Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
pj_wehry:
Hello, and welcome to Here today with Dr. Tiger Roholt professor at the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University And we're here today to talk about his book. Distracted from meaning, a philosophy of smart phones. Really excited about the topic today, Drroholt. thank you so much for coming on,
tiger_roholt:
P. J, thanks so much for inviting me and I'm really happy to be here.
pj_wehry:
So talk to us a little bit. Even in the acknowledgments. You know, you've been kind of piecing this book together from different places you've contributed. Um, Why this topic? What got you interested in this?
tiger_roholt:
Well, um, I mean, I guess like many of us, I've been noticing for a number of years people being distracted by their smart phones in various in person situations myself included, by the way, M, you know, at a dinner with family and friends at a college class at a concert at a football game on a walk on a hike. and like many of us, I had the Concern that this kind of distraction was becoming more pervasive, and I was concerned and interested in thinking about the negative effect of smart phone distraction. So what initially framed my thinking about this is that I wanted to understand what the impact of smart phone distraction might be the effect, and, but the characterization That I saw of this impact in various research and text seemed inadequate in certain ways, even though they got something right. What I found
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
was that people were focused on researchers and and others were focused on very particular effects, So for example, M texting at dinner results and failing to follow a conversation interacting with social media. A college class results in failing to understand some of what a professor says, and those kinds of characterizations of the negative impact of smart phone distraction get something right, but they seem to leave out a more fundamental problem with the distraction. I had a hunch that there was a way to characterize the distraction more generally,
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
and I found
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
it helped Full to think about people at dinner with friends or people in a college class room or at a concert as missing out on something more general. And then the question was you know what exactly are they missing out on, And my sort of you know, one way to think about this might be, are they missing out on some kind of enjoyment or pleasure? In other words, Does smart phone distraction make us less happy, and that didn't seem quite right to me after working with it for a while, and
pj_wehry:
Hm,
tiger_roholt:
so, after many months and years actually of reading talking, thinking and writing about this, I finally found my thesis, which was, which is that certain smart phone distraction interferes with our engagement and meaningful activities, and relatedly in Fears with the work that we do to shape our self identity. So smart phone distraction can result in our having less meaning in our lives, and smart phones can disrupt our identity work. So I found it fruitful to combine these three things, Smart phone distraction, meaningfulness and self identity, but that said, Um, As you know, I end the book in a positive Way by using this exploration of negative concerns to ultimately make some suggestions about how we can strive to use our smart phones more deliberately even to enhance meaningfulness in some situations,
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
I mean, sometimes, of course, the right thing to do is just put your phone on. Do not disturb and leave it in your bag. But my main goal of the book is not to get people to throw their smart phones away, but my Hope is that the book can contribute in some way to a more thoughtful integration of smart phones into our lives,
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
So that's
pj_wehry:
thank you. that's
tiger_roholt:
sort
pj_wehry:
yes.
tiger_roholt:
of setting out the setting the stage a little bit.
pj_wehry:
Absolutely. you did a tremendous job. thank you, M. Can you just I think at the start of this, Um, and it's where you started. Can you talk a little bit more about what distraction is you men? You mentioned the missing out part? Um,
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
What is distraction and how does that pop up?
tiger_roholt:
Well, uh, maybe it's helpful to think about it this way that often when we are multi tasking with our smart phones in one of these in person situations, like at dinner with family and friends or at a concert or in a college classroom, H, we think that we're actually doing two things at the same time, but actually what we're doing
pj_wehry:
M. I
tiger_roholt:
Task
pj_wehry:
can already see
tiger_roholt:
switching.
pj_wehry:
if this is going a sorry,
tiger_roholt:
I know, so we think we're doing two things at the same time, but actually we're switching back and forth between two activities. you know, testing with a friend on the one hand and on the other hand, following a conversation at dinner. And sometimes these two different tasks are somewhat complimentary, and sometimes they're very uncomplimentary. And what's interesting about It is that and before I forget, I'm going to mention some philosophers right now who I owe a debt to in this area, which is the philosopher Dian Michellfelder, Robert Rosenburger and the sociologist Jane Vincent, Who, some of the things I'm going to talk about touch on some of their work. Here's what's interesting about this multi tasking, which is actually task switching, is that when You are texting with a friend on your smart phone, there's a perceptual structure that goes along with that, and that perceptual structure involves Ou know. in the simplest way, the content that your friend is texting is in the foreground and in the background are your, You know environmental conditions. I mean, if you're if you're at a lecture and you're texting with a fried, And in the foreground is the friend and what you and the friends are talking about in the background is you know, whispers behind you, the lecturer talking, the heads moving in front of you of people sitting in front of you. That stuff is all in the background and in the foreground is your texting and the friend that you're texting with. Now that kind of perceptual structure often goes unnoticed. Yeah, uh, we don't realize that we're actually shifting back and forth between two very different perceptual structures. Um, and what's even worse is that we text so often in so many different situations that we rehearse that perceptual structure that's particular to the phone so many times of the day in so many different places that it's very ingrained. Um, it's difficult to con Roll. It's kind of sticky and
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
so switching back between these two perceptural structures, where the where the phone structure is so ingrained we don't notice we're doing this, and what often happens is that we we lose time. We don't do it as quickly as we think we do it. So sometimes you notice if you're around somebody who's using their smart phone. sometimes you'll notice that they lose A couple of seconds or they don't. Sometimes they're gone for a little bit longer than they thought they were, And so this is the explanation for that. So the point is, the big point is about this perceptual structure, business, and the stickiness of it is that
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
this task switching that we're doing in these situations is slower than we think it is. It drags because of these ingrained perceptual structures. And so that creates the conditions For distraction. Because if you're somewhere like a lecture or a dinner or a concert, and there's something in person that you are trying to pay attention to When you start task switching, Uh, you're dealing with these alternate, inverted, in some cases, perceptual structures, and it's just quite difficult to keep both things going at the same time, and sometimes I mean we'll talk about later. that. sometimes, even just the fact of checking out, sometimes to check into your smart phone destroys a kind of evolving developing experience of the main situation. But so that's that's sort of the way that I set up thinking about distraction with a smart phone. Is that there's this moving back and forth and that just necessarily results in a kind of distraction.
