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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.167)
Hi. Did you? I'm on my second cup of coffee and I've only been up.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:02.149)
Hi.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:10.935)
An hour maybe?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:12.411)
Nice. So you're feeling good and jittery.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:14.542)
Um, I'm feeling extremely tired. I went to bed at 5 a.m.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:18.585)
Holy moly, poor thing. Okay, we'll catch you out.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:21.038)
Don't feel too bad for me just yet because it was my own doing.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:27.381)
that happened.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:29.486)
Do you watch reality TV?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:32.812)
Of course I do. It's like pretty much all I watch.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:34.734)
What has been like, I don't want to ask like your favorite show, but like the one that's like stuck with you the most.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:47.195)
I mean, I don't know. It depends because I have different reality shows for different moods. I love Love is Blind, which is horrible, but I love it. I used to be real like I watched every City of Real Housewives. I've laid off of those a little lately because I have been watching more British television lately. And so I just went through. I just in the last like three weeks went through 17 seasons of Taskmaster, which is
Taina Brown she/hers (01:06.753)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:15.052)
17 seasons?
Becky Mollenkamp (01:17.019)
Yeah, I mean, now it's British shows. So there are only like six to 10. I think there are 10 episodes, seasons, but still that's like 170 episodes. And I love that one because it's really mindless and fun and funny and it makes me giggle. So I don't know. like I have different those. I'll put those like three sort of as my tops. What's yours? And I'm going to guess you just pinched something is why you didn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:25.589)
Episodes in like three weeks.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:38.132)
Okay. I did just binge something. Melo and I just binged something last night, which we had not planned on doing. And I will preface this by saying I'm not really a fan of reality TV. Or let me rephrase that because I often have to remind myself that something like House Hunters is reality TV, right? It's just a different kind of.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:00.793)
Yeah, you're not, I'm guessing you're not a fan of like the Real Housewives-y drama filled kind of. Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:06.091)
Yes, yes. I walk away from watching that feeling triggered and just feeling dysregulated all over. And that's kind of what happened last night. When we finished watching, I looked at my phone and it was 5.01 AM. And I was like, fuck, how did this happen? Wait, I know how this happened. We have absolutely no fucking self-control. And then I couldn't sleep for a while because I felt traumatized.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:13.711)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:36.137)
by what I had watched. I watched or we watched the Ultimatum Queer Love on Netflix.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:36.338)
my God, you gotta tell us what you watched.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:44.955)
Oh, I've watched it. Is there a new season? Or is there a new movie? I've watched
Taina Brown she/hers (02:47.548)
you have watched it? No, no, no, we just had never seen it before. And we were just scrolling through and we're just like... The whole thing. Reunion episode and everything. Like we just sat in the same spot for fucking nine hours.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:56.517)
and you watch the whole season in one sitting.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:07.451)
Did you guys at all during this, before you get into telling me about it, because I want to know what you felt about it and everything, and I have watched it so I can participate to some degree. It's been a while. I watched it when it first came out. But when you guys were watching this nonstop, did you check in with each other and say, like, should we keep going or did it just happen where you just were both so into it you couldn't stop and you just didn't say anything?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:28.473)
We didn't say anything. We were just both into it. And I honestly had no intention of watching because I'm old. I like to watch my Jeopardy every night. And then afterwards, I'm just like, whatever's on is on, whatever. I might do a little bit more work. I might watch. I might clean up. I might read. So Mellow usually...
Becky Mollenkamp (03:30.116)
Hahaha, so he was a tour boat.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:43.419)
I'm gonna hug you.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:56.219)
If I don't have something specific I want to watch after Jeopardy, Mellow will just put something on. And usually just as background noise, because she likes to have the background noise on while she's doing stuff.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:06.491)
But she's generally in charge of choosing what's on the TV after Jeopardy. Unless you have a specific... Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:12.373)
Um, I'd say it's about 50-50. Yeah, unless I have something specific I want to watch, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:16.709)
So she put it on and you didn't know, did you know what you were getting into? Did you know what it was about?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:21.736)
I knew what it was about because I remember when it came out, it was still during the pandemic. And I remember seeing a lot about it, like on social media. so I knew what it was about. And I didn't think I would get wrapped up. like halfway through the first episode, I was like, hold on a second. Who is this person? Why are they like this? And we don't often do this, but every once in a while, we'll put something new on.
just thinking, this will just be background noise or whatever, and not fully expect to become really engaged in it. And then 10, 12 hours later, we're just like, feel like we got hit by a train without ever being like, do you want to keep watching? Should we keep watching? We'll literally just be like, OK, next. OK, next. I'm going to use the bathroom. Can you pause it? Or I want to get a snack. Can you pause it? And that's kind of what happened last night.
And yeah, again, I couldn't sleep for a little while, even though was already morning, because I just felt so triggered. And this is why I don't like watching these types of shows, because it feels extremely traumatizing to watch. It feels like getting wrapped up in somebody else's trauma and in their conflict.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:39.375)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:50.93)
I don't know how to come down from that afterwards. It takes me a while. I don't know how to detach myself while I'm watching it. And so it takes me a while to come down from it. And there's also the part of me that's like, why would you willingly put yourself through this? Why would you choose to blow up your relationship on an international stage?
