is is a is one of the few people that does his work in a way that it should be done. He is a homeless service provider, but he also, has a program that gets people off the street and into housing. So that means Anthony Jackson is working to put himself out of business. That is how c three movement work social services should be.
Speaker 4:But a lot of us, like, in in the c three space, we actually depend on you to keep needing us because then when we do our year end report, we then go turn that to funders, and we get money for the next year. Right? And so it's just like, like, if we wanna do charity work, that's fine, but you can't call a system change
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Because it's not. Mhmm. Right? So, like, the person you were talking about, how can we to to me, it's like, how can I use this moment? And I'm I'm I still wanna help you.
Speaker 4:Right? Because I I wanna help people as much as I can.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:But how can I use this moment to educate you on why we need you in this movement so we can minimize the amount of people that are in the same boat as you? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:It does.
Speaker 4:Alright. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It does. I don't wanna Jim, did you wanna chime in? I'm I wanna make sure there's ample space for you in the conversation. I could go on.
Speaker 1:Okay. And I I hope you get opportunity. I I've got 4 things. I just wanna throw out and let let We only got an hour? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I only got an hour. I got 20 minutes 13 minutes left. Okay.
Speaker 3:That's helpful.
Speaker 1:But, Chaz, for the for you to do with what you will. Just 4 possible topics of brief conversation.
Speaker 3:Oh, choose your own adventure is what he's saying.
Speaker 1:Scott Bucktee.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:And while we're on the subject of memorializing Jimmy Carter, do you wanna go there? DEI, I think I met you first at when I was teaching at Saint Stephen's School
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:Via the good work of Yvonne the thrill Hill Adams, who is our DEI
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Coordinator and director. And and finally, DJing and your your, experience as a DJ. So Man, that was a lot.
Speaker 3:And we have time actually for probably 2 of them. So
Speaker 4:Well, I will say, so I have a radio show on KZI. And we we just do, like, live music. We got DJs doing a live show. And to me, I think some people because a lot of people don't understand duality. It was like, how can you be talking about all this stuff and have fun?
Speaker 4:It's just like because I'm human. But I also use that as a as a as a organizing tool. And even though we've only been doing the show 3 months, a brother called from Dale Valley. Now how's he listening to us from Dale Valley? I don't know.
Speaker 4:But, you know, shout out to them folks.
Speaker 1:Incarcerated you? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Incarcerated Yeah. Incarcerated in Del Valle. And he was like, man, we appreciate y'all so so much. Y'all, bring us a glimpse of joy every day. And, like, to me, like, so even though I'm doing something that is not traditionally used, as a organizing tool, that's what I'm using it for.
Speaker 4:Right? And I'm building community, and I'm providing, I I think, something that's needed in the city. Like, it's probably, the only time from 4 to 7, Monday, Tuesday, when Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday to where you can hear, just, you know, hip hop and r and b in a way that we haven't heard in Austin. Right? It's really fun, and and it's it's my place of respite.
Speaker 4:Right? It's where I get to go have fun at least 3 hours a day. The the I'm a answer the DEI question by giving you this answer that's gonna answer it a little bit, but not all the way. I I I think DEI, as we know it, is well, it's always been problematic to me, because I I the the framing around it, I I I think was not well polished. I think we just said, oh, we need to have, black and brown and people of color in these spaces, but, like, we didn't really say why.
Speaker 4:And then we also, like, didn't really, we we didn't open it up to all black and brown faces. Right? They're like it was still very classes. It was still very, like, you know, hierarchical. So, like, instead of saying diversity in a way of, like, having somebody like me or brother Robert, people that are just as impacted, that have lived that have lived experience, that can bring true diversity to x y z company, We're just gonna go get, a black brown person that meets all the, you know, all the degree boxes and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:And I I think it's been challenged in a way that I think is necessary, because I think it's gonna force the people, that have been planning this DEI flag to, like, really make a claim for what they claim to be fighting for.
Speaker 3:You are tuned in to 91.7 FM Radio Austin. Thank you if you're joining us online, k0op.org. I am sitting here with brothers Robert Tyronomili, brother Jim Crosby, Chaz Moore. We are talking about, what are we talking about y'all? We're right now, we're talking about DEI and and and I think
Speaker 2:I would characterize what we're talking about is how to make change through these systems that we have at our disposal
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And what it takes to think creatively outside of that box and how one person symbolizes that through his leadership and his mind, stretching it, using new tools to organize. So that would be my summarization.
Speaker 3:Appreciate that. And, shout out to weekend now. We were talking about Anthony Jackson.
