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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
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Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.3)
Hi, Sandhya. Thanks for joining me.
Sandhya Sudhakar (00:02.168)
Hi, I'm excited to be here. It's a little bit of a change of pace for me to have a conversation that has nothing to do with my own podcast or careers. So I'm, excited about this.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:15.564)
That's why I'm excited to do these shows too, because I don't know, at some point when you get a little tired of talking like shop, it's just nice to talk about something that's different. And yet I still think most of these things really can apply to everything. So yeah, have you read adrienne maree brown before?
Sandhya Sudhakar (00:28.6)
100%.
Sandhya Sudhakar (00:33.41)
I have, I actually, so when I made a big career pivot, I went back to school and did a little bit of post-grad work and we did, we read some of her work in my master's program for learning and organizational change. So we kind of touched on some of the emergent strategy stuff. And so I know her from that.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:52.47)
Yeah, I've read that. And then I also read Pleasure Activism, which is partially her work and then collection of things from other folks as well. And so and I love adrienne maree brown. That said, I am not a big blog reader, so I've never really read her blog. So I did not know this piece. And I selected it at random just because really I like the name, which was Relinquishing the Patriarchy. I hadn't read much farther. If I had, I would see it said, Dear Men, it's not for us.
Sandhya Sudhakar (01:18.87)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (01:21.09)
But I also think it's good to read something that wasn't intended specifically for us to sort of see what we get from it, how it applies to our lives, maybe our relationships with men, if you're in relationships with men, which we all are to some degree, and just what we think of it. So I always like to start with kind of the high level, the 2000 foot view of what did you think of it just on the whole?
Sandhya Sudhakar (01:43.544)
Yeah, I enjoyed it. Um, and I think what might be interesting about the idea that it was not made for us is that it didn't feel super revolutionary for it being written in 2019, but that could be largely because it was not meant for us, for people who are living in this existence all of the time.
But there were a couple of pieces and happy to expand on this as we get into the conversation that I really, really liked especially.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:15.374)
Yeah, I agree. did. We earlier in the series read something from Lindy West that was written for college students. And it was, I don't remember, 2012. So it's a little older. But it was a similar thing where it did not feel remotely revolutionary, maybe because part of it was the audience. Maybe it was the time. But it was just sort of this idea that, hey, we're all feminists. Like, you're a feminist if you think men and women should have equal opportunities in life, like really sort of basic.
But it was good to see for me, I enjoyed that because it was like, okay, look how far my own understanding of feminism has evolved. And I liked it in that way of kind of like this milestone for me or this benchmark of how far I've come. And this one I thought was interesting too, because the whole time I was reading it, I was thinking about my husband. And then I'm also raising a white man, he's nine, so he's a white boy right now, but eventually we'll be a white man. And so just reading this and thinking about my sort of piece of
especially with my son, and then looking at like the man his father has become and that he could become and just thinking about my role inside of all of that and the ways that am I enabling? Am I helping to reinforce some of this thinking? And basically, am I creating one of these men who's eventually going to need to read this piece? And my hope is no, but yeah, it was challenging in that way. Are you married to a man? Do you have children? I don't want to presume anything.
Sandhya Sudhakar (03:34.04)
You
Sandhya Sudhakar (03:41.714)
No, so I am a, you know, cisgender heterosexual woman. I am in my early forties and I'm dating. So that brings also another perspective to it. And, know, that is kind of one of the things that I was not wrestling with in my head, but kind of sorting out maybe like, you know, you have a knot of yarn and I'm kind of like trying to unwind it a little bit about
gender roles and norms in dating, what I'm looking for, my preferences with a potential partner, and how does that all intersect with the idea of relinquishing the patriarchy, like for me as a woman.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:23.714)
Yeah, what did it come up? What came up for you? Because as I was reading it, there is this part of me that has, I always feel this need to say, I think my husband is doing the work to a degree. I think on so many fronts of this, I'm like, yeah, he's already in a lot of those places around the gender expectations inside of our relationships, the, who does what and how much and the, like, he would never.
I would die if he said I'm going to babysit our child. He would never. So much of this, I'm like, OK, he's beyond this. But there are parts of it, especially some of the pieces around the emotional part, the being vulnerable and sensitive. And where there's parts of this, read him like, I just, it feels so unrealistic to a degree of finding a man who's that evolved emotionally and vulnerably and having.
Sandhya Sudhakar (04:55.64)
right?
Becky Mollenkamp (05:18.296)
friends that sits around and talks about patriarchy with and relationships and love and feelings. So anyway, I wonder, as you were reading this, how much of this were you thinking, does it set the bar really high when you're dating? Or are you realistic in that this man, there aren't a lot of these men out there yet?
Sandhya Sudhakar (05:35.936)
Yeah, I mean, I think the world right now sets the bar really high for me in dating because it is so one, we're so much more informed. I'm so much more informed. I know more and therefore I can't unsee certain things. And because of the threats that loom politically speaking and otherwise, it's pressing the conversations forward.
that maybe would come up later in the process of dating. And so I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of like discussion online, like it, tick tock cracks me up. I don't know. Are you on tech talk?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:16.91)
I watch TikTok. I try not to create much content there because I don't think I'm cool enough.
Sandhya Sudhakar (06:22.36)
I think generally like there are like all these men that just post like thirst traps all the time, right? And they're going on and they're talking like, oh, or my best friend is single or there are any women out there, whatever. And literally the first comments and all of these things are who did he vote for? Who did he vote for? Who did he vote for? And so people are putting that values based filter upfront and it's becoming an interesting and like somewhat potentially contentious thing in the like dating world at large.