Becky Mollenkamp (05:58.148)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:19.227)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:19.44)
for everyone to watch and then expect a good outcome at the end. Like I honestly don't like, and I know that might sound a little bit judgy, but I'm just like, I would never, never do that to my partner. I would never put them in that position.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:39.067)
Are you the kind of person who has the, I want to be famous as anywhere on your vision board?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:49.711)
I don't want to be famous, I want to be known. I want to be known for something specific. I think people who want to be famous, usually they want to be famous for whatever.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:53.211)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (07:03.358)
And I think that to me is a big part of these reality shows is and I think it's a real problem. Is now I saw something that was a while back but like kids when you ask them what they want to be so many of them now just say they want to be famous not want to be a famous athlete I want to be a famous.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:10.7)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:19.246)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:23.131)
whatever, they would be famous because of the world that they're growing up in with this nonstop exposure to social media and reality shows and YouTube and everyone has their own brand and their own platform. And so like I think and most of the people on that show are fairly young. They're younger than us. They're in their 20s. Right. So they're a bit of a generation removed into like maybe they might be young millennials or they're older, Jen, whatever. But I think that they were raised differently.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:23.31)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:39.298)
Mia.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:48.835)
Gen Zers, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:52.441)
where they have more of that. I have a feeling they don't have a conscious remembrance of a time before social media and before reality shows and all of that. So my guess is a big part of it is just wanting to be famous at any cost. And there is a cost and it is really sad. But then there are some people on some of these shows that I think they don't seem like they just wanted to be, I could be wrong. I might be naive. I think some of them go into it genuinely because they think the.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:52.772)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:59.959)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:05.185)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:14.89)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:18.523)
premise of the show is helpful. Like love is blind. Like maybe they'll really find somebody to be with, or they're actually wanting to get married or in queer ultimatum. They're just really at that place with their relationship where they're like, I don't know what else to do. But I do sort of feel like the bulk of it is, yeah, they're willing to at any cost, even the cost of a relationship, even the cost of people being cruel to you on social media, they're willing to do it. Which is
Taina Brown she/hers (08:22.156)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:32.844)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:41.62)
Yeah. Yeah. It is sad. It is sad. And I don't know if you remember the show Jerry Springer. I'm pretty sure you do. But I just remember, like that show was on every day, every day. So that's a lot of fucking content. And I just remember every time I would see commercials for it, just being like, how naive are these people to think?
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52.073)
yes I do. I know you know Jerry.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:57.593)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:09.685)
Like you know what show you're coming onto. Why would you think? Like what do you expect to happen?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:13.819)
Right. Or the Maury Povich. The Maury Povich, whose baby is it stuff. was a lot. There was a whole bunch of that. They were kind of the godfathers of this reality world that we live in, weren't they? And yeah, I don't know. I think even then it was like the the lure of fame is so appealing to some people that like I think they just have blinders and like or they just think it's worth it. I don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:18.951)
Right, right, like who's the dad? Yeah, like.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:36.233)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:40.609)
That makes me so sad because I feel like it's a misplaced desire for wanting to be known, for wanting to make an impact. I know it's not like that all of the time, but I think sometimes it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:56.057)
No, but I do feel like it's why we have the person in the Oval Office right now that we do. I feel like he's exactly like, he's as much a part of that culture as anyone. He's like the ultimate representation, I think, of what that culture looks like, where I just want people to worship me to, or not even like, cause maybe they're all narcissists that go on these shows then, cause Trump's clearly a narcissist. So maybe it's like some degree of narcissism where it's like, I just have to have everyone looking at me.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:00.499)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:06.334)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:14.25)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:20.575)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:25.199)
I don't even care if they're looking me for the right reasons or the wrong reasons. I just want them looking at me because I honestly think Trump in a lot of ways gets off on detractors as much as anything else. Like, you want them and so yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that was why you want to talk about it because of the triggering part of the show or, but like I totally understand it.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:25.31)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:34.102)
yeah, for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:38.236)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:41.779)
mean, a little bit, yeah. I mean, it's a very layered experience, right? And even now, just thinking about it and talking about it, I feel like a lot of feelings, like lot of emotion coming up, witnessing so much trauma play out on a screen.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:45.915)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:54.619)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (11:00.207)
So are your emotions more about the experience of reality shows and how traumatizing it is and why people do it? Or is it more of the parasocial relationship of, I really feel for that person inside of this show? Or is it both? I'm curious.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:15.837)
think it's both. I think it's both, right? Because like one thing that I've been thinking about for a few weeks is there's a new show called Extraction. Have you heard of it?
Becky Mollenkamp (11:24.944)
Is this the one where the people on the outside get to decide whether you leave or not of this reality show? Yeah, I have some previews. Yeah, so it's basically like I, we, my husband, well, it reminds me of my husband and I watch Alone. That's another reality show that we really love. These are people who willingly choose to go out into the wilderness because they're all survivalist people and they are all alone in their own plot of land. They each get like a couple miles.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:28.57)
Yes, yes, like your family members. Yeah. It's like the Hunger Games.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:49.891)
And they have to survive in like the tough Alaskan or Canadian like wilderness in the cold in the winter, hunt their own food, build their own shelter. They come in with like 10 survival items and that's it. And they have to survive and whoever survives the longest wins, but they choose to go. choose, they get to choose when they tap out, when they leave. And it's really interesting just watching this study of like what being alone really does to you. You know, the questions that come up of like, would I do that? Could I do that?