Speaker 4:And has he been here yet?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's been on my other show. Yeah. Racism on the level.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Y'all should bring him here. I mean
Speaker 3:Absolutely. He's you're welcome back anytime.
Speaker 4:We we need more of that. Right? Like, we need more people that are trying to and, again, we're talking about c 3 nonprofit stuff. Like Is
Speaker 2:he a c 3?
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And, like but but, you know, you know, he's also, kinda, doing work that is against, his mission statement. Right? Like, if if we're here to provide services for the homeless, but now we're getting people in homes, like, that's the kinda crazy work we need to be doing. Right?
Speaker 4:Like
Speaker 3:That's the nonprofit industrial complex. Like, we should be just like, you know, when I I went to grad school for nonprofit management, and I remember this. And I I listened to it, and I was like, yes. This is it. I mean, the role of a nonprofit is to work itself out of a job to not exist.
Speaker 3:But as you articulated, Chaz, there is a self interest in as long as we're capitalisming of of being paid for your labor. And that it does not exclude the nonprofit sector and the people in it from having that pressure of economy to be able to provide for their families.
Speaker 4:Yeah. You know? And and, man, like, when when I hear people in nonprofit space talking about, well, I'm thinking about going to this other organization because this one doesn't pay enough. I'm just like again, this is me. Right?
Speaker 4:Like, I think getting paid 50,000 and up to just, like, be an advocate, be an organizer, I I kinda think that's a lot of money. I mean, because you'd you you your job is is is just it's not that hard. For me, it's not hard to build community. Like, you can't you you can't pay me enough to, like even if I wasn't getting paid. And I'm I'm I also took took a huge reduction, in my pay right now just because the the organization needs money to do other things.
Speaker 4:But even if I wasn't getting paid, I'm still gonna do the work. But, like, a lot of people, like, now their commitment to justice, their commitment to the fight, their commitment to abolition, their commitment to change is only based on benefits and income, and I think that's a huge problem. And I think what has happened is that the movement has been so swallowed up by c 3 nonprofit sector work that, and maybe this is, like, another really weird, like, evil diabolical, like, government operation, because by them by them monetizing movement work, it creates this, like, demand from workers, which I'm for, to get the things they want, but, like, now if you can't pay the workers, the organized advocates, all these folks in moving space, then the movement just doesn't happen. Right? And and another part too, going back to a little bit of what you said earlier, is that, I agree with you about the cooperative.
Speaker 4:As long as things are aligned and we all working towards the same goal, different tactics with the same goal, even with that. Right? Because Grassroots got, like let's say, Grassroots got 40 employees, and then we got 10. Like, how much money will we need to be able to sustain that? Somebody gonna have to take a cut, and now we start talking about that.
Speaker 4:People looking around like, well, hold on. You know what I mean? So just, like, how how truly committed are we to change as opposed to our own self interest?
Speaker 2:I I think it's about proximity. This is my thought on it. It's about proximity to the pain. Mhmm. You know, when you are directly impacted by the issues, I don't think for me Yeah.
Speaker 2:For me speaking
Speaker 4:But, Rob, you already know. Most people that that that are in our sector are not just as impacted.
Speaker 2:I think this is why they call you controversial.
Speaker 4:And be that as it may, but, you know, it's a lot of people that speak on topics, that we live through, that you live through way more than me, that Bill Wallace lived through, k Paul Wallace lived through. Mhmm. But there are people that speak on that and get way more money and opportunities than we do for whatever reason.
Speaker 2:It doesn't look like what I would imagine going back into the prison system when I'd look at organizations. And, I wanna just slightly shift a little bit. Another troubling thing I'm seeing on the horizon is people who are impacted, like becoming entrepreneurs of their own. I don't think there's anything wrong with, you know, again, like making yourself a unique figure, seeing yourself in a certain light or presenting yourself in a certain light so people know you're a specialist in this area. But I sit back, I kind of watch the trend happen when a lot of us went to the Feds back in the nineties and we came home.
Speaker 2:Some of the, you know, OGs, some of the people that had these really amazing stories that, you know, you write books about, they came home and then they became this attractive figure that people drew to because they had a story before they went to prison, and it's it's it's a it's a it's a miracle that they're still alive here to be of any value to the world, and that they wanna be of value, so these people are unique. But now it's like I'm watching on the social media and I'm watching in, the the LinkedIn spaces. People are like vying to become like a micro example of organization. They become an organization within themselves. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You know, that's just a thought that I'm now, you know, some people might somebody might look at me and say, well, Robert, you were kinda doing that too. That's, you know, subjective, and and I wouldn't necessarily take offense that somebody saw it that way. I think at the end of the day, you know, nobody knows anybody else's heart. Mhmm. You know, they only know what they see.