pj_wehry:
So let me just make sure I'm on the right track. I think I understand what you're talking about, so distraction. One way to define it would be uh, unnoticed, temporal or unnoticed, time loss or temporal loss because of perceptual structure switching.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, I mean one thing that's interesting to think about is that it's sort of the way that you define distraction. The way that you define what's problematic about certain kinds of distraction depends upon what you're distracted from, and what kind of perceptual and cognitive requirements Are there? You know what sort of perceptual structure and what sort of cognitive attention is required in order to engage in something? So for example, Um, you know, if you're at a dinner with friends, there are a lot of different things that. in order to really get the most of the experience that you need to be paying attention to Um. and so H Ou know, being distracted from some of those things will have an effect, and the distract And the amount of distraction will have a different effect depending upon what you're distracted from, and ultimately the way that I end up talking about this is, you know, I said that, one of the main claims I make is that we can be distracted from meaningful activities from our smart phones from task switching. And so it turns out that For for an activity to be potentially meaningful Requires a pretty significant dedicated kind of engagement. So
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
meaningful activities. it's very easy to be pulled away by your shone from your phone by a meaningful activity or by something in your phone Point is, let me say that again,
pj_wehry:
I'm track with you, but
tiger_roholt:
If
pj_wehry:
go ahead, yeahsayyeah.
tiger_roholt:
yeah, different different kinds of situations require different kinds of engagement, and meaningful activities require A dedicated close kind of engagement. and so being pulled away on your phone even just for a short time can have a devastating effect on keeping up with a meaningful activity that you're engaged with.
pj_wehry:
You know, I think boredom comes up, you know, as I'm looking through here, and one of the thing that's really interesting is we use boredom. equivocally. there's boredom because something is just not interesting right So if there's a conversation happening at the table and it is a story you've heard before, H.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
H, you know, and the person is not a good story teller and it's a long Story and it is not an interesting one. Yeah, I mean, that's just boring, but there's also the feeling. Uh, it's a similar feeling and I think it does a similar thing in our brains, which is why we sometimes call it boredom. But when something is hard, when something
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
takes a lot of attention right, so
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
some things cannot be explained in thirty seconds. Some things take
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
twenty minutes, and you won't under. And unless you pay attention the whole twenty minutes, the whole sixty minutes, and that feeling that kind of like itching in your brain, where like that's hard work in the same way that D be. it'd be hard work to listen to someone talk about like I don't know their great aunt garden. That didn't win any prizes or anything. You know. It's like like I don't you look at that N you're like I'm not losing anything. But then you look at, It's a similar sensation and we're working similar muscles. I think if that's In my tracking, we do there. it's like. Is there something to that like? kind of like the way that different activities get folded in and we lose uh, meaningful ones and meaningless ones. If that makes sense,
tiger_roholt:
Right. well, What's particularly tricky about meaningful activities is that they require a kind of dedicated continuous engagement
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
in order to unlock what's interesting and valuable about them. Ah, so it's sometimes the case, for example, that a meaningful activity will have various different kinds of valuable elements. In some of those elements Will be easy to detect, and some of them will be elements that only emerge through the relations of other elements. Here's an example of something like this and stand up comedy. There's a phenomenon or a sort of a technique, or sort of a feature of stand up comedy called Call backs, where Um, you know a comic. In an early part They're set, will say something funny or tell a joke or tell a funny story, And then later on it could be twenty minutes later. They say something different that's funny or tell a different joke, and it resonates with that earlier joke in a way that constitutes what they call a call back. And so that's a relational property of the stand up comedy. And you know, I'm saying that stand up comedy as can be a potentially meaning foot Activity. and I could say some things about. You know what kind of stand up comedy is high quality enough to really fit into that category? But the point is that these are pretty subtle features. something like a call back that only becomes uh recognizable if you're paying attention to the whole set, including these subtle relations between different parts of the set. Hum, so yea, so so that you know, Like what you're saying about boredom. I mean, someone could be a little bit bored by Uh, some story, and in the comedy set, you know about half way through, and if they check out at the wrong time, they might not hear the second joke at all and then not get the call back, or they might check out immediately after they hear the second joke And then not have the time to recognize this residence between these two different jokes. So I'm interested in in talking about meaningful activities. I'm interested in these very subtle features of meaningful activities and some of them are relational. And so
pj_wehry:
I,
tiger_roholt:
you know, that's one reason why such such dedicated engagement is required in order to unlock the meaning and these activities.
pj_wehry:
Uh. So to go back to my example, even as you say relational,
tiger_roholt:
M.
pj_wehry:
I realized. Um, So we're talking like you know your grandma is talking about her great aunt, and you've heard the story before, so you already know what's coming, and so, on the one hand, there are features there that you're like you're like. I'm not going to get anything from this. But what you're talking about with the relational side of it
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
is if I pull out my phone, there is a relational cost of my grandma. Even if the story itself is boring. The attentiveness is Uh, you know, depending on how you want to spend time with your grandma, and that relationship like that costs something right, you are signaling to her that she's not worth your time. Of course, you know, some might say that maybe she should be a little bit more self aware, but that's that is all part of that interplay and that that itself is meaningful. That intreplay. is. That is that kind of one of those Like. Because I obviously am thinking about the story, but there's that relational interplay. Is that one of those subtle things that you're talking about?