Taina Brown she/hers (11:54.535)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:08.615)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:18.298)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:18.489)
We are always like, we'd be out on day one. But so it's like that show, except the horrible, like sick, twisted part of this is those people are living that life. And then their family members on the outside living a cush life have to decide, does that person leave? And the preview I saw was like somebody saying, get me out of here, push the button and get me out. And the person, their partner, whoever it was saying like, I think that they'll be okay. I think they think they want to go, but they'll be all right. And like choosing to keep somebody in that horrible.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:31.378)
Decide.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:43.654)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:47.183)
circumstance when they don't want to be there. The loss of control on that show upsets me a lot. Like it feels like it's removing consent in a way that I don't feel comfortable with.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:47.993)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:56.684)
Yes, absolutely. That upsets, upsets me. but what also upsets me about shows like that, and I'm also thinking about shows like Survivor that's been around forever, right? The Amazing Race. Yeah, things like that, that.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:14.26)
season or something yeah no you're gonna talk bad about amazing race I love that show okay go ahead tell me why I shouldn't
Taina Brown she/hers (13:21.893)
I mean, the Amazing Race, I think, is on a lesser scale, right? But specifically shows like Survivor and Extraction that make survival a competition. Like, I think that is so antithetical to my values of just like, we're all in this together. Like, we can get so much further if we work together versus like, no, I'm in direct competition for you. And...
Becky Mollenkamp (13:33.871)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:53.093)
Either I survive or you survive. Like there's this buy-in that you have to have. Like you have to have that kind of a mentality. like, and I've seen Survivor, like I've seen a few seasons way back when, when it was still fairly new. Yeah. And I wasn't that into it, but I was like, sure, it's entertaining. But, but also just like seeing the sneakiness like.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:55.482)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:07.845)
first area.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:21.002)
manipulation, the way that you have to like...
Taina Brown she/hers (14:27.706)
cut people, like it's so cutthroat and that just outside of just like saying something like, it makes me uncomfortable. Like, no, that like literally hurts my heart to like see people choose one, choose to be in that position. But I think sometimes. Choose to be in that position without really weighing the cost of that and then having to confront the cost of that.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:28.901)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:53.819)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:56.896)
in the situation and just being like, fuck, like this is actually harder than I thought it was going to be, or this is not how I intended for this to happen, but this is how it has to happen now. Like that, I just feel like that is so, like it's such a metaphor for what is wrong with our society, for one of the things that is wrong with our society where we're put into these systems, into these structures that
force us to compete with other people for survival. Like it's, that's basically what it boils down to, capitalism, because it's all for money.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:32.421)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:38.619)
Yeah, I mean, almost every one of those shows, that's what it ultimately comes down to. That might be, you know, it's interesting you're bringing that up because first of all, the other thing that makes me think of as you're talking about it is like you don't see shows in underdeveloped nations where they're struggling to feed their families and now they're turning it into entertainment where it's like, look at these people struggle. Right. It's such it's the worst.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:02.37)
That's a uniquely American thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:05.037)
It's first world country kind of problem, at least, because I use that term only because that's a term that people know, to be clear. But, you know, in other developed nations or more developed nations, you know, even in England, they have shows similar. They're probably modeled. I don't know, maybe some of them are the other way around. And Japanese shows, there's a lot of Japanese shows that are very competitive. They might be a little different with survivalist. But it's just very interesting because it's like we're taking this experience that there are people on this planet who actually have to like.
I don't think anyone in Gaza would be like, oh, let me watch the show about these people living on an island starving, because that's so funny. That's the reality. So it does feel very tone deaf in that way, too, of there are people in the world who really going through these things. So it's interesting when you bring that up. like, that might be one of the reasons I didn't like Survivor all that much, but didn't watch alone. It feels a little different, though, because it's more about just for most of those people, they're there because they want to test their survivalist skills.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:37.431)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (16:44.183)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:53.622)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:01.238)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:02.309)
thing they do and they're really wanting to see how long can they go and how much can they push themselves. But I can also see how it could be maybe at over the same way. do like, I watched the Australian version of that show just really quickly too. And they were really good about talking about the indigenous people from those lands and honoring those people. Whereas the American one did not, even though they were in Canada, clearly indigenous folks that lived in that land and did the same thing. But the other thing that it made me think of, hold on, now I'm losing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:07.594)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:18.453)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:34.937)
I'm quiet because I'm hoping this will get edited out. Because you were talking about... Hold on. I have to go back and watch this to make sure. Shoot.