It's a deal breaker, right? There are certain things that are deal breakers. And I think there's also, for me, if I think about it, I wrote down the question of does relinquishing the patriarchy require us to abandon gender rules and norms? Because I still want a man who takes initiative. I want a man who fixes shit around the house. I want a man who takes the trash out and carries the heavy boxes and makes it easy for me.
and allows me to kind of like get out of my hyper independence and like take care, takes care of things and gives me the peace of mind that like it can be taken care of. So I think the question, you know, or the answer to the question for me ended up as a no, but I appreciate what adrienne maree brown said about equality and sameness, right? We're not looking for sameness. We're looking for equality. And I think that masculine feminine balance of like,
what role do I want to play or what energy do I want to be in and what do I want my partner to be in is the personal preference thing, right? Any one person can have any balance of those things. And just like you said, is your husband going to sit around a fire and like hold hands and sing with guys and talk about the patriarchy? Like probably not. There are some men out there that would do that. And like, is that what you're attracted to? Is that what I'm attracted to? You know, so I think that's kind of where I.
where I circled back around two of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:18.926)
Well, it begs the question, I not attracted to that because it's not attractive or is it because it's just so far out of my own conditioning of what I have been made to believe a man should be, what masculinity needs to look like and my relationship with that. And I don't know there's any way to know that answer when we exist inside of this system, right? But on that piece of like opening the door for me and taking out the trash and all of that, because I feel that too.
Sandhya Sudhakar (08:41.612)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:47.788)
I used to have a lot of guilt earlier in my feminist journey because men will often turn this on us. you're a feminist. Well, then I don't need to open the door for you. you're a feminist. Well, then I shouldn't have to pay. You'll pay your own way. Whatever, right? They'll kind of to turn that on you and make it seem like, you're not really a feminist then if you expect X, Y or Z from me. And I heard someone, I couldn't tell you who, because it's been a long time now, who was like, you know, it's honestly until things are, until we reach a place of equity and equality,
There isn't. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting you to do things when you already have advantages, right? Me expecting you to pay for the meal is not because I am in any way saying, I agree that this is how it should be, but I exist inside of the system as it is. And I likely make less than you. I have been spending my day being ogled, being, you know, having to deal with all of the things that we deal with as women that you haven't, you have all this advantage. So
one way for you to sort of say, here's how I'm going to use that power for good, use that privilege for good, is I'm going to try this is a way that I can bring some equity into this relationship. Same with taking out the trash, same with whatever. It's almost like a form of reparations, for lack of a better term. And I'm like, you know, it really helped me in dealing with when men would say that kind of thing to me as a feminist, where it's like, first of all, you turning that on me. That's pretty shitty, right? Like that's
Sandhya Sudhakar (10:04.172)
Yeah, I love that.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:17.41)
It already says a lot about your, and this is not my husband to be clear, but other men that will do that kind of thing. It says a lot about your own value system and the way you show up that you were thinking that. But secondly, we don't live in a world where things are equal. All things being equal, then maybe, yeah, I'll take out the trash if you're doing the diapers. I'll take out the trash if you're making the doctor's appointments for the kids. I'll take out the trash if you're the one who's remembering our parents' birthdays and sending them cards, right? All things being equal.
Sandhya Sudhakar (10:20.984)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:44.834)
then maybe those would feel different to you, right? But we don't live in that way.
Sandhya Sudhakar (10:48.936)
Yeah, I agree. And, know, when it comes to financially, you're paying for dates or things like that. It's like, okay, well, how much money do you, how much money do I spend? I won't turn this on all women, but like on my hair and my nails and getting ready and putting on makeup and like, do I want to do those things? Absolutely. They make me feel a certain way and I appreciate it. And to some extent, everything that we do is playing into a social norm in some way. Right. I mean,
You cannot decouple, I appreciate the point of what you're saying is like, you cannot decouple like a conceptual thing from the actual reality of the world that we live in. And so we are here. We want to be somewhere else. And until we get there, we still live within the parameters of this paradigm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:36.162)
Yeah, yeah, I love that you mentioned that about just some of the expectations that are put on us around appearance that are not put on men, right? And even if you don't, even if you're not someone who subscribes necessarily to those, like I don't, I put lipstick on for this podcast and it's pretty much the only time I even put on lipstick, it's literally the only makeup I use. But even if I don't subscribe to those things, there's the pink tax, called pink tax, where my razors cost more than a man's, right?
Sandhya Sudhakar (12:02.273)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:02.72)
My deodorant costs more than a man's for no reason other than it's because it's for women. And so there's this like there's things that we are still paying for just to exist as women that men are not having to. The fact that I have to shave my legs. I don't have to, obviously. But, these expectations that are placed on us that aren't placed on men that create extra labor, extra costs. And it's the things that I think men don't think. And why would they think about that or even know about?
Sandhya Sudhakar (12:23.042)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:31.246)
How could they if they aren't informed? But I think that to me is sort of what this piece is maybe trying to get at is like helping men start to at the very beginning, just open their eyes to the fact that there are these differences that they don't even know about, that we live in, so we do, but they can't and don't. Well, they can, but they don't until they are informed.
Sandhya Sudhakar (12:47.778)
Yeah.
Sandhya Sudhakar (12:54.132)
Yeah. And I think that's the, that's kind of the crux of, kind of where she started and where we all start with this idea of privilege, right. And looking at the systems that we live in is like, what is the default identity that the world is built for? You know, it is assumed that a man, you know, is like the masculine qualities are those qualities we look for in a leader. is assumed that, you know, our
Our medical research is all built around men. Like this world that we live in is not designed for women and it hasn't considered women and thinking about, like you said, right? The pig tax, all these things that we're talking about, in addition to how much do I have to advocate for my own health when I go to the doctor? Because there were no case studies in his or her book in medical school about a South Asian woman and you know, whatever these certain conditions like
that that wasn't considered, right? And so even things like, what was it? The seatbelt that was like a crash test dummy. That's the size of an average woman was like, it was like years, a couple of years ago, but that became a norm in the industry. Like.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:05.122)
That just, yeah, think it was in last, yeah, it was in the last year maybe they started using average woman-sized crash-dummy, crash-dummy alongside average size man crash-dummy.
