25% of SaaS Execs Are on the Bench. Here's Why.

Why are so many SaaS executives struggling to get hired?

In this episode, Raul and Toni dive deep into the surprising stat that 25% of Pavilion members—many of them seasoned SaaS execs—are currently “on the bench.” We explore what’s really going on in the market, how layoffs and short stints are damaging even top-tier CVs, and why CROs are applying for AE roles just to stay in the game.
 
We also talk mental health, the rise of “consulting” as a placeholder, and whether now might be the time to walk away from SaaS altogether. If you're a founder, CRO, or GTM leader, this one's for you. 

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• (00:00) - Introduction
• (02:18) - 25% of Pavilion execs "on the bench"
• (03:41) - The SaaS recession
• (09:08) - Job hunting and mental health issues
• (13:48) - Going into consulting
• (18:26) - Leave tech behind?
• (22:01) - Private equity and VC roles
• (24:48) - Rethinking CV evaluations
• (28:09) - Conclusion
• (29:31) - Up next: Jacco's new playbook

Creators and Guests

Host

Raul Porojan

Voice of Reason in Revenue / Former Director Sales & CS at Project A

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

Introduction
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[00:00:00]

Toni: I think I know two or three or four others, solid talent people that I respected, worked with, did fantastic work with. And they've been now struggling for what, 12, 18 months to land a gig and that kind of makes you wonder, well, how did this thing actually happen? I'm a

Raul: 10 top 5% head of salesman in this kind of role, but now I have to compete with all these CROs and all these VPs and and ex founders, and all of a sudden I'm like quite packed in the middle.

Toni: I think it isn't only VCs and founders getting effed I think it's also a lot of careers being burned in the process. Today, Raul and I are discussing a terrifying statistic that we stumbled over recently, 25% of pavilion members. It is one out of four. Is currently sitting on the bench industry, veterans senior folks that cannot find a job Right now.

We're going to discuss why that is, and the reason isn't just AI, but most importantly, we're going to talk [00:01:00] about what people can do to get unstuck from that situation. As usual, reach out to [e-mail] for comments and make sure you hit subscribe for the show. Enjoy.

Raul: So I did a mental telly of great people I know who are currently out of a job, including actually you and me.

By strict definition, you don't have a job 'cause you're not employed. Hey, I don't have a job. I'm a founder.

Toni: I'm running a, I'm running a business.

Raul: Is being a founder being employed?

Toni: Okay.

Good philosophical question. Um. I would, I would say yes, I'm pretty busy all day long. I don't get paid much because we're bootstrapping, obviously.

So if you wanna support that, go over to that of the AI and kind of sign up. But otherwise, maybe you're right. Maybe we're in between. Yeah, maybe we're in between being fully employed and being fully unemployed.

Raul: So I feel the same way. So I, by definition, I actually have two companies right now, but, uh, I'm actually unemployed for, for a year and a half, and I'm doing really well, thank you.

But, um, I know a lot of people who are [00:02:00] great at what they're doing, who are currently looking for something or have actually been doing that for, for quite a while. And, um, I think that this is quite stressful for these people. Uh, for me. And as far as I can tell you, we're doing quite well, but we've also found a, maybe a different lane.

Yeah. But what do you do if you're really stressed about this right now? I.

Toni: No, exactly.

25% of Pavillion execs "on the bench"
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Toni: And, and I think just to kind of build this out a little bit further, so I just recently talked to a good friend of mine, um, and he mentioned, so he's, he's deep in the, in the, in the pavilion, uh, community. Mm. He just mentioned that according to his estimates, and they sometimes have like those calls in there, he sees 25% of pavilion members being quote on the bench.

You know, that's their way of saying unemployed right now. So 25% of pavilion members. Currently out of a job looking for a job. Isn't that crazy?

Raul: Especially because Pavilion is probably not the average group of, of, of SaaS people [00:03:00] or like the average group of, of people working in tech. And um, I would assume that they're probably, I don't know if they're necessarily better, although that might be the case, but they're probably more employed and better connected, which typically should lead to a higher employment rate.