the other thing that it makes me think of and that I think is why I've been really interested in Taskmaster lately on the UK channel is because though it's a competition show, but it's all comedians and they're not competing for any money. It's just like a fake trophy thing. And the competitions are all things like the silliest things like how far can you throw this egg without it breaking or, you know, like just silly little meaningless trivial tasks.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:11.199)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:15.653)
that are just for fun and it's just to laugh. And it feels so much better that, and I just, think maybe this is my own evolution where I'm like, I haven't had no desire to watch The Housewives in months and months since before the election. I feel like I've just noticed this drastic shift in everything and the way I'm showing up since the election where it's like things that prior I was kind of like, like I could watch those women and just be like, my God, how pathetic, whatever. It makes me feel a little better about myself.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:17.609)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:44.404)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:45.141)
but I'm not that like superficial. Now I'm like, I can't even stand to look at it any of kind of stuff because I think it just is sort of triggering of like, fuck, that's why we're here. These are the problems we have. And so I'm like, my escapism now is becoming more like things that feel so much lower stakes and like are just and unhappy. Like, why can't we have a show where the competition is who can give away the most money in the most creative ways or like
Taina Brown she/hers (18:56.851)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:03.473)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:11.091)
So, great.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:11.919)
Who can, I don't know, whatever, like, why can't we, who can make someone laugh in the most unique way? Who can make someone's day, like, find a stranger and make their day the best day it could be? Whatever, like, why don't those shows, if they exist, why don't I know about them? And like, why, what is it about our appetite for this other shit? I guess it's that same thing that I had with The Housewives. It's like, it makes me feel better about myself, which is gross. Like, and we've talked about this before on the show, and I, is, it feels bad to admit that, but I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:25.768)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:29.501)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:35.291)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:40.389)
That's really why I've watched them because it does make me feel a little bit better. Like, at least I'm not that artificial. At least I'm not that gross, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (19:42.352)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:48.144)
Yeah, I feel like I went through an evolution of how I felt about myself. Or not an evolution, but a process of how I felt a lot of different things about myself while I was watching that. I think, yeah, as I was watching The Ultimatum, Queer Love, I think for a lot of it, felt...
Becky Mollenkamp (20:03.745)
as you're watching the queer freedom.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:12.572)
better about myself and my relationship. And I was just like, I would never do this. And I remember specifically telling Melo to pause it a couple of times and being like, first of all, we would never be on a show like this. But if we were, I would never do this to you. I would never talk about how I could see myself spending the rest of my life with this other person in front of you.
right, even if it's an experiment. Like I would never hurt you that way. But I think at the end of it, I didn't feel good about myself. I felt gross. Like I felt like I had participated in the blow up. I felt like I had participated in the destruction of people's lives. And there was so much toxicity and so much trauma that
these individuals were having to process in such a short amount of time and in such a public way that I felt complicit. I felt really complicit. And I think that's why it still is like affecting me the way that it is because I feel incredibly guilty for participating in that.
And...
Part of me, like, I mean, I, when I fixate on something, I get like obsessed. Like afterwards, I have to like research it and see all the follow ups and all of that. And I wanted to do that this morning after we watched and we went to bed and I was like, but I couldn't, I couldn't like bring myself to do it. Cause I was just like, I don't want to keep participating in this. Like I want to know that these people are okay, but
Taina Brown she/hers (22:12.449)
I feel like going and researching that is still participating in the toxicity of that process, of that system.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:27.791)
It was just, it was so much. It was so much. And I had people that I was rooting for, you know, obviously, like, and I wanna say that, like, I wanna be really clear that, like, I was, like, fully participating in the drama, like, and they're still a part of me that's like, no, I definitely had my favorites. And this person I did not like, and this person I really wanted them to find their happiness. I really liked Xander.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:28.317)
It was.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:46.457)
Xander?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:55.06)
And I started out liking Yoli and then about halfway through I was like, wait, this is messy. Like, what are you doing? Absolutely saw through Vanessa from the very beginning. She just...
Becky Mollenkamp (23:12.163)
It's hard because then you're like, start rooting. You almost start rooting for bad things to happen to her because it feels icky. And there is that part of you going like, can't. It is this like separation of what you have. You have to sort of remove them as people and see them as characters, which is sort of what they're signing up for. But also, I don't think there's any way any anything I've ever read about people who have been on reality shows and that especially these ones that have really hit the zeitgeist that
Taina Brown she/hers (23:17.676)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:27.918)
People. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:41.935)
have not had fallout from it. Just like I didn't fully know what I was signing up for. Because you can think you know and you don't. And the same goes for celebrities who are like famous actors who are wanting to be known for a craft, but still fall into this public consumption thing. in their case, it's like, I didn't really want to sign up for that. I just want to be my craft.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:45.057)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:49.613)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:55.041)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:06.273)
But that's not part of the package, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:07.387)
And that's part right and the fallout of that and it does make you sort of like wonder if I lived in ancient Rome Would I be the person who had shown up for the you know gladiator battles right the things that to watch humans being devoured by lions if I lived in the time of Salem witchcraft trials would I been the person who showed up to watch the burnings like It has a bit of that even though the difference here being these people did consent to being on
Taina Brown she/hers (24:18.967)
the Coliseum fights.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:33.141)
Yeah, that voyeurism.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:37.307)
these shows and they consented to the voyeurism. So there is something that's obviously different, but it does have a bit of that feeling. And it does in some ways, if you sit back and reflect on it, does leave you, especially in the ones that get really icky and messy. It feels a little different when it's a show that doesn't get like that. You know, like I don't have any problems again with Taskmaster watching these comedians. This is what they do. They entertain. It's entertaining. But something like this where someone blows up their relationship or comes out looking like a villain, even though, you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:52.767)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:04.001)
Yoli or whoever, you know, they're all still full humans. And, and editing can make us look, you know, all of that. So just like leave you with a little like that participation piece of how far at like, if I extrapolate that out, what else might I be willing to watch if there was enough public feeling of, well, it's okay. Right? Like,
Taina Brown she/hers (25:07.595)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:19.733)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:26.687)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:27.235)
In a different time, might I have thought it's okay to watch this witch burn because she's a witch, right? Like, in a different time, would I have thought it's okay to go watch this person being consumed by whatever, lion or whatever happened in the gladiator things, because, you know, that's what they decided to show up and do it or whatever. I don't know. It's interesting to reflect on that. And that is the stuff that can make me feel a little like, ugh.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:32.308)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:44.818)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think to map that onto like current reality TV, know, one thing I kept having to remind myself is...
I mean, I fully believe things like Real Housewives, a lot of that. I don't know if I would say a lot, but I know some of it is scripted. Like some of it is just for the cameras, right? But there's also a lot that happens.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:15.291)
Oh, sorry, was gonna say, think it's definitely, when it first started, maybe a little less so, but by now, I think it's like, there's a whole lot of it, yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:19.626)
Yeah, because that's what the ratings, that's what gets the ratings in. I think for something like The Ultimatum, right, it took me back to real world and road rules, right, on MTV, which was also like kind of like the godfathers of like reality TV, right? That experimental style kind of production. And I remember going to an event
Becky Mollenkamp (26:38.607)
That was awesome. Yes, definitely.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:49.405)
This was after like the first or second season of Real World. And I remember going to an event for like high school students who were getting ready to go into college and they had a couple of folks from season one of the Real World there. And I remember one of the things that they just kept reiterating is like, yes, we are accountable and we are responsible for a lot of the things that happened.
But one thing you have to remember is that there's post-production, there's editing, and the producers have power in how the narrative plays out. And so even as I was watching last night, The Ultimatum, Queer Love, I had to keep reminding myself of that. I'm like, yes, people are making mistakes and people are being messy, but how much of this is...
because of post-production? How much are we not seeing? How much of the story are we not participating in? Are we not privy to that could help contextualize some of these situations? And
I mean, obviously I don't know the answer to that. I think, and I feel like that also just like complicated things for me because there's the judgy side of me that just like wanted to relish and just being like, well, that person's a villain and this is the person I'm rooting for, you know? And that was like that understanding of like post-production and
crafting a narrative, right, for the public is what was like checking that judgy side of me that I did not want to be checked during certain parts of the show. I... Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:49.211)
but the show's designed to do that to you, right? It's manipulative. All of the choices are meant to entertain. They bring all of this like, you know what, actually, can we push pause real quick? I have to go to the bathroom so bad, I don't know if I can do that. I'll be right back.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:02.63)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:08.965)
My dog is being so needy right now. She's making me crazy. I don't know what her deal is. All right, so I'm gonna try again.
She's right here. I don't know what you want.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:25.999)
But those shows are designed to do that. They're designed to manipulate you emotionally to get involved. I love that you brought up real world because that is such a, I think it's such a really great case study and all of that. Because the first season in New York and I watched every real world for a long time because I was the peak age. Like I was a high school senior or junior when the first real world came out. So like it was so up my alley. And the first season was really designed to be more of a documentary, right? It was like, that was really, there were things, it was these,
Taina Brown she/hers (30:27.876)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:46.116)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:52.141)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:55.823)
documentarians who were like, we're gonna see what it's like when you bring these disparate folks together right at a time when there were a lot of things going on. I think it was right around the time of Rodney King and there was just a lot of stuff going on. So that'd be really interesting to bring all these young people together and see when you have all these disparate life experiences, what happened. But it was really meant more as a documentary than like an entertainment show per se. And then the second season really changed things. That was the season in LA.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:18.797)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:25.051)
where Tammy and David, remember them so well, having these folks living together, he pulled this blanket off of her while she was only wearing her underwear and no bra and was supposed to be kind of this jokey thing. he ended up getting kicked out of the house. And it turned, it took, it added a level of drama that hadn't been there before. And she went on an abortion and was talking about that. And like,
Taina Brown she/hers (31:50.36)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:53.947)
There was a lot of stuff that got elevated in a new way. And then by the third season when you had Puck, gross Puck and Pedro who ended up dying of AIDS and was, you know, very outspoken about all of that at that time. Like each season, I think they started to realize, oh, the more there's drama, the more ratings there are because the first season, the second season had much higher ratings than the first. The third season, I believe had the highest ratings ever when they had Pedro and Puck and the fighting that they had and all of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:01.877)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:16.757)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:22.538)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:23.455)
And I think they started to realize the more we amp up the drama, the more people respond. And so it became less of a documentary and more of like it. You could feel the manipulation that was happening to make more of that drama. And they've all learned that more drama equals more ratings. so now, like everything, the music choices, the way they light things, the way they do like the conversations and the way they what they choose to show and not show all of it is meant to.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:32.147)
entertainment.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:42.219)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:53.475)
stimulate inside of us an activated response. Because when we're activated, we go on social media and we talk about it. We tell our friends, you seen this thing? You know, we engage in conversations about it. So it does exactly what they want it to do. And it is kind of gross when you think about that you're being emotionally manipulated. But that's what all of entertainment is, right? It's purposeful sort of manipulation to get you to elicit a response. It's just something that
Taina Brown she/hers (32:55.069)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:02.176)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:15.273)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:19.839)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:21.209)
different that happens when the players involved are themselves showing up as Yeah, and you wonder because like you want to believe they're not, but then like if you hear the stories coming out about Love is Blind, the amount of alcohol that they supply these candidates or these contestants with, right? And the ways that they're locked off from the world and they don't have their phones and like they...
Taina Brown she/hers (33:28.339)
Yeah, being manipulated as well, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:44.051)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:46.767)
they do things to manufacture situations in which people will behave differently. And it does then, like, even if they voluntarily have chosen to be there, even if they're chasing fame, there is some degree of like, how much do they really understand about what they're getting into and what the ramifications are of that? And so how much consent is really there? And to me, I guess the big thing is when you get into this being like, it doesn't feel consensual. That's when I start to get like, in the same way I wouldn't watch
Taina Brown she/hers (33:51.217)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:01.289)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:05.438)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:15.205)
horn that wasn't consensual. It feels like it starts to feel really icky. Yeah, that same thing where you're starting to feel for people and then you feel gross for yourself of participating in this thing that doesn't feel entirely consensual. Where I wouldn't do that in other parts of my life, why do I allow it in entertainment? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:16.933)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:21.382)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:28.102)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:33.031)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:37.691)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that third season of The Real World and how it just, it did feel drastically different from season one. Like it was like a completely different show. Even like the production value of it, completely different.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:47.801)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:55.259)
even between the first and second, but that second season to me is such a transitionary season. I think it's such an interesting study if you watch those three seasons of the real world and that arc of how it shifted from one to two and then by three, it did, it became a completely different, and I think the model of what we now see for so much of reality TV.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:00.156)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:09.188)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:12.977)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:17.905)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. you know, and one thing that I'm constantly like thinking about, not constantly, but that I do think about often is what I feel differently if at the beginning of the show, at the beginning of every episode, there's like not a disclaimer, but a notice, like these individuals have consented to participate in this process.
but there's a lot of editing that happens and you don't know the whole story, right? Like, would that make a difference in how people respond to the show? Would that make a difference in how people engage with the show? Like, would that hurt engagement? Would that help engagement? Would it feel as gross to me to have watched nine episodes back to back all night?
you know, after seeing like they're like, I don't know if you remember Aussie.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:27.173)
from that first season.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:28.966)
from the ultimatum queer love.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:31.855)
I don't know, I was just looking up the cast when you brought this up to be like, do I remember all of them? I don't know if I remember.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:33.828)
Yeah.
Aussie and Sam, and Aussie was the one who was really conflict-avoidant.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:43.033)
Okay, I kind of remember them, yes. Now I'm looking at their picture.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:45.435)
And there was one scene where Aussie and Sam are having, it looks like they're having brunch with one of Sam's friends and they get into a little conflict and Aussie leaves, which is what they normally do. And then the friend, not the partner, the friend goes to check on them and they full on have like a triggered.
emotional response. Like it's not even like avoidant at this point. It's like, like, and Aussie at this point is 42 years old and they have a triggered response from childhood trauma. And I'm watching this and I'm like, is there a therapist on standby? Like, because this, this is highly, this is a highly dysregulated person right now in need of
emotional and mental support like and
Becky Mollenkamp (37:49.167)
I do remember what you're talking about now. And I see that kind of stuff on other shows too, where yeah, there is a point where you start to go, like it just puts it in your face how gross it is that you're watching someone like, because I wouldn't, although listen, I just was about to say, because I wouldn't want to be in someone's therapy session for a reality show, but there's a wonderful show on HBO called Couples There, or on Showtime.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:01.964)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:16.507)
couples therapy that I love and am riveted by when I watch it. But that's, it does feel different because there is a therapist that's trained in the room and I've listened to, I understand why she's doing it and her hesitations and the boundaries they put. And this doesn't feel like there's boundaries or support. It's like the story to the wolves where it goes back to does feel a little bit like the gladiator thing, like good luck.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:33.364)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:39.168)
Yeah, yeah, think I would have had a different experience if the couples were, if part of like their contractual obligations were to also sit with a therapist every week. You know what I mean? Like I think that would have made a different experience. I think that would have felt a little bit more ethical, but I think the whole thing just kind of felt unethical to me. And I also just want to say like,
Becky Mollenkamp (38:59.343)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:09.474)
There's in reality TV, I also see and understand that there are real moments of connection and there are real moments of growth that people go through. And I think that's also part of what draws people in, right? Like seeing people have these relational emotional challenges and seeing how they navigate them and rooting for people to like.
deal with it in a healthy way and come together and work out their shit, whether it's a romantic relationship with a partner or a friend on The Real Housewives. And so I think none of this is to discount that. None of this is to invalidate that because like you said earlier, like I think today, these are real people having real experiences. For us, it's incredibly manufactured. But for them, while they're living it, these are
real experiences that they're having, regardless of how scripted or not it might be. There is that component to it where it's like, I don't want to completely invalidate someone's experience through this because it does require a certain level of vulnerability, I think, to choose to blow up your relationship on such a public stage.
However, also foolish that might be, think, but I don't know. just, feel, yeah, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:43.097)
And there can be things that people can learn from it, I suppose, right? So maybe there is something to it, but I do think it's valuable to reflect on these shows and the why that they exist and the why we watch them and what it says. I think, I guess like most things, comes down to making more conscious decisions about what you want to watch and what it says and what that means.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:00.33)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:11.019)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:11.641)
You had that experience, I think so many of us have, of just getting sucked into something. And then you're sort of no longer, that's why I was asking, were you two checking in and saying, do we wanna keep going? And it's that thing that happens where you sort of now are no longer consciously even making the choice to watch it. It's manipulated you into, it sucked you in this way that you're like, now you're not even a fully conscious participant, you're just there.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:26.84)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:36.751)
And then you kind of come out of a trance, like at the end of it, like you experience where you're like, you almost feel like, okay, what just happened? Where am I? like, and then reflect on it. And I think that to me, the biggest thing is like, and this is not to say I haven't figured out or that you do obviously, right? Like these are real time thoughts, the messiness of it, but like, can we all make more conscious decisions about what we're participating in and what's really, what it's really about, like what's involved in that? Like once I think about,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:39.112)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:43.027)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:51.492)
Not at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:04.411)
that and then make an informed decision. Do I want to be a participant in whatever the thing is, whether it's that ultimatum or love is blind or something else entirely, but just like, am I really consciously thinking about what was involved in making the show before I sort of consent to watching it? And I don't think much of those are. And I think that's where that warning. I know it sounds like a trigger warning and people have thoughts about like we've gone too woke with trigger warnings and stuff, but like I think they're valuable and.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:18.961)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:32.527)
Maybe that's what it is. Like in the same way that they'll tell you if they're smoking or nudity or adult language in shows, if they could just give you something more about like the producers. This is a reality show and here's what it involved, right? Like they were they weren't allowed to use social media. They were kept away from people and news, whatever, for three months. They were provided therapy. Just some highlights for us to kind of make a decision about. Do I feel good about how the show was produced? Because we honestly, most people have no clue.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:46.963)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:02.365)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:02.435)
It's hard to find out because they sign NDAs. They're not allowed to do this for a reason. And so it does make it difficult to make informed decisions.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:05.309)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:10.834)
Yeah, yeah. I feel like I just need to grieve after watching that. And outside of just the gross part of the consumption aspect of it, I just feel like I need to grieve. And I'm just like, is there...
Becky Mollenkamp (43:18.542)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (43:40.581)
Right now, for me, like, I'm not casting a moral judgment on people who watch reality TV or people who participate in it. Like, I think I would not choose that for myself. Like, I would never choose to go on reality television like that. Like, I'm just like an incredibly private person. And so the idea of that just freaks me the fuck out. And whatever people's reasons are for doing it, like...
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and just be like, well, they made the best decision that they knew to make with the information that they had. Like, that's what I have to remind myself of. I don't think I'm at a place where I've.
dealt with some of my own trauma enough to be able to participate in the reality TV spectacle. But I do understand that it's a part of our culture. I don't think it needs to go away. I just think it needs to be done better.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:31.941)
Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:53.509)
for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:55.076)
I think it for sure needs, because even last night while we were watching and they were like going on dates with their trial wives with like family and friends who had no idea what was going on. And then all of a sudden you're just like having lunch and having to explain to your parents or to your best friend that, I'm living with this person for three weeks. And the partner that you've known me to have for the past four years, we broke up. And the friends are just like, wait, what? What?
Becky Mollenkamp (45:19.311)
Yeah, yeah. Same happens on Love is Blind where they show up and are like, yeah, I'm engaged to this person. I was gone for a month. You didn't know what happened and now I'm engaged. And the parents are supposed to just be like, awesome, right? Like, and you want to support your kids. That's similar with a lot of these shows. Yeah, it's really hard. And I can see where if you haven't dealt with your own trauma, it can be very triggering on lot of these things. Yeah, I don't know that there's any answers to this, right? Except that it's just, think to me the biggest thing is again, that conscious like,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:40.675)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:48.973)
at least examining it, even if you don't change your behavior right away, examining it. And I do think that's kind of where I got with The Housewives, where it's like the more I examined it, I felt less good about being a part of that world, because my viewership counts towards that ratings and the choice to make or not make more of those shows. And it's like, is that really what I want to participate in? There's other ways for me to have mindless entertainment that could feel better. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:50.723)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:03.158)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:08.143)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:17.749)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I, I... Yeah, yeah. And when I say I don't feel like I've dealt enough with my trauma, this is after years of therapy. Like, it's not like I've never been in therapy. Like, I'm still working out my shit after years of therapy. And, what was I gonna say? Fuck.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:19.14)
Not that I'm perfect.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:45.377)
I don't know if it matters how much therapy you have though, because sometimes these things still like still trigger you, especially I think the fact that it's reality is different to than when you're watching a fictionalized version of something that could trigger your trauma. Like I still think that can be triggering, but often it allows you to separate it to be like, this isn't a real story. You you can kind of give yourself that space from it where you don't necessarily get with reality shows. So it makes total sense. It would still be triggering. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:50.454)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:58.259)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:09.313)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:12.788)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:13.915)
All right, we have to wind up. What are your final thoughts?
Taina Brown she/hers (47:17.6)
My final thoughts are I hope the people on the show, I hope that they're happy. And I mean that with all of my heart. It was just really sad to see so much heartbreak and conflict, unnecessary conflict. And I think that's one of the things for me too, I remember what I was gonna say, is that it just feels like a waste of time.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:24.761)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:45.984)
Like, I'm just like, this just feels like a waste of time. Like, why? Like, what's the purpose here? Like, how is this helping to get you to where you need to be? And I understand some people do this shit because they want to be famous at any cost. And I'm like, okay. But at some point, like, if you weigh the cost and you feel like it's worth it, and then that's what's making it not a waste of time for you, then by all means, you know? But I think...
For me, one of the reasons why I always also shy away from reality TV is just like, just feels like a waste of time to me and I don't like wasting time. but I do hope that.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:25.051)
I think I love wasting time. that's probably why I like that. I'm just like, how can I find things that allow me to fully check out of my reality? So let me watch someone else's reality and then I don't feel like I'm in my reality anymore. And when things are hard, that's what I want. So I get it. But I also do think it's really worthwhile to think of.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:45.46)
Yeah, Yeah, they're real people.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:46.043)
The that those are real people that I'm using to check out of my reality and I'm not necessarily great.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:50.876)
Yeah. Yeah. I do hope they're happy. I hope that they got what they feel like they need now, today, right? Because that was like, yeah. No, I hope they have the day that, you know, respects their humanity and their dignity. Because this was like two years ago.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:00.953)
I they had the day they deserve. No, I'm kidding. I know.
Yeah, I hope they got what they wanted out of it as well.
Yeah, that's probably and I'm the same way I dig in after I watch a reality show or while I'm watching it, I often find myself going like, are they still together? What are they doing now? Like I'm trying to find their Instagram and stuff. And I think part of it is because I want that permission. Like, OK, they look they're happy. They're like they ended up together. Right. I feel like I need that permission to feel OK about the voyeurism. And so sometimes that does help to sit there with your phone and be like, OK, so where is Mal now? OK. Mal's great. They're still together. OK.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:28.638)
Yeah, it's okay that this happened.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:40.36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:42.245)
Like I can feel a little better about this. And it's harder when you discover that they've locked down their account or they've been really public about how upset they are or that things didn't work out or that they're angry. And I'm like, shit, now I feel gross. And that's often when I find myself checking out where I'm like, okay, I don't feel good about this. sometimes it does actually help to look them up.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:56.116)
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so last question, who were you rooting for? Like, was there a couple you were rooting for the most?
Becky Mollenkamp (50:04.923)
I don't remember rooting for a couple. just remember Xander and my feelings of like feeling really sad for them and being like, I just wanted that person particularly to find happiness and knowing that I can't remember if the relationship they were in being like, that's not the right one. I think I wanted them to end up with the person that they had the fake relationship with. Or was it, maybe that was it. But I think it was less about.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:26.866)
The Troll Wife,
Becky Mollenkamp (50:32.557)
Yoli and more about I think I recall being like, I didn't think the person that Xander was with appreciated them. And was it's been a while since I watched it. But I feel like that's why I remember feeling like it's just rooting for Xander because I just felt really sad, like about where they were in the whole thing. How about you?
Taina Brown she/hers (50:37.661)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:47.76)
Yeah, yeah. I felt the same way about Xander. I was really rooting for the younger couple though, like Lexi and Ray. And I think just because I think part of it had to do with how young they were. I was just wanting them to just like get it together. And at the reunion, they were one of two couples that were still together.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:57.903)
Mm, okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:06.267)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:18.034)
But then there was like, I'll see you in Sam.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:18.234)
was the other.
Yeah, because I think they're still together if I just looked on their Insta.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:23.822)
Yeah, and it's interesting because they're the only couple who didn't form any real romantic connections with anyone else. And they are the only couple that I think is still together. shortly after the reunion episode ended, there was a little note on the screen that was like, Lexi and Ray decided to break up after the reunion episode. So, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:32.196)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:49.211)
So they were the only, yeah. So only one couple survived it and they are still together.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:52.493)
Yeah, you have a couple that didn't form any romantic entanglements. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:55.791)
What a shocker because guess what? Most of us can't forgive that kind of thing even if we think we're above it. So alright, I have to go because I gotta go pick up my kid and my dog needs to go out. But this was very interesting.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:05.859)
Yeah, thank you for holding space for me today.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:09.307)
I love that you're having like, it's like, got to process all of this. Like, that's how I usually feel after those shows, too. So I don't know. You have given me some food for thought. does make me think I'm just going to keep watching my taskmaster and like, even though I already watched that's a great one, too. I don't like it, especially international. I love that show. And I feel like maybe it's because it's only a single episode. So you can't get that same arc where you're like, yeah, if we knew more about their lives, it would probably be just as bad. Anyway. All right. Well, thanks for doing this with me.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:12.345)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:20.035)
Yeah, I'm just gonna go back to House Hunters.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:34.485)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Bye.