Sandhya Sudhakar (14:14.972)
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like acknowledging for a man to acknowledge, right? Just like for a white person in a white supremacist country to acknowledge the default is, is you, you are the default that is acceptable. That's good. That's seen as positive that the world is designed for. And like, how do you then like, you know, my favorite quote of the whole thing is, be willing to understand that patriarchy
as a million small choices every day to shirk responsibility, to assume power you haven't earned, to be mothered by your partners. You must learn to see those choices and add more options into your life. Like it is an active action. You must take every minute of every day to like open up your lens and just see if you are the holder of that privilege, right? If you are a man in a patriarchy.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:10.318)
Yeah, and for me as a white body person, becomes easier to understand some of this in a way, like be able to see how a man who's never confronted these issues might feel in reading this. Because I certainly remember early on in my journey of that same sort of feeling of I don't know that I've ever had that fully, but I know and kind of can understand where many white folks will wake up to like.
this stuff, this like, I live in a white supremacist society and still be really feel confronted like, but I don't have that advantage. Like, I don't have class advantage or you know, that's often the one I hear is yeah, but I was poor. So it doesn't apply to me. And I can understand where men might read some of this and have that same confrontational feeling of like, but I don't dislike women. Like I don't hate women. I love my wife. I don't do some because there some of the things that are in here are blatant, right? Talking about things that are much more
obvious abuse or things like that, where I could see a man sort of starting to feel that, like wanting to exempt himself from this by that feeling of like, well, I don't do those bad. I'm one of the good ones, right? I'm one of the good guys. And I think the more that they, man could read this and open his mind to understand this isn't about, it's not even casting that judgment of are you a good guy or a bad guy? And somewhere in here, I think she mentioned something along that line of like, it's not about that. is understanding.
We all live in these systems, like you said, and you have to be able to confront that to say, even if I am not making these obviously bad choices, just by existing inside of this system and being a man inside of the system, I am given certain benefit and privilege that maybe I can't even see. And that can be really, I think it can be very hard to sit with because it's hard to not make it feel like a personal judgment. I think when you have that privilege, it's hard to not see that privilege and have people
confront that with you and not start to feel like it's a personal attack. And so I can't imagine there's any men listening, but if there are any men who aren't my husband listening. But if there are, like this isn't about men being bad or wrong, it's about patriarchy being, and I love she called it this, a disease. And it's a disease that's infected all of us, including women. Like we also have all that internalized misogyny that we get from existing inside of these systems.
Sandhya Sudhakar (17:09.472)
Hahaha!
Sandhya Sudhakar (17:22.968)
Yeah.
Sandhya Sudhakar (17:28.894)
Yeah, it's that. I think generally, it's the same feeling that I kind of see when you're talking about, you want to be equal, but you want me to open the door for you. There's a defensiveness that happens. There's like, I had it hard. Also, you're telling me that I have privileges. And I've done some DEI trainings, and I've done some DEI trainings in some blue collar environments that are heavily male.
And it is a contentious topic when you start to talk about privilege, right? And it's like, it is just the absence of a barrier. You don't see it until you look for it. And still it's, it's a hard thing for people to grapple with because nobody wants to feel that shame. Nobody wants to feel like a bad person. Nobody wants to.
you know, see themselves as somebody who has had advantages, even if they've, you know, had the struggle. I, think for me, what I appreciate or what I go to a lot of times is just like, how do cognitive biases work? Like our brain is doing this on our behalf. It's not about being a good person or bad person. It's not about this or that. It's like, you literally just have to take the action to ask the question to like, if you got a promotion pause for one second, say,
Hmm. Was there anyone else that was just as qualified that got passed over? And why do I think that maybe me as a man got it instead of my counterpart who's a woman? It's, you know, thinking about the conversation of contraception and like not leaving it to a woman to be the one taking the birth control pill. And you don't have to worry about anything. You know, it's like every little decision has to kind of have that, but we don't, we don't like to feel shame, especially in America. we like to think that we're good people. so.
It's that defensiveness is, the thing that we just have to get through. And I, I think now that I'm saying this out loud, it's also tied to men are not taught to like notice their emotions or sit with them or have them. They're not allowed to do that. So, right. And so this feeling of discomfort of defensiveness,
Becky Mollenkamp (19:42.712)
I think they're taught to fear them.
Sandhya Sudhakar (19:50.648)
They're like not trained at all to deal with this, right? And so it's like that layer on top of it as well. It's like the whole reason that we're in this problem is why this problem is so much harder to solve.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:03.854)
Well, I totally feel that as a white body person, as a white person, I have had that experience where I get that I can feel that immediate discomfort that comes up when I'm feeling like when I've made a mistake, I've said the wrong thing, I did the wrong thing, whatever, know, quote unquote wrong, where I have maybe just not shown up the way I want to show up. Or even when I'm not reading about something about me, it's much it's always more intense when it's.
something I've done, right? An action I took that I'm like, that was not the best action I could have taken in that moment. But even when it's, you know, back further back in my journey, when it was just talking about whiteness in general, and I could feel that defensiveness that comes up, right? And then it's that discomfort that you're in of like, I want people to know it's not me, they, need them to like me, right? That like, and you want to do anything you can to get out of that as quickly as you can, because in the same way men don't learn,
Sandhya Sudhakar (20:33.357)
for sure. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:57.688)
to be with their feelings, white folks also, and I'm not exempt from that, also are very much trained to not be good with that, to be in discomfort. We don't learn how, we are so used to the world catering to our comfort that we don't learn how to be uncomfortable, right? The more marginalized identities you hold, the more you have, there's no way you can't be with discomfort, right? Discomfort just exists and so you have to learn to be with it. When you,
Sandhya Sudhakar (21:14.892)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:24.778)
are having a hard time with discomfort, it's a real sign of privilege, right? And so that's a great place to even just check in and say, why am I finding it so difficult to just sit in this discomfort? Why am I feeling this need to like defend myself or to change the subject or to run away or whatever it is? And that is a sign of like, there's a privilege here that's showing that shining a light on a privilege I have held that's allowed me to not have to be in this uncomfortable feeling. And that's really, really hard. But I think it's also an invitation.
if we can remember that, that it's an invitation to explore. Because I think men are definitely, especially white men, very much are like used to not having to be uncomfortable. The world sort of is designed for them. So there's just no reason to be uncomfortable. But even as a woman, as a white woman, I very much also have that experience. As she said, like the norm, quote unquote, normal in the US is a white, cishet, able-bodied, educated man or the woman who loves him, right?