Toni: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, so I mean, and I think I know two or three or four others that have now been. Struggling to get it, like solid talent. People, people that I respected, worked with, did fantastic work with. Um, and they've been now struggling for what, 12, 18 months to lend a gig. Yeah. And that's pretty crazy, right?

And, and, and that kind of makes you wonder, well, how did, how did this thing actually happen? Right?

The SaaS recession
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Toni: And what, what I think is frustrating is, you know, we've, we've all been totally understanding of, oh, there's a SaaS recession. All of those, that's where all of those companies are going bust. That's where all this VC money is kind of disappearing to thin air.

Um, but what [00:04:00] people are forgetting is that there were teams in those companies that then had to be laid off into a market of sars companies that were all failing. So, you know, kind of people are forgetting that, that that little nuance there. Right. So I think it isn't only VCs and founders getting. Uh, aft, you know, in this, in this recession, I think it's also a lot of careers being burned in the process, right?

And, and I think there's like an overall thing and you know, we we're gonna get into some of those, some of those examples, right? But very quickly, those cvs, they look like a piece of shit when you think about it, right? So let's just say you as an exec joined an early stage team, took on a bunch of risk, uh, the team didn't go anywhere.

And then it looks like, uh, because it's, it is gonna be a random logo, right? Kind of. The team didn't make it, the company didn't make it. So, you know, who's that company. Um, so you don't get any plus ones from having a great logo. Uh, but also maybe [00:05:00] the stint was only nine months, 12 months, because that's when they filed for bankruptcy, right?

So it's, it's really not your fault. So then you're out of a job for maybe three to six months. You find another job, maybe similar story because you had to, you couldn't afford to be super picky. Like, oh no, I'm only gonna go for the C-level safe bat. Now. They couldn't do that, so they had to go for, you know, whatever was in front of them.

And some of them just said, double bad luck. Uh, join another team that, you know, AFT again didn't work out again. It was again, the company. Sure. And you know what those folks are. Probably the most humble that, that I know, that also say like, no, you know, maybe I could have done a better job and maybe kind of that would've helped the company overall, yada yada.

We all know though, that that's probably not the reason why the company failed in the end, right? So now, now, now they're there in the, in the job market, having two shitty logos on the, on the cvs, two short stints with like time in between and everyone looking at this like, uh, can't hire this. You know, forget about it.

You know, let's, [00:06:00] let's just go to the next one. Right. I think this is the relative for a bunch of really, really strong people out there. And it's kind of getting worse and worse actually because, um, you know, on the one inside, AI is here, all the playbooks are changing, everything is different now. Um, and on the other side, those cvs with every month going by, kind of, they kind of get worse and worse basically.

It's like, wow. Now it's. Been seven months and you've been on a quote unquote sabbatical. Now it's been eight months and you're consulting now it's been nine months. You know? You know what I mean? And it's kind of that, that, that's I think, what's out there. And that's what's leading to. A bunch of really talented people not getting employed.

Um, and, uh, and they're kind of just looking, looking for, for answers and solutions right now. And I think today we wanted to talk about that a little bit

Raul: and, and to be really concrete. So I'm working with three companies right now who are hiring a head of sales, one of which I'm really, really deep into supporting them with that as well.[00:07:00]

I can not remember a time in the last seven or eight years where there was such an inflow of people looking for a head of sales role, specifically people who are actually way too senior for that role. So yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're talking people who had like managing director experience. We're talking people who've had five to 10 years of CRO experience looking for ahead of role.

And I'm having them, I'm doing interviews with them, I'm doing background checks with them and I'm asking a man like. Are you sure this is what you want? Like this is quite a, is this not a step back for you? And obviously they find a way to talk themselves into that and everything, but you can see, and you can feel when you talk to them that they're used to a different package and they're used to, to kind of a different role and kind of different things.

And some of them have switched over to, well, let's just build something new. This is kind of a new start and they're quite happy to get something. But I am seeing that and I have never seen so many CROs applying to a head of role that I kind of have to deal with right now.

Toni: Uh, I mean, this is [00:08:00] one of the things we wanted to get into further down, actually kind of, I'm calling it taking the more junior role, right?