Speaker 2:And to me, going back to the of saying that to go back to the point about proximity to the pain, like, I don't really feel like I have the luxury of turning away from this cause. If I turn I've tried to do a regular job, and I remember finding myself almost feeling like I wanted to go back to getting high, you know, because it was that monotonous, that mundane, that divorced from my person. Right? But anyway, I don't want to belabor the point. I would just kinda highlighting that as, like, something I find myself wrestling with when I think about organizational work.
Speaker 2:I see you getting our attention.
Speaker 3:Well, just to say that, and to draw us back to the wisdom of doctor King, you know, these are these are the systems that are in place, and we're swimming in it. And it's an ocean. And so all of these, you know, Chaz, I'd love to have more conversations with you about this. Like, it as long as a tech bro tech is paying my mortgage. So that's where this is the yes and and the beauty of kin philosophy.
Speaker 3:The as long as, you know, tech bros are making $200,000 a year I want justice organizers to be making $400,000 a year because worth is being assigned to whatever labor is being, you know, conducted.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And and, you know, a a hour for this show is not enough time. By the way, I've listened before. I'm just like, y'all, it you need at least 2, maybe 3, but I I'll I'll leave on this note. I think, you know, I I I think the movement is gonna have a unique opportunity over the next 4 years, to to course correct. Right?
Speaker 4:I I think we've gotten too committed to, like, party politics. I think we've gotten too committed to, like, candidacy and, you know, elections and stuff like that. I think over the next 4 years with this, you know, our beloved cousin, Trump, that that we're going to have to reclaim, and reclaim the narrative of what we're fighting for and why. And I I think that's my biggest critique, especially younger folks in the movement, is that you have a righteous cause, and you have a righteous anger, but when people ask you why you're fighting for this, you don't answer it, or you get upset that you have to, answer that question. And it I think it's okay.
Speaker 4:Right? Like, there are a lot of people I mean, I I was posting videos of, my speech about Palestine, and believe it or not, black this black man was like, why do you care about this so much? And I told him. Right? And I took the time to to to explain my my my answers to him, and I think we need more of that.
Speaker 4:We can't assume that everybody is just aligned with us morally and ethically, the way we are, so we have to take the time to explain our work, show our work, and never give up. And most importantly, the movement has to understand, and, again, this is really dedicated to, like, c three folks. Like, if you do not have regular community folks, and by regular community folks, I mean, people outside of your organization
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:That are not paid staff
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:That are intricate parts of how you move and shift, you're doing it wrong. Right? Like, if you do not have community infused into how you move, then you're also part of the problem. So but I would love to come back so we can finish this conversation.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're welcome anytime.
Speaker 2:It was a great
Speaker 1:And I wanted to if I can just take just a second. Yeah. I wanted to challenge you too. Chaz. A while ago, you said community building, I think it was the direct quote, is easy.
Speaker 1:I think it's easy for you because you love the work you're doing and you're really good at it. But as we look around and look at the community building that's going on, you know, how much of it is going on? How easy is it? Mhmm. So, yeah, I just wanna throw that out there.
Speaker 4:I know we're out there.
Speaker 3:To be continued, y'all. But I'm
Speaker 4:a tell
Speaker 3:you what we
Speaker 1:do have to come back.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You you absolutely. Maybe we'll do part 2, next month because we don't have our guests yet. So we've got, y'all, we've been listening to the wisdom of Chaz Moore, brother Robert Tyrone Lilly, brother Jim Crosby. I'm your cohost Stacey Fraser. We are back, on February 6th.
Speaker 3:And, in 2 weeks, is my show Racism on the Levels, and I will be sitting here with Nika Arnold from the healing projects. And we're gonna get into a lot of good solidarity work.
Speaker 2:Who's coming on next?
Speaker 3:Immediately after this, we are gonna be listening to Democracy Now Mhmm. And,
Speaker 2:Good show to be followed by.
Speaker 3:That's right. So we'll see you all around. I mean, I I am my other show with love is the highest level, and I maintain that. So much love for y'all.
Speaker 2:Appreciate you, Chaz. Thank you.
Speaker 4:I I'll be back in February. I'm just gonna take that that slot. I'll be There
Speaker 3:you go. Alright, Jim.
Speaker 4:What are
Speaker 3:you gonna take us out on?
Speaker 1:I figured we'd go ahead and do a reprise of, we shall not be moved because I know brother Rob loves it. And, we did it last month, I think. And I'll start off with a Spanish, verse. No. No.
Speaker 1:No. No Smoveran.