Sandhya Sudhakar (22:22.038)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:22.22)
And that is, you know, as a woman who sits that close to that proximity to that normal standard, I benefit from that. So yeah, I think that discomfort piece is interesting because I think it's such a sign that there's work to do.
Sandhya Sudhakar (22:32.609)
Yeah.
Sandhya Sudhakar (22:38.696)
Yeah, yeah. I work with a tool called the Aniagram, which you know. And it's a personality, kind of archetypal system. And sometimes people will kind of like identify countries as types in terms of like, what is the type? What's the type of American culture? And yes, yes. That's my belief. That's what I've heard some other people say. And
Becky Mollenkamp (22:59.342)
It feels like a three, right? Are we a three in the US?
Sandhya Sudhakar (23:06.84)
And that, and that's actually my any of your ground pipe too, which is, um, interesting and, and fun maybe. Um, but it's, it is one of those things where.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:14.062)
What probably helps you better understand this culture that you're inside of, right? Because you relate.
Sandhya Sudhakar (23:18.882)
Totally. And the thing is, what that means is success and image are important. Emotions are inefficient. They get in the way. So I don't need to have feelings. I just need to keep doing. And so we're valued. It's capitalistic. I'm valued for what I produce, not for who I am. And I
Avoid shame at all costs. What we're speaking about this discomfort, right? I think underneath there is probably some fear, probably some shame, probably some, you know, anger and all these other things. But the idea that we just keep doing and keep climbing and keep achieving more and keep making more money and keep looking better and whatever. and, and stop feeling is, is, it's almost like our country.
And the systems that it takes to succeed in or the systems that we want to succeed in, encourage us to dissociate from our emotions. Like to exist in America and not have to feel anything would be like, my God, think about how much you could do. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:30.734)
I used to think I was a three, I think because I'm American. I think that three for people who don't know Enneagram three, I you just explained what it is. It's an interesting thing to go check. There's nine Enneagram types you can find. Maybe you can share a great resource for learning more. I think because I am here and Enneagram three that that sort of way of showing up that I'm productive. I want people to appreciate all that I do in this world. And I want to be known for being like,
Sandhya Sudhakar (24:44.759)
Yeah, I could do that.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:01.054)
best at achieving, that is like exalted in this country, right? Like that is the ideal. Like that's what we think of as the best probably of the Enneagram types. So I think I used to think I was or aspire to be and try to fit that mold. And I have now recently, more recently realized I'm actually an Enneagram six, which is more about like security and safety. And it has a lot to do with my,
Sandhya Sudhakar (25:05.656)
Yes.
Sandhya Sudhakar (25:22.008)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:25.006)
attachment style. And if you know much about attachment theory from childhood and all that. So the thing I crave the most that I need the most that makes me feel the best is when I have that feeling of security and safety. But as you're talking about this, it makes me realize too, that I don't do well with discomfort. don't like, I don't like any conflict because it immediately makes me feel like there's no safety. People aren't going to like me. They're not going to, they're going to like leave me and I need them to stay. Right. So I want people to like me.
Sandhya Sudhakar (25:45.878)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:51.512)
but not because I'm doing a lot. I want them to like me because I want to, feel safe when I know they're going to be there, right? And if they leave, I don't feel safe. So for me, when I get into that discomfort, that's why it's like, it's less about how I'm perceived by the world, but more about how I'm being perceived by that person and will they stay. I'm afraid like, if I offend them, if I upset them, then they're going to not like me and they'll be gone. And now I feel less safe. So it's interesting for people who know their enneagram type to maybe think a little bit about your relationship with liberation and doing some of this work.
Sandhya Sudhakar (25:57.163)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:21.006)
through that lens because it does make you start to realize like, okay, then this is, can understand why I may react the way I react in a certain situation.
Sandhya Sudhakar (26:29.812)
It's, it's exactly that. So like your version of, cannot have the threat of disconnection in a relationship because it makes me less safe and secure in the world. I will have less access to resources or people who know how to do things or whatever. That's the sixth version. The three version of that is, I need to, I need people to see me as valuable and worthy and worthwhile. And so if I,
I'm wrong or if I make a mistake or if I fail at something or if I don't fit into the social norm or the expectations of people, that's where the threat comes in. and I did an episode actually about being a people pleaser and all the different ways that like people pleasing shows up. And it's, it's, there's nine different ways to people please, right? Like every any room type kind of has their own thing. And it's like, at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's a threat to our existential safety.
And that's where that feeling comes from, right? That's why we avoid conflict. That's why we avoid shame. It's why we avoid, avoid scary stuff and fear is because we just humans want to feel safe, whether it's true or whether it's like a false sense of safety. Like we just, we crave it, right? And we move toward it.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:44.556)
Yeah, it's interesting because when you said people pleasing, I was also thinking about Enneagram nine, which is the other like the three that I kind of have some affinity towards and feeling of like these all kind of are an element of me is three, which I again, I've started to realize is more about the cultural conditioning in which I exist. Six, which I think is really probably more true because I think it relates to my attachment style. But there is this nine piece that I understand, too. But I think it feels more like similar to three. But the expectations for women.