Kind of that's the CRO stepping down to VP or even hat off. And I think to a degree, it's kind of a double-edged sword, right? Because it's kind of better than nothing. Like having a job is better than not having any job. But then the hiring manager, a k you in this situation, ooh, you know, it's kind of a yellow-ish, maybe orange, almost reddish kind of flag, right?

Kind of. And if you do go for that person, you kind of always have to wonder, well, um, is he maybe continue to looking, um, until he finds a job that, you know, matches what he was actually kind of looking for and kind of then you sit there again with the same problem. Right? So it's kind of a, it's kind of a double-edged sword actually, I think.

Um, so. You know, would this be one of our recommendations, what people should be doing? I don't know. It's, it's a, it's a difficult one to tell, right? I think the, the, the issue that, you know, when I talk to some of those folks, uh, [00:09:00] that are looking for a long time, that I see like a lot and it's, you know, I don't wanna say it's heartbreaking, but it's pretty kind of serious actually.

Job hunting and mental health issues
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Toni: It's actually mental health issues. Oh yeah. Right. Kind of. If you have been an overachiever for your whole career, um, you know. Uh, you know, let's just say the, the sales example. You've maybe been an SDR and then an ae, then a director, then a vp, and maybe even a COO kind of, you run the whole thing. You had crazy packages, you've been running on 120% all the time.

You've been maybe even neglecting and sacrificing some of your personal life to kind of optimize for, uh, for your job. And suddenly you'll find yourself out of one for like a year or two. Um, that masses with you, that masses with your hat. Right? And the, the thing is not only that, hey, you know, it's kind of, you know, relax, just chill, kind of focus more time on.

On, on you, go for a run, spend some time with your kids, kind of do that [00:10:00] stuff. It's really difficult for those, uh, overachievers to do that because they're like constantly thinking, no, I should be looking for a job and, you know, I can't relax until I have a job. And then when they do get a job, uh, it's like, oh no, uh, can you start Monday actually.

Um, and it's, it's, it's really messing with them. Uh, it's really messing with them and. I, I'm not sure if I have like great advice, but trying, you know, one, one guy that I've talked to and, you know, he knows the job and is kinda super happy with it. What he did actually was like, no, you know what? Those three months, that time, I'm actually not going to even try and look for a job.

I'm just gonna, you know, that time I'm just gonna take to relax. It's my, you know, on purpose, chill time and, uh, I'm gonna do all kinds of healthy things in there, uh, and having fun and not killing myself by thinking about getting a job all the time. And then when those three month wrap kind of, he was starting to focus on finding the job, right.

And I think, um, that helped him to be super, [00:11:00] like at least healthy. Right? And I'm not sure if that helps anyone, but, but try and find a way to. Uh, not constantly be job searching because getting all of those nos, they're also on top of this messing with your head.

Raul: One thing that's also really missing, and I just talked about kind of level, the highest level, which is, um, the CROs are applying to head off titles and everything.

So in one company I'm looking for a head off and at the same time also for an account manager. And funnily what happens is that kind of this whole thing trickles down where I have four account managers, people applying that were previously heads. Mm-hmm. And um, one of them actually told me, and.

Obviously this is kind of just an interview. You don't really know the person yet, but it was very clear that they were struggling with the fact that they, and I thought that they were great candidates for ahead, actually. Um, they couldn't get ahead of role because all those CROs were taking those roles and that was really taking a toll on them.

It's like, man, like I used to be like, I'm a. 10, top 5% head of [00:12:00] sales and in this kind of role. But now I have to compete with all these CROs and all these VPs and, and ex founders and, and whatever people are there. And all of a sudden I'm like quite packed in the middle all with them because obviously when you, when you can get a CRO and you could get them and why, why not take them?

And it kind of trickles down to account executives who are now happily taking. DR jobs over not having a job at all who were previously making 300 K and now maybe breaking 120 or 150. Yeah. But I think I really like the, the way that your, your friend there did it because, um, one of the things that I really have learned more and more over time, especially now in the last year and a half, is that.