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, yeah, you're talking about. You know a couple of different interesting things there. I mean, the first thing is that you know when you're listening to. I don't know. I also had grandparents, who, who would tell the same stories you know repeatedly. And sometimes what's interesting about that is that they know that these stories are going to become meaningful to you At of point in your life where you have certain experiences that you haven't had yet, And
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
so it's possible if you have really wise grandparents that you'll hear a story once and you'll be about to hear it again and it will be boring, But it's possible that you've had some experiences in the intermediate time, where now there's some residence in that story so that it could become manful. Um, I'm kind of fascinated with that. I mean, my. So So that's the first, the first thing,
pj_wehry:
Well if I don't,
tiger_roholt:
but this,
pj_wehry:
if you don't mind, Uh,
tiger_roholt:
sure,
pj_wehry:
I mean we've all I think, experience that with books right, like there's a book that
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
we read too young, Right and then all a sudden you
tiger_roholt:
Right,
pj_wehry:
read it the second time you're like, Oh, that was me. That wasn't the book that was me. Sorry, I just like.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Yeah, I think we
tiger_roholt:
right,
pj_wehry:
all
tiger_roholt:
exactly
pj_wehry:
understand that.
tiger_roholt:
yeah. And then the other point that you're making is about interaction between people and the interesting way that smart phones signal socially disengagement. You know,
pj_wehry:
Yeah.
tiger_roholt:
when you reach for your phone, that signals to the people around you that you're disengaging, and that sometimes implies a lack of Interest or some other kinds of negative attitudes, And that can, but even forget that, even just the disengagement, even though it's clear that when someone, especially when you think about these perceptual structures that I was talking about, when you start looking at your phone, take your phone out and start texting you, You disappear from this in in person context, and the person Sitting across from you recognizes that, And so it has a negative effect on the conversation and your relationship. I mean, one of the things that I talk about near the end of the book is also that, in order to shape our self identities, we do things in the world, and we do things in social context, And we need social context in order to These actions that help us to shape our self identities. Um, you know, for example, Uh, if someone is working to shape the self identity of a drummer, that person needs to be engaging with other musicians. Uh needs to be listened to by audience members. When that person talks about rhythms during their day with someone, they need to be heard There. all sorts of actions that someone takes. You know, someone's not a drummer. Just by deciding I'm a drummer, may have to do a lot of things in order to shape that identity and we, And so the big point is about what you're saying for me is that we need functioning social environments in order to shape our self identities. And here I'm drawing from philosophers like Martin Hediger and Hubert Drips, and William Blatner. Um, about this idea of You, I'm also drawing broadly on the existential tradition of creating yourself. That that happens through what you do, And so I mean, wow, I mean you, it becomes so important that you have that social interaction when you're trying to do that identity work that when someone checks out for a few minutes, and that signals to the person that they're sitting across from, I'm not listening to you any more, and I kind of maybe don't care so much about what you're saying That can have a pretty devastating effect. I mean, I'll give you an example of something that I witnessed that really got me Thinking about this. is that I was going to teaching a class for philosophy majors, kind of a small class, You, kind of an upper level undergraduate class and one really thoughtful philosophy major started making a really complex point, you know, Raised her hand, started making a really complex point and started to really uh, walk through this observation in this Claim about a text that we were reading, and
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
when she was about thirty seconds into making this really complex point, the person the student sitting right next to her took out his phone and started doing something that looked like maybe scrolling social media. And so I, I had a whole sequence of thoughts you know, flashed in front of my mind, and then in subsequent weeks repeatedly flashed through my mind. My first thought was you know, I'm not doing my job Ah well as a professor in sort of setting this learning environment, so that
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
uh, you know, I need to come up with some some technology restrictions or something in my class, so his doesn't happen because this is bad for student learning. That was my first thought. My second thought was something like, You know, the student who took out his phone was being impolite and that's too bad. and then my my third thought, which took frankly months. That uh, um, this person who was trying to develop this complex point was doing what Hediger calls taking a stand on her being. She was
pj_wehry:
Hm,
tiger_roholt:
trying to give some shape to her self identity. She was developing the intellectual dimension of her self identity, and she needs this social environment in order to do that. And when someone in that social environment or it's you know, different for different. This is complicated because it depends on how many people do you need to do that work? How sensitive are you to people not paying attention to you? It's complicated and I go through this in the book, But um, but that person sitting next to her she noticed the person sitting next to her taking out his phone, and that sort of undermined the social environment where she was trying to create an aspect of her Self identity, so I really worry about. I worry about the integrity of the social fabric where meaningful activities are happening, and through those meaningful activities people are creating their self identities, And that's a a bunch of stuff that's happening that we don't really think about. Um, Actually, you know, I remember, I didn't. I wish I had seen this before Wrote the book, but I didn't But Jack White, who's the White Stripes? Jack White?