Sandhya Sudhakar (27:56.62)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:11.832)
Because nines are like these caretakers, they're the people pleasers. They're the ones who safety feels, they feel safe when others around them feel safe. You tell me if I'm off, but this is my understanding of it, right? Like I feel secure if everyone else is feeling okay. So as long as I can get everyone else to feel okay, then I'm okay. And that feels more like the way I'm conditioned as a woman to show up. So again, it doesn't feel authentic to who I am, but I relate to it hardcore because I think I've also tried to fit that mold because that's the one that I feel like women are often praised for.
I think all of us as Americans are conditioned to be threes, but really that's for the norm, the white man. There's women are sort of conditioned to like, actually, you should be more like a nine. You're supposed to make sure everyone else feels okay, right? You're tending to those men as they're out there achieving, and that's what makes you worthy and okay. So that's when you think about people pleasing. I think of nines, but you're right. I think I do people please, but I think if I'm in my truth around what a six is and where I really show up,
My people pleasing is less about making sure others are feeling okay, but making sure that it's just like, what do have to do to make sure you stay? Keep me safe.
Sandhya Sudhakar (29:16.382)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, exactly. Like I need to keep this tether to this human. Right. And so for interestingly, so for nines, it's really about like keeping the peace, right? Like if you're all peaceful, you're all getting along. I feel okay in my body. Like there is a visceral, like if people are not getting along or they don't like me or they, you know, we're not staying connected in that sense. Like I feel chaotic in my body. I actually think the kind of like archetypal
expectation of women as a type two, which is very similar to a nine and a lot of nines and twos kind of, um, mistype each other as each other, but the two is the giver. It's the caretaker. It's the, I'm putting everyone needs everyone else's needs before my own. So nines are more about their perspectives or the agendas of other people. And there's very tiny nuance in between those things, but twos are the caretakers. They're the givers. They're.
What does everybody need? I'm going to anticipate everybody's needs. I'm going to put my own needs last. I actually don't even think I need, I have any needs, you know, and then the kind of archetypal male is like the type eight, which is like strength and power. And I am impervious to weakness and I don't show vulnerability. And, know, so there's this interesting kind of, I think, you know, kind of man and woman kind of archetypes and what we're supposed to be that.
holds us back, right? And that causes us so many problems.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:46.168)
So interesting. I think just knowing those things about yourself, again, going back to what this is about is understanding the way you're showing up and seeing the world so that as you are challenging some of the societal norms, because especially for men who this is written for, and white men most specifically, it is about allowing yourself to say, I'm going to give up some of my safety, some of my security.
by giving up some of this privilege that I am, I had this unearned privilege that I received simply because I'm a white man. And obviously if you're giving up privilege, giving up power, that does rock your safety, right? It inherently will. You're gonna feel less safe than you did before. And if you don't understand yourself and the way you show up in the world and what that like does with, if you're into Enneagram or any of the...
Sandhya Sudhakar (31:25.356)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:37.006)
sort of personality things. If you don't understand how that relates to you specifically, it's going to be even more challenging. But I think if you know, OK, I'm an Enneagram 3. If I'm willing to give up some of this privilege, it means I'm to have to confront this real discomfort I now have around maybe not achieving as much as I once did, right? Not having people respect me as they once did. And what does that do for me so that you can start to learn how to tend to yourself? Because
I don't know if this piece, I'm trying to remember if there was anything speaking to this specifically other than Haman therapy, which is important, but the piece of like giving up privilege that we have to confront is it's hard, right? And I think that that can be the thing that can be difficult for folks who have privileges when we go on this bad, this journey of trying to let go of privilege is also sitting with.
Sandhya Sudhakar (32:08.024)
Yes, yes, we support it.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:24.302)
I have a challenge inside of that because we have, there's often all this guilt around like, oh, I have this honor and privilege. Like you start to feel guilty about it. That's like white guilt, this male guilt, whatever it is. And then you start to feel bad when it's hurting you because you think like, I don't want to center myself. My needs are not as important here. I have to give this stuff up, whatever. But we also, you do have to tend to yourself through this because this is hard stuff. Like for a white man to, like you said,
Sandhya Sudhakar (32:26.85)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:50.858)
recognized maybe I just got that promotion and there was someone else who maybe deserved it as much or more that had less privilege to actually sit and confront that and say, do I do something here? That is going to be really, really, really hard. It doesn't mean that it's not right to still do the thing. Like you should still do the thing. But if you're not prepared for the fact that that could be really hard, you're not going to do the action. So anyway, I just think that Enneagram or whatever tools you use to better understand yourself is really important in this journey.
Sandhya Sudhakar (33:20.586)
Yeah. And I actually really, was a couple of the things that I jotted down when I was reading the article, like centered around power. And I think if you think about, that, that man who takes a step back or literally puts himself on the front line to say like, Hey, this is unfair. Like something, you know, is happening here and someone else's deserves the promotion, how much then does that conflict with the
the male provider role. Now I'm sacrificing something for my family that I'm supposed to protect and provide for. And so it butts these two things, butt up against each other, right? I'm doing something for the greater good, but I'm going to put my own family at risk. And like, how much conflict would that create internally for someone, you know, that that's playing their role in society that the way, the way that they're supposed to. but your, your point, I think,
Is a really important one about like, can we understand like what, what is that thing? You know, any gram, whatever tool you use, where do I perceive a lack of safety most in my life and how can I work with that? I appreciate that a lot. And I think it is like, that is such a big part of doing the work, whether it's through therapy or through a tool or through reading or whatever it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:39.0)
probably a combination of all of those things, right? Because I would imagine doing the tool, whether it's Myers-Briggs or Enneagram or CliftonStrengths or whatever the things are that you use, those are great. But if you can't do the introspective work on your own, because you're not used to this, and for men especially, they are so deeply conditioned to not do that introspective work, then that tool doesn't tell you much, right? You can know you're an Enneagram 3, and honestly, you can look at that and there's a lot of positives in any of those Enneagrams. There's a lot of positives, right? They're there to protect
Sandhya Sudhakar (34:41.227)
All the things.