You really have to break from this, uh, end-to-end connection of input and output in your mind. And that really can open up your, your kind of your world to lots of things. Now, making that very concrete, what do I mean with that? So applying for a hundred jobs, looking at it as a funnel, I. And then kind of getting five offers is a very input, [00:13:00] output driven ends to means relationship.

Right? And that is typically how a lot of execs and people from the SaaS world are thinking. And they're kind of brute forcing their way through that, uh, application funnel to get to a new job. But what about if you flip the script and you're like, well. Maybe this is the time to finally take three to six months to actually network, which I haven't done for, for the last, uh, five years.

'cause I never had the time and just go to every damn event there is and, and there is lots of them. And, and just go to like every lunch to, with a person that I, I never got back to. And, and see what happens there. And, and funnily enough. Obviously, it's not always so clear what comes from what, but uh, basically I've been writing that for the last year and a half, and that's been probably much better than if I had just kind of went through a funnel, uh, view, which is like talk to those people in the last 10 years.

I got to meet, like go to events, see what happens.

Going into consulting
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Toni: But I think it, that, that also has a different, different perspective to it that you're kind of not mentioning here. Right. Which is basically, and I see this many people do. [00:14:00] Uh, start some kind of a consulting gig, consulting work kind of thing. Right. And I kind of have two perspectives on this.

One is, I think you should do it. I. In general, you should just do it. Like totally go and do it. Do it for no money, do it for free. Do it, you know, maybe charge a little bit, but don't act like this is your main and only gig. Right? Kind of simply do it to keep your mind sharp, do it to get introduced to people and you know, good things will come from you going out and, and, and doing some of that.

It will also. I think the other thing, if you've been on the bench for two years, it's like, well, this whole AI thing happened in the last two years. Kind of does this guy have any clue about the new playbooks? And if you're doing some consulting work outside, you know, it's a much easier story to tell also in the interviewing process that you're kind of keeping your mind sharp and you have your eye on the ball and you know what's happening and you have maybe a good AI story to tell.

Right. The other thing is, which is kind of what you've been doing, um, is really [00:15:00] going hard and all in on the consulting thing. And, and, and I think it's just not for everyone. Yeah. Um, it's, it's difficult to pull this off. Right. And I think if you are good at being a consultant and, uh, getting into those, uh, into those jobs and into those roles and into those projects, I.

I think, um, you know, immediately the power balance is also different. It's like, oh, you know, could we, could we maybe hire this guy full time? Like I, I know he has like five other clients he was doing, you know, working with, but like maybe we can snack him. And kind of that, um, attitude, that situation, um, that used to be true when you were in a job, uh, and, and you know, someone tried to hire you out of it.

You immediately were like so much more desirable, right? Kind of this is what everyone is, uh, is experiencing when they're like available on the job market. It's like, well, I don't really have anything so de facto, I'm the less attractive. Girl or less attractive boy or something like this, right? But by doing consulting full-time and if you're actually good at that, [00:16:00] I think that that power dynamic changes immediately.

But also being a consultant, you know, not everyone is good at that stuff. Like I'm, I'm, I don't think I'm a great consultant by the way.

Raul: Add, adding to that one concrete reason why. That's also the fact, and I've seen this also firsthand, is. When you're a consultant, naturally you have to, your rates are much higher than what your at, what your wage would be if you kind of average it out to 40 hours a week, and that has to be the case because you pay your own insurance.

You kind of have to do a little bit of saving and all that kind of stuff. So there's legitimate reasons for that. Yeah. But when you come from that point and you're kind of doing an okay job, um, in the minds of, of kind of the company, it is that much more attractive just from a cost saving perspective to be like, Hey, we're working with this Tony guy.

Uh, we're paying him 10 K for 20 hours a week. Why can't we just get him over to 40 hours a week and get him, get him full time and paying him 15 or 12 or whatever. Yeah. And, um. That is a different starting point than, we don't even know this Tony guy. He wants a job with us, right? So, uh, in one scenario I'm saving money Now, psychologically, I think that makes a big difference.[00:17:00]

Um, but I think this is kind of a very good route for a lot of people in there. The difficulty, and that's what you were gonna go into, is that so. I have been really in this consulting game for 10, 11 years now. And so the one thing I can tell you is if you wanna do it really well and you want to actually go all in is consulting is a skillset of its own.