pj_wehry:
Familiar, Yes,
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, he. There was an interview he did where he talked about his problems with audiences using smart phones and
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
he was. He's one of these musicians who has the audiences put their phones in a zip lock that locks and they can't access until they leave the venue. All that kind of stuff. He's pretty serious about it, but he had Really interesting way of talking about this, which is similar. He said that he doesn't like to write a set list in advance. He likes to interact with the audience in a way that helps him to determine which song should come next. You know, he shapes his set based on the way audiences react to the music he's playing, and you know I assume what the energy is like in the room and all that kind of stuff. And his claim is that he needs that dedicated engagement from the audience. My words, you know not his, but he needs that kind of dedicated engagement in order to create his show the way he wants it to go. So that's another interesting example of the kind of social. The importance of the social fabric of engagement in not only constituting a meaningful Activity but also in creating the space where individuals can shape their their self identities.
pj_wehry:
I love that you used Jack White as an example. I don't think I saw that particular interview, but I've heard him talk about this kind of stuff before. And what's really interesting even as you talk about self identity is when he talks about that like, Don't remember the exact word you use like that dedicated attention that
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
efor him, he normally talks about a struggle or uses like metaphors for conflict. that he is fighting himself and fighting the music, which is very much.
tiger_roholt:
That's
pj_wehry:
especially
tiger_roholt:
great.
pj_wehry:
as you. You listen to. His music
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
is very much the work of his self identity, Right like that's like a
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
part of that's the way he conceives of it. But and for him, and for like as you were talking through all of this Feedback is very important, right it's
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
it's that there's
tiger_roholt:
right,
pj_wehry:
proper
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
feedback and the reason, I think, sometimes because of the way our culture functions, we struggle with this. a lot of my own philosophical work work like class work, I mean, but the I did a lot of reading in Gatamer and Recore, and the Gatamer was taking from Jenbatista Vico, and I returned to this over and over again, especially a home school my kids, so It keeps me honest, But Uhvico's, critique of Da Cart, one of the first critiques of Cartesian philosophy was This doesn't work with kids right,
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
And this idea of like pulling things apart like you have to, You have to teach them and you have to give them cues. And this this idea of like, Oh, we need social people Like Well, I don't need other people to form my own self
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
identity and it's like you may not now. You know one. I disagree with you, but you might argue that you might not need it now, but you most certainly need it when you're a kid and everyone is a kid
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
at some point and so like, without a doubt, like it is not M. whether someone would want to argue with you about. you know. Oh, you know, she just needs to like express herself, whether that that guy is paying attention or not right. Like if everyone took out a smart phone, she could still express herself. It's like if you do that to a kid, Like, without that the self identity Work that they. You know, when you get to be an adult, there's a level of maturity where you can handle improper feedback.
tiger_roholt:
Hm.
pj_wehry:
Kids don't have that right.
tiger_roholt:
That's interesting
pj_wehry:
Like
tiger_roholt:
now,
pj_wehry:
so, I mean like I'm just saying, It's like kind of the H. I think your argument holds even in that situation in the in the class room right,
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
but I mean as like, kind of like a. If anyone were to contest it, it's like it becomes very clear in the pedagogical studies are very clear that like, We have to have that proper feedback at a young age. And I mean this is to my shame, but I think a lot of parents in recent times have experienced this. I have had my kid come up and move the phone as I am looking at it to get me to talk
tiger_roholt:
M,
pj_wehry:
to them right
tiger_roholt:
yeah, that's
pj_wehry:
And
tiger_roholt:
interesting.
pj_wehry:
this is
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
a common thing right
tiger_roholt:
hm,
pj_wehry:
because they're like I'm not getting what I need and I'm like,
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
Oh, that's my bad as a parent Right. most
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
of the time. Sometimes I'm like you have enough. but
tiger_roholt:
M.
pj_wehry:
But most of the time they're right, so I don't know if that's that. Just felt like a
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
little adendum on there. I think is useful to think
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
about.
tiger_roholt:
yeah. well, I mean that's fascinating. I mean, it's fascinating what you say that children are likely even more sensitive to the need for this kind of recognition and social interaction for understanding themselves. I mean the way that that Hubert drives talks about this. Is this creating your self identity is a kind of Self interpretation. Like trying to understand what you're doing. I was thinking about the way that, in particular, another philosopher who is really good on this is William Blatner. In his guide book, It's called guidebook, but it's It's a book about reading being in time and hides being in time and blatner.
pj_wehry:
I knew I had seen that name. I have it on my shelf.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, yeah, it's a great book
pj_wehry:
Sorry, go ahead,
tiger_roholt:
and Blatner makes ver Clear something that Hyder talks about in terms of being with, which
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
is that in being in time, Blatner says that our now I'm going to, I'm going to adjust some words to suit my purposes here. But our self identity, our self identities are interconnected and so he gives
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
these nice examples that that my identity as a father depends on my children. My my identity as a pro Fessor depends on not just the identity of my students, but the work they do to create their identities is necessarily entangled with the work I do to create my identity. I mean, if a teacher ever tries to teach a class by just focusing on the chalk board or white board and ignoring their students, you find that it doesn't work. I mean, there needs to be A kind of interaction in the room, and the interaction in the room has to be an interaction where students are doing their identity work. you know, one student might be a butting philosopher, another student might be a strategic learner, another student might be a class clown. You know, whatever the variety of self identities they're creating, there's
pj_wehry:
I'm
tiger_roholt:
a
pj_wehry:
glad you mentioned
tiger_roholt:
and
pj_wehry:
me. thank you.