Sandhya Sudhakar (34:56.333)
Yeah.
Sandhya Sudhakar (35:06.551)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:08.514)
you to help you to serve you. It's understanding the sort of shadow sides of those things. And that is the work that's usually a lot harder to do on your own. So that's where therapy and books and coaching and things like that can come in to help you with it. So I think a combination of all of those things is really valuable.
Sandhya Sudhakar (35:25.45)
Yeah. And it makes me think of part of the article where, she's talking about like what you should do with your like male friends. Right. And it's about like having a place to express emotions, but don't solve them. Don't sit there and like, try to solve each other's problems. Just hold it and be with it. And like that in and of itself is, is, is hard too. Right. Men are like programmed problem solvers. And so I think the sitting with the discomfort is like,
realizing there's a problem, right? The awareness is great, but like sitting with the discomfort is really the work.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:00.652)
Yeah, yeah, she gives you 14, like things that you can do as men in particular, because that's who this is for. But honestly, reading all of these, can easily substitute man for white or for able bodied or for college educated, whatever the privileges are that you hold. I still think almost all of these are really valuable because I know I was reading through them and number three in particular, which was don't get into language supremacy.
Sandhya Sudhakar (36:18.412)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:26.068)
or read the most feminist supremacy thinking that you're better than other men because you know the language of patriarchy or feminism or other isms. And I was like, golly, have I ever been guilty of that in times in the past where it's like, well, I'm farther on this journey than you. I've read more black feminists than you have, right? Like this, even if I'm not saying that, like I know I have that internal, like she says, overcharged competitive nature, which is obviously grounded in this white supremacist capitalist conditioning.
Sandhya Sudhakar (36:30.497)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:54.338)
And yet it's that like just trying to even notice that in yourself to be like, wait a minute, why am I feeling this need to show off my knowledge or to talk about the things I've done or to even just like the little internal charge I get where it's like, I've read that and they have it or whatever the thing is, right? So there were some of these in here that I was like, these apply to me too. Like I need to keep reminding myself of these things.
Sandhya Sudhakar (37:16.384)
Yeah, no, totally. I was, I was over here like wrestling my papers around. Cause I was like, where was the thing that she said at the very beginning? It was, patriarchy, the system of government, which men hold the power and women are excluded from it. And I was like, aha, okay. That's the definition, right? Like, I think some of these things too, become, so ubiquitous that we kind of forget what they mean. And, and I was thinking about power in that sense. And like,
what's happening right now. sorry, this is a total divergent thought here, but you know, there's so much talk about like, Elon Musk, right? And all this stuff. And we're starting to see some cracks going on, which is great, but like, okay, if you're the richest man in the world, like go by an Island and disappear. Like if, if I were the richest person in the world, you would never hear from me again. Right. But why is it that you have all this money?
Becky Mollenkamp (37:50.597)
that's great.
Sandhya Sudhakar (38:13.078)
and you are using it to buy power. Like you need to have control over something. And there's this assumed competency of I know better than the people who have been doing this for their entire careers, how to run this structure. it's like, what in the world, like this idea of assumed power, right? Or like power belongs to men, right? It should default to men is like,
For me, was something that I was like, yeah, we're seeing it in action.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:45.326)
For sure. yeah. Well, yeah. mean, and the idea that you are like born with a silver spoon in your mouth, had a reality TV show, and somehow that means you should be president of the free world. Like, OK, sure. And it makes me think of number 12, which I think is one of the most challenging of all the things on this list, and that you hinted at or sort of brought up with the job piece of like, why did I get this promotion? Because number 12 is make a list of things that you believe you are owed by.
And I think it's such a valuable exercise for all of us to do because almost everyone holds at least one privileged identity, if not many privileged identities, right? There's very few of us that are checking off every single thing. Like you probably, if you're not, you know, sharing the same majority religion, then you probably are, you know, have a college education or, you know, like you're going to have one of these things. And so what has that taught you about what you're owed by the world? And I think for white men, most especially white able-bodied, you know,
Sandhya Sudhakar (39:15.469)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:45.102)
class, higher class men, and I don't mean higher class, I mean in the class threshold of men. I think that there is, I feel like it would be a very challenging one for them to sit and confront, because I know as a white woman it's challenging to confront the things that I sort of believe I am owed. Like I am owed a good home. I am owed a good education for my children. I'm owed all these, like I feel like that is a thing that of course I'm supposed to have, right?
And I think that that is a really hard thing to confront, but I think it sits at exactly what you're saying. An Elon Musk or a Donald Trump, I think they genuinely believe that they are owed power, they are owed respect. That is such a big one I hear among men, that they're owed respect. Like you must respect me. Well, must I or must you earn that, right? But there is this belief around what they're owed. So that number 12 one, I think is probably the hardest one on that list of the things she gives.
Sandhya Sudhakar (40:32.12)
you
Sandhya Sudhakar (40:35.605)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:42.636)
and maybe one of the most important for us to examine.
Sandhya Sudhakar (40:45.586)
Yeah, my gosh, we could go down a whole rabbit hole, which we won't right now. But this idea of like the male loneliness epidemic, there's a lot of talk about that. And it is like, yes, you are owed a woman, right? You are owed a woman to take care of you. You're owed sex, you're owed money and power and
Becky Mollenkamp (40:49.356)
We can.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:53.716)
Yes. Andrew Tafe of the world. Yeah.
Sex.