You're not naturally a good consultant because you are good at A, B, C. You have to kind of add the skillset of a on top of consulting skill sets, which you're hopefully developing to then be able to do that well. And uh, obviously you could always do consulting, whatever. Um, and maybe in the case of doing it for free.

Which, going back to that, that was a great point. You made very much underestimated in my opinion as well. Um, I haven't talked about this very much, but I've had three companies in the last year and a half that I worked with for completely free. So I haven't made a single year off of them. Maybe they've invited me for dinner sometimes or whatever for different reasons.

I like the team. I just thought that maybe something might come out of that. And, uh, some, sometimes I [00:18:00] got real great introductions to other companies. Sometimes I learned some interesting things, but that was something I did quite consciously when I thought that, that I really felt like that was a good thing to do.

Um, in every single case, something great came out of that, and it was not always clear and necessarily upfront what that great thing would be.

Toni: So we kind of tapped on some of the kind of obvious ones. Maybe there's some good advice packaged into this. I wanted to take us a little bit more to the non-obvious ones.

Leave tech behind?
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Toni: Um, and the first one on our list was actually to, uh, consider leaving sars and tech behind. Just walk away, just kind of, I know all of this is cool and, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, I know you're into that kind of stuff. But maybe now's the time to just leave that behind and do something else.

Uh, a good friend of mine, um, you know, worked at a big tech company, jumped into another gig, didn't work out, got kind of canned like really quickly, and is now selling a luxury object. Hmm. [00:19:00] Like, you know, um. Is doing a, like, those are really high ticket luxury objects, so it's not real estate, but something else.

And it's, um, and you know, he's doing fantastically well with that stuff. Right. Um, another friend of mine basically kind of said straight up, Tony, I'm done with all of this SARS scaling bullshit. I'm just over it. Um, I wanna, you know, build a family. I want to have a nine to five. I wanna have a secure job, you know?

That is actually kind of what is really important to me. So I'm gonna look specifically now for a corporate job, like jumping into, you know, here in in Denmark into big pharma. Um, and there's a couple of adjacent kind of industries here and doing a fantastic job in doing Ally that, right? And, and one of the conversations I had with him specifically was also like, okay, so I'm now mid and thirties.

Jesus. Yeah. A mid and thirties. Um, and, and the question you need to ask yourself to a degree is like, how many more SARS gigs do you have in [00:20:00] yourself? Like, how, how many more times will this happen? Right? Because. I don't believe that this super hot startup, uh, happening in 10, 20 years from now that they're looking for this 50 something year old guy to come in and do some stuff.

I just, I just don't believe that. Right. So, you know, I think there's a, there's a, there's a half life on, on how, how long and how often you can be a tech executive. Until you need to step out of that. And it's a little bit like being a professional soccer player or something like this. Like you know, in your early thirties kind of this thing is over, right?

And then there are only so many jobs to be a coach or a moderator on tv. Kind of, you need to look for your second leg of a career. Well, in big corporate, you don't have that issue like, you know, here in Denmark and Vu Nordisk. You, you can, you can die at your job. Like totally. This is totally, like, this is totally trajectory kind of being 65, retiring in, you know, in this company is [00:21:00] totally part of, you know, how this company works out and um, you know, you can do the jump in 10 years, you can do the jump now and kind of leave tech behind.

Um, but still, you should still listen to this podcast though, like that's still, that's still pretty important. That,

Raul: that was a great catch again. Um, so I mean, corporate is obviously one route and, and there is, corporate is such a big field, so there are so many different things to do there. I. I know for me, you probably, hopefully will never catch me there, but that's for different reasons.

Not necessarily kind of the career reasons and everything, but hey, who knows like what's gonna happen, uh, and, and how corporate is gonna develop. But I know so many people for who this would be a great thing and maybe just like listening to this and being like, okay, let's really think about this, um, is a good input there as well.

But then going maybe into a different direction. Right? So obviously like Sauce is just a business model. Right. And, and tech and, and startups are so much more than just sauce in themselves, even though obviously sauce is a big one. Um. Just going into kind of like adjacent models, like, uh, or adjacent industries that [00:22:00] kind of have something to do with that.

Private equity and VC roles
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Raul: I've seen one person, uh, uh, that kind of did a great transition to private equity. Mm-hmm. Um, and sure this is maybe not open for everyone. So if you're an early stage, uh, SDR kind of for, with two years of experience, maybe not going to happen. Um, maybe yes. Uh, I wish you the best, but, um. This can be a lane for some people, right?

So this can be very attractive. It's about the skillset that you've acquired of scaling. It's about the skillset that you've acquired of like growth and, and even like cost efficient growth, but then also cost at all, uh, growth at all costs. Seeing all that through, through different times, um, bringing different departments together.

This is not just interesting to a soft startup. So just, I think what I would like you to do as a listener is just like, maybe think a bit more abstract about your skills and, um, I've always said this, like I believe that like. This idea of, oh, I've had 10 years of SaaS experience. I'm good for a SaaS company.

It's just bullshit. And it's the same way around for a recruiter. This is why, for example, when I look for people to hire, I don't actually [00:23:00] care very much the whether they've been in this field necessarily. What I care about is their abstract skills. I. And what I care about is what is the job? Hey, the job consists of doing these 10 things.

Scale this, do that, bring these people together, lead these people. Where could I find this? If you put this into an abstract, some people that I know are maybe not even only, uh, CROs could be great fits for I. Consultancies, uh, vc depending on what kind of vc, obviously project A is, is open to many, many different things.

But there's others that are looking for operating partners that are looking for head of platforms and private equity as well. And those come, those industries still pay very well and are very attractive, and funnily enough. Can then be a jumping, uh, step again, a jumping stone again, or step stone again for, uh, whatever kind, uh, of company comes after.

So this can be a much more fluid affair than, oh fuck, I'm, I'm done with sauce. Now I have to go into boring old culprit, even though I don't want to.

Toni: Yeah. So I think that's a, that's a good one. I think kind of jumping to the VC private equity world for some people [00:24:00] listening it sounds like. Okay, cool.

Thank, thank you, Rahul. I'll tell my two friends that maybe could do that. Um, but you know, I think another perspective on this is also for everyone that's listening, that's maybe not looking for a job because they are having a job and maybe they're hiring manager. I think there's also a little bit of a.

Mindset change that, you know, might need to happen, right? So as, as we've, and I mentioned this in the intro as we've all recognized that there was a sales recession, that things went south, um, and it had a problem on your customer acquisition costs and had, you know, an impact on, you know, the companies that we were selling to and all of that jazz.

It all had an impact on the careers of the people that worked in those companies that suddenly weren't your customers anymore. Right.

Rethinking CV evaluations
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Toni: And, uh, looking at those cvs and judging them simply by saying like, ah, you know, two short stints and out. I think that is, it's not only not fair anymore, but [00:25:00] it's also just not, not adjusted for reality.

It's not, it's not a good way to scan those cvs. I guess that's what I'm actually trying to say. Right. They're still like fantastic talent out there in kind of whatever shape or form, but using this as the main way, um, of, of scanning, you know, someone's worth by seeing. There were kind of a couple of short stints.

I don't think this works so well anymore. Kind of, that used to work extremely well. 10 years ago. I, I, I used this a lot and I probably have kind of used this also in the last couple of years. But I think, um, you know, especially for that period, you know, 22, 24, um, I think you should be a bit more careful in, you know, kind of figuring out how to judge those, those LinkedIn profiles, um, when you are going out and, and potentially looking for someone to hire.

Raul: That's a big one. That's a very big one. I mean, so. I know this is hard for recruiters in general, but I'm very firmly a believer that cvs are severely overrated and you just don't look at better things 'cause you don't know how, or like you're, [00:26:00] you're just not looking outwards to other things, but you're completely right that CVS matter much less than they did before and.