tiger_roholt:
there's
pj_wehry:
sorry.
tiger_roholt:
a necessary, necessary kind of intermingling. That's really fascinating. And
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
same thing in the music case. I mean a We were talking about. you know, these Jack White examples, Um, one of the things that a good drummer does in a live performance is first of all, set tempos and grooves for the band, but also tap into the energy of the audience in order to figure out what tempo is appropriate at this time in this venue on this night, and then also to sometimes push Audience a little bit so. in order for the subtle work that a drummer does in set setting tempos in groups, they have to be completely in tune and in sink with what the audience is giving them. And I think this is kind of related to some of these things that Jack White says, which is so fascinating, which I would have. I write a lot about musical performance and the book I take musical performance as an example of what Albert Borkman calls a Phoca practice, Which is a meaningful activity, according to me, And and I set the project for myself of trying to make the case that musical performance is a vocal practice and a meaningful activity. But I wish I would have had that Jack White interview before I wrote the book.
pj_wehry:
Um, So when your book sells out and the second printing comes out,
tiger_roholt:
Yea, I have to
pj_wehry:
you
tiger_roholt:
add
pj_wehry:
can
tiger_roholt:
that,
pj_wehry:
add. you can add. The other thing. What you just described is talked about almost exactly like that. In Gademer's relevance of the beautiful, he talks about rhythm
tiger_roholt:
M.
pj_wehry:
and the way that the difference between rhythm and timing S the interplay between the musician and the audience.
tiger_roholt:
Oh, that's
pj_wehry:
So
tiger_roholt:
great.
pj_wehry:
anyways,
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Yeah, so
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
that was Uh, ah, even as you were talking there, and we're talking about the professor who does not engage with the students. right who just
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
stands out there in lectures. Um, that is, still, it's a different set of demands, but it's still a demand on the students and it seems like there is like, almost like a continual, more spectrum of more authoritative stance and a more diologic stance. If that makes
tiger_roholt:
Oh,
pj_wehry:
sense,
tiger_roholt:
that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
pj_wehry:
And that's like, I mean, even to use Jack White. I know he's also famous for he left in the middle of a set because the audience wasn't giving him what he wanted.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah.
pj_wehry:
Nd Tha would defnitely be a more authoritative stance,
tiger_roholt:
yeah, that's
pj_wehry:
right
tiger_roholt:
great.
pj_wehry:
like you're
tiger_roholt:
yeah.
pj_wehry:
like you are not following me and that does
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
not count like
tiger_roholt:
that's funny.
pj_wehry:
you can't do that. But then we see this Like with teaching styles like that's a again, a question of the power dynamic and the the self identity work. What does it mean Be a professor when the professor is more authoritative and just like now, we'll take questions at the end or I will call on you instead of like Um. something where it's more like the Socratic method, for instance, which is very
tiger_roholt:
Yeah.
pj_wehry:
like Um. but in both cases there is self identity work. You know, I remember. I had
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Dr. Lewis Gordon on and he talked about. He starts off his classes a saying, I am not a teacher. I am just a more advanced student. A very different stance
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, I like
pj_wehry:
from
tiger_roholt:
that.
pj_wehry:
like Hey, I am Dr. So and so this is my
tiger_roholt:
Hm.
pj_wehry:
class? Fifty percent of you are going to fail. You know like that's
tiger_roholt:
Yeah. okay, well, yeah, I mean, I really love that that approach that you say about I'm a student, too. I mean, I really, when I teach my favorite thing to do when I teach is to start all over again with
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
the text that we're working on, and to really think about them freshly with the students, and sometimes I discover by doing that that I learned new things that I didn't know before just by going through this all over again With this group of people. So I really love this discussion based interaction approach to teaching Um. But okay, but even for the kind of a teacher who is a lecturer and somewhat authoritarian, Um, that person still needs the students to pay attention to write papers to come to office hours. Ou know
pj_wehry:
Right.
tiger_roholt:
they still need the St. S to do the identity work that they're doing to be students in order for
pj_wehry:
Exactly
tiger_roholt:
the teacher to do the.
pj_wehry:
yes,
tiger_roholt:
It's
pj_wehry:
yeah,
tiger_roholt:
just different, you know.
pj_wehry:
right, right, right. and that's and these are all inter subjective, Like these social context, Exactly what you're talking about. And I think this is a great point. like to transition because you know I got really excited about what you're talking about, and obviously I've done some similar work so I can talk about this all day, but I don't want to miss talking about the inter Play between focal things and focal
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
practices and
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
identity work, because that's
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
obviously a major chunk of this
tiger_roholt:
Right.
pj_wehry:
of your work here.
tiger_roholt:
I was just thinking the same thing. Okay. let me set the stage. What we need to know is what makes something meaningful. What makes an activity meaningful Because you know, as I said, the main claim that I'm trying to explore is the idea that smart phones can interfere with the engagement in meaningful activities and so result in less meaning in your life. If you're not Careful with the kind of smart phone work you do in uh, in personal activities that are potentially meaningful. So the question is what makes something meaningful and the simplest way to talk about it is through the work of Susan Wolf, who
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
has this view of meaning meaning in life, and what Susan Wolf says is that an activity is meaningful if and here are two necessary conditions, The subject is fulfilled by it. So, in other words, if you're passionate about something that's satisfying one necessary condition for something to be meaningful. If you're passionate about it, you're gripped by it. That's what she calls the subjective condition, and then the other one is. In order for an activity to be meaningful, it must be what she says at first, is objectively valuable, but for those are the two necessar Conditions, subjective fulfillment and objective value. But she says about this second condition, objective value. she doesn't. She acknowledges that she doesn't have an account of objective value and no one should expect her to, because it's a difficult thing to do. But then she, but then she realizes that I think she realizes this is my interpretation. that really, very strict account of objective value would really miss the mark of the kind of Ah category that we're talking about. And so what she ends up saying is that that, really what she's looking for is a way of determining whether an activity is valuable, independent of the subjects attitudes. So what she's saying
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
is in order for an activity to be meaningful, it must be valuable in some way in addition to your passion for it. And so she's looking for Some notion of value in addition to a person's passion. And if you have those two things, if you have, If you're passionate about an activity, and if that activity is valuable in some way independent of your passion, then that's a potentially meaningful Well, that is a meaningful activity. And uh, now what I bring in Albert Borton's discussion of focal things and prac. This is as a way of trying to say more about that objective condition, which, after she sort of lightens it, as I just described. she just refers to it as Is this activity worth while? So that's what we're trying to figure out. in addition to Are you passionate about it? Is it worth while? and I bring in this notion of vocal things and practices in order to try to say something about what it would mean for an activity to be worth While, And so I'll say, Should I say a little bit about that about how that might
pj_wehry:
Please.
tiger_roholt:
work? Okay, So Albert Portman has this idea that there are certain kinds of practices that are vocal practices, And here are some examples, a really wide range of things that are fascinating running Piking. these are all vocal practices playing music. Ah, a dinner with family and friends, which he calls the culture of the table, Carpentry, gardening, Whole wide range of things that he thinks are vocal practices And he doesn't use the word meaning, but he uses a lot of terms that are I claim close enough to being synonymous, so that we can say that vocal practices are meaningful. Now Remember what we're trying to do is figure out how can we say How can we establish that these vocal practices are worth while, in the sense that satisfies Susan Wolf's condition, and Borkman says that vocal Ractices preserve or safeguard vocal things, And so he pairs up this interesting set of practices and things. so he says, for example, that a dinner with the family or friends, which he calls the culture of the table, That's a vocal practice, safeguards the meal. The meal is the vocal thing, um musical performance Poca practice. According to me, not Borkman, musical performance, vocal practice safeguard Musical instruments. a vocal thing. Borkman does say that musical instruments are vocal things. So when we take these together, why what is a vocal thing and what is a vocal practice? Here's a quick point that I can make in order to say why this discussion of vocal practices and vocal things helps us to understand why an activity can be meaningful. A vocal thing, like a musical instrument, connects a context And it anchors the local practice of musical performance. And so I mean, what would that look like? It's like a guitar connects a guitarist to music. The guitar connects the guitarist to other musicians. the guitar connects the guitarist to audience members. The guitar even connects the guitarist to guitarist who were alive fifty years ago through certain styles Playing. So my one of my points is that this connecting work it's almost like these vocal things, like a guitar or also like, Um, Well, I just leave a guitar to keep it straight forward. It's almost like they have tentacles that reach out and connect the context, or in Borgmon's terms, which are very hidigarian, gather a world that these vocal things gather a world somemhost like they have Tentacles that reach out to connect up that context. And I think that my, my point here is that that connecting of a context establishes that that vocal practice is worth while, Establishes these connections that make it worth while that make it valuable in addition to merely being something that you're passionate about. And that's enough for us to say that a vocal practice like musical performance or Cal practice like a dinner with friends or focal practice, like a certain kind of stand up comedy is worth while it's meaningful in addition to just one's passion for it. And that's enough to fill out. I think Susan Wolf's theory of meaning in life, and then the big, uh, you know, point about smart phones. Here is that being engaged in a focal practice and focal thing has very high Demand of attention. dedicated experiences that develop and evolve. This is where I bring in John Doe. in the book, and smart phone distraction is no longer a mere distraction from some end or task, but now it's distraction from engagement with all of those things that are involved in that vocal practice. and once you get distracted from like I was taking about the call back, Once you get in stand up comedy, once you get distracted from these subtle features, then you're much less likely to be passionate about an activity because you're not engaged. You're not unlocking all of the potentially meaningful valuable things of a pocal practice.
pj_wehry:
Is it okay if I put it for me? I'm and I hope it's not too grand of an approach. But to put it in almost Hydegarian terms, you're imbedding these things in the focal thing is embedding the focal practice in context, in this case in in history, In and this is where you know a lot of Hydigers work on art, and like the temple, Rev, Vials the world, basically that you are imbedding being in time and thereby giving it meaning. And so when you shorten the focal practice, when you shorten the focal time, it's not just that you are losing this meaningful activity, is that you are shrinking your world.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, I think that's interesting, and yeah, this idea of a focus practice. Think about an example like a Thanksgiving dinner
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
and all of the traditions and all of the activities that go along with the Thanksgiving dinner. That's a vocal practice.
pj_wehry:
Hm,
tiger_roholt:
You know, people bring mashed potatoes. Somebody else brings wine. You help cook. you sit down at the table. Maybe people say some things about what they're thankful for. There's conversation and dinner after dinner. Maybe people play football. Maybe they watch football. Maybe they don't have anything to do with football at all, But
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
there's more Conversation after dinner and those are all traditions and uh activities that preserve a certain kind of contextual meaning. And yeah, that those are the kind of concrete details I like to think about when trying
pj_wehry:
Yes,
tiger_roholt:
to understand. What is it that makes that phoca practice worth while. In addition to just being passionate about it, I mean, some Eople love Thanksgiving
pj_wehry:
Right,
tiger_roholt:
dinner for all this stuff, and that's not enough to make it meaningful. But if it's worth while, because it draws in all of these traditions and all of these uh, recurring activities that add value to it. It's just like the music case. Um, you know, you think about something like stand up comedy where if the stand up comedy is really good, it results in you and your friends not just Sharing laughter, but also talking about later. the things that the comedian made you think about about society or about your own place in the world. And so yah. similarly, I'm interested in practices and connections, and this this what you said about gathering the world, And you know, the thing that Albert Bergman is worried about is that one by one we replace Focal practices with technological devices
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
and you know, so, for example, Borkman says he's worried that we replace a family dinner or a dinner with friends with what he calls technological food, which is like microwavable food. Or he's worried that we replace learning how to play musical instruments with spotify, and so our cultures. One reason why this is interesting to me is that our culture has this tend See toward convenience and efficiency, which tends to bring about the breakdown of vocal practices. And so it's interesting to think about vocal practices as something meaningful to preserve. And then my worry is that the serial task switching involved in using a smart phone in these context Has such a negative effect on a person's engagement in the context that you don't tap into or unlock all of these valuable elements of the context, And so then it can't become meaningful for you.
pj_wehry:
Uh, Kind of, I think it's tied and that's obvious. I'm going to ask it. Do you think the length of the narratives we engage in is part of this question? You know, even as you talk about Thanksgiving to Thanksgiving to Thanksgiving,
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
and then you talk about listening for long, you know. Obviously, that's what
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
try to do here like listening to like this idea that a beginning Middle and an end. Uh, I spent some time on tik Tok, and I was stunned by how much it changed my brain like I like. I don't. even it was. so I felt more distracted. M. I got ear worms from music, but because of the way that tik tok works, I don't know how familiar are with it. Um,
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
the.
tiger_roholt:
I mean, I'm I'm
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
very familiar with smart pines, but I've sort of steered clear somewhat of tiktok,
pj_wehry:
Good
tiger_roholt:
but I
pj_wehry:
for you.
tiger_roholt:
encounter it a lot through
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
my partner.
pj_wehry:
um, So there are they play? what they'll show different videos according to the same audio clip,
tiger_roholt:
Hm,
pj_wehry:
Right, And that's one of the ways that it chains together videos. And so what happens is you listen to the same thirty seconds of audio over and over and over again, And what I found myself doing is, instead of like hearing a song in my head one, I heard music in my head more often And it was whatever was most popular in Tiktok, and I only heard that twenty to thirty seconds of whatever that clip was, I did not hear the whole song. It was just that repeating over and over again. and and it just I literally could feel shaping my brain. Don't and I don't have neurological studies. for that. I'm sure that the people are working on that, but that it feels like the the length of the narrative. The, and By that, I mean just beginning the middle in the end Like you can have like a conversation like that. Uh, feels like it's part of this discussion when you talk about
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
engagement. Um,
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
maybe the structure of engagement Is that the right way to
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
think about that?
tiger_roholt:
yeah, yeah, this is why I talk about John Doe in the book, Which is what. I bring up his concept of what he calls and experience, and I adjusted
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
a little bit, and I and I call it a developed experience.
pj_wehry:
Right,
tiger_roholt:
This is a way that scholars sometimes refer to this concept of an experience. But what I mean, what you're saying I think is exactly right. And what I try to do with Doe is to try to say more about what engagement in a meaningful activity really amounts to. And
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
what do I says? This is really along the lines of what you're talking about, But your way of doing it was interesting. De says that there are. I mean. it's funny because Due is writing in the nineteen thirties and there's a text where he sort of laments the degradation of experience in the hustle and bustle of our modern work, Then he,
pj_wehry:
Uh,
tiger_roholt:
in the
pj_wehry:
uh,
tiger_roholt:
like, Wait, if you could see it now he would be.
pj_wehry:
Oh, gosh,
tiger_roholt:
He would have
pj_wehry:
yeah,
tiger_roholt:
a heart attack. But but what's fascinating about does account of experience is that he sees the structure of experience Es, just like what you said as consisting of phases of activity and taking in an activity and taking in, He calls it doing and undergoing, but not just that, but also the relations between these phases. Think about the call back example. I was talking about stand up comedy,
pj_wehry:
Right,
tiger_roholt:
So we not only have to be aware of our perceptual and cognitive activity, we have to be aware of what we're undergoing as a result of the activity. and then do he says, we have to be aware of the relations between the doing and undergoing, And then what he says is, which is fascinating is that long experiences have a care Or a qualitative character that he calls a pervasive quality, and he thinks
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
that it emerges slowly through this doing and undergoing. And so I think it's even just. I mean, you can think about. this is what I'm thinking of in the back of my mind when I talk about call backs. Another interesting example is in philosophy, the idea that you bank Statement that functions as a conclusion, you make another set of statements that function as premises, and then you wonder if the conclusion follows from the premises, and that's an inference, and that's a relational property that you only perceive if you're following this experience of exploring these statements and their relations, And so just Long story short, The fascinating thing. Once you realize that in order to unlock a meaningful experience you need this extended engagement, then it becomes really alarming that what happens when you switch your perceptual structure into your phone, is that you abort this developing experience and it's evolving perceptual quality. You just cut it off and you can't. It's not like your, You know a nurse who is sorting pills into little white cups where if you realize you're distracted you can make a correction and fix the cups. This is a case where there's an evolving developing experience and if you get distracted from it, you aboard it, you can't go back. You have to start over again. and the problem within person events is you can't start them and stop them. According to your own smart phone Work, they're just happening. so yeah, I think I think what you're saying is really crucial. That engagement has a structure it's developing and there's a high cost to pay for checking out.
pj_wehry:
Uh, I think a clear example. What you're talking about the having to go back. We've all been distracted while reading and
tiger_roholt:
Hm.
pj_wehry:
we go over the words and then the only. I mean, that's a great example of a pervasive experience.