Sandhya Sudhakar (41:07.32)
an affluent life. And if you don't have those things, it's not because you did anything wrong or you lacked accountability or you didn't take action against it. It's because the world is out to get you, right? just how, like, if we think about bias and how much media is being consumed right now, it's like the way cognitive biases work is like all the inputs are making up the foundation of what you believe. And men sitting in front of YouTube all day long,
consuming whatever the algorithm believes is going to keep them hooked, right? It's like, that I think scares me the most maybe about like the generation coming up and you know, the nine year old boy that you're raising into a man. It's like, how do you police all of this information all the time? There's so much of it. And if you get into the right algorithm or the wrong algorithm, you will go down that rabbit hole of
Becky Mollenkamp (41:49.656)
As a mom, yes.
Sandhya Sudhakar (42:06.262)
The world is taking these things from you. Immigrants are taking these things from you. Women are taking these things from you. And that's where this, I am owed these things and therefore I'm going to go find a way to get them that may not be a great thing, you know?
Becky Mollenkamp (42:21.87)
I mean, let me tell you, that is probably the thing that sits at the front of my mind the most as a parent. One, the just how do I watch for or navigate police patrol the information that my son's receiving as he keeps getting older and needs more independence. I can't be sitting next to my 17-year-old monitoring every video he watches. Like I have to also at some point trust that I'm instilling in him the kinds of
Sandhya Sudhakar (42:40.248)
100%.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:49.844)
skills and understanding that he makes good choices. And it's really hard navigating that because it's so insidious, the small ways that the stuff starts to show up in some of the like gaming videos he wants to watch with these white guys. It's almost predominantly white young men that are doing this kind of stuff. And that pipeline that I hear about of the like, you know, gamer to to incel MAGA is scary. And also figuring out how do I navigate wanting to
help him have great internal belief, confidence, self-love, all of these things that any of us wants for our child and for ourselves, and balance that with also helping him understand he's not owed anything, that he has to earn things, that his behavior matters, that he's not better than anyone else while also wanting him to feel like he's the greatest kid in the world. Just how do you balance all of those things? It's fun.
Sandhya Sudhakar (43:41.501)
Yeah, it's so hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:44.59)
impossible. It feels like an impossible mission. And when I read things like this, it leaves me in that like, I don't know, am I doing it right? Is there a right? Am I fucking it all up? Like, I don't know. It's so complicated. It's hard. And I'm sure it's similar with dating in some ways, not that you're responsible for them. But like, that feeling of I would imagine like, I have these expectations for what I deserve and want and maybe owed in a relationship versus
the reality of the world that we live in, also not wanting to maybe be alone. And like, it's just so challenging trying to navigate the ideal with the real world. That tricky space.
Sandhya Sudhakar (44:24.503)
Yeah.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. mean, say that again, right? It's like, and this, and this goes back to things like social media. It's like, we get these messages, right? And in dating right now, the messages are like, decentering men, right? And like, men are terrible and they're, they're awful and they're all ugly and weak and, you know, they can't bring anything to the table. And I'm like, I'm like,
Also trying not to listen to that stuff because I'm like, well, I understand the reality of like maybe the gap that exists between like my amazing set of peers that are women. Like that doesn't mean that all men are, you know, dysfunctional and, you know, and, just like outcasts from society. And it's like, I don't want to believe that. And I'm going to choose that. There are great ones out there that are.
doing the learning that I'm doing and trying to improve themselves and bring, you know, respect and, you know, dignity to the table for women and all of that kind of stuff. And so we just have to do the best we can. Right. It's, it's like, we're going to fuck it up, but yeah, it's just like, what is most important. And at the end of the day, when, know, your boy is like going to bed at night, is he thinking about like,
Okay, I'm just not going to cause harm to anybody. Like, great. That's great.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:51.97)
think that's where he is, right? I feel good about that. And then there's like the porn discussion that's gonna have to happen soon and navigating that. And that's where shit gets real tricky, right? And as you're out there dating, dealing with like those, these nine-year-old boys become the 40-year-old men that you're dating and it's terrifying to think like, I wanna do it well and I don't want him to get beat up every day of his life. And the reality of the world we live in is that if he is too emotional out in those spaces and
Sandhya Sudhakar (45:53.674)
Hahaha
Sandhya Sudhakar (46:00.579)
Yeah, oh my gosh.
Sandhya Sudhakar (46:16.556)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:20.696)
junior high and middle and high school. Like that's a reality. can't, know, like, it's just so tricky. And that's where I think sometimes these pieces, it's so hard because we're talking about this ideal we want to get to, not even an ideal, like where we should be, right? The fall of patriarchy is inevitable, which I love that she says that. It gives me some hope. I want to live in a world that's not patriarchal. That's not white supremacist. Like that is what we want. And the navigation from here to there is so fucking messy.
Because it's not like you can't, you can, I suppose, live today as if we are in that world. But there are consequences for living today as if you were in that world for boys, for men, for women, right? There's isolation for men. It becomes very lonely because they're going to lose so many of their friendships, their families. Same for us. Like, you know, if I chose to exile everyone for my life who wasn't living as if it were that ideal, I would be very lonely. Right. So.
Sandhya Sudhakar (47:01.11)
Yes, yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:18.816)
navigating how to actually sort of transition from where we are to there and honor the reality of where we're at. I feel like that's a piece that I don't see as often really talked about in a lot of these kinds of things. It's more about the like, this is what we need. And I agree. But how do we like function as real humans where there's real world consequences for behaving as if we already live in that space when we don't? Right. And how do we navigate that divide?
Sandhya Sudhakar (47:43.008)
Yes. Yes. And it's the conversation that's happening right now. And we're around like burn it all down and we need a something other than to two party system. I'm like, yes, yes. And yes. And all those things. And it's just not going to happen in the next election. So like, we just need to also be practical, you know, handle things as they come and recognize that we live in a system. unless we have something better to replace it, it's like, we can't just like break it.
right now, this minute, you know? It's also mind our own safety.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:12.706)
Yeah. Right. It's like rage against the rage against the system while existing inside the system. And that is such a tricky thing to do. And yet it's what we all have to do every day. It's so, so hard. But, you know, it is what it is, I guess. Right. Like, there's no great answers for any of this, which is why I think for men, if they're reading this. Well, for anyone who holds privilege identities, when you're reading this, it's like take the pieces that Pete, the quote you gave about like the million little steps or whatever.