If you flip the script even a little bit more, this is a huge opportunity. So obviously change like what things mean and how to interpret things. Oh, a two year sabbatical was a bad thing. Well, maybe it's not actually a bad thing at all, but flip the script on what these things mean. But then also, okay, so there's good SaaS people out there in the market right now.

Let's link this to another topic. So, uh, one of the advices you can find when, when you go, when you went through a bad breakup, right? One of the first things that people actually told me is, uh, think about also the 'cause you want her back and you want all that stuff and whatever. Like think about the stuff that you didn't like about the person.

Right. Think about the stuff that maybe actually wouldn't have worked out. Like don't over romanticize. And maybe this is something that if you're a SaaS person also can help as well, is like think about the stuff that you didn't like about SaaS and there is tons of downsides to SaaS as well from the working hours to the whatever party culture if you're not interested in [00:27:00] that, to maybe the colleagues and whatever.

I know this is certainly the case for me, so I know the things that I, I know by now what I really didn't like about the last thing I did, which is about like a lot about morals and about the kind of people I work with and, and all that stuff. Now going back to the recruiter. If you want to get SaaS people, well maybe you have to understand what kind of stuff they didn't like and be that much more attractive in what you can offer.

Right? And that way you can maybe actually snack some people if you're open to them and, and be whatever they're looking for, which they were, didn't even realize before. They were not. So to make this very concrete, very concrete, if I have you as a sa, CRO, right in front of me, maybe part of the, the, the, the selling that I will do, uh, to, to get you to come to my company, um, as a recruiter.

We'll have a lot to do with finding out what you didn't like at your last job and, and making clear that this is not the case here. And, um, when people are waking up more and more to this, I think that this will kind of a nice, be kind of a nice transition as well. And maybe this is the case for your Novo Nortis person.

Right? So for your friend who went into [00:28:00] corporate is he realized what he didn't like. He realized some of the risks of staying in the field for too long and he was looking for the exact opposite.

Toni: And I think that.

Conclusion
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Toni: Is a great place to end the show here today. Role. We talked about a bunch of stuff actually, which, and all of this has to do with.

Fantastic people, like, honestly fantastic people. People that, you know, I can, you know, put my hand into fire for, I'm not sure if this translates well, um, that are, you know, struggling to find a job. I think those folks aren't the law. And, you know, if I believe those stats that I'm seeing from, you know, pavilion and so forth, and then that's certainly kind of what it is.

So what we are really hoping for is that. Some of this helped you folks to, you know, maybe, you know, find, find a different perspective to what you're kind of struggling through and or, um, giving some of the folks that are listening, that are hiring people to try and kind of see, um, you know, that this might kind of change their approach to whom they're selecting into the interview process and so [00:29:00] forth, right?

Because things have certainly changed. Raul, thank you so much. Uh, thanks everyone else for listening. I hope you have already hit subscribe. Otherwise, please do it right now. Yes, it's free and it actually helps us, you know, build the show and grow the show and, and stay

Raul: unemployed for longer.

Toni: Yeah, exactly.

And on this topic, if you want to support the show by being a sponsor, talk to a bunch of go-to market operations leaders. Uh, please let me know Tony at Atif ai. Otherwise, have a great day. Bye-bye everyone. Bye-bye.

Up next: Jacco's new playbook
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Toni: Next week is going to very, very special. We are going to leak Jacco's. New playbook in the age of AI so far.

He's only talked about this in a couple of closed door events, but I actually got my hands on his detailed step-by-step talk track to go from what's happening and why. What are industry's leaders doing, and what can you do? Concretely today, in order to build towards that, those [00:30:00] pockets are melting away and they're getting smaller and smaller.

Email and spam filters are improving. More and more ads are getting more expensive and being less so actually recognized by people. There is a desire from people to buy things. How do those two things actually work together now? Well, the way people are purchasing things has changed a little bit.

Raul: Having control over the funnel is something that gives them a lot of comfort.

When the shit hits the fan, we'll take one week, we'll just. Sit down for a week, do nothing else, and do calls, and then we'll be fine. Well, now I'm supposed to have the customer bring me new customers. Just is a loss of

Toni: control. First of all, how can you get to the point where you stop thinking about deals and customers and start thinking about users instead?