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
Your only solution is to go back right. You
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
can't just like. I mean, you can't. Depending on the book is really bad. Maybe you just skip ahead, but but you would? You would lose something fundamental about the book. I will
tiger_roholt:
That's a great
pj_wehry:
And
tiger_roholt:
point.
pj_wehry:
I'm curious. There's a lot of vocabulary floating round. I love the way that use different philosophers. Um, you know, do and hideger together is know you have those two different traditions. But when
tiger_roholt:
Hm.
pj_wehry:
you said, developed experience When I saw that chapter title, My first thought was wisdom. Like That's a way of thinking about what wisdom is. Do you think that in some ways like this idea of this attentive structure Right? Because wisdom isn't just experience right. it's not just like. if you're like, you know if you're older, you're wiser like it's about developed experience.
tiger_roholt:
M.
pj_wehry:
Do you think do you see this when you talk about? Maybe it's a way to help people understand the implications that the switching of perceptual structures is uh, causing a loss of wisdom.
tiger_roholt:
You know, I don't know what to say about wisdom. To be honest,
pj_wehry:
Yeah,
tiger_roholt:
but I think, but you're definitely right that you know when we think of examples, like like reading a book or like trying to follow an argument, think what it's like in a in a class, a philosophy class where
pj_wehry:
Right.
tiger_roholt:
someone's making a claim, someone's exploring the premises to support the claim. Someone then considers an objection. Then there's a rejoinder to the object From the perspective of the person who made the original claim. Then the original claim is adjusted to. you know, so, in order to even just follow the unfolding of philosophical argument, you have to be attentive continuously and you can't just check in and out, and you have to you know what I like about these relational examples, like inference and call backs
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
or groves And music is that is that there there qualities that emerge only when you're attentive to the relations. And so you definitely need this continuous perspective Ye. it's interesting.
pj_wehry:
What I love about the classroom. Example used is that doesn't have to be smart phones. I think everyone's experienced someone coming in in the middle of a really good discussion or argument
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
that's been going on for a while. In the class room they come in and they make a point that they think is really good, and everyone
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
turns looks says No. We said we talked about that twenty minutes ago, right like
tiger_roholt:
Yeah, yeah,
pj_wehry:
you had to be here, Um
tiger_roholt:
yeah,
pj_wehry:
Dorahole. it has been an absolute pleasure for our audience. If you could give one take away. what
tiger_roholt:
Yeah,
pj_wehry:
would it be?
tiger_roholt:
okay. I do end the book with some thoughts about some positive thoughts
pj_wehry:
Yeah?
tiger_roholt:
that emerge from all of this sort of concern. and one thing I say is that my my first hope is that just making people aware of the difficulties
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
of distraction. Um, you know the perceptual structures. Um, you know what it is For something to be meaningful That even that making people aware of that might help to just clarify what's happening enough to encourage people to make some changes. Here. S some simple changes.
pj_wehry:
Hm,
tiger_roholt:
It's I think important to become conscious of the distinction between on task smart phone use and off task smart phone. Use something
pj_wehry:
M,
tiger_roholt:
that's relevant to in person situation is on task. something that's irrelevant Off task. Avoid the off task. Use in any situation that's potentially meaningful and you know, can we do? Can we use our smart phones to do one thing at a time? That's sort of something we have to try to learn how to do, I think,
pj_wehry:
Uh, uh,
tiger_roholt:
and one way to do that is to really use a Do not disturb feature. A lot. Uh, the sort of the one of the points I make towards the end Also is that maybe it's possible for us to get some sort of control over our perceptual structures and our reflexes to you. Now go back and forth in our multi tasking, and if we can get a little bit of control, maybe there is a way to use our smart phones even to enhance some in person
pj_wehry:
M.
tiger_roholt:
meaningful activities. And explore this in The at the end of the book, in conjunction with this concept that Albert Bergman, has, He calls it technological instruments. I call it technological paraphernalia, and he has these examples of something like running shoes being a technological item that supports the phoca practice of running, and something like a dish washer supports the phoca practice of a family dinner. Can we figure out How to use phones as technological paraphernalia to support and foster engagement in person meaningful activities? And I think it is possible, and I give some examples of how we might learn to do that. So yeah, my, my, you know, I am someone who is quite quite positive about my phone, but I'm sort of trying to figure out how best To integrate it into my life too.
pj_wehry:
Oh, yeah, I think it's definitely an open question. Um, H. It makes I have to say, Thank you. Makes me feel a lot better to hear you say that And you wrote a You know this book on it,
tiger_roholt:
That's
pj_wehry:
because
tiger_roholt:
part of
pj_wehry:
I
tiger_roholt:
why I wrote the book.
pj_wehry:
constantly try to figure that out. Um again, Drroholt, thank you. and it's been a real pleasure having you on.
tiger_roholt:
Thanks, P. J. I really appreciate it.