Sandhya Sudhakar (48:20.376)
Ha ha ha ha.
Sandhya Sudhakar (48:42.338)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:42.488)
I think too often we want to bite off the whole thing at once. And it's like, we can't. And there are going to be people on the right who are still in that place that I was talking about of like, which one was it? Number three, where they're in the language supremacy and I'm better than you because I'm doing it better than you. And that is a real thing that exists in the progressive side of things where there's this like, well, if you're not doing it a hundred percent, then you suck. You're awful. You're not doing it right. This cancel culture of you're not doing it all right. And yet we ha we can't eat the whole.
Sandhya Sudhakar (48:45.623)
Yes.
Sandhya Sudhakar (48:59.053)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:11.372)
Watermelon's what's coming to my mind probably because I had it the other day can't the whole watermelon at once you just it's impossible the only thing we can do is start to chip away at it and eat it piece by piece and So figuring out of these 14 things. What's the one thing you can do now, right? What's the one thing you can do today? What's the one thing maybe you can do tomorrow or next week that feels real and I feel like that's the only way to break it down
Sandhya Sudhakar (49:14.188)
Ha ha.
Sandhya Sudhakar (49:35.764)
Yeah. And I think, you know, the, action piece for me is like the thing that stands out. It's like, how do we take these things out of our head and into action? And like, maybe what's one thing that I can do today to, you know, to, to be a better man, you know, if, if I'm a man reading this, to question one thought that comes up or see one thing differently.
And maybe I don't even do anything about it today, right? But it's like, how do you just start to take small steps to, question what's happening and to, to, to be an ally for women, and find opportunities to, to put yourself on the front line and not make them.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:20.534)
Yeah, that discomfort piece. How do you learn to just be in the discomfort? Because that is that I mean, the first step is the awareness. And then the second step is sort of the discomfort that comes from the awareness and learning how to be with that. And that is not easy. It can take a really long time. So like you may be stuck in that step for a long time before you're ever willing to do the piece of like giving, ceding some power and privilege. But if you're doing it, if you're trying, if you're learning to be in the discomfort and not resisting it, then you're in the fight.
Sandhya Sudhakar (50:49.022)
Yes. And let me just then make a plug for somatic therapy because that has been for this enneagram type three, who is just learning how to feel emotions, right. And, and be with them, be with them long enough, like not try to fix them or solve them or do something about it or whatever. I think it's something that could be very helpful for a lot of people. especially kind of like assertive doer types and there's a great, I'll
You know, we can put the link in the resources, but the somatic experiencing Institute has this great directory of somatic based therapists because we can all talk about these things, right? We can all intellectualize it and, and, and break it down cognitively, but it's like to practice sitting with things and slowing the process down for me has been the most valuable.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:38.19)
That can be great, too, I think, for men, again, because a lot of them are in that any year, I'm three or eight, that sort of place of having maybe a challenging time talking about feelings. so somatic experiences versus talk therapy, like a somatic therapeutic experience versus a talk therapy experience may feel a little more action based. It's a different kind of action than they're probably used to, but it may be a place to start. And I'll plug my grandmother's hands, which I've done before, but Resma, Resma Mennecom's book.
Sandhya Sudhakar (52:04.376)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:06.292)
is so, so, so good and being in honoring the privilege side of this unlearning journey and saying, yes, those of you with privilege identities, this will also be hard. And it's okay that it's hard. And here's how you care for yourself through this hard part of this journey, because I think that is so important for us to do. And it's very somatic based as well. So, and then what's your recommendation for Enneagram? Where do people go to learn about Enneagram?
Sandhya Sudhakar (52:31.436)
Well, there's a couple of websites that have a lot of information, anagram institute.com and narrative anagram.org. And then I have a couple of podcasts episodes that are kind of my, well, one of them is kind of like the primer to anagram and it goes through all the types. So, you know, I'm happy to offer that up as a resource to my podcast is called working your way. And, I'll send you, we'll, we'll have the link for the anagram kind of one-on-one. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:50.786)
And your podcast is called.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:57.134)
Yeah, it'll be in the show notes and yeah, and for it specifically more in the workspace, which I think for a lot of men is really a valuable place to start because again, there's so much of that pride around being responsible for others and providing and all of that. So work can be a beautiful place to start this journey.
Sandhya Sudhakar (53:15.166)
Yeah, totally. And it's a great place to notice the inequities.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:19.214)
They're there. They're there, friends. Yeah. Well, thank you for having this conversation with me. I'm going to link to everything you talked about your website. People can go learn more about you in the show notes. And I always finish by asking, do you recommend this piece and to whom?
Sandhya Sudhakar (53:35.532)
Yeah, I recommend this piece to men. And I believe that there will be something new in it for everybody. So absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:47.938)
Yeah, again, like you said, it may feel a bit basic, but in a way, like for those who have more marginalized identities and even so, like there are in those 14 steps for getting all the other piece of it, the 14 steps, I still think there are stuff that I don't care where you're at on this journey. They're good reminders of things that really anyone with any privileged identity can work on. And so I would say I recommend it to men and then also to white people specifically. But honestly, if you hold any privileged identity, I think you do just read this and everywhere it talks about men, substitute it.
Sandhya Sudhakar (54:04.184)
100%.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:17.624)
for your privileged identity and look at it through that lens and I still think you're going to get a lot from it. So thanks for reading it with me and talking about it with me.
Sandhya Sudhakar (54:18.648)
Yeah.
Sandhya Sudhakar (54:23.224)